From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT
By Paul Homewood
The average cost of second hand electric cars is plummeting by a “phenomenal amount” as they sit for “months on end” without any buyers.
Research by online motor marketplace, AutoTrader, revealed the average price for a used EV has dropped by 21.4 per cent this month, compared to a year ago.
Marc Palmer, the head of strategy and insights at AutoTrader, told MailOnline: “The used market will now be slower to mature. There will be fewer new EVs registered and fewer used cars coming to market.
“There will be sections of the public, especially those who are sceptical, who will want to wait.”
The expert explained that used cars are the “biggest” section of the industry, however motorists are likely to “take longer” in the switch to electric.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/24099905/second-hand-ev-prices-falling-driver-lose-confidence/
According to the Mail:
Mid-month figures for September released by AutoTrader – the largest online marketplace for cars – reveal that the average price of a used EV has fallen by 21.4 per cent to £32,463.
Premium sector EVs, including Tesla, BMW, Mini and Mercedes-Benz, were hit hardest – with values falling by up to 24.1 per cent year-on-year.
The data, reported by The Times, showed that prices of second-hand premium sector EVs peaked at £51,704 last August and have since plummeted by more than £10,000 to £39,268.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12551439/used-electric-cars-price.html
The second hand EV is between a rock and a hard place!
Increasing numbers are now coming onto the market, corresponding to the increasing number of new sales in recent years.
Yet at the same time, there seems to be little appetite ffrom buyers. Most new EVs go either to Business/Fleet purchasers, or rich, virtue signallers. Neither sector is interested in buying second hand EVs.
Private buyers of second hand cars cannot afford the inflated price of EVs – if they could, they would buy a new petrol car anyway. And they are less likely to have off street parking, therefore making charging more expensive and problematic. Hence the low turnover of second hand EVs.
EV manufacturers have taken a huge risk in offering cheap PCPs, in the hope attracting buyers. These deals are ultimately based on EVs holding their value well.
With plummeting second hand values, they and the lease companies could be facing massive losses.
What is remarkable about these reports is that the so-called experts seem genuinely surprised about all of this. It was utterly predictable all along.
One “expert”, Marc Palmer, the head of strategy and insights at AutoTrader, told the Mail that the used market will now be slower to mature, and that motorists are likely to “take longer” in the switch to electric.
And the SMMT said “A faster and fairer mass transition [to zero-emission vehicles] is threatened by the absence of support for private buyers, many of whom plan to go electric but are delaying due to concerns over affordability and uncertainty regarding the availability of a charging network.”
They have obviously been believing their own propaganda about EVs for too long.
They still do not seem to have worked out that EVs are utterly useless for most private drivers, who will refuse to make the switch until forced to.
People are slowly waking up to the fact that resale values for EVs as mileage increases will approach zero, because everyone will refuse to pay for a new battery to be installed.
Funny too because I would have no issue replacing the fuel tank on an ICE prior to purchasing, even paying for it as a term of the purchase. However replacing the fuel tank on an EV is quite expensive.
Back in the early days of electric model aircraft where actually even getting one to fly at all was an achievement, one of the technical peole who pioneered the technology remarked that the ‘electric motor at best, represents the crankshaft of an IC engine. All the rest of it is what the battery and speed controller are’. So replacing a battery is akin to re engine-ing a car.
In short its going to be a $10,000 upgrade without which no one will buy the car at all.
You wouldnt buy a car with a rod through the block, so why would you buy an electric car with 8,000 hours on the battery?
Leo agreed but I would buy a ice car with a rod through the block as it is fairly cheap and easy to replace the engine and there are lots of inexpensive engines in wrecking yards that have outlived the car they are sitting in. On the other hand I wouldn’t buy an EV under any circumstances. Not even an E-Bike as I have a 1975 moped that gets well over 100 mpg I have been using for over 30 years after replacing the piston and rings as well as a few seals for $65 dollars when I bought it.
Electric cars are indeed stupid. And no, replacing the main battery can be much more than $10k. $15k to $25k is more like it.
Likewise what kind of ancient fantasy world suggests you can replace a modern IC engine cheaply? The typical labor to replace an engine in a small or mid size car is 20-30 hours, and at $125/hr from an independent service facility that is $2500 to $3750 just for the labor. Are you really going to trust a junkyard engine isn’t going to crap out after you sank that much money to change it?
The rebuilt engine, with a warranty for the same class of vehicle is in the range of $3500 to $7000. So an engine replacement these days is from $6k to $11k parts and labor.
Gone are the days of engines being robust and simple enough to just get one from a junkyard and slap it in. The ancillary and sensing systems alone could cost you $3k for a junkyard special – so better off to get a rebuilt with a warranty.
But people are generally stupid – we had a Bentley V12 owner who needed to replace the starter motor, and unfortunately to replace the starter, you must remove the engine. The Bentley dealership quoted $16,000… 90% of that being labor. We did it for about $6500 in labor. But the idiot chose to use a junkyard special from ebay on the starter, because a new one cost $1600. So he saved $1k, but it died 6 months later – I can hear his screams even now – AWWWW!
In the past 6 months we have had about 3 or 4 people come in with old junkers with almost dead engines, wanting a quote on replacing it. In every case we would convince them that the car is not worth the cost to replace it’s engine. (if the car is only worth $4k with a working engine, spending $6k to replace the worn out engine does not make economic sense)
Likewise people are not going to spend $30k for an EV which may cost them $25k to replace the battery on top of the purchase price, You will never recoup that cost as it continues to devalue.
On the other hand we just installed a rebuilt engine in a Ford pickup, a relatively new one. But that truck has a resale value of $33k, and thus the $7500 cost to replace the engine was justified to the customer. (well without a working engine it is only worth scrap value – likewise people are realizing an EV with lots of time on the battery is akin to scrap)
My experience is a little different. My new truck a 2011 GMC Sierra 1500 only cost $2500 and I have never paid more than $8000 for any vehicle I have owned.The last truck I owned was a 1992 Ford F150 and I had bought it for only $200 and it worked fine for 5 years.
The most recent engine I replaced took 4.5 hours but we have pulled the engine in my son’s 1980 Fairmont wagon in less than an hour. We have done that one more than a few times though. Modern engines are easy as the electrics all go to usually two large plugs. So undo those two plugs a couple of fuel lines twenty or so capscrews a few other hoses and lift out the engine. Reverse the order to install the replacement. I have done probably 60 or 70 engines in the last 40 years. Lately I get guaranteed good engines for less than $1000 from a local yard. That Bentley person should have rebuilt the original starter as a couple of brushes and some bearings wouldn’t have cost $50. Having to remove an engine to replace the starter is asinine. An example of poor engineering. I’m just pissed at all the useless crap on a newer vehicle. I am just buying a 4 gauge instrument cluster for the new truck to get an oil pressure gauge and while I’m at it I’m going to remove the LED for the tire pressure sensor warning light and remove the program from the computer as I can do my own tire checks and the sensors fail all the time making the whole system useless.
Seems like brilliant engineering on the part of Bentley to build in massive labor costs for “relatively” inexpensive parts
“Having to remove an engine to replace the starter is asinine. An example of poor engineering.”
I think you have to take the whole body off some Super Duty Ford Diesel trucks to get at the oil pan. Another example of poor engineering.
I was sad to see that stupidity from Ford. In reality that shows they want a throw away vehicle. That puts a limit to what years of trucks I will buy.
the car is not worth the cost to replace it’s engine. (if the car is only worth $4k with a working engine, spending $6k to replace the worn out engine does not make economic sense)
That’s not a correct analysis. Spending money on repairs to a used car isn’t justified by prices of other cars. A used car isn’t purchased as an investment, it’s bought to go from point A to point B inexpensively. It’s eventual resale value as junk is immaterial.
You will never recoup that cost as it continues to devalue.
The same is true of a new car. Driving it off the dealer’s lot means a significant drop in its “value”. Its value will always continue to decline until it reaches “classic” status, which is unrelated to its worth as a form of practical transportation.
The purchase of a new or used auto says more about the buyer than it does about the car. In the US the most important indication of masculinity is a 4-wheel drive diesel pickup. Even if it never leaves a paved road it means that the driver is a stud. On the other hand, slipping silently through the city in a Tesla means that the man behind the wheel is an aware individual with his finger on the pulse of modern technology and culture.
More likely the Tesla driver a virtue signaling urban parasite.
I wonder what it means if I drive a moped? 😲
MB:
LOL. No offense intended, but my first thought was that you lost your license from a DUI conviction . Sorry!
That’s why I like this site: yours and Shoki’s posts both made me laugh. And the world needs a lot more laughter!
I’d say your last paragraph is basically you describing you. Where I live, the “culture” would be amused at seeing an EV. Penetrating this far from a public charger is the ragged limit – stop, step outside and hear the crickets, turn around and hope you make it back to a charger.
Keep a Honda pull start in the trunk
I saw the first Tesla in my home town just the other day.
We have a charging station off to the side of a major throughfare, and, although I don’t drive by it every day, every time I do drive by it, the place is empty. I have never seen an EV sitting there charging.
Satire is lost on you bozos.
Irony, sarcasm and satire doesn’t come across well in print. That’s why God invented the /sarc tag.
Jonathon Swift seemed to make it work, no tags needed.
Aw gee, GC. I was too polite to tell you you’re no Swift, but since you insist. Anyway, I think he ran into some misunderstandings too.
Just a reminder Ev’s started in the late 1800’s and failed by 1918. The sad part is the EV’s of today still have the same issues that the first ones failed for, too expensive and limited range. Back then a Detroit Electric cost $4000 whereas a Model T sold for $350🤷♂️
My uncle, who was an engineer, built himself an electric car back in the 1950’s, usng lead-acid batteries.
Gen Custer,
I (think) I understood your final paragraph in it’s intended context.
(It’s a lot easier to talk to people than to type to people.)
About six month ago I got the big 3500 diesel. When I was looking around on the car lots the salesmen would ask what I was towing; I told them ‘nothing … I just want to feel like a big truck guy’. They did not know how to respond to that.
You mean a person who never needs to more than a few blocks with his virtue signaling toy.
Reminds me of the people who buy a riding lawn mower for their 0.1 acre lot.
Battery mining, processing, manufacturing and then dragging around a 1000 extra pounds may be woke culture but it should not be confused with high technology.
It’s hell on tires too…every 20,000 miles Teslas need fresh rubber
After 25 years the car is considered Collectable.
After 50 years the car is considered Antique.
Antiques, depending on condition can and do Appreciate in price.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2iYrrcImfk
I certainly Appreciate most of those
I watched a Mechum auto auction the other day on tv, and they had a cherry 1955 Ford two-door hardtop that sold for $14,000! I would have bought that car in a heartbeat, if I had a chance. My dad had a 1955 Ford.
A 1955 Chevy hardtop would go for anywhere from $25,000 to $75,000. The difference in price is because of popularity of the Chevy models, not because the Ford is inferior.
Sometimes you can get a very good deal at a Mechum auto action.
Btw, the list price for a new 1955 Chevy in 1955 was about $1,750.00.
Those were the Good Ole Days!
Haven’t thought about the inflation since 1955?
You’re right, we were not making as much money back then so $1750.00 was a lot of money for some people.
Several years ago I worked with a physicist who had a very practical approach to around-town transportation. He never paid more than $200 or $300 for a car (ICE of course). He never performed maintenance and just drove it until it quit. When it finally did, he’d park it, take the plates off and go buy another one. When I worked with him he had an old Buick he’d been driving for about four years and was beginning to wonder if it would ever die.
I did the same for ,many years. It is a good plan.
While it might not make immediate economic sense to replace a $6000 engine in a $4000 car, it would be more costly overall to replace a paid off car with a $500 monthly car payment for 5-8 years. You’ll be paying $6000 yearly until the last payment is completed
Why not spend the $6000 instead on another used car? It’ll be newer/less driven than the $4000 one that died.
It’s amazing the cost difference – the money you can save by sticking to ~10 year old/ 160K-km cars. I’m currently hauling my family around in a 2012 Mazda 5 van, only 2.5L but with a 6 speed manual transmission! Was only $6500 CDN even in the midst of the covid inflation. I have the 2006 version -5 speed- which actually has less kms on it now because it’s been sitting since virtual work became a thing – I should sell it, I know.
Part of the equation is how much you’ve previously spent on maintenance and repair of the car with the failed engine. Maybe you just put all new expensive tires on it. Or completely redid the brakes. Or replaced the fuel pump. It’s hard to kiss all those investments good-bye even though they haven’t increased the “value” of the car. The reason it’s value isn’t what it might be is that it’s tied to resale value, which has to leave room for profit.
Personally, I’ve never bought a new car or even a mildly used one. I’ll also admit to giving away or junking a car that I’m unwilling to spend any more money on. I’m driving a 2005 Chrysler Town & Country that I paid $1900 for now, 150K miles. The little engine problem light won’t go out.
You are obviously more knowledgeable than I am.
But I built a kit car using an 2nd hand Peugeot XD2 engine. This did 90k miles only required a head gasket. This came with an equally old gearbox and clutch that also did the 90k miles. It was still going strong after I sols it to another nutter.
I have two petrolhead sons, I can’t think why, over the years they’ve destroyed and replaced with 2nd hand both engines and gearboxes. One is driving a 30 year old 200k mile Citroën Xantia. The main issue he’s had was a failure of the alternator and hydraulic pump. It’s still not clear which failure caused the other. The pump was replaced by one canabilised from 3 salvaged pumps, with enough parts to do it again.
So I’d say replacing a shot engine with a salvage one, or engine-gearbox is not as high risk as you might think. When I built the kit-car there were salvage yards that specialised in reconditioned parts for those who preferred to cut out the taking apart a donor vehicle.
If you have an old or high mileage vehicle then in the event of a major failure the decision to replace the entire vehicle or just the failed expensive part is a gamble.
BUT one thing I’d never replace with 2nd hand is a BEV battery.
I have a 2005 Hummer that I bought new. I have been repairing it right along because there is no replacement available, which I couldn’t afford anyway. The engine/drive train slogs along fine. Needed some chassis and bodywork welding, which I did, and it soldiers on. I keep it so I don’t have to plow my 2000 foot driveway so often in the winter. Nothing else has the ground clearance or wheel size to let me punch thru a foot or so of snow. Even a couple thou in repairs is a hell of a lot better than a hundred kilobuck replacement.
You can’t compare doing it yourself with paying someone else Benjamins or Bordens per hour.
Can’t let someone else have all the fun!
+100 on used battery replacements. EVs are cool for the simplicity of the motor and the torque factor but it all hits the fan with the battery – and batteries are a whole universe better than in the days of lead acid or NiMH.
Maybe the generation after the newest solid electrolyte batteries will be enough to mainstream the EVs.
“likewise people are realizing an EV with lots of time on the battery is akin to scrap”
I think that’s why the used EV market is not doing so well.
I wouldn’t touch a used EV with a ten-foot pole.
I’ve never had to replace a fuel tank on a car. I understand that it does happen, but it is extremely rare.
On the other hand, every electric car is going to need a new battery before long.
An engine for an ICE vehicle lasts many times longer than the battery on an EV, and the engine costs a lot less to replace.
Especially when the EV is about. 8 years old
This can easily be offset by filling all empty spaces in the vehicle with lead acid batteries. Then as range reduces, drop off the lead batteries to scrap yards to be recycled.
Sarcasm lives.
I read a letter to the editor many years ago. The writer proposed filling all the empty space in a car with helium. This would make the cars lighter which would save gas and wear and tear on the roads.
I’m waiting for the new Phosphorus DiOxide batteries. Basically a phosphate molecule with an extra Phosphorus atom. They’re really POO-POO
People quickly become aware of the fact that purchasing a used EV precludes them receiving the Government
creditsubsidy (up to $7,500 in the US) afforded to purchasers of a new EV.That is all.
Agreed. If anything it’s the government and industry slowly waking up to the idea that EV’s are simply not worth it – the current batteries are too expensive, heavy, not enough range and wear out too quickly. Maybe good on a toy R/C car but do not scale up well.
I would say that the government and the auto makers each have their plans. The auto makers think that the government is on their side as they move towards manufacturing EVs only. The problem is the government really wants to put everybody afoot, either public transportation or bicycles or walking. They don’t care which. The auto manufacturers think the government is trying to secure them a market of EV buyers and that we will all come to love EVs once that is the only choice. And not unlike that cartoon where the professor is standing in front of the board full of calculations and then it says “and a miracle happens here“ that’s what both parties seem to think it’s going to happen when it comes to the popularity of the EVs and the range and charging issues with EVs. And of course both are wrong.
It is a common conceit amongst leftists, that once the people are forced to adopt to the schemes of the left, that the people will realize how much they actually love these plans.
Those on the left find it impossible to believe that they can ever be wrong. All they need is enough power to force everyone to start living up to the leftists standards.
The East Germans really loved the Trabant.
…😂
We used to joke about GM “Government Motors”.
Nobody is laughing now that the government is actually dictating to the auto makers and public.
You can lead a reluctant consumer to the EV, but you can’t make him buy.
Golf carts come to mind.
As if Big Brother is monitoring my commenting posts to WUWT, this just in to my email this morning from Southern California Edison (SCE):
“With SCE’s Pre-Owned EV Rebate, you may be eligible for up to a $4,000 rebate when you purchase or lease a pre-owned EV.”
See the attached marketing graphic from that email . . . you too can have a very happy life with your significant other if you just spend the money to buy a used EV. Yeah, right.
Think it through though: SCE is barely able, from time to time, to meet current electrical demands from its customer base in SoCal, yet here they encouraging even more demand on grid. Perhaps they want to maximize profits by supplying electricity at times of rolling blackouts?
As always, the truth is out there if you just follow the money.
And of course only black people in the graphic.
And there’s this on MotorBiscuit
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/used-ev-prices-drop-30-2023-going-electric-isnt-going/
Prices for used EVs dropped dramatically, with the Tesla Model 3 leading the pack down 30%. Now compare this to used car prices in general, which have dropped only 4% in the first half of 2023. So used car prices are stabilizing, but used EV prices are beginning to tank.
And they’re not only falling, but prices are falling at an accelerating pace. Should you hold out a couple more months? That’s hard to predict. But used EVs fell almost 17% in March, 24% in April, and almost 29% in May. Now for the first half of the year, prices are just under 30%, according to iSeeCars.
From the article you quoted…
Electrek notes that two forces are affecting used Tesla prices right now. EV supplies are lower because people are keeping them longer and not upgrading to a new model. But used prices are weak because they’re still so close to new Tesla pricing, and financing is higher. As we keep saying, 2023 is a crazy year for car sales. New, used, EV, gasoline, it is a wacky time for the auto industry.
Unfortunately the depreciation on EVs are more in 5 years than the cost of a new ICE plus 5 years of gasoline ($4.00 – $5.00 per gallon with 30 mpg and 8,000 miles per year…$6,670)
Original MSRP Tesla X
KBB Fair Purchase Price (nat’l average) 2017 new vs 2023
75D Sport Utility 4D … $80,625 vs $34,900 (-$46,000)
90D Sport Utility 4D … $94,625 vs $37,600 (-$57,000)
100D Sport Utility 4D … $97,125 vs $40,000 (-$57,000)
P100D Sport Utility 4D . $141,875 vs $46,400 (-$95,000)
That is probably true and expected because all new tech depreciates at a fast rate. But anyone who thinks that EV’s are going away any time soon is in for a rude shock. The biggest selling car in the world this year is the Tesla model Y.
EVs are a valid niche product, as are heat pumps, windmills and solar panels, but they are simply not suitable for mainstream adoption and the fact that all four technologies have to be subsidised to the hilt and are STILL expensive thereafter, shows just how rubbish they are compared with what they are supposed to replace.
No subsidies drove the adoption of the internal combustion engine. It was simply cheaper to run and less polluting than horse drawn vehicles.
People ignore market forces at their peril.
“…. four technologies have to be subsidised to the hilt…. “
And so is oil… if you are going to be honest.
“No subsidies drove the adoption of the internal combustion engine.”
No just the fuel that powered them. Would you feel better if we subsidise electricity?
“It was simply cheaper to run and less polluting than horse drawn vehicles.”
What???? Horses pollute more than burning fossil fuels. Now that is funny right there.
Use your imagination about city streets with thousands of horses leaving road apples to and fro. Tall order in your case but give it a whirl anyway…..
Simon never notices when he steps in shit. I hope he takes his shoes off at the doorstop.
No imagination needed when visiting Michigan’s Mackinac Island . . . .
A strong eau de equine is present throughout the town. At one point of our visit it struck me that pretty much every town in America probably smelled like this until the early 20th century when the iceman and milkman gave up their horse drawn wagons.
My paternal grandfather drove a team of horses on the island for years. He had golden colored draft horses. Beautiful animals.
I think Mike Rowe did a show from there.
Fossil fuel POLLUTE the biosphere FAR LESS than wind and solar.
Fossil Fuels actually ENHANCE the biosphere by providing much needed CO2.
And yes, if horses were to replace current fossil fuel for transport..
.. cities would be knee deep in horse ***t.
You are obviously an inner-city know-nothing, living in a padded basement… and have zero clue about the cost of up-keep of horses.
In first world countries there are basically no “subsidies” paid to fossil fuels.
Oil and coal are, in fact, TAXED to the wazoo… providing massive income to governments.
Wind and solar give absolutely nothing to society, just take, take, take…
The only payments to fossil fuels in developing countries are so the people can actually afford to use them.
Are you so disgustingly anti-human that you would see people go without all the MASSIVE BENEFITS of fossil fuels ?
“.. cities would be knee deep in horse ***t.”
and I’ve no doubt you would be rolling about in it.
Very good fertiliser….
“Very good fertiliser….”
Not if it is up over neck high. !
Ohhhh, but the nitrogen! Heh heh.
Cow Manure is better and provides Leather, Dairy and Beef as a byproduct.
Sloppy though….
Not once it dries throughout the day. Easy to pile up too.
People like Simon, love their governments. They love the idea big intrusive ineffective over regulating governments. They also look at all money as being the government’s money. They don’t seem to understand that tax write offs for things like research and development, exploration, finding new sources for oil, purchasing leases on lands that don’t pan out and other investments made to continue the business, are not subsidies, but write offs for tax credits that many businesses enjoy. But when you view all money as being the government’s money, then you can change the narrative to be tax subsidies, instead of right offs, to business taxes and the cost of business.
You have obviously never heard of the Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894 where there was a concern about the levels of pollution caused in cities by horse dung. While this story may be mythical, removal of horse dung was a serious problem in cities before the arrival of the motor car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_horse_manure_crisis_of_1894
“No just the fuel that powered them.”
Did history start the day you were born?
What fuel subsidies existed when my grandfather bought his first Ford Model-T?
Most of the gasoline and oil “subsidies” at the time of the adoption of ICE consisted of shorter depreciation schedules for drilling expenses and depletion of oil reservoirs. Not the direct subsidies wind, solar, and EV’s are getting today. The investment in getting the oil and gas *still* had to be fronted by the oil companies.
Is it too much trouble for you to list those subsidies?
Nope
https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/reforming-global-fossil-fuel-subsidies-how-the-united-states-can-restart-international-cooperation/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_subsidies
Enough?
Repeating the same disproven lies, every time you are challenged does seem to be the limits of your mental abilities.
There are no tax deductions available to oil companies that aren’t available to other companies. Depletion is merely a form of depreciation.
“There are no tax deductions available to oil companies that aren’t available to other companies.”
But… Some of the subsidies the FF industry receive are specific to them alone. Governments subsidize the exploration and drilling activities of fossil fuel companies. That’s pretty specific.
And how many other companies explore and drill?
Are you actually trying to claim that since no other companies drill for oil, oil companies shouldn’t be allowed to deduct the expenses involved with drilling for oil.
Are you really that desperate to make a fool of yourself.
All companies are allowed to deduct legitimate business expenses. For an oil company, drilling is a legitimate expense. Just because there are special regulations to cover special circumstances, does not make that deduction a subsidy.
Also, the claim that CO2 is causing problems and that failing to tax CO2 for the costs of these problems is completely bogus and only someone who doesn’t believe in science could push it.
There is no increase in violent weather, there is no increase in wild fires, there is no increase in floods or droughts. There is no increase in deaths from heat.
The only measurable change that is being caused by CO2 is the fact that the planet is greening.
CO2 is a net benefit, and as such should be subsidized, not taxed.
Yes, eco-communists making up numbers to show how bad fossil fuels are is just plain propaganda and actually lying with statistics.
No, you need to list them yourself here in a comment – once you start listing them out you’ll see how stupid or propagandist those organizations are about spreading the lie that fossil fuels are subsidized. Governments tax the fuel and the companies to death, and the industry still manages to generate a lot of wealth (jobs and dividends and sales for suppliers) in spite of all the government interference whereas wind and solar are welfare cases constantly with their hands out looking for more money to flush down the toilet.
Simon has declared that allowing oil companies to deduct the cost of drilling for oil, is a subsidy.
You can’t be serious with this list. It is a list of “talk-it-up” advocacy smear articles without examination of anything, much like the “Exxon Knew” trademark hit job.
Simon:
Example: mining lithium. These are not unique subsidies.
2-3 million people [mostly women & children] worldwide die every year from indoor air pollution. They don’t have gas stoves or gas heat, so they burn dried cow dung, wood or crop resude to cook &/or heat their homes. It’s immoral to restrict their access to FF.
I did not review your last 2 references.
Troll alert!
Are you the advocacy troll type or Russian type?
Getting the same tax deduction that every other company gets is not a subsidy. The lie that oil is subsidized has been refuted everytime it gets dragged out.
Yawn…. See above
Yawn. NONE are subsidies paid up front .
They are tax benefits. AFTER the massive taxation has been taken from them, they get a bit back.
NOT A SUBSIDY !
Not tax benefits – tax write offs – or better to say business expenses and depreciation.
“The cost of doing business”
“You got to spend money to make money”
Whereas almost all but the best sited non-fossil fuel plant (I’m not saying “renewable” anymore because that would be a lie) or “farm” 🤮 could not get built without promises subsidies like guaranteed high ¢/kwh rates, and even getting paid to turn off when their power isn’t needed.
I agree, reading the same discredited claims for the umpteenth time is quite boring.
No, you list them out so you can see how stupid you are for believing their lies.
I’ve seen in some tallies of “fossil fuel costs” that they even add in traffic accidents as if self driving AI is built into the lithium and no properly fueled car can have accident avoidance tech.
See if the list subtracts out all the taxes and royalties paid to the government.
The ONLY “Subsidy” that OIL/NGas or Coal gets is the depreciation of the value of the Reservoir of the well for tax purposes for County, State, Federal TAXES. Even Garbage dumps get a “Subsidy” for filling up the “Reservoir”, Valley, Quarry-pit, etc, with Garbage, for their taxes.
Bullshite….. See above
You, and your OPINIONS, are obviously a result of the misinformation spread by the Progressives and there quest for Socialism pushing the Green New Deal and Collapse of Capitalism to pave the way for Socialism. .
In furtherance of educating you, a review of any of the Electric Utilities annual report will show you that Fifty (50) percent of their expensed is not fuel but City, County, State, Federal taxes. Worse many states then add on the state sales tax to the price at the pump.
Go to the library, ask the Liberian for the local electric utility annual report and get educated and remove the indoctrination from your brain. Same for all fossil fuels.
Depletion is the same as depreciation. They get to take credit for the fact that the thing they own is becoming less valuable over time.
Without depletion/depreciation, companies could write off the purchase cost in the year the expense is realized. Instead they have to wait years in order to get the full value of the write off.
We DO subsidize electricity…
What do you think makes Wind and Solar generation viable?
Don’t believe it’s subsidies??
Why do wind projects get cancelled when subsidies are insufficient???
“We DO subsidize electricity…
What do you think makes Wind and Solar generation viable?”
Not without olympic level complaining here.
And what subsidies were given for gasoline?
The biggest expense for cities was collecting the horse crap, and in coastal cities, dumping it offshore. Inland cities dumped it the river. Yeah, no pollution.
Ability to declare loss of capitol for the depletion of the well when they file there income taxes. Same way people claim a loss in value of their stock. or losses at the casino.
Subsidies for gasoline??? At $1.52/L here in southern Ontario? It was recently over a 1.70, so it might seem like a deal. Most of the price is taxes and royalties at the wellhead, so how can you say it’s subsidized?
The only places in the world where fuel is or was subsidized is developing countries, especially those that export oil, so that the locals can afford it and be productive.
I’m sure that not taxing oil companies to pay for the costs of the non-existent increase in violent weather.
Standard business tax deductions for oil companies are not subsidies, Simon.
Every business gets those.
Simon likes to claim that since only oil companies get to deduct the cost of drilling for oil, that makes such deductions a subsidy.
I’m sure Simon would also claim that deducting the cost of robots needed to build electric cars are a subsidy that is only available to electric car companies.
Yes, subsidies are when the government gives people money from the U.S. Treasury.
Business tax deductions are when businesses give less of their money to the government in the form of taxes.
A *huge* difference. Lost on some people.
Heat pumps are going to drop in favor with the new “WiFi” Thermostats that get installed with them. As I worked for the local Electric utility and got a discount for electricity, I had a heat pump installed 20+ years ago. 10 years ago the utility added a cutoff relay to increase available power on HOT/COLD days when the demand was high. That ment that I had no AC/Heat when they shutdown the Heat-pump. With WiFi Thermostats the Utility controls every WiFi thermostat and their power load. Make hot days miserable and Cold days even worse.
Tell us when you buy your second hand Tesla Y.
Should be able to pick one up for basically nothing in couple of years. ! 😉
In fact, due to the hazardous waste implications of a worn-out battery pack, used car dealers might even pay you to take a second-hand Tesla off their lot!
When you buy new tires, you are required to pay a recycling fee to cover the disposal of the tires when they wear out.
Sounds like we are going to have to start adding such surcharges for EVs.
“Should be able to pick one up for basically nothing in couple of years.”
That is hopefully the plan.
“That is hopefully the plan.”
And let it sit in the driveway as a virtue-seeking social status symbol, ..
.. while you try to save up for the battery replacement…
Nah, won’t need to save up for a new battery (EV fuel tank). The first test charging to verify the viability of the existing EV fuel tank will be sufficient to ignite the External Combustion Engine
“And let it sit in the driveway as a virtue-seeking social status symbol, ..”
Clearly you have not had the privilege/joy of driving one.
It is a privilege to drive an EV?
Who knew! . . . and here I was, thinking that it would instead be a mandate from the State of California, if not the US Federal Government, to do so by 2035 or so.
It was/is not just the unsightliness, aroma, and the cost to remove horse manure that helped drive a rapid and irreversible switch (the cost to buy, own, equipment and use a horse was very expensive) to ICE vehicles in cities, it was the health effects of the manure dust launched into the air by clomping horses (to be inhaled by people), and well as the diseases transmitted by the hordes of flies that the manure attracted.
Horses have their own health problems. The Great Epizootic of 1872 spread equine influenza across all of North America, temporarily incapacitating every horse. Deliveries couldn’t be made (no beer down at the corner), fires couldn’t be fought, everything that’s done by trucks today came to a halt. The Panic of 1874 was a result not of financial skullduggery but instead horses with coughs and runny noses.
You are talking to the wrong guy. I love horse shit. Collect it for the garden on a monthly basis. Free fertiliser….
So you don’t care about the health problems that were caused by horse shit?
Beyond that, I see that Simon is proudly displaying his sill at innumerancy.
You actually believe that since a little bit of manure is good for the garden, 10,000 times as much manure is going to be 10,000 times better.
“all new tech depreciates at a fast rate”
Can you show some proof of this assertion?
It only occurs when newer models are substantially superior to older models.
This was true of computers, it has never been true of electric cars.
As always, Simon is just making it up as he goes.
Yawn….
This car is significantly superior to the previous generation of EV.
Significantly????
I see Simon is displaying his ignorance yet again.
In 10 years, computers went from 80286 processors running at 2 MHz, with less than a Meg of memory and 16Meg hard drives,
to Pentium processors running at 100MHz, 32MByte main memory and 500MB hard drives.
You want to anyone to believe that adding a few bells and whistles to the dashboard is the equivalent of that?
£35K ($57K CDN) is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a car. What have you got for under $30K?
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/build-price/corolla?series=COR&model=BPRBEC&year=2024
No subsidies for rich people’s toys!!!
Yawn… colour TV’s. Computers, ICE cars…. the list is endless.
Is there any subject that Simon is not eager to display his ignorance?
Yes those have improved, but the time frame for all of them is completely different.
“The biggest selling car in the world this year is the Tesla model Y.”
That statement is easily falsified with a 3-minute Web search. Here is a reference to a great summary (dated 20 July 2023) explaining exactly why this is an outright falsehood, or at best at half-truth:
https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44600661/is-tesla-model-y-the-worlds-best-selling-car-nope-not-even-close/
As stated in this article:
“. . . the company [Tesla] groups Model Y production and sales with Model 3 production and sales. Tesla delivered 412,180 Models 3/Y globally in the first quarter, and we can’t find the breakout among the two.
“We reached out to Toyota for Corolla numbers, and the automaker reports it sold 740,561 Corollas worldwide in the first quarter of this year, counting all versions including the Cross. That’s about 75% more than Tesla, even if you count the Model 3 in with the Model Y. Sorry, Elon, not even close.“
(my bold emphasis added)
The truth is simple, Simon.
Mr. So: Thank you for debunking this lie, the second time in about a week I saw an EV promoter tell this same lie. The other liar went so far as to tout the Tesla Y as “the only american made car since the Model T to lead the globe in sales.” I wondered if he ever heard of a jeep (in WWII, they sold pretty good globally). The EV is the trifecta of awful- 1) it began as the vanity project of enviros, there was absolute zero demand for the EV, it was created by gov’t. 2) Buying an EV, even an “american made” Tesla, is like planting a fruit tree in the gardens of the Chinese Communist Party; and 3) EV promoters like Simon simply make it up as they go. For instance, EV owners are holding onto them longer is not because the owner loves the car too much to trade it in, it is because they can’t get any value on the EV trade-in. That is consistent with the facts reported. I never wanted to own an EV, but the constant drone of lies in favor of EVs makes me ill.
Excellent comments! Thank you for the follow-up.
Google … What is the biggest selling new car in 2023?
https://businessday.ng/transport/article/see-the-worlds-5-best-selling-cars-in-q1-2023/#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%20the%20feat%20was%20not,in%20the%20world%20in%202023.
The first hit you get is Tesla Model Y. Now I’m sure you can play with numbers and fiddle things here and there…. and even if you are right it is not quite number one, the fact still remains that for many, EV’s are now the car of choice, more so than even 5 years ago.
Yes, businessday is playing very loose with the number, gullible twerp.
It supports what Simon wants to believe, therefore it can’t be wrong.
Twerp? At least if you are going to use a putdown find one that is not kindergarten level.
Irony is lost on Simon.
According to Kelly Blue Book the top vehicle sales (as of 7-17-23)
# 1. Ford F-Series
Total Units Sold: 212,516
#2. Chevrolet Silverado
Total Units Sold: 140,076
#3. Ram Pickup
Total Units Sold: 117,699
#4. Tesla Model Y
Total Units Sold: 105,500
#5. Toyota RAV4
Total Units Sold: 102,313
Biggest selling new car in 2023 to date is the Ford F-series
Maybe in the US but not globally.
https://businessday.ng/transport/article/see-the-worlds-5-best-selling-cars-in-q1-2023/#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%20the%20feat%20was%20not,in%20the%20world%20in%202023.
Hmmmm, strange argument. Last time I checked the US WAS part of the Global Environment.
Others have already pointed out the problems with your numbers.
Simon is still intellectually incapable of questioning any data that backs what he wants to believe.
He is also incapable of reading any data that refutes what he wants to believe.
The top selling motorcycle in the world is a Honda….so does that mean in a few years we will all be riding motorcycles?
Looking at the use of motorcycles in the EU, 2nd, 3rd world countries it is highly likely that the wreck of the economy caused by the progressives and Biden to achieve Socialism in the US will make motorcycles an important part of transportation, soon.
No. We will be driving EV’s
Only a select few will be driving EVs. Congressmen, Senators, Presidents and Diplomats will be driving ICE Suburbans their subordinates will be driving EVs and the hoi polloi will be walking
Apparently despite that fact Tesla has still never made a profit- it basically survives on subsidies.
“it basically survives on subsidies.”
Like fossil fuels.
WRONG, as always.
Fossil fuels PAY a whole lot of tax, and get some minor tax breaks.
These are NOT subsidies. !
Why are your comments ALWAYS based on ignorance?
It doesn’t matter how many times his lies are refuted, Simon clings to them like a man who is drowning in a sea of his own ignorance.
The only reason why electrics are “popular” is because of subsidies and mandates.
I believe you have confused growth rates with total sales.
Only because Tesla dropped the price by over $8,000 after over producing last year.
Which is what will happen to EV’s going forward. The price will drop.
EVs are not computer memory chips.
“EVs are not computer memory chips.”
But they are chocked full of them. Had a great example of it today. Lazy fossil fuel driver clipped my car then drove off. The chips in the many cameras my Tesla had filmed it all. Boom…. another criminal busted.
I hope the collision didn’t damage the battery.
A damaged battery makes it prone to catch on fire.
Be careful Simon. Park your Tesla outside, away from the house, or anything you don’t want burned.
It’s better to be safe than sorry.
A few hundred dollars worth of chips, vs $15K in battery.
Yea sure, EVs are going to drop in price. Is there any nonsense that you won’t just believe, but proselytize?
“The price will drop.”
LOL
As the price of mining the battery ingredients sky-rockets.
You really do live in a little fantasy la-la world, don’t you. !
Thank you for pointing that out – lithium is not getting any cheaper, in fact nothing in the EV car. I don’t have anything against EVs, and hopefully future battery chemistry will make them competitive on a level playing field. But that is only in the future.
“lithium is not getting any cheaper”
This is why lithium skyrocketed 10x over two years and is critical to national security | Kitco News
but somehow, the unicorns will make cheap EV batteries. 😉
Simon believes what he wants to believe. Data isn’t relevant. Or wanted.
Do you have any evidence for this? Or is merely another thing you were told to believe.
Yep. Want some?
“ Want some?”
Here’s some evidence that lithium batteries will get cheaper….. 😉
This is why lithium skyrocketed 10x over two years and is critical to national security | Kitco News
Isn’t that implied? Or do you not do anything until someone tells yo.
This is why lithium skyrocketed 10x over two years and is critical to national security | Kitco News
Of course EV prices will drop…. 😉
In your mind only…
But that is NEVER even close to reality.
And idea how many of their reported ESTIMATED 190,500 sales have seen actual production and delivery?
173456
EVs sort of make sense for the rich in China.
China doesn’t have a lot of petrol for expansion, or a lot of big petrol/diesel vehicles…
… but what they do have is COAL, and COAL fired electricity.
And when you look at the issues with Chinese EVs, it doesn’t surprise me that Tesla Y has good sales in China.
But any pretence that it is lowering global CO2 emissions… is just la-la-land stupidity.
Here’s the depreciation on the 2017 Toyota Corolla for comparison…
L Sedan 4D
$19,385 $13,604 dep <$6000
LE Sedan 4D
$19,820 $13,574 dep $6,000
LE Eco Sedan 4D
$20,220 $13,185 dep $7,000
SE Sedan 4D
$21,330 $14,278 dep $7,000
XLE Sedan 4D
$22,710 $14,566 dep $8,000
XSE Sedan 4D
$23,565 $15,863 dep $8,000
50th Anniversary Special Edition Sedan 4D
$23,635 $14,704 dep $9,000
Depreciation definitely identical to the Teslas X ($9,000 = $95,000)
Failed Econ 101, didn’t you? If used Tesla supplies are weak because people are keeping them longer, then the price should go up. And since the price is low for used Teslas, people should be buying them. Did it occur to you that maybe people are keeping them longer because they can’t afford the difference on the cost of a new vehicle vs what they would get for their trade-in? And people aren’t buying relatively inexpensive used Teslas because they don’t see any value in the purchase?
Mr. Nice: Thanks for putting the mark on that one, as well. Simon is not misinformed, he is mendacious.
Hey Simon, what do you do with a rechargeable torch that only lasts five minutes before going flat again?? Good luck trying to sell it.
By the time I need a new battery(minimum of 10 years I reckon) there will be replacement ones for half the cost.
The little fantasy la-la land just keeps going.
Hilarious.
Simon believes that CO2 is going to kill us all.
He’ll believe any fantasy that is convenient to his political goals.
Not necessarily, 10 years from now we are liable to reach Peak Lithium with all the EV mandates and Solar requiring Battery Storage so you can use the power when needed rather when generated as well as utility scale mega battery pack installations to buffer the inherent randomness of renewable generation.
Peak Lithium will drive UP prices of.replacement battery packs.
To bad real world data does not support your wish that your battery last 10 years.
The price of batteries at the store is not going down, why do you believe that the price of your battery is going to go down?
“They still do not seem to have worked out that EVs are utterly useless for most private drivers, who will refuse to make the switch until forced to.”
I think that’s a teeny-weeny bit of exaggeration, wouldn’t you agree? (wink)
No! 🙂
EVs require off-road charging at home. Otherwise you are spending your time getting the car to work rather than getting home. Most people don’t have that. A substantial number cannot get that even if they had the spare money to fit it.
EVs require greater capital expenditure up front as they are so expensive. Most people are not so rich as to ignore the cost of living crisis.
EVs require an alternative form of transport for the occasional long trip (seeing family at Christmas, for instance). Most people do not have a spare car and cannot afford to rent one as required. Public transport is unreliable (especially around Christmas).
In short, EVs are only suitable for use as a second car and then, only for those with large dwellings and a lot of spare money.
Which means they are utterly useless for most private drivers.
To be fair if someone gave me a 100 mile range EV and all I had to pay for was the electricity, I could indeed manage to use it as daily transport for 90% of my journeys. And it wouldn’t cost me any more than my current vehicle.
Unfortunately they want me to pay a massive premium for it. And still maintain it.
Simply isn’t cost effective.
I am not interested in detailed arguments about how good or bad it might be, Just in how much every mile I drive costs me. And how long it takes me to get where I have to be.
I don’t think anyone would make an arguement against given the parameters you laid out. But like every other issue with regards to “renewables” and “green” energy production the problems compound on the margins not under “normal” circumstances. Proponents think an acceptable response is “tough titty said the Kitty”, I’ll guess that as push comes to shove down the road that response is not going to fly with the public.
That assumes the “public” will retrieve their testicals from the Leftist X-mob and government control freaks.
Would be useful for a quick trip to the local shops.
But so would a golf buggy.
You’d be dead in no time if you tried going shopping in a golf cart where I live.
Leo,
If someone gave you an EV ‘You could manage to use it as daily transport…’, but would you want to?
Cons: Car Insurance; takes up space in the driveway (or garage if you are brave); homeowners insurance; cost of plug installation; others that I can’t think of.
Pros: Sell it and use the cash for something more attractive; or keep it and get decent mileage cost.
Give me one and it gets sold. The trade-off is not there.
I saw an article the other day saying EV car insurance was about 20 percent more expensive than insuring an ICE vehicle.
I think those costs will go higher if EV’s turn out to be fire-prone.
An underground parking garage full of EV’s looks to me like a disaster waiting to happen. It might look that way to insurers, too.
Useless if well out of their price range.
Quite simply..
They have run out of virtue-seekers. !
Raspberries!
Genuine question: What equivalent is there for EVs to the ‘FSH’ (Full Service History) that can and does come with more ordinary (ICE) vehicles?
Especially for the battery
What a second-hand buyer would want to know and SHOULD be told is:
Because Li-Ion batteries:
## As rechargeable batteries go, Li-Ions are incredibly good but not indestructible
Next: They should all be fitted with some sort of vibration sensor/logger.
e.g. As is inside every mobile phone these days also pedometers and other ‘fitness and exercise monitors’
Because those batteries are intricate/sensitive/complex pieces of mechanical technology and thus extremely sensitive to vibration and shock.
Which is exactly what they’ll endure every working minute on UK roads = rapidly deteriorating pot-hole riddled bombsites as as they are.
Even before the hideous crate has been driven over kerbs and pavements or been in any sort of bump, crash or wreck
In fact, putting something like a half-ton lump of high-tech in a car is madness to start with – even before you hang it off the underneath into a relentless blizzard of water-spray, salt, dust/grit and assorted road debris.
(Watch next time a Tesla overtakes you – heavy-looking bloated lumps with virtually Zero Ground Clearance)
If an EV goes over a ‘tie-down ratchet strap‘ as used on almost every truck these days and the metal part of it hits the battery, you and the car’s battery are history – while hundreds of (just) those things fall off trucks daily here in the UK
Good points. BUT.
A usage profile can and should be stored within any battery in NVRAM (flash) but there are in the end only two parameters that affect current performance, and that is current capacity, and battery turnround efficiency, both of which can be measured relatively simply.
Many of the other points you raise are ultimately addressable – people said there was no way that sophisticated digital electronics belonged under the hood of a car, and yet there it is. And it is also present in shells fired from artillery guns with lord knows what acceleration profile.
Batteries are not intricate/sensitive/complex pieces of mechanical technology at all. They are certainly no way as complicated as an IC engine. They are ultimately about as sophisticated as a fuel tank. What is likely to be complex is shielding them from harm, because there is no doubt that carrying 400 miles of energy in ANY form is dangerous in a crash.
I do not see any if the safety issues that you raise being insurmountable. The insurmountable issues are all about battery performance, cost and environmental impact of lithium mining.
A fuel tank is a hollow shell with a collapsible bladder and input and output tubes. An EV battery has multiple cells plus a cooling system and electronic connections. There’s a big difference in complexity and cost.
Just imagining an EV put through a crusher.. !!!!!
After they remove the battery and the motors and the copper. Just as they are designed to be easily manufactured, they are designed to be easily disassembled and recycled.
Then how come nobody recycles EV batteries at commercial scale?
Electric vehicle (EV) battery recycling is the process of reusing and recycling batteries from electric vehicles. Instead of trashing the batteries, auto recyclers send them to specialist firms that dismantle the packs and break them down into their different materials
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/
Please try to keep up.
What is the cost and do the companies make money doing it? I would hazard a guess no. If it was yes they would be shouting it from the rooftops.
And if it was “no” they wouldn’t be doing it.
Unfortunately it still isn’t very efficient – only about 16% cobalt and 6% nickel and lithium are being recovered at the moment and that is by energy intensive and environmentally damaging means. We are decades away from it being a viable industry, at best – at worst we’ll likely never recover more than 20-30% of the materials used.
Mr. broker: It’s really hard to keep up with the blizzard of lies touting EVs. Your car and driver article only shows alot of investment, but no result of an actual recycling of batteries. It says they are going to feed the batteries into a grinder??!! A tesla battery???
I continue to marvel at the naivete you folks display.
I am not an expert on the business case for recycling EV batteries but I doubt that “alot of investment” wouldn’t be happening if profits were not expected. Time will tell.
Your comment implied that recycling is happening, not “time will tell.” Alot of investment went into tulips at one time. You are not an expert is quite an understatement. The more you comment, the more obvious it gets.
A lot of investment has gone into companies that are losing money hand over fist building electric cars.
Why do they invest, they are counting on the huge subsidies as well as the government mandates to turn these money losers into money fountains.
In case you didn’t notice the article didn’t say anyone was actually recycling on a commercial scale. People have announced plans and have videos of their proof of concept. I have not seen one company that actually has recycled a large number of batteries. If you can find one, with real numbers, let us know.
See my reply to paul courtney above.
So, based on your reply to me, your answer is that you can’t find one, not one. “Please do try to keep up” implies what exactly?
You’ve gone from a definitive claim that recycling was already happening on an industrial scale, to a defensive “time will tell”.
You simply can’t bring yourself to admit that your original claim was wrong, can you.
As to “time will tell”, we already have data, and the data shows that recycling will never be cost effective. It’s quite possible that government will have to start subsidizing recovery attempts in order to clean up the mess being caused by earlier subsidies in electric cars.
Can’t you say the same thing about ICE vehicles? IOW, what’s your point re: “once they remove the battery and the motors and the copper”???
Putting an EV through a crusher after all the EV stuff has been removed is no different than putting and ICE car through a crusher.
Except that the scrap yard has nowhere to dispose of the dead battery.
It’s kind of amazing that we haven’t seen daily headlines about all these problems with one of the best-selling cars in the US.
I wonder why?
If you read only the mass media you don’t know about Hunter Biden’s laptop, Joe Biden’s daily gaffes, and all the foreign money shoveled into Biden family shell companies either.
You need to broaden your reading. Mine is mostly mass media and I know all about those things — The Wall Street Journal covers them pretty well.
My brother only watches network news and reads big newspapers but not the WSJ. He knows nothing about those stories.
So … maybe you could give him a subscription to WSJ for his birthday.
Every once in awhile we see something.
Non-Tesla EV owners should plan to charge at home and be home every night. Non-Tesla charging stations are at best unreliable. Tesla made strategically located high-speed charging stations a fundamental part of the product. Other manufacturers largely ignored charging stations. Tesla also sells and installs home charging stations.
Tesla announced that it is opening its charging stations to other brands. I don’t have any details on those.
1) Solar power doesn’t work at night.
2) Wind speeds drop after the sun goes down.
So the current lower electricity costs at night won’t last much longer.
Charging a EV in the garage at night is a good way to flambe` your family.
It’ a lie that it is the best selling car.
The total number of EVs on the road is a tiny fraction of the total number of ICE vehicles on the road.
The EVs are also much, much younger on average.
Once corrected so you are comparing something in the ball park of apples to apples, you see an disturbingly high number of headlines regarding electric vehicles coming to a bad end.
If I wrote that (I don’t recall but maybe I did), I wrote it about Tesla — which is the best selling electric car.
What are those numbers? It seems like I see news about ICE vehicle crashes and accidents every day even though they are so common as to not be news.
And with respect to “electric vehicles” I consider Tesla to be the only manufacturer that is really 100% in the EV business. All others sell very few EVs and are more or less still doing market and product research with their current products.
Nobody said anything about crashes.
What is it about EV fanatics that causes them to change the subject rather than admit they were wrong.
Yep we do see news about car crashes daily, drivers are inattentive and easily distracted. But we seldom see news reports of Internal Combustion Engine vehicles spontaneously combusting without an accident. Something EVs are famous for.
You missed
Has the car ever been in an accident, no matter how small ? off what a second hand buyer would want to know and SHOULD be told.
According to the ads, CarFax covers accidents.
My 2023 Corolla got rear-ended at less than 6 months on the road.
CarFax does not know about it.
2022
Who could possibly have foreseen that people don’t want to buy a second-hand used battery?
Wrong.
https://www.greenpowerforkliftbatteries.com/ohio-forklift-batteries-new-used-refurbished-recycled/
And they’re not just in Ohio.
Rovingbroker, that article is about lead-acid batteries for forklifts, not Li-Ion for EV’s
His goal is distraction and noise, not edification.
And I work very hard at it. I try my best to be more “edification” and less distraction and noise. I do this by quoting and linking to sources … sources that know more about this topic than I ever will.
Mr. broker: And your “hard” work is utterly wasted. You post a link to lead battery recycling when you are trying to persuade us that EV batteries are being recycled. Nobody here is taken in by your pro-Tesla comments, or your promo links. But thanks for confirming what your comments show- you know less than most.
A link to an unrelated site is distraction, not edification.
I’m not surprised that you didn’t know the difference.
I guess you need to be more specific in your comments.
Recycling lithium-ion batteries from electric vehicleshttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5
More than you or I ever want to know about recycling lithium-ion batteries.
Mr. broker: Mr. Martin was quite specific, so was the article. Nature is not a credible source. Thanks for another distraction.
rovingbroker, your position isn’t supported by your references.
As paul courtney pointed out I specifically replied to the article you referenced.
And your article from Nature is about how difficult it is to recycle Li-Ion batteries.
The quote you provide is from this article:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05752-3
“Ten years left to redesign lithium-ion batteries”where the authors say:
“Reserves of cobalt and nickel used in electric-vehicle cells will not meet future demand.”
And:
“Electric vehicles need powerful, light and affordable batteries. The best bet is commercial lithium-ion cells — they are relatively compact and stable. But they are still too bulky and expensive for widespread use.”
Everybody knew what he was talking about.
Your attempts to be cute, just show you to be someone who prefers juvenile behavior.
It is a ridiculous joke to compare the non-existent infrastructure for servicing/refurbishing Tesla EV batteries with the existing infrastructure and numerous commercial companies in the US offering servicing/refurbishing of forklift batteries.
Re: non-existent infrastructure …
These things take time. We live in a capitalist for-profit nation full of clever well-educated people … Elon Musk for example. Who, by the way, is making bags of money selling electric cars and rocket rides and internet connecting satellites. Not someone I would bet against.
Predicting the future is hard but as Mark Twain never said, ““History doesn’t repeat itself but it often rhymes,”
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/01/12/history-rhymes/
Ummmm . . . right. Let’s see, the first Tesla EVs started rolling off the production line in 2008. That’s 15 years ago.
In that time, why hasn’t your admirable Elon Musk (BTW, someone I would bet against) come up with a way to refurbish/recycle the battery packs used in his company’s catalogue of vehicles offered for sale?
Does Musk lack an “environmental conscience”, or are the associated technology challenges just beyond his capabilities?
Well … look what I found …
Tesla aims to recycle batteries at all its Gigafactory locations
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-recycling-ramp-2022-impact-report-targets/
The key phrase here is “Our goal is to develop a safe recycling process”, that means it doesn’t exist at the moment but they have plans to create the process. I refer you to Mr. Tyson’s remark regarding plans.
Either you didn’t bother to read the piece you quote, or weren’t able to understand it.
There is no recycling at present, just ambitional statements that if the faithful will continue to believe (and perhaps click their heels together), recycling will someday become real.
roving,
Get back to me when Tesla (aka Elon Musk) “aims” for battery recycling transition into reality. See the words in your supplied quote: “intend”, “goal”, “expect”?
In case you didn’t know (I think very likely), here are some of the things that Musk “aimed to do” which never happened:
— convert all Tesla supercharging stations to use only solar power
— install stations across the US that would enable quick plug-out/plug-in replacement of the battery packs in Tesla vehicles so as to eliminate the need for recharging the batteries on long road trips
— produce a Tesla Roadster with compressed gas-powered rockets
— construct a Hyperloop transit system connecting Washington, DC, to Baltimore, MD (as well as Hyperloop transportation systems in other places, both above and below ground, designed for average speeds of 600 mph)
— construct an underground “freeway”-like transportation system using electric-powered “skates” (aka “sleds”) to efficiently move people in their own cars at speeds of 125–150 mph . . . initially targeted for the Los Angeles, CA, area
— have Solar City produce specialty PV tiles customized for “Solar Roof” home installations.
In the meantime, it’s OK with me if you want to hold your breath.
Actually Musk is loosing money on selling cars, he’s making money on subsidies. As to his rockets, you are confusing Virgin Atlantic with SpaceX. Beyond that, he still isn’t making money at it.
RB sounds a lot like your average socialist. It’s going to work one of these days, just give us more time.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/31/investing/tesla-profitability/index.html
And I don’t care how he made it — you play the cards you’re delt.
As to rockets — it’s the satellites that are the interesting and profit-making businesses.
You are, as usual, completely ignoring all of the subsidies that are paid directly to EV manufacturers.
As to rockets, so what? Satellites aren’t the business that Musk is in.
Mr. broker: Thanks for letting us know your distant relationship with truth. Mr. Martin took you apart, your article is not LiOn batteries at all, but you simply ignore his takedown and move on to Mr. So, you can elide with “it takes time”.
Another EV salesman.
I love this guys faith. He just knows that if we give it enough time, a new form of physics will be invented and things that are currently impossible, will not only become possible, but will be cheap, easy, and ubiquitous.
Those are probably lead acid batteries. They certainly aren’t Li-Ion.
Mr. W: We didn’t need to read the article to know it, those old battery recycle operators have been around this area of Ohio for more than fifty years. Mr. broker is just another EV enthusiast full of bad information.
Funny how history repeats itself. In the early days of the automobile there were quite a few electric vehicles on sale, with exactly the same drawbacks as modern EV’s, though at least they didn’t self-combust. Within a year or two they had essentially disappeared as the internal combustion engine took over.
There were a devil of a sight more horses, and they disappeared even faster…
Henry Ford’s wife drove an EV because it was quiet.
And she didn’t have to crank it to start it. That was one of the main selling features of early EVs. And then automatic starters began appearing in ICE cars….
Electric start in the Model T for 1917 and the sales took off.😊
And that transition happened for two primary reasons:
1) the overall convenience afforded by ICE vehicles once the gas station infrastructure was in place, as compared to the hassle of charging those early EVs (sound familiar?), and
2) the tremendous increase in driving range-before-having-to-recharge/refuel afforded by ICE vehicles as compared to those early EVs (sound familiar?).
An EV infrastructure will not be built in a day either.
Gas stations made money. They proliferated and they were maintained because they made money.
Free plug-ins don’t make money.
Fee plug-ins don’t make money.
Plug-ins are not maintained.
Plug-ins have not proliferated.
You just have to have faith. If you don’t keep clapping your hands, the fairies will die, err, I mean the charging stations will be built.
It will never be built. The national electric grid would need to be at least 3 times bigger and there probably isn’t enough copper on the planet to do that to the US and not even close worldwide.
Mr. So: Before gas stations, I believe folks bought gasoline in cans (liek standard oil) at the store. ICE cars were clearly superior to any EV of the era, gas stations merely filled a demand that just kept growing, the infrastructure followed the demand. Funny that EV salesmaen like our rovingbroker friend refuse to get this, if EVs were in demand, the infrastructure would follow. Instead, in a generation those EV chargers will need to be decommissioned, or used to tie your horse.
To be fair, EVs managed to hang on until the invention of the electric starter for cars.
Where are all the environmentalists clamouring for EV mining to be stopped? They are not even green? If you want to make EVS try mining the raw materials without fossils! China must love the West’s dedication for self destruction of their economies whilst building more coal stations.
Where are they? They’re out there, protesting the excesses of our technological society and doing that with their cell phones all while taking selfies or gluing themselves to paintings or taking a dump on cop cars to protest the excess of modern life. All the while enjoying those excesses. They certainly don’t bother to protest, the things they have access to every day just what you and I have come to know and use for our personal convenience. The world they are looking forward to is a world that I hope I don’t have to live in because I don’t think they understand the ramifications of the choices they want the government and big business to make for them. they are perfectly happy to have the mining done in countries where children die in the mines from collapses, trying to eek out a living on pennies a day while they mine for cobalt and other rare earth minerals. But don’t disturb our pristine landscapes here in this country using modern mining techniques.
For the same reason why they don’t care how many whales offshore wind farms kill, or how many protected raptors on-shore wind farms kill.
Forget EVs the end is nigh…
In 27 years’ time, society as we know it will have collapsed. Food will be extremely limited. Lawlessness will have taken over the land. Gangs will roam the countryside scavenging for resources like food, water and fuel. This breakdown won’t be sudden. It will happen over a period of months. It might even have already begun.
This may sound like a cliché dystopian fantasy, but Bill McGuire, a professor of Geophysical and Climate Hazards at University College London (UCL) and author of Hothouse Earth: An Inhabitant’s Guide, doesn’t think so. He is expecting, and preparing, for widespread riots by 2050. The riots will begin, he says, as they have throughout history, when we run out of food.
https://apple.news/A-0-R4IkbS22YxcZEOXMaww
The term “nutty Professor” didn’t happen by chance. Shirly everybody will have boiled to death by 2050.
It’s prerequisite for the job….
Who is this Shirly Everybody?
From the classic 1970s comedy movie “Airplane!” (or “Flying High” in some countries).
Probably can’t get it on streaming services now. 🙁
Political incorrectness doesn’t provide a safe space for snowflakes.
I believe Shirley Everybody lives down the street from Shirley Nobody.
That is indeed one possible scenario, and one towards which the current global elite is heading, although they are too stupid to realise it.
I take heart from the number of Loindon ULEZ cameras that have been vandalised in London. The people know more than the politicians, these days.
We face the same problem as Russia. How to get rid of a ruling elite who are running our countries into the ground for their own benefit, and maintain power through legislation, propaganda and faux crises they themselves generate to justify their existence to solve them.
I fear it may take the collapse of Western society to get rid of them. And their fawning acolytes, the green vegan reneable millennials.
Putin has an independently assessed approval rating of 80+%.
It would be nice if western politicians could get 50% approval ratings.
“independently assessed” – by whom? 🙂
Independent assessors, perchance?
I’ll get me coat.
I’ll get it for you 🙂
It must be nice to have the power to have killed, any reporter who reports something you don’t like.
Just like Biden got 81 million votes.
And mankind is not smart enough to figure out a solution to this scenario before disaster strikes???
Oh ye of little faith.
He should have stuck to volcanology.
If we run out of food, it will be because the environmental nutters have outlawed it’s production.
In the real world, production is going up.
PCP = Personal contract purchase
Which I believe is the same as a ‘Lease‘ in America? We see that term used all the time on the TV.
Nope, different legal entities in the UK. Although to all intents and purposes they are the same to the user other than the actual cost.
I’m about to lease a £40,000 car, I compared it to PCP.
PCP deposit is around £7,000; Lease deposit around £2,500.
PCP monthly payments around £550; Lease payments around £450.
PCP end of term option to purchase vehicle following expected 4 year market depreciation, contracted around £20,000
Lease end of term option to purchase vehicle following expected 4 year market depreciation, around £20,000, but if the market dictates lower, or higher, final purchase reflects the true market value.
I can’t speak for other countries, but in Australia, second hand electric cars were more expensive than new ones, owing to shortage of supply, pandemic problems etc. Clearly, when supply caught up with demand, more reasonable prices for second hand EVs prevailed.
Year on year demand for electric vehicles has increased approx 70% in the US and 100% + in the EU, so it might just be a tiny bit premature to announce the demise of the electric car.
70% of zero is zero.
A total of 126,294 plug-in vehicles (99,089 BEVs and 27,205 PHEVs) were sold during August 2023 in the United States, up 71.5% from the sales in August 2022.
A small but rapidly growing portion of the car market. As the sticker price of EVs should be about equal to an ICE car in 2025, range about 500 miles,and maintenence and fuel costs much lower, I wonder who will be buying ICE cars then? Presumably WUWT readers whose loyalty to fossil fuels is iron clad. But others?
As the sticker price of EVs should be about equal to an ICE car in 2025, range about 500 miles,and maintenence and fuel costs much lower…
There’s only two more years to go, and right now, as the header article says, used average EV price in the UK is 40K. There is no way sticker prices are going to be the same. And there is no way range is going to be 500 miles at comparable sticker prices.
It is not going to happen. And even if it did, two years from now in the UK you would not be able to find charging points. And if you did, they would cost more than gasoline. And take a half hour instead of 5 minutes. And then degrade the battery due to rapid charging.
The consequence of mandating EV purchases new will be that people will stop buying. Because they can’t afford the price, and there is no fit to their use case, so they will keep their existing IVE. Alternatively, you can not mandate purchases new, and then they still won’t buy them, but will buy ICE instead, and the bottom falls out of the EV market.
Either way, people are not going to buy the things at the prices they currently and for the next few years sell for.
I would cheerfully buy an EV that delivered 500 miles, comparably priced, comparable refuel times. But the problem that is causing all these policy contortions is that it doesn’t exist and will not for at least five years, and probably not in 10 years.
This is what you get when you have transport and energy policy being decided by a bunch of liberal arts graduates who have been educated to think their casual fantasies are all you need for planning the country’s energy and transport policy and never worked in business in their lives.
How many of those are sold without government incentive/subsidy?
Around Zero I guess. 70% of Zero is still Zero.
Why is everything always should, might, maybe from you people? Everything’s always jam some time in the future. Like renewable electricity was supposed to be cheap, but it isn’t.
Seriously, what planet are you living on? My Mercedes E Class diesel estate car will do 450 miles on a single tank, in winter, fully loaded with four occupants, two dogs and a roof box, travelling at 90mph on the motorway where practical. Under those conditions even the best EV today would probably manage around 100 miles before needing a recharge.
Around 45% of UK households have no off street parking so no access to home charging. It’s now become abundantly clear that using public charging facilities yields many fewer miles per GBP (Great British Pound) thanks to the horrendous cost of electricity, thanks to ‘cheap’ renewables.
What maintenance costs? The only difference in maintenance between an ICE and an EV is an engine oil change every 10,000 miles, perhaps £50 including labour. I can live with that.
Me. I would be happy to buy one, assuming they can compete on purchase cost with an equivalent ICE vehicle, they can perform as well as an equivalent ICE vehicle, the cost of running is equivalent to ICE vehicles, the problem of charging is overcome, their deteriorating range at speed is overcome, and their plummeting resale values recover to ICE equivalent levels.
We are living with this in the UK right now mate, and it’s coming to you very soon.
As for ‘clean’, Volvo did a back to back, cradle to grave study on two identical vehicles rolling off their production lines. One ICE the other EV. They found that it took driving both 90,000 miles before the EV’s CO2 emission cost’s were finally mitigated. In the UK that’s around 9 years of ownership, about which time the battery would need to be replaced on the EV, by that time worth substantially more than the vehicle itself. Most ICE cars in the UK have another 150,000 in them before an engine replacement might be required.
Why do you think the range will go up so much and the price will come down so much in two short years? If you actually read factual sources instead of BS activist sources you would know that EVs are actually more expensive to maintain and if you don’t charge at home it costs more for energy for EVs.
I love how the EV aficionados are absolutely convinced that all they need for cheap long range electric cars to exist, is to wish for it hard enough.
…clap hard so tinkerbell doesn’t die.
Maintenance is not lower when you factor in the cost of having to replace the battery in a couple of years.
The only reason why fuel costs appear to be lower, is that you aren’t paying road use taxes on electricity. Governments are already working on ways to fix that loophole.
Mr. x: 1 sticker price equal in 1.5 years; 2 500 mile range; 3 maintenance and fuel costs much lower. Congratulations, 3 lies in one partial sentence. Mr. rovingbroker is envious.
That is right. demand for electric cars increased from 100 to nearly 200 in 2023.
I’m sure you will be queuing for one them… Right ??
Obviously there are still lots of brainless virtue-seeking WAN****S in Australia.
Absolutely delightful fact filled reply. As many say, come to WUWT for the right wing talking points, stay for the abuse and conspiracy theories.
See my fact filled reply above.
Irony alert.
I hear that. Sorry.
Don’t be. The abuse is generally limited but richly deserved and the conspiracy theories are from the ones on the receiving end of the abuse – as I said, richly deserved!
Mr. Rotter: I hope you are not apologizing to this troll.
I know 3 people who own Teslas.
In each case the description above couldn’t be more accurate.
Amazing how many once conspiracy theories are now proven fact, Hey !
And the time delay has shortened remarkably.
I should also add, that each of them has big boats and caravans etc, which they tow with big diesel utes or SUVs.
The EV is just a TOY for them to show their “social worth”, and what better EV to do that with, than a Tesla.
He had as many facts as the post he replied to. At least he didn’t have to resort to lies.
As to your whines about right wingers, you haven’t been around here long. We have the full political spectrum represented here.
If the best you can do is scream that only right wingers disagree with you, then you have proven that you aren’t mentally old enough to play with the big boys.
Mr. x: I’m sure you are delighted to ignore the factual, detailed replies above, and cherry-pick out the one you want to attack, then attack the site. As many say, today’s “right wing conspiracy” is tomorrow’s breaking news.
Yeah, this site clouds the issue with facts…
What will be the demand for EVs without massive subsidies and tax breaks?
I’m not sure but it is big and round hollow in the middle and starts with a Z 😂
According to the IEA
Don’t know what happened there.
According to the IEA EV sales in 2022 were a little over 10m. China accounted for 60% of sales, Europe 15%, US 8%, ROW 17%.
Total sales of all EVs were still under 20m. This compares to the 1.4 Billion ICEVs in the world.
Long way to go before EVs rival ICEVs
IEA ‘Global EV Outlook 2023 ,Catching up with climate ambitions’ April 2023
And this “increase” couldn’t possibly have anything to do with massive subsidies and threats to outlaw all competitors?
The data, reported by The Times, showed that prices of second-hand premium sector EVs peaked at £51,704 last August and have since plummeted by more than £10,000 to £39,268.
This tells you what the problem is. In the UK for 15K you can get an exellent, fairly recent, low mileage ICE car from a dealer. You can get older and higher mileage very serviceable ones for under 10K. And modern cars will last 15+ years if looked after.
At 40K an EV is not competitive, even if they were comparable in features, which they are not. They are going to have to come down more, a lot more, like to at or below ICE prices both for new and used. If people don’t have the money they won’t buy.
Its not clear what will happen, but the thing that cannot happen is for the UK car market to continue as now, and UK car use to continue as now, just with EVs instead of ICE. Its extraordinary that there seems to have been no serious published analysis of what this will mean, socially and economically.
I cannot see any way this avoids a collapse in both the used and new car markets, as people hold on to their ICE cars for years longer. And huge losses for the fleet leasing companies as used prices tank. And huge losses for the manufacturers as volume falls and prices have to fall to move the EVs at all. And, for those who do actually move to EVs, much less driving, and more of it confined to local. And a lot more people deciding that if it has to be electric, and at these prices, they can get by without a car after all.
Tell me why I am wrong. I can’t see a real U-turn on the 80% EV by 2030 rule, it will produce a political uproar and drive the manufacturers mad. Some of the public may like it, but no current politician has the courage to do it. So I think the result must be lower car ownership and a lot less driving, and lots of businesses going broke as a result.
And no-one in the mainstream media daring to do any analysis of it all.
Most people have no idea about the so called “mandates” yet, they simply are not paying attention. They will when no cheap way to get to work is available and then the pitchforks and ultimately the guillotines will come out.
I bought my 80,000 mile 11 year old Jaguar for under £6000. 4 years later I’ve spent a fair bit tarting the old girl up, and she runs like a dream. Ok fuel consumption is high at 35mpg (UK gallon) but given the miles I do the saving in capital cost massively outweighs the higher fuel and maintenance. On paper the car is worthless. On my drive it’s a spectularly fast well handling luxury car.
Hello fellow traveler. I have a 5 liter gas 2011 jaguar bought in 2013. Been running great for 10 years, and a joy to drive. Faster than the law allows, but I stretch that a bit😆
And if you live in an apartment building, you have no where to plug them in.
Story tip
From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66889029
”The main problem lies in so-called “rules of origin” which come into force in January. They apply to shipments of cars across the Channel under the terms of the Brexit deal, the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement.
They will effectively ensure that electric vehicles will need to have batteries produced in either the UK or the EU.
Cars that do not meet the criteria will face 10% tariffs – or taxes – when transported across the Channel, in either direction.”
I’m not aware of any new cobalt, lithium or copper mines being opened in the U.K. or the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66880697 pollution from metal mining.
Cornish Lithium, a company, is quoted – by the BBC [yeah!] – as seeking to extract lithium dissolved in water used for geothermal heat/power.
Whilst this may work, I guess there will not be enough lithium produced – even in, say, ten years’ time – to meet more than a modest fraction of the UK car market requirement.
Unless the UK car market is, in 2033, very much smaller than it is today [IIRC ~1.6 million sales of brand new cars each year].
Auto
To be fair, the UK market is somewhat different to the US market with mileages being far lower and a far higher percentage of land is densely populated.
Personally in an ideal world I could use a BEV for most of my needs which involves journeys of less that 30 miles most of the time and plenty of drive, to park and charge a car in.
BUT some of my drives are well over 200 miles.
Electricity is now far more expensive than even punitively taxed road diesel.
I would still need to tax, insure and maintain a second car.
The capital to acquire one is massive. My current car cost me about $7500 and I’ve spent about another $2500 on it in 4 years to rectify all the things previous owners didn’t fix.
I can’t buy an electric car with 100k left in its battery for anything like that.
As with a heat pump, the total cost of ownership is simply too great to contemplate. I would be dead before it all paid back.
However if nuclear electricity at about one tenth the current price were available, and suitable incentives made owning a second car relatively cheap – insurance alone is staggering. Why having a second car but doing no more mileage would increase your chances of a claim is beyond me – I would happily own one as a cheap ‘shopping trolley’.
Like most green tech it’s being pushed on us because, ex of taxation, and subsidy there is simply no traction in terms of overall cost of ownership, for all the usual reasons, people already have cars and the car industry needs to sell more. However all that has in fact happened is that people like me have bought old but very serviceable low mileage cars and spent the money on making them like new again, rather than buy a new car on finance.
People forget that in the 1960s car ownership surged because cars became affordable, and even with the dreadful roads of the time, journey times on anything but direct commuter routes halved, even assuming a public transport service was available at all.
I was astounded to find in my teens that I could cycle into the local town faster than the bus could drive it, by dint of not having to deviate to pick up passengers.
People are more than ever constrained by relative poverty. Car ownership is even in the most non mathematically brained people is limited by total cost of ownership and utility.
To put it bluntly, overall electric cars do not represent value for money and customers for them are staying away in droves, despite the fact that Britain is probably the most ideal country in terms of driving habits, to adopt them.
What would make all the difference would be cheap nuclear power, but that would essentially smash the profits of the renewables industry and shut it down, and severely dent those of the oil and gas giants. Who are spending small fortunes on anti-nuclear and renewable propaganda to preserve and increase the even larger fortunes they stand to make.
EVs and heat-pumps are all decent enough niche market products, but their mainstream adoption cannot come about with renewable energy and fossil fuel standing in the way of widespread adoption of nuclear power. And even then the question marks surrounding availability and environmental impact of lithium and energy density of lithium batteries will still remain as will complete lack of any serious plan to upgrade the electricity infrastructure by probably three times, to cope with the increased demand of everybody ‘going electric’ wherever possible…
Currently Net Zero and ‘going green’ is increasingly seen for what it is – political virtue signalling and marketing propaganda that is becoming about as appealing as a cup of cold sick with the electorate.
Eventually all this mix of Leftist and Marxist moralising crap and woke nonsense and Green is the colour of money, and bollocks to the planet, will be seen for what it is, but sadly it will take time to filter through to the consciousness of everyday people.
What is getting there though, is how easy it is to take a battery powered reciprocating saw to a low emissions number plate recognising camera in a street near you. Much cheaper than buying a ULEZ compliant electric car or van. I believe up to 30% of our Muslim Mayor’s tax gougers have been rendered unfit for service so far…
In short people are becomeing very tired of political virtue signalling that costs them their livelihoods. Poist WWII in Britain the old class of genteel toffs who wer ‘born to run the country’ were displaced by a new class of left wing middle class elites, who have by and large run it ever since. But they have in the end failed to deliver, and Europe as a whole is looking for something a bit more common sense and traditional to replace them with. So far they havent found anyone much, but…watch this space.
My point is to put electric cars in a wider political and economic context. Some of what is being done is at some level useful. But the overall incompetence of central government in doing anything beyond winning an election and clinging onto power is hampering the development of an actual viable ‘sustainable’ future.
That would be nearly 100% in the London borough of Bromley thanks to the ever vigilant Blade Runners.
🙂
You can’t buy an electric with 100K in the battery, even when you buy them brand new.
….and even if taxpayers slushfund the filling stations with middle class welfare ($671,795 average per station) they can’t be a free for all with queuing-
NRMA to charge EV motorists to power up (msn.com)
“A faster and fairer mass transition [to zero-emission vehicles] is threatened by the absence of support for private buyers, many of whom plan to go electric but are delaying due to concerns over affordability and uncertainty regarding the availability of a charging network.”
Nothing that another trillion of printed dollars managed by the smart people can’t fix, right?
The biggest expense of owning an automobile is not fuel, but depreciation. Well maintained conventional ICE vehicles today can be expected to last 200,000 miles without requiring uneconomic repairs. The jury is still out on the value of used EVs because of this concern. Combined with the problem of the lack of off-street parking (charging) for the lesser-affluent means that EV ownership will not be viable for most people.
Which may be part of the point. Back onto the bus for you folks.
The biggest expense of owning an automobile is not fuel, but depreciation.
Same in Oz and here’s a 2019 Tesla Model3 Standard Range Plus with 65542kms asking $39k that would have cost $66k + ORC originally-
2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus Auto (carsales.com.au)
Yes that’s 41% depreciation if he actually gets that. OTOH if the owner had bought a GXL Toyota RAV4 hybrid then for $38490 + ORC they’d be looking to get $40k for it privately now with that mileage. The only queuing you do with that is with the Toyota factory waiting for an update while our new car showrooms have plenty of EVs clocking up floor plan interest for dealers.
Which may be part of the point. Back onto the bus for you folks.
Exactly. The short-term plan might be to stop people using ICE cars but the long-term plan is to cut car usage altogether. Your options will be walking, cycling or using public transport. For example, the Scottish Government aims to reduce the number of kilometers (yes, kilometers) driven by cars by 20% by 2030. They are actively considering road-pricing.
Bit of a bummer on the Crow Road……..
That’s the agenda. Unfortunately, the same Progressives have been working diligently to make our cities dangerously unlivable to the point where people will refuse to walk, cycle or use public transport for fear of their very lives.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12511809/washington-dc-crime-surge-murders.html
Washington DC is now so crime-ravaged locals are driving tiny distances instead of walking and are too scared to go out during the day
Turns out, if it ain’t a Tesla it’s dead meat.
Tesla are the market leader but even their depreciation is ugly once FOMO goes-
2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus Auto (redbook.com.au)
The Model3 only hit our shores in 2019 and plenty trying to minimise the ugly depreciation hit privately now as many come off lease. The EV bubble has burst big time.
There is no depreciation hit for someone who leases a car — it is part of the lease payments that are set when the car is leased. Perhaps you mean that lots of Teslas are coming off lease (from Tesla) and are depressing the market for used Teslas.
It is true that a cautious buyer would include any reduction in range and replacement battery cost when deciding to buy the car.
If you have any data for average sale price for Tesla cars that have come off lease, please share.
There is no such thing as a perfect deal, of course, and there are potential pitfalls to keep in mind with a novated lease. If you lose your job, for example, you might have to get your new employer to take over the novated lease, or you might have to terminate the lease and pay out what’s owing, and you might be stuck with additional charges.
Novated leases will also often come with administration fees, and you’re likely to be paying a higher interest rate on a novated lease vs car loan.
Novated Leasing: Everything you need to know – Car Advice | CarsGuide
What Happens Once the Lease Ends?Is a Novated Lease Worth It: A Detailed Guide (takeatumble.com.au)
Take your pick and not a lot of dealers stuck with them-
Tesla Model 3 cars for sale in Australia – carsales.com.au
As an old used horse trader advised me early on once- You can sell anything if the price is right even if you have to pay someone to take it away and that’s called rubbish son.
You just won the internet for the dumbest comment on it today.
I’ve heard people say that before. They have no clue how leases work.
Those lease payments are priced assuming a certain resale value of the car at the end of the lease.
Actual world data shows that the resale assumptions were wildly optimistic.
Which is a problem for the lessor (who owns the car, wrote the lease and receives the car back at the end of the lease) who at the end of the lease owns a car worth less than expected when the lease was initiated. This has no effect on the lessee who simply returns the car to the lessor at the end of the lease.
Which shows that the lessor made some bad assumptions when pricing the lease. Apparently, he was not one of those “who knew” that the EVs would depreciate faster than IC automobiles. Lucky for the lessee.
Which leaves lessees without a car and facing much wiser and unaffordable lessors. No doubt why lessees often took on the residual car in large numbers and why we see of the 541 Tesla M3s for sale on Oz Carsales now 95 are for sale from dealers and 446 privately.
So it’s all good, so long as someone else is taking the loss.
https://youtu.be/DG9Izqp6WWU
Tesla dead meat.. 🙂
Thanks Janice on NotaLot 🙂
This almost two year old video has had over two million views and the channel owner drives a Tesla model S. Perhaps they have sold enough thirty-dollar t-shirts to make a profit on the deal. A thousand t-shirts a year over two years would gross $60,000.
And …
Always read the fine print.
1. You misleadingly (I will assume unintentionally — you may not realize that the person who posts a given video is not always that video’s creator) quote the poster of that video as if he or she is the PRODUCER of the video or, worse, as if it were the OWNER of the car.
2. That a piece-of-junk EV has some salvageable parts is IRRELEVANT.
Roving Broker: I am going to assume you are heavily invested in the success of EV’s and your emotions caused you to, in haste, unintentionally post very misleading words. It will take watching your comments over time to see from your future comments whether your deception was more than likely intentional. I hope not. 🙂
Transcript of key part of video (Note: I corrected the English subtitle for clarity in places.)
1:52 Video producer: But, first we have to hear the story of the car from the owner.
2:25 [Tesla refused to replace the battery after the second battery failed.]
2:29 Tesla Owner: I thought it better to just explode the car. At least we get a nice ending for the problems.
2:39 VP: How much would it cost to replace the battery?
2:40 Owner: At least 20,000 euros and it was uncertain whether a new battery could even be installed.
2:48 VP: How old is the car?
2:51 Owner: 5 years old.
(after scanning this thread for other Roving Broker comments):
Oh, BROTHER! What a half-truth-telling, self-interested, snake you are, RB. I am now convinced: you INTENTIONALLY tried to deceive the readers of WUWT.
I am still smiling, nevertheless. 🙂
EV’s are history. YOUR INVESTMENT IN THEM IS WORTHLESS (unless, of course, you can continue to get your elected representatives to confiscate taxpayer’s money to cover your costs of production/utter inability to charge a market price that will allow you to break-even).
Edit: taxpayers’ 🙄
My pleasure, bnice. 🙂 The reason it didn’t create a window above is because there was text entered after the link.
“if it ain’t Tesla, it’s dead meat.” If only. At least they would feed buzzards. Do you see any buzzards circling over all those dead meat EVs in the fields of China? No, nor the non-existent battery recyclers.
So like most “successful” government programs, they only work when the people are forced into them.
According to those on the left, people are not smart enough to know what is in their best interests. That’s why the leftists who run the government need to make all the important decisions for the rest of us.
These folks aren’t skeptical. Let’s say perceptive. They see their future and it does not include EV’s.
This is true, but mostly because Tesla has been cutting the prices of new EVs.
When new EV prices are lowered, used EV prices also have to fall.
Tesla is about 70% of the US EV market share, so their decisions impact other EVs.
Now the question is, if EVs are such a good deal, why are the prices of new cars falling?
I would say that owning an EV is owning a liability, not an asset. As more people wake up to their real limitations, and those virtue signalers realize that they can’t sell their EV outright and the trade-in value drops dramatically, only the die-hard advocates will continue to own them – and that number will likely decrease over time as well. I wonder how long it will take for EV trade-in “value” to go negative.
Once the recycling fees start kicking in, the price could go negative a lot sooner than most of the advocates think.
Elon Musk brags that his truck that pulls a trailer will go a million miles guaranteed….says the brakes will last a very long time due regenerative braking…says it uses 4 motors and will continue to move on only 2….doesn’t mention batteries….which I think weigh 8 tons.
I believe the odds of making the Tesla Semi truly functional will be to place additional battery packs under the trailers that plug into the back of the Semi. Of course this would sacrifice tare weight capacity but increase travel distance. Until, of course, the batteries decided to self combust
Don’t read the fine print…
I can’t find the fine print at Tesla’s site or much useful information at all really. Buyers don’t even know what battery is being used in their purchase so they may be getting the last of the discontinued ones or early adopter versions of the new ones.
That would make 16,000 lbs less carrying capacity as there are limits to how much weight is allowed on the roads. Transports are limited to 80,000 lbs and every pound of battery weight is one less pound of goods it can transport. Question; How big a battery charger would you need to charge an 8 ton battery in an hour? If it is even possible.
TANSTAAFL
The federal law was amended to allow an extra 2000 pounds for EVs, bringing it to 82,000 pounds.
Oh well that changes everything………NOT
It is however, yet another example of how safety laws are being tossed out the window in a desperate attempt to make electric vehicles relevant.
Oh . . . are you talking about that “new” Tesla Cybertruck that no one has yet seen on any road in the entire world. You mean that one? 😉
Yes and we will never see it as it is a stupid idea.
I’m sure we will see it someday, as well as a host of laws that will be needed to make them competitive.
The coming bans one ICE vehicles is going to include big trucks.
He can say anything he wants but the last time I looked he’s only delivered 32 vehicles and they are all subsidized.
The last time I read up on this scheme, the batteries were in the trailer, so declaring that the truck (cab) will go a million miles is not that big a deal.
BTW, if my memory is correct, current big rigs routinely go a million miles and more.
The tractor must have some batteries or they would need a tender to push it around the terminal.
They might have a small battery built into the cab. Or they might have a portable battery that they attach to the cab to allow it to get around the yard.
In other words, despite Creepy Joe Bribeme’s massive subsidies, the battery car market has saturated.
Joe has publicly stated that “climate change” is a current existential threat to mankind.
Despite that, he still is driven around by the Secret Service using Government-owned ICE vehicles (this excludes vehicles the SS may temporarily rent for use by the President).
IOW, “do as I say, not as I do”.
And goes on weekly “vacations” in his personal U.S. Government’s 747 jet aircraft.
The issue isn’t being analyzed from the correct perspective. EV proponents aren’t looking at this as a competitive free market between ICE and EV. They intend to mandate EV use and in addition eliminate private ownership of automobiles. They envision cars as a subscription service, like cable TV. A driver will need a contract, as he does with his mobile phone and further charges for the use of an EV, including charging. This was the paradigm for self-driving EVs, whose impractical nature no longer makes them a daily topic of conversation. If their plans are realized ICE vehicles will simply be made illegal. Ask Klaus Schwab.
Won’t work for me I don’t and never want a cell phone. I will never buy an EV. I don’t even call people who own a cell phone as I don’t want them talking on it while they drive and I don’t want the quilt if they get in an accident. I have been almost killed many many times by idiots talking or texting while they drive and I’m getting very tired or having to honk at them at stop lights to get them to go as well.Put your F-ing cell phone away when you drive A holes.😠
If you end up next to them, sit up higher and lean out your window a little (like you are trying to see what’s on their phone). A surprising percentage will instinctively try to hide the screen from you (the others just think you are a weirdo).
“Forced to switch” is the operative government policy. Between mandatory percentages of EV sales by manufactures (large penalties for excess ICEs going to subsidize EV manufacturers) and impossible-to-meet mileage and emissions standards, supposedly free people will be forced into the Leftist one-size-fits-all government mold.
Come to think of it, it may be harder to hide problems with used EVs in selling to the next sucker. That’s in addition to the regular data fraud helped along by EPA in overstating the range of the new ones.
who will refuse to make the switch until forced to.
One would hope that in this ‘democracy’ the voters would have had a chance to ratify the decision of our ‘leaders’ to abolish fossil fuels first, and then try to set up an environmentally holy system of wind-and-solar power generation (and massive grid revisions to match) when and if they ever got around to it.
One can also hope that said ‘leaders’ will now voluntarily walk the plank to atone for their ill-considered decisions previous.
I hate to say it but I hope everyone involved in the EV hoax loses big time. That goes for car owner as well as car manufacturer. They bought into the hype and now they need to pay the piper. The whole spectrum of the EV push is the biggest financial fraud ever conceived. Anyone with any intelligence could see all the flaws in this thing being viable.
Will batteries be readily available for 10 year old EV’s?
They aren’t available for five year old ones.
This is called an economic understatement. 🙂
I am rich (I have all the money I need) because I do not make stupid choices buying cars. My current ride ’95 Honda Del Sol that I got for $1500 six years ago.
The last new car I bought was a 2007 Corolla for my wife. I bought used because a used Corolla was not that much less than new at the time. The popularity of a Corolla is based on it being good transportation as verified by Consumer Reports and the $200 and $300 ones I had used. .My son is still driving the car.
Some people buy cars so they can let people know how rich and stupid they are. The degree of stupidity can be measured by the loss of value.
For the record, I have never blown and engine or transmission. I base changing oil and transmission fluid on testing. My ’98 Cummins ISB 5.9l diesel and Allison transmission have 200k miles.
Tesla is talking about a semi. Diesels are expensive to maintain but until Tesla has lots of history the ICE is here to stay.
The manufacturers were largely responsible here by overpricing the vehicles from the outset while depending on government subsidies to entice buyers. They failed to factor in the shortage of public charging stations, the lack of willingness for consumers to install expensive home chargers, the limited cruising range of EVs, their inconsistent extreme weather reliability, and the cost of battery replacement. All of these made consumers increasingly wary of finding themselves saddled with white elephants. In addition, threats by governments to ban the sale of gas/diesel types after certain dates have caused a further backlash as people see such moves as removing freedom of choice while forcing ever-higher prices on them in a time of inflation.
The only thing that surprises me is that there is ANY secondhand market for used rechargeable batteries, at all. The car may look very nice, but the condition of the battery is crucial.
At >30K S/H, anyone who can afford this, will buy proper cars brand new, instead.
The only reason we are in this mess is because we were foolish enough to listen to experts and professionals. There is likely a place for experts and professionals but not in positions of power.
For all those concerned about the dearth of EV battery recyclers I’ve located this … Top 10 Electric Vehicle Battery Recycling Companies in the World
Enjoy.
Great. Now tell us how many of those companies are recycling the lithium. Tesla says they recycle 100% of their batteries. A little digging shows they don’t recycle 100% of any single battery. Semantics. The devil is in the details.
I love it when someone writes, “a little digging shows” and then doesn’t supply links to show where the digging took place. You may have noticed that my coments all (or almost all) include links.
It really is sad how hard some people work to change the subject when they find themselves losing on the facts.
The companies in your list are recycling lead acid batteries, not LI-ion batteries.
“The average cost of second hand electric cars is plummeting by a “phenomenal amount” as they sit for “months on end” without any buyers.”
Ok, let’s consider that. Teslas can sit 60 to 70 days without a charge if the settings are limited to allow it to sleep. If used EVs are sitting for months on end then the dealer must have an employee moving a portable generator around (or rotating the EVs to charging stations) at least every other month for each car, and far more frequently if you want to maintain the batteries well. Have anywhere close to 60 EVs on the lot and you’ll be charging an EV every day. And it is all a pure expense: the time of the employee, cost of the generator or charging system, the fuel or electricity used. At least with an ICE you don’t have to keep refueling it. And you really need to keep records on each car.
A large dealer may be able to efficiently do all that, but all the little independent used car lots? No. I can see used EVs being discounted drastically just to be rid of the nuisance of maintaining them. And I can see a lot of used car lots rejecting them outright. And even a big dealer will dread a large fleet of EVs coming off lease at the same time.
The word is getting out that the batteries deteriorate with use, so a second hand BEV will have shorter range, plus depending on age may require expensive replacement batteries. This affects the ‘third hand’ market. It is unlikely someone with a second hand BEV will find a buyer or get much of a price, and this certainly will influence the decision to buy second hand and get a car that nobody will want in a few years time.
Batteries will also deteriorate when just sitting, not being used.
The hotter it is, and the more full the battery is, the faster it will deteriorate.
Other than doing the shopping in a show-off car, EVs – like most of the new theological sacraments don’t even begin to make any sense. I have a 15 year old 2.4L Camry that regularly does 1,400 km in 14 hours between Johannesburg and Cape Town fully loaded and towing a trailer with one stop for petrol – which takes less than 5 minutes. Along the way I pass a huge number of dozens of heavy duty long haul trucks – all running on diesel. Electric vehicles may be an expensive virtue signalling toy for the elites but they are in reality nothing more than a ridiculous joke.
Apologies – didn’t edit to well.