Science Shock: U.K. Met Office is “Inventing” Temperature Data from 100 Non-Existent Stations

From THE DAILY SCEPTIC

by Chris Morrison

Shocking evidence has emerged that points to the U.K. Met Office inventing temperature data from over 100 non-existent weather stations. The explosive allegations have been made by citizen journalist Ray Sanders and sent to the new Labour Science Minister Peter Kyle MP. Following a number of Freedom of Information requests to the Met Office and diligent field work visiting individuals stations, Sanders has discovered that 103 stations out of 302 sites supplying temperature averages do not exist. “How would any reasonable observer know that the data was not real and simply ‘made up’ by a Government agency,” asks Sanders. He calls for an “open declaration” of likely inaccuracy of existing published data, “to avoid other institutions and researchers using unreliable data and reaching erroneous conclusions”.

In his home county of Kent, Sanders charges that four of the eight sites identified by the Met Office, namely Dungeness, Folkestone, Dover and Gillingham – which all produce rolling temperature averages to the second decimal place of a degree – are “fiction”. Sanders notes that there has been no weather station at Dungeness since 1986. The Daily Sceptic is able to confirm that none of the four stations appear in the list of Met sites with a classification from the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO). The Met Office directs online inquiries about Dover to the ”nearest climate station” at Dover Harbour (Beach) and provides a full set of rolling 30-year averages. According to Met Office co-ordinates, the site is on Dover beach as the Google Earth photo below shows. It seems unlikely that any scientific organisation would site a temperature monitoring station that is likely to be submerged on a regular basis. Who is running this station on the beach, have accurate records been kept for 30 years and why is it not listed under the 380 sites that are given a WMO rating?

Of the 302 sites quoted, Sanders notes that the Met Office “declined to advise me” exactly how or where the alleged ‘data’ were derived for these 103 non-existent sites.

The practice of ‘inventing’ temperature data from non-existent stations is a controversial issue in the United States where the local weather service NOAA has been charged with fabricating data for more than 30% of its reporting sites. Data are retrieved from surrounding stations and the resulting averages are given an ‘E’ for estimate. “The addition of the ghost station data means NOAA’s monthly and yearly reports are not representative of reality,” says meteorologist Anthony Watts. “If this kind of process were used in a court of law, then the evidence would be thrown out as being polluted,” he added.

In its historical data section, the Met Office lists a number of sites with long records of temperature data. Lowestoft provides records going back to 1914 but it closed in 2010. Since that date the figures have been complied on an estimated basis. The stations at Nairn Druim, Paisley and Newton Rigg are similarly closed but still reporting estimated monthly data. “Why would any scientific organisation feel the need to publish what can only be described as fiction?” asks Sanders. “No scientific purpose can possibly be served by fabrication,” he suggests.

It is possible that the Met Office has a reasonable scientific explanations for the way it collects temperature data. Temperature calculation is an imprecise science but concerns have mounted because the data are being used for overtly political purposes to promote the Net Zero fantasy. Alarmists claim that very small temperature rises can make a large climatic difference. To whip up global fear, temperature figures supposedly compiled with an accuracy to one hundredth of a degree centigrade are quoted from sources such as the Met Office and NOAA. To date, the Met Office has been silent over the gathering storm surrounding its figures and the organisation refuses to return the calls of the Daily Sceptic.

Sanders refers to another large temperature measurement problem at the Met Office surrounding the WMO classification of its sites. Almost eight in 10 sites are rated in junk classes 4 and 5 with possible “uncertainties” of 2°C and 5°C respectively. This means, notes Sanders, that they are not suitable for climate data reporting purposes according to international standards which the Met Office was party to establishing. Only 52 Met Office stations, or a paltry 13.7%, are in Class 1 and 2 with no suggested margin of error. Actually, mark that down by at least one. In his travels, Sanders pointed out the possible heat corruptions at Class 1 Hastings and this site has now been dropped to Class 4. The Met Office is said to have confirmed that the default classification for stations is set at Class 1, “unless manually adjusted”.

The Daily Sceptic has investigated the poor siting of many Met Office stations with obvious heat corruptions making a mockery of attempts to measure the naturally occurring air temperature. Sanders lists the problems of many of these unsuitable sites including those placed in walled kitchen gardens and botanical gardens specifically designed to produce artificially increased temperatures and microclimates. Other unsuitable sites include in or near car parks, airports, domestic gardens, sewage and water treatment plants, electricity sub-stations and solar farms.

Sanders has an interesting take on the recent closure of many rural temperature measuring sites. In 1974 there were 32 operational sites in Kent, but this has now fallen to seven. The switch to new electrically-operated platinum resistance thermometers required a reliable electricity supply and data communication. Many rural sites were closed down because such facilities were not available in the early days of automation. But by eliminating cooler recording sites from the overall data record, this left predominantly urbanised sites to cause an unrepresentative temperature uplift from the slewed averages. “Statistical sleight of hand (however inadvertent it may have been) produced inaccurate historic misrepresentation,” observes Sanders.

In his open letter to Peter Kyle MP, Sanders states that he has demonstrated with hard evidence that the Met Office is “clearly fabricating” data. In addition, it is failing to meet high standards of scientific integrity and is not producing reliable or accurate data for climate reporting purposes from a network of poorly sited and inadequately maintained locations. Peter Kyle is the Minister responsible for the Met Office and has yet to respond to Sanders’s allegations. Ray Sanders has done an excellent research job in providing new and highly relevant details in what is becoming a significant scientific scandal. To date, despite repeated requests, the Met Office has refused to make any comment and defend its own temperature measurements and calculations. While the silence in Government, Parliament and the Met Office, aided by a total lack of interest in the mainstream media, is maintained, it can only be assumed that the interests of the Net Zero promotion override any concerns about the underlying scientific data.

Chris Morrison is the Daily Sceptic’s Environment Editor.

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dk_
November 5, 2024 10:17 am

Good enough for Ingsoc.

strativarius
November 5, 2024 10:19 am

 An open letter to Peter Kyle MP.

I wouldn’t hold your breath on that. He is not scientifically inclined. He does have a degree in geography, international development, and environmental studies.

And he is very green.

Bryan A
Reply to  strativarius
November 5, 2024 11:10 am

Sounds like Kermit
No degrees yet very Green

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Bryan A
November 5, 2024 12:55 pm

It says he has a degree.

Giving_Cat
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 5, 2024 1:14 pm
Reply to  strativarius
November 5, 2024 3:34 pm

his website says
PhD in community economic development from Sussex University”

Reply to  Duker
November 5, 2024 9:17 pm

I got one of those when I opened a lucky bag I bought for £0.50

Idle Eric
November 5, 2024 10:38 am

Still probably more accurate than the 80% of their sites that sit in category 4 or 5.

November 5, 2024 10:47 am

I’d like to say “unbelievable” !

Except it is almost certainly true !!

The whole AGW scam seems to be built around deliberate fakery.

Reply to  bnice2000
November 6, 2024 12:51 pm

There is an inordinate predilection amongst mathematicians and statisticians to create LONG data records so that criticisms like short records causing spurious trends can be shrugged off. How does one argue that a long record of 150 years causes spurious trends.

This has led to manipulation of data for personal aggrandizement rather than scientific rigor. It simply amazes me how climate science that is published has little regard for ethical treatment of physical measurements.

Richard Greene
November 5, 2024 10:47 am

UK government needs to spend less

This is cheaper than the old methodology of inventing temperature data for existing stations.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 5, 2024 1:15 pm

Exactly right. Why bother with keeping weather stations and monitoring them when we have computer models that are always true?

/sarc, just in case.

November 5, 2024 10:52 am

Oops

Reply to  Steve Case
November 5, 2024 12:51 pm

Wow, two up votes for clicking on the [Post Comment] button by mistake,
and finding that you can’t post an image on edit.

Reply to  Steve Case
November 5, 2024 2:30 pm

I assumed you were commenting on the Met Office getting sprung! 😉

Oops !! 🙂

November 5, 2024 11:07 am

The practice of ‘inventing’ temperature data from non-existent stations is a controversial issue in the United States where the local weather service NOAA has been charged with fabricating data for more than 30% of its reporting sites.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Inventing temperature data? How ’bout rewriting existing data?

For some reason I saved the NASA’s Climate at a Glance May-Oct Max Temp Chart for Los Angeles from 2017. A while back I ran into it and wondered what looks like today (2020).

Los-Angeles-2017-vs-2020
Reply to  Steve Case
November 5, 2024 11:29 am

I don’t know if it was Tony Heller who coined the phrase, but ‘data tampering’ with the intent to deceive is certainly apt. The only thing we can be certain of is that if the result of such tampering did not support alarmism, it would have never happened.

KevinM
Reply to  Steve Case
November 5, 2024 11:53 am

Wow. Word war 2 era just got 3C colder if I read that right.

Reply to  KevinM
November 5, 2024 1:17 pm

Soon enough the Maginot Line will also be adjusted into a hockey stick.

Reply to  Steve Case
November 6, 2024 12:57 pm

Raw data is what these agencies should be promoting. If “scientists” want to meddle and process the data, they can show their methods and results in their published papers. Putting out press reports from ‘official’ agencies using made up data should not be done. Politics is bound to be tied up in the process.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
November 7, 2024 3:24 am

It’s also high time we stopped calling the information they publish “data.”

The only actual data is the instrument measurements. What they display as “data” is guesswork, speculation, fabrication, outright lies. Not “data.”

Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 11:29 am

Typically for Morrison, there is no direct link to what he is actually talking about. But if you burrow down, it turns out to be, not primary data (daily or monthly), but a table of averages like this one. It’s a guide to climate. And right at the bottom of that page, they say:

Averages table
The averages table shows 30-year averages for the nearest / most similar climate station to your chosen location. Tables below show averages for districts, regions and the UK. Some stations may not have all climate variables available.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 11:51 am

That is for the map and has nothing to do with the investigation.

In addition, Morrison is reporting on Ray Sanders, not his own investigation.

So lighten up, Frances.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
November 5, 2024 12:17 pm

 has nothing to do with the investigation”

So what has to do with the investigation? What did the MO actually say or do? Let’s see it.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 12:57 pm

Met Orifice have been shown to be out and out LIARS.

They use FAKE data from FAKE stations.

Nothing they say is worth a fig !!

Ron Long
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 11:52 am

Nick, please, what is your scientific interpretation of “The Met Office is said to have confirmed that the default classification for stations is set at class, “unless manually adjusted”.”?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Ron Long
November 5, 2024 1:01 pm

What is your scientific interpretation of “The Met Office is said to have …”
No first hand information.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:28 pm

Fake sites, Fake data.. .. and Nick accepts it and condones it…

WOW !!!

We see that in most of his posts , so not really a surprise

1saveenergy
Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 3:44 pm

Nick should be called ‘Jockstrap’
Because he’s full of bollocks.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  bnice2000
November 6, 2024 6:28 am

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t think this is the same Nick Stokes who used to post here. He made sense and had logical arguments. Unless Nick has followed the path of Joe Biden into advanced dementia, I can’t believe he now makes such stupid comments.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 3:47 pm

“This details 302 sites. As an example, either click on the map or type in “Dungeness”. You will be directed to a “nearest site” called “Dungeness” giving accurate map co-ordinates, elevation and a description as “Observing Site” 
Any reasonable person viewing this (a student for example) would assume there is a site there and the 30 year rolling averages from 1960 to 2020 were both “observed” and “data” – notably quoted to the second decimal place of a degree. 
However, there is NO weather station at Dungeness – it closed in 1986 – i.e. 38 years ago. 

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Duker
November 5, 2024 4:45 pm

In fact, at the head of the table it says:
“Nearest climate station to:
Dungeness B”
And explicitly, at the bottom:

*Locations displayed in this map may not be those from which observations are made. Data will be displayed from the closest available climate station, which may be a short distance from the chosen location. We are working to improve the visualisation of data as part of this map. 

Where stations are currently closed in this dataset, well-correlated observations from other nearby stations are used to help inform latest long-term average figures in order to preserve the long-term usability of the data. Similar peer-reviewed scientific methods are used by meteorological organisations around the world to maintain the continuity of long-term datasets.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 5:25 pm

So you now admit that they MAKE UP FAKE DATA. Hilarious. !

Here is the image clearly stating that Dungeness B is an “observing site”

Which is an out and out LIE.

Dung-table-2
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 7:05 am

Locations displayed in this map may not be those from which observations are made.

So, the temperatures provided “may not” be the temperatures at the displayed location. That sounds like the temperatures are fabricated.

old cocky
Reply to  Tony_G
November 6, 2024 8:46 pm

Interpolation is fine for data visualisation purposes, and is used all the time for synoptic charts, etc.

What isn’t valid is to treat interpolated or extrapolated values as data points.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 1:04 pm

observations from other nearby stations are used to help inform latest long-term average figures in order to preserve the long-term usability of the data

You simply cannot justify this from a scientific standpoint. The stated purpose of DATA is not long term usability. It is accuracy and honest treatment.

Ask yourself if a nuclear plant can use radiation data from other nearby plants in order to have a long record!

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 11:55 am

Magnificent Nick pick, totally unrelated to the central theme of the post. It’s about non-existent stations not tables of temperatures.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Nansar07
November 5, 2024 12:03 pm

So what did the Met Office actually say or do? Non-existent stations are everywhere.

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 12:32 pm

So inputs from these “stations” cannot be described or treated as “data”.

They are just “constructs”.

As I’ve frequently observed, the Probity, Provenance and Presentation of temperature “data” are woefully compromised.

And it is this fundamentally flawed “evidence” that is supposed to provide the foundation of the world’s “climate crisis”?

I do wish that a disinterested group of qualified & experienced scientists from the relevant disciplines would get together and conduct a “no bollocks” investigation into the Probity. Provenance and Presentation (3Ps) of climate politics science reporting.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mr.
November 5, 2024 12:58 pm

So inputs from these “stations” cannot be described or treated as “data”.”

Again just thrashing around. Did they do that? What did they say?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:26 pm

Doesn’t matter what the Met say.

FAKE DATA is FAKE DATA… period.

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 5:25 pm

Nick, do you ever read what you type?

“Just thrashing around” is all that Climate “Science” has been doing since the 1970s.

A “purpose” looking for a rationale or following.

Reply to  Mr.
November 5, 2024 1:00 pm

“And it is this fundamentally flawed “evidence” that is supposed to provide the foundation of the world’s “climate crisis”?”

Officially, it’s an EMERGENCY in Wokeachusetts. Every state agency must adhere to the doctrine and preach it. It’s a full court press.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
November 7, 2024 3:29 am

And Wokeachussets voted over 72% for the cackling word salad machine, which tells you all you need to know.

Reply to  AGW is Not Science
November 7, 2024 3:45 am

Probably the highest % of any state? This state is the Mecca of climate nut jobs (with no disrespect towards Muslims).

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 12:55 pm

Non-existent stations are everywhere.”

ROFLMAO.

No Nick. Non-existent stations are nowhere.

They are stations that don’t exist

You have just admitted that the whole climate scam is based on a whole heap of FAKE DATA.

We know that.. now you know that.

You really have both feet firmly planted in your gob this time. !

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 12:58 pm

You’re awfully slow for a racehorse.

Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 5, 2024 2:08 pm

Riding a dead horse probably 😀

Reply to  Krishna Gans
November 5, 2024 9:21 pm
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 5, 2024 2:25 pm

Ready for the knacker’s yard. !

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 5, 2024 3:09 pm

No, it’s everyone else here who, five hours later, can’t point to anything the MO actually said that relates to the complaint.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 3:49 pm

That’s because it’s what they don’t say that’s the problem.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 3:52 pm

No, they have to remain silent about their BLANTANT FAKERY !!

Like you, everything they say digs them deeper into the anti-science , basically fraudulent sewer they created for themselves.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 1:07 pm

Stonewall and never admit anything. Just what government agencies are supposed to do!

/sarc

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:53 pm

Non-existent stations are everywhere.

Thank you for explaining the fraudulent mess that is now Climate Scientology, Nick.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
November 5, 2024 3:38 pm

My street is full of non-existent elephants

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 3:54 pm

So, deep in DENIAL.. ok, we expect nothing else from you.

Rick K
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 5:08 pm

But, Nick… do you report on your non-existent elephants? Do you count them and record their movements? Do you tell others to stay away so they don’t get trampled?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Rick K
November 5, 2024 5:49 pm

It’s actually a serious point. We’d like to know something about the climate where we are. But there isn’t a weather station there. So we have to work it out from weather stations that do exist.

The MO, for these 30 year normals, will hook you up to a near station that has data over most of the period. For the rest, it could hook you up to a different station with data, but if you are really fussed about local place differences, you’d have to make some adjustments. By providing continuation estimated data, the MO does that for you. You were having to infer from a station anyway; this just facilitates inferring from other nearby stations.

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 7:25 pm

Rick
“These are not the droids you are looking for”

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 6:34 am

“It’s actually a serious point. We’d like to know something about the climate where we are. But there isn’t a weather station there.”

So making up data does not tell you anything about the climate. It tells you what you think the climate should be. Idiot.

Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
November 6, 2024 8:31 am

It’s like using the climate in Ramona, CA to tell you the climate in San Diego which is 30 miles away. Or using the climate at the summit of Pikes Peak to describe the climate of Colorado Springs, just a few miles away.

The climates are *totally* different because of different geography and terrain.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Tim Gorman
November 6, 2024 4:39 pm

“It’s like using the climate in Ramona, CA to tell you the climate in San Diego”

Well, suppose you live in Ramona, KS? There isn’t a weather station. What do you do? Say that you know nothing about your climate?

No. There is a station in Abilene, about 30 miles away. That gives a good guide to what you want. An obliging met service might well give you an estimate for Ramona. and it will be a good one.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 7, 2024 3:23 am

Personally, I go look at the hardiness zone maps to find the climate I’ll be in.

And you didn’t answer my question. Would *YOU* go look at the weather station in San Diego to find out the climate in Ramona? Would *YOU* use the weather station at the summit of Pikes Peak to find out the climate in Colorado Springs?

You don’t know it because you never consider it but the actual temperatures in Abilene, KS *are* different than in Topeka, KS. Abilene is not in the Kansas River Valley, Topeka is. Abilene is on the west side of the Flint Hills, Topeka is on the east side. Topeka is in the transition zone between the Missouri forests and the western Kansas flat prairie while Abilene is fully in the flat prairie. Abilene is subject to prairie blizzards, Topeka not so much. The climates are *not* the same. Rainfall patterns are different, temperatures are different, snowfall is different, pressure fronts travel different paths. Even crop seed strains are different.

BTW, Abilene is only about 80 miles from Topeka. Well within the typical climate science “correlation” zone allowing substituting (i.e. infilling and homogenization) temps from one location for another. In reality the only true correlation between the two are the daily temperature curve and the seasonal temp changes. Problem is that those correlations hold for Nome, AK and Dallas, TX while the climates are vastly different.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
November 7, 2024 6:59 am

I live only 10 miles from a town with a station. What it reports may be in the same ballpark as my house, but is definitely NOT the same. There is usually several degrees variance. And it can easily be raining there but not here (and even never rain here during the “rainy” period). It absolutely is NOT an accurate representation of my local weather.

Reply to  Tony_G
November 8, 2024 5:10 am

It absolutely is NOT an accurate representation of my local weather.”

Which is the definition of “climate”.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 7, 2024 3:38 am

What an obliging met service shouldn’t do is make believe there IS a temperature station where none exists, and make up “data” for it.

comment image

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
November 6, 2024 1:32 pm

As Tony B says, the MO is there to provide a service to the public. People want to know stuff about their location. The MO does their best to tell them. They give them numbers for a nearby weather station. Sometimes they create a virtual station using nearby data.

This whole beatup was created about just such a facility. The MO provided a map whereby you could click and get some information about your location. It wasn’t even temperature. It was a calculated climate normal (30 yrs average). And they very clearly explained how they put that data together.

This is what you find out when you look into what you are rarely told at WUWT – what did the organisation being bashed actually do or say.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 9, 2024 9:31 am

The point is that the data is made up and does not necessarily show the true “climate” at that spot.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 8:48 am

Ah, we’re getting somewhere at last!

Stokes genuinely believes that a completely made-up temperaure for a point devoid of a met station is a data point. Glad that’s cleared up.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 1:18 pm

But there isn’t a weather station there. So we have to work it out from weather stations that do exist.

So much Bull Excrement. That is not how science works. “Working out” data is making it up.

From:
https://scientific-publishing.webshop.elsevier.com/manuscript-review/research-fraud-falsification-and-fabrication-research-data/

Falsification essentially involves manipulating or changing data, research materials, processes, equipment and, of course, results. This can include altering data or results in a way where the research is not accurate. For example, a researcher might be looking for a particular outcome, and the actual research did not support their theory. They might manipulate the data or analysis to match the research to the desired results

From:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-geological-survey-lab-worker-faked-test-results/

A worker at a federal laboratory in Colorado intentionally manipulated test results for years, possibly tainting research …

A notice on a USGS website said the manipulation was done in part to correct calibration failures in the instrument being used, a mass spectrometer.

You seem to have no appreciation for the ethics involved in scientific endeavors.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 8:50 pm

My street is full of non-existent elephants

Exactly. And Climate Scientology is full of non-existent high temperature readings!

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 6:32 am

And your government is using these non-existent elephants to formulate policy. No wonder the Southern Hemisphere is such an effing mess.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 7:07 am

My street is full of non-existent elephants

So what does the third one from the left weigh?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 8:42 am

Do non-existent stations supply data?

KevinM
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 11:56 am

may not have all climate variables”

Temperature seems basic. When someone says “not all” I think humidity detectors are more expensive, more trouble prone and less accurate.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  KevinM
November 5, 2024 2:31 pm

Rain gauges are common and cheap.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 3:56 pm

Nick going into manic evasion. Deceitful and disingenuous.

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 7:27 pm

Rain gauges are common and cheap.

Yes Nick, but their usefulness depends entirely on where you place them, and when you take readings,

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 11:57 am

And right at the bottom of that page…’

Actually, right at the bottom of the page it says ‘Where stations are currently closed in this dataset, well-correlated observations from other nearby stations are used to help inform latest long-term average figures in order to preserve the long-term usability of the data.’

So Nick is explaining that the Met Office is directing enquiries to the nearest climate station, which may well be closed, in which case they just ‘correlate’ the observations.

What is the difference between numbers for a fictitious weather station and numbers for a weather station which is currently closed?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  stevencarr
November 5, 2024 12:56 pm

So, contra this article, the MO is explaining what they do, and why.

And it makes sense. The purpose of the map and tables is to tll you the best they can about climate (30 yr norms) where you are. So they give you data for what they think is the nearest comparable station. But what if you want to know how your climate has varied, and that station closed along the way?

Well, they could send you off to a different station. But that might be a warmer or colder place than the original, and that would show up as a spurious change where you are. So they maintain an estimate for the original station. They can do that accurately, because they have many years of overlapping data between that and nearby stations.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 1:43 pm

Nick, it has been stated by “climate scientists” that they can do infilling for missing stations (here in the states) by using stations up to 1200 km apart. So, we could take the temperature a block or two from the Pacific Ocean and then use a station in the Great American Desert to come up with a temperature for somewhere in between. Not even good basic arithmetic.

Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
November 5, 2024 2:08 pm

The “correlation” used to justify the infilling is usually nothing more than daily or seasonal variation. I.e. if station A gets warmer during the day then it can be assumed that station B (500 miles) away will get also get warmer during the day so you can just use the temperature at station A for station B’s value.

The problem is that the summit of Pikes Peak *does* get warmer in the summer just like Colorado Springs a few miles away does so the two are “correlated”. So you can substitute the temp at the summit for Co Spgs or vice versa.

Editor
Reply to  Tim Gorman
November 5, 2024 3:34 pm

The UK could save a lot of money by closing all its weather stations and reporting Norway’s as their own. After all, they are correlated. Then Norway could save a lot of money by …….

Reply to  Tim Gorman
November 5, 2024 4:03 pm

Much better stated – thanks.

Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
November 5, 2024 2:10 pm

When they are able to use one tree to derterminate a global “mean” temperature…

Reply to  Krishna Gans
November 5, 2024 2:56 pm

When they are able to use one tree to derterminate a global “mean” temperature…

When you’ve seen one tree, you’ve see Yammal!

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
November 5, 2024 2:26 pm

Nick, it has been stated by “climate scientists” that they can do infilling for missing stations (here in the states) by using stations up to 1200 km apart.”

As so often, no proper attribution or links. And it is totally muddled and wrong.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 3:57 pm

Except you KNOW it is correct..

Disingenuous as always.

SwedeTex
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
November 5, 2024 2:32 pm

Love averages like this. So accurate for reality. A man with his head in the freezer and his feet in the broiler is on average quite comfortable.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  SwedeTex
November 6, 2024 6:38 am

Someone here pointed out that the average person has one ovary and one testicle.

Reply to  SwedeTex
November 6, 2024 6:49 am

If you use Kelvin (as you should for thermodynamics) then the man with his feet in the broiler who then sticks his head in the refrigerator sees his average temperature go UP. (t1 + t2)/2 is greater than (t1)/2!

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
November 6, 2024 6:36 am

And if you take it to it’s ridiculous conclusion you would go completely around the world filling in the same data.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:12 pm

It is telling that Nick is quite happy for data to be COMPLETELY FABRICATED.

(so long as it fits the agenda)

One wonders what he got away with when he was at CSIRO !!

Nothing coming from CSIRO can now be trusted, because it is probably FAKE.

Well done, Nick. Destroy what little reputation they may once have had.

No scientist, is Nick and CSIRO…… but rabid anti-science activists.

Reply to  bnice2000
November 6, 2024 8:54 am

I wouldn’t trust Stokes to order me a ham sandwich. He would hand me a cheese one and then assert with a completely straight face that it was in reality ham.

Reply to  Graemethecat
November 6, 2024 9:30 am

The ham is in a nearby sandwich.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:52 pm

But what if you want to know how your climate has varied, and that station closed along the way?”

I know precisely how much my local climate has varied, because I’ve been here at my current residence for 36 years. And I can confirm that there has been nothing outside of natural variability in all that time. I do not need a weather station, real or fictional, to tell me that. I can tell you, however, that my nearest reporting weather station about 2 miles away as the crow flies, was surrounded by a solar farm a couple of years ago. Hundreds of black panels all around the site to within a few feet of the sensor. What do you think that station has been indicating about my local climate variations since?

Untitled
Nick Stokes
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
November 5, 2024 3:07 pm

 What do you think that station has been indicating about my local climate variations since?”

Looks like Chertsey. It isn’t one of the ones in that map.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:06 pm

I didn’t ask if it was in the map.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
November 5, 2024 4:38 pm

That’s why we need a link to what the MO says that is the subject of the complaint. Sanders links to a site that is a mapping facility, and claims that some of the stations are “fake”. You point to a station near you which is not fake, whatever else you think about it. But it isn’t on the map that Sanders is complaining about either.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:49 pm

SO WHAT, answer RHS’s question..

… how much do you think the huge solar array will affect temperature reading at that site.

Sanders is making a point about the parlous state of the Met network..

.. and it is very valid point.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:08 pm

LIAR. It is the one on the map,

The image you showed at the time was from (iirc) 2020

The solar panels were installed in 2022 (iirc).

You have been shown this before… you are just digging yourself deep into ignorance and refusal to admit you are wrong even the evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

That is really sick and petty of you, and destroys any reputation you might once have had.

Two images, firstly the Google Earth one of the Chertsey water works with the weather site circled.

Note the 5 treatment ponds and the building with 6 sections on top

Chertsey-2020
Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 4:11 pm

Now the more recent stock photo.. with the solar arrays shown.

Same 5 ponds, same building with 6 sections.. same road layout.

Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 4:14 pm

Attached wrong image first time.

Everyone can see just how WRONG you are.. as usual, Nick.

Chertsey-1
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:45 pm

And even better view taken at 2:52 of this video

Chertsey Solar Array

Clearly showing the weather site totally surrounded by new solar factory.

Same building with 6 sections on top clearly visible .. same road etc etc.

SAME SITE !

You are either DELIBERATELY LYING or being very ignorant.

Which is it Nick?

Chertsey-2
Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 7:29 pm

So they give you data for what they think is the nearest comparable station.

Nick, they are not giving anyone “data”.

They are giving out what they reckon.

sherro01
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 10:04 pm

Nick,
Can you please link to a text book that describes how to calculate uncertainty and/or treatment of errors from weather stations with made-up data? Geoff S

Nick Stokes
Reply to  sherro01
November 6, 2024 1:11 am

Geoff,
There are no weather stations with made up data

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 6:42 am

What do you call data that isn’t measured, but instead is calculated from other numbers that may or may not be data? This can be a recursive process.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 9:07 am

Stokes asserts, ”There are no weather stations with made up data”.

He also says,

It’s actually a serious point. We’d like to know something about the climate where we are. But there isn’t a weather station there. So we have to work it out from weather stations that do exist.

The MO, for these 30 year normals, will hook you up to a near station that has data over most of the period. For the rest, it could hook you up to a different station with data, but if you are really fussed about local place differences, you’d have to make some adjustments. By providing continuation estimated data, the MO does that for you. You were having to infer from a station anyway; this just facilitates inferring from other nearby stations.

If this isn’t invention of data, I don’t know what is.

Unbelievably, Stokes writes about estimated data, apparently unaware that ”estimated data” is a contradiction in terms.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 6, 2024 1:23 pm

estimated does not mean made up.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 6:13 pm

Estimated means made up.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 7, 2024 3:50 am

Data means an instrument reading. Everything else IS made up. No matter how “good” you THINK the GUESSWORK is, it isn’t “data.”

Reply to  AGW is Not Science
November 7, 2024 7:03 am

If there is no actual data to compare to, how do we know the “estimate” is correct?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 11:31 am

There are no weather stations with made up data”

Nick resorts to outright LIES…. again.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 5:24 pm

There are no weather stations with made up data

You are trying to excuse using your neighboring lab partner’s data for your own! I mean they are within arms reach so how much difference can it make if I just use their result!

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 5:14 pm

Well, they could send you off to a different station. But that might be a warmer or colder place than the original, and that would show up as a spurious change where you are.

You just ruined your excuse of using nearby temperatures to “infill” discontinued stations!

You just need to admit that fabricating information (temperatures) is unscientific. It can never be validated for accuracy and uncertainty. Stated values and any uncertainty values are pure guesses

Reply to  stevencarr
November 5, 2024 1:09 pm

“inform”???

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 12:37 pm

Say I have 10 stations. 5 at 10C and 5 at 12C. Then I make up an additional 5 stations at 12C to include in the “average”. What happens to the average?

Temperatures are not the same even at very small distances. I have printed out temp maps for NE Kansas for you before. The temps vary all over, THEY ARE NOT ALL THE SAME. So what happens if I pick 10 stations with the highest temps to create 10 “phantom” stations in order to the data into the data set? Does the average stay the same?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Tim Gorman
November 5, 2024 1:04 pm

They are not talking about spatial averages. They are talking about climate at a specific location.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:09 pm

How does a phantom location have a measured climate?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:14 pm

They are talking about climate at a specific location.”

No they are not.. they are talking about a FABRICATED climate at a location that doesn’t exist.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 7, 2024 3:54 am

No they aren’t. They are GUESSING what the TEMPERATURE *MIGHT* be IF they had a thermometer there.

Which tells them nothing about ” climate.”

JUST LIKE THE ACTUAL DATA (instrument measurements) which were never intended to, and are not fit for the purpose of, identifying any “climate signal.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 12:48 pm

Then it is up to you to point out where these FAKE SITES are, Nick.

Instead of just making very stupid irrelevant comments.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 1:28 pm

The link is in the second line, and takes you directly to the subject of the post, which is the letter being sent to the Labour Science Minister.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  PariahDog
November 5, 2024 2:24 pm

Yes, that is what I followed. It leads to the climate map facility that I described, and a list of historic stations, which is much smaller and does not include places like Dungeness or Dover Beach.

But there is something basic missing here. It doesn’t help to point to that letter. What did the MO say? Where is it? What are we talking abou?. No one seems to know.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:13 pm

I though he was being clear in claiming that the MET is getting data from stations that don’t exist.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Sunsettommy
November 5, 2024 4:31 pm

But where did they do that? What did they say about it? There are no facts to back the claim.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 5:06 pm

Question..

do your think data marked as “observed” in Met office pages, should actually be “observed”?..

… or is making up a FAKE number ok by you ?!

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 5:14 pm

Here is the site named Dungeness, using the coordinates given for the “Observing Site” Dungerness B if you follow the links (yellow pin)

The page provide monthly averages to 2020.

Please explain how this is an “observing site”, Nick.

dungeness
Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 5:19 pm

Here is the search showing Dungeness B is a “climate station”

Dung-sites
Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 5:21 pm

And showing it is marked as an “Observing Site”.. with monthly data

dung-table
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 9:01 am

OMG! you can’t see what everybody else here can see, you need better glasses.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:19 pm

Yep, still waiting to see what hilarious explanation they can come up with for DELIBERATELY USING FAKED DATA.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:16 pm

Nick, somehow your bank lost your account info and decided to change your balance to the average of several people who live close by you.

Send them a thank you for their diligence in keeping your funds accurate

Nick Stokes
Reply to  John in Oz
November 5, 2024 2:25 pm

Or maybe a thank you for the extra money 🙂

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 9:24 pm

Or maybe a thank you for the extra money 

Maybe we should send the UKMO a thank you for the extra few degrees they’re making up

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:59 pm

Typically for Morrison, there is no direct link to what he is actually talking about.

I can see a diirect link to the letter right at the top of the article. That has links, and a lot of information. Are you just being deliberately obtuse, Nick? Surely not!

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
November 5, 2024 3:43 pm

The letter is not from the MO. It does link to a MO climate estimation facility, which it what I have been talking about.

If it’s all so obvious, why can’t anyone just post a link to some actual MO material which is supposed to be the subject of the complaint? It’s now nearly six hours and no-one has (except me).

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:21 pm

Did you find any of the FAKE WEATHER SITES yet, Nick ?

That is what the topic is all about.

Are you too deceitful to stick on topic…

…or are you determined to just go with petty irrelevant distraction attempts as always!?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 4:57 pm

Question Nick.

Do you really think the Met Office should be maintaining data for sites that don’t even exist ???

Your answer will show if you have any scientific integrity left at all.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 5:34 pm

Wow! Just wow!

The letter describes the problems in detail, with links supporting the problem. You, however, complain that there is no direct link to the data that the MO is making up.

The fact that one third of the MO’s sites don’t exist is obviously not important to you. This is nit-picking taken to ludicrous levels.

Why not try addressing the actual substance of the issue, for a change? Is that to difficult for you? You very rarely do, so I have to assume so.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 6, 2024 8:40 am

What does that have to do with non-existent met stations?

Bob
November 5, 2024 11:38 am

All top administrators for NOAA and MET must be fired and blackballed. They must never be allowed to work for or with any government or government project. Lying is not okay.

KevinM
November 5, 2024 11:49 am

Data are retrieved from surrounding stations and the resulting averages are given an ‘E’ for estimate”

First step in running ant data analysis: Remove/Ignore all data given an ‘E’ for estimate

Nick Stokes
Reply to  KevinM
November 5, 2024 1:07 pm

This nonsense refers to USHCN, which was replaced by ClimDiv more than ten years ago. There were good reasons why USHCN returned a labelled estimate. And if you had ignored it, you would have gone wrong. Ten years ago.

KevinM
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 1:58 pm

It is nonsense, and was it was replaced more than 10 years ago, and ignoring it causes one to get wrong answers?

Edit:
Ah, from below: “First, the “E” and “Not E” subsets exhibit trends that are not like each other. In other words, whatever was done to produce the “E” values does not give results comparable to measured values.”

How could that happen?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 5, 2024 2:17 pm

You KNOW you are lying.

Tony Heller gave you direct links to USHCN 2.5 many times.

It still exists.

There were good reasons why USHCN returned a labelled estimate”

Yes, because the sites didn’t exist any more and gave them an opportunity to create FAKE DATA.

Nearly 30% … just FAKE. !!

Reply to  KevinM
November 6, 2024 5:33 pm

Exactly.

November 5, 2024 11:50 am

Fake Data is the foundation of wet sand upon which climate pseudoscience is built.

Anthony Banton
November 5, 2024 12:02 pm

“The Met Office directs online inquiries about Dover to the ”nearest climate station” at Dover Harbour (Beach) and provides a full set of rolling 30-year averages.”

No it doesn’t – it provides data from the nearest climate station to the one being viewed (the UKMO provides site-specific forecasts for over 5000 sites in the UK and each is referred to the corresponding closest climate station).
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/services/data/datapoint/uk-3-hourly-site-specific-forecast

“According to Met Office co-ordinates, the site is on Dover beach as the Google Earth photo below shows.”

Indeed it is – but it is a virtual station provided for holiday-makers seeking to know the forecast weather for a day on the beach

“It seems unlikely that any scientific organisation would site a temperature monitoring station that is likely to be submerged on a regular basis.”

Get away !!

“Who is running this station on the beach, have accurate records been kept for 30 years and why is it not listed under the 380 sites that are given a WMO rating?”

Nobody is running this station – IT IS A VIRTUAL STATION with no recorded/observed data.
As The MetO says on the very page giving the details of “Dover beach”

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-climate-averages/u10fvfm1g

“Locations displayed in this map may not be those from which observations are made. Data will be displayed from the closest available climate station, which may be a short distance from the chosen location. We are working to improve the visualisation of data as part of this map. 
Where stations are currently closed in this dataset, well-correlated observations from other nearby stations are used to help inform latest long-term average figures in order to preserve the long-term usability of the data. Similar peer-reviewed scientific methods are used by meteorological organisations around the world to maintain the continuity of long-term datasets. 

“The practice of ‘inventing’ temperature data from non-existent stations ….”

It is not “inventing” temp data. The MetO clearly state that the data comes from the nearest climate station to the location investigated. They are real temps and if the user requires the exact location he/she would need to contact the MetO for that info.
This is not meant for professional use just for casual enquiries by the interested.
And the data is certainly not used for any climatological purpose 

This is the list of UKMO climate and synoptic station:

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-synoptic-and-climate-stations
And the page stating the MetO provide site-specific FORECASTS not observations.

“Since that date the figures have been complied on an estimated basis.”
Yes, but just not used for climatalogical purposes just for interested parties.

“The stations at Nairn Druim, Paisley and Newton Rigg are similarly closed but still reporting estimated monthly data. “Why would any scientific organisation feel the need to publish what can only be described as fiction?” asks Sanders. “No scientific purpose can possibly be served by fabrication,” he suggests.”

FFS: For the casual interest of UK tax payers!

The MetO say:
“We are showing you the observations for the nearest location to Nairn (12.1 miles, 4 m lower)”
“We are showing you the observations for the nearest location to Paisley (5.5 miles, 43 m higher). “
“We are showing you the observations for the nearest location to Newton Rigg (12.1 miles, 86 m higher).”

The UKMO provides a public service to UK citizens and it’s remit is not solely to produce observation for inclusion in climate data series such as Hadcrut or to make and run GCMs and run a 24/7 NWP data collection and forecast suite that provides global weather data for multiple agencies including the IAA as a WAFC ….

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/services/transport/aviation/regulated/international-aviation/wafc/index

“Lowestoft provides records going back to 1914 but it closed in 2010. Since that date the figures have been complied on an estimated basis.”

Yes and here they are:

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/data/weather/uk/climate/stationdata/lowestoftdata.txt

Notice where it says “Change to Monckton Ave” (sept 2007)
The rest are indeed estimated and if you want to know how then write and ask them.
Again the data is not included in climate stats.

“In his open letter to Peter Kyle MP, Sanders states that he has demonstrated with hard evidence that the Met Office is “clearly fabricating” data. “

Complete and utter bollocks and paranoia.
So easily refuted with due diligence and common sense.
Which of course I would never expect from the likes of Morrison/Climate skeptic.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 5, 2024 4:12 pm

Monckton Avenue. Really? How delicious.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 5, 2024 4:24 pm

All Banton said was just mindless BLUSTER.

Met office uses FAKE SITES, with FAKE data…

And I’m totally sure Banton is well aware of that fact, because he is part of the scam.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 6, 2024 9:23 am

A ”virtual” met station eh?

Thanks for inadvertently confirming the accusation.

Rud Istvan
November 5, 2024 12:04 pm

The UK stuff soinds very much like what I found on a US, then global basis as described in essay ‘When Data Isn’t’ in ebook Blowing Smoke.
The UK temperature data isn’t.

JBP
November 5, 2024 12:07 pm

hahahaha, gov’t at its best…..

cartoss
November 5, 2024 12:28 pm

It sounds like an investigation that Roger Pielke jnr could be interested in pursuing. He is already looking at the “Billion dollar Disasters” bit of deception from NOAA

November 5, 2024 12:39 pm

Data tampering is happening in every country that engages in climate alarmism. They have to do this because the raw data does not support the global warming narrative — so they alter the data. My video illustrates this problem in the USA … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF16lDtSVrU

November 5, 2024 1:23 pm

This article refers to NOAA monthly data for the U.S.: “Data are retrieved from surrounding stations and the resulting averages are given an ‘E’ for estimate.” This applies to a portion of the 1,218 stations of the USHCN (United States Historical Climatology Network.)

This is still being done, even though the USHCN is no longer the direct source of published trends. My opinion is that this is to NOAA’s credit, so as to allow us to see for ourselves how it works out to influence the record. NOAA’s published graphs now use the nClimDiv dataset.

Back in 2022 I analyzed the USHCN Tavg data for the month of July from 1895 through 2021 and posted a comment here at WUWT. Link below.

There were two blindingly obvious conclusions:

First, the “E” and “Not E” subsets exhibit trends that are not like each other. In other words, whatever was done to produce the “E” values does not give results comparable to measured values.

Second, the influence of the “E” subset is to have cooled the early part of the record and warmed the more recent part of the finalized trend.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/15/satellite-and-surface-temperatures/#comment-3477594

There you have it.

Reply to  David Dibbell
November 5, 2024 2:20 pm

Don’t know why they bother with nClimDiv.

It is deliberately homogenised to match USCRN at a regional level to remove urban bias.

It is a EX-data-set.

May as well just use USCRN.

Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 2:55 pm

Don’t know why they bother with nClimDiv.”
Probably to generate a plausible record, at least for monthly values, back to the late 1800’s. USCRN goes back only about 20 years.

Reply to  David Dibbell
November 5, 2024 4:25 pm

But they can’t go back before 2005, because the didn’t have USCRN to “adjust” to.

They can “PRETEND” though.

Reply to  David Dibbell
November 6, 2024 5:41 pm

Exactly. They need to have long records to show how much it has warmed and to sluff off criticisms about spurious trends and correlations from using a whole mess of short records.

Reply to  David Dibbell
November 5, 2024 4:24 pm

I wonder if they homogenise the ‘E’ values together with actual observations to give a more accurate (/s) result.
I wonder if ‘E’ values get adjusted along with actual observations to account for things time of observation bias etc. (/s).

ScienceABC123
November 5, 2024 2:17 pm

Anyone want to take bets on the Mets invented temperature records matching computer models supporting global warming? Anyone?

Edward Katz
November 5, 2024 2:22 pm

Here’s another example of the desperation of the climate alarmists. They see greater percentages of the population aren’t falling for their hysterics or are rejecting green lifestyles altogether, so they’re now concocting fake news in the attempt to rejuvenate arguments that aroused suspicion when they first resorted to them. They had better give their heads a vigorous shaking because the people are giving them even less credence than before.

sherro01
November 5, 2024 2:25 pm

More missing data? Is atmospheric CO2 made up before Mauna Loa 1960?
Can anyone link to digital monthly or yearly numbers for CO2 going back to (say) 1910 or better 1860? I have the Beck papers that are part of the sound of silence….
The official story is that CO2 correlates highly with global temperatures. I am testing this fundamental plank of faith, but I cannot find early numbers to plug into correlation coefficient calculations.
I am having to assume that the many official graphs are simply pencil lines drawn in from imagination in order to give the official impression of a robust relationship.
I know that monthly numbers are unlikely before Mauna Loa, but I am starting to think that annual numbers are also unlikely to exist. If so, what is the scientific basis for claiming a correlation with temperature?
Links welcomed. Geoff S

Reply to  sherro01
November 6, 2024 5:46 am

Good luck. Two of the big problems you’ll have is identifying the actual variance of the data and in having sufficient granularity in time to figure lead/lag values in the time series. Hope you can overcome them.

November 5, 2024 2:27 pm

Is there a way to get the daily data record from a specific station like you can for the NOAA sea level tide gauges (see link below)? I’m curious to see what the historical record and trend for each station looks like. I’d bet that the aggregate trend is heavily influenced by interpolated (fake) data.

Here’s the NOAA website for sea level data:

https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/

If you zoom in and click on a specific arrow (station), you see the station data in a separate window. Very helpful.

Nik
November 5, 2024 2:44 pm

Where’s the problem? Fake data to support a fake crisis is only natural. Fits right in with Mike’s nature trick.

The Perryman
November 5, 2024 9:24 pm

Our own BoM and CSIRO have been called out for the same antics (as well as massaging raw temperature data) as the UK Met. These two organisations are taxpayer funded to the tune of $1 billion each. Our Aussie biologist – Jennifer Marahasy – on a number of occasions has recommended an audit on both of these institutions. If the corporate world did the same with their financials, bigger gaols would need to be built!

DFJ150
November 6, 2024 6:00 am

They design models to support their green agenda conclusions. Why should we be surprised when they also manufacture data tailored to fit those models?

Loren Wilson
November 6, 2024 4:22 pm

Just request the calibration data for these ghost sites. If there is a calibration, contact the company that calibrated it and ask where the station actual is sited. If it has not been calibrated within the timeframe the manufacturer specifies, then the station’s data are not usable.

Reply to  Loren Wilson
November 6, 2024 5:46 pm

Since they are ‘virtual’, they will inherit the calibration uncertainty and calibration corrections as nearby stations!

Ha, ha, har!

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