From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT
By Paul Homewood
Sheer madness!
MORE than half of all UK cars should be electric by 2028, according to the Government, as it looks to solidify plans for a Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate.
Grant Shapps is looking to set legally binding targets to speed up the shift away from petrol and diesel, and towards the mass adoption of electric vehicles. In its new report, the Department for Transport proposed legally binding annual targets that car manufacturers will be forced to meet before 2035.
In less than eight years, the Government will ban the sales of new petrol and diesel vehicles in the UK.
Just five years later, a similar ban will be introduced to restrict sales of hybrid vehicles.
The proposed scheme would start in 2024, when manufacturers would have to sell all-electric cars, which account for 22 percent of their total sales.
The Government document added: “There is a level of uncertainty based on the form of wider policy measures and future demand, but this modelling assumes that by 2030 a minimum of 80 percent of all new UK car sales are zero emission.
“It assumes a 22 percent mandate in 2024 and 52 percent in 2028.
“Alongside ZEV uptake, it also assumes further efficiency improvements to non ZEVs.”
In 2030, the European Union expects approximately 46 percent of all new car sales to be ZEV across the EU.
The document stated that the UK is a leading ZEV market in Europe, so would expect to be above this average value.
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders said that new rules “must encourage consumers to purchase, not just compel manufacturers to produce”.
SMMT chief executive Mike Hawes said: “The danger is that consumers will lack the incentive to purchase these new vehicles in the quantities needed, keeping their older, more polluting vehicles for even longer thereby undermining the carbon savings this regulation seeks to deliver.”
If this is not an admission that for most drivers EVs are absolutely useless, I don’t know what is!
It also raises the question of how these quotas will be enforced. After all, car manufacturers cannot force people to buy EVs. And we already know that huge discounts don’t make any difference, because the government has already tried them.
I have read rumours that manufacturers will be fined if they don’t hit the targets, which simply means that these will be added to the price of conventional cars, to the detriment of drivers. If that is the case, people will simply tend to buy imported cars instead, who presumably won’t be affected by the quota.
This whole business is an example of how we are all gradually losing our freedom of choice.
No subsidies! EVs are hideously expensive and inherently dangerously, so make the rich who can afford to frolic in them pay full freight!
In the UK there is also problem with charging stations. If you can find a fast charge one at a motorway junction there are long ques, while if there is a slow charge available it takes for ever. Good luck with it, but i’ll stick with my 1992 Volvo 940 that will be only 36 years old by then.
Driving one car for 36 years rather than buying ten or twelve new ones has certainly reduced the automobile industry’s emissions. Thanks for your good work.
I understand Lithium has increased 500% in recent weeks so presumably that will give a sharp twist to prices as will availability.
You know that Li production reached an all time high in 2021 of …wait for it …100,000 tonnes!
Tesla is about to go into th lithium mining biz, because they are now only able to meet growth projections if they have enough of each raw material to do so, and the whole world is now trying to build cars with huge lithium based batteries as fast as humanly possible.
But there is no news about any concerted effort to find and produce more lithium as fast as humanly possible.
Here in the US, the same people demanding an end to fossil fuel and things that use them, are actively preventing any new mines from be able to get approved.
Right now they are “studying” the impact of producing lithium from the Salton Sea brines.
That sounds great, until one realizes they have already mandated production of huge numbers of the devices that need lithium, and there is nowhere near enough of it on the world market to meet those mandates.
Quantifying California’s Lithium Valley: Can It Power Our EV Revolution? (lbl.gov)
I don’t know what percentage of lithium is in every battery, but since one battery can weight 500 kg, there is not enough Lithium to make half a million EV a year for the whole world! I think in UK alone sells of new cars are much greater than million a year.
What this stat says is, there is a limit to how many of these things we can make, because they are raw material limited.
Lithium only comes from a few places these days, and demand is way ahead of supply.
Besides for that issue, the only way half of buyers will buy an electric is if it makes economic sense to do so.
If they cannot make electric cars cheaper, they will have to make the alternatives expensive.
The big problem with these mandates is, they are invented by people who take no account of what will be required to make it so.
Making a law to be “carbon neutral” by such and such a date will not make it possible to do it.
Lawmakers are now under the impression they can ignore practicalities, that they can alter reality by decree.
Silly ideas become very dangerous when the subject at hand is the supply of the exact materials that allow us to live.
Nicholas. Haven’t you figured out that they don’t want people in cars? And this is one way of achieving that goal.
Ecoserfdom
Good point Jeff.
The real hilarious issue is what about the billions (American billions) our betters will loose in The Road Fund License to give it its intended name of fixing potholes.
Somall those numpties who buy these Skalectric cars will be hit with road milage charges to make up the difference.
My 12 year old diesel Astra with 73,000 miles on the clock is good for another 50K
back to your villages peons!
“The big problem with these mandates is, they are invented by people who take no account of what will be required to make it so.”
That’s the problem. The politicians don’t understand what they are trying to get us into. They are forging ahead with no clue.
I drove a BMW 538e for over thirty years. It was a manual transmission. Fun to drive.
In 20 years time Britain will be the new Cuba – a museum of old cars.
they have mandated everything else, why not the confiscation and crushing of old cars?
Uhhh, no. EVs are no more expensive than equivalent internal combustion vehicles. The ones you’re thinking of, the Teslas, are expensive because they are high end high performance luxury vehicles, equivalent to high end luxury vehicles from luxury brands like BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, etc. that cost the same or more than the Tesla.
You can buy a brand new 2022 EV for under, or very near, $30,000 which is about the average price of a new economy car like Toyota Corolla.
https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/
Nothing inherently dangerous, or at least more dangerous, about EVs than a gasoline fired car. Despite all the yakking about battery fires, I suppose you’ve never heard of or actually seen gas cars catching fire or exploding? (I have seen that multiple times). Do you know anything at all about the fire and explosive potential of gasoline? Oh, and by the way, did you never notice that your gas or diesel powered vehicle also has a battery in it?
It is a valid argument that the governments of free peoples should not be compelling them to buy this vehicle or that vehicle, or any other product. It is entirely a different matter of debating the relative merits of different vehicles. Though it always helps a lot to get your FACTS straight, and not rely on fallacies and myths instead of FACTS.
When ‘gas’ cars catch fire, 99 times out of 100, it was an electrical fault that caused the blaze.
Whether they were involved in a single/multiple vehicle wreck or not.
The real point is that when a gasoline car goes on fire it is easy to put the fire out.
Who in hades would be daft enough to exchange batteries at about $12000, including labor, etc., in an 8-y-old medium crossover car?
OF THE CHARTS IDIOCY
Perhaps those who prefer not to see their “old” car’s value drop to nil? Undoubtedly the biggest problem we old car owners will face is the legislation which will surely be introduced forcing us off the road – legislation concocted by high-income politicians well-fed by generous taxpayer salaries.
I don’t think this kind of legislation is possible. It would deprive millions of elderly and disabled people of mobility. Who is going to buy them food or take them to the doctor?
Also consider trade-in valuations for EV, dealers would obviously require a battery condition report and offer a trade-in price based on remaining acceptable working life retained.
Australian States require all EV and Hybrids to display a blue sticker on the front and rear registration plates to alert road traffic authorities in the event of an accident.
ICEV do not have a warning sticker requirement unless equipped with LPG dedicated system or dual fuel system, and the sticker is red.
Conventional vehicles do not burst into flames in the middle of the night while sitting in the garage.
And gas does not have much explosive potential when it is a tank of liquid.
Only clouds of vapor with the correct mix of oxygen can explode.
Toss a match into a bucket of gas and the match goes out.
Tossing a cigarette on a gas puddle will not cause it to ignite.
Electric cars are a small fraction of vehicles on the road, but they are responsible for a large number of the deaths by occupants by burning alive.
They burst into flames after even minor accidents.
They burn so fast and so hot occupants do not even have time to take off their seatbelts.
Once again Duane is completely full of shit and wrong on key details of factual information, while also being arrogantly smug and condescending while he announces and wallows in his ignorance.
Prize though for Most Strawmen In A Single Asinine Comment.
Making cost comparison with ev versus ice is always difficult as often the ev models are only ev.
However a direct comparison can still be made as there are a handful of cars available in the UK that come with a choice of ice or eV with the same trim levels.
For example the vauxhall corsa in gs trim. £19,490 ice against £27,000 ev.
Same car, same trim. Interestingly there is an even cheaper ice version that is not offered as ev.
As you say get your facts right.
Duane, what if people don’t give a rats about the “attractions” of EVs, they just don’t want one, and look forward to continuing their traditional motoring habits?
You know, as is supposed to happen in free democracies.
Duane writes in large generalities, calls for facts then overlooks the obvious. What is the useful range of a $30k ev? Battery size matters. Besides, small batteries need more charges. Battery life is mainly dependent on the number of recharges. Battery replacement is a very expensive repair especially in relation to the value of a used low end vehicle. You get what you pay for unless, of course, it’s subsidized. Generally speaking.
DuhWayne is flat-out lying. Comparable EVs, EVs with similar range to an ICE car and fast-charging cost $20,000+ more. Like most Dimocrats, DuhWayne thinks he can invent his own reality and other people who aren’t thinking-challenged will just buy into it.
He is employing a typical leftist tactic. Lie in the hope that no one looks for themselves and ignore any contrary information.
How often have gas vehicles just blown up sitting in the driveway?
Happens all the time in TV shows — so it must be real 🙂
I believe that it is the county fire department in Los Angeles that has a special unit that only works with the movie studios – ensuring safety when they pack a car with C4 to shoot a scene. (Also to make sure the inventory is kept track of!)
EVs are also incredibly difficult to put out and have a nasty tendency to reignite – for up to a week.
Yep. An advisory put out by the Bedfordshire Fire Service in the UK says
“EV fires are known to reignite hours, days or even weeks after the initial event. Recovery firms are increasingly concerned about dealing with electric vehicles
At least with ICE fires only 300 gals is needed to put them out.
With EV fires it takes 3000 gallons AND 24 hrs. It’s a hot torch
that can set everything on fire around it for a very long time.
Remember the lithium battery fires that sunk a ship carrying cars
across the Pond as the fire burned for many days & they couldn’t
put it out? You can’t even roast hot dogs or marshmallows cuz of
the very toxic fumes!
With inflation rising rapidly & lithium in high demand, how much will
the $10k battery cost in 10 yrs? $20k, 40k? With the lifetime of most
ICE cars ~250k miles, how much will that be in 20yrs?
What about the pollution from all the used batteries?
I have a “burning” question to ask you- when an EV catches fire, is it
still a zero emissions car? 😉
200,000 pounds of lithium batteries caught fire. Morris, IL USA in 2021.
https://www.ehs.com/2021/07/morris-lithium-battery-fire-highlights-emergency-planning-hazardous-chemical-management/
People in some areas are buying a coal fueled car when they buy a EV.
You skipped your protocol today?
Copied from a Norwegian website in March of last year (2021), but I don’t think the numbers have changed by that much since then …
The OP’s call for “No subsidies !” remains valid in 2022, and for the foreseeable future.
Seems like the e-golf is getting a free pass. It’s heavier than the ICE Golf but pays no weight tax and what’s with not paying any VAT?
Considering how vulnerable the grid is in Europe, a wise
person may want to get an EV extender- while the supply
lasts- with the cost split between several people which would
give them another solution to cloudy, rainy, foggy days when
the wind isn’t blowing either or if they ration electricity/energy.
They’d be prepared for it, as the West has gotten used to
everything being always available.
Battery powered vehicles have spontaneously combusted in the recent past actually, just ask the German bus station that couldn’t put out a battery powered bus fire that spread to others and lasted 3 days. If I remember correctly, this prompted legislation to disallow the parking of battery powered vehicles in undergrounds. I know of no gasoline or diesel vehicle that shares such a risk or has such a history. As for affordability… from an online site : “With the price increases, the cheapest listed vehicle for sale by Tesla is now the Model 3 with rear-wheel-drive. The vehicle’s sale price starts at $46,990 before additional features”. That’s considered an entry vehicle? The cheapest EV was the Nissan Leaf at $27 400, 149mi range. Highest range – Volkswagen ID.4 at 289miles at a “cheap” price of $41 995. And when we think of economy, or affordable manufacturers, Kia usually produces a reasonably priced vehicle, just not for EV. The EV6 rolls in at $40 900, with a top range of 232mi. You must have a time machine, or been revived from a decades old coma because you’re not in 2022. For gasoline cars available now, The Chevy Spark, Mitsubishi Mirage, Hyundai Accent, Nissan Versa Note, all have price tags half or even a third of the EVs. I invite you to do a quick online search, review or dealer visit. Add to this the fact they will provide you with three or four or more times the driving range, and the ease and speed of fueling, you aren’t just from another time, but another planet. For the average person, a full on EV, (as opposed to hybrids – which a coworker found to be worthless once the batteries hit end of life – throw away money that gets him net zero $ ahead), purchase is motivated by something other than facts and economics as related to travel. My neighbors, one a teacher, the other working in a law office, boasted of their Model 3 Tesla purchase of last year. They joined online groups and gushed as others joined, all feel good emotions of “doing the right thing for the planet”. Funny, I’ve yet to actually hear the planet thank anyone, but I digress. They no longer have an EV which, in my neighbors words, “We paid more for than I thought I would pay for a car, and I won’t do it again!” Needless to say, they now drive two gas powered vehicles. EV gone. You can debate, point-counter-point, blah blah on, and obfuscate all you want, but eventually, the hard wall of reality is what the idyllic slam into when they’re daydreaming about unicorns. NON-FACTUAL statements that are easily demonstrated to be so, like yours, should be.
As a result of that German bus station fire, I am just waiting to see which countries do the sensible thing and ban all EVs from underground car parks, as well as multi-storey ones, etc. Plus all buildings housing more than one occupant, etc. Seems only sensible to me, but would be an admission of total failure of EVs for many politicians. Are EVs permitted in the Channel Tunnel? Just asking for a friend!
I wonder how much it will cost to create a vehicle that meets the current level of utility of my truck? I drive mid-sized truck. It provides two-wheel drive, four-wheel drive, and four-wheel drive low. It can tow reasonably for my needs. It has air conditioning for summer heat, heating for winter cold, remote start for convenience.
I’ve yet to see an EV– even upcoming ones– that cause me to say, “say, an EV truck looks like a good or better replacement for my current truck!” ICE is still the superior product on the whole. Any nation seeking to reduce its reliance on ICE right now is shooting its citizens and its economy to death.
Some people like you and me actually demand performance of products to meet their needs. They evaluate products objectively weighing pros and cons.
The fundamental problem of EVs is the weight of the battery, which results from the chemical and physical challenges of electrical energy storage. Incremental improvements will make for better batteries but it’s unlikely that they get to where they need to be to compete on cost for relative performance.
I looked up the first 2 cars from Duane’s link:
Nissan Versa (ice) starting $15,180, as shown $18590
Nissan Leaf (EV) starting $27,400, as shown $37,400
MINI Cooper Hardtop 2 Door (ice) $22,900-$32,900
MINI Cooper Hardtop 2 Door Electric (EV) $29,900-$30,750
Like the…
2022 Mazda MX-30 for $33,000 and a 100 mile range and 10+hour recharge time at 120v house current
2022 Mini Cooper SE for $29,900 and a 114 mile range and 11+ hour recharging time at 120v house current
2022 Nissan Leaf for $27,400 and a 149 mile range and 15 hour recharge time at 120v house current
While the 2022 Toyota Corolla is $20,000 and gets 30-38mpg and a range of 435 miles with a 6 minute refill time
“Oh, and by the way, did you never notice that your gas or diesel powered vehicle also has a battery in it?”
If you want to support the safety of EVs, don’t be flippant and say something completely stupid to score some imagined points. The lead acid batteries in internal combustion cars contain a minuscule quantity of energy compared to the lithium containing batteries in EVs and the contents of lead acid batteries do not fiercely burn seemingly spontaneously or in accidents.
Exactly what EV are you currently driving?
FACT: A new Corolla is about $22,000.
https://www.edmunds.com/inventory/srp.html?price=17000-24000&inventorytype=new&wz=27
Watch a lot of movies, do you?
ICE cars don’t spontaneously combust in your garage.
more fantasy and selective reality from Duane
outside of motorsport and TV how often have you seen a burning car? then there is Duane
doesnt seem to think spontaneous combustion of a parked car is a biggie
doesnt seem to understand the difference between a lead acid starting battery and sitting on a ton of Lion cells.
In Paris there are Teslas but pretty much all are the 3, the only one bellow 40000 €, the only one eligible to the bonus!
UK does not have the electrical infrastructure to support that load.
Current wish list energy planning is doomed to abject failure.
Actually, the great majority of recharging of EVs takes place overnight wherever the vehicle is garaged. In all electric grids worldwide, power demand is at its least during the overnight hours – power always peaks during the day time when people are awake and working, shopping, recreating, etc. and businesses are open for business. That’s why the utilities encourage customers to use less power during the day and more during the night.
So no, the grid will not be overwhelmed at all with EVs.
So in other words, EV use will cause electrical demands to be much more levelized throughout the 24 hour day than they are today. That is inherently a very good thing. Power plants and electrical grids function much more efficiently and reliably when they are operated continuously at near their capacity, with as little daily cyclical change as can be achieved.
And those natural gas or wood fired plants that produce the electricity don’t expel CO2, do they?
Yeeeeeessss, right.
But if the electric is coming from solar panels, that become a con, not a pro.
Likewise and easily 80% of the time, the wind drops at night-time also
Duane, you are correct in that when grid suppliers are producing near their capacity, they operating most efficiently. The problem is that consumers don’t operate as low-energy during the day and high energy at night (to recharge their cars). They operate on an as-needed basis. When they need fuel, they find the nearest, cheapest station and fill up. With EVs the equivalent to a fuel pump station is a fast-charge station. And there aren’t many of them around compared to fuel pumps and home outlets (long charging, which is the equivalent of using a dropper to put gasoline in your car one drop at a time). At present, in order to convert to a nation completely to EVs, it would require rationing fast-charge stations– which is already happening in effect because there are so few and lengthy lines form at them at all times of the day.
So, moving consumers from the (superior) demand-driven, supply-fulfilled market in place right now to an inferior demand-drive, supply-cannot-be-provided market will have a deleterious effect on the entire economy. This is not the direction any nation should move.
“when they are operated continuously at near their capacity”
So EV won’t be charged using wind and solar, because neither of them fit that description.
That means that EV’s won’t reduce CO2 emissions.
You can’t live in your little fantasy land all your life, you know !
And how many people have street parking as their only choice.
EV charging overnight.. its a nightmare, not a fluffy little dream.
That is right.
Most of everyone who lives in a downtown has no way to charge an EV. Same for almost everyone who lives in an apartment.
Duane has obviously not done even a simple math exercise before commenting.
The question is not whether or not a single EV right now will overload the power grid…it is what happens when half or more of all cars are EVs, and everyone plugs it in when they get home, and the whole country is running on intermittents which produce very little power at night and are in any case not able to throttle up or down to match loads.
When the grid is mostly wind and demand exceeds supply, the power must be purchased on open spot markets, most commonly from some other nearby state or country, which is well known to be the very most expensive power there is in the whole world.
If there is a situation where the demand exceeds the load carrying capacity of the transmission lines bringing in this power, the result will be a rolling blackout, a brownout, or grid collapse.
Agreed.
On top of their delusional charging assumptions, they’ve pushed vehicles into production that fail to provide transportation/usage to one person each day.
Instead of a spouse returning home from a long commute and then using the family car for evening, night and weekends, the car must be charged for between 10-15 hours as documented by Bryan A.
Meaning that every family needing a vehicle for various errands, lessons, classes, assemblies, meetings, second job, etc. will need their own vehicle.
The numbers of vehicles on our roads will increase substantially.
“So in other words, EV use will cause electrical demands to be much more levelized throughout the 24 hour day than they are today.”
Nice try, but EV use won’t change the demand for OTHER uses of electricity or when that electricity is needed. It will just increase the total demand overall. And since the sun doesn’t shine and the wind doesn’t blow 24/7, widespread EV adoption will exacerbate the problems the UK is already having with its grid.
Duane’s notion of the electrical grid is similarly bizarre.
Instead, it assumes that EVs charging off schedule are perfectly all right. That things balance out…
Ignoring that vehicles will be charging day and night, depending on who is using them. The neighborhood grid, i.e. wires strung overhead or buried, are not sized for that levels of continuous voltage/amperage.
Nor are renewables capable of providing high quality consistent high quality electricity necessary for fast charging E-vehicles. That electricity must come from consistent generating facilities.
EV buses and other high person capacity commute vehicles must also increase their numbers substantially. Large batteries will reduce vehicle capacity; they will drain their batteries faster.
Since fast charging seriously cuts the life of the battery, commuter vehicles will be charging nonstop. As soon as one vehicle is returned to transporting people, another vehicle will be plugged in for charging.
All of those lithium ion batteries in urban centers are disasters waiting to happen..
The UK has c 300,000 Low Voltage (LV) substations and around 1m feeders with about 450,000kms of buried cables. It is estimated that about 80% of this LV network is built for ‘lighting plus’ (c.1.2kW) and is not suitable for 7kW EVs and 9kW heat pumps.
A few years back the cost of upgrading this network was put at £60 billion and would involve digging up most of the non motorway roads in the country.
https://v2g.co.uk/2021/05/electric-vehicles-as-energy-smart-appliances
Solar works very well during the night
Of course it does, and according to a blogger a couple of years ago in a Sydney Australia newspaper on line blog who posted that she would recharge her EV, when she gets one, overnight from solar electricity.
EVs require more power than houses which means the nightime slack cannot handle 100% EVs.
Anybody who could actually count would realise that the UK grid cannot charge more than about 10% of the private cars at any time without the grid going down .
Although actually , their ” Smart Meters ” [ which are compulsory for a car charger ],
would just shut down the ones who are charging to try to keep the grid going .So most of them will not get charged up .
It would need a massive increase in generation capacity for the country to be able to run anywhere near the amount of EVs the Green Loonies want the country to take up .
There are no charging stations, no parking for all the charging stations, no batteries to store all the electricity needed. That is the infrastructure he is talking about. There isn’t even the necessary materials available to construct everything, unless the UK uses everything the world produces. It is impossible to do in the time frame they are pushing.
Isn’t that a comforting thought! The Greens will eventually be forced to face facts!
Your’re lying AGAIN, DuhWayne. The average household electricity usage in the US is 10.7 kW-hrs per day. That’s only enough electricity for the average EV to travel about 30 real-world miles. Since the average amount of driving in the US is 39 miles (all driving), should everyone switch to EVs it would more than double residential electricity usage, doubling the amount of electricity needing to be generated. You cannot double usage without seeing an increase in peak power demand.
In addition, less than half the people in the US own a single-family home. Even fewer own a place to charge an EV (think of all the people who park on the street). There would be a mad scramble to find public chargers – many would need to charge after work during the peak electricity usage time thus further increasing peak demand.
It never ceases to amaze me that the people who shout the loudest are often the least knowledgeable.
The supply grids themselves will also need massive upgrades in most places.
This will be a truly expensive exercise.. for absolutely no gain of any sort.
Now, now, b nice. The little birdies will have a lot more power lines to perch on if we have to double or treble the amount of transmission lines. That’s a plus.
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Too bad the increase in bird choppers needed to run power through all those new lines will leave far fewer birdies to perch on those lines. That’s a minus.
–
It’s always something…
Yep. A cost of £60 billion has been put on upgrading the UK network but this was a few years ago and it will inevitably be greater now. It would also involve digging up most of the non motorway roads in the country!
That is the situation at the moment. That will be turned on its head if everyone owns an EV.
Most streets of London are now littered with parked cars (not garaged). Long extension cords will present electrical and physical safety hazards to every road user. Just an unintended consequence?
Only a drongo who has no idea of the infrastructural engineering involved would make such a comment. Or maybe just another leftist-idealist with a “super-simplified” view and vision of the world.
I predict a sharp increase in copper thievery under those circumstances, Russell.
Not only will your EV not get charged, but you’ll be buying a replacement cable every few days.
The good news is that replacement cable prices should go down as all the cables will be made from recycled copper. You know… the copper that was charging your car last week?
The peak will change to peak charging time as EVs are forced into every garage and mandated to replace ICE vehicles. The new Peak Time will be at night when No Solar is available. So … YES … forced EV acceptance WILL alter Peak Usage Time and over tax existing electric infrastructure. Every 50 AMP charger (1 per EV) places an additional 12kVA of load on your residential service. 1 EV charger added to your home service will more than double your average daily usage (unless you use a lot anyway) and if you have 2 cars, your daily usage will triple. The average 25 KVA OH Transformer is good for about 35kVA of load before it’s overtaxed and needs to be upsized. With every car being EV, and people having 2 cars charging overnight you will need 100 KVA Transformers on every other pole feeding no more than 4 houses each. Yes, infrastructure will be overtaxed and need upsizing.
“In all electric grids worldwide, power demand is at its least during the overnight hours ” – except in winter, when people use electricity for heat. This will be even worse if fossil fuels get limited by the government, moving more people to use grid power to stay warm.
The power is coming from where? Not that hundred acre solar farm, that’s for sure. Good chance not from those windmills down the road, either (that might be a good thing, you’ll actually get a decent night’s sleep!)
How many houses in the UK actually have garages?
Absolutely, you are correct. 50% of the existing cars on the DVLA register would be 16M vehicles. These would be connected to the UK grid for recharging mostly between 18.00 and 07.00 hrs. Obviously, not every vehicle will need a full recharge but for a period 16M cars requiring 7kw of power for, say 2 hours overnight, would require an additional 112 GW of generating capacity and a massive increase in the national grid network to deliver this additional power load to users homes. As the existing installed electricity generation capacity in the UK is currently around 65 GW, how are these 16M electric cars going to be recharged. It would take many years to upgrade the UK’s electricity supply system to meet the demand of 16M EVs. What I can’t understand is why electrical engineers within the UK are not making public statements that the ambitions for EVs by 2028 are complete ‘pie in the sky’.
“What I can’t understand is why electrical engineers within the UK are not making public statements that the ambitions for EVs by 2028 are complete ‘pie in the sky’.”
Good question.
Robert Watt: “What I can’t understand is why electrical engineers within the UK are not making public statements that the ambitions for EVs by 2028 are complete ‘pie in the sky’.”
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Because those electrical engineers plan on an early retirement from all the extra money they will make at night as copper thieves.
😉
More wishful thinking at the UK. Fortunately, Canada has the answer … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHEbfHjZPQ
Every Yank needs to see that yesterday. Brandon has some ‘splainin’ to do!
I want to see the electric farm tractors and combines we’re going to be using to grow and harvest food. I don’t think the average farmer has the money to purchase these items, nor the time to wait the multiple times a day to recharge the suckers while trying to beat the rain or snow. Seems like if you significantly reduce the gas customer base, the decreased production will lead to increased overhead costs and increased final costs of goods. That means your food is going to cost more, along with everything else.
Since farmers work very long days during busy times- planting & harvesting-
there’s little time left to recharge batteries. Now that they don’t need
drivers anymore & can run equipment 24/7, that leaves 0 time for charging.
Simples, turn your fields into solar farm, get your grain from Ukraine.
(image by courtesy of the UK’s Minister for Defence Procurement)
“get your grain from Ukraine”- you’re a poet & didn’t know it! 😉
If they don’t, they’ll need very long & thick extension cords
500hp-1000hp = ~500kw-~1MW power (allowing for
transmission losses) If only Tesla had been right
about transmitting electricity through the air!
Yeah. Your average farm field is so close to major power lines.
This is such a sad sight 😔
Especially when you realize all those panels are probably enough for a single large farm, but they still need a huge number of very expensive batteries or they will have zero power for more than half of the hours in a year.
The only upside is that demand for gasoline will drop and so will it’s price for those of us who were not suckered into the big climate lie.
I don’t think so – the price will only go up…
Strictly: the tax on the fossil fuel will go up
Actually it may not. The oil will be refined into diesel they’ll use
for all the towed chargers needed to maintain normal range.
I think we’ve seen, with the US oil industry, how the UK government will react to farmers unable to grow or harvest enough food – “they’re just sitting on thousands of unused acres of land, they need to increase production, pronto!”
A highly educated Cambodian even gave us the model for doing just that.
People named “Duane,” “Griff,” “Nick,” “Bob,” etc. are going to be very surprised when they are among the first to be offered the not to be turned down opportunity for fresh air, sunshine, and lots of exercise.
Those tractors are going to look awfully funny hauling around 5 to 10 tons of battery while working the fields. Of course the government could provide each farmer with two or three battery banks for each tractor so he can change ’em out at lunch and dinner time while charging the others.
Wouldn’t the extra weight give them more traction in mud and soil?
It will certainly make them sink faster.
When I had my woods logged, the rain got the heavy equipment stuck for weeks. It was good for the morels though.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic.
I knew that. I was just letting you know that I know where to find morels. You find any yet?
Thanks. Sorry.
No luck so far on the morels. We have some rain coming in, then I’ll look again after that.
Depends on what you’re doing, soil type & how wet it is as
too much rain can cause problems, as Brad-DXT said.
The batteries could give it too much weight to start with which
you can’t get rid of. The weight also has to be distributed
properly front-to-back. So design may also be critical.
I’d hate to have a battery catch fire on a combine as normal
combine fires can require fire departments to extinguish. With a lot
of ripe grain that can burn, that could get quite spendy in a hurry!
More than likely, the $600k combine will be totaled with the lithium
blow torch. The good news is tractors are cheaper.
500 hp = ~400kw => ~360A @ur momisugly 110V or ~90A @ur momisugly 440V.
Halve it for 250hp, double that for 1000hp!
0000 Cu wire (0.46″)- 195A @ur momisugly 140F, 260A @ur momisugly 190F
I wouldn’t want all of that heat nearby. What could go wrong!
The world will be watching the UK Great Green Experiment….even though it is all for nothing….CO2 is not a problem but a benefit. Are those outside charging ports on those vehicles waterproof?
And laughing at our folly
Only if they can avoid the folly themselves. 😮
The charging ports are waterproof – that’s one of the few areas on the EV’s that was developed for other uses and that will actually work!
We are being pushed by our quasi communist government to buy EVs in New Zealand.
A large tax has just been imposed on utility vehicles to subsidize EVs .
This government wants to electrify our transport system including heavy trucks .
It takes a very large battery to drive a fully loaded 60 tonne truck and trailer and the batteries have to be changed with using a crane every 200 kilometers .
This government does not have a clue as our elecrticity generation would have to double if all transport was electrified .
Our government has recently reduced the road tax that is added to all petrol sales as the rapid price increases was severely impacting every one .
Our government stopped oil and gas exploration off our shores so that our large Huntly power station was forced to import coal from Indonesia to keep the lights on in New Zealand instead of using gas from offshore Taranaki .
With their blind rush to electrify our transport system Huntly will burn millions of dollars worth of imported coal even though there are vast reserves of coal near by .
Correct, thereby proving how technically-ignorant Cindy and her communist mates are! It would be great if they could be persuaded to read these comments, but they are far too busy with important matters such as bribing the MSM and encouraging the use of a near-dead language!
“Are those outside charging ports on those vehicles waterproof?”
Pretty silly question.
He who makes the rules gets rich really fast.
Where will all the electricity for these toys come from? Oh, yea, coal, gas, hydro and nuclear.
Well, even if you could generate the power, unless the entire UK local distribution network is upgraded for increased demand then good luck geeting it to the thousands of domestic charging points needed.. .
Same here in States. Greentards got no clue and you cannot explain it to them, they simply want things to magically happen and get angry when it doesn’t.
Yep…the local distribution grid is still based on historical demand.
Predating even all the electric gadgets we have currently.
Add in UK Gov want us all to switch to electric for heating and cooking instead of gas, and the local transformers will be glowing cherry red 🙂
Well, there was that street in an Australian city where about a third of the householders bought electric. Simultaneous charging of more than three cars blew the street’s power – for everybody!
Where was that? We need to know, because a good practical experiment is all it should need to convince the few sensible technically-knowledgeable politicians.
Wait, what?!? You’re saying there actually is a technically knowledgeable politician?
Who knew?
Do you mean like this?
Just like that!
My BoE calculation, check it, went like this:
30 million UK cars
As per what insurance companies say, each does 10,000 miles per year
No matter what EV makers and Gov’t say, in UK conditions of weather, traffic stop/starts, hills, roundabouts, corners etc etc, those cars will go for 2 miles on one kWh of electricity
Lets say 10,000 hours in a year means they are all moving at one mile per hour. Thus burning 500Watts as they go
Straight up that’s a continuous 15GW demand = about a third of current UK peak demand and half of average ordinary demand
Obviously double that if they only all charge up at night – while the sun ain’t shining and the wind has dropped. sigh
You assumed 100% charging/storage/conversion efficiency.
I doubt that you would get better than 70%, if that. so not 15GW, more like 20GW
It’s pretty obvious that the politicos trying to run the country do not have enough engineering knowledge to develop a program that might have a chance of working.
The proposed limits will simply bankrupt average citizens. The wealthy could afford to add a couple extra vehicles and continue to have transportation at hand. The less wealthy would struggle to get a vehicle charged overnight and not make it to work the next day.
I can almost guarantee that average workers who can’t afford long commutes and extensive overnight charging will be jobless in less that a year. This continuing, senseless jumbling of the power systems will simply crash them.
Let’s cheer on the clueless politicos and get the trauma over.
Engineering dyslexia is rampant in the political class. They rely on emotional appeal to get re-elected and not on solving problems.
Eric, here’s another. 🍸
Aviation, shipping, forestry and agriculture are not susceptible to Net Zero which will fail. Everyone (who can count above say ten) says so.
I bet Griffo will still claim that it’s a zero emissions car!
Who are you going to believe, your own two eyes or Griffypoo?
They’re off with the fairies as it can’t happen-
Tesla Shocks German Consumers With A €7,000 Price Hike For Base Model 3 | Carscoops
Tesla and the premiums will eventually satisfy the wealthy car buyer market and then the EV sales will flatline at the same time as their price soars. In the meantime Toyota et al will make a killing with hybrids for the bulk of the urban market and it will become obvious to future Govts that ICE bans will see them thrown out on their ear.
Even in Oz with fuel prices spiking over Ukraine there was two party support for quickly halving the fuel excise with an election in the offing. Australian Labor have gone real quiet on changing the climate now.
I also wonder if Griffo is still waiting for the Easter Unicorn’s gift of
the Pot o’ Gold it found at the end of the rainbow?
h/t Oldseadog
Worth noting that the Mercedes-Benz B class automatic diesel at the end of the rainbow in the picture is 15 years old, does 55 miles to the GB gallon, uses no oil between services, has 148,000 miles on the clock, has the original battery and exhaust pipe and came with a 30 year free collection guarantee if it breaks down. I don’t plan on changing it any time soon.
When in Frankfurt, I got to ride in a Mercedes taxi. The sound of the
door closing was a lot better than any car us Yanks ever built.
One guy in the squadron drove a Mercedes so he’d
always pick up parts when he went to Europe.
BTW, I was always impressed that the color of the car matched
that of its hubcaps! 😉 😉 😉
Did you ever get a call from the Babylon Bee? You seem to have the knack of making life become reality.
I was absolutely stunned when I saw your picture.
ROTFLMAOHATM!!! 🙂
Easter Unicorn? Pot o’ gold? Just how many different fantastical memes are you trying to squeeze in there?
Unfortunately with Griffo, I probably missed a few like Santa Claus,
the Tooth Fairy, The Green Nude Eel, Whirled Peas, etc. Griffo’s list
is probably endless! 😉 😉 😉
I’m working on a PhD in memeology, but since I’m not a
biologist I can’t tell you what a woman is! 😉
Iain Dale wrote an article in the Daily Mail about a horrific 11 hour journey in his EV which should have taken a couple or three hours. Boris is, unfortunately, pushing ahead with this EV nonsense long before the required technology is available or indeed the Green energy to power them. Wait twenty years and then take another look at EVs, but for now put ‘Rip van Winkle’ to bed.
IAIN DALE: My 11-hour journey from hell proves Britain is hopelessly unprepared for electric cars | Daily Mail Online
Main stream media is mentioning more pitfalls of EVs now. It would have been unheard of a12 months ago.
Unfortunately, Boris is no longer ruled by his brain – if he ever was. Having a Greenie in his bed may be the biggest problem the UK has to overcome.
Iain Dale could have headlined his article –
“MUGGED BY REALITY”
This UK subject won’t be driving an EV. I’ve nothing against them but I prefer a good old-fashioned car with a proper engine, and besides, I have nowhere to charge an EV, even if I could afford one.
It’s pie in the sky.The electricity capacity doesn’t exist, and can’t be produced in that timescale.Delusion of the highest order.
Uk guv mint gone full GreatThingBerg
“Why arent you doing something about this?”
“We will makes some virtue signalling laws, and charge you double. Now P*** off and STFU”.
Who will profit from this in currency?
—How To Commit National Suicide—
Unfortunately Brandon & B*ttpl*g are heading into the same concrete wall.
Better build a lot of nukes really quickly.
Obviously this is infantile fantasy thinking. There is nothing zero emission about EV’s when one takes into account all the mining, manufacturing, rare earth metals, steel, plastics and of course, the mainly fossil fuel source of the electricity. Then there is the unaccounted costs in dollars and carbon emissions in whatever process are to be developed to decommission the batteries and cars once no longer functional.
From the pictures I’ve seen, the EVs decommission themselves… while fire departments watch.
So that’s one less problem to worry about.
Well, last I heard the UK is a representative democracy with a Parliament that is accountable to the voters, that enacts the laws in accordance with a Constitution, so ministers are always proposing this or that, but until it’s the law, it’s not the law. We’ll see whether this ever becomes law or not.
It’s like the old saying in the US – “The President proposes, but Congress disposes”.
My understanding is that net zero by 2050 is the law, it went through Parliamernt pretty much on the nod.
Who said “You get the Parliament you deserve.” ?
I don’t know, but Will Rogers said “We have the best Congress than money can buy.”
Will also said, Congress doesn’t do much, but that’s what we want them to do.
I don’t remember that wording, but he did say “Thank goodness we don’t get all the government we pay for,” which is the same idea.
If people think EVs are expensive now, wait until that is the only type of vehicle you can buy.
You know, that whole supply and demand thing.
KGB agents take note of the vulnerabilities there and add them to the briefing file.
The FSB, do try to keep up!
KGB in heart and spirit
Put a stop to the mandates. Take the politicians who propose these things and give them such a working over that they never try it again.
But How??
We all, around here, know how damaging EVs, (and BEVs, ZEVs) really are. USE It.
We know that Cobalt, needed for EVs is produced in “artisanal” mines in Africa, often by children, often under conditions resembling slavery.
Use It.
Politicians promoting EVs are cheering on slavery in Africa. They are all for child slavery. The children are black. Therefor, the politician is a RACIST Slaver. Do not let up.
We know that the Rare Earth elements needed for the motors are produced in China under appalling environmental conditions.
Use It.
Politicians promoting EVs are cheering on environmental destruction in China. They are all for some of the most polluting mining practices on the planet. Therefor, the politician is an Environmental Criminal. Keep at it.
We know that EV batteries do not recycle. At the end of the line, there is no choice but to dump old batteries in landfills.
Use It.
Politicians promoting EVs are cheering on environmental destruction in our own country. EV batteries have toxic compounds which can seep into groundwater aquifers. These politicians are promoting the poisoning of our own children.
Politicians carefully craft and protect their public image. They live or die on public perception.
Give them a whole new public image.
Done right, they will never know what hit them.
How many trees in North American clearcut forests does it take to power a charging lot of 10 EVs and the queue backed up there? I bet Drax Group knows alongside the subsidy meter.