Could Natural Hydrogen Kill Green Hydrogen?

Essay by Eric Worrall

h/t David S. – If you have never heard of natural hydrogen deposits before, you’re not alone. But discoveries of substantial underground gas fields which mostly contain almost pure hydrogen have the potential to completely upend efforts to develop a “green hydrogen” economy.

Natural hydrogen exploration ‘boom’ snaps up one third of South Australia

South Australia has found itself at the heart of a 21st-century gold rush, though this time for naturally occurring hydrogen. Since February 2021, 18 exploration licenses have been granted or applied for in the state by six different companies searching for natural hydrogen.

FEBRUARY 2, 2022 BELLA PEACOCK

From pv magazine Australia

In a rapid escalation from zero activity in February last year, exploration companies are now scrambling to look for what they believe could be the cheapest, easiest way to get their hands on the much hyped “future fuel”: hydrogen.

In the last 12 months, six different companies have either been granted or applied for 18 Petroleum Exploration Licences across the state of South Australia, according to Australian energy consultancy EnergyQuest. Combined, the area under permit equates to around 570,000 square kilometres (km2) or 32% of the entire state, the consultancy has found, referring to the sudden influx as a “boom”.

Natural hydrogen

Until now, natural or native hydrogen has been largely overlooked – despite it being described as “widespread in nature” by natural hydrogen researcher Viacheslav Zgonnik in a 2020 paper. Natural hydrogen deposits form through chemical reactions underground, with Zgonnik saying the molecule has been detected at high concentrations, often as the major gas, in all types of geologic environments.

Read more: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/02/02/natural-hydrogen-exploration-boom-snaps-up-one-third-of-south-australia/

The abstract of the 2020 paper;

The occurrence and geoscience of natural hydrogen: A comprehensive review

Viacheslav Zgonnik

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.earscirev.2020.103140

Abstract

Using an interdisciplinary approach, this paper reviews current knowledge in the field of natural hydrogen. For the first time, it combines perspectives on hydrogen from the literature of the former Eastern bloc with that of the West, including rare hardcopies and recent studies. Data are summarized and classified in three main sections: hydrogen as a free gas in different environments, as inclusions in various rock types, and as dissolved gas in ground water. This review conclusively demonstrates that molecular hydrogen is much more widespread in nature than was previously thought. Hydrogen has been detected at high concentrations, often as the major gas, in all types of geologic environment. A critical evaluation of all the proposed mechanisms regarding the origin of natural hydrogen shows that a deep-seated origin is potentially the most likely explanation for its abundance in nature. By combining available data, an estimate of 23 Tg/year for the total annual flow of hydrogen from geologic sources is proposed. This value is an order of magnitude greater than previous estimate but most likely still not large enough to account for recently discovered worldwide diffusive seepages. Hydrogen could play a critical role in mechanisms taking place in both the shallow and deep geospheres and it can influence a very wide range of natural phenomena. Hydrogen is an essential energy source for many microorganisms. Sampling for hydrogen can be a useful tool in studying natural environments, geologic mapping, monitoring of earthquakes, plotting fault traces and resource exploration. Hydrogen of geologic origin has the potential to become the renewable energy source of the future, with exploratory projects ongoing at the present time. The topic of natural hydrogen is therefore relevant from many different perspectives.

Read more: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0012825219304787#preview-section-abstract

Another paper which discusses natural hydrogen;

Natural hydrogen the fuel of the 21st century

Laurent Truche1* and Elena F. Bazarkina2,3

1 Université Grenoble Alpes, CNRS, ISTerre, F-38000 Grenoble, France 
2 Institut Néel, UPR 2940 CNRS – Université Grenoble Alpes, F-38000 Grenoble, France 
3 IGEM RAS, 119017 Moscow, Russia 

Corresponding author: laurent.truche@univ-grenoble-alpes.fr

Abstract

Much has been learned about natural hydrogen (H2) seepages and accumulation, but present knowledge of hydrogen behavior in the crust is so limited that it is not yet possible to consider exploitation of this resources. Hydrogen targeting requires a shift in the long-standing paradigms that drive oil and gas exploration. This paper describes the foundation of an integrated source-to-sink view of the hydrogen cycle, and propose preliminary practical guidelines for hydrogen exploration.

Read more: https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/abs/2019/24/e3sconf_wri-162018_03006/e3sconf_wri-162018_03006.html

This story is from February, but until David pointed it out, I had never heard of natural hydrogen, other than as an impurity in natural gas.

A word of caution, information about natural hydrogen is pretty sparse, so I have no validation of the claim natural hydrogen occurs in sufficient quantity in exploitable deposits, other than a handful of papers. It may prove to be the cold fusion of the zero carbon industry. But serious people seem to be taking it seriously.

Even the possibility of significant exploitable natural deposits of hydrogen poses a threat to attempts to build a renewable powered green hydrogen economy.

How will anyone obtain financing for spending billions installing solar panels and wind turbines, developing green water hydrolysis technology, if someone can potentially just poke a hole in the ground and obliterate their profit margin?

I still think hydrogen is way too dangerous to be used in consumer items like hydrogen powered automobiles.

But a zero carbon dispatchable hydrogen powered electricity turbine sitting on top of a large natural hydrogen deposit could pretty much wipe out the profitability of any wind or solar installation or battery backup facility, no matter how many subsidies the government hands out.

Even if the natural hydrogen deposits only last a decade or two, or are never developed into a commercial resource, the threat of businesses developing dispatchable natural hydrogen resources will undermine the business case of pretty much every other form of green energy, except hydroelectricity.

Update: h/t Nick Stokes – a CSIRO paper Hydrogen in Australian natural gas: occurrences, sources and resources suggests “The prediction and subsequent identification of subsurface H2 that can be exploited remains enigmatic and awaits robust exploration guidelines and targeted drilling for proof of concept.”

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July 24, 2022 10:26 pm

“But discoveries of substantial underground gas fields which mostly contain almost pure hydrogen”

Where? All I read here is people applying for permits. No-one seems to have done anything.

Your second source is not so encouraging:
” present knowledge of hydrogen behavior in the crust is so limited that it is not yet possible to consider exploitation of this resources”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 24, 2022 10:42 pm

I notice that Viacheslav Zgonnik seems to have no academic status. Despite declaring no competing interests, the only affiliation claimed is Natural Hydrogen Energy LLC

Graemethecat
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 24, 2022 10:49 pm

Neither did Thomas Edison.

Why are you so obsessed with academic status?

Reply to  Graemethecat
July 24, 2022 10:59 pm

Edison made things that worked. Zgonnik has just written a speculative paper in a scientific journal. It would be nice to have some reason to believe him. His qualification is that he works for a company promoting this notion.

davidmhoffer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 24, 2022 11:03 pm

Well then how did he get the journal to publish? Are scientific journals in the habit of publsihing articles with zero merit?

Be carefull how you answer that one Nick…

Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 24, 2022 11:23 pm

It is a mystery.

davidmhoffer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 24, 2022 11:37 pm

So you’ll be clling out papers similarly lackingin credentials in the future from the alarmist side of the fense also Nick> Somehow
i doubt it.

Bob boder
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 3:50 pm

As is your endless self delusion Nick.

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 25, 2022 1:02 am

Nick is a messenger in this case. Don’t shoot him.

alastair gray
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
July 25, 2022 7:21 am

So in other cases he is a fair target for culling. How very Davos of you!

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
July 25, 2022 10:14 am

Why not?

Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
July 25, 2022 2:37 pm

There was a very famous “messenger” for a tyranny in World War II. He wasn’t shot, though – committed suicide before he could be properly hung.

Willing dissemination of propaganda that leads to mass murder is, in my book, a very good reason to remove someone from the body politic. (Note that I do not consider the ultimate sanction necessary in this case – yet.)

Barry
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 25, 2022 5:04 pm

Pretty sure they do.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 29, 2022 11:27 am

Let’s face it, scientific journals DID publish BS reports about climate change, you know! Without ANY proof or evidence, even to this very day! Just sayin…

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 4:51 am

Yeah, that’s my problem with the consensus, Nick

Lrp
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 5:46 am

Google says he has a PhD in chemistry. Is that ok with you?

bigoilbob
Reply to  Lrp
July 25, 2022 8:59 am

Unlike sinecurist Pat Frank, I can’t recall a single post of Nick’s mentioning his career. Looks like dozens of practical publications. But I found this long ago.

https://csiropedia.csiro.au/csiro-medals-1992-research-achievement-dr-nick-stokes-and-the-fastflo-team/

Mr.
Reply to  bigoilbob
July 25, 2022 3:12 pm

Up thread, Nick criticized Zgonnick for working for a company that was promoting a possible resource prospectus.

Yet here’s a video of Nick working for a company that was promoting a software package it developed.

Buggered if I can see any difference in their activities.

Reply to  Mr.
July 25, 2022 4:15 pm

No criticism. But it is relevant information in evaluating what is a very speculative scientific paper.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Graemethecat
July 25, 2022 4:48 am

Yeah but education didn’t get scrapped by the designer brain lefties back then.

LdB
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 12:21 am

Yep some discussion published by CSIRO so it must be crap … lets move on
https://www.publish.csiro.au/aj/AJ20044

Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
Reply to  LdB
July 25, 2022 1:29 am

The Green Lobby will oppose this.

They will want their Hydrogen to come from their intermittent windmills via Electrolysis.

Expect them to label it as a Fossell Fuel.

Michael VK5ELL

DHR
Reply to  Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
July 25, 2022 6:01 am

Which of course it is.

tetris
Reply to  DHR
July 25, 2022 9:48 pm

Hydrogen a “fossil fuel”? Well, well. Hadn’t heard that one before.
The most abundant molecule in the universe produced by Dinos and ferns decaying on an blueish planet in a galaxy far, far away…..

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
July 25, 2022 1:12 pm

At the same time that the EU has declared natural gas to be sustainable?

KcTaz
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
July 25, 2022 3:09 pm

Yes, also, nuclear.

EU: Natural Gas and Nuclear are now Green Energy
https://bit.ly/3mZHWr9
1/4/22
Eric Worrall

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
July 29, 2022 11:34 am

Basically, in the final analysis, EVERYTHING is ‘sustainable’, since nothing much escapes this planet, other than Musk missiles, etc. ALL molecules remain here, and are continuously recycled. Some on a VERY long time schedule, of course.

Yossarian
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 6:14 am

May God save us from “academic status.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 7:03 am

Exploring geological sources of natural hydrogen with the goal to extract it for mankind’s benefit. 

PhD in Chemistry, Pos-doc in geochemistry. Nine years of experience in natural hydrogen including two years of research and seven years of management of hydrogen exploration project. 

Author of the most comprehensive review on natural hydrogen: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0012825219304787. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zgonnik/

Robert W Turner
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 26, 2022 3:07 pm

I notice that Viacheslav Zgonnik seems to have no academic status.”

So more legitimate since it is funded by the real world, where they expect results?

davidmhoffer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 24, 2022 11:02 pm

Sometimes Nick you are over the top obtuse. Why do you suppose companies apply for permits? So they can drill, which costs money. Why do they drill? To find out if they have a resource that will cost still more money to commercialize. So characterizing this as “no-one seem to have done anything” is just trolling at its finest.

That said, I’m skeptical that these exploratory inititiatives will do anything other than cost their investors a lot of money. But I’m not going to pee all over the idea because things are only at the permitting stage and authors have no fancy letters behind their name.

Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 24, 2022 11:25 pm

So they can drill, which costs money.”
Or, possibly, so they can sell the rights to someone else. Or so they can try to raise money.

davidmhoffer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 24, 2022 11:34 pm

The only way they can sell rights to someone else is for their drilling program to show results worth buying…Stop being silly Nik, your original statement was absurd, you could apologize for a false accussation and move on or just keep blowing smock up everything’s @ss

AndyHce
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 25, 2022 1:55 am

I suspect a gold mine site or two has been sold to investors based on evidence of good ore — that unfortunately did not come from the proposed mine site.

alastair gray
Reply to  AndyHce
July 25, 2022 7:23 am

We arte talking Oz . Land of Poseidon Nickel and some dodgy gold mines

Mr.
Reply to  alastair gray
July 25, 2022 3:30 pm

At least Oz hasn’t had a Solyndra scam.
Yet.

michael freeman
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 25, 2022 5:59 am

Nick doing his monty python Black Knight impression again..

Bob boder
Reply to  michael freeman
July 25, 2022 3:53 pm

Lol

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 3:28 pm

CSIRO issued licenses for your FreeFlow software for free Nick?

Seems to me that you did all the work on developing that software package for CSIRO and all they gave you was the equivalent of an “Employee Of The Month” award.

CSIRO became a closet crony capitalism player decades ago.

You cop lots of criticism on this forum Nick, but your expertise is often on display.

It’s just such a disappointment that you’re caught up in nonsense dogma such as AGW and 100% wind & solar utility scale electricity solutions.

Reply to  Mr.
July 25, 2022 6:11 pm

CSIRO licensed Fastflo to NAG of Oxford, which distributed it commercially. CSIRO has a very open requirement to earn at least 30% of its funding by such means.

The distribution arrangement finished nearly 20 years ago, but googling Fastflo CSIRO still gives a fair response.

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 8:58 pm

Yes you should be proud of your work on this Nick.

I too know how satisfying it is to see numerous users solving their challenges by applying software systems that we created for them.

It shows that you undoubtedly have advanced technical creative abilities.

So my frustration with your postings here is –
how come you can get so sucked in by the patently scientifically inadequate, unsound hypotheses that hold that CO2 drives dominant weather and climate behaviors, when past and contemporary observations tell us that this just isn’t the case?

And beyond that, your seeming acceptance of the claims that wind & solar farms can ever satisfy 100% of utility scale dispatchable electricity supply. With or without fantasised utility scale future battery storage breakthroughs.

I mean, this is just a straight numbers exercise, your field of demonstrated professional expertise.
The numbers just don’t add up, no matter how many ways they are “tweaked”.

?

Barry
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 5:11 pm

Lame, Nick. I actually like a few of your posts.

KcTaz
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 25, 2022 12:23 am

It may be that since Hydrogen is “green, ” the taxpayers will be forced to finance this like we have to finance and subsidize windmills and solar panels. I’m sure if this were found, or thought to be found in the US, the Biden adm. would be thrilled to offer billions in subsidies to their pals, er hydrogen explorers for this.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  davidmhoffer
July 25, 2022 9:41 am

Sometimes?

HotScot
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 25, 2022 1:03 am

Finding the stuff is only the beginning of the problems. Storage, transportation, distribution, adaptation and use are all problematic. Hydrogen has a nasty habit of embrittling a variety of materials I believe.

Which sounds really negative, and I don’t mean to be but our governments expect all this change in a single generation. It’s taken hundreds of years to create a sophisticated, mixed source (Coal, Natural gas, hydro, nuclear, petrol, diesel etc.) grid system throughout the world, that can’t just be replaced at will.

Of course if it comes off, everyone will go apesh!t over it and plan to convert everything, cars, home heating , industry, transport etc. to the wundergaz, and then one day we find ourselves like Germany today. Held to ransom by single source suppliers, be they countries or super corporates.

commieBob
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 5:23 am

Yep.

Transporting hydrogen as a gas or liquid isn’t the only option. There is a ton of work on using ammonia as a hydrogen carrier. As well, there are major projects using other chemicals as hydrogen carriers. link link

Ammonia is widely used as a fertilizer so it has an infrastructure. It also has the advantage that it can be burned in engines or used directly in fuel cells. The marine industry has shown great interest in ammonia. I think that is because it requires the least changes to ship construction. example

Ammonia is dangerous but we have a lot of experience using it safely.

According to the statistics, ammonia (NH3) had a worldwide production of 235 million tonnes in 2019, making it the second highest produced chemical commodity after sulfuric acid (H2SO4) (Soloveichik, 2017a).

link

HotScot
Reply to  commieBob
July 25, 2022 9:05 am

That’s all fine, but I don’t believe it’s possible to convert global fossil fuel infrastructure to a brand new, so far entirely untested infrastructure, in a single generation. That’s what I’m getting at.

The major projects you mention will go through the same generational competition to be accepted as hydrogen carriers as coal, gas, oil etc did to establish dominance in their particular speciality, until an equilibrium is established and each method finds its preferred markets, assuming all survive.

That in itself is a monstrous undertaking, and no country has even seriously begun upgrading their National Electricity and Gas/Hydrogen networks for a transition.

Then a seemingly insignificant problem within all this is transportation. Mass transit must be dramatically improved as the car will become a very expensive luxury. We are overdue a transition to shared vehicle ownership, it should be happening now if we are to achieve that in a generation but no meaningful signs of it yet.

And if we are to have a truly trans continental mass transit system, what’s to be done about the gauge of railway tracks? Literally millions of miles of track will need to be torn up and re-laid to a common gauge. Which country’s standard will that conform to?

The UK has been fighting for 30 years to have a single extra runway added at Heathrow. 20 years on we’re still waiting for a single nuclear power station to be completed and, similarly, HS2 (a new high speed rail line running from London to Leeds(?)) hasn’t made meaningful progress other than to be gradually reduced in scope. It will take at least ten years to complete when construction begins.

Just three projects which are relatively insignificant relative to what’s being proposed to eliminate fossil fuels within around 25 years.

To ensure our Electric Vehicle transition by 2030 – 8 years away, we need to dig up and re-lay every power supply to every home with off road parking (around 60% of households) to ensure at least one EV can be charged at home. Many homes have two cars, some even more.

That will be absolutely necessary until some means of shared ownership/self driving cars can be introduced, at which point all that electrical infrastructure will just be abandoned unless it’s to be used as a shared car network itself.

But the biggest obstacle of all to all of this is the political, legal and legislative underpinning.

I’ll mention one more thing. The thermal qualities of Hydrogen are significantly inferior to Natural gas or petroleum. The only way to overcome that, as far as I can see, is volume. This means a great deal more transportation of ammonia or other chemical carriers of Hydrogen, not to mention its generation and/or refinement.

I’m not suggesting any of this isn’t possible, just that it’s certainly not possible by 2050, not even fractions of it.

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 1:21 pm

Hot Scot,

Pretty good points. Three things:

  1. My former employer developed, built and tested composite cryogenic hydrogen tanks, successfully. (I was not involved in that project.)
  2. Here in North America (Mexico, the US and Canada), commercial railroads use 4’8-1/2″ gauge track. You folks in England, Scotland and Wales do as well, as do the folks on the Continent. The trains don’t change gauge in the Tunnel. The English-Scottish-Welsh loading gauge is a bit restrictive compared to the Continent, but trains are reasonably interchangeable. No need to rebuild the infrastructure.
  3. Some construction is well underway on HS2. I suspect that 10 years is optimistic, however.
Reply to  commieBob
July 25, 2022 2:49 pm

Have you not noticed that “Nitrogen” is rapidly replacing “Carbon” as another name for “Satan”? The “Greens” will never allow it.

commieBob
Reply to  writing observer
July 25, 2022 7:54 pm

Their real motivations become clear when you realize that they oppose anything that might work.

Mario Lento
Reply to  writing observer
July 27, 2022 3:04 pm

Yes Nitrogen, which accounts for the vast majority of our atmosphere is now on the endangered list!

Matthew Schilling
Reply to  commieBob
July 26, 2022 11:42 am

Well, a single atom of carbon can be used to transport 4 atoms of hydrogen. So there’s that.

Scissor
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 8:07 am

Engineering is pretty far along. Even a first time user is able to figure out how to fill up a vehicle without any more training than directions shown on a dispenser.

tetris
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 25, 2022 9:55 pm

The EGU recently published a paper that shows that over a 30 year horizon, hydrogen has a stronger atmospheric impact than CO2. Only on a 100 year horizon might there be any benefit.
The core problem is hydrogen leakage, and any benefit even over a 100 year horizon is dependent on technologies as yet undeveloped, to curtail/stop systemic hydrogen leakage.

Robert W Turner
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 26, 2022 3:18 pm

I know of some wells funded by the DoE that actually had a 2% hydrogen assay out of basement rock drill stem tests. Basement petroleum fields exist, so the there is a chance that natural hydrogen fields could exist. Not going to speculate on the economics

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 1:34 am

Where?

Nick,
For an academic you seem to be curiously unable to use Google Scholar.

Neal, C. and Stanger, G., 1983. Hydrogen generation from mantle source rocks in Oman. Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 66, pp.315-320.

Geymond, U., Ramanaidou, E., Lévy, D., Ouaya, A. and Moretti, I., 2022. Can weathering of banded iron formations generate natural hydrogen? Evidence from Australia, Brazil and South Africa. Minerals, 12(2), p.163.

Prinzhofer, A., Moretti, I., Françolin, J., Pacheco, C., d’Agostino, A., Werly, J. and Rupin, F., 2019. Natural hydrogen continuous emission from sedimentary basins: The example of a Brazilian H2-emitting structure. International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, 44(12), pp.5676-5685.

Reply to  Philip Mulholland
July 25, 2022 2:16 am

Your first paper says
Isotopic and chemical evidence indicates that hydrogen is formed by low-temperature redox reactions in a closed groundwater environment.”
No energy source there.
The second is just about trace H2 in iron ore. The third is about generation in soil, but
“hydrogen released through the soils of the studied structure is recharged daily”
There isn’t a storage there. My query was about these
“discoveries of substantial underground gas fields which mostly contain almost pure hydrogen”
 

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 2:31 am

My query was about these

“discoveries of substantial underground gas fields which mostly contain almost pure hydrogen”

Discovery is the aim of exploration drilling!

Order of events:

  1. Drill a prospect.
  2. Discover a resource.

You are asking for certainty a priori

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Philip Mulholland
July 25, 2022 7:08 am

Yes, there would be no oil industry if guarantees are required.

Of course, tough luck to a company if they drill a dry hole or ten, that’s their issue.

But hit a gusher and there is the govt demanding massive royalties and their “fair share”.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 6:05 am

It’s at least interesting…

https://geoscientist.online/sections/unearthed/natural-hydrogen-the-new-frontier/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285732914_Hydrogen_exploration_A_review_of_global_hydrogen_accumulations_and_implications_for_prospective_areas_in_NW_Europe

Whether blue, green, gray or white… I still think the hydrogen-powered economy will always be just over the horizon, along with nuclear fusion.

Last edited 16 days ago by David Middleton
Editor
Reply to  David Middleton
July 25, 2022 8:32 am

Dave Middleton ==> I agree that hydrogen is just too too volatile and “sneaky” to be used comfortably outside of a very very controlled industrial environment.

Don’t agree on fusion….they’ll get it someday, hopefully soon.

Meab
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 25, 2022 9:31 am

Fusion has a long ways to go.

The first milestone is scientific breakeven, getting as much energy out of the reaction as you put in – not accounting for the fact that you put in laser power or high energy particles and you get heat out. No one has yet achieved the first milestone but it’s probably pretty close.

The second milestone is engineering breakeven – you get enough fusion power out (heat) that you can make as much electricity as you put in. Since there are huge losses in making laser power or accelerating particles and converting heat to electricity is only 40 to 50% efficient, this requires about a factor of 10 improvement over #1.

The 3rd milestone is cost breakeven – you make enough electricity to pay all the costs of the machine, separating the deuterium, making the Tritium, operating the machine, and handling the radioactive waste (D-T fusion creates radioactive waste). This requires another factor of 10 to 50 improvement over #2.

The bottom line is a factor of 100 to 500 improvement is needed before you’ll see a commercial fusion device. It’s not going to happen any time soon – fusion is being dishonestly promoted.

By the way, I’m a PhD Nuclear Engineer (fusion emphasis)..

Editor
Reply to  Meab
July 25, 2022 10:38 am

Meab ==> That there are unrealized breakthroughs needed is not in question.

Meab
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 25, 2022 1:26 pm

There have been dozens of different concepts explored over more than 50 years of research into fusion, yet achieving the first milestone hasn’t yet happened. There’s no reason to believe that rapid progress, progress 10s of times faster than historical, is suddenly going to happen.

Realistically, fusion reasearch will be a long, slow grind and fusion won’t be competitive with fission anytime in the foreseeable future.

Bob boder
Reply to  Meab
July 25, 2022 3:56 pm

It’s only 50 years away and has been for 75 years

HotScot
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 25, 2022 10:17 am

By 2030. And I believe they have achieved all their targets so far.

https://www.tokamakenergy.co.uk

Editor
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 10:53 am

HotScot ==> Fusion energy is still a scientific controversy about which there are a lot of conflicting opinions and warring facts.

Bob boder
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 3:56 pm

Lol

bigoilbob
Reply to  David Middleton
July 25, 2022 9:03 am

Agree with you and Kip on hydrogen. Agree with you on both.

Bob boder
Reply to  David Middleton
July 25, 2022 3:55 pm

Nuclear fusion is only 50 years away David

Matthew Schilling
Reply to  David Middleton
July 26, 2022 11:46 am

I don’t like the thought of an aging hydrogen-powered vehicle, twenty years from now, sitting in the sun in a busy parking lot.

Robert W Turner
Reply to  David Middleton
July 26, 2022 3:25 pm

It’s economical to separate helium at 1% but I don’t think anyone wants to be paying $100+ per mcf for hydrogen.

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 8:30 am

Nick ==> I fear you are absolutely correct.

Tom Foley
July 24, 2022 11:01 pm

So we have a potential energy resource which has not been developed, may never be commercial, and if it does may last only two decades? And that’s going to imminently undermine solar and wind, which for all their problems, are already producing energy and can do so infinitely (at least as long as the sun lasts)? Clutching at straws, eh?

Lawrence Ayres
Reply to  Tom Foley
July 24, 2022 11:18 pm

I still think nuclear is superior but then the Chinese, Indians and many more ask why not just use coal and improve crops at the same time. Good question.

Moderately Cross of East Anglia
Reply to  Tom Foley
July 25, 2022 12:45 am

Clutching at straws is believing that wind and solar can ever power a civil, modern, technological society. Sadly, there seem to be a lot of damn fools who believe such nonsense and are willing to deprive large numbers of their fellow citizens of a decent life to chase this delusion.

Steve Case
Reply to  Moderately Cross of East Anglia
July 25, 2022 1:48 am

Sadly, there seem to be a lot of damn fools who believe that wind and solar can power a civil, modern, technological society.
________________________________________________

BINGO! One of my favorite liberals thinks exactly that.

DHR
Reply to  Tom Foley
July 25, 2022 6:24 am

Unfortunately Tom, solar and wind machinery cannot operate “at least as long as the sun lasts.” The machinery has short lifetimes and must be replaced about 5 times per century. Some of the materials for new machines can be recycled from the old, but not all. Thus so far as we now know, wind and solar electricity production can only be sustained as long as the required raw materials are available; a few hundred years perhaps. And the electricity they produce is so erratic than it cannot sustain a modern economy.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Tom Foley
July 25, 2022 7:12 am

Wind and solar can produce indefinitely as long as you are willing to live in a mud hut and subsistence farm with power intermittently during the day.

Funny how we never see a proposal to build a completely off the grid city powered only by renewables to show it in action.

Maybe you can be the first?

Lawrence Ayres
July 24, 2022 11:15 pm

I would love to see Twiggy Forrest’s face when he is advised of this. The carpetbaggers are not going to be happy and neither will some governments.

KcTaz
Reply to  Lawrence Ayres
July 25, 2022 12:27 am

What makes you think hydrogen won’t grow its own bundle of carpetbaggers? It is, alledgedly, “green,” after all and no amount of taxpayer money it too much since it’s to “Save the Earth from CAGW,” don’t you know?

Editor
July 24, 2022 11:17 pm

If it has any chance of being successful, the greens will oppose it. Maybe Nick Stokes has already proved me right?????

LdB
Reply to  Mike Jonas
July 25, 2022 12:23 am

He has 🙂

The reason the greentards will oppose it is obvious because they don’t get freebies dished out and a complete rework of the economy.

Last edited 16 days ago by LdB
MARTIN BRUMBY
Reply to  LdB
July 25, 2022 1:35 am

Too right, LdB.

Although I wouldn’t call it a “rework” of the economy.

Is there a word “antiwork”?

Richard Patton
Reply to  Mike Jonas
July 25, 2022 9:22 am

Correct. The Green’s goal is not to save the planet but to “fundamentally re-structure the world’s economic system.”

Matthew Schilling
Reply to  Richard Patton
July 26, 2022 12:11 pm

“Greens” oppose re-establishing the American Chestnut tree, rescuing it from the blight that wiped it out over a century ago, with a couple genes from wheat. The wonderful, essentially free bounty from billions of American Chestnuts was a huge boon for Americans, as well as for wildlife. The loss of that bounty was appalling, devastating.

Massive, fruitful American Chestnuts can and should be wonderful, productive assets once again. Millions of them could be showering thousands of square miles of woodlands with free, high quality food in just a couple decades. And their tall, thick, straight trunks could convert millions of tons of atmospheric CO2 into highly prized hardwood.

We just need irrational eco-zealots to drop their fatwa against the restoration.

Editor
Reply to  Matthew Schilling
July 26, 2022 12:42 pm

Matthew ==> Cornell University in New York state has a long running program on Chestnut Restoration, using naturally immune American Chestnuts. The American Chestnut Foundation does both natrual breeding os immune trees and breeding genetically modified for immunity.

These effrots re unlike to find themselves topped by the eco-nuts.

Matthew Schilling
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 27, 2022 4:50 am

I’m under the impression that, apart from the Darling 58 tree (wheat genes spliced into true American Chestnut) the others have a lot of Chinese chestnut in their genomes. I think deer, squirrels, and bears will eat up those chestnuts without complaining. But the American Chestnut stands apart as a superb tree, with higher quality wood and fruit. Further, it was the native tree killed by the 100’s of millions when an invasive species set upon them. I vote for the American Chestnut being re-established. Set the Darling 58 free!

Editor
Reply to  Matthew Schilling
July 27, 2022 8:47 am

Go Chestnuts!

George
July 24, 2022 11:25 pm

This may be a dumb question, but doesn’t burning hydrogen produce water vapour, which is a greenhouse gas ?

According to the IPCC, “The combined water vapour and lapse rate feedback
makes the largest single contribution to global warming” (Ref: IPCC AR6 WG1 Technical Summary, TS.3.2.2 Earth System Feedbacks).

Seems to contradict the fight against global warming.

bill
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 24, 2022 11:45 pm

the operative word is condensing greenhouse gas and it will, so a bit a small bit of rain.

KcTaz
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 25, 2022 12:31 am

Indeed, Eric. The IPCC seems intent on not admitting anything other than CO2 could possible be a greenhouse gas. We’re not supposed to consider all that water vapor in the atmosphere. It’s verboten to even mention it!

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  KcTaz
July 25, 2022 1:38 am

Haven’t you heard? The IPCC are now insisting methane and nitrous oxide are “powerful” GHG’s, even though there are vanishingly small quantities in open atmosphere and their IR response wavelengths are entirely covered by that of water vapour. Expect to see “dihydrogen monoxide is worst GHG evah” if this takes off.

Richard Patton
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
July 25, 2022 9:27 am

The Biden Administration is already pulling a similar stunt. Trying to restrict drilling in the Permian basin of West Texas and Eastern New Mexico because of nitrogen gas (which forms 70% of the atmosphere) “pollution.”

Barry
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 25, 2022 5:26 pm

Don’t share the secret, let them find it on their own. If you can get them to investigate. Most won’t.

Reply to  George
July 25, 2022 12:02 am

Water vapour is in constant exchange with the sea. Each year about 500000 Gtons evaporate, and are returned as rain. We emit about 30 Gtons of CO2 every year. No amount of water we might produce is going to make a dent in those flows.

KcTaz
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 12:51 am

Where does the CO2 go, Nick? Nature does find a few uses for it, you may recall.

Reply to  KcTaz
July 25, 2022 2:03 am

A lot of it stays. That is why we now have 415 ppm in the air. Or, it you prefer, about 1055 Gtons more CO2 than when it was at 280 ppm. We’ve emitted about 2000 Gtons (counting land use).

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 8:35 am

Nick ==> Still not enough — but it is improving….

HotScot
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 25, 2022 10:32 am

It’s entirely illogical to consider that whilst C3 plant life must have adapted to flourishing at 1,000ppm – 1,200ppm atmospheric CO2, they would do so with global temperatures as high as alarmist’s would have people believe at that level.

A doubling of atmospheric CO2 from pre industrial atmospheric CO2 levels of 280ppm – 560ppm would, we are assured, represent a 2ºC rise in global temperatures.

A doubling of 560ppm to 1,120ppm would logically, therefore represent a 6ºC rise in global temperatures over pre industrial levels which, in most cases, C3 plant life would be unlikely to survive.

How did C3 plants therefore adapt to flourish at CO2 levels of 1,000ppm+?

Editor
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 10:56 am

Hot ==> There are scads (a scientifically determined quantity) of studies on high levels of CO2 and Temperature combinations on various plants.

However, there are no answers to hypotheticals about evolutionary paths.

Last edited 15 days ago by Kip Hansen
HotScot
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 25, 2022 4:39 pm

Kip

Richard Horton, the editor of the Lancet, told us a few years ago that up to 50% of peer reviewed medical science was junk.

Climate science simply can’t approach medical science in terms of rigour, so SCADS in this domain are, at best, questionable.

What’s worse is, as you point out, there are black holes worth of stuff we simply don’t know about which makes claims as to what can and can’t happen, absolute nonsense.

My claim is based on what we do know i.e. that C3 plant life flourishes at 1,000ppm – 1,200ppm. We know this because farmers have found this to be the optimum levels to use in their greenhouses.

The question of rising atmospheric CO2 relative to global temperature rise is, to the best of my knowledge, the numbers quoted by the IPCC. They may not be correct but that’s the ‘official’ data the alarmist community have used for years.

The rest is just straightforward arithmetic anyone can understand.

My point as always is, that unless we begin expressing our perception of climate change in a manner the public can understand, being that only a tiny percentage of the public understand science, then we are missing yet another opportunity to bring some sanity into the debate.

The climate narrative is being shredded at the moment by Joe Biden around the world. He’s done more in 18 months to bring home the reality of reckless policies than the sceptical community have done in 40 years.

If we don’t seize the moment and communicate with the public in a language they understand, albeit perhaps ‘illustrative’ rather than factual, we will end up repeating the endless losing battle of countering propaganda with fact.

Propaganda is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Everyone understands it. Scientific fact can never compete.

Ask a thousand people in the street what a SCAD is and I’ll bet you get 999 blank stares.

Editor
Reply to  HotScot
July 25, 2022 6:04 pm

Hot Scot ==> I’m just not really getting your point — sorry — been a long comment thread. We probably agree.

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 1:52 am

Interesting. CO2 bonds to water on contact, which is why every drop of rain that falls is a mild solution of carbonic acid. None of our 30 Gtons bonds to 500,000 Gtons of water?

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 2:12 am

Water vapour is in constant exchange with the sea. Each year about 500000 Gtons evaporate, and are returned as rain. We emit about 30 Gtons of CO2 every year. No amount of water we might produce is going to make a dent in those flows.

Nick,
I think you mean 30 Gtons of water vapour here.

Reply to  Philip Mulholland
July 25, 2022 2:56 am

Phillip,
No, I meant CO2, but thinking that possible emission of water from combustion would be similar.

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 11:43 am

No, I meant CO2, but thinking that possible emission of water from combustion would be similar.

Nick,

Your basic premise that the mass of water produced by combustion is a small fraction of the total water flux from natural evaporation is correct.

However as a geoscientist I would like to challenge your presentation of these issues. The combustion of hydrogen (from whatever chemical source) produces water H2O which is a light molecule (MW =18 amu). The combustion of carbon produces CO2 which is a heavy gas (MW = 44 amu).

Now if we assume CH2 as the average equation for a typical aliphatic hydrocarbon polymer, then during combustion for every one carbon atom that is used to create CO2 we use two hydrogen atoms to create one water molecule. Put simply if 30 GTons of CO2 is emitted by combustion of hydrocarbons, then the proportionate ratio is 18 water to 44 CO2 and so the mass of water emitted by combustion will be 12.3 Gtons of water.

My calculated figure of 12.3 Gtons of water will be a overestimate for the following reason. Coal has a low hydrogen content and so the mass of water created by burning coal for a given CO2 emission will be significantly less.

Note also that the emission of CO2 by cement production from limestone rock is a chemical process that does not involve the formation of water. The CO2 in cement production comes from the alteration of the calcium carbonate mineral feed-stock to calcium oxide during heating.

Editor
Reply to  George
July 25, 2022 8:34 am

George ==> I’m afraid the battle against atmospheric water vapor has been lost — many many millions of years ago.

srinkerp
July 24, 2022 11:30 pm

Ha ha! “Naturally occurring hydrogen”! Even if it was ubiquitous and easy to extract, the effort required to compress and/or liquify it and transport it safely is astonishing and makes up most of its cost.

Scissor
Reply to  srinkerp
July 25, 2022 8:23 am

Yes, the economics have to work.

If found at depth, then it’s compressed to some extent already, but of course there there will be a loss of energy associated with processing and transportation. Show me the hydrogen.

amike
Reply to  srinkerp
July 25, 2022 2:18 pm

Why liquefy and transport it? It suffices to consume it directly on the operating site to produce electricity or another chemical component, not to mention synthetic liquid fuels. It is liquefied only if hydrogen is needed as a green fuel. If it is in its natural state, you might as well use it immediately. This is why fossil hydrogen is (would be) the nightmare of ecologists.

Reply to  amike
July 25, 2022 3:07 pm

IF your deposit is large enough to both provide a flow rate sufficient to justify the significant capital investment to exploit it on site – and will continue for long enough to amortize that investment (plus a reasonable net profit).

Whether such deposits exist is still very unsettled science – despite Nick’s claim that it is a settled “no.”

H B
July 24, 2022 11:35 pm

Hydrogen is of interest as it gives credence to the near dead wind and solar industries as a way of storing useless surplus electricity.
The fact that it is dangerous and difficult to store is of no consequence to the snake oil sales persons promoting it .

July 24, 2022 11:56 pm

There is a more informative, accessible, though also speculative paper here. It is hopeful, but:
” The prediction and subsequent identification of subsurface H2 that can be exploited remains enigmatic and awaits robust exploration guidelines and targeted drilling for proof of concept.”

LdB
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 12:25 am

Yeah it’s CSIRO so no-one cares when an actual miner gets interested enough to lodge a SEO wake me.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Eric Worrall
July 25, 2022 11:50 am

Moreover, H2 would be a lot safer to use if it could be burned at the resource site instead of transported, compressed, distributed hither and yon….

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Nick Stokes
July 25, 2022 11:49 am

Paper : Hydrogen in Australian natural gas: occurrences, sources and resources
Thanks Nick.

Ignat Korchagin
July 25, 2022 12:11 am

Information about the discovery of basalt volcanoes with hydrogen during the technology testing

In the process of approbation of direct-prospecting methods in various regions, during instrumental measurements, the procedures for fixing responses at the frequencies of basalts and hydrogen were almost universally performed. Some results of the experimental work are presented in abstract form below.

Areas where basalts come to the surface. In order to study the features of the basalt rocks distribution in cross-section, frequency-resonance processing of photographs of the basalts outcrop to the surface in various regions of the globe was carried out [14]. As a result, the roots of the canals of 26 basalt sights were identified: 1) Geological natural monument “Basalt pillars” (Rivne region, the village of Basalt, 195 km); 2) Basalt pillars of the Giant’s Road in northern Ireland (194 km); 3) Los Organos Rock (Homer Island, Canary Islands, 194 km); 4) Devil’s Tower in the USA (195 km); 5) Litlanesfoss waterfall (Iceland, 190 km); 6) Akun Cave (northwest Alaska, Aleutian Islands, 195 km); 7) Gen da Dia (pearl of Vietnam, 195 km); 8) Takachiho Gorge (Japan, 195 km); 9) Cape Stolbchaty (Kunashir Island of the Kuril chain, 195 km); 10) Three Devils Grade Moses Coulee mountain range (USA, 195 km); 11) Pain de Sucre (Caribbean, 195 km); 12) Nan Madol temple complex (Pohnpei island, Micronesia, 195 km); 13) Mount Jackson Creek (Victoria National Park, Australia, 194 km); 14) Mount Beerwah (Glass House Mountains, Australia, 194 km); 15) Staff Island (Scotland, 195 km); 16) Fingal’s Cave (Staff Island, Scotland, 195 km); 17) Scandola Osani (Corsica, 195 km); 18) Alcantara River (Italy, 195 km); 19) Castellfollit de la Roca (Catalonia, Spain, 195 km); 20) Aldeyjarfoss waterfall, (Iceland, 195 km); 21) Svartifoss waterfall (Iceland, 195 km); 22) St. Mary (India, 194 km); 23) Basalt columns (Hong Kong, 195 km); 24) S-shaped basalt deposits (Hong Kong, 195 km); 25) Garni Gorge (Armenia, 195 km); 26) Kunashir Island (Kuril Islands, 195 km).

Fifteen photographs of basalt rocks from the above list are presented in one of the figures in the article [14]. Other photographs (including those not listed) can be found on various Internet sites.

Areas of volcanic complexes in Kamchatka. In the area of ​​the Klyuchevskaya group of volcanoes, four local areas have been processed [10]. Responses at hydrogen frequencies were recorded from the surface in all areas.

When scanning the cross-section from the surface, with a step of 1 m, responses of hydrogen were recorded in the following intervals: the upper rectangle, from 500 m to 57 km; lower left – from 400 m to 57 km (the signals are more intense further); upper right – from 440 m; lower right – from 150 m to 700 km.

During processing a satellite image of a fragment of a large area in the region of ​​ Uzon volcanic complex, signals of hydrogen were also recorded and the presence of a basaltic volcano with a root at a depth of 723 km was established [21].

Ukrainian shield. During vertical sounding of cross-section along four profiles on the Ukrainian Shield (USh), responses of basalts and hydrogen were recorded within a number of surveyed areas [11, 13].

Degassing zone in the area of ​​point No. 3 of the 1st profile. During frequency-resonance processing of zone image, response of hydrogen was recorded without delay. The root of basalt channel was identified at a depth of 470 km. By scanning cross-section with different steps, the signals of hydrogen were recorded from 50 m and traced up to 16000 m.

Degassing site in the area of ​​point No. 9 of the 1st profile. During image processing, an intense response at the hydrogen frequency was recorded.

When scanning cross-section with steps of 1 m and 10 cm in the interval of 180-1450 m, responses of granites were recorded. On the surface of 1450 m from the lower part of cross-section, responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded; there were no signals at these frequencies from the upper part of the cross-section. By fixing the responses of basalts at various depths, the root of the basalt channel was established at a depth of 470 km. 

District with v. Basaltovoye in the Rivne region. In the survey area, photographs of three sites where basalt deposits came to the surface were processed. In all three sites, intense responses were recorded at the resonant frequencies of hydrogen. The roots of basalt volcanoes are found at a depth of 723 km.

Plot near point No. 10 of the 3rd profile. During image processing, signals of living water and hydrogen were registered. In the depth interval of 215-105000 m, responses were recorded at the frequencies of basalts, and at depths of 105-195 km – from kimberlites. On the surface of 105 km, signals of hydrogen were recorded only from the upper part of cross-section.

Plot near point No. 2 of the 4th profile. Signals of living water, hydrogen and basalts have been registered. The root of the basalt channel was recorded at a depth of 723 km. By scanning cross-section from the surface with different steps, responses at basalt frequencies were recorded from a depth of 140 m, and at hydrogen frequencies from 190 m and traced up to 723.012 km. Signals of the water were recorded in the range up to 200 m.  

Plot near point No. 3 of the 4th profile. Signals of living water, hydrogen (intense) and basalts were registered. The root of the basalt channel was recorded at a depth of 723 km, the upper edge was refined by scanning with a step of 1 cm at a depth of 241 m. Signals at hydrogen frequencies were recorded starting from a depth of 245 m. Responses at water frequencies were recorded up to 240 m.

Plot near point No. 6 of the 4th profile. Signals from water, hydrogen and basalts were registered. The presence of a basaltic volcano with a root at a depth of 723 km and an upper edge at around 100 m was established. Signals at hydrogen frequencies were recorded in the range from 160 m to 723 km.

Plot near point No. 7 of the 4th profile. Signals from water, hydrogen and basalts are recorded. The root of the basalt volcano was determined at a depth of 723 km, the upper edge was 850 m. Signals at hydrogen frequencies were recorded in the range from 860 m to 723 km.

North-eastern part of Azerbaijan. In the north-eastern part of Azerbaijan, 6 local areas of hydrogen degassing have been surveyed. Within all these areas, responses were recorded at the frequencies of hydrogen and basalts [14]. The roots of basalt channels (volcanoes) are found at a depth of 723 km. The minimum depth of the upper edge of basalts in one of the areas is 1170 m, and the detection of signals from hydrogen is 1350 m.

Local site on Mars. In [15], the results of frequency-resonance processing of individual fragments of a satellite image of the surface of Mars from the north pole to the south, obtained from the ESA satellite “Mars Express” are presented. When processing an image of a local area with a volcano, responses were recorded only from hydrogen (intense) and the 6th group of igneous rocks (basalts). The root of the basalt channel (volcano) was identified at a depth of 450 km; when scanning from the surface with a step of 10 cm, signals of basalts began to be recorded from 9 m. Signals of hydrogen also began to be recorded from 9 m, responses were traced up to 500 km.

On the surface of 9 m, signals of the 7th group of sedimentary rocks (limestones) were received from the upper part of cross-section. When scanning the cross-section from the surface with a step of 5 mm, the responses of these rocks were obtained from a depth interval of 20 cm – 9.05 m.

Port area of ​​Cape Town (South Africa). Research of hydrogen was also carried out in the area of ​​the port of Cape Town (South Africa). Responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded within the lower rectangular contour of the survey area. When scanning the cross-section with a step of 1 m, responses of basalts were obtained in the depth range from 210 m to 95 km, and signals of hydrogen began to be recorded when measurements were taken from 260 m. Responses of water in basalts were obtained when scanning from 350 m; signals were also recorded at the surfaces (depths) of 50 and 69 km (it can also be said that the responses were traced from 350 m to 69 km).

Drilling site in England. During processing a satellite image of the well for shale gas location in England, responses of hydrogen and basalts were also recorded [16, part 2]. Signals of basalts were recorded up to 95 km. This indicates that the dark areas in the image are actually local zones of hydrogen degassing.

With this in mind, images of eight such local zones were processed separately. As a result, responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded within each of these zones. Signals of basalts were recorded up to 95 km.

The territory of the Ripkinsky district of the Chernihiv region. During frequency-resonant processing of the area image, signals of hydrogen and basalts were recorded [16, part 2]. The root of the basalt volcano was identified at a depth of 723 km. By scanning cross-section from the surface, with a step of 1 m, signals of basalts began to be recorded from 120 m and were traced up to 723 km. Responses of hydrogen during scanning with a step of 1 m were recorded from 230 m and traced up to 723 km. Note that hydrogen signals were also obtained at depths of 724 and 1774 km (outside the basalts).

On the district territory, a small area of ​​visible hydrogen degassing was additionally processed. Within its limits, a local zone is also distinguished. When processing the image without a local zone, signals of basalts, hydrogen, and water were recorded. The root of basalt channel (volcano) is set at 470 km. By scanning cross-section with a step of 1 m from the surface, responses of basalts were recorded from a depth of 230 m, of hydrogen – from 300 m, and of water – from 280 m. Signals of water were also obtained at a depth of 10 km.

When processing an image of one local zone, responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded. The root of the basalt channel was identified at a depth of 723 km. By scanning cross-section with a step of 1 m from the surface, responses of basalts were recorded from a depth of 90 m, of hydrogen – from 120 m, and of water – from 100 m!

Plot near the city of Yelsk (Republic of Belarus). Intense responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded at the survey site [16, part 2]. By scanning cross-section from the surface with a step of 1 m, signals of basalts began to be recorded from 140 m and were traced up to 723 km. Responses of hydrogen were recorded from 185 m and also traced up to 723 km; we note, however, that they were fixed further.

On the survey area near Yelsk, additional studies were carried out within three small areas of visible hydrogen degassing.

Within the first site, by scanning cross-section with a step of 1 m from the surface, responses of basalts were recorded from a depth of 180 m (traced to 723 km), and of hydrogen, from 240 m.

Within the second site, by scanning from the surface with a step of 1 m, responses of basalts were recorded from a depth of 120 m (traced to 723 km), and of hydrogen, from 180 m.

Within the third site, signals of basalts and hydrogen were recorded and traced up to 723 km. By scanning within the local zone from the surface with a step of 1 m, responses of basalts were recorded from a depth of 150 m, and of hydrogen, from 190 m.

Unfortunately, the responses of water from the depth interval of cross-section (from the basalt interval) were not recorded within all three survey areas.

The area near the city of Mstislavl (Republic of Belarus). Within the survey area, responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded [16, part 2]. The root of the basalt volcano was identified at a depth of 723 km. When scanning cross-section from the surface with a step of 1 m, responses of basalts were recorded from 160 m, and of hydrogen, from 210 m, and were traced up to 723 km.

Shebelinskoye gas condensate field area. A satellite image of a large area has been processed, within which the Shebelinskoye gas condensate field is located [16, part 2]. Within its limits, intense responses of hydrogen and basalts have been recorded. The root of the basalt volcano was recorded at a depth of 723 km. By scanning cross-section from the surface, step 1, responses of basalts began to be recorded from a depth of 860 m, and of hydrogen – from 930 m.

The area of ​​the Semirenkovsky gas condensate field. When processing an image of ​​the deposit location area, responses of hydrogen and basalts were recorded [16, part 2]. The lower edge of the basalts was established at a depth of 95 km.

Kamin-Kashirsky district of the Volyn region. Responses of hydrogen, water (deep) and basalts were recorded on the territory of the region [16, part 2]. The root of the basalt volcano was found at a depth of 723 km. Responses of water on the surface of 69 km were obtained from sedimentary rocks of 1, 2, 6, 7th groups, as well as from basalts.

When processing the image of the local degassing zone, the responses of hydrogen (very intense) and basalts were also obtained. By scanning cross-section from the surface with a step of 1 m, responses of basalts were recorded in the interval from 175 m to 723 km, and of hydrogen, from 260 m to 723 km.

Unfortunately, no signals were received from water (deep water) within this local area.

Local site in the Rozhishchensky district of the Volyn region. Numerous zones of visible hydrogen degassing can be seen on satellite images in the Rozhishchensky district of the Volyn region [16, part 2]. When processing an image of one of these zones, responses of hydrogen, water (deep water) and basalts were recorded. The root of the basalt volcano was identified at a depth of 723 km. At the surface of 68 km, water responses are obtained from basalts.

Water in basalts began to be recorded from 120 m, responses were traced up to 69 km. When scanning from the surface, with a step of 1 m, responses of basalts were obtained from 120 m, and of hydrogen – from 260 m and traced up to 723 km.

Survey sites in areas of longevity. The known areas of longevity on the islands of Okinawa (Japan), Sardinia (Italy), Ikaria (Greece), on the Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica), in the Hunza Valley (Pakistan), in the Kodori Gorge (Abkhazia), as well as the settlements of Lerik (Azerbaijan), Loma Linda (California, USA), Oymyakon (Yakutia) were investigated [16, part 2].

As a result of the work carried out, it was established that all these surveyed areas, in which centenarians live, are located within deep channels (volcanoes) with roots at a depth of 723 km and filled with basalt rocks. In the contours of these volcanoes at a depth of 69 km, living water is being formed. Almost in the entire range of basalts in volcanoes, responses from hydrogen are recorded. It can be concluded that the use of hydrogen-enriched drinking water contributes to longevity.

Frequency-resonance processing of a satellite image of the site with estate of the long-lived and prominent British politician Winston Churchill was also carried out. During the experiments, signals of basalts and hydrogen were registered. The root of the basalt volcano was identified at a depth of 470 km. Signals of the water were recorded up to 68 km.

Australia. On the territory of Australia, a survey of the sites of three lakes location (including Leake and Edward) was carried out. Responses of hydrogen, water, and basalts were recorded at all sites. The root of the basalt volcano was recorded at a depth of 470 km. The upper edges of the basalts are defined in the depth interval of 6-7 km. Above this surface, signals from limestones were recorded. At the site of Lake Leake, signals were received from living water at the surface of 68 km, from dead water at a depth of 59 km.

Gulf of Mexico. In the area of the emergency well location in the Gulf of Mexico, five separate areas (domes in the bottom topography) were surveyed [17]. Within one of them (a dome without a name), responses of hydrogen, water (deep water) and basalts were recorded. The upper edge of the basalts was determined by scanning at a depth of 1650 m, and the lower boundary of the basalts was established at a depth of 95.340 km. At the surface of 1800 m, as well as at the boundary of 69 km, signals from water (deep) were recorded. Responses from hydrogen were recorded in the intervals of 1.65–90 km.

Carpathians. A basaltic volcano with a root at a depth of 470 km and an upper edge at 8680 m was found within the survey area on profile 2 in the site of ​​point No. 8 [20]. Responses at hydrogen frequencies were recorded from the entire interval of basalts fixing, and of deep water – from the beginning of fixing responses of basalts to a depth of 57 km.

Vinnytsia region. In [20], the materials of the frequency-resonance processing of a satellite image of a fragment of the territory in Teplitsky and Bershad districts of Vinnitsa region are presented. When examining the southeastern part of the work site, signals of hydrogen, deep water and basalts were recorded from the surface. The root of the basaltic volcano is established in the interval of 95-96 km. The upper edge of the basalts was recorded at a depth of 240 m by scanning cross-section from the surface, step 1 m. When scanning from 240 m, signals of hydrogen began to be recorded from 250 m, and of water, from 243 m. Intense responses of water from basalts were recorded from 260 m.

Objects of the solar system. In the process of carrying out experimental work of a reconnaissance nature on the planets and satellites of the solar system, the emphasis was on the “discovery” of rock types known (well studied) on Earth, as well as chemical elements [19]. As a result, responses at the frequencies of hydrogen and basalts were recorded on the Sun, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Ganymede, Callisto, Galileo, Moon, Europa, Titan.

Manicouagan Crater (Quebec, Canada). The Manicouagan crater is considered to be an impact structure. During frequency resonance processing of a satellite image of the crater, a basalt volcano with a root at a depth of 723 km and an upper boundary at around 35 m was discovered. Responses at hydrogen frequencies were recorded within the crater (in the depth range from 42 m to 75 km (no further measurements were made)), “living” water (in the depth interval of 85–1000 m (further measurements were not carried out)) [18].

District of the city of Borisoglebsk (Voronezh region). When processing an image of a relatively large fragment of the territory near the city of Borisoglebsk, responses of phosphorus, hydrogen, deep water, and basalts were recorded from the surface [21]. The root of the basaltic volcano was identified at a depth of 217 km.

At the surface of 1 m, responses of hydrogen were recorded from the upper part of cross-section with a delay. These results of instrumental measurements indicate the migration of hydrogen into the atmosphere.

Khmelnitsky region. On satellite images in some areas of the Khmelnytsky region, zones of hydrogen degassing are observed. Local fragments of images of three areas were processed [23].

When processing an image of a fragment of the first survey site, responses of hydrogen, living water, phosphorus (white), and the 6th group of igneous rocks (basalts) were recorded from the surface. By scanning cross-section from the surface, with a step of 10 cm, the upper edge of the basalts was fixed at a depth of 20 m. By fixing the responses at various depths, the root of the basalt volcano was established at a depth of 723 km.

At the surface of 0 m, responses of hydrogen were obtained from the upper part of cross-section, which indicates its migration into the atmosphere.

By scanning the cross-section from the surface, with a step of 10 cm, responses of hydrogen began to be recorded from 30 m, and of living water – from 42 m. Signals were traced by scanning up to 300 m.

Responses of living water were recorded at the surface of 57 km, and of dead water – at 59 km.

During image processing in the second area, the presence of a basaltic volcano was established – responses at basalt frequencies were recorded in the depth interval of 12 m – 723 km. Signals at the frequencies of living water began to be recorded from a depth of 27 m.

When processing fragments of the image in the third area, the presence of a basalt volcano was established – responses at basalt frequencies were recorded in the depth interval of 37 m – 723 km. Signals at the frequencies of living water began to be recorded from a depth of 45 m.

Arctic. Instrumental measurements confirmed the presence of large areas of hydrogen degassing in Yakutia. Large-sized basalt volcanic complexes were found within six survey areas. The diameter of one of the identified structures exceeds 100 km. Facts of hydrogen migration into the atmosphere were confirmed in five areas. From above, basaltic rocks are overlain by limestones, dolomites and marls, in which accumulations of hydrogen can be found. Additional instrumental measurements in the region of one of the surveyed areas show that siliceous rocks are a fairly effective cover for the hydrogen accumulation in the underlying reservoir rocks [24].

Germany. Responses of basalts, hydrogen, and living water were also recorded in several areas and survey sites in Germany [24]. The presence of large zones of hydrogen degassing in Bavaria has been confirmed. In the contour of one of the surveyed sites in Bavaria, responses of oil, condensate, gas, amber, carbon dioxide, bacteria, phosphorus (yellow), oil shale, gas hydrates, anthracite and sedimentary rocks of 1-6th groups were registered, and the fact of gas (methane) migration into atmosphere was established. Within its limits, it is expedient to carry out detailed prospecting for oil and gas.

France and Holland. Basalt volcanoes with hydrogen and living water have been found in three areas in France (including the monitoring site for hydrogen degassing), as well as in the area of ​​a geothermal station in Holland. Accumulations of natural hydrogen in the surveyed areas can be found in rocks overlying basalts [24].

Greenland. Within area of the Maniitsoq structure location in Greenland, a volcanic complex with a root at a depth of 723 km, filled with ultramafic rocks, was found, which is an additional argument in favor of the endogenous nature of its origin [24]. The position of the volcano root at a depth of 723 km indicates the ancient age of the structure. A basaltic volcano with a root at a depth of 99 km and an upper boundary at a depth of 15 m was discovered at the surveyed site of hydrogen degassing, located near the Maniitsoq structure.

Canada. Signals of phosphorus, hydrogen, living water, limestones, and also basalts from the interval of 5.160-470 km were registered on the survey area near the uranium deposit in Canada. Responses from hydrogen were recorded during scanning with a step of 1 m from two intervals in limestones: 3420–3520 m and 3615–3860 m [24].

Texas (USA). The results of a reconnaissance survey of local areas and large blocks in Texas indicate the expediency of carrying out detailed geological exploration within them in order to search for ore and combustible minerals, natural hydrogen, and also healing water enriched with hydrogen [24].

Brazil. On the territory of Brazil, signals at the frequencies of basalts, hydrogen, and living water were recorded by instrumental measurements at four sites in the area of ​​the local zone of monitoring for the hydrogen migration into the atmosphere, as well as at the site of wells with aquifers in basalts. These areas also deserve a detailed study in order to search for accumulations of natural hydrogen (including those in deposits overlying basalts) [24].

Antarctic. Signals of basalts, hydrogen, phosphorus, living and dead water have been registered in the area of ​​the Ross crater in the Antarctic region. The fact of hydrogen migration into the atmosphere was established [24].

Okinawa (Japan). Reconnaissance studies on the island of centenarians Okinawa confirmed the presence in this region of a basalt volcano (volcanoes?), within which responses of hydrogen and living water are recorded [24]. Hydrogen signals on the island have been scanned from several intervals in the dolomites above the basalts. On the island of Okinawa, it is expedient to carry out detailed searches for hydrogen and living water.

Bermuda Triangle. In the area of ​​the Bermuda Triangle and the Bermuda Islands themselves, responses of phosphorus (red and yellow), hydrogen, living and dead water, and basalts have been recorded. The upper edge of the basalts in the area of ​​the triangle was recorded at a depth of 74 m, and the root of the basalt volcano was determined at a depth of 723 km. On the surfaces of 74 m and 0 m, responses of hydrogen were obtained from the upper part of cross-section, which indicates its migration into water and into the atmosphere [24].

Chernihiv region. The frequency-resonant processing of the satellite image and photograph of peat bogs in the Chernihiv region once again confirmed the presence of basalt volcanoes with hydrogen and living water in the sites and areas of their (peat bogs) location. At the survey site, the fact of hydrogen migration into the atmosphere was established. In this regard, it can be assumed that hydrogen also burns during fires in peatlands [24].

Republic of Belarus. When carrying out reconnaissance studies at the Rechitsa oil field (Republic of Belarus) in order to detect hydrocarbon deposits in the deep horizons of cross-section and in the crystalline basement, responses of basalts, hydrogen and living water were also recorded from the surface. At the location of the field, the maximum depth of oil deposits at 3550 m was estimated by instrumental measurements. When processing a satellite image of a larger area with a field area, responses of oil were recorded by scanning up to 15 km, as well as on the surface of 15 km from the lower part of cross-section and at the boundary of hydrocarbon synthesis at a depth 57 km. When conducting detailed studies using direct-prospecting methods, areas with hydrocarbon deposits at great depths can be localized. With the help of frequency-resonance technology of satellite and photographic images processing, optimal zones for drilling wells for hydrogen and living water can be determined. The location of the Rechitskoye field is quite favorable for organizing drilling for natural hydrogen and living water [24].

Kazakhstan. When processing a satellite image of the western part of the Tepke prospecting block, within which a large oil field was discovered in Kazakhstan, responses from salt, 1-6, 7th (limestones) and 8th (dolomites) groups of sedimentary rocks, as well as 1st (granites), 6th (basalts), 7th (ultramafic), 11th (kimberlites) groups of igneous rocks and 15-16 groups of metamorphic rocks were recorded by instrumental measurements. Responses of hydrogen were also recorded from the surface. The position of the basalt volcano with hydrogen can be determined in the process of areal works in the western part of the Tepke block [24.

Mali. A survey in the reconnaissance mode of a relatively large block in the area of ​​the hydrogen production site in Mali testified to the presence in this region of basalt volcanoes with hydrogen and living water. It is expedient to continue prospecting works in order to discover new deposits of hydrogen in this area [24].

Williston Basin (USA). The experimental studies carried out on the area of ​​the shale oil play in the Williston Basin in the north of the United States once again confirmed the presence of hydrocarbon deposits in the deep horizons of cross-section [16, part 5]. Responses of oil, condensate, gas, and amber were obtained within the play at the boundary of hydrocarbon synthesis at 57 km. When scanning cross-section from the surface up to 10 km, signals at oil frequencies were obtained from 5 intervals of deposits search. At the surface of 10 km, responses from oil, condensate, and gas were also recorded, which indicates their presence in the deep horizons of cross-section.

In the north of the United States, east of the Williston basin, the existence of a huge (by area) cluster of basalt volcanic structures with hydrogen and living (healing) water was confirmed by instrumental measurements, and the process of hydrogen and phosphorus (red) migration into the atmosphere was fixed within the basalts. 

A large number of experiments with methane-oxidizing and hydrogen bacteria were also carried out within the surveyed area in the northern United States. The measurement results showed that methane-oxidizing bacteria create their colonies only in the areas of gas (methane) migration into the atmosphere, while hydrogen bacteria – only on site of hydrogen migration. The thickness of the layer (interval) of the cross-section with bacteria does not exceed 450 cm. This allows us to conclude that bacteria do not produce methane and hydrogen, but use these gases to maintain the viability of their populations. The facts of recording responses from bacteria during instrumental measurements are additional criteria for the presence of methane and hydrogen accumulations in the survey areas.

Yilan Crater (China). In the area of ​​the Yilan impact crater in China, by reconnaissance studies have been discovered a diamond-bearing kimberlite volcano with a root at a depth of 723 km and an upper edge at 610 m. Responses from diamonds during scanning of cross-section began to be recorded from 763 m. An additional survey of seven local areas was carried out around the crater, the results of which are as follows [16, part 5]:

A) Seven volcanic complexes were identified within the seven survey sites. These are volcanoes filled with the following complexes of sedimentary and igneous rocks: 1) 1-6 groups of sedimentary rocks; 2) limestones; 3) dolomites (2 volcanoes); 4) marls; 5) granites; 6) basalts.

B) The root of a granite volcano was recorded at a depth of 996 km. The roots of all the other six volcanoes have been identified at a depth of 723 km. From the interval of 723-996 km, responses from granites were recorded in all local areas.

C) In the contours of a granite volcano, responses at gold frequencies were recorded and the depths of the upper edge of granites, as well as the minimum depth of fixing responses from gold, were estimated. Signals from coesite and mercury were also registered.

D) Within the limits of the basalt volcano, responses were recorded at the frequencies of hydrogen, phosphorus and living (healing) water. The depths of occurrence of the upper edge of basalts and fixation of responses from hydrogen and living water from basalts are estimated.

Pridneprovskaya area. Four volcanic complexes were discovered within the oil and gas prospecting area, in the contours of which hydrocarbon synthesis occurs at a depth of 57 km, as well as a basalt volcano, through which hydrogen migrates into the atmosphere. In general, the results of the studies confirm the assumptions of the researchers about the migration of hydrocarbons in the area from the deep horizons of the cross-section [16, part 5].

Shelf of Côte d’Ivoire. The presence of two volcanic structures, filled with limestones and basalts, was established at a local well drilling site on the shelf of Côte d’Ivoire, and the facts of gas, phosphorus and hydrogen migration into the atmosphere were established [16, part 5]. It should be noted that two volcanoes were also found in the local area of well drilling in the Turkish sector of the Black Sea.

Barents Sea. In the local area of ​​the exploratory well 7122/6-3S drilling in the Barents Sea, the presence of a volcanic complex, filled with ultramafic rocks was established by instrumental measurements, and the intervals of the cross-section, promising for the for oil and gas deposits searching, was determined by scanning cross-section with large steps of 50 cm and 1 m.

During processing a satellite image of a larger area in the site of ​​ 7122/6-3S well, the presence of volcanic complexes, filled with sodium chloride salt, limestones, dolomites, marls, siliceous rocks, as well as basalts, ultramafic rocks and kimberlites, was established [16, part 5].

Resort center in Truskavets. The surveyed areas near the city of Truskavets are promising for prospecting for minerals, oil, gas and natural hydrogen, including [16, part 5]. At the site in Truskavets, the interval of responses, determined by scanning at hydrogen frequencies, is located under the metamorphic rocks of the gneiss group directly. This circumstance indicates that these rocks can be effective seals for reservoirs with natural hydrogen. Previously conducted experimental studies in the areas of basalt complex’s location showed that siliceous rocks can also serve as tires for the of hydrogen accumulations formation.

It is advisable to carry out detailed prospecting and drilling in the surveyed areas in order to assess the prospects for organizing works for the natural hydrogen production.

Elbrus region. Volcanic structures filled with limestones, dolomites, marls, siliceous rocks, granites, basalts and ultramafic rocks were found in separate survey areas along the Elbrus geoelectric profile. Signals at the frequencies of hydrogen and phosphorus (red) were recorded in the contours of the basalt volcano, and signals from oil, condensate, and gas were recorded within the limestone-filled volcanic complex [25].

Ukraine. Along the seismic profile of 2021 on the territory of Ukraine, the survey was carried out in 18 areas. Basalt volcanic structures with hydrogen and living water were found at 11 sites! Signals at the frequencies of oil, condensate and gas were recorded at 8 sites in volcanic complexes, filled with sedimentary rocks of 1-6 groups, at 2 sites – in limestone volcanoes. HC responses were also obtained within some volcanoes filled with salt, granites, and ultramafic rocks. A diamond-bearing kimberlite volcano was also found in the profile area.

Romania. Four basaltic volcanic structures with hydrogen and living water were found in the profile area on the territory of Romania. Responses from oil, condensate and gas have been recorded from a volcano filled with 1-6 groups of sedimentary rocks and two limestone volcanoes. Diamond-bearing kimberlite volcanic complexes were found in two areas near the profile [25].

District of the city of Vasilkov (Ukraine). The basaltic volcanic complex with hydrogen and living (healing) water was localized by instrumental measurements in the area to the west of the town of Vasilkov. This part of the territory is promising for the accumulations of natural hydrogen searching in cross-section, as well as living water. Also interesting and important are the results of cross-section scanning within the discovered basalt volcanic complex. In this area, predicted accumulations of natural hydrogen in dolomites can be found in 4 layers in the upper part of cross-section. This feature of the cross-section structure in the area, promising for the hydrogen deposits searching, was recorded by instrumental measurements on the territory of Ukraine for the first time.

John Hultquist
Reply to  Ignat Korchagin
July 25, 2022 8:19 pm

I’m unclear what all of the above is about.

On the other hand, I can assure you that “Three Devils Grade Moses Coulee mountain range (USA, 195 km)” is not a mountain range.
You can see it here: 47.4387457, -119.799494
It is described as a valley on (or in) the Columbia Plateau.
I live 22 miles from the opening of Moses Coulee; Three Devils Grade is another 17 miles into the Coulee.

Tony
Reply to  Ignat Korchagin
July 26, 2022 2:18 am

Well done on creating the internet’s biggest comment. Even tho I didn’t read it.

KcTaz
July 25, 2022 12:19 am

Even if this is true and I have my doubts, it still leaves all the other problems inherit to using hydrogen as a fuel which are explained very well in this article.

The Hydrogen Hoax
https://bit.ly/3I3lKpw

Excerpt:
…The situation is much worse than this, however, because before the hydrogen can be transported anywhere, it needs to be either compressed or liquefied. To liquefy it, it must be refrigerated down to a temperature of 20 K (20 degrees above absolute zero, or -253 degrees Celsius). At these temperatures, the fundamental laws of thermodynamics make refrigerators extremely inefficient. As a result, about 40 percent of the energy in the hydrogen must be spent to liquefy it. This reduces the actual net energy content of our product fuel to 792 kilocalories. In addition, because it is a cryogenic liquid, still more energy could be expected to be lost as the hydrogen boils away during transport and storage.
As an alternative, one could use high pressure pumps to compress the hydrogen as gas instead of liquefying it for transport. This would only require wasting about 20 percent of the energy in the hydrogen. The problem is that safety-approved, steel compressed-gas tanks capable of storing hydrogen at 5,000 psi weigh approximately 65 times as much as the hydrogen they can contain. So to transport 200 kilograms of compressed hydrogen, roughly equal in energy content to just 200 gallons of gasoline, would require a truck capable of hauling a 13-ton load. Think about that: an entire large truckload delivery would be needed simply to transport enough hydrogen to allow ten people to fill up their cars with the energy equivalent of 20 gallons of gasoline each.

Instead of steel tanks, one could propose using (very expensive) lightweight carbon fiber overwrapped tanks, which only weigh about ten times as much as the hydrogen they contain. This would improve the transport weight ratio by a factor of six. Thus, instead of a 13-ton truck, a mere two-ton truckload would be required to supply enough hydrogen to allow a service station to provide fuel for ten customers. This is still hopeless economically, and could probably not be allowed in any case, since carbon fiber tanks have low crash resistance, making such compressed hydrogen transport trucks deadly bombs on the highway.
In principle, a system of pipelines could, at enormous cost, be built for transporting gaseous hydrogen. Yet because hydrogen is so diffuse, with less than one-third the energy content per unit volume as natural gas, these pipes would have to be very big, and large amounts of energy would be required to move the gas along the line. The vast surface area offered by a system of hydrogen pipelines would thus afford ample opportunity for much of the hydrogen to leak away during transport.
As hydrogen diffuses into metals, it also embrittles them, causing deterioration of pipelines, valves, fittings, and storage tanks used throughout the entire distribution system. These would all have to be constantly monitored and regularly inspected, tested, and replaced. Otherwise the distribution system would become a continuous source of catastrophes.

Simonsays
Reply to  KcTaz
July 25, 2022 1:41 am

Don’t see any problems that can’t be fixed with massive government subsidies.

Rainer Bensch
Reply to  KcTaz
July 25, 2022 5:33 am

What would be much more valuable is to know how the hydrogen remained where it was found.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  KcTaz
July 25, 2022 12:09 pm

One should look for natural formational conduits and impervious traps that might form a reservoir for the hydrogen. Alternatively, fracking and cementing in could form a reservoir for accumulation at a suitable depth.

ACParker
July 25, 2022 12:20 am

The obvious solution to the problem of hydrogen storage, distribution and low energy density is to bind it with carbon.

Editor
Reply to  ACParker
July 25, 2022 8:36 am

Ac ==> Not only easy, but hydrocarbons are so useful……

Last edited 16 days ago by Kip Hansen
John Hultquist
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 26, 2022 9:51 am

 C₂H₆O

Editor
July 25, 2022 12:36 am

I’m with Nick Stokes on this one. Get back to us when someone actually successfully drills and finds an economically viable H2 source in commercial quantities.

w.

LdB
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
July 25, 2022 12:39 am

There will be lots of companies trying to extract OPM (other peoples money) on the concept just like there are twenty Australian listed companies messing around in the area of green hydrogen

ADX Energy (ASX: ADX)
AGL Energy (ASX: AGL)
Environmental Clean Technologies (ASX: ECT)
Eden Innovations (ASX: EDE)
Fortescue Metals Group (ASX: FMG)
Global Energy Ventures (ASX: GEV)
Hazer Group (ASX: HZR)
Hexagon Energy Materials (ASX: HXG)
Incitec Pivot (ASX: IPL)
Lion Energy (ASX: LIO)
Montem Resources (ASX: MR1)
Origin Energy (ASX: ORG)
Pilot Energy (ASX: PGY)
Pure Hydrogen Corporation (ASX: PH2)
Province Resources (ASX: PRL)
QEM Limited (ASX: QEM)
Sparc Technologies (ASX: SPN)
SRJ Technologies (ASX: SRJ)
TNG Limited (ASX: TNG)
Wesfarmers (ASX: WES)

The issue for the greentards will be there is no kickbacks on offer and no complete changing of economy so it’s going to meet resistance.

Last edited 16 days ago by LdB
Geoff Sherrington
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
July 25, 2022 1:03 am

Willis,
Me too.
The classic way that a resource becomes developed is in the early days for free hydrogen. A bit like the 1960s when little companies like ours decided to explore for uranium, which turned out abundant for global needs for the time being.
Only time and competent exploration will resolve the basic hydrogen parameters.
Of much more concern is why current scientists in formerly elite places like CSIRO have lost sight of the wisdom of the Scientific Method to become mouthpieces for pop science. I am ashamed to see this happen to Australia.
Geoff S

MARTIN BRUMBY
Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
July 25, 2022 1:52 am

Geoff S
Absolutely spot on.

The battalions of “scientists” who are quite prepared to destroy their reputation by flying in the face of the Scientific Method, for political reasons (and sheer cowardice), are shocking.

Although Mark Steyn managed to find some prepared to call out that blatant fraud Michael Mann, in his great book “A Disgrace to the Profession”, there are still many who lionise Mann and the other Fraudsters, Ehrlich, for example.

None of this will end well.

Herbert
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
July 25, 2022 3:11 am

Willis,
Totally agree.
Dr. John Constable in GWPF Report No.44, 2020,“Hydrogen:The once and future fuel?” has forensically examined the feasibility of Hydrogen as a fuel source and refutes the idea in 75 pages.
Even the UK CCC has a list of problems which Dr. Constable summarises.
What annoys me is that the Australian Government and State Governments have invested some $1.2 billion in “hubs” for Green hydrogen and CCS around the country without any publicly published feasibility studies.

Joao Martins
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
July 25, 2022 3:31 am

Willis, the question is further upstream: where are the industrial processes based in hydrogen, which would need so much of the stuff as to turn its mining profitable? The use of hydrogen in the economy is balanced by its production, as far as I am aware there are no problems with excess demand or excess offer. And it seems that there is no rationality in expecting a huge increase of the need of those processes.

The only hope or wishful thinking is the utilization of hydrogen as a source of energy, but it seems that for now and the near future (and the not so near, given the chemical characteristics of the stuff) that is in the realm of science-fiction.

Mikehig
Reply to  Joao Martins
July 25, 2022 6:13 am

There is quite a market for hydrogen: annual consumption is 70 – 80 million tons. Virtually all of that is produced from methane so is CO2-intensive.
There are thousands of km of H2 pipelines in the US and Europe. Some in Germany date back to pre-WWII.
Also, until displaced by natural gas, many towns and cities had gas networks that were supplied from local gas works using coke. That gas was typically about 50% hydrogen.
So we have many decades of experience with hydrogen showing that it can be handled, despite the various challenges already mentioned.
One other drawback which does not get much airtime is the production of NOx. Hydrogen’s flame temps are much higher than gas which promotes the formation of NOx when burnt in air. This may require the fitment of some form of catalytic converters on domestic boilers etc which would need regular testing and maintenance.
Lastly, it is often suggested that hydrogen could be transported and utilised by blending into the natural gas network. However this overlooks the fact that most gas turbines used in power stations cannot accept any dilution with hydrogen.

griff
July 25, 2022 1:20 am

If it exists, sure, drill for it…

but elsewhere green hydrogen is a useful contributor because it can use surplus renewable energy which can’t be transmitted elsewhere (can’t be used due to low demand)

LdB
Reply to  griff
July 25, 2022 1:34 am

Number of operating Green Hydrogen Production plants
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1311948/number-of-green-hydrogen-plants-by-country/
Biggest player Australia … the irony cuts deep 🙂

The UK is clearly a undeveloped Griff get your act together … more bird choppers required STAT.

Last edited 16 days ago by LdB
MARTIN BRUMBY
Reply to  griff
July 25, 2022 1:42 am

Ballony

Ian Johnson
Reply to  griff
July 25, 2022 4:55 am

I’d have thought that electrolysis is a 24/7 process, something that renewables can’t provide electricity for.

joe x
Reply to  griff
July 25, 2022 5:55 am

griff, did you actually use the words “surplus renewable energy” in your post?

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  joe x
July 25, 2022 6:55 am

grief thinks “surplus” and “inadequate” are synonyms.

Lrp
Reply to  griff
July 25, 2022 6:14 am

Lying again!

HotScot
Reply to  griff
July 25, 2022 10:43 am

There is no such thing as “surplus renewable energy”. There is only a cost analysis to determine whether its cost effective to use or not, other than by political or commercial mandate.

MARTIN BRUMBY
July 25, 2022 1:30 am

Gosh, Natural Hydrogen!

I bet our genius politicians in the UK will have banned it within a week!

Vuk
July 25, 2022 1:42 am

No wind, solar panels not working well in the hot sunny UK.
National Grid was forced to issue an emergency appeal to Belgium to keep Britain’s lights on
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/24/britain-forced-beg-belgium-power-keep-lights/

Last edited 16 days ago by Vuk
Vuk
Reply to  Vuk
July 25, 2022 2:18 am

“Two days of record-breaking temperatures last Monday and Tuesday also put power supplies under strain. Heat reduced the efficiency of solar panels and other generators and disrupted transmission lines, just as demand rose and wind power fell.
Experts said it cast doubt on the Grid’s ability to cope during the “looming iceberg” of winter, when gas supplies are expected to be under far more severe pressure and Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia, may cut off shipments to Europe altogether.”

LdB
Reply to  Vuk
July 25, 2022 2:19 am

Haha working as predicted then 🙂

Peta of Newark
July 25, 2022 2:04 am

??

and considering Hydrogen, the one and only Led Zep
haha

Tony
July 25, 2022 2:43 am

Good luck exploiting underground natural H seriously. If oil is dangerous, imagine the potential danger of something even more volatile.

H.R.
July 25, 2022 3:41 am

If hydrogen pockets are 1/2 as common as the authors seem to think, I don’t understand why pockets of Hydrogen haven’t already been drilled into, at least a few times, by companies drilling for oil and gas.

Or maybe they have, but it was ignored because that wasn’t what a company was looking for. From an oil company’s perspective, it’s a dry hole. “Hmmph. Nothing here.”

HotScot
Reply to  H.R.
July 25, 2022 10:46 am

Other than they may have been blown to kingdom come by accidentally hitting one.

David Dibbell
July 25, 2022 4:08 am

Interesting. But even better than finding natural deposits of H2, let’s keep exposing the unsound origins of widespread carbon dysphoria. The hard realities of reliable energy supply cannot be wished away. Natural deposits of hydrocarbons are not scarce, and it will eventually be rediscovered that emissions of CO2 were never capable of driving the climate to a bad outcome.

Simon Derricutt
July 25, 2022 4:11 am

Hydrogen is produced naturally when Olivine becomes wet and gradually changes to Serpentine (serpentinisation). There’s a large amount of Olivine around, and a while back I saw a proposal to mine it, crush it (to increase surface area) and wet it in containers in order to produce Hydrogen for sale. Obviously never became commercially viable, otherwise we’d have seen companies doing it. Might have something to do with the number of big Diesel trucks needed in the mining operation and the energy consumption of the overall process.

Thus it’s likely that if you have a large Olivine deposit, and you drilled and fracked it and injected water, you’d get Hydrogen out, though the reaction is slow and so the production rate of the well would also be low. Possibly some places the Olivine is naturally fractured and wet, and thus you’d find pockets of Hydrogen occasionally, but they would be of limited capacity since not much stops Hydrogen diffusing out.

Thus the proposal isn’t total b*ll*cks, but looks unlikely to be commercially viable.

Gary Pearse
July 25, 2022 4:44 am

“This review conclusively demonstrates that molecular hydrogen is much more widespread in nature than was previously thought.”

Somebody has “previously thought” it! That Dark Side trigger phrase and “23Tg/year” (not ‘somewhere around 20’) is a bit niggling, but the possibility for natural hydrogen is at least another harpoon into the Dark Side blubber of hubris!

Haven’t they already blown several 100million on asinine H2 electrolysis development? This was certain to blow up in their faces figuratively and literally. There used to be a sad refrain back in the day for a big setback: “You know it ain’t easy!”

peter schell
July 25, 2022 4:47 am

I can’t help but think that many companies might use this as an excuse to drill for NG under the pretext they are looking for Hydrogen.

“Well, darn, another hole with nothing but NG! Mark it and cap it and try again.”

H.R.
Reply to  peter schell
July 25, 2022 5:27 am

Hah! Yeah, they can do their gas exploration using hydrogen drilling permits.

Let’s hope no-one in the oil and gas industry reads your comment and gets any ideas [*wink, wink*]

ScarletMacaw
Reply to  peter schell
July 25, 2022 6:51 am

That was my first thought too Peter.

Gavin Hardy
July 25, 2022 5:40 am

No doubt you will have heard of the South Seas Bubble. Perhaps this should be called the South Australian Bubble?

Dr. Bob
July 25, 2022 5:42 am

The only use for Hydrogen if not combusted or used in a fuel cell is to use it to reduce CO2 back to hydrocarbon fuels. This is extremely well known technology used by refineries throughout the world. The Fischer-Tropsch synthesis of hydrocarbons has been around for 100 years. At least the end product is a drop-in replacement for diesel and jet fuel.
What is insane through is the production of hydrogen by electrolysis and producing E-Fuels. One cannot fathom the amount of power needed to do that.

DHR
July 25, 2022 6:00 am

Then of course are the very high energy requirements and special materials requirements to compress, store, and ship hydrogen to end users – much more for these services than required of natural gas. Can anybody make a buck from such hydrogen? This remains to be established.

CharlesMartell
July 25, 2022 6:19 am

H2 is a very tiny molecule, and as mentioned by others here can embrittle metals, etc. Can the usual capstone rock formations that contain oil and natural gas deposits effectively retain H2? A relatively easy experiment to do, tho I’m guessing the permeability of H2 in shale etc is known.

Kevin kilty
July 25, 2022 7:55 am

There are possibly reactions which could result in hydrogen as by-product. For instance corrosion of elemental metals like iron in the presence of groundwater or possibly decomposition of water at high temperatures. Deposits of free hydrogen in anything other than trace amounts, and under common conditions, are not very likely. Remember folks, the natural resources industry has always been full of dreamers and promoters who can make absurdities sound like solid investments — i’ve examined patents of such.

Editor
July 25, 2022 8:29 am

Hmmmmm……if and maybe and maybe sort-of…..it seems unlikely that with all the drilling that has been done that no one has been blown up by tapping into a natural hydrogen underground pool in the last 100 years.

If you are an investor, my natural skepticism urges caution….

Ed Pechin
Reply to  Kip Hansen
July 25, 2022 11:00 am

We did not get blown up when were drilling in York Nebraska in 2019!

Editor
Reply to  Ed Pechin
July 25, 2022 11:23 am

Ed ==> Did you find hydrogen? Lots of it?

Bill Rocks
July 25, 2022 8:33 am

Thanks for a fascinating article and dynamic discussions. WUWT is superb resource for people who are curious about the natural world and how it “works”.

Ed Pechin
July 25, 2022 8:37 am

We are already producing natural hydrogen near York Nebraska. I was the drilling fluids engineer on that discovery well in 2018-2019. State record depth of 11250′ or so. The company name is Natural Hydrogen Energy. FOI. Almost 8000′ of granite drilled.

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Ed Pechin
July 25, 2022 1:41 pm

Ed,

Drilling 8000′ of granite is an impressive achievement.
Have you considered looking into this technology?
Why This Fusion Tech May Be a Geothermal Energy Breakthrough

Gordon A. Dressler
July 25, 2022 8:43 am

Find all the naturally-occurring gaseous hydrogen that you want . . . then what?

How are you going to move it from the production well site to a refining/processing site and then distribute it for commercial use?

Construct a new high-pressure gas pipeline grid across Australia using only metals that are known to be insensitive to hydrogen embrittlement? Ka-ching!

Construct massive industrial-size plants to liquify hydrogen so that it can be transported and used as a more dense, but cryogenic, fluid? Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

There are three fundamental, unavoidable problems with using hydrogen as a widespread, commercial fuel:

1) Hydrogen is both extremely flammable and easily ignitable within earth’s atmosphere.

2) Mechanically sealing high pressure tanks and distribution piping against leaks is difficult due to the very low molecular weight (= small molecular diameter) of the hydrogen molecule.

3) Hydrogen (even liquified hydrogen) is ill-positioned as a replacement for other fossil fuels, especially in mobile vehicle use, due to its very low energy-density, measured on a volumetric basis:
— MJ/liter = ~3 for GH2 at 350 bar (5000 psi) . . . ~8 for LH2 . . . ~23 for liquid propane . . . ~32 for gasoline . . .~37 for diesel
(see attached graph from https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-storage )

Magically solve all three problems and then one might consider naturally-occurring hydrogen as a practical fuel source at industrial scale.

Fuel_Energy_Densities.jpg
Last edited 16 days ago by Gordon A. Dressler
Captain climate
July 25, 2022 10:25 am

You know the green Marxists are going to hate this because you have to drill for it.

Walter Sobchak
July 25, 2022 10:41 am

The Warmunists will be fervently opposed to this for two reasons.

  1. It involves stick needles into the Flesh of Gaia who is their mother goddess.
  2. It will not serve their primary political goal which is to impoverish, humiliate, and demoralize the deplorables.
Last edited 15 days ago by Walter Sobchak
Steve Z
July 25, 2022 1:31 pm

The article (abstract) lists a potential flow rate of 23 Tg/yr of hydrogen. If a teragram is 10^12 g = 10^9 kg, this comes out to about 50 billion pounds per year. The heat of combustion of hydrogen is about 50,000 Btu/lb, so burning this would yield about 2.5 quadrillion Btu (quads) of heat per year.

As a comparison, the world currently uses about 132 trillion standard cubic feet per year of natural gas, with a heat of combustion of about 900 Btu/scf, for a total heat yield of about 119 quads per year.

This means that using “natural hydrogen” as a fuel could displace about 2.1% of the current consumption of natural gas, with zero carbon emissions. It’s not a game-changer, but exploiting any concentrated areas of “natural hydrogen” may be cheaper than trying to produce hydrogen from natural gas.

The major problem with using hydrogen as a fuel is its extremely low density (on a volume basis, the heat of combustion of hydrogen is only about 31% of that of natural gas), although that problem can be resolved by adsorbing hydrogen onto solid material to concentrate it, then using heat to desorb it when it is used as fuel.

Hydrogen is also used in petroleum refineries to remove sulfur from petroleum distillates, and is normally produced by steam-reforming of natural gas. If a major source of “natural hydrogen” is found near an oil refinery, it could be transported to the refinery by pipeline, and eliminate the expense of steam-reforming.

July 25, 2022 5:46 pm

There is an informative page here from the SA government. They summarise the past H indications in the state. Apparently the reason for the rush of exploration licences is that just last year SA amended its regulations to include H in the list of things you could get a licence to explore for.

John Furst
July 26, 2022 5:24 am

Interesting. What would be the chemical reactions for hydrogen seeping into atmosphere or oceans? Is it significant enough to change climate or pH studies?
The mind wanders and wonders.

Oldanalyst
July 26, 2022 12:08 pm

In their efforts to develop commercial Helium deposits in Arizona, Desert Mountain Energy asserts that they have found commercial quantities of Hydrogen in some of their wells. They have set up a joint venture to explore commercial potential.

TallDave
July 26, 2022 2:08 pm

makes no difference, similar to solar the economics doesn’t work even if the hydrogen is free (opex)

this is why the US has 190K miles of oil pipeline, 350K natural gas, and 1.6K hydrogen

biofuel and nuclear will always be cheaper and better than hydrogen

well, until the reglaciation anyway, but that’s probably a couple hundred years at least

Last edited 14 days ago by TallDave
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