Guest post by Steven Goddard
The Washington Post reports today:
An undersea volcano erupts off the coast of Tonga, tossing clouds of smoke, steam and ash thousands of feet (meters) into the sky above the South Pacific ocean, Tuesday, March 17, 2009. The eruption was at sea about 6 miles (10 kilometers) from the southwest coast of the main island of Tongatapu an area where up to 36 undersea volcanoes are clustered
Besides the unusual feet to meters conversion in the quote above, I found it interesting because the SST maps show a warm anomaly in that region, and extending off to the east. Is that anomaly a result or coincidence?
http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.html
How much influence do volcanoes have on local climates?
We know that the Antarctic Peninsula (advertised as the fastest warming place on the planet) is a volcanic chain which has seen recent activity.
Noted Antarctic expert Eric Steig tells us that Volcanoes under the ice can’t affect climate on the surface, 2 miles above! This is indeed true and interesting, because CO2 on the surface reportedly can affect the melting of the basal ice, two miles below.
According to some of the best AGW minds, increases of 0.0001 atmospheric CO2 concentration may be more powerful at affecting localized micro-climates than are 2000 degree volcanoes.
In another volcanically active area, the Gakkel Ridge, which was shown to have eruptions last year, the possibility also exists for localized warming. Here is a schematic of the Gakkel Ridge sea floor:
However in that case there is the claim by oceanographic experts that it is impossible for the sea ice above to be affected due to stratifed water layers and thus making the released heat “unable to communicate” to the surface.
Perhaps that is true, but does that stratification remain in a steady state? And is such an inability to “communicate” heat from the depths a feature of our oceans globally?
OT but RC in the “Other Opinions” columm has no link to WUWT or CA (both winners of best science blog), whereas both WUWT and CA have links to RC…. a real giveaway
A Pacific view of the anomaly…..
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/sst_weekly.gif
From the above image it looks like the centre of maximum heat is located around 35 degrees south. Tonga is closer to 20 degrees south, and in this vicinity it looks like a cool anomy persists.
It would be difficult to draw a conclusion here !!
Benjamin P. (17:41:11) :
Without claiming that for sure that the ice at the poles are melting because of volcanism
For all the folks that are claiming that the ice at the poles are melting because of volcanism, I implore you to look at a picture of some of the volcanoes in the cascades. Mt. Rainer for example. Here is an “active” volcano, that is covered in thick glaciers. There is appreciable heat flow here, but the glacier is doing just fine. Also, Mt. St Helens erupted on May 18th, 1980 that left one hell of a crater. You may recall not too long ago Mt. St. Helens started erupting again. At the same time during this active eruption, the glacier in the crater was continuing to grow.
your arguments are irrelevant.
The claim of melt was that heating from below helps the ice slide faster towards the sea. The ice always slides to the sea ( gravity, think water)unless it is in a basin. This is a physically viable hypothesis, and cannot be refuted by glaciers in basins on land.
In addition, intense heat sources concentrated in one place will create conditions for currents and convection that would not be there if these intense heat sources were not present. The only true attitude towards volcanism in the oceans and the world climate is to acknowledge that “we do not know”, it has to be studied.
I’ve just been looking at the pictures on the link Ron de Hann posted. Tnx
Does anyone remember Surtsey? What effects did that have?
Benjamin P. (17:52:21) :
Pofarmer (17:31:57) :
The heat from the core has to travel through ~2900 km of mantle to reach the crust of the earth. A solid mantle which convects at a VERY VERY slow rate.
Ben
A solid conducts? So it is not convection but conduction. Still it is true that heat transfer will be slow except in places where magma rises (illustration above).
It would be interesting to see a calculation of this conduction rate ( if it were mostly iron for example it could be fast) as 4 km down the ground temperatures are in the 50C range ( south africa mines). Ocean bottoms are at that level, and it would be interesting to see how much heat is taken away by the convection currents at the interface.
@anna v (23:33:10) :
No, the solid mantle convects. Plastic flow. It happens in the crust too and will form some pretty sexy rocks called mylonites where there is very intense plastic flow. There is conduction too, but the main mechanism, well the most effective mechanism is for mass/energy transfers in the earth’s interior is convection.
And ocean bottoms are not 4 miles down in crust…in essence they are the surface of the crust.
The geothermal gradient, or the rate at which temperature increase with depth, is (on average) ~25C/km. The thermal conductivity is pretty low for rocks.
Also, with respect to glaciers in Antarctica, I’ve seen it postulated on this site that the reason west Antarctica was warming was due to the volcanism, I was merely giving an example that demonstrates it’s a bunk claim.
Ben
What needs to be brought into the picture here is you folks are talking about a highly active volcanic area ( http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/fire.html ). Its not like it has been quiet for a long time and just kicked up activity. The area is known for volcanic activity and has quite a few large earthquakes and events yearly. If there is contribution to the local ocean temp I believe it is a fairly consistant thing in the area and not a first time event for this particular volcano…
http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=0403-04=
I think that you would also find that most of the energy transfer will be directly to the local atmosphere, though it might be possible for ocean certain ocean currents to ‘run warmer’ for a short period of time until the heat was dispursed, but that may already be a factor in the shallow warm current in that area.
http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/Releases/?releaseID=902
Tim L: You wrote, “There is a huge magnetic anomaly going on there as well, a hole in the earth magnetic field.”
Are you telling me that the magnetic anomaly is causing the anomalous SST warming over the 20th century? If so, cite your resource please.
Slightly OT (but not too far)
Has anyone done work on deep ocean volcanoes? In what ways do they differ from their atmospheric counterparts?
Even to the casual observer the immense pressures and lack of freely available Oxygen 4 miles down must make them behave quite differently.
Anyone point me to a paper or two?
Pamela Gray (18:23:35) wrote: ” Not my students, not on my watch…”
My first brush with your writings was about bats, Pamela; and I have read every comment by you I have found since with dedication and delight (including getting warm on a cold night…). The post the above quote was taken from just confirms that you are some lady. They were lucky kids… and I suspect those you teach now are also. And we are lucky, too, being able to share your insights and puzzlements here.
“pkatt (00:08:00) :
What needs to be brought into the picture here is you folks are talking about a highly active volcanic area ”
Problem is most of the people who live in these areas just do not know where they live. Naples (Pompei anyone) and Istanbul are two cities with 99.999% of the population totally unaware of the geology beneath their feet!
Goreacle’s footprint chucks Darwin with computer models.
…-
“Scientists predict frigid cold has killed most mountain pine beetles in Alberta
By John Cotter, THE CANADIAN PRESS
EDMONTON – Frigid temperatures this winter have killed off more than 90 per cent of the mountain pine beetles in Alberta forests, new scientific data suggests.
But experts won’t know until this spring if the death rate is high enough to actually stop the destructive bugs from continuing to spread to new healthy trees.
Computer models run by the Canadian Forest Service on Thursday indicate that 95 per cent of the beetles have died in southern Alberta and the mountain parks because of the harsh winter. About 90 per cent have died in northern Alberta.”
urlm.in/bxyq
Benjamin P. (17:41:11) :
Without claiming that for sure that the ice at the poles are melting because of volcanism
For all the folks that are claiming that the ice at the poles are melting because of volcanism, I implore you to look at a picture of some of the volcanoes in the cascades. Mt. Rainer for example. Here is an “active” volcano, that is covered in thick glaciers. There is appreciable heat flow here, but the glacier is doing just fine. Also, Mt. St Helens erupted on May 18th, 1980 that left one hell of a crater. You may recall not too long ago Mt. St. Helens started erupting again. At the same time during this active eruption, the glacier in the crater was continuing to grow.
your arguments are irrelevant.
So, your argument is that volcanic heat released under water or ice has the same affect as volcanic heat released horizontally or even above ice. I don’t see ice on top of the “plume”. Heat rises, matter above warms.
Interesting AP video of steam explosions with the undersea volcanic eruption.
Undersea volcano erupts near Tonga
Video of undersea volcano eruption
Apologies – the first link was the video, last link to a still image.
See also numerous clips under Tonga Volcano on YouTube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crust_(geology)
The crust of the Earth is composed of a great variety of igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks. The crust is underlain by the mantle.
What is solid is the crust. Rocks. It conducts. It is the level on which oceans and continents lie.
It seems that the mantle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(geology)
Due to the temperature difference between the Earth’s surface and outer core, and the ability of the crystalline rocks at high pressure and temperature to undergo slow, creeping, viscous-like deformation over millions of years, there is a convective material circulation in the mantle[3]
does convect.
But our interest is on the crust where the interactions with the oceans lie, and there it is conduction that will transfer heat unless there is a direct lava flow.
sorry
my last was a response to Benjamin P. (00:05:55) :
Tonga heat spot?
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/MartinGAtkins/Tonga.jpg
Never mind about global warming–too many theories and not enough evidence. What about tsunamies? That, to me, is a possibility that can affect us now.
Valentine deFrancis
For who is interested in further information about the Tonga Eruption, including eye witness reports of burning birds falling from the sky! and a video link, have a look at Dr. Erik Klemitti’s web site: http://scienceblogs.com/eruptions/
Also look at: http://volcanism.wordpress.com
Further scientific research on undersea volcano systems:
http://insciences.org/article.php?article_id=3511
Rex Alan:
Evidently J. Hansen was among the “Al.” after Fairbridge et Al.
SOLAR-PLANETARY-CLIMATE STRESS, EARTHQUAKES AND
VOLCANISM
R.W.Fairbridge
Excerpt:
“On a long-term basis, it seems likely that solar activity
Might trigger volcanism-through solar-induced climatic changes
Which could lead to variations in planetary spin rate and hence
to increased crustal stress and seismic and volcanic potential.
Furthermore, the changes in solar activity and in the earth’s
crustal stress may both be independent results of common
planetary tidal parameters. The same planetary configurations
that appear to modulate solar activity might lead to variations
In the earth’s axial tilt, wobble, and/or spin rate
which have climatic correlations. These variations would in turn
lead to enhanced crustal stress. Therefore the planetary
Influence on crustal stress in the earth may come both from
Solar induced meteorological effects on spin rate and axial
tilt and through direct planetary tidal effects on the
earth’s rotation and tilt.”
We acknowledge valuable discussion with R.W.Decker,
J.E.Hansen and J.E.Sanders. Work was supported by NASA
Leif Svalgaard (12:24:31) :
I have better things to do than play stupid games.
“EDMONTON – Frigid temperatures this winter have killed off more than 90 per cent of the mountain pine beetles in Alberta forests, new scientific data suggests.”
Things like pine beetles are probably why you see a change from pines to oaks when climate changes. I seen it see it expressed as a “change from cold loving pines to oaks as climate warmed” when discussing things like pollen from lake sediment samples over thousands of years. Maybe the reason for the change isn’t so much the pine’s “love” of cold as it is the beetle’s lack of tolerance for it that causes the pine’s demise and replacement by hardwoods when the climate warms.
Anyhow, if it turned out that infestations of the trees by these beetles happens in natural cycles that track natural climate variation, I wouldn’t exactly be “gobsmacked”.