The new Pause lengthens: now 7 years 6 months

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

The new Pause has lengthened by another month. On the UAH satellite monthly global mean lower-troposphere temperature dataset, seven and a half years have passed since there was any trend in global warming at all. As always, if anyone has seen this surely not uninteresting fact mentioned in the Marxstream news media, let us know in comments. One of the best-kept secrets in what passes for “journalism” these days is that global temperature has not been rising steadily (or, since October 2014, at all). It has been rising in occasional spurts in response to natural events such as the great Pacific shift of 1976 and the subsequent strong el Niño events, rather than at the somewhat steadier rate that one might expect if our continuing – and continuous – sins of emission were the primary culprit.

To forestall the usual whingeing about “cherry-picking” from the climate-fanatical trolls, here is the entire HadCRUT4 record of monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies for the 172 years 1850-2021. The trend is a not particularly catastrophic half a degree per century equivalent. Oo-er! Stap me vitals!

The HadCRUT4 dataset, now at last updated to the end of 2021, shows no global warming for almost eight years:

The significance of these long Pauses should not be underestimated. IPCC (1990, p. xxiv) confidently predicted 1.8 K global mean anthropogenic warming from 1850-2030. Of this, 0.5 K (HadCRUT5: Morice et al. 2021) had occurred by 1990, so that the projection was equivalent to 1.3 K over the four decades 1991-2030, or 0.34 K decade–1. However, observed warming from January 1991 to December 2021 as the mean of the monthly UAH lower-troposphere and HadCRUT4 surface monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies, was 0.5 K, or 0.18 K decade–1. Even if all warming since 1990 was anthropogenic (which it was not), IPCC’s finger-in-the-air prediction has proven to be almost twice outturn.

Meanwhile, soi-disant “leaders” on both sides of the Atlantic, having half-wittedly committed themselves to the Party Line on climate so sedulously peddled for so long by the Desinformatsiya directorate of the KGB (now FSB) and by the many Chinese agents of influence (such as the “Confucius Institutes” at many Western universities), dare not lose face. They cannot bring themselves to admit that they have been wrong, that they have been fooled, and that they have needlessly and expensively ended the free market in energy supply. They cannot brin themselves to change their catastrophic and unaffordable energy policies, even in the face of the fact that it was their eagerness to suppress competition from coal-fired power-stations in the name of Saving The Planet that was the chief source of funding for Vlad the Invader’s special military massacre in Ukraine.

On this side of the pond, Boris Johnson – than whom no previous prime minister has ever known less about science and mathematics – is about to publish an “energy strategy” that is widely expected to remove the now-formidable zoning constraints that have, for a few blissful years, prevented the installation of almost all new onshore unreliables.

I am now in Scotland on a walking holiday, but it is a lot less of a holiday than once it was. For every hillside is infested with whomping windmills – 14th-century technology to address a 21st-century non-problem. Birds, bees and bats by the billion are being blended or batted out of the sky. Yet few politicians dare to challenge the climate-Communist Party Line for fear of being unpersoned by savage, organized and persistent reputational assaults.

For instance, in a further attempt to damage my own reputation (for our research is more than somewhat challenging to the Party Line, and there are increasing signs of panic in the ranks of the ungodly), some wretched climate fanatic has asked the overpaid, under-responsible numbskulls at the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments, the senior bureaucrat at the House of Lords, to order me to stop using my well-kent logo, the portcullis (a generic heraldic charge) surmounted by the coronet vicecomital, a hat to which I and just 28 other Viscounts are entitled. I ran up this design on my architectural drawing program, I have been using it for well over a decade, and I shall continue to use it:

The House of Lords uses a badly-drawn, puke-red, 2-dimensional representation of the portcullis, with chains droopily pendent rather than triumphantly volant, and surmounted not by my coronet vicecomital, distinguished by the nine visible pearls, but by the Crown Royal. As the cuisses-de-cuir will discover to their dismay when they consult Garter King of Arms before shooting their mouths off again in their eagerness to advance climate Communism, a coronet vicecomital and a Crown Royal are clean different things. I have never used the latter, for I am not really royal. I am merely the Queen’s seventh cousin twice removed (“Kindly remove him a third time”).

The dusty dolts will also discover from Garter (who will, no doubt, much enjoy this nonsense, just as I do) that no one else has registered my device and that, therefore, I am fully entitled to use it. How lucky you are, across the pond, that your wise Constitution altogether prohibits titles of nobility. That is one more thing the bureaucrats in your country can’t try to mess up and use against us as they try to do here.

The gnomes of Westminster are also proposing to consult the Lord Chamberpot, whose original job, before Thos. Crapper Esq. came along, was to empty the night soil from the Royal porcelain each morning. For they do not like me to call myself a member of the House of Lords (which I am, for the letters patent granted by Her Majesty to my late beloved grandfather have not been withdrawn or repealed by the special Act of Parliament that would be necessary). Indeed, I was in the House only the other day, giving a briefing to a group of my peers, one of whom even voted for me in a by-election for a vacant hereditary seat.

By vice of the House of Lords Act 1999, passed by a Communist administration, nearly all hereditary peers have no seat or vote. But we remain members of the House until hundreds of individual special Acts are passed, to annul our letters patent. And that won’t happen anytime soon.

It is time to start building coal-fired power stations again. That would cut electricity bills by five-sixths. It is also time to reject electric buggies. Otherwise we shall make exactly the same mistake we made in shutting down the coal-fired power stations that generated electricity at less than half the unit cost of Siberian gas. As things now stand, we shall ban production of all internal-combustion engines and replace them with electric buggies very nearly all of which, throughout the world, will utterly depend upon lithium carbonate whose production is owned or controlled by Communist China. Enjoy your personal transport while it lasts. Even if you can afford to run the present one, you won’t be able to afford a new one.

This strategic double-whammy – replacing our own coal with Kremlin gas and our own petroleum with Peking lithium carbonate – is a self-inflicted and, if not reversed, potentially fatal wound to the economies as well as to the freedoms of the West.

It will make no difference to global temperature. Even if all the nations bound by the Paris discords actually achieved net-zero emissions by 2050, as Mr Johnson fatuously proposes, the global warming abated would be little more than a twentieth of a degree, for most countries are not bound by it. The cost to the free world – and the profit to Communism – would be in the quadrillions. Is that really what we want to achieve?

Well, no, we don’t. The global warming scam was based on an elementary mistake. Consider the position in 1850. Climatologists forgot the Sun was shining. They took the whole 24 K feedback response up to that year and attributed all of it to the 8 K direct warming by preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases. Therefore, they imagined that because the 32 K sum of these two values was four times the 8 K reference sensitivity to the preindustrial gases the 1 K direct warming by doubled CO2 today would become, at midrange, about 4 K (CMIP6: Zelinka et al. 2020).

They had forgotten the feedback response to the 255 K emission temperature that would obtain at the surface if, at the outset, there were no greenhouse gases in the air at all. They had misallocated it to, and miscounted it as part of, the actually tiny feedback response to the 8 K direct warming by the preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases. At any given moment – such as 1850 – any feedback processes then subsisting must perforce respond equally to each degree of the entire (255 + 8) K reference temperature and hence proportionately to each component therein.

For 1850, the system-gain factor, by which one multiplies a direct warming (or reference sensitivity) to allow for feedback response and derive final warming (or equilibrium sensitivity) is not, as Hansen (1984), Schlesinger (1988) or Lacis (2010, 2013) absurdly imagined, 32 / 8 = 4. Instead, it is (255 + 32) / (255 + 8) < 1.1. Their error is as elementary as that.

The feedback-loop schematic below represents not only a linear feedback system (such as climatology imagines the climate to be, for CMIP6 models’ midrange prediction implies a midrange system-gain factor today identical to, or even somewhat less than, that of 1850). It also serves to represent a potentially non-linear system at a particular moment of interest, here 1850. Note that the simplified feedback formulism shown in the diagram gives outputs identical to the more complex formulism in the textbooks, if based on identical inputs. But the simpler formulism is a lot easier to understand than the original formulism developed by Black (1934) and codified by Bode (1945).

The 255 K emission temperature erroneously neglected by climatology in its derivation of feedback response and hence of equilibrium doubled-CO2 sensitivity (ECS) is shown in gold. Dark blue values are common to the erroneous and corrected methods. Erroneous values consequent upon forgetting that the Sun is shining and thus neglecting the feedback response to the 255 K emission temperature are italicized in red. Corrected values, in green, are below the italicized erroneous values.

Since reference doubled-CO2 sensitivity (RCS) is about 1 K, ECS is approximately equal to the system-gain factor. For 1850 – and for today, if, as is very likely, climatology is at least right in taking the system-gain factor as invariant in the industrial era – the 4 K predicted midrange ECS in the CMIP6 models is about 4 times the corrected 1.1 K ECS.

If the system-gain factor were to be just 1% greater today than it was in 1850, then ECS would exceed the value implicit in the data for the climate in 1850 by 250%, because that 1% change must be applied not only to reference sensitivities but also to emission temperature itself. Yet global warming is not even occurring at the rate originally predicted on the basis of climatology’s error. It is occurring at little more than half that rate – and that is before making any allowance for the fact that not all warming in recent decades was anthropogenic.

Accordingly, the absurdly elevated feedback fractions imagined by climatology based on diagnoses from the outputs of the wretched climate models cannot possibly be correct. Which means, in turn, that the climate models themselves cannot possibly be correct. For if the feedbacks diagnosed from their crazy outputs were correct then ECS would be somewhere between 450 and 600 K, and it just isn’t.

Our paper explaining these inconvenient truths has been languishing at a leading journal, marked on its author tracking system as “With Editor”, for well over a year. While I am in Scotland, I am hoping to consult a very senior police contact about the numerous fraudulent aspects of the climate scam in general, and about the misconduct of the journals in particular.

If a journal says it will usually give a response within x days but no response is forthcoming even after 5x days, and if that journal says it brings the latest science to its readers and generally represents itself as publishing properly-peer-reviewed science, and if its editor is sitting on our paper because he cannot refute its argument but is not willing to publish it because he has previously gone on record as saying that we skeptics have no credible arguments against the Party Line, then that is fraud by false representation. We have had enough of it. For it is – as the late Nils-Axel Mörner used to say, the largest fraud in human history.

The tens of thousands of gallant Ukrainians slaughtered by the brutal advance of clapped-out Communism would perhaps still be alive today if we had been able to prevent the climate fraud that has, in no small measure, paid for Vlad’s reconstruction and expansion of his armed forces. For that reason, I suspect we may well now get a fair hearing from the police and, in due course, from the intelligence services of the West.

For our own nations’ protection, as well as for that of the myriad past, present and potential future victims of Russian and Chinese Communism, the most murderous form of government the world has known, we can no longer tolerate this nonsense from which the Marxists so mightily profiteer. Our politicians are too thick and too frit to stop it, but the police, the intelligence services and eventually the courts can – and will.

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Carlo, Monte
April 3, 2022 6:11 am

Send in the clowns, they’re needed PDQ.

Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 3, 2022 6:35 am

Don’t worry. They’re here.

fretslider
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 6:56 am

“Don’t worry. They’re here…”

“Our mission is simple: shut down any climate debate, present pal-reviewed voodoo science and explain the techniques of slagging opponents off”

https://skepticalscience.com/

Indeed they are.

Richard Page
Reply to  fretslider
April 3, 2022 10:41 am

It’s definitely a Pavlovian response – the bell rings and up he pops!

Reply to  Richard Page
April 3, 2022 12:13 pm

Dripping saliva, ears perked and all.

Ron Long
Reply to  fretslider
April 3, 2022 11:08 am

I often read posts at WATTS to enhance my vocabulary. “Slagging”, in Britain not a good description of treatment of women, but less offensive is the “ing” part is added. I used to think the French-Canadian drillers were the best at swearing, then I met an OZZIE and changed my mind. Now I’m thing the Brits are in the competition. By the way, Lord Monckton, good of you to keep the pause going. Thanks.

MarkW
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 7:27 am

Yes, you are.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 10:18 am

Thank you for affirmatively responding to the roll call.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 3, 2022 12:14 pm

Making my entrance with my usual flair.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 12:40 pm

A bad stench is always noticeable.

Lrp
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 6:58 pm

It’s called lack of self awareness

Reply to  Lrp
April 3, 2022 7:17 pm

10 years ago:

“Psst – Bellman, we’re the International Communist Conspiracy, and we’ll handsomely reward you to disrupt all those dangerous Lord Monckton posts.”

“But won’t that take a lot of work, sweating over R, just to produce ugly graphs that disprove all his nonsense.”

“Nah, just paraphrase a couple of Sondheim lyrics. That should do the trick.”

paul courtney
Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 11:09 am

Mr. Bellman: Ridiculous! Everyone knows the International Communist Conspiracy considered Sondheim a Trotskyite! But the part where you agree to half-ass the “R” was believable.

Lrp
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 6:56 pm

You’re supposed to amuse and not bore us.

mwhite
April 3, 2022 6:38 am
Robert Wager
Reply to  mwhite
April 3, 2022 8:00 am

Likely but that too is a reason to tax, tax, tax. Pay no attention to the taxman behind the curtain.

fretslider
April 3, 2022 6:54 am

This post could, possibly, potentially, might, may, is likely to… cause a meltdown of 6 or 7 on the griff scale. (1 griff = 10 Wadhams)

“seven and a half years have passed since there was any trend in global warming at all. As always, if anyone has seen this surely not uninteresting fact mentioned in the Marxstream news media, let us know in comments.”

Has anyone seen the Easter Bunny?

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  fretslider
April 3, 2022 12:39 pm

No one has, yet. The date of his appearance each year is determined by a rather mysterious formula no one can ever remember, called the Computus Eastermius Bunnius equation, involving the sun, moon and stars, near as I can tell. It’s almost as difficult as figuring out what factors are driving the climate.

Gerry, England
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
April 4, 2022 4:19 am

It could be that he is the idiot for lots of villages and is therefore a very busy man. He also needs time to read The Guardian to keep his ignorance up to date.

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 7:06 am

Sorry, but this is not the end of winter weather in the US.comment image

Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 8:47 am

The 10-day forecast for Kansas is for the temp to be above freezing. Think we’ve had our Last Spring Frost. Time to start the early veggies – peas, lettuce, radishes, etc.

Ireneusz Palmowski
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 9:20 am

Yes, under glass.comment image

rah
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 9:40 am

Yep and as the cold and warm continues to flip flop, it is looking like the conditions are set for the worst tornado season we have seen for sometime.

This season at this time is already above average.

The US has not had a really bad tornado year since 2011.

And so be ready for the climate clowns to come out in force declaring climate change is the cause. Never mind that seven of the last 10 seasons have been below average and never mind that in that time the proportion of “violent” tornadoes (EF-3+) has continued to decline. Weather records and history that has not been tampered with has to be ignored.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 3:00 pm

Kansas State University show all kinds of veggies suitable for April planting. From beets to collards and peas, from carrots to cauliflower to lettuce and onions. I’ve lost a few plants over the years to cold mornings but far more have survived to give good crops. I’ll stick with KSU, thank you.

rah
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 5:20 pm

Tubers are an exception and always have been.

Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 12:17 pm

Looks like a tornado generator weather.

April 3, 2022 7:08 am

Lord Monckton persists in undercutting his case with the theory that “They forgot the sun was shining.” As I’ve demonstrated, his theory is based on an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Derg
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 7:29 am

He is using your theory.

CO2 is a control knob… 😉

Reply to  Derg
April 3, 2022 7:45 am

If you were really interested in what my view is, you’d look here

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 9:16 am

Joe you say:”…fact that the projected carbon-dioxide increase’s temperature effect …”

I read this as you agree that CO2 can and does cause temperature increases of some amount.

No evidence of this.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 9:17 am

Hungry for clicks?
How about succinctly making your point. Perhaps maybe that will convince me to click on your substack.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 11:05 am

Hey people — pregnant or otherwise — I think that Joe’s link is worth a read. Not all of us, who wear the badge of skeptic proudly, necessarily agree with everyone else. The one thing we seem to share in common is a disagreement with the alarmists.

How many of you who down-voted Joe took the time to read either of his links?

Disputin
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 3, 2022 11:28 am

I read it, and I didn’t downvote it.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 3, 2022 11:49 am

His May 12, 2021 post is a valid opinion.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 2:01 pm

It is good Joe, but you didn’t address in particular to the post here which weakens your message a bit.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
April 3, 2022 4:39 pm

What, specifically, in his post don’t you think my post answered? How, exactly, do you think he’s proved that “climatology” neglected the sun?

The problem is that what he says about his theory is just word salad; nothing hangs together logically. If you can tell me with rigor why you think he’s proved anything, for example, by saying, “If the system-gain factor were to be just 1% greater today than it was in 1850, then ECS would exceed the value implicit in the data for the climate in 1850 by 250%,” then I’ll explain to you why he hasn’t. It may help you to refer to the discussion accompanying my post’s Fig. 7.

I welcome a clear, well-formed question. But I can’t guess what’s in your mind.

Fig 07.png
Doug S
Reply to  Joe Born
April 4, 2022 7:20 am

Nice summary of Dr. Steven Koonins recent remarks Joe. Dr. Koonin has been sitting down with various podcasters over the last few months and I’ve listened to each interview that I could find. He’s able to read, understand and distill the technical literature in a way the layman can digest it and in that explanation it’s very clear that politics and not science is the driving force behind “climate”.

Reply to  Doug S
April 4, 2022 7:34 am

Thanks for the kind words, and I agree with you about Dr. Koonin.

Last year former Indiana governor and current Purdue University president Mitch Daniels called Dr. Koonin’s book perhaps the most-important book of the year, and I’m inclined to agree. Although Dr. Koonin has been denied many platforms, I was pleased to see that he made it onto The Joe Rogan Experience.

Scissor
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 8:51 am

I find your “demonstration” to be well reasoned. I also follow the gist of Monckton’s argument but I don’t comprehend all of the assumptions and possible errors around these. There is something about the feed-back loop that bothers me in that reality exhibits non-linear and chaotic features very frequently.

I look forward to hearing about the outcome of the review of his paper. What seems to be happening with its review is quite strange, but what isn’t these days?

Reply to  Scissor
April 3, 2022 10:51 am

“Scissor” says there are “possible errors” in our analysis of climatology’s control-theoretic error. What errors?

Mr Born’s obscurantist “demonstration” is entirely irrelevant to our analysis, for it is predicated on the assumption that we take the system-gain factor as constant. However, we assume no such thing. as the head posting makes explicit.

Scissor
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 3, 2022 12:23 pm

I was referring to measurement errors around assumptions. I wonder specifically what impact these have on the results of your analysis. Perhaps your submitted paper provides an analysis of error that covers this.

I catch the gist of your argument but I’m getting lost is some of the detail. I would say much the same about Mr. Born’s analysis but I found his reasoning to be relatively easier to follow.

I gathered from him that your feedback loop is represented by a linear amplifier. You address this above by saying that the feed-back system also represents a potentially non-linear system at a particular moment of interest and in your reply above re: you do not take the system-gain factor as constant.

This is perhaps the essence of the disagreement between you and him.

I hope that your paper soon sees the light of day.

Reply to  Scissor
April 3, 2022 2:34 pm

He contends that he doesn’t require linear proportionality, but his low-ECS conclusion follows from feedback theory only if near linearity is what he assumes. As I showed, a high ECS value perfectly consistent with feedback theory so long as the system isn’t constrained to linearity.

In other words, Lord Monckton has gotten himself (and many of his followers) all mixed up.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 8:00 pm

Mr Born continues to conduct his analysis without reference to the actual climate. All he is really saying is that the system gain factor need not be constant. If he would only read the head posting, he would see that we do not take the system gain factor as constant. It is, however, necessarily very near to constant. Otherwise, ECS would be hundreds of degrees.

(Corrected your first name) SUNMOD

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 1:34 am

If he would only read the head posting, he would see that we do not take the system gain factor as constant. It is, however, necessarily very near to constant. Otherwise, ECS would be hundreds of degrees.

Here Lord Monckton slips up by departing from his usual gobbledygook and making a clear statement—one that my post’s Figs. 5 and 7 clearly rebut. 

Recall that his “system gain factor” is the ratio that the equilibrium temperature bears to what its value would be without feedback. Although the function illustrated in my post’s Figs. 5 and 7 exhibits an ECS of only four degrees rather than “hundreds of degrees,” its “system gain factor” is indeed “very near to constant”: at what Lord Monckton called the “263.5 K total reference temperature in 2020,” that function’s “system gain factor” is (289.0 K ÷ 263.5 K =) 1.097, which is only about 1% greater than its (285.0 K ÷ 262.5 K =) 1.086 “system gain factor” at the 262.5 K pre-industrial “reference” temperature. 

So any reader capable of performing arithmetic should be able see that his above-quoted assertion is clearly wrong.

The function of Figs. 5 and 7 also illustrates the innumeracy of his statement above that “If the system-gain factor were to be just 1% greater today than it was in 1850, then ECS would exceed the value implicit in the data for the climate in 1850 by 250%.” Instead, the 2020 ECS value exceeds the 1850 ECS value by less than 2%. 

And that’s just one hypothetical function. Suppose that the equilibrium temperatures were 283 K, 287 K, and 291 K for respective “reference” temperatures 262 K, 263 K, and 264 K. Then a 1% increase in “system gain function” would result in no ECS increase whatsoever.

Again, Lord Monckton rarely makes so clear a statement. Usually he dupes his many fanboys by trafficking in ambiguities and obscurities. As I pointed out in another post, though, he similarly slipped up and said something clear in what he called “the end of the global warming scam in a single slide.” That enabled me to show that his theory merely amounts to bad extrapolation.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 8:54 pm

Mr Born should really get around to reading the head posting. The system-gain factor – the ratio of equilibrium to reference temperatures – is necessarily very, very close to constant because otherwise ECS would be hundreds of degrees. The reason is that any increase in the system-gain factor must act not only on reference sensitivity but also on the far larger emission temperature.

Since the medium-term rate of global warming is half of what was originally predicted and a third of what is currently predicted, we may take climatology’s assumption that the system-gain factor is near-constant with temperature as correct. Mr Born persists in divorcing his arguments from the real climate, thereby leading himself into error.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 9:04 am

Have you ever read any of Willis Eschenbach’s discussions about
emergent phenomena, his thermostat hypothesis or the LaNina/ElNino
heat pump? You may find them interesting.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/category/emergent-climate-phenomena-2/

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/14/the-thermostat-hypothesis/

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/07/16/the-la-nina-pump/

Reply to  Old Man Winter
April 3, 2022 4:24 pm

Yes, I find Mr. Eschenbach’s thermostat theory fairly persuasive, at least in general terms. That is, it seems quite plausible that tropical-ocean temperatures are almost completely insensitive to the greenhouse-gas concentration. 

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 9:08 am
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 10:41 am

Mr Born should, perhaps, read the head posting. There, he will find the clear evidence that Hansen, Schlesinger, Lacis et hoc genus omne had neglected to take account of the feedback response to emission temperature in 1850, thereby effectively adding it to, and miscounting it as part of, the feedback response to direct warming by (i.e., to reference sensitivity to) preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases. They forgot the Sun was shining, and that its heat, as represented by emission temperature, would itself account for almost all the feedback response in 1850.

In the head posting (which is worth a read) Mr Born will find clear and explicit evidence that we make no assumption to the effect that the feedback fraction, and hence the system-gain factor, is constant. Instead, we show that even a 1% increase in the system-gain factor today compared with 1850 would engender a 250% increase in ECS.

Mr Born simply cannot be brought to understand that our reason for concluding that the values of the principal climate-relevant temperature feedbacks cannot be anything like as elevated, or their intervals so broad, as climatology has long but misguidedly imagined is that global temperature is not increasing at anything like the originally-predicted medium-term rate (and still less at anything like the currently-predicted rate). The system-gain factor – the ratio of equilibrium to reference sensitivity – is, therefore, necessarily very nearly constant in the industrial era.

It follows that climatology’s assumption of the possibility of exaggerated nonlinearity is contradicted not only by control theory – which Mr Born continues to treat in isolation from the real climate – but also by the failure of global temperatures to rise at anything like the predicted rate. Climatology has indeed made a very large error in forgetting that the Sun is shining.

Scissor
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 3, 2022 2:24 pm

I began reading Lacis (2010) but could hardly get past its first page where a big deal was made about CO2 being a non-condensing gas while water is. For example, they said, “CO2 is a well-mixed gas that does not condense or precipitate from the atmosphere. Water vapor and clouds, on the other hand, are highly active components of the climate system that respond rapidly to changes in temperature and air pressure by evaporating, condensing, and precipitating. This identifies water vapor and clouds as the fast feedback processes in the climate system.”

I would counter that to at least some extent, CO2 acts as a condensing gas as it is effectively washed out by rain. Now, it may not be significant, but it happens.

Haven’t gotten to the sunshine part yet.

https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2010/2010_Lacis_la09300d.pdf

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 3, 2022 2:27 pm

What my post actually said was that “although Lord Monckton has long conceded as he must that the climate system is nonlinear, he argues that it can’t be nonlinear enough to matter.” 

Look, I’m not going to repeat that whole post. If you read my post with an open mind and the wit to understand analytic geometry, you’ll see that Lord Moncton has been peddling gobbledygook.  But if reading it would tax your attention span too greatly, just consider his central claim:

They had forgotten the feedback response to the 255 K emission temperature that would obtain at the surface if, at the outset, there were no greenhouse gases in the air at all. They had misallocated it to, and miscounted it as part of, the actually tiny feedback response to the 8 K direct warming by the preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases.

Think about that. Wouldn’t it be more likely—in fact, isn’t it a a near certainty—that they did indeed remember the feedback at 255K but merely figured that it wouldn’t be very great up to that point, because there wouldn’t yet be much water vapor?   Lord Monckton manages to infer that they forgot sunshine only by postulating that feedback is linearly proportional to temperature:

At any given moment – such as 1850 – any feedback processes then subsisting must perforce respond equally to each degree of the entire (255 + 8) K reference temperature and hence proportionately to each component therein.

Since he has hopelessly mixed up mathematical concepts, I wrote a whole post to clarify things. If you got math, you’ll profit by reading it.

And what’s the relevance of his claim about a 250% ECS increase? Be honest. Does that make any sense to you? Work it out for yourself.

Fig 06.png
Derg
Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 3:36 pm

Now you guys are switching to water vapor?

I can’t keep this settled science straight 😔

Reply to  Derg
April 3, 2022 5:48 pm

Apparently not.

Ultimately, the arguments for positive feedback have long been based principally on evaporation rates, which depend on temperature, which depend on sunshine. So it’s unlikely that it escaped their attention that the sun was shining. Alarmists make a lot of mistakes, but there’s no evidence that ignoring solar radiation has been among them.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 10:22 pm

Yet again, Mr Born betrays his ignorance not only of control theory but also of climatology. Let him read Hansen (1984), or Schlesinger (1988) or Lacis et al. (2010, 2013). In each of these, he will see that, based on the quite well-constrained data for 1850, the conclusion is drawn that because the natural greenhouse effect was 32 K and reference sensitivity to the preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases was 8 K the system-gain factor (the ratio of the 32 K final warming to the 8 K direct warming) must be 4.

In reality, however, the system-gain factor was not 32 / 8 = 4. It was (255 + 32) / (255 + 8), or 1.095. Climatologists – the error seems universal – had simply not realized that at any particular moment, such as 1850, the feedback processes then subsisting must perforce respond equally to each degree of the reference temperature then obtaining, and thus proportionately to each of the components therein. Therefore, nearly all of the 24 K feedback response in 1850 was feedback response not to greenhouse gases, as climatologists had hitherto imagined, but to the fact that the Sun is shining – a fact that climatologists had overlooked in making their erroneous assumption that all feedback response in 1850 was feedback response to greenhouse-gas reference sensitivity.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 5:32 pm

JB -> “that they did indeed remember the feedback at 255K but merely figured that it wouldn’t be very great up to that point, because there wouldn’t yet be much water vapor? ”

Are you saying that average humidity has increased substantially along with CO2? Maybe you shouldn’t get too carried away.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 3, 2022 5:47 pm

No. Perhaps you should have read my post. I understand that this is all a little subtle. But do try to comprehend what my post actually said:

Now, despite evaporation’s high sensitivity to temperature there are good reasons for believing that on the contrary the feedback response is not as pronounced as Fig. 6 indicates—and that ECS is accordingly as low as Lord Monckton contends. But that doesn’t mean that high ECS estimates resulted from climate modelers’ failure to take the sun into account. Modelers more likely did take it into account in calculating evaporation rates, which as we’ve just seen actually do “suddenly wake up.” High ECS estimates probably just resulted from bad guesses modelers made about those evaporation rates’ implications.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 9:30 pm

No. High ECS estimates arose from the system-gain factor 4 incorrectly derived by climatologists studying the temperature equilibrium in 1850 (there was to be no warming trend thereafter for 80 years). They imagined that, since the natural greenhouse effect was 32 K, of which only 8 K was direct warming by preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases and 24 K was feedback response, the system-gain factor must be 32 / 8, or 4. Sir John Houghton explained that to me when I wrote to him in 2006 to ask him why he imagined that feedback response and hence ECS were so large.

The corrected system-gain factor for 1850 is not 32 / 8 = 4. It is (255 + 32) / (255 + 8) = 1.095 or thereby.

Reply to  Joe Born
April 3, 2022 9:25 pm

Mr Born here perpetrates one of his many elementary errors of control theory, a subject in which he has no qualifications or experience, whereas we have the benefit of the wisdom of a more than usually competent professor of control theory, as well as three control engineers. If only Mr Born were not so desperate to find fault where none exists, he would realize that, as a matter of common sense, if our paper had contained any of the elementary errors he so fancifully conjures up, it would have been thrown back at us more than a year ago, rather than languishing in the editorial management system.

He imagines, as does official climatology, that in 1850 the feedback response to emission temperature would be negligible but that the feedback response to the 30-times-smaller reference sensitivity to preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases would be enormous. In reality, however, at any given moment the feedback processes then subsisting must perforce respond equally to each degree of reference temperature (the sum of emission temperature and all perturbations) and, therefore, proportionately to each component in reference temperature.

Not for the first time, Mr Born makes the elementary control-theoretic error of assuming that a system in which at a given moment the feedback processes then subsisting respond with equal vigor to each degree of reference temperature and, therefore, proportionately to each component therein must be a linear system. Ex definitione, however, that is not the case: for we are considering the system only at a particular moment, at which variance with time is not at issue.

Like it or not, feedback processes are inanimate. At any particular moment, such as 1850, they cannot pick and choose between one degree of the reference temperature then obtaining and another. They must – and do – respond equally to each degree of that temperature. Since 29/30ths of reference temperature in 1850 was the emission temperature that would prevail near the surface if there were no greenhouse gases in the air at the outset, 29/30ths of the feedback response in 1850 was feedback response not to reference sensitivity but to emission temperature itself.

That is why the head posting (which Mr Born should perhaps read) makes it clear that the system diagram embodying the simplified feedback formulism is not only relevant to a system in which the system-gain factor is invariant. It is also a representation of an actually or potentially nonlinear system at a particular moment of interest. In 1850, the relevant quantities are quite well constrained. They are set out clearly in the system diagram.

Finally, Mr Born – who seems more than somewhat desperate as he realizes that the climate scam to the furtherance of which he has pointlessly devoted so much of his dotage is collapsing under the weight of climatology’s absurd control-theoretic error – perpetrates yet another elementary howler. He cannot understand how a mere 1% increase in the system-gain factor today compared with 1850 could possibly engender a 250% increase in ECS. He invites the reader to work it out for himself. So let us do just that. The system-gain factor in 1850 was 1.095 (not the 4 fancifully imagined by climatologists). If that system-gain factor were to rise by just 1%, not only reference sensitivity but also emission temperature would be increased, from which the conclusion follows.

It is precisely for that reason that the system-gain factor must be very close to invariant: for otherwise ECS might be in the hundreds of degrees. Indeed, if one were to assume that the absurdly elevated midrange estimates of the various temperature feedbacks imagined by IPCC were correct, after correction of climatology’s control-theoretic error ECS would be somewhere between 450 and 600 K. That is why it is so important that Mr Born should cease to do pointless calculations independent of the real climate. In the real world, powerful constraints limit the magnitude of the system-gain factor, which does not and cannot change much under anything like modern conditions.

Of course, precisely because a 1% increase in the system-gain factor would raise ECS from the 1.1 K derivable from the data for 1850 to more than 4 K today (approximately a 250% increase), one cannot altogether rule out the high sensitivities predicted by official climatology. However, those high sensitivities – for which the original pretext was the large feedback response in 1850, all of which climatology attributes to the greenhouse gases and none of which it attributes to the fact that the Sun is shining – cease to be a near-certainty once the error is corrected. They become one possibility – and, on the evidence, a not particularly likely one. The certainty of apocalypse vanishes away. And if, as is likely, there is really no difference between the system gain factor in 1850 and today, ECS will be little more than 1 K. And that will be both harmless and net-beneficial.

leitmotif
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 5:31 pm

Where the f**k is your evidence for feedbacks and the ECS, Brench?

You are just a sophist like Al Gore.

The sun heats the planet; the planet heats the atmosphere. END OF!

Reply to  leitmotif
April 5, 2022 7:49 pm

The furtively pseudonymous Leitmotif, that sheds more intemperately-expressed heat than light and would be very much better off not wasting its time here, is strikingly unaware of the evidence for feedback in the climate.

Just as the estimable Willis Eschenbach has a rule that those who cite him must cite and address his ipsissima verba rather than pejoratively paraphrasing him, so I have Monckton’s Rule: before commenting on the head posting, read it first and then think.

In the head posting, it is patiently and clearly explained that observed equilibrium temperature in 1850 was 287 K or thereby; that the emission temperature that would have obtained – and would obtain today – in the absence of any greenhouse gases in the air was 255 K or thereby; and that the difference between these two, the natural greenhouse effect, was 32 K.

That 32 K was the equilibrium sensitivity to the 8 K direct warming forced by the naturally-occurring, preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases. Therefore, equilibrium sensitivities exist.

The entire difference between 8 K and 32 K is feedback response. But to what did these feedback processes – chiefly from more water vapor in warmer air – respond? Official climatology says the 24 K feedback response was responding entirely to the 8 K reference sensitivity to (i.e., the direct warming by) the preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases. The implication is that the feedback response to the 30-times-larger 255 K emission temperature was zero.

It is, therefore, clear from the data for 1850 that feedback response exists.

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 7:17 am

Tropics -0.08 and the Arctic +0.74 C in March. This is kind of funny when we remember the SSW in March at high latitudes. As recently as February the anomaly in the Arctic was -0.31 C.
YEAR MO GLOBE NHEM. SHEM. TROPIC USA48 ARCTIC AUST
2022 02 -0.01 0.01 -0.02 -0.24 -0.05 -0.31 -0.50
2022 03 0.15 0.27 0.02 -0.08 0.21 0.74 0.02

John Furst
April 3, 2022 7:19 am

Thank you Lord Mockton!
Your skill and word selection is always a joy to read–and the subject is, as you say “ the largest fraud in human history.”

As a retired electric utility engineer, the basic fact that existing/paid for generation was shut down BEFORE equivalent reliable replacements were in place is evidence enough that this massive fraud is real!

Keep fighting for all of us.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  John Furst
April 3, 2022 7:35 am

Here here

fretslider
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 7:44 am

Hear hear

ResourceGuy
Reply to  fretslider
April 3, 2022 9:14 am

Thank you

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  fretslider
April 3, 2022 10:18 am

Pizza! Pizza!

Mujik
Reply to  fretslider
April 5, 2022 11:13 am

Honk honk

leitmotif
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 2:37 pm

Where, where?

Reply to  John Furst
April 3, 2022 1:38 pm

Mr Furst is very kind. My team will keep working until either someone comes up with a convincing refutation of our conclusion that the global warming panic arose from an elementary error of physics or our paper is published for all to see.

leitmotif
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 3, 2022 3:30 pm

the global warming panic arose from an elementary error of physics 

Yeah, right, Brench. So nothing to to do with the corrupt IPCC that was formed in 1988 by UNEP and the WMO?

The prime objective of the IPCC was to scare the cr@p out of us so we would cleave to the UN to solve our existential problems instead of going through the ballot box.

Is there anybody here who thinks we are not only being undermined by climate change alarmists but also by climate change lukewarmists who see this as an opportunity to win the middle ground between alarmists and “deniers”?

The GHE hypothesis is without evidence. The ECS assertion is without evidence. The global mean temperature is meaningless. The term “climate change” is meaningless – what climate are we talking about?

You all know that atmospheric CO2 is only 0.042% of the atmosphere.

You all know that the human contribution is only 3% of that 0.042%.

You all know that 92% of the earth’s emission spectrum is transparent to the CO2 15 micron absorption band.

You all know that a CO2 molecule does not have a net dipole moment and uses its vibrational modes..

You all know that Hoyt Hottel 1954 made it clear CO2 does nothing.
until it gets “hot”.

But the real problem is a pseudo-acceptance of junk science for political reasons rather than cutting that junk science off at its roots.

Richard Feynman – “It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.”

Where did WUWT go wrong?

Richard Thornton
Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 9:31 pm

I think Leitmotif is correct. Global Warming/Climate change theory is like CO2 in that it is only .042% science and the rest is politics/religion and therefore unrefutable by even the best science and sciencetific arguement.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 9:36 pm

Leitmotif asks where WUWT went wrong. Well, it didn’t go wrong. It has long been the most visited climate-change website.

The fact is that climatology has indeed made an elementary error of physics – an error so elementary, and so embarrassing, that the learned journal to which we submitted our paper dare not send the paper back to us, because it is in substance sound, but dare not publish it because that would tip the gravy-train into the gulch.

Leitmotif imagines that CO2 and other greenhouse gases have a negligible effect on temperature. In that event, he must explain why it was that in 1850 the global mean surface temperature exceeded the 255 K emission temperature by as much as 32 K. Where did that 32 K come from? The answer is that 8 K of it came from direct warming by CO2 and other preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases, and 24 K came from temperature feedback, chiefly in the form of more water vapor (a greenhouse gas) in warmer air.

Matt G
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 3:56 am

This science is still not correct and so far nobody has had it right yet.

The emission temperature of 255 K doesn’t include the oceans.

How can 8 K come from C02 etc. and 24 K come from temperature feedback but nothing come from the oceans?

The oceans energy dwarfs the atmospheres and yet none of these calculations are taking any of it into account.

These values are very likely a fraction of what is being suggested when oceans are taken into account.

Matt G
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 1:33 pm

Some people may have doubts with there not been enough information here.

Firstly using the Stefan–Boltzmann law if the Earth is treated like the moon with the same albedo (~0.1) this gives around 272k with no atmosphere. This is virtually the same as the moon, but of course the moon doesn’t have an ocean. This provides why the 255k doesn’t include any influence from a ocean.
Secondly the difference between ocean and land temepratures are considerably different in absolute values. Therefore showing energy content is sourced from warming below the surface significantly more than the atmosphere. This energy release from the ocean provides this energy difference between the atmopshere over land and ocean.

If the planet was to change 100% either land or ocean, global temperature would changed by several degrees at least. This indicates that to get to global temperatures around the current 288k it is not just the atmospheric gases and feedback responsible for this.

Finally, some may doubt the energy between the ocean and atmosphere. The figures are for the atmosphere 5×10(21)j/k and the ocean 5.6×10(24)j/k. This represents 1120 times more energy in the ocean than the atmosphere.

The planets laspe rate is caused by the surface heating the atmosphere where short wave radiaiton from the sun that is not reflected is virtually all absorbsed at the surface with little in the atmosphere itself. This warms the surface considerably more than the atmsophere. If the TOA absorbed the most shortwave radiation energy decreasing downward, then the laspe rate would be in reverse to what it is now.

leitmotif
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 5:39 pm

Leitmotif imagines that CO2 and other greenhouse gases have a negligible effect on temperature.

No I don’t. I assert they cannot raise the surface temperature,

You are such a sophist, Brench. And dangerous too because you keep the lukewarmist stance alive and kicking.

Where is your evidence? Where is your data?

If you don’t have any you have nothing.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 5, 2022 7:55 pm

Monckton’s Rule: before commenting on the head posting, read it first and then think.

Since emission temperature is 255 K or thereby, and that temperature would obtain in the entire absence of greenhouse gases in the air, and since the observed global mean surface temperature in 1850, before we had anything to do with it, was 287 K or thereby, the 32 K difference – the natural greenhouse effect – was driven by greenhouse gases, chiefly the condensing greenhouse gas, water vapor, by way of temperature feedback response.

It is, therefore, not legitimate to argue that greenhouse gases cannot raise global temperature. They can. They do. But not by anything like as much as official climatology so profitably imagines.

leitmotif
Reply to  John Furst
April 3, 2022 2:40 pm

Sycophancy is alive and kicking.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 9:36 pm

Don’t whine.

leitmotif
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 5:01 pm

Don’t be a son of sophistry, Brench.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 5, 2022 7:56 pm

Don’t whine. Those who have nothing useful or scientifically tenable to contribute should, as the scholars of ancient Greece used to say, “keep holy silence”.

April 3, 2022 7:19 am

Ja. Ja. Winter is coming.
https://breadonthewater.co.za/2022/03/08/who-or-what-turned-up-the-heat/
Or not?
Sofar we are lucky. But incoming solar is still going down.

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 7:23 am

Equatorial Pacific and Atlantic surface temperatures are now below average (1981-2010).comment image

Ireneusz Palmowski
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 8:21 am

comment image

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 11:13 am

I for one, tend to ignore your frequent posts because they are off topic for the thread and break the flow of dialogue. Also, I don’t understand what your predictions are based on. How about writing an article that lays out your assumptions and conjectures, with supporting facts or citations? Do you have a summary of how accurate your past predictions have been, including false positives and false negatives?

I’m less impressed by colorful pictures than I am by justified predictions. If I want pretty pictures I can go to YouTube and look at the NASA animations.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 3, 2022 12:06 pm

Even some basic information about interpreting them would be helpful, I certainly don’t understand what I am looking at in the graphics.

Ireneusz Palmowski
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 3, 2022 1:03 pm

It happens.

paul courtney
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 4, 2022 11:27 am

Mr. Spencer: My complaint is, Mr. Palmowski is gonna give us the weather, but he never ever gives us a report on traffic!

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  paul courtney
April 5, 2022 9:33 pm

I’d like to know whether his predictions are any better than the climate models.

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 7:29 am
John Tillman
April 3, 2022 7:40 am

The PDO shift occurred in 1977. Well do I recall its effects in Oregon. While it happened during the winter of 1976-77, December 21-31 remained under the old regime. The shift occurred in January and February.

John Tillman
Reply to  John Tillman
April 3, 2022 8:35 am

There was snow in December but not in January and February. It was the most severe snow drought in at least the prior century.

Dave Fair
Reply to  John Tillman
April 3, 2022 9:56 am

John, I was working for the Federal Bonneville Power Administration (BPA) as a senior engineer at the time. Shortly afterwards I moved to Western Area Power Administration’s (WAPA) Sacramento [CA] Area Office as Director of System Planning and Resources. One of my primary duties was to participate in renegotiation of the contract with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) because we had “busted” the existing contract for guaranteed power deliveries from the hydroelectric system. That was a direct result of the PDO shift-related drought. Droughts are now “unprecedented?”

As a side-note, PG&E was not paying the previously-negotiated price during the negotiations and the taxpayers were losing significant monies every month as a result. There was no sense of urgency on the part of WAPA higherups because it wasn’t costing them anything. In fact, the negotiations were still ongoing when I left a few years later, a perfect example of government’s feckless treatment of their responsibilities. Not long after that I left the lucrative Federal employment in disgust. Best thing I ever did.

John Tillman
Reply to  Dave Fair
April 3, 2022 2:13 pm

Good on you!

Yes, the lack of snow pack should have made the writing on the wall obvious.

Dave Fair
Reply to  John Tillman
April 3, 2022 9:32 am

I was also there at the time and can attest to John’s observations.

John Tillman
Reply to  Dave Fair
April 3, 2022 2:19 pm

The closest our dryland wheat ranch ever came to a crop failure was in 1977.

The lack of snow was made worse by extreme cold (cloudless nights!), threatning to kill the uncovered wheatlings. But they’d gone dormant in time, so survived. Enough spring rain fell for us to survive as well. Dad never bought crop insurance.

November and December snow were low, but not outside the normal range, which varies greatly in those months.

ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 7:45 am
Dave Fair
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 10:08 am

I follow Rasmussen because it tracks actual voters’ opinions.

Derg
Reply to  Dave Fair
April 3, 2022 1:06 pm

Does Rasmussen have Joe at 25?

How voters have regret?

Dave Fair
Reply to  Derg
April 3, 2022 1:52 pm

On April Fool Day, Rasmussen had: Biden at 40% approval and 58% disapproval, 21% strongly approve with 48% strongly disapprove = -27 Presidential Approval Index. Comparing President Trump (3/31/18) 47% approval vs President Biden (3/31/22) 42% approval is not a happy comparison. Biden’s approval rating went south of Trump’s last December (12/22 vs 12/17) and has stayed there. The poll has a sampling error of +/- 2.5% with a 95% confidence interval.

If about 50% of voting Americans disapprove of you strongly after you have been in office a little over a year, your party is in trouble in the midterms and you shouldn’t plan on running in the next election even if you are cognitively up to it, nor should anybody associated with you. Anyway, you should expect that the other party will stifle any of your (handlers’) programs beginning 1/3/23. Disappointment and heartache are on the way.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Dave Fair
April 3, 2022 1:25 pm

Does the downvoter assert Rasmussen doesn’t survey actual voters? Or just doesn’t like Rasmussen because he doesn’t over-sample Democrats?

April 3, 2022 7:50 am

IPCC (1990, p. xxiv) confidently predicted 1.8 K global mean anthropogenic warming from 1850-2030. Of this, 0.5 K (HadCRUT5: Morice et al. 2021) had occurred by 1990, so that the projection was equivalent to 1.3 K over the four decades 1991-2030, or 0.34 K decade–1.

I never understand why you need to overstate this just to add a few extra hundredths of difference.

You could have a reasonable argument to simply say that the 30 year old IPCC report predicted there might be around 1C waming by 2025, and it seems unlikly that will be correct. But instead you keep making these easily debunked exagerations, just to make it look slightly worse than it was.

You say their prediction was “confident”. In fact the emphasis the large uncertainties

There are many uncertainties in our predictions particularly with regard to the timing, magnitude and regional patterns of climate change…

You ignore their own stated rate of rise of around 0.3C / decade, with an uncertainty range of 0.2 – 0.5C / decade.

You say they predicted 1.8C of warming by 2030 over the 1850 value. But in fact that’s over the pre-industrial value which they define as 1750-1800.

You keep insisting that when they predicted 1.8C over-preindustrial temperatures that they meant there had only been 0.5C since then, so where actually predicting 1.3C over the next 40 years, yet it’s clear from their graphs and statements that the models are showing 1990 as around 1C warmer then pre-industrial.

You ignore their clear statement that

Because of other factors which influence climate, we would not expect the rise to be a steady one

Ashby Lynch
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 8:13 am

It seems you know the data well. It would be great if you developed a post for this site on this subject, expounding on the arguments and data you present here. It would be helpful to me and, I presume, others.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Ashby Lynch
April 3, 2022 8:30 am

bellcurveman likes to whine, a lot.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 8:51 am

Because of other factors which influence climate, we would not expect the rise to be a steady one”

Then why do they always assume that the rise *will* be a steady one?

rah
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 11:50 am

Well if you look at NOAA and NASAs “adjusted data” it is obvious that they are doing their best to make the temperature record follow the steady rise in atmospheric CO2.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 12:37 pm

Because of other factors which influence climate, we would not expect the rise to be a steady one”

A much simpler more accurate excuse to explain why temperatures do NOT follow CO₂ atmosphere concentration(s), is “We don’t know”!

Instead, there are continual bafflegab attempts to disguise their assumed brilliance that fails to predict climate anything anywhere near accurately.

Meab
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 9:01 am

Do you even read the drivel that you promote, Bellend?

You do realize that CO2 concentration is essentially uniform across the world so if you assume (incorrectly, as you know) that CO2 is the sole control knob all of the regional variability averages out? Yet climate models have no idea what caused many previous periods of global warming and cooling when CO2 was constant so they CLEARLY don’t account for all climate factors. Climate modelers believe their models even though the actual temperature history tells them that they shouldn’t. You shouldn’t believe their predictions and uncertainty ranges either.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Meab
April 3, 2022 11:29 am

You do realize that CO2 concentration is essentially uniform across the world …

Officially, CO2 is supposed to be “well mixed. However, lately, NASA seems to be making a point of how it varies across the globe with time and latitude.

https://scitechdaily.com/nasa-makes-first-of-its-kind-detection-of-reduced-human-co2-emissions/

See especially the embedded animation here:

https://scitechdaily.com/nasas-new-global-view-of-co2-critical-step-for-carbon-cycle-science/

bdgwx
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
April 3, 2022 12:22 pm

Both the publication and the animation say the range on the spatial variability of CO2 is only 5%. And that’s the range (max-min). The standard deviation is far lower than that. If that’s not well-mixed then I don’t know what is.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 2:48 pm

Not sure what you are looking at. The first animation talks about a 3% to 13% drop in overall CO2 due to covid, not a 5% variation around the globe. The second animation shows CO2 concentration varying from 300 ppm to 400 ppm in many locations – a 30% variation over time and space, very much not a linear growth pattern at all. In the second link it is noted that the SH is very different from the NH as is shown by the animation. Yet the climate scientists and their models continue to predict *average global temperatures* as if there were no differences in the hemispheres let alone even the smaller regions. If you watch the second animation the CO2 concentration north and south of the Mason-Dixon line are quite different. If CO2 is the temperature driver then the temperature growth from Sothern CA, to New Mexico to Texas, Alabama, and Georgie plus Mexico should be very different from that of the northern states of the US plus Canada.

Yet all we hear from the climate scientists and their models is that the globe is going to turn into a cinder, all the animals are going to die, all the crops are going to fail, and humankind is going to die from starvation and heat stroke.

The model of CO2 however, shows we should all be migrating to Australia, South Africa, and the southern part of South America where the CO2 concentration is not nearly as high as it is north of there.

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 3:17 pm

TG said: “The first animation talks about a 3% to 13% drop in overall CO2 due to covid”.

That’s not what the article says. It says and I quote.

The team’s measurements showed that in the Northern Hemisphere, human-generated growth in CO2 concentrations dropped from February through May 2020 and rebounded during the summer, consistent with a global emissions decrease of 3% to 13% for the year.

Notice that it does NOT say overall CO2 (in units of ppm) but emissions (in units of GtCO2 or ppm/yr). Overall CO2 did NOT drop by 3 to 13% from 410 ppm to 398 – 357 ppm.

Furthermore, Weir et al. 2021 figure 1 clearly shows the spatial range as 406 to 420.

TG said: “The second animation shows CO2 concentration varying from 300 ppm to 400 ppm in many locations”

The scale on the animation is 390 to 408 ppm.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 3:51 pm

The team’s measurements showed that in the Northern Hemisphere, human-generated growth in CO2 concentrations dropped from February through May 2020 and rebounded during the summer, consistent with a global emissions decrease of 3% to 13% for the year.”

What in Pete’s name do you think this verbiage is saying?

YOU SAID: “Both the publication and the animation say the range on the spatial variability of CO2 is only 5%”

That is not at all what the quoted verbiage says. It doesn’t mention spatial variability at all!

Spatial variability is *NOT* the same thing as *emmisions” variability!

5% spatial variability *IS* significant. The variation is time and space dependent. When the mix is 5% down then more heat will be lost to space – unless you assume water vapor absorbs what CO2 doesn’t. If you make that assumption then it follows that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is irrelevant. Water vapor is the controlling factor.

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 3, 2022 7:15 pm

TG said: “What in Pete’s name do you think this verbiage is saying?”

It is saying the emissions decreased by 3 to 13%. That is emissions. I have underlined and boldened emissions to drive home the point. Emissions are not the same thing as the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere nor the spatial variability of it.

TG said: “YOU SAID: “Both the publication and the animation say the range on the spatial variability of CO2 is only 5%”

Yep. And I stand behind what I said. The range on the spatial variability of CO2 is only 5%. I said nothing about the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere nor the human emissions. CO2 is a well-mixed gas and the links CS posted above are consistent with that conclusion.

TG said: “That is not at all what the quoted verbiage says. It doesn’t mention spatial variability at all!”

That’s right. It doesn’t. That verbiage that you picked from that article has nothing to do with my post. I think you are attempting to deflect and divert the conversation away from the fact that CO2 is a well-mixed gas.

TG said: “Spatial variability is *NOT* the same thing as *emmisions” variability!”

No offense, duh. I want you to repeat this over and over and burn it into your brain. That way hopefully on your next post won’t try bring up emissions when we are talking about spatial variability.

I want you to read the publication being discussed. I want you to then tell the WUWT audience what that publication says in regard to the spatial variability of CO2.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 8:47 pm

You are in no position to make demands, you silly person.

Derg
Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 12:42 am

“ The scale on the animation is 390 to 408 ppm.”

Holy sh1t what a range

bdgwx
Reply to  Derg
April 4, 2022 8:20 am

I’m not sure I’m following your comment. Am I supposed to be gobsmacked by the 390 to 408 ppm range as well?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 9:40 pm

… rebounded during the summer, consistent with a global emissions decrease of 3% to 13% for the year.

An average will always have less variance than the original data from which the average was derived.

Reply to  Meab
April 3, 2022 11:55 am

What happens in any given place mostly depends on what winds are blowing which way.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 9:04 am

Bellman rather foolishly references the IPCC statement “Because of other factors which influence climate, we would not expect the rise to be a steady one”

Yet he totally ignores the IPCC’s own latest* CMIP5 report that shows their ensemble of 25-plus separate climate models predicts an average rise rate of 0.44 °C/decade, which can be compared to factual (i.e. measured) average rise rate of just 0.16 °C/decade. (Ref: Figure 2 at https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/11/climate-model-democracy/ )

The assertion of an ensemble average rise rate does not permit a parallel claim of “we would not expect the rise to be a steady one”.

Does the IPCC believe their use of ensemble modeling is valid or not?

*note: AFAIK, CMIP6 is undergoing “progressive release” at time of this post, with data from all climate models that are to be compared not fully in yet.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 12:34 pm

I downloaded the CMIP5 data from the KNMI Explorer. I get an average warming rate of +0.23 C/decade from 1979-2021. This is compared to the average of UAH, RSS, HadCRUT, BEST, GISTEMP, NOAA, ERA, and RATPAC of +0.19 C/decade.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 6:10 pm

Yet he totally ignores the IPCC’s own latest* CMIP5 report that shows their ensemble of 25-plus separate climate models predicts an average rise rate of 0.44 °C/decade, which can be compared to factual (i.e. measured) average rise rate of just 0.16 °C/decade.

I’m quoting the ancient 1990 IPCC report. You know, the one Monckton was talking about. The only one he ever mentions now.

The IPCC AR5’s actual short term projection is:

The global mean surface temperature change for the period 2016–2035 relative to 1986–2005 is similar for the four RCPs and will likely be in the range 0.3°C to 0.7°C (medium confidence).

SPM 2.2 Projected changes in the climate system
https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf

This is based on surface data not satellite, but using UAH the average for 1986-2005 was -0.11 °C. So far the average since 2016 has been +0.25 °C. That’s obviously only based on 6 years, time will tell if the next 14 years see an increase or decrease.

“The assertion of an ensemble average rise rate does not permit a parallel claim of “we would not expect the rise to be a steady one”.”

No idea what you are on about here. Who’s asserted what? Averaging multiple models will smooth out variations in the rise.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 7:37 pm

Bellman, you stated/asked:
“No idea what you are on about here. Who’s asserted what? Averaging multiple models will smooth out variations in the rise.”

As I stated in my above post: “Ref: Figure 2 at https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/11/climate-model-democracy/

Take notice of the upper left corner box of that figure that has this:
Model Trend Average: +0.44 °C/decade
Observational Trend Average: +0.16 °C/decade

Furthermore, the title description for this figure states this:
“Ross McKitrick and John Christy compare the models to the observations statistically, and find the difference is statistically significant. The data is from their 2018 paper (McKitrick & Christy, 2018), the plot is from John Christy.”

I hope this is sufficient to give you an idea.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 7:23 am

Not answering my question. You say someone’s making an assertion that excludes an unsteady rise. Yet the graph shows a whole host of model projections, none of which shows a steady rise.

You seem to be claiming that because the average of all these different models smooths out to a steady rise, that somehow means the IPCC are asserting the rise will be steady.

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 8:32 am

No, I never said “someone’s making an assertion . . .”

You specifically asked: “Who’s asserted what?”

I replied with:
“Ross McKitrick and John Christy compare the models to the observations statistically, and find the difference is statistically significant. The data is from their 2018 paper (McKitrick & Christy, 2018), the plot is from John Christy.”

What more needs be said?

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 8:42 am

No, I never said “someone’s making an assertion . . .”

You said “The assertion of an ensemble average rise rate does not permit a parallel claim of “we would not expect the rise to be a steady one”.”

If you don’t mean someone asserted that there was an average rise rate being predicted by the IPCC models, thus meaning they were wrong to claim that they didn’t expect a steady rise, what did you mean?

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 12:41 pm

Look up the meaning of the word “rhetorical”.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 2:10 pm

marked by the use of impressive-sounding but mostly meaningless words and phrases

Now could you just try to explain what you meant? Why do you think it’s foolish to say that the temperature rise will not be steady.

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 4:49 pm

Your post started with:

marked by the use of impressive-sounding but mostly meaningless words and phrases

Hmmm . . . got a reference/link for the dictionary or source that gives that definition of “rhetorical”?

I thought not.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 5:04 pm

I thought not.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/rhetorical

marked by the use of impressive-sounding but mostly meaningless words and phrases

Synonyms for rhetorical

bombastic,
flatulent,
fustian,
gaseous,
gassy,
grandiloquent,
oratorical,
orotund,
windy
Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 11:30 pm

Hmmm . . . I see that you give a link to Webster’s on-line thesaurus but not their dictionary, which is readily available at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorical .

I have attached a screen grab that shows how their on-line dictionary defines “rhetorical”, which is quite different and for which I point to their definition 1(b) as being applicable to my meaning and my use in the above comments.

As to Webster’s on-line thesaurus‘s list of synonyms (same as those given in their dictionary), which you accurately summarize, I don’t find any of those to be “mostly meaningless” as Webster’s thesaurus (and thesaurus only) asserts.

Thus, the Webster’s on-line thesaurus definition of rhetorical is both inconsistent with their on-line dictionary as well as being internally inconsistent.

Rhetorical.jpg
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 4:35 am

Kinda like CO2 is the control knob for temperature so we have to destroy our reliable electric generation to fix something.

Oh wait, CO2 is only one factor in the temperature rise. But we must still kill fossil fuels because of CO2!

Oh wait, tomorrow it will be CH4 that needs to be removed from human’s toolkit of current survival methods.

Oh wait, …

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 5:22 am

You asked for a definition, I gave you one. You said I was making it up so I gave you a link. Now you discover that words can have more than one meaning, and start insisting I use your definition.

Does any of this have a point? I wasn’t sure why you asked for the definition in the first place. Wasn’t sure if you were claiming to be rhetorical or accusing me of being it. This is all a distraction from your claim I was foolish to quote the IPCC saying the rise would not be steady.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 7:59 am

“. . . and start insisting I use your definition.”

Got any evidence to go with that?

I just pointed out the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary has a serious difference in definition the word “rhetorical” compared to the Merriam-Webster on-line thesaurus.

The fact that revealing that difference gored your bull (pardon the pun) is something you’ll have have to deal with yourself.

I stand by my posted comments.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 9:43 am

“. . . and start insisting I use your definition.”

Got any evidence to go with that?

I have attached a screen grab that shows how their on-line dictionary defines “rhetorical”, which is quite different and for which I point to their definition 1(b) as being applicable to my meaning and my use in the above comments.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/04/03/the-new-pause-lengthens-now-7-years-6-months/#comment-3491912

The fact that revealing that difference gored your bull (pardon the pun) is something you’ll have have to deal with yourself.

Pun?

As I said before, I’ve no idea what point you think you are trying to make. A questioned what you meant by the average proving a steady rise, and you asked me to look up the definition for rhetorical. I wasn’t sure if you were claiming to using rhetoric or where accusing me of it.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 6:00 pm

“As I said before, I’ve no idea what point you think you are trying to make.”

That statement alone speaks volumes.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 5:26 am

Note your Webster’s dictionary has as second definition

given to rhetoric : grandiloquent

And here’s their definition of grandiloquent

a lofty, extravagantly colorful, pompous, or bombastic style, manner, or quality especially in language

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 7:44 am

I will note the reference to a second definition . . . however, I obviously need to remind you that in my post above on April 4, 2022 11:30 pm I specifically stated: “. . . and for which I point to their definition 1(b) as being applicable to my meaning and my use in the above comments.”

Yet another failed attempt at deflection on your part.

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 3:06 pm

Because an average without an associated variance or standard deviation tells you nothing about the dispersal of the data around the mean. The dispersal of the data around the mean of an ensemble is hidden. The average mean itself hides that information. Consequently, a steady rise of temperature would not be expected. It should VARY AROUND THE MEAN if it is realistic.

The mean could be 50 calculated from 51 to 49 or from 0 to 100. Who knows without a standard deviation?

Statistics isn’t a game to try and find some numbers that show what you want. Statistics are designed to provide an informative description of data. If you don’t want to provide the entire panoply of information like skewness, kurtosis, standard deviation, etc. Then simply quoting a mean is nothing more than doing what the old adage says about figures.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 3:33 pm

Nothing’s hidden. It’s shown in the graphs. My question was why Gordon A. Dressler wants to look at the average to claim that we should expect any rise to be steady.

You seem to be agreeing with me – you don’t expect the rise to be steady.

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 4:19 pm

Of course something is being hidden. If I see an average without a standard deviation or variance, I immediately know that something has been hidden. Looking at an ensemble, you have no idea how many runs of each component has been averaged together to even achieve that one projection. How many times do we see a simple graph that only shows the ensemble average and not the entire group of components? Can you find the total standard deviation or variance of the data that went into any RCP projection?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 5:05 pm

You need to take this up with Gordon A. Dressler and his sources.

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 6:54 pm

You are the one questioning what an average shows or doesn’t show.

You need to address the points I raised.

What are the standard deviation, variance, kurtosis, or skewness quoted with an ensemble average?

Averages MUST have these or they are worthless. Dispersion of the data and it’s shape is important in judging what the average tells you.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 7:11 pm

Good, so Gordon A. Dressler’s argument is worthless, as I was saying. The 1990 IPCC was right to say the warming would not be a steady rise.

I’m really not sure if you are following this argument. You need to go back to the start and work down. I’ve not said anything about the ensemble mean except it doesn’t prove that the rise will be steady.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 7:16 am

If the ensemble mean (which *is* a steady rise) doesn’t prove the rise will be steady then of what use is it?

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 11:06 am

It is the best estimate of the expectation of the value. It’s the same concept used with the operational weather forecasting models GEFS, EPS, and the like. The ensemble mean has more objective skill in predicting the value at a specific point in time than any one member alone. It cannot be used to assess the variability of that value. For that task you need to use a different technique. Just because you decided to drive a screw with a hammer doesn’t mean the hammer is useless. It means you chose the wrong tool for the task. It’s the same with the ensemble mean. It is the wrong tool for the task of quantifying variability.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 11:58 am

It is the best estimate of the expectation of the value.”

Actually, it isn’t. An average is supposed to give an expectation of the next value. But the comparison of the ensemble mean with actual observations show the two are diverging so the ensemble average fails to give a valid expectation of the next value.

 It’s the same concept used with the operational weather forecasting models GEFS, EPS, and the like.”

Is that why forecasted hurricane tracks can show landfall ranging from South Florida to the Carolina’s? Is that why they couldn’t even get the track of Katrina correct an hour before landfall? Those kinds of results don’t provide much confidence in their expectation of values.

“The ensemble mean has more objective skill in predicting the value at a specific point in time than any one member alone. “

Except they do *NOT* show any more objective skill at any point in time.

It’s the same with the ensemble mean. It is the wrong tool for the task of quantifying variability.”

I ask again – then what is the use of the ensemble mean?

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 3:30 pm

TG said: “Is that why forecasted hurricane tracks can show landfall ranging from South Florida to the Carolina’s?”

No. The ensemble mean is not used to form the uncertainty envelop. The ensemble spread is used for that. Again…you have to use the right tool for the job.

TG said: “Is that why they couldn’t even get the track of Katrina correct an hour before landfall?”

You can view the forecast verification here. The 12 hour forecast error for Katrina was 24.5 nm. That is slightly better than the 2005 season average of 35 nm.

TG said: “Except they do *NOT* show any more objective skill at any point in time.”

Oh but they do! Here is the most recent 2020 report. Notice that the ensemble forecasts are superior to individual forecasts for both track and intensity forecasts.

TG said: “I ask again – then what is the use of the ensemble mean?”

It’s still the same answer. To provide the best expectation of a value. If you can think you can do better than the TVCA or HCCA ensemble mean in forecasting cyclone tracks and intensities then prove it. Publish your results.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 6:46 am

Oh but they do! Here is the most recent 2020 report.

The many wrongs make a right fantasy of consensus climatology.

Every member of the ensemble has a large uncertainty bound. The uncertainty bound of the mean is the root-mean-square of the uncertainties of the individual projections.

The uncertainty of the ensemble mean is so large that its correspondence with any measured temperature trend is indistinguishable from happenstance.

The projections are physically meaningless because the underlying physics is known to be wrong or incomplete or both. Incidental data tracking provides no assurance of physical accuracy.

It’s amazing how this standard fact of scientific thinking consistently escapes the ken of CO₂ aficionados.

They must be uniquely vulnerable to a neural disease state that’s both acquired and permanent, because repeated exposure to scientific rationality provides no cure.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 7:11 am

It is very much like the old, old Wacky Plank** saying:

Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!

**early forerunners of the electronic meme

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 10:03 am

Pat, let me make sure I’m understanding your point. You’re saying all of the NHC tropical cyclone forecasting models are “physically meaningless because the underlying physics is known to be wrong or incomplete or both.”? Is this correct?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 10:38 am

Let’s understand what you’re saying, bdgwx.

Are you saying those cyclone forecast models are able to forecast without multiple daily data updates?

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 1:12 pm

PF said: “Are you saying those cyclone forecast models are able to forecast without multiple daily data updates?”

Absolutely not. In fact, I’m saying the opposite. They take as input observations representing the initial conditions. That’s what models do. They take inputs and process them using a set of rules, heuristics, algorithms, and equations representing the way reality works and produce outputs.

I’m also saying that the ensemble mean of a bunch of models is superior to individual models in regard to forecasting skill for both track and intensity. Tim Gorman challenged that by using an example in the domain of tropical cyclone forecast. I debunked his challenge by showing that TVCA and HCCA are, indeed, superior to individual models like HWRF, HMON, GFSO, UKM, ECMWF, CTX, etc.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 1:53 pm

I’m also saying that the ensemble mean of a bunch of models is superior to individual models in regard to forecasting skill for both track and intensity. Tim Gorman challenged that by using an example in the domain of tropical cyclone forecast. I debunked his challenge by showing that TVCA and HCCA are, indeed, superior to individual models like HWRF, HMON, GFSO, UKM, ECMWF, CTX, etc.”

If the mean of the ensembles is more accurate than the individual models themselves then that either has to be pure luck or the individual models are truly accurate by themselves. An average of wrong models simply can’t give an accurate result in any other manner. Yet you are claiming that the individual models are *not* accurate by themselves. That only leaves pure luck as the operating factor.

It’s why neither the models or the ensemble means could predict the landfall of Katrina accurately even an hour before landfall.



bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 10:11 am

Pat Frank said: “The uncertainty bound of the mean is the root-mean-square of the uncertainties of the individual projections.”

Patently False! Read Bevington section 3 and 4. Pay particular attention to equation 3.14, 4.10 through 4.14. Also refer to Taylor and the GUM which say the same thing. You can confirm this with the NIST uncertainty calculator as well.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 11:36 am

No they don’t. Do you know why. Because the underlying requirements for those are not being met. You need to do more than just cherry pick equations.

Here is a challenge. Pick just one of the equations you mentioned, then list each and every requirement discussed in the book and describe how they are met. Then describe how the assumptions in the product you are using as an example meet those requirements.

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 1:22 pm

3.14. U and V are uncorrelated and x is the function f(U, …, V). If U and V have correlation then the more general form 3.13 must used. Note that even with correlation of r(U, V) = 1 the uncertainty on f(U, V) = (U+V)/2 is not root-sum square. The NIST uncertainty calculated I linked to will handle both the correlated and uncorrelated case equally so you can confirm that in neither case the uncertainty of f(U,V) is root sum squared.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:13 pm

You didn’t do as asked. For Bevington 4.10 to 4.14 the restrictions are:

  1. All data points must be drawn from the same parent distribution.
  2. all data points have the same uncertainty characterized by the same standard deviation

Bevington says: “Each of the data points contributes to the determination of the mean uand therefore each data point contributes some uncertainty to the determination of the final results.

<ol><li>A histogram of the data points would follow the Gaussian shape, peaking at u and exhibiting a width corresponding to the standard deviation σ.
In the introduction to Chapter 3, it is specified that the measurements must be of the same thing with only “instrumental” (i.e. random) error.

Bevington goes on in Chapter 3 to specify that your U and V must have a functional relationship to x. He says:

“The uncertainty in the resulting value for x can be found by considering the spread of the values x resulting from combining the individual measurements u_i , v_i, … into individual results x_i.

You don’t seem to have met any of the requirements.

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 7, 2022 5:05 am

TG said: “Pick just one of the equations you mentioned”

I picked 3.14.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 2:39 pm

The ensemble mean has more objective skill in predicting the value at a specific point in time than any one member alone.”

You must be joking here. That’s like saying I’ll blindfold you and give you a bow and arrow then spin you around until you’re so dizzy you have no idea which way you are facing. Then you can start shooting arrows and expect the average shot to find the bullseye.

If you do happen to hit the bullseye, you’ll never know it plus it will be dumb luck. God only knows how many arrows it would take.

You can’t average wrong answers and hope that the average will give you the right answer. It is no more complicated than that.

It’s like expecting a group of monkeys at typewriters to recreate The Illiad and the Odyssey. Yeah, probability says it can happen, but I wouldn’t wait around for it to occur either.

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 3:32 pm

JG said: “You must be joking here. That’s like saying I’ll blindfold you and give you a bow and arrow then spin you around until you’re so dizzy you have no idea which way you are facing. Then you can start shooting arrows and expect the average shot to find the bullseye.”

I’m not joking. I’m very serious. And it’s not like that at all. GCMs do not make predictions without inputs.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 5:41 am

I’m not joking. I’m very serious. And it’s not like that at all. GCMs do not make predictions without inputs.”

You *have* to be joking. CGM’s do not use past temperatures as input. They have initial conditions as inputs and from there they use their parameterized constants and their differential equations to predict future temperatures. At least that is what the “climate scientists” claim.

And that is exactly what Jim is describing. Give you a bow and arrow plus a randomized, unknown direction as inputs and let you predict where the target is.

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 10:19 am

TG said: “CGM’s do not use past temperatures as input.”

Strawman. I didn’t say GCM’s use past temperatures. I said they don’t make predictions without inputs.

TG said: “And that is exactly what Jim is describing. Give you a bow and arrow plus a randomized, unknown direction as inputs and let you predict where the target is.”

Tropical cyclone track and intensity forecasts don’t work like that. They don’t randomly shot arrows towards a target. They input observations as initial conditions and then use a model to forecast the track and intensity. There are many different models used thus many different forecasts. Those forecasts are neither random nor done without inputs like what is being implied.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:32 pm

In other words they are data tracking devices projecting the future from the past. They have to be continually updated with new tracking data in order to project a new track. That’s no different than predicting the future of a stock by projecting past performance! I

And the hurricane tracking models aren’t even as accurate as many stock tracking models are!

And *you* think they are based solely on physics?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 4:43 am

No. The ensemble mean is not used to form the uncertainty envelop. The ensemble spread is used for that. Again…you have to use the right tool for the job.”

That’s my entire point. If the ensemble has a mean and that mean doesn’t accurately predict the actual path then of what use is the ensemble mean?

“You can view the forecast verification here. The 12 hour forecast error for Katrina was 24.5 nm. That is slightly better than the 2005 season average of 35 nm.”

They couldn’t get the landfall point correct an hour before it hit land? And you call that accurate?

“Notice that the ensemble forecasts are superior to individual forecasts for both track and intensity forecasts.”

An inaccurate forecast is an inaccurate forecast. It doesn’t matter if it is more accurate than others if it can’t even tell an hour before landfall where that landfall will occur!

“To provide the best expectation of a value.”

“That’s like saying you expect the next card in blackjack to be one of 52 cards!

It’s not a useful expectation!

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 10:28 am

TG said: “That’s my entire point. If the ensemble has a mean and that mean doesn’t accurately predict the actual path then of what use is the ensemble mean?”

It’s still the same answer as last time. It is the best expectation of the value. If you ask again I’ll give you the same answer again.

TG said: “They couldn’t get the landfall point correct an hour before it hit land? And you call that accurate?”

Strawman. I never said it was accurate especially with the implication that it was perfect. I said the error on the 12 hour forecast was 24.5 nm and that it is slightly better than the typical error at that lead time.

TG said: “An inaccurate forecast is an inaccurate forecast. It doesn’t matter if it is more accurate than others if it can’t even tell an hour before landfall where that landfall will occur!”

Can you define “inaccurate” and “accurate” objectively?

Can you provide a link to a tropical cyclone forecasting model that performs better than the TVCA or HCCA models?

Do you form conclusions and base decisions using the least or more accurate model?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 6:48 am

You can’t average wrong answers and hope that the average will give you the right answer.

Amazing that such an obvious thought escapes so many, isn’t it. 🙂

Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 10:19 am

You know, if at least some of the “projections” were below observations, you might make an argument about their veracity. As it is, there just isn’t anyway one can, with a straight face, say that an average will give a correct answer.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 10:31 am

And yet the ensemble mean from TVCA and HCCA consistently outperform individual models in tropical cyclone track and intensity skill.

I have a challenge for you Pat. Post a link to your model that forecasts tropical cyclone tracks and intensities and lets see which one is better…your model or TVCA.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 10:43 am

The challenge, bdgwz, is for you to figure out that updating engineering models to readjust observation-tracking is no measure of physical accuracy.

Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 11:41 am

I’ll bet he doesn’t have a clue about how much use is made of satellite tracking and high altitude plane information to adjust the forecasted track and computer programs.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 1:00 pm

I’m not the one challenging models here. I accept that the models NHC uses does a far better job than I ever could. I find it difficult just assessing the location of the MSLP min in realtime to within 50 nm especially when there is no eye. There’s no way I could forecast the track to within 31 nm, 60 nm, 96 nm, 140 nm, and 224 nm for 24, 48, 72, 96, and 120 hour lead times respectively like what the TVCA ensemble mean does.

Do you have a better model or not? Do you even have an alternative model?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:18 pm

It’s not up to us to come up with a better model. All we need to do is point out the problems with the existing ones!

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:49 pm

So you want the NHC to abandon models that make useful forecasts because they aren’t perfect?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 6:06 pm

No, but you also need to admit that the models are constantly updated with new path info from satellite and high altitude observations. One reason for preparing to evacuate from, say, Florida to North Carolina or even further north is because using the models only, that is as accurate as they can be. Don’t gauge the accuracy of models based on the last 25 miles to shore, do it when the storms are out to sea 500 miles.

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 7, 2022 5:03 am

Again, I’m not the one challenging the models, their limitations, or how they work. I’m just trying to explain to you the purpose of the ensemble mean. You challenged it in regards to tropical cyclone forecasts. I provided the actual skill of TVCA as compared to various individual models and showed you that the ensemble mean has better skill. That is the value of the ensemble mean. Do you want the NHC to stop using TVCA?

Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 2:40 pm

They are basically data tracking models projecting future performance from past performance, just like stock predication software. “Past performance is no guarantee of future results”!

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:50 pm

TG said: “They are basically data tracking models projecting future performance from past performance, just like stock predication software.”

Do you really think that’s how they work or are you frustrated and making off-the-cuff comments that you don’t actually believe?

Derg
Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 12:44 am

Settled science in 1990?

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 12:52 pm

““Because of other factors which influence climate, we would not expect the rise to be a steady one””

Yes, expect a cooling trend for several years to come, because the other and only major factor is the Sun.

CO2 has nothing to do with it.

bdgwx
Reply to  b.nice
April 3, 2022 1:27 pm

If the Sun is the only major factor then why did the Earth experience secular cooling for millions of years while the Sun continued to brightened? Why wasn’t the Earth in a perpetual snowball state in the past?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 1:39 pm

EXACTLY!

“The Sun is becoming increasingly hotter (or more luminous) with time. However, the rate of change is so slight we won’t notice anything even over many millennia, let alone a single human lifetime. . . . Astronomers estimate that the Sun’s luminosity will increase by about 6% every billion years.”
(ref: https://usm.maine.edu/planet/sun-getting-hotter-if-so-why-will-earth-eventually-become-too-hot-life )

So, in the last million years (which encompasses about ten glacial/interglacial cycles), the Sun’s luminosity has increased by about 6%/1000 = 0.006%, horror of horrors!

For comparison, the Sun’s luminosity varies by about 0.1% over a typical 11-year sunspot cycle, or about 17 times as much as the overall net luminosity increase occurring over that one million years.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 1:05 pm

By the way I notice that UAH has been warming at a rate of 0.34 °C / decade since November 2010, a period of 12 years and 5 months.

This period was determined using the Monckton non-cherrypicking technique of starting at the present and looking back to find the earliest date which would give me a trend greater than 0.34 °C / decade.

Derg
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 3:41 pm

You just aren’t getting your CO2 hockey stick

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 9:55 pm

You make clear you don’t understand how and WHY he made his chart……..

Reply to  Sunsettommy
April 4, 2022 7:34 am

I think I’ve made it clear over the years that I do know how the chart is made. I’ve reproduced them and predicted where the new pause date will be once the UAH data is published, before Monckton’s posts.

I’ve explained in excruciating detail how to determine the exact start date for the pause, and explained why other people don’t understand how it works.

If you disagree with my interpretation of what Monckton means when he says

As always, the Pause is calculated as the longest period ending in the present that shows no warming trend, taken as the least-squares linear-regression trend on the UAH satellite monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies for the lower troposphere:

tell me what it does mean, and show how you would get a different result.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 9:47 pm

Bellman does not know the data well, or at all. He is paid to peddle the climate Communist party line that has funded Vlad’s war. IPCC indeed predicted 1.8 K warming by 2030 compared with 1850 (there was practically no trend from 1750-1850). And the trend from 1850-1990 was indeed about 0.5 K (HadCRUT4), so IPCC were indeed predicting 1.3 K over 40 years, or 0.34 K/decade, of which little more than half is occurring, even on the generous assumption that all the warming of recent decades was anthropogenic.

And I do not expect the rise in global warming to be monotonic. However, it is striking that the great Pacific shift of 1976 and the two or three very large el Ninos since then appear to have had a more noticeable and decisive influence on global temperature than our sins of emission.

It would really be best if Bellman and other climate Communists realized that their misconduct has contributed materially to the enrichment of Russia and consequently to the expansion of its military forces, now being deployed to massacre women and children in Ukraine. Time to back off and be honest.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 6:41 am

He is paid to peddle the climate Communist party line that has funded Vlad’s war.

A grossly offensive ad hominem. I’d ask you again on what evidence you make that claim, but as we both know you have none as it’s not true.

I’ll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions as to what your incessant repetition of lie says about you and your arguments.

Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 11:37 am

A c/p he clicks in every month. With the same lack of proof, or even any indication of it.

Channeling Joe McCarthy with his [In my hands, I hold this list of communists….].

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  bigoilbob
April 4, 2022 12:21 pm

blob checks in, hooray!

paul courtney
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 4, 2022 3:33 pm

Mr. Carlo: bigoilbrandon has been very busy shutting down U.S. production, takes up alotta his “commenting” time.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  paul courtney
April 4, 2022 3:41 pm

righto—its a tough job but someone’s got to do it!

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 6:46 am

“…so IPCC were indeed predicting 1.3 K over 40 years, or 0.34 K/decade…”

And yet they failed to state that anywhere in the publication, instead stating a prediction of around 1°C by 2025.

Why do you think they did that? You keep insisting that this 1st report was made up to alarm people into taking action, yet you also insist they deliberately downplayed how much warming they were expecting. So why hide the 0.34K / decade warming rate in way that even you only noticed a few years ago? How was that meant to scare people into bringing about a new world order?

bdgwx
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 7:36 am

CMoB said: “IPCC indeed predicted 1.8 K warming by 2030 compared with 1850 (there was practically no trend from 1750-1850).”

Here is what IPCC FAR pg. xxiv actually says.

IPCC Business-as-Usual scenario; changes from pre-industrial: The numbers given below are based on high resolution models, scaled to be consistent with our best estimate of global mean warming of 1.8°C by 2030. For values consistent with other estimates of global temperature rise, the numbers below should be reduced by 30% for the low estimate or increased by 50% for the high estimate. Precipitation estimates are also scaled in a similar way. 

I posted the predictions from scenarios business-as-usual (A), B, C, and D down below. You can see for yourself that the IPCC did not predict 1.8 K of warming above the pre-industrial temperature by 2030 for the emission scenario that humans choose. Instead they predicted about 0.6 C from 1990 to 2020 of which about 0.6 C was observed.

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 8:14 am

Europe will wait a long time for a real spring, due to the polar vortex pattern in the lower stratosphere. Interestingly, an increase in the strength of the solar wind will cause this pattern to perpetuate.comment imagecomment image

Dave Fair
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 10:13 am

Like Napoleon and Hitler, Putin’s retreat will be a cold one.

Derg
Reply to  Dave Fair
April 3, 2022 1:10 pm

Where is he retreating?

Dave Fair
Reply to  Derg
April 3, 2022 1:54 pm

Derg, how does one misunderstand “will be.”

April 3, 2022 8:19 am

I see that I now need to update a comment I made just two days ago under a separate article https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/04/01/co2-emissions-are-at-an-all-time-high-un-admits-they-are-losing/ .

I do believe it bears repeating, with the noted updates:

Just four weeks ago today, Christopher Monckton posted an article on WUWT with the title The Pause Lengthens Again: No Global Warming for 7 Years 5 6 Months . . .
Moreover, Lord Monckton has this very apropos statement:
“The entire UAH record since December 1978 shows warming at 0.134 K decade–1, near-identical to the 0.138 K decade–1 since 1990, indicating very little of the acceleration that would occur if the ever-increasing global CO2 concentration and consequent anthropogenic forcing were exercising more than a small, harmless and net-beneficial effect.” . . .
To be as clear as I can about this: NONE of the IPCC-supported climate models predicted the 7+ year pause in global warming that Earth has been experiencing.

And yes, I agree completely with Lord Monckton’s comment about this simple data-based climate fact being “one of the best-kept secrets in what passes for ‘journalism’ these days”

It will be fascinating to see how the IPCC addresses (errr, more likely just overlooks) this fact in its next Assessment Report (AR7).

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 8:53 am

To be as clear as I can about this: NONE of the IPCC-supported climate models predicted the 7+ year pause in global warming that Earth has been experiencing.”

+1

Richard M
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 9:09 am

It’s useful to look at the temperature data separated by the PDO switch in 2014.

https://woodfortrees.org/plot/uah6/from:1997/to/plot/uah6/from:1997/to:2014/trend/plot/uah6/from:2015/to/trend

Both pauses stand out clearly. The only warming over the past 25 years occurred during the year the PDO switched from cool to warm mode.

2013-07  -0.6705
2013-08  -0.4534
2013-09  -0.2639
2013-10  -1.1277
2013-11  -0.5181
2013-12  -0.7854
2014-01  -0.0030
2014-02   0.0712
2014-03   0.8634
2014-04   0.9515
2014-05   1.7189
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 12:03 pm

Do you recall how NOAA and NASA, along with RSS, quickly and easily eliminated the long recorded pause in temperature increases just in time for the Paris meet?

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 2:46 pm

Gordon A. Dessler: “To be as clear as I can about this: NONE of the IPCC-supported climate models predicted the 7+ year pause in global warming that Earth has been experiencing.”

I downloaded the CMIP5 data from KNMI. Between 1979 and 2021 the members predicted that about 20% of the months would be included in a Monkton Pause lasting 7 years and 5 months. UAH showed about 25% such months. It’s not a perfect prediction, but it’s pretty good and decisively shows that IPCC-supported models predict lengthy pauses like the current one.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 3:16 pm

Ummm . . . 20 to 25% “of the months being included in a Monckton Pause lasting 7 years and 5 months” is NOT the same as stating that any of the CMIP5 models (as compared to data from either KNMI or UAH) predicted there would be 7 years and 5 months of consecutive zero change.

Yes, it’s nothing at all like a perfect prediction . . . or even a “pretty good” one when examined carefully and objectively.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 4:58 pm

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I used the EXACT same analysis technique on all of the CMIP5 members that CMoB used for UAH. My statement is of a *consecutive* zero change 7yr 5mon period. Don’t take my word for it. I encourage you and everyone else to download the data and prove this for your self.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 8:04 pm

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I am looking for any one of the CMIP5 members (i.e., climate models) to have predicted that the most recent 7 year 6 month period—from October 1, 2014 thru end-March 2022—would have essentially unchanging global-average tropical middle troposphere temperatures for that specific interval and only for that specific interval.

Such is not seen in the individual graphs of CMIP5 predictions (up to year 2019) as plotted in Figure 2 of https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/11/climate-model-democracy/

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 3, 2022 8:22 pm

I’d have to go back through and check. But even if a single member did that wouldn’t be useful since all the others didn’t. Remember CMIP5 models are not skillful enough to predict specific variations. They are only able to predict that variations like ENSO swings and the Monckton pauses are expected. They just aren’t useful in telling us exactly when they will occur. Part of that is due to the limitations in modeling and part is due to them being ran for a specific scenario that may differ significantly from the scenario that actually played out.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 8:51 pm

Hmmm . . . given all the caveats you list for the CMIP5 models, do you not find it disturbingly strange that the IPCC invests so much time and effort into them, and puts out so much propaganda based on them?

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 6:03 am

I’m no more or less disturbed with resources spent on CMIP5 than I am for resources spent researching the standard model of physics which we know is not perfect either. I can say the same thing for most other models in the various disciplines of science as well.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 8:21 am

Seriously, you are equating the importance of CMIP-x modeling with the importance of understanding the physics that explains the universe and all that is in it?

Seriously???

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 8:34 am

Yes, this is what he does. He has posted this drivel previously. He also has some odd and esoteric ideas about heat transfer.

bdgwx
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 4, 2022 9:09 am

The 0LOT, 1LOT, 2LOT, 3LOT, Planck’s Law, Wein’s Displacement Law, Stefan-Boltzmann Law, Kirchhoff’s Law of Radiation, etc. are not odd and esoteric nor are they my ideas. I do refer to them quite frequently though.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 9:00 am

I’m not making a comparison based on importance. I’m making a comparison based on effort and imperfection because you asked if me if the caveats (imperfections) of CMIP5 relative to the resources (effort) put into it is disturbing. All I am doing is defending the consistency of my position here by pointing out that I am not disturbed by the effort put into any model developed by science and which we know are not perfect either. This includes CMIP5, the standard model, and countless other imperfect models of reality. In fact, I’ll go one further and say that I support the development of all of these models and wish humanity would allocate more resources to the effort; not less. I am very passionate about the pursuit of science.

Geoff Sherrington
April 3, 2022 8:20 am

Nine years and 8 months of no global warming for Australia, 116 months.
http://www.geoffstuff.com/uah_australia_to_april_2022.jpg

Thomas
Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
April 3, 2022 11:23 am

Ten years and elven months for the USA, according to the Climate Reference Network, which is a network of state-of-the-art weather sensors located in pristine locations around the 48 stages and Alaska and Hawaii.

USCRN.png
ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 8:32 am

So, are comments with more than one link being blocked?

(When there are three or more links in a comment it goes to the moderator bin awaiting moderator action for approval there are none of yours in the bin at all) SUNMOD

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 11:33 am

I think the trigger is three. As in, “Three strikes you’re out!”

ResourceGuy
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 8:48 am
ResourceGuy
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 8:48 am
ResourceGuy
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 8:52 am

The original comment reflected on the UN need to rattle the bones harder to overcome the declines in the oceans, the sky, and the Climate Crusades.

Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 3, 2022 9:22 am

But then again, you repeat yourself.

Reference your post above at April 3, 2022 7:45 am.

There is benefit to be had in the virtue of patience.

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 8:33 am

The “break” will last.comment image

Tom.1
April 3, 2022 8:39 am

To what extent, if anyone knows, are these pauses governed by the intermittent El Nino spikes?

Richard M
Reply to  Tom.1
April 3, 2022 9:17 am

As I showed above, the pauses are separated by the PDO switch in 2014. Both pauses were/are slow cooling periods. The +AMO keeps the PDO effect minimal. That is likely to change when the AMO finally goes negative in a few years.

Tom.1
April 3, 2022 8:43 am

Another question I have about the El Ninos is whether its long term effect on the earth’s heat balance is neutral; seems like it should be.

Reply to  Tom.1
April 3, 2022 11:18 am

ENSO is simply tropical Pacific SST, for some arbitrary longitudes. Similar indices can be defined for other oceans (Atlantic, Indian) and longitudes. They will all show similar oscillatory patterns and trends, which should correlate with the global and other regional SST. It’s just that the variability and trends are stronger closer to the poles, and weaker closer to the equator.
So, various ENSO indices do correlate with the global temperature indices.

Reply to  Edim
April 3, 2022 11:33 am

comment image

Reply to  Edim
April 3, 2022 1:11 pm

“Global temperature trends from 1901 to 2017” looks like recovery from the ‘Little Ice Age’.
Nor should it be overlooked that Holocene temperatures are declining long term.

“Global temperature trends from 1988 to 2017” looks like NOAA infilled, adjusted, using temperatures from up to 1,200km away as reference, homogenized, smoothed and biased to reinforce their climate agenda.

Reply to  Tom.1
April 3, 2022 1:05 pm

The 1998 and 2015/16 El Nino were particularly strong and were not balanced by strong La Nina.

The current continuing La Nina is starting to balance things out, and we should see the temperature gradually drop as they continue to be the more dominant index over the next several years.

April 3, 2022 8:50 am

I was in Iceland recently on a tour. The glaciers there are really retreating,esp. the “tongue” glaciers that ooze out of the main glacier mass. Global warming of course is to blame. I went to the website for the icelandic MET.
I just graphed date from weather stations in Reykjavik, the capitol, and Hael, a rural inland area. Hael seems to have stopped recording 10 years ago, but that doesn’t change the interpretation.
Things are getting bad. It is as hot there now as it was in 1940.

IcelandTemperatues.png
Reply to  Joel
April 3, 2022 10:35 am

Major bummer for those guys. Maybe they can all move to North Greenland.

Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
April 3, 2022 4:26 pm

We flew back from Iceland to D.C. across the southern tip of Iceland. It was completely ice and snow, March 7th. I can’t attach a jpg on this comment, apparently, but it had zero terrain not covered by ice or know. Rivers frozen. Icebergs all over the eastern coast.

Derg
Reply to  Joel
April 3, 2022 1:14 pm

As bad as 1940?

Climate scientists will need some adjusting as we can’t approach things that happened that far in the past.

MarkW
Reply to  Derg
April 3, 2022 4:37 pm

Hasn’t griff been assuring us that history began in 1979?

Tom
April 3, 2022 8:53 am

It must be noted that the HadCRUT4 data itself should be suspected. Many remember that the Depression heat waves in the ’30s resulted in thermometer readings that were not exceeded until at least the 90s, and maybe not at all. They were certainly higher than those in the ’40s as shown in the chart. The difference must be in the ‘homogenization’ of the data, which certainly makes it suspect in my opinion. If I can’t believe some of the data, I can’t believe any of it.

bdgwx
Reply to  Tom
April 3, 2022 12:28 pm

Here is what the global average temperature looks like with both raw (blue) and adjusted (red) timeseries included. [1].

comment image

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 12:49 pm

What a load of horse shit

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
April 3, 2022 3:34 pm

He never tires of showing off this gar-bage.

Derg
Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 1:14 pm

Hockey stick away

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 5:01 pm

As Pat said…A load of horseshit.
Look at the 1958 to 2001 period with actual lower trop measurements instead of the highly corrupted crap you keep posting.
During that time, co2 increased by around 50ppm

radiosonde.JPG
bdgwx
Reply to  Mike
April 3, 2022 5:21 pm

That’s HadAT2 which can be downloaded here. From 1979/01 to 2012/12 the warming trend from UAH is +0.113 C/decade and from HadAT2 is +0.157 C/decade. It might be interesting to know that RSS is +0.194 C/decade. Technically RSS is a better match to HadAT2 than UAH at least according to the data you present here. That warming rate is HIGHER than the warming rate shown in the graph I posted so I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 6:42 pm

”I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.”
That it does not show 2001 as being <> 0.3 C higher that 1960 as yours does. In other words, there is no hockey stick rise. It’s made up.

bdgwx
Reply to  Mike
April 3, 2022 7:02 pm

Mike said: “That it does not show 2001 as being <> 0.3 C higher that 1960 as yours does.”

Yes, it does. Taking the 850mb height (the closest to the surface available).

1960: -0.1 C
2001: +0.3 C

That is a difference of +0.4 C.

BTW…here is the link. I forgot to include it above.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 12:29 pm

Hey, thanks for the graph, bdgwx!

It clearly shows a decline/”hiatus” in global average temperature trend from about 1942 to about 1978, a continuous interval of some 36 years which is long enough to meet NOAA’s and NASA’s definition of “climate”.

I await your reason for why atmospheric CO2 decided to just stop being the “control knob” (aka predominate forcing) for global warming during this time. Maybe it just got tired?

One thing we do know for sure . . . this interval convinced a lot of scientists at the time that Earth was facing hundreds of years of future global cooling, perhaps even a coming “ice age”.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 12:44 pm

GD said: “I await your reason for why atmospheric CO2 decided to just stop being the “control knob””

The abundance of evidence does not suggest that CO2 is the control knob. It is only a control knob. There are many factors that modulate the global average temperature. CO2 is but one among many. CO2 has never stopped being a control knob.

GD said: “Maybe it just got tired?”

Hardly. The laws of physics don’t work like that. What happens is that different factors have different magnitudes that change through time. It just so happens that aerosol forcing increased significantly from 1945 to 1980. The increase was so significant that the negative forcing actually more than offset the increase in positive forcing from CO2.

comment image

GD said: “One thing we do know for sure . . . this interval convinced a lot of scientists at the time that Earth was facing hundreds of years of future global cooling, perhaps even a coming “ice age”.”

Yeah, there were certainly some scientists like Reid Bryson who thought aerosol forcing would continue to dominate over GHG forcing. But I don’t know if I would consider it to a lot of scientists [1].

Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 3:13 pm

So you are a sceptic about all the unreliable unrenewable energy being installed to limit CO2? Why is climate science not searching for the dominant factor is temperature increase? Maybe CO2 is considered the main control knob?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 4:19 pm

Global cooling was the meme-du-jour from the early 1970’s through the early ’80s.

For a real laugh, the “climate change” craziness at that time even went so far as to produce the alarmist video In Search of the Coming Ice Age (1978), featuring Leonard Nimoy, the actor then well-known for having played the role of Mr. Spock in the original TV series Star Trek.

For real hoot, you can revisit that 22 minute-long video at this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tAYXQPWdC0

Funny thing is that video talks about a lot of scientists.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 6:00 am

Is Leonard Nimoy’s in search of series regarded as an authoritative science program?

From the list of episodes it seems like a typical 70s TV scientific woo. In search of UFOs, Atlantis, Ancient Astronauts etc.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 7:18 am

I guess you completely missed the fact that Nimoy was referring to the work and stated conclusions of scientists (including their published papers) of his time.

But your comment invites me to ask you, in turn: “Is the PBS NOVA series on TV/on-line regarded as an authoritative science program? After all, NOVA presented a program on UFOs Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQoKcK1hvF4 ).

🙂

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 9:37 am

No idea, never seen NOVA. My general opinion of most TV science programs isn’t very good.

I’m sure they did talk to experts, just as they would for all the other programs. But did they talk to any scientist who disagreed we were heading for an ice age? Did they mention those who believed we were more likely to see warming due to growing greenhouse gasses?

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 10:36 am

Now watched it, and not impressed. Lots of some scientists say something could happen at some unspecified period in the future. Only concrete figure give is when they talk about the drop in temperature in one location and say if it continued at that rate we could see an ice age within the next 200 years.

All this is juxtaposed with scenes from the cold winter in the USA and talk about what would happen if we had an ice age, all with lots of sinister sci-fi music. But nowhere is there a scientist making any real prediction. The closest is one talking about ice ages being caused by changes in earths orbit, who says that this means we may already be heading into the next ice age, but again with no time frame mentioned.

The few seconds of Stephen Schneider at the end seem reveling. First he says we should be cautious about doing anything to stop an ice age as the cure may be worse than the problem. Then he finishes up talking about the danger climate change (no mention of warming or cooling).

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 10:42 am

Looking at the time line of Schneider, 4 years before this program he’d retracted his previous paper predicting cooling. I think by the time of this program he was warning both about the dangers of warming and cooling.

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 7:21 am

“. . . all with lots of sinister sci-fi music.”

I’m still ROTFLMAO over that comment!

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 10:47 am

Did Spock present his research for publication and peer review?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 5:51 pm

In case you missed this obvious fact, “Spock” was a paid actor/narrator for the referenced video clip.

There is no reason whatsoever to assert that he was a “climate scientist” or needed to have have authored “research publications”—let alone those being peer reviewed—in order to be hired for such service.

Your attempt at deflection/ad hominem attack is, consequently, a big FAIL.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 6, 2022 7:29 am

My point is that I do not get my science from paid actors and the media. I get my science from peer reviewed published research.

And I’m not the one who brought up Spock in this conversation. That was you.

And I’ve never resorted to ad-hominem attacks or personal attacks of any kind.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:28 pm

Yet you post: And I’ve never resorted to ad-hominem attacks or personal attacks of any kind.” just a day after posting Did Spock present his research for publication and peer review?

A rose by any other name . . .

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 6, 2022 3:43 pm

I’m not the one that brought Spock into the discussion. And I’m certainly not attacking him. I like Leonard Nimoy and I especially the character he plays in Star Trek. I’m a Star Trek fan myself. I’ve watched it my whole life. But I’m not going to get my science from him.

not-a-redneck
Reply to  bdgwx
April 9, 2022 10:02 am

“But I’m not going to get my science from him (Spock)”
Good idea – that definitely wouldn’t be logical Captain…

Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 4:34 pm

You posted: “There are many factors that modulate the global average temperature. CO2 is but one among many.”

Really? Then why the absolute paranoia by the UN-IPCC, the current US President, and so very many bureaucrats (AOC, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders to mention just a few) to limit mankind’s emissions of CO2 by limiting the use of fossil fuels?

Oh, and if anyone actually believes the reason that global warming ceased from 1942 thru 1978 was due to aerosol emissions from humans, they should publish a paper on this ASAP, for it will certainly be in the top runners for a Noble Prize . . . offering all of mankind, as it were, the most straightforward solution to ending global warming while still allowing the use of fossil fuels.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 5:19 pm

I have no idea why people are paranoid. I’m just saying the evidence unequivocally says that far more than just CO2 modulates the UAH TLT temperature.

They did publish their findings regarding aerosols. That’s how we know aerosols are a significant factor. It’s nothing new or shocking. It has been known for decades. And yes, we can mitigate global warming by pumping more aerosols into the atmosphere.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 5:39 am

If you truly believe that, then you must also admit that the IPCC and other organizations that promote an existential risk with only rising CO2 levels are full of balogna.

You must also explain how much of a factor that CO2 is. You keep arguing that those of us who show that temperatures have been maladjusted to show that CO2 levels are causing the rise in temperature have it wrong.

You can’t support both sides. It is one or the other. Either CO2 is causing an existential threat to mankind in the form of higher temperatures or it is not. Your choice?

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 7:19 am

Can you tell me the report, section, and page number where the IPCC says “CO2 is causing an existential threat to mankind”?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 7:45 am

The scenarios used in the IPCC report are based mostly on all GHGs other than CO2 going down (e.g. NO2, SO2, and CO) going *down* in the future. CO2 is the only one shown as going up. Conclusion, the IPCC sees CO2 as the control knob and that is what gets fed into the climate models.

See: Rafaj P, Rao S, Klimont Z, Kolp P, Schöpp W (2010) Emissions of air pollutants implied by global long-term energy scenarios, IIASA Interim Report, IR-10-019. IIASA, Laxenburg, 32

Example results are provided for the “middle-of-the-road” B2 baseline scenario. Under the B2 scenario global emissions of sulfur, nitrogen oxides and carbon monoxide decline continuously between 2000 and 2100, “

bdgwx
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 9:54 am

Which report, section, and page from the IPCC are you looking at?

I looked at Rafaj et al. 2010. I don’t see anywhere that CO2 is described as “an existential threat to mankind”.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 10:34 am

Where do you think the following references obtained their information?

Climate change has given rise to many existential threats, including a rise in global temperatures, melting of glaciers and polar ice caps, increment in sea level, loss of biodiversity, extreme weather events, and an outbreak of uncountable diseases.”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128229286000058

The 2018 IPCC report also galvanized many scientists and activists and prompted the spread of newly dire terminology, including climate crisisclimate emergency, and climate breakdown. Two other terms, both famously employed by United Nations secretary general António Guterres, have also gained currency: existential threat (2018) and Code Red for humanity (2021).”

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021/11/emergency-crisis-existential-threat-the-evolving-lingo-of-climate-change/

“Defense Secretary Calls Climate Change an Existential Threat”

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2582051/defense-secretary-calls-climate-change-an-existential-threat/

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 12:35 pm

The first reference is from Kumar, Nagar, and Anand.

The second reference is from Bob Henson.

The third reference is from Lloyd Austin.

I’ll ask the question again…which report, section, and page from the IPCC are you looking at?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:05 pm

Since bdgwx asked:

The IPCC clearly associates increasing global warming (aka “climate change”) with increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration, and in turn they clearly warn that “climate change” is leading to an ever increasing rise in global sea level.

So, in the IPCC’s Climate Change 2022, Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability: Summary for Policymakers on Page 17, Paragraph B.4.5, there are these verbatim statements (my underlining emphasis added):
“Climate change risks to cities, settlements and key infrastructure will rise rapidly in the mid- and long-term with further global warming, especially in places already exposed to high temperatures, along coastlines, or with high vulnerabilities (high confidence). . . . Sea level rise poses an existential threat for some Small Islands and some low-lying
coasts (medium confidence).”

Similarly, in the IPCC’s October 2021 WGII Sixth Assessment Report, Technical Summary, Final Draft there is this verbatim statement on Page TS-68, Paragraph TS.D.7.1 (my underlining emphasis added):
“As the scale and pace of sea-level rise accelerates beyond 2050, long-term adjustments may in some locations be beyond the limits of current adaptation options, and for some species and some locations could be an existential risk within the 21st century (medium confidence).”

Finally, in the IPCC’s AR6 WGII Final Draft Full Report titled Climate Change 2022 Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability (3676 pages long including its own Summary for Policymakers) there are these verbatim statements (my underlining emphasis added):

Page 4-128, Paragraph 4.7.4 Limits to Adaptation and Loss and Damage: “Taking action towards adaptation critically determines the outcomes and impacts of climate change processes across space and time. Where efforts to reduce risk do not effectively occur, losses and damages occur as a consequence of climate change, some of which can have irreversible and existential effects . . .”

Page 8-47, Paragraph 8.3.4.2 Non-economic (e.g., mobility, wellbeing): Climate change loss and damage presents an existential threat to some (Boyd et al., 2017). 

Page 9-17, Paragraph 9.1.6 Loss and Damage from Climate Change: “Assessment of impacts, vulnerability, risks and adaptation highlights climate change is leading to irreversible and existential impacts across Africa which breach current and projected adaptation limits (Table 9.1)”

Page 14-77, Paragraph 14.6.3 Cumulative risk, tipping points, thresholds and limits: “Under low mitigation scenarios, compounding risks and higher carbon emission scenarios increase the potential that amplifying feedback loops and fatal synergies across sectors could lead to existential threats to the socio-ecological systems of North America (medium confidence).”

Page 17-33, subparagraph titled “The existential dimension”:
“There has been less and often implicit discussion on the existential dimension of climate-related risk as pertaining to L&D (medium confidence).McNamara and Jackson (2019) infer an existential dimension from notions of inevitability and irreversibility associated with migration and relocation of communities (Eckersley, 2015; Mayer, 2017; McNamara et al., 2018), socio-cultural impacts linked to glacial retreat (Jurt et al., 2015), as well as adverse psychological and intersubjective effects (Herington, 2017; Adams et al., 2021). Many SIDS in their NDCs refer to sea level rise in particular posing existential threats, and call for enhanced international support for L&D (Thomas and Benjamin, 2017).”

Page CCP2-25, under paragraph FAQ CCP2.1: “For open coasts, settlements on low-lying small island states and the Arctic are especially vulnerable to climate change, and sea level rise impacts in particular, well before 2100. While the economic risks may not compare to the scale of those faced in coastal megacities with high per capita GDP, the existential risks to some nations and an array of distinctive livelihoods, cultural heritage, and ways-of-life in these settlements are great, even with modest sea level rise.”

BTW, for anyone wanting to verify the veracity of my above-quoted text extracts, the first two documents noted above are available as no-cost PDF downloads at https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg2/
and the last document, the full AR6 report, is available as a no-cost PDF download at https://report.ipcc.ch/ar6wg2/pdf/IPCC_AR6_WGII_FinalDraft_FullReport.pdf

Do the above meet bdgwx’s request to show where the IPCC states specifically “CO2 is causing an existential threat to mankind”? Obviously, no, not directly. Can they be taken en masse by any reasoning person to meet the intent of that statement? Yes, with specific reference to report, section, and page number, as requested.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 6, 2022 3:37 pm

That’s my point. The IPCC does not say that humanity is going to cease to exist. There’s already enough alarmism to go around so why exaggerate? Why not just say the IPCC says sea level rise is an existential threat to low lying islands, nations, cultures, socio-economic systems, etc instead of extrapolating out to humanity will cease to exist?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 6:32 pm

“The IPCC does not say that humanity is going to cease to exist.”

Hey, everybody, let’s jump on the bdgwx merry-go-round and just forget about what the word “existential” means. Gotta cycle back to that starting point, don’t ya know! 

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 7, 2022 4:59 am

Can you show me where the IPCC thinks humanity will cease to exist before 2100?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 5:30 am

I showed you this.

“The 2018 IPCC report also galvanized many scientists and activists and prompted the spread of newly dire terminology, including climate crisisclimate emergency, and climate breakdown. Two other terms, both famously employed by United Nations secretary general António Guterres, have also gained currency: existential threat (2018) and Code Red for humanity (2021).”

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021/11/emergency-crisis-existential-threat-the-evolving-lingo-of-climate-change/

The IPCC is an organization within the United Nations. From the IPCC’s web page:

“The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is the United Nations body for assessing the science related to climate change.”

https://www.ipcc.ch/about/

If the United Nations Secretary General uses the term “existential threat”, then that is also the IPCC speaking through him.

Show us where the IPCC has spoken out against the use of the term “existential threat”. In today’s world of instant communications, if you don’t speak out against using that term, then you are tacitly approving it use.

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 7, 2022 8:23 am

That quote is from Bob Henson; not the IPCC.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 12:22 pm

You need to increase your reading skills a bit.

“Two other terms, both famously employed by United Nations secretary general António Guterres, have also gained currency: existential threat (2018) and Code Red for humanity (2021).”

From: https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/09/1018852

“‘Direct existential threat’ of climate change nears point of no return, warns UN chief”

From: https://sdg.iisd.org/news/un-secretary-general-urges-leadership-to-face-direct-existential-threat-of-climate-change/

Speaking at UN Headquaters, Guterres said that “we face a direct existential threat” as “climate change is moving faster than we are,” and the world risks crossing “the point of no return” on climate change, with disastrous consequences for people across the planet and the natural systems that sustain them.”

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 7, 2022 8:46 am

Jim Gorman,

Excellent post!

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 8:23 am

Quite easily, thanks for asking, AGAIN.

Please start by consulting my extensive post above dated April 6, 2022 2:05 pm wherein I provided specific quotes for IPCC publications, per you earlier posted request for such.

Note that I posted the following verbatim extract from the IPCC’s AR6 WGII Final Draft Full Report titled Climate Change 2022 Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability, Page 4-128, Paragraph 4.7.4 Limits to Adaptation and Loss and Damage (my underlining emphasis added):
“Taking action towards adaptation critically determines the outcomes and impacts of climate change processes across space and time. Where efforts to reduce risk do not effectively occur, losses and damages occur as a consequence of climate change, some of which can have irreversible and existential effects . . .

Now, the IPCC has long maintained the world is NOT making effective efforts to reduce risk of “climate change”. In addition, this specific statement extracted from the noted IPCC report does not limit itself to any one region of Earth or to any specific time. One can thus logically conclude the IPCC is stating that climate change represents an existential threat to humanity over some unspecified time in the future.

And, sorry, I will not entertain debate over your recent modification of your original posted request (April 6, 2022 7:19 am to Jim Gorman):
“Can you tell me the report, section, and page number where the IPCC says ‘CO2 is causing an existential threat to mankind’ “?
to now be limited to “before 2100”. Where did that come from?

QED
 

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 7, 2022 11:44 am

That is not a logical conclusion. Just because low lying islands, cultures, nations, etc. may cease to exists does not mean that humans will cease to exist. That kind of extrapolation is alarmist.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 12:08 pm

That is not a logical conclusion . . . please show me an example of where humans (aka humanity) exists over time outside of “nations”, notwistanding the fact that national boundaries may be in dispute.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 8:40 am

“Why not just say the IPCC says sea level rise is an existential threat to low lying islands, nations, cultures, socio-economic systems, etc instead of extrapolating out to humanity will cease to exist?”

Because the verbatim extracts from IPCC reports that I summarized in my above post state that existential threats (to humanity) exists:
— from “climate change”, which is not limited to sea level rise
“across Africa”, the preponderance of area of which would not be affected by sea level rise
“to the socio-ecological systems of North America“, the preponderance of which would not be affected by sea level rise
— for “the Arctic”, which I take to mean all land, floating sea ice, and open ocean water within the Arctic Circle, much of which would not be affected by sea level rise.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 7, 2022 11:46 am

Gordon Dressler said: “Because the verbatim extracts from IPCC reports that I summarized in my above post state that existential threats (to humanity) exists:”

Where does the IPCC say that humans will cease to exist?

I’m not asking about existential threats to islands, cultures, nations, etc. I’m asking about the existential threat to humanity itself.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 12:04 pm

Due to the word games you insist on playing, it’s hopeless.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 12:43 pm

From the transcript of a speech by the Secretary General at; https://www.un.org/press/en/2022/sgsm21115.doc.htm

“Insufficient action on the existential climate threat. ”

Please note it does not say just in a few places.

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 6, 2022 5:15 pm

Love it! Would politicians and media be hyping “existential” risk if the IPCC didn’t support it?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 12:01 pm

Publishing “findings regarding aerosols” is far different from proving aerosols were the factor overriding the claim that CO2 is the predominate “control knob” controlling global warming (as advanced by the IPCC and others).

Beyond this, AFAIK, no reputable scientist has published, at any time within the last seven years, an article or scientific paper asserting that anthropogenic emissions of aerosols has been the cause for the 7 years 6 months, currently on-going, pause in global warming, as documented by Christopher Monkton in his article above.

During these last 7 years 6 month, there is no question that there have been significant increases in global anthropogenic greenhouse gases, as clearly illustrated in the graph presented at
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/04/06/reality-cannot-penetrate-into-the-fantasy-world-of-climate-campaigners/ .

So, since we can effectively rule out anthropogenic emissions of aerosols as the cause of the current pause in global warming, there must be another, yet-to-be-defined “control knob” that can override the asserted CO2 “control knob”.

Either that, or any claim that CO2 is the “control knob” (i.e., the predominate forcing factor) determining global warming is just a blivet*.

*Specifically, I refer here to the very first definition for “blivet” as given at this website: https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/blivet

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 6, 2022 12:41 pm

GD said: “there must be another, yet-to-be-defined “control knob” that can override the asserted CO2 “control knob”.”

That’s what I’m trying to say. There are lots of control knobs that can more than offset the CO2 control knob especially on the shorter monthly and yearly timescales. This is why there is a lot of variation on those timescales with many ups, downs, and pauses even though the long term trend is upward.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:12 pm

How about offering us a more complete listing of those “control knobs” that you assert can override CO2 as forcing factors for global warming?

So far the list is:
— aerosols (well, at least for 1942 thru 1978)

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 6, 2022 3:29 pm

Not override. Offset. The existence of another factor does not turn off the others. ENSO would be another huge factor that can easily more than offset CO2 forcing on the UAH TLT layer on monthly and yearly timescales. Even at 1 C per W/m2 the CO2 forcing contributes only 0.003 C/month. El Nino and La Nina alone can contribute more than +0.5 C and -0.5 C respectively. That easily dwarfs the CO2 contribution on monthly time scales.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:38 pm

Then why isn’t the IPCC and the rest of the climate clique focusing on those other control knobs? They would seem to be more important than CO2. And why does the IPCC scenarios say that so many of these “other factors” are decreasing and will continue to decrease? Is their decrease not going to continue overriding CO2 impacts if they are doing such an override today?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 7:31 pm

Excellent questions . . . but don’t expect answers from bdgwx.

I’m still waiting for his listing of all control knobs he asserts can override offset the predominate CO2 control knob as asserted by the UN-IPCC, the current US President, and so very many bureaucrats (AOC, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders, to mention just a few).

So far, he has only offered up the ENSO as an overriding offsetting control knob, but without providing any data that shows either phase of a ENSO correlates with dips or pauses in global warming since 1980.

The problem with the ENSO override offset is:
“El Niño and La Niña are opposite phases of a natural climate pattern across the tropical Pacific Ocean that swings back and forth every 3-7 years on average. Together, they are called ENSO (pronounced “en-so”), which is short for El Niño-Southern Oscillation”
(ref: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/el-ni%C3%B1o-and-la-ni%C3%B1a-frequently-asked-questions ; my bold emphasis added)

So is it the El Niño phase or the La Niña phase that overrode offset global warming for the last 7 years 6 months? . . . or was it instead an all together different, yet-to-declared-by-bdgwx “control knob”?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

bdgwx
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 7, 2022 4:57 am

GD said: “So far, he has only offered up the ENSO as an overriding offsetting control knob”

I’m certainly not knowledge enough to provide a complete list. I can only offer up those that I know. They would include all latent fluxes, sensible fluxes, and radiation fluxes. Each of those have numerous process that work on monthly timescales. Examples might include advective process, convective process, Rossby waves, ENSO phases, PDO phases, AMO phases, NAO phases, tropical cyclone activity, dust, wildfire activity, volcanic activity, biosphere activity, and the list goes on and on.

GD said: ” but without providing any data that shows either phase of a ENSO”

You can see the ENSO phases via the MEI or ONI which you can correlate with UAH TLT.

GD said: “So is it the El Niño phase or the La Niña phase that overrode offset global warming for the last 7 years 6 months?”

They both modulate UAH TLT. El Nino increases the heat flux from the ocean to the atmosphere. La Nina decreases the heat flux from the ocean to the atmosphere.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 7, 2022 5:35 am

You are dancing around the main issue. Does the IPCC and climate scientists coalesce around the fact that CO2 is the control knob for temperature growth and the need for eliminating human emissions of CO2?

You are trying to fence sit. We are at the tipping point where you must choose because of the existential risk to Western economies from net zero.

Do you believe the IPCC and climate science consensus concerning CO2 emissions or not ?

bdgwx
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 7, 2022 8:21 am

JG said: “You are dancing around the main issue. Does the IPCC and climate scientists coalesce around the fact that CO2 is the control knob for temperature growth and the need for eliminating human emissions of CO2?”

No. They say it is a control knob. They do also say that post WWII it is the control knob with the highest positive forcing while aerosols have the highest negative forcing on a decadal timescale.

JG said: “Do you believe the IPCC and climate science consensus concerning CO2 emissions or not?”

As of right now…yes.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 8:20 am

Here’s what the global air temperature looked like as GISS temporal-connections adjusted past temperatures.

1978 T-Surf Miles vs GISS.jpg
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom
April 3, 2022 6:47 pm

“It must be noted that the HadCRUT4 data itself should be suspected.”

Yes, that definitely should be noted every time it is used.

HadCRUT4 is science fiction.

Comparing something to HadCRUT4 or any of the other bogus, bastardized computer-generated “temperature” records is a waste of time and money.

If the temperature chart doesn’t show the Early Twentieth Century to be just as warm as it is today, then it is a bogus, bastardized, computer-generated, instrument-era Hockey Stick chart. They are worthless to good climate science. They are worth a lot to climate change charlatans.

People need to be reminded that they are looking at a lie.

April 3, 2022 8:58 am

Still, a few more years before the climate establishment starts to get worried.

Oh I’m sorry, did I say worried? I meant “relieved, because they’re literally not just pretending about the threat posed by global warming, and hold their own credibility and employability as but trinkets next to the very welfare of the race of man.”

As the temperature activist Andy Skuce once remarked to me, it’s not as if anyone sane wants The Science™ to be true! My droll ingratitude to him for vouchsafing such wisdom is something I’ll regret til the day [The Science™ comes true and] I die.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Brad Keyes
April 3, 2022 10:27 am

Brad, how dare you! I’ve been assured by people, including David Appell and Willard, that the CliSciFi establishment is noble and adheres to the highest scientific standards.

Derg
Reply to  Brad Keyes
April 3, 2022 1:15 pm

Where have you been?

Ireneusz Palmowski
April 3, 2022 9:14 am

The solar wind magnetic field in the 25th solar cycle is still weaker than in the previous cycles.comment image

Speed
April 3, 2022 9:17 am

This morning I received an email titled “Against despare” from the New York Times expressing hope …

Among the headline-grabbing wildfires, droughts and floods, it is easy to feel disheartened about climate change.

I felt this myself when a United Nations panel released the latest major report on global warming. It said that humanity was running out of time to avert some of the worst effects of a warming planet. Another report is coming tomorrow. So I called experts to find out whether my sense of doom was warranted.

To my relief, they pushed back against the notion of despair. The world, they argued, has made real progress on climate change and still has time to act. They said that any declaration of inevitable doom would be a barrier to action, alongside the denialism that Republican lawmakers have historically used to stall climate legislation. Such pushback is part of a budding movement: Activists who challenge climate dread recently took off on TikTok, my colleague Cara Buckley reported.

“Fear is useful to wake us up and make us pay attention,” Katharine Hayhoe, a climate scientist at Texas Tech University, told me. “But if we don’t know what to do, it paralyzes us.”

[ … ]

Reasons for Hope

The world has made genuine progress in slowing climate change in recent years.

I would include a link but it came in as an email with no specific NYT link … this may be close enough.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/03/briefing/climate-optimism-ukraine-week-ahead.html?searchResultPosition=2

Reply to  Speed
April 3, 2022 9:30 am

As quoted by you from the NYT email:
“ ‘Fear is useful to wake us up and make us pay attention,’ Katharine Hayhoe, a climate scientist at Texas Tech University, told me.”

Which naturally demands this reply:
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”
—H.L. Mencken

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 5:29 am

When you start to see things like maybe we are on right path because change may be moderating, you are only seeing the start of CYA. The “true believers” will never state this. Only the ones in climate science that are in it for the money will want to protect their ability to obtain money grants in the future. They are the ones who will be “on the fence” so they can always claim they just moderate in their view of science.

Richard M
April 3, 2022 9:31 am

Any assessment of a warming effect from CO2 is questionable including the good Lord’s. They all assume that CO2 creates a downward IR flux. Miskolczi 2007, 2010, 2014 demonstrated that our atmosphere exhibits radiation exchange equilibrium. This alone prevents any downward IR flux from a well mixed gas.

The only downwelling IR is local to its emission due to increasing absorption as you move lower in the atmosphere. However, upward flux is not limited as density decreases as you move up in the atmosphere.

The net result is an upward flux of energy that increases with increases in CO2 concentration. CO2 atmospheric flux is a cooling effect.

Reply to  Richard M
April 3, 2022 10:59 am

Richard M is wrong, as the position in 1850 demonstrates. The 32 K difference between the observed equilibrium temperature in 1850 and the emission temperature comprises 8 K direct warming by preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases and 24 K feedback response (nearly all of it attributable to emission temperature itself). If greenhouse gases exerted a cooling effect, the temperature in 1850 would have been below the 255 K emission temperature: but it was 32 K above emission temperature.

Richard M
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 3, 2022 12:39 pm

Yes, CO2 has a warming effect until all the available 15 micron energy is absorbed. I didn’t mention this because the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has always been sufficient to reach this saturation level. It’s irrelevant to future analysis.

I’m referring to future warming. This warming is supposedly caused primarily by a downwelling flux of energy from CO2 within the atmosphere. With radiation exchange equilibrium, this flux doesn’t exist.

What does exist, and is found by examining radiation models, is the local DWIR I mentioned. It has no warming effect because is does not contribute to an overall flux.

Reply to  Richard M
April 3, 2022 9:56 pm

Richard M is confused. The more CO2 is added to the atmosphere, the more forcing there will be, though because the response is quasi-logarithmic each additional CO2 molecule causes less warming than its predecessors.

And CO2 does not radiate downward only, but in all directions.

Richard M
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 9:29 am

Not according to this science.

http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm

Of course CO2 radiates in all directions, however, only the downward component has the ability to warm the planet.

Reply to  Richard M
April 5, 2022 8:04 pm

As I have tried to explain to the partly anonymous Richard M, heat generated by the interaction of a CO2 molecule with a photon in one of its characteristic absorption wavebands radiates in all directions. That heat is then transferred in all directions, chiefly by non-radiative transports. It is the net downward component in these radiative transports that is the principal reason why CO2 and other noncondensing greenhouse gases can cause warming.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 6, 2022 1:25 pm

This is the area which I have some disagreements about. If the CO2 in the atmosphere blocks upward radiation then it should also block downward radiation, meaning far less downward radiation should reach the earth than the earth originally sent skyward. This will obviously raise the atmospheric temperature but I fail to see how it can raise the surface temp significantly at all. Since most of the impacts we see on the surface of the earth (or at least the near earth, say the first 6 feet) is not conduction from the atmosphere the rising atmospheric temp should have little direct impact. The sun is far more of a factor than any GHG downward radiation.

Observations or criticisms?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:04 pm

It is good that you are thinking about these things, rather than taking them on trust from either side of the debate. That is rare and precious.

About 40% of all incoming radiation is already in the near-infrared, where it might interact with greenhouse gases such as CO2. Some of that radiation will interact with CO2 on the way down, and the CO2 will then cause warming in the atmosphere. The rest, whatever its wavelength, will strike the surface, and will then be displaced to the near-infrared (the temperature of the emitting surface being the sole determinant of the resultant wavelength). Therefore, on the way out there is a lot more infrared radiation than there was on the way in, and that will react far more with the CO2 than on the way, because there is so much more of it. Net effect: modest warming.

We know beyond doubt that there is a greenhouse effect, because we can calculate it from well-constrained data for 1850, where the emission temperature (which would prevail at the surface if there were no greenhouse gases in the air at the outset) is 255 K, but the observed temperature was 287 K. The 32 K difference is the greenhouse effect.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 4:25 pm

What you are basically describing is increasing the R factor of an insulator. I have started investigating describing the atmosphere as an insulator in thermodynamic terms. What the greenhouse theory doesn’t deal with is how the thermodynamic processes work.

As a beginning, assume the atmosphere has a conductivity of zero. In other words it doesn’t radiate or conduct heat at all to a third body. At best it would only heat until it reached equilibrium with the surface. An insulator can not “reverse” heat the source to a temperature higher than what the source is. Neither conduction nor radiation will allow that without violating conservation of energy.

Reply to  Richard M
April 3, 2022 8:39 pm

Richard M posted:
“Any assessment of a warming effect from CO2 is questionable including the good Lord’s. They all assume that CO2 creates a downward IR flux. Miskolczi 2007, 2010, 2014 demonstrated that our atmosphere exhibits radiation exchange equilibrium. This alone prevents any downward IR flux from a well mixed gas.”

However, IMHO, these statements are fundamentally incorrect in describing the physics behind the “greenhouse effect” as it acts in Earth’s atmosphere.

The rates for CO2 collisions with N2 and O2 molecules in the lower troposphere (up to about 5 km altitude) are 10^6 to 10^9 times faster than the rates at which CO2 molecules, on average at these conditions, will undergo “photo-relaxation” of any absorbed LWIR energy by spontaneous emission of a photon of equal or lesser energy than the one absorbed. This physical fact has been emphasized by Dr. Will Happer, among others.

Same process and trends apply to water molecules in Earth’s atmosphere, which actually exert a much stronger “greenhouse gas” influence due to being (a) in much higher concentration than CO2 over most of Earth’s surface over the range of absolute humidity conditions, and (b) having a much broader integrated-LWIR absorption band than CO2.

What this means physically is that within 5 km of Earth’s surface, atmospheric CO2 at its current level of about 420 ppm (.0004%) will essentially redistribute any LWIR energy absorbed from surface radiation, via collisional energy exchange in vibratory and translational degrees of freedom, to nitrogen and oxygen molecules . . . and just not “carry” LWIR absorbed energy into the upper half of the troposphere, let alone to the tropopause.

This “thermal equilibration” (reference Maxwell–Boltzmann distribution and energy equipartition laws) of surface energy radiation throughout all atmospheric constituents, due to very rapid collisions of all the mixed gases, in turn means that all atmospheric gases (99.1% being N2 and O2) will radiate thermal energy—since they are at temperatures above absolute zero—either directly to space or via chained collisional energy exchanges up to the level of the stratosphere where they can then radiate directly to space.

Thus, all atmospheric gases thermally radiate energy, some of which originated as Earth LWIR surface radiation energy, throughout the stratosphere . . . not just CO2 (or water vapor). Due to their much higher relative concentrations, IMHO it is more accurate to state that N2 and O2 are the major radiators of thermal radiation in the stratosphere.

And the reverse is equally true: all atmospheric gases thermally radiate energy, some of which originated as Earth LWIR surface radiation energy, back towards Earth’s surface . . . not just CO2 (or water vapor or methane or N2O). In this regard, “greenhouse gases” do function as claimed for intercepting LWIR radiation energy from Earth, but they get the underserved bad rap for being the only atmospheric constituents that radiate that energy back to the surface.

BTW, I believe the above understanding of energy exchange/equilibration taking place within the lower troposphere goes a long way toward resolving the controversy over the tropospheric “hot spot” measured temperatures being so low compared to model predictions (reference, as but one example: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/16/about-that-missing-hot-spot/ ).

Richard M
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 4, 2022 9:36 am

If there are no emissions by CO2 molecules in the lower 5 km then there are also no absorptions (Kirchhoff’s Law). However, real experiments show 99.94% of the absorption takes place in the first 10 meters of the atmosphere.

http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm

Reply to  Richard M
April 4, 2022 11:55 am

Isn’t the first 10 meters of the atmosphere within the first 5 km of the atmosphere?

And, wow, if 99.94% of the absorption of all of Earth’s LWIR radiation, from ~3.5 to ~70 microns wavelength, takes place in those first 10 meters, why don’t I feel a distinct chill when I climb up to, say, the fifth story of an office building that does not have active HVAC?

Finally, “emissions” of photons from CO2 molecules are, as I tried to carefully point out, about one-millionth to one-billionth less frequent than CO2 collisions with other molecules in the atmosphere below 5 km altitude. CO2 re-distributes its absorbed LWIR surface radiation energy overwhelming by collisional exchanges of translational and vibration energy (per Maxwell–Boltzmann distribution and energy equipartition laws of mixed gases).

Richard M
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
April 5, 2022 6:59 am

The lower 1 km of the atmosphere is known as the boundary layer. This layer is known to be in thermal equilibrium with the surface. Lots of reasons for this including a lot of turbulence. Radiation is likely a minor factor.

I agree that CO2 loses absorbed energy from the surface through collisions before it is able to reradiate. However, it is constantly being energized as well by more collisions. It is just as likely to radiate energy after these collisions as absorb energy between collisions. The net result is CO2 does radiate energy in the lower 5 km. In fact, that is where it is most active.

Reply to  Richard M
April 5, 2022 7:21 am

I’m not sure your logic holds here. If a CO2 molecule is more likely to lose energy in a collision with another molecule, it really doesn’t matter if the original energy gain comes from radiation or from another collision. Any radiation that passes by while it is energized by a collision will be absorbed higher in the atmosphere.

I suspect the probability of emitting radiation is pretty small considering the density at the boundary layer.

Reply to  Richard M
April 5, 2022 7:39 am

Well, the US Standard Atmosphere gives the temperature associated with 1 km altitude as being at 8.5 °C whereas it gives the atmospheric temperature at the surface as being 15 °C.
(Ref: https://www.digitaldutch.com/atmoscalc/ )

I do believe that 6.5 °C difference over 1 km altitude does falsify the assertion that “this layer is know to be in thermal equilibrium”.

In this regard the dry, environmental, and moist lapse rates in the atmosphere are seen to begin at the surface, not at 1 km altitude.

Such an assertion of thermal equilibrium over 1 km altitude would also be falsified by the known fact that clouds can form at altitudes below 1 km while simultaneously there is no fog at the surface beneath.

Having flown private aircraft and sailplanes, I can attest to the practical truth of the above facts (need I mention the formation and evolution of “thermals”?).

April 3, 2022 9:45 am

Winter is comming, energy is becoming more expensive… un-mothball your thickest sweaters!

Gary Pearse
April 3, 2022 10:51 am

“At any given moment – such as 1850 – any feedback processes then subsisting must perforce respond equally to each degree of the entire (255 + 8) K reference temperature and hence proportionately to each component therein.”

Christopher this is a jewel of an explanation of your thesis and I wish others could find such a touchstone for their technical criticisms of other aspects of the sc@m. I am an engineer, so had no trouble understanding the idea as originally presented, but the vast majority do not understand. These are the people we do not reach!

Apparently, 79% of British believe we need to act to switch to ‘clean’ energy. I’m sure this is an exaggeration but, still, innumerate folk have no way to judge such things. They do however possess at least simple logic and that is the Avenue to their understanding.

For example there is a large dead, still rooted tree trunk at Tuktuyaktuk on Canada’s NW Arctic coast dated a 5000yrs before present. It is 100km north of the present treeline and a few more 100s of km north of living white spruce (the same species as the oldTuk tree) of this size. A 12 year old schoolboy had no difficulty interpreting this puzzle correctly.

Reply to  Gary Pearse
April 3, 2022 10:55 am

Mr Pearse is very kind. When we first came across climatology’s error, five years ago, we had great difficulty in explaining it to those not familiar with control theory. Now, however, we have found various ways of putting our point in plain English.

It is important to understand, though, that the statement you have been kind enough to appreciate does not in itself in any way imply that the system-gain factor in the industrial era is constant. It may well vary, but not by more than a fraction of 1%, because any change in the system-gain factor must be applied not only to the tiny greenhouse-gas reference sensitivity but also to the 30-times-larger emission temperature.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 3, 2022 12:07 pm

Sorry MoB, but the planet’s average temperature is basically controlled by clouds, albedo, Planck and Clausius Clapeyron equations, as generally recently graphed (Cloud Radiative Effect) here by Willis Eschenbach as follows….and the theory of gain of electronic amplifiers is too simplistic to quantify it. Really like the Monckton pause calc every month though…

07501444-6CAE-4B09-ADB4-DA89F8ADD621.jpeg
JCM
Reply to  DMacKenzie
April 3, 2022 5:36 pm

Like most things climate, clouds are as a much a consequence of temperature as they are a cause.

Reply to  DMacKenzie
April 3, 2022 9:58 pm

Evidently, Mr McKenzie is not a control theorist. Control theory – the science of feedback – applies universally to all feedback-moderated dynamical systems, including climate. It is the error perpetrated by climatology that is simplistic, and it is fatal to the Party Line, which is why there is so much ill-informed resistance to our exposure and correction of it here.

Reply to  Gary Pearse
April 3, 2022 12:14 pm

5000yrs before present

Back in those days summer insolation at that latitude was markedly greater than today’s.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  AndyHce
April 4, 2022 3:02 pm

My point was and is that strident alarmist claims that today is the warmest it’s been for over a 100,000yrs (presumably some accept the Eemian was likely warmer) is completely falsified by this tree stump and other such evidence. I am assuming that Arctic amplification still operated and that the global anomaly was ~½ the Arctic one so perhaps 4 to 6°C warmer at Tuk and and 2 to 3°C Globally. I’m sure you arent arguing it was cooler in the tropics.

Ireneusz Palmowski
Reply to  Gary Pearse
April 3, 2022 12:15 pm

In order to prove what effect CO2 has on temperature changes in the troposphere, it is necessary to show what effect it has on the vertical temperature gradient (analogous to the case of water vapor, whose effect on the vertical temperature gradient is proven).comment image
The surface temperature of the open ocean cannot exceed 31 degrees C, due to water evaporation. Only an increase in sea surface pressure can raise the ocean temperature.comment image

leitmotif
April 3, 2022 11:14 am

Not this ECS tosh again.

bdgwx
April 3, 2022 11:45 am

CMoB said: “Even if all warming since 1990 was anthropogenic (which it was not), IPCC’s finger-in-the-air prediction has proven to be almost twice outturn.”

You keep saying this but not providing the reference in the FAR.

Here is what the IPCC FAR actually said. In terms of emissions humans selected a path far below business-as-usual.. As of 2020 there was 413 ppm of CO2 which puts us a hair above scenario B. There was 1900 ppb of CH4 which puts us right on scenario C. And there was 225 ppt of CFC11 which puts us well below scenario C/D. A big part of this is the result of the Montreal Protocol.

comment image

In terms of forcing for all GHG species via W/m2 humans selected a path even below D. Again, this is due in part to the Montreal Protocol.

comment image

Based on the information contained in the IPCC FAR I think a reasonable assignment of human behavior is scenario C. The warming the IPCC predicted for scenario C is 0.55 C. HadCRUT shows that it actually warmed 0.65 C from 1990 to 2020. Based on this it looks like the IPCC did not overestimate the warming by a factor of 2x, but actually underestimated it by about 15%. Even if you think humans went down a course closer to B that would be about 0.65 C of warming as to the observed warming of about 0.65 C or nearly spot on.

comment image

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 12:38 pm

Love being frightened by modified data.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
April 3, 2022 5:27 pm

To the best of my knowledge I don’t think anyone modified the IPCC prediction from 1990 and got the modification somehow included in the official publication especially without anyone noticing for 30 years. Either way you do not need to be afraid.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 3, 2022 10:01 pm

Bdgwx should read the head posting. There he will find a reference to IPCC’s prediction of 1.8 K global warming by 2030 compared with preindustrial temperature.

bdgwx
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 5:54 am

First, I was not talking about the 1.8 K figure. But now that you brought it up let’s discuss it. On page xxiv it clear says “IPCC Business-as-Usual Scenario”. Did you not know that the 1.8 K figure was for the business-as-usual (A) scenario?

Second, I did read the head post and I did see the reference to IPCC FAR pg. xxiv. Where do you think the graphs I posted above came from?

Third, let me be perfectly clear with this question…where specifically in the IPCC FAR do you see a prediction that was 2x above observations for the emission scenario that actually played out?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 9:14 am

CO2e emissions are at present somewhat above Scenario A of IPCC (1990).

bdgwx
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 10:42 am

Really? I’d like for you to show us what you are looking at because what I’m looking at isn’t even remotely consistent with your statement here. If you don’t mind post the business-as-usual (A) scenario emissions for 2020 that you see in the IPCC FAR (1990).

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 8:09 pm

In the real world, the question is how much CO2-equivalent radiative forcing has arisen in the 30 years since IPCC first made its extreme predictions. The answer is that CO2e emissions are tracking Scenario A, the business-as-usual scenario, yet the planet is not warming at much more than half the originally-predicted rate.

bdgwx
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 6, 2022 7:13 am

Where does it say CO2 emissions are tracking scenario A? Be specific. What section and page number are you looking at? And what are the emissions of the other gas species? Which scenario are they tracking? Again be specific. Which section and page number are you looking at? It might help if you post a link to the copy of the IPCC FAR report that you are looking at to eliminate the possibility you are using an altered copy.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 2:57 pm

The IPCC report in 1990 could hardly be expected to say whether emissions in 2020 were tracking IPCC’s 1990 prediction. We now know, however, that they were just a little above the 1990 prediction for Scenario A (business as usual).

bdgwx
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 6, 2022 3:14 pm

MoB said: “We now know, however, that they were just a little above the 1990 prediction for Scenario A (business as usual).”

Where are you seeing that?

I’m looking at the IPCC FAR from 1990 and I see nothing of the sort. In fact, I see that CO2 emissions are well below scenario, CH4 is right at about scenario C, and CFCs are well below scenario C & D.

What are you possibly looking at in the IPCC FAR from 1990 to get something remarkably different from what is published?

Why just post a page number?

Reply to  bdgwx
April 4, 2022 5:48 am

Look either the IPCC can make projections of what might occur or they can make predictions. What you are proposing is that these scenarios are predictions and scary ones at that.

You need to declare your belief of which it is. Are these simple projections? If so, what is their likelihood? Or, do you treat them as actual predictions?

Remember, if projections have a greater than 50% possibility, they suddenly turn into predictions.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 8:24 am

Where are the uncertainty bounds, bdgwx?

Reply to  Pat Frank
April 5, 2022 9:45 am

The question I’ve been asking of Monckton. He insists the IPCC confidently predicted some figure he’s made up, and ignores the IPCC’s stated uncertainties.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 8:10 pm

I say that IPCC (1990) “confidently predicts” because IPCC prefaces its global-warming predictions with the words “We confidently predict …”.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 6, 2022 5:19 am

I cannot find those words anywhere in the report. Maybe you have a different version than me

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/ipcc_far_wg_I_full_report.pdf

In the executive summary they say

We are certain of the following

Which lists two things: that there is a greenhouse effect and that humans are increasing greenhouse gasses.

Then they say

We calculate with confidence that

Which lists three things, none of which are about predicting temperature rises.

Then they say

Based on current model results, we predict

And this is where they put the warming predictions. (my emphasis)

under the IPCC Business-as-Usual (Scenario A) emissions of greenhouse gases, a rate of increase of global mean temperature during the next century of about 0 3°C per decade (with an uncertainty range of 0 2°C to 0 5°C per decade), this is greater than that seen over the past 10,000 years This will result in a likely increase in global mean temperature of about 1°C above the present value by 2025 and 3°C before the end of the next century The rise will not be steady because of the influence of other factors

The next heading states:

There are many uncertainties in our predictions particularly with regard to the timing, magnitude and regional patterns of climate change, due to our incomplete understanding of:

This section concludes

These processes are already partially understood, and we are confident that the uncertainties can be reduced by further research However, the complexity of the system means that we cannot rule out surprises

Later they say

To improve our predictive capability, we need:

which includes, better understanding of climate related processes, improving observations of climate variables, and developing better models.

And that’s just the first couple of pages of the executive summary.

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 5:35 am

Moving on to page xxiv, the one used in the head post to make the 0.34°C / decade extrapolation.

This is describing regional changes, with an emphasis that the confidence is lower for those. The relevant part says:

The numbers given below are based on high resolution models, scaled to be consistent with our best estimate of global mean warming of 1.8°C by 2030. For values consistent with other estimates of global temperature rise, the numbers below should be reduced by 30% for the low estimate or increased by 50% for the high estimate. Precipitation estimates are also scaled in a similar way.

No mention of high confidence in the global value. It’s described as the best “estimate” and given a range of -30% to +50%.

Pages xxvii and xvii contain a lot more discussion about how much confidence they have in the predictions.

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 6:51 am

Bellman, my implied point was that all of bdgwx’s graphics are physically meaningless.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 5, 2022 10:57 am

Good question. When we try to bring this up with CMoB his responses are unsatisfactory if he even engages in that line of discussion at all.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 6, 2022 6:56 am

I was referring to the uncertainties in your graphics, bdgwx, not in Christopher’s work. The projections in your graphics are physically meaningless.

They support no point at all, except that the IPCC don’t know what they’re talking about.

Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 10:06 am

It is noteworthy that Dr. Roy Spencer says the satellites have an uncertainty of 5 – 10 W/m^2 reaching the earth. Basically, everything on the graphics depiction is within that uncertainty interval and therefore attribution to any given thing is simply meaningless.

April 3, 2022 1:33 pm

For my own interest I though I’d plot what the lengths of all the pauses, using Monckton’s definition, looked like. That is the length of the longest sub zero trend from each month.

Not the most elegant graph I’m afraid, but it does suggest one thing to me. Monckton Pauses, at least using UAH, go out with a bang not a whimper. They basically keep increasing with the passage of time, as the start date doesn’t change too much, until the next big El Niño. Then the old pause dies and the next one is born.

20220403wuwt1.png
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 1:34 pm

This graph shows how the pause start date has changed over time.

20220403wuwt2.png
Derg
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 3:45 pm

You are just mad because we are all cold.

MarkW
Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 4:41 pm

You say that like it was actually something meaningful.

Reply to  MarkW
April 3, 2022 4:54 pm

I should make it clear that I consider the pause start and length to be pretty much meaningless. This is just a bit of fun.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 8:14 pm

Bellman is here repeating an analysis I had previously published here, showing that each Pause begins not with a spike in greenhouse-gas concentrations but with a spike in the naturally-occurring el Nino Southern Oscillation. Yet no one is monitoring the volcanic activity in the Nino 1-2 region of the equatorial eastern Pacific, where three tectonic divergence ridges meet, and where the divergence of the tectonic plates occurs at a rate exceeding the global mean by an order of magnitude.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 6, 2022 6:31 am

Sorry I missed that previous analysis. Do you have a link?

It’s not really a surprise, the opposite in fact, that each pause starts just before a large El Niño and ends with the next. To me that suggests these pauses are just statistical mirages rather than actual descriptions of what temperature is doing.

As my other graph shows, not only does the length of a pause grow as we wait for the next spike, so too does the length of periods with faster rates of warming. Neither of these are a good basis to claim that the rate of increase is falling or increasing.

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 1:28 pm

To me that suggests these pauses are just statistical mirages rather than actual descriptions of what temperature is doing.”

To most of us it represents a natural variation, probably cyclical. Standard statistical analysis is not very good at describing such phenomenon.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 7, 2022 3:15 pm

If you want to show there are cyclical natural variety, drawing flat lines going up in steps is not the best way.

Reply to  Bellman
April 7, 2022 8:22 pm

Never heard of a square wave or triangle wave, eh? Just more ignorance of physical reality from you. Get your head out of your math book and join us in the real physical world.

(Hint: what is the Fourier transform of a square wave or a triangle wave?)

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 8, 2022 5:36 am

Do you expect theglobal climate in the real physical world to follow a square wave? What is your real world physical basis for this.?

And if this is a square wave, shouldn’t go up and down, rather than just going up?

Reply to  Bellman
April 8, 2022 3:27 pm

You didn’t answer my question. I didn’t expect you to.

A square wave, a triangle wave, and a trapezoid wave are all made up of cyclical sine waves. So are more complicated waveforms.

Glacial periods and inter-glacials are a cyclical phenomenon. So are lots of ocean cyclicals.

Who says temps must always go up and never down. You are betraying your ignorance of time series.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 8, 2022 7:20 pm

I’ve no intention on answering questions about Fourier translations. Is that the same as a transform? It’s not something I have any familiarity with.

The fact that you can combine multiple sine waves to make any shape you like is a problem. How do you know there’s any physical basis to your deconstruction. Is the same problem as fitting a high order polynomial to the temperature record. With enough degrees of freedom you can get a good fit, but you could just be fitting the noise.

I’m not saying temps can only go up. I’m saying that so far your square wave pattern, i.e. those selected pauses, have only gone up.

Reply to  Bellman
April 9, 2022 6:22 am

How do you know there’s any physical basis to your deconstruction. Is the same problem as fitting a high order polynomial to the temperature record. “

LOL!! You do realize you just blew off most of physics and electromagnetic theory don’t you?

I guess you do realize there is a difference between time related periodic phenomena using trigonometry versus algebraic polynomials, right?

How does one know there is a physical basis? Go back to school and learn. There is already too much teaching of basics on this site to start also teaching calculus based analysis of basic phenomena. Look up Maxwell’s partial differential equations if you don’t think there is a physical basis.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 9, 2022 8:44 am

You do realise the climate isn’t an electromagnet don’t you?

Reply to  Bellman
April 9, 2022 9:32 am

Does it have periodic time related cycles? Then Fourier applies. You’ll notice I did say physics!

Do bridges require harmonic analysis to make sure they don’t fail in wind? How about harmonic distortion is speakers? Do you think step functions can’t and aren’t used to analyze the various harmonics in any physical reaction to an impulse? How about wave machines? What are their fundamental and harmonic possibilities?

You’re out of your league here dude!

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 9, 2022 4:23 pm

Whatever. As I’ve asked you before, if you think you can predict temperature by combining sine waves, show your work.

Reply to  Bellman
April 9, 2022 6:59 pm

Is La Nina a cyclic process? Can it influence temperature?

If it is cyclic it is made up of sine waves.

Is the sun’s path sinusoidal from sunrise to sunset? Is the sun’s insolation related to sin(x). Does that sinusoid impact the temp at any specific point on the earth? (x is longitude) is the sun’s isolation related to its latitude (y) by sin(y)? f so then the sun’s insolation at any point on the earth is related to the combination of two different sinusoids.

Is the temp at any point on earth related to the sun’s insolation at that point?

Need I go on?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 9, 2022 7:21 pm

If ENSO is a cyclic process it’s very irregular. If you can model it by a combination of sine waves then presumably you can predict when the next big El Niño will happen.

Reply to  Bellman
April 9, 2022 7:38 pm

ENSO is cyclic. It is made up of various other pieces that go into and out of phase on an irregular basis.

You obviously know little about wave theory or you would understand constructive and destructive interference and how moving phases can cause all kinds of things. Have ever tuned an instrument with a tuning fork and listened for the beat note? Have you ever tuned a multi-element directional antenna like a microwave link.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 10, 2022 1:07 pm

You’re right I know little about this, but unless you can demonstrate how you can actually predict the cycles of ENSO using constructive and destructive sine waves, it’s difficult to see why you would assume there is a physical cause. I expect a tuning fork or microwaves to have predictable wave patterns. I doubt the same is true about ocean cycles.

Reply to  Bellman
April 10, 2022 3:54 pm

Whoa! No physical cause? Getting pretty far out there aren’t you?

Reply to  Bellman
April 11, 2022 6:43 am

It’s cycles all the way down! ESNO appears to be of a varying frequency because it too is made up of other varying cycles.

I give you this page: https://byjus.com/maths/trigonometric-identities/

Or better yet, this one: https://dotancohen.com/eng/taylor-sine.php

The second link shows the Taylor series for a single sine wave. Now consider how two of these would combine! Especially if they are at different frequencies.

Look especially at the sections Product-Sum and Product. These identities are for just TWO components, e.g. sin(x)sin(y). There are multiple factors affecting the biosphere of Earth. The climate scientists trying to develop models today have no idea what all the various factors are let alone how they combine. And they don’t appear to even be interested in learning about this subject at all. They have their control knob, CO2, and by God they are going to stick to it!.

And it *is* obvious that you know little about this. But it doesn’t seem to stop your pontificating on the subject and denigrating those that do.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 11, 2022 10:50 am

Yes, with enough cycles you can fit anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6sGWTCMz2k

But correlation is not causation.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 10, 2022 3:38 pm

Read; this, it is a good tutorial on the start of time series analysis.

Explaining Mauna Loa CO2 Increases with Anthropogenic and Natural Influences – Watts Up With That?

Reply to  Bellman
April 10, 2022 3:56 pm

Read; this, it is a good tutorial on the start of time series analysis.

Explaining Mauna Loa CO2 Increases with Anthropogenic and Natural Influences – Watts Up With That?

Reply to  Bellman
April 8, 2022 7:59 am

It really isn’t “flat” lines. That was just my way of emphasizing the uncertainty interval. It could be shading to show the uncertainty interval. The point is that the actual value is unknown. You only know that it is somewhere in that interval.

When you pull up data from the past that is recorded in integers, do you know if the actual mercury level was below or above the recorded value?

The correct answer is “I don’t know where the actual mercury level was!”. That means you must show the interval that the measurement could have had. That interval MUST be carried through each computation that uses that value, such as, daily midrange, weekly, monthly, annually, anomaly, etc. That interval never disappears regardless of what gyrations of math you take.

Graphs that don’t show these intervals with line width, shading, bars or some type of method make me suspicious from the outset. It tells me that the maker has no idea what uncertainty is and even less knowledge about how to show it.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 8, 2022 8:38 am

I’m not sure what you are referring to here. If the pause isn’t a flat line then what makes it a pause?

You still seem to be insisting that UAH data is completely unreliable, yet claim you can use it to show a lack of correlation with CO2.

Reply to  Bellman
April 8, 2022 10:43 am

I’m not saying that UAH is unreliable. You are reading too much into what I said. The pause trend is well defined within the boundaries of the data.

I have the benefit of forecasting data of numerous kinds for years. Calls, usage of equipment (Poisson usually), budgets, people, etc. You learn very quickly that regression trends are fine for looking at data you already have. But, beware using them to march into the unknown future especially when they have cycles involved.

I’ll guarantee you that if the scientist’s and politician’s jobs truly depended on ACCURATE predictions of what was going to happen and WHEN, they would be much more circumspect in what CO2 was going to do.

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 3:40 pm

Look at the graph. A return to zero from both warmer and colder periods puts a kibosh on a constantly growing temperature. It is an indication of cyclical behavior or more likely some combination of different cycles with varying periods.

UAH temp 2 of 2022.png
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 5:59 pm

What do you think zero means in this case? Would you argue differently if UAH kept the older anomaly period?

The only cycles I see in the graph, are the unpredictable ups and downs of changing ENSO conditions. These sit on top of a clear upward trend. Of course this could be part of a bigger cycle, and maybe we reached the peak in 2020 and it’s all down from here. But there;s no way you could tell that just by looking at “pauses”.

Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 6:15 pm

But there;s no way you could tell that just by looking at “pauses”.”

Where do you see pauses in this graph? I see time varying ups and downs from the combinations of various cycles with different periods (and varying periods) and phases.

Your exclamation that who knows whether we could go up or even go down is exactly on point. At this point in time we simply don’t have the data to gauge what and how cycles combine. Especially when some will obviously have periods in the hundreds of years. 150 years of questionable data doesn’t even come close to the Nyquist limit required for adequately assessing how this whole climate thing works.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 7, 2022 3:03 pm

I don’t. As I keep saying I think most of these pauses are statistical mirages, people searching for what they want to see.

Reply to  Bellman
April 3, 2022 4:52 pm

I’ve also tracked the longest period of “accelerated” warming for each date, here defined as warming at a rate of 0.3 °C / decade or higher.

I find it interesting that for a lot of the time, both pause and acceleration lengths are increasing at the same time, rather than being a mirror image of each other.

At present the > 0.3/decade warming is around twice as long as the pause, but I expect that to change at some point.

20220403wuwt4.png
MGC
April 3, 2022 1:43 pm

Really? Another foolish (posted on WUWT on April 3rd, two days late) “bu bu bu bu bu PAUSE” piece of nonsense to spoon feed to the willfully ignorant WUWT crowd?

Wouldn’t one think that after getting egg on their collective faces after the last “pause” ended so decisively against them, that soi-disant “skeptics” would quit playing their loser “bu bu bu bu PAUSE” card? Nope, here they are, at it again, just itching to be hosed this time around, too.

Also included free of charge in this latest Monckton screed is one of those typically pompous handwaving claims that “they (i.e. the entire worldwide scientific community) ‘forgot’, they ‘mis-allocated’, they ‘miscalculated’ … and I and I alone ‘know better’ … simply because I say so”.

So ridiculous.

Reply to  MGC
April 3, 2022 2:19 pm

Why don’t you try convincing me that his post is wrong?

Your pompous whining fact/evidence free bla bla bla doesn’t work here.

MarkW
Reply to  Sunsettommy
April 3, 2022 4:47 pm

Have you noticed how all of the trolls start spouting the same message at the same time? This month they are universally trying to claim that the fact that previous “pauses” have ended, proves that this one will end and therefore are meaningless.

It’s almost as if they all got the same talking points memo at the same time.

Reply to  MarkW
April 3, 2022 6:22 pm

I’m not saying. All I say is that if temperatures keep rising it’s certain this pause will end at some point, just as all the previous ones did. Probably with the next big El Niño.

That doesn’t prove temperatures will continue to rise, and if they don’t yes the pause will continue for ever. I just think “sceptics” here might be wise to wait until there was clear evidence that this was happening, rather than getting all exited over natural variation.

Geoff Sherrington
Reply to  Bellman
April 4, 2022 1:25 am

Bellman,
There is more interest in the mechanisms of how the temperatures pause for a decade or so, while GHG are observed to increase. What makes the temperature immune from increase over a pause? Does the GHG lose its strength to warm, or do cooling factors from natural variation offset the climb?
I am more interested in an explanation of the mechanisms than in more graphs that simply observe the result. Geoff S

bdgwx
Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
April 4, 2022 7:18 am

The temperature change of a body is given by ΔT = ΔE/(c*m) where ΔT is the change in temperature, ΔE is the change in energy, c is the specific heat capacity, and m is mass. Since c and m are essentially constant for the UAH TLT layer that means ΔE is almost entirely modulating the temperature change. And since ΔE = ΣEin – ΣEout we know that temperature changes are modulated by the net of all energy fluxes into and out of the body. CO2 is only one among many factors acting on the energy fluxes. All it takes is an offsetting decrease of Ein or increase of Eout from from another factor to create the pause. This could be transient increase in albedo, decrease in the latent flux to the atmosphere, decrease in the sensible flux to the atmosphere, decrease radiative forcing by a gas species other than CO2, and numerous other possibilities.

Reply to  bdgwx
April 5, 2022 6:33 am

transient”

Why do you use the word transient? That indicates you think the pause will stop and the temp will return to a rising trend. There *are* other options. Changes may not be transient at all. If you don’t know what the cause is then assuming it is transient shows a bias.

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
April 4, 2022 7:27 am

It would be even more interesting to establish that there really is a pause in temperature. E.g. show that there was a statistically significant change in the rate of warming.

So far all I see is the natural consequences of an underlying rate of warming with variation. You can easily find longish periods where the linear trend is zero, but that doesn’t prove there is no warming, any more than finding a linear trend of much faster warming rates means the rate of warming has increased.

Reply to  MarkW
April 3, 2022 9:09 pm

Yes, the trend of pausing/declining global temperatures from about 1940 to about 1975 did finally end . . . after 35 years, a period sufficiently long to qualify it as true climate change.

Similarly, each of the typical 60-80 thousands of years of cooling associated with the last three stadials did eventually end, with a succeeding interval of global warming.

Meaningless, as you say.

MarkW
Reply to  MGC
April 3, 2022 4:42 pm

The alarmists really are desperate to prove to each other that the scam isn’t falling apart.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  MarkW
April 4, 2022 3:35 am

That made me laugh out loud! 🙂

Trump says climate change (the human-caused kind) is a hoax.

The climate change scammers are having a hard time successfully promoting their scam. They’ve got the politicians (except Trump) and the monied Elites in their corner, but they don’t have the people.

The scammer’s only hope is to lie better, but even that won’t help their cause in the long run.

MGC
Reply to  Tom Abbott
April 4, 2022 5:07 am

Here’s Tom Abbott still pretending that quite accurate scientific projections made decades ago, that continue to play out accurately, are a “scam”. His “position” sadly remains the very epitome of delusional anti-science head-in-the-sand political ideology.

MarkW
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 6:31 am

Here’s MGC whistling past the graveyard, still trying to pretend that the utterly discredited projections were actually accurate.

MGC
Reply to  MarkW
April 4, 2022 8:07 am

MarkW speaks of the so-called “utterly discredited projections”

Such a pitiful display of outright & willful dishonesty, MarkW. So sadly typical of so-called “skeptics”.

Here’s reality: current mean global temperature is just about right smack dab in the middle of the 1995 IPCC SAR projection window.

bdgwx
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 8:45 am

It also happens to be nearly spot on with the 1990 IPCC FAR projection as well.

Simon
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 11:36 pm

His “position” sadly remains the very epitome of delusional anti-science head-in-the-sand political ideology.”
I think you are being kind.

meab
Reply to  MGC
April 3, 2022 7:16 pm

Are you the same MGC who used to post lies on Yahoo? You know before Yahoo discontinued all comments because they were receiving too many factual comments that challenged the leftist narrative?

The same MGC who posted that climate change would make fresh water a scarce resource followed almost immediately by a post that claimed climate change would inundate us with rain?

That idiot?

MGC
Reply to  meab
April 4, 2022 7:34 am

meab,

More rainfall on a global scale but scarcity of fresh water in particular local regions are not incompatible outcomes. In fact, we are already seeing exactly that scenario play out: overall rainfall has been increasing worldwide, yet water resources in places such as the U.S. Southwest have been dwindling, and continue to do so.

Your comment is an unfortunate example of the typical intentionally ignorant “skeptical” attitude so often found at places like WUWT.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 8:08 am

In fact, we are already seeing exactly that scenario play out: overall rainfall has been increasing worldwide, yet water resources in places such as the U.S. Southwest have been dwindling, and continue to do so.

Another silly person—the Southwest is arid (i.e. desert) and semiarid climates, drought are to be expected, has nothing to do with the CO2 boogieman.

And who are “we”?

Your comment is an unfortunate example of the typical intentionally ignorant “skeptical” attitude so often found at places like WUWT.

Irony alert.

MGC
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 4, 2022 8:46 am

“has nothing to do with CO2”

Merely because I, the great and powerful “Monte Carlo”, have declared it to be so! Never mind what the overwhelming vast majority of the worldwide scientific community has to say.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 8:58 am

“10 out of 9 dentists agree!!”

paul courtney
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 12:54 pm

MGC: The vast majority of the worldwide scientific community called, they said you could speak for them! Imagine my surprise.

MGC
Reply to  paul courtney
April 4, 2022 1:15 pm

paul, thanks for yet another example of a totally lame comment. Anyone can simply look up what the worldwide scientific community has had to say regarding CO2 and climate change. But you apparently won’t do so, because you want to pretend away reality.

Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 3:10 pm

Your reality apparently. Tell you what, look up what the worldwide scientific community said about heliocentricity or plate tectonics or even Einstein’s theories. You reckon the worldwide scientific community might have been wrong on those or a hundred other things?

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 3:46 pm

He’s a droid, programmed to repeat the official party politics.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 8:58 pm

Yet another irrational, illogical non-response response, Jim. Scientists sometimes having been wrong before is not evidence that they are “wrong” now.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 6:50 am

You have never taken any logic courses have you. Look up the phrase “contradiction in logic” or “proof by contradiction”. You made an assertion that you believe is true, I proved it not true by using a contradiction.

You should realize that science is NEVER PROVEN or DISPROVEN simply by consensus.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 5:26 pm

Jim, your comments just get more and more ridiculous. You proved nothing whatever.

Your so-called “argument”, just blurting out “bu bu bu bu they’ve been wrong before!” could be used as an “argument” against literally *anything*, including arguing against things that we are more or less certain of being correct.

The one here who does not understand logic is you, son.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 5:52 am

I expect the “son” thing is reversed, but be that as it may, you still have not shown one reference for any of your assertions. All you are doing is word salad ad hominems. That is really scientific! Congratulations.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 7:27 am

Jim changes the subject again, which means he is tacitly admitting that his so-called “logical” so-called “argument”, that being “bu bu bu bu bu scientists have sometimes been wrong before” was neither logical nor an actual argument. It was nothing but irrational handwaving in order to try to pretend away reality. Sadly typical.

paul courtney
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 3:56 pm

I googled “worldwide scientific community” to find their site. No climate porn sites came up. So, I really tried. I’ll have to rely on you- please tell me what the worldwide scientific community says regarding CO2 and climate change. For me, your word is good enough; others here will want citation.

MGC
Reply to  paul courtney
April 4, 2022 9:01 pm

Thanks paul, for yet another childish deflection away from having to face reality.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 7:02 am

MC told you that the Southwest is an historic arid and semi-arid desert. You use the argumentative fallacy of Argument by Dismissal to just ignore that fact and couple it with the argumentative fallacy of Argument by Ad Hominem instead of actually addressing the point being made. You are a troll, pure and plain.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 5:41 pm

Tim, merely stating that the U.S. Southwest is “an historic arid and semi-arid desert” is in no way “evidence” that CO2 has “nothing to do” with current changes there.

Monte’s observation is every bit as logically flawed an “argument” as claiming, if, say, a meteor strike in the U.S. Southwest happened to set off massive forest fires, that the meteor had “nothing to do” with those fires, “because the U.S. Southwest is an historic arid and semi-arid desert, don’t ya know”. Its a totally laughable non-argument.

And so yes, I did make fun of that “argument”, because it was beyond obvious (to me anyway, but apparently beyond your limited comprehension) that it was not any kind of an “argument” at all.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 12:08 pm

Tim, merely stating that the U.S. Southwest is “an historic arid and semi-arid desert” is in no way “evidence” that CO2 has “nothing to do” with current changes there.”

In other words you think the current changes in the Southwest are unique in the history of the area.

Here’s what you said: “yet water resources in places such as the U.S. Southwest have been dwindling, and continue to do so.”

Water resources in the Southwest have been scarce historically. It’s why it’s been classified as arid desert or semi-arid desert. If there has been a larger abundance of water in the recent past then THAT is what has been unique – not a return to what is considered historically normal. CO2 has been both higher and lower in the Southwest historically than it is today – but neither have changed its classification from arid/semi-arid desert.

 the meteor had “nothing to do” with those fires”

The meteor is a direct causal link to the fires. Since CO2 has been both higher and lower in the Southwest in the past while it has remained classified as arid-semi-arid desert the whole time there is *no* corresponding direct causal link to CO2.

You are grasping at straws.

Check your own comprehension levels before criticizing those of others.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 2:25 pm

Tim says:

“Since CO2 has been both higher and lower in the Southwest in the past while it has remained classified as arid-semi-arid desert the whole time there is *no* corresponding direct causal link to CO2.”

Merely remaining “classified as arid-semi-arid desert the whole time” is far, far too broad a range to try to ascertain a causal link to CO2. You could say exactly the same thing about the meteor strike example. And you would be equally wrong.

Derg
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 12:56 am

Your religion is in trouble.

dk_
April 3, 2022 2:39 pm

Enjoy your personal transport while it lasts. Even if you can afford to run the present one, you won’t be able to afford a new one.

They’ll need a new one in five years, if not less. Perhaps by then, some will have finally learned that the things are charged mainly by generators running on natural gas and coal. Unlikely, but possible, while others are paying for it.

I appreciate the small lesson on arms in the age of cancellation.

Editor
April 3, 2022 3:20 pm

Readers should be aware that the “HadCRUT4 record of monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies for the 172 years 1850-2021” is at best a blatant GUESS before the turn of the 20th century — even up to the end of WWI is is only representational and exact average annual temperatures should be be considered even vaguely accurate — only magnitudes are possibly accurate for comparative use.

MarkW
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 3, 2022 4:51 pm

Up until the first satellite measurements of almost the entire earth, all of the temperature averages were little better than guesses.

Editor
Reply to  MarkW
April 3, 2022 5:01 pm

MarkW ==> With your point taken — satellite temperatures are not the same thing as thermometer measured surface air temps. One measures sensible air temperature at head height (in the past almost entirely by human checked and recorded thermometer readings — and in present by automated electronic weather stations). satellites measure heat content of the atmosphere at different levels — none of which are surface temperatures at six feet.

The problem of the past is that there simply were not enough thermometers adequately spread out geographically or recorded accurately enough to be analyzed into a Global single number.

Derg
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 4, 2022 1:00 am

What are the correct number of thermometers?

I can go a short distance and have a different reading.

Editor
Reply to  Derg
April 4, 2022 7:32 am

Derg ==> That is the Sampling Problem that appears in almost every bit of research about anything. How many samples do I need?How close physically? How close temporally? How accurate? Measured and recorded by what methods?

John Endicott
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 4, 2022 9:57 am

You are dodging the question. You asserted “The problem of the past is that there simply were not enough thermometers adequately spread out geographically…” which begs the question of “how many would be enough”? a question you avoided answering.

Editor
Reply to  John Endicott
April 4, 2022 3:39 pm

John ==> If it were my research issue, say for my PhD thesis, I would have be to able to give a serious answer that question within the the perimeters of my overall research question. But I am not in that business.

The fact of “not enough thermometers adequately spread out geographically…” remains — and I need not have a precise answer to the question to makis the statement of obvious scientific fact. You see, more than one is a given, as is more than 1+1 …..and more than 1 + 2. Where that makes sense is a question that depends on whay question one is trying to answer and to what degrees of accuracy and within what range of uncertainty.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 5, 2022 8:34 am

It really doesn’t matter much what the number or spread of thermometers is. It doesn’t matter whether you use absolute temps or anomalies. Using absolute temps creates a multi-modal distribution between the NH and SH. Since anomalies are greater in the winter than in summer the same multi-modal distribution occurs when using them. Thus the average is meaningless for describing the data. And that doesn’t even account for the propagation of uncertainty associated with thousands of measurements of different things using different measurement devices.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 4, 2022 3:53 am

“The problem of the past is that there simply were not enough thermometers adequately spread out geographically or recorded accurately enough to be analyzed into a Global single number.”

There are enough thermometers, in the form of unmodified, regional surface temperature charts to show us it was just as warm in the Early Twentieth Century as it is today, and this pattern shows up in every region of the world where these measurements were taken, which in effect covers the whole world.

Being just as warm in the recent past as today means CO2 is a minor player in the Earth’s atmosphere, since there is more CO2 in the air today than back then, yet it is no warmer today than then. The regional surface temperature charts tell us we have nothing to fear from CO2.

The temperature profiles of the regional temperature charts look nothing like the profile of HadCRUT4 or any of the other bogus, instrument-era Hockey Stick charts.

If I were asked to choose between the regional charts and the bogus Hockey Stick charts as being the best representation of the global climate, I would have to go with the regional charts as being representative of the whole globe.

I don’t see how any other conclusion can be reached given the existence of the regional charts, and given the dishonesty displayed by the Temperature Data Mannipulators.

The unmodified regional surface temperature charts put the lie to the bogus Hockey Stick charts. One set of charts, the regional charts, were put together by human beings with no climate change agenda or bias, and the other set were created out of whole cloth by dishonest climate change activists to sell the human-caused climate change hoax. They have been very successful in their lies so far.

But actual recorded temperatures tell a different, benign story, of the Earth’s climate.

Hockey Stick charts were designed to scare people into submission.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
April 4, 2022 7:07 am

Yes. If global means anything at all, it means the entire globe is doing the same thing. Far too many scientists use this interpretation. Regional temps tell a different story. They put the lie to “global changes” and meaningless averages.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 8:10 am

I predict you will never see any of the usual suspects admit to this inconvenient truth.

MGC
Reply to  Tom Abbott
April 4, 2022 8:26 am

Tom Abbott sadly keeps repeating the totally false claim that

“it was just as warm in the Early Twentieth Century as it is today”

If this claim were really true, Tom, then please explain to us how last spring frosts continue to come earlier and earlier, first fall frosts continue to come later and later, first spring blossoms come earlier and earlier, and plant hardiness zones continue moving toward the poles.

Fact is, even plants and the soil that they live in both know beyond any doubt whatever that temperatures have most definitely increased over the past century.

This data demonstrates that so-called “skeptics” such as Tom Abbott are … literally … “dumber than dirt”.

Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 11:06 am

Warmth is typically measured against max temps. Last spring frost is dependent on min temps. Avg temps can go up from min temps going up just as easily as from max temps.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 4, 2022 11:40 am

Tim Gorman says “Warmth is typically measured against max temps”

No it isn’t. Another typically false WUWT excuse in order to try to pretend away reality.

For the purposes of gauging climate change, average temperatures are what are primarily looked at, and the first and last frost dates data just cited demonstrates that averages have definitely been going up. Tom Abbott’s claim that it was “just as warm in the early 20th century” is completely refuted by this data and is totally false.

It is worth noting however that the CO2 warming mechanism does in fact influence minimum temperatures more than maximum temperatures. It was predicted decades ago that this would be the case, and it is what is actually observed. That’s another correct AGW projection that so-called “skeptics” disingenuously ignore.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 12:17 pm

For the purposes of gauging climate change, average temperatures are what are primarily looked at

Its fiction, GAT doesn’t even exist.

MGC
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 4, 2022 12:37 pm

“GAT doesn’t even exist”

Another utterly ridiculous WUWT excuse for pretending away reality, as totally lame as pretending that there is no such thing as an average weight of people.

Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 3:21 pm

Tell you what, would you make saddles/halters in one size for the average height of horses? How about shirt sleeves in one size for the average arm length?

Today, all these come in different sizes! Do you know why and can you tell us the math behind using different sizes rather than the mean?

You also talk like anomalies are real temperatures, THEY ARE NOT! You sound like you know that either the whole earth is warming as the GAT says or that there are specific areas where it is happening. Tell us which and where! Inquiring minds want to know!

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 6:51 am

Jim says:

“would you make saddles/halters in one size for the average height of horses? How about shirt sleeves in one size for the average arm length? Today, all these come in different sizes!”

So what? Doesn’t mean there isn’t still an average size that can be calculated. Moreover, we would find that average shirt sleeves sizes today are larger than they were a few hundred years ago. As nutrition has become better, people have on average become larger.

What a laughably lame excuse for pretending away reality, Jim!

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 7:27 am

You are continuing to show your lack of knowledge, do you know that?

Sure you can calculate a mean value of a distribution. The point is that without the other statistical parameters that are associated with the distribution from which you obtain the mean, you have no way to know what the dispersion of the data is.

What was the last statistics class you took? Did the instructor allow you to assume all distributions are Gaussian? If so, you wasted your money.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 6:06 pm

re: “What was the last statistics class you took?”

Ha! I’ve *taught* college engineering statistics, Jimbo.

So stop pretending that I don’t know what I’m talking about, and try instead reading *carefully* and *thoughtfully* what I said:

“Doesn’t mean there isn’t still an average size that can be calculated”

That average size (or, in the case of climate change, average temperatures) would be calculated from the values of the individual datapoints that make up the dataset. Yep, to calculate the mean, we would need to know those individual data point values. Therefore the dispersion of the data would be known as well … for shirt sleeve sizes, or for global temperatures. DUH.

Jim also said: “You also talk like anomalies are real temperatures, THEY ARE NOT!”

Wrong again, son. “anomalies” are nothing more than a fancy term for the calculated change of real temperatures. But apparently you have swallowed some WUWT anti-science propaganda that has you imagining otherwise.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 6:33 am

Oh yeah! Come on smart guy, tell us the statistical parameters associated with the GAT anomaly AND the same for the real temperatures! As a teacher you must know that a mean is meaningless without knowing these parameters. What are they?

Or maybe you have ingested the propaganda and incorporated it into your system.

Attached is a graph from a previous post on this site. Show us a graph of a local/regional location that generates temperatures sufficient to have an average of GAT for the same period!

Your lack of references just keeps making your lack of knowledge about the subject more and more plain.

Japan-mean-winter-2021.png
MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 7:39 am

Really Jim? You are imagining that data from just a single season of the year at a single little teensy weensy location on the planet is “evidence” ?? What is the matter with you?

And really? Are you truly unaware that there are literally hundreds of measurement stations around the globe, similar to the one you reference, with the vast majority of them showing a clear warming trend that’s been going on for decades? You really don’t know this?

If you are truly unaware of such well known facts, then you have no business whatever engaging in a genuine climate change discussion. You don’t meet even the simplest prerequisites.

And sorry, but no, I’m not your remedial tutor on this. Genuinely educate >>yourself<< for a change. That means getting off this WUWT propaganda channel and investigating instead what the most prestigious scientific organizations in the entire world have had to say about this topic, and the decades of data that they have to back what they say.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 8:29 am

You just keep on with the ad homs! Shame, shame. Someone able to teach college level math should have better responses to my references.

You should also know that for every data point below the average, you need one the same distance above the average in a Gaussian distribution. If the distributions aren’t Gaussian not knowing the associated statistical parameters is even worse. And, btw, averaging SST’s, NH/SH always gives a multimodal distribution.

I see you are into the concensus science religion and its dogma. Take your own advice and do some in depth research into how the atmosphere works.

I have included another graph from NASA that shows the GAT. Find another site where the average with the Japan data comes out with the GAT. FYI, Japan’s last year is 0.41 and the GAT is about 0.9. When you find one we can scratch those two from the list.

“And sorry, but no, I’m not your remedial tutor on this.”

I’ll tell you the same thing. If you haven’t done the research and can’t post references then you are behind the 8-ball. Ad hominem,’s and appeals to your own authority don’t fly here.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 8:31 am

Forgot to add the graph with shading.

PSX_20220406_084351~2.jpg
MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 8:46 am

Jim, your questions about station data are on the same level as if, say, we were in an algebra class discussing the quadratic formula, but you are asking how is it that we know seven times nine is sixty three.

That’s the level of gross incompetence you’re displaying here. You don’t belong in any serious discussion of climate change if you are genuinely not aware of the answers to your questions.

“concensus science religion”

A truly childish so-called “skeptical” talking point, and yet another indication of your woeful lack of any kind of genuine competence on this topic.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 11:15 am

Troll answer. You fail again.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 2:28 pm

Sorry that you are unable to handle the reality of your lack of competence on this topic, Jim.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 5:20 pm

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer my question.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 9:02 am

Jim also says: “btw, averaging SST’s, NH/SH always gives a multimodal distribution.”

So what? There’s a multimodal distribution of human heights, too, male vs female and adult vs child. That doesn’t in any way, shape, or form change the fact that humans have been getting taller over the past few centuries.

Likewise, a multimodal distribution of SST’s doesn’t in any way, shape, or form change the fact that our planet is warming. Not to mention that one might expect to see that kind of distribution, given the uneven distribution of land masses between the hemispheres.

Yep, just another utterly laughable, totally incompetent, so easily refuted so-called “skeptical” so-called “argument” from Jimbo.

I’m truly embarrassed for you, son. Your “arguments” are all so tragically ridiculous.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 11:17 am

Troll answer. Fail again.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 2:42 pm

A legitimate response from Jim would have been to accept and acknowledge that the mere existence a multimodal distribution is not relevant to the discussion of the trend of a dataset over time. The example of the trend of human heights over time fully demonstrates this.

But no. Instead, we’re treated to Jim’s new go to “response”, apparently to be seen every time now after he’s been totally owned:

“Troll answer. Fail again.”

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 5:45 pm

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer my question. You made the claim, not me. Let’s see your response.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

Nothing more from me until you answer my question about the book you taught from. This is not a hard question to answer. It doesn’t even require you to use an internet search. Just a simple book title and author.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 9:24 am

And oh, by the way, my comments were not “ad homs”.

Pointing out that you don’t meet the prerequisites for a genuine discussion, because you are not aware of the actual station data, is not an “ad hom”. It is a simple statement of fact, no different than stating the fact that a student does not meet the prerequisites for Calculus I, because they have not yet learned algebra.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 11:25 am

utterly laughable, totally incompetent”

truly childish

lack of any kind of genuine competence

Among others. Ad hominem. Maybe you should read about the definition.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:11 pm

You are being silly avoiding his challenge, I think you made your claims up since you haven’t once explicated a cogent reply to his challenge.

The longer you avoid an answer that meets your claimed expertise you will be considered unreliable therefore dismissed.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:07 pm

You can’t even honestly take up his challenge, it should be easy for you to tackle being a TEACHER of Engineering Statistics.

What is holding you back?

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 8:52 am

You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Pleade tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 9:17 am

First things first, Jimbo. You first need to educate yourself on the station data. It is completely useless discussing any statistics textbooks or any statistical make-up of the data when your commentary demonstrates that you don’t even know what the data is to begin with.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 11:19 am

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer the question.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:00 pm

You don’t even know the data, Jim. Your comments indicate that you know only certain cherry picked bits and pieces of the data that WUWT has disingenuously spoon fed you.

Under such circumstances, any discussions or any questions about statistics textbooks or the statistical distribution of the data are therefore meaningless, and will remain so until you’ve actually educated yourself on the overall station data.

But I’m not holding my breath on that happening any time soon.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 4:05 pm

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer the question.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 12:18 pm

Did your textbook even discuss metrology, uncertainty, and how to propagate it? My guess is that it didn’t. None of mine did till I got into the engineering lab and was taught by the professors that the correct answer was not an average of everyone’s results because each workstation had different equipment – i.e. multiple measurements of different things using different measuring devices. Just like in temperature measurements around the globe.

What did *you* teach your students on this subject? I pretty sure it wasn’t in the textbook.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:22 pm

“the correct answer was not an average of everyone’s results”

I mentioned much this same idea to Willis Eschenbach after he tried to pretend that his mere arithmetic averaging of sea level tidal gauge datasets “proved” that the Church & White sea level trend calculations, published in the peer reviewed scientific literature, were “wrong”.

Not surprisingly, he continued to pretend away anyway, LOL.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:05 pm

For a man who claims to teach engineering statistics you write like a teenager with a lot of angry replies and blog wide insults.

You lose credibility when you behave like this.

MGC
Reply to  Sunsettommy
April 6, 2022 9:20 pm

sunset –

The real insults here are all the illogical and irrational “arguments” that try to pretend away reality with half truths and false information.

Reply to  MGC
April 7, 2022 4:34 am

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer my question.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

Your continued refusal to provide a simple book title and author is very illuminating.

Reply to  MGC
April 7, 2022 6:49 am

But YOU don’t explain it as a “teacher” you avoid discussing the fine details completely which is why I think you are bogus.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 3:47 pm

I hate droids—/whack/

paul courtney
Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 4:10 pm

MGC: There exists an average weight of people IF you count and weigh them all, every one. Any fewer and you don’t have enough data to say “average of people”, but you could fudge it.

Now, if you can determine the narrative, you can plan your fudge. For instance, if you want to show people are gaining weight over time, you can adjust the past average weight downward (the people they didn’t count in the thirties and forties were skinny, so……). See, I do know what the worldwide clisci community says. And does.

MGC
Reply to  paul courtney
April 4, 2022 9:16 pm

“There exists an average weight of people IF you count and weigh them all, every one”

Oh please. Yet another utterly ridiculous nonsense “response”.

If you measure a decent representative sample, you can get a *very* good idea of what the actual average is. Same with global temperatures. Pretending otherwise remains nothing but pathetically childish hiding from reality.

And then we have another blind parroting of the totally made up out of thin air “they adjusted the past downward” denier nonsense.

Yeah right, they “adjusted” farmer’s and gardener’s long publically available records from all over the world that clearly demonstrate how growing seasons have been increasing over time because of the warming trend.

You guys should be truly ashamed of yourselves with all these laughably nonsensical and totally bogus “arguments” that you bring to the table. What an anti-science disgrace.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 6:00 am

Show some studies where rising night time Tmin temperatures pose an “existential” risk to humans. Without that risk, why are we destroying current electricity production?

99.999% show high temperatures being the problem.

You have yet to provide any references that back up your criticisms or assertions. You won’t be considered to be more that a troll if you continue without showing some studies to back you up.

Simple logic tells you that rising night time temperatures will ameliorate the need for heating at night thereby reducing energy use. That’s Tmin in case you don’t know.

Again, show some references.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:00 am

Here we go now with the typical “move the goalposts” routine.

The question, Jim, was whether it is warming or not. You fools tried to pretend it wasn’t. Now you’ve essentially acquiesced, Jim, in moving on to “bu bu bu bu is it really a problem”, to admitting that you were just blowing smoke on that question. So disingenuous.

Jim also asks: “why are we destroying current electricity production?”

We’re not. Yet another made up out of thin air so-called “skeptical” claim.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 7:15 am

Here we go again. More troll bait. WUWT has a new troll.

Come on dude, put some facts behind your assertions. Simply “declaring the truth” doesn’t fly here.

Tmin increases are a good thing. You may call that moving the goalposts, but that is your problem to refute not mine.

Tmin’s are increasing, that will raise an “average” temperature” while hiding the reason for the change.

Like it or not an average is only the center of a normal distribution. The other statistical parameters are just as important as the mean. If you can’t quote them, then neither can you claim the average shows anything.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:17 pm

Your evasions are destroying your credibility, why can’t YOU get on with the discussion?

I no longer believe that you taught Engineering Statistics because you keep avoiding discussing it in the thread where it should be EASY for you to talk about.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 6:23 am

“Oh please. Yet another utterly ridiculous nonsense “response”.

If you measure a decent representative sample, you can get a *very* good idea of what the actual average is. Same with global temperatures. Pretending otherwise remains nothing but pathetically childish hiding from reality.”

You haven’t addressed my questions about an average. Why?

An average (mean) is meaningless unless you also provide the statistical parameters that define the distribution. Things like standard deviation/variance, kurtosis, skewness.

Please post these parameters for the GAT so we can know what the anomaly distribution looked like. Then find the same information for the real temperatures that are used to calculate the GAT anomalies. Without this information, YOU are the one waving your hands in the wind. You have no basis for claiming you know anything about the statistical parameters used in describing the distributions.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:03 am

“An average (mean) is meaningless unless blah blah blah … ”

Ridiculously false. And anyone who actually knows what kurtosis and skewness are should immediately realize what a ridiculous falsehood it is.

SMH in disbelief at the lengths some folks are willing to go to in order to pretend away reality.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 7:33 am

Keep it up MostlyGarbageCrap. Pretty soon people who deal with statistics for real work will simply start skimming your comments because they contain no useful information.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 10:07 am

Some of us have been arguing with the Gormans for months over this. They are completely impervious to any argument., and will just keep asserting things like this. They believe that the more samples you have the more uncertain the mean will be. They believe that averages tell you nothing, yet seem to be happy to accept them when talking about the pause. And as you’ve noticed they are very good at changing the argument rather than admit a mistake.

Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 11:42 am

They are completely impervious to any argument., and will just keep asserting things like this. They believe that the more samples you have the more uncertain the mean will be. “

As usual your ignorance is overwhelming. When you are measuring different things using different devices the uncertainties *DO* grow. You been shown this multiple time from the Taylor and Bevington tomes on uncertainty. And you simply say they don’t understand and dismiss their work.

They even point out that *ALL* measurements of combination of random and systematic errors. They can’t be separated out. Uncertainty only cancels when it is totally random, all systemic uncertainty has been somehow eliminated. So even multiple measurements of the same thing using the same device can see uncertainty grow purely because of the systemic error inherent in the measurements.

“They believe that averages tell you nothing,”

Again, your ignorance is amazing. Averages of the measurements of different things using different devices simply cannot tell you anything about the distribution of the measurements. You seem to think that if you just pick up random boards you see discarded in ditches or dumps you can calculate their average and get something meaningful. Something you can use to build a stud wall in a house or to use in ordering studs from the lumber yard to build a deck on the back side of your house.

“yet seem to be happy to accept them when talking about the pause.”

There are none so blind as those who will not see. I’m not happy with *any* so-called “global average temperature”. All I see is whining from the CAGW advocates when someone uses the data the CAGW advocates depend on to rub their noses in what that data shows.

The only time the goal-posts change is when you refuse to stay on the playing field and actually answer the assertions addressed to you!

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 3:31 pm

Thanks for proving my point.

Rather than rehash all the arguments people can go back to previous discussions such as this from last month

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/04/the-pause-lengthens-again-no-global-warming-for-7-years-5-months/#comment-3471360

or for some prime goalpost moving

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/15/satellite-and-surface-temperatures/#comment-3478615

And, for yet another time. I have not said Taylor and Bevington don’t understand what they write. I’ve said you don’t understand what they write.

MGC
Reply to  Bellman
April 6, 2022 7:57 pm

Bellman –

Thanks for those references. They’ve helped me better understand the wild level of irrationality that we’re dealing with here.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:51 pm

Nutter.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 10:17 am

If you measure a decent representative sample, you can get a *very* good idea of what the actual average is. “

Actually you can’t. You can only do so from statistics textbooks that assume all those measurements are 100% accurate. If they are not 100% accurate then you can only calculate the actual average to within an uncertainty interval propagated from the individual measurements.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 6:21 pm

Sorry, Tim, but no, statistics textbooks do not “assume all those measurements are 100% accurate”. I’ve taught university engineering statistics, which absolutely includes measurement uncertainty. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about. None.

Your further claim, in your follow-on screed below, that climate scientists are “totally ignorant of metrology principles” is just as utterly ludicrous and just as totally false.

You’re still just blowing smoke in order to pretend away reality.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 12:40 pm

Give me the title and author of a statistics text book that include an uncertainty interval for the data in any example and how to handle that uncertainty.

What you have taught is most certainly how to handle uncertainty in a set of MULTIPLE measurements taken from the SAME THING using the SAME device. I.e. all error is random and cancels out.

Your further claim, in your follow-on screed below, that climate scientists are “totally ignorant of metrology principles” is just as utterly ludicrous and just as totally false.”

ROFL! And yet you can’t give a single, on-point criticism of where I am wrong! I give you Berkeley Earth which states right in their data set that they assume instrument precision is the uncertainty of their data points – and then go on to show they think the precision of thermometers in the 1920’s was in the hundredths of a degree!

Jim is right. You are a troll with absolutely nothing to offer except the argumentative fallacy of Argument by Dismissal. You can’t refute anything so you just dismiss it out of hand. The mark of a true troll!

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 8:12 am

Most climate scientists are like you, totally ignorant of metrology principles. The GAT is formulated of many individual measurements of different things by different measuring devices.

Each of those measurements carry with them an uncertainty that is not a constant. When you add all those measurements together you must also add together their uncertainties. At some point the propagated uncertainty interval exceeds the sum of the temperatures thus rendering the entire process of calculating a mean a useless activity.

This applies to so many studies done today it is unbelievable. It is a consequence of university-level statistics classes never addressing uncertainty. Go to your local university and ask to look at their statistics textbooks. They *all* describe data sets as stated values only – no associated uncertainty. Even those that do something like calculating an average weight only use assumed 100% accurate data points. Like all scales are 100% accurate. So the scientists trained in those classes just assume the same thing. They will weigh 1000 people using 1000 different scales and assume the calculated mean is 100% accurate. In reality, just like temperatures, sooner or later the propagated uncertainty of each of those measurements will overwhelm the ability to sum all the weights and get a mean that actually describes the data.

And you have just sucked all this down from the climate scientists using a GAT that is truly meaningless.

Consider what you get when you add monthly temps in the NH with monthly temps in the SH? You get a bimodal distribution at best, and more likely a multi-modal distribution based on latitude bands. What does the average of a multi-modal distribution tell you?

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 3:09 pm

Essex, C., McKitrick, R., & Andresen, B. (2007). Does a Global Temperature Exist? J. Non-Equilib. Thermo., 1–27. doi: https://doi.org/10.1515/JNETDY.2007.001

Abstract: Physical, mathematical, and observational grounds are employed to show that there is no physically meaningful global temperature for the Earth in the context of the issue of global warming. While it is always possible to construct statistics for any given set of local temperature data, an infinite range of such statistics is mathematically permissible if physical principles provide no explicit basis for choosing among them. Distinct and equally valid statistical rules can and do show opposite trends when applied to the results of computations from physical models and real data in the atmosphere. A given temperature field can be interpreted as both ‘‘warming’’ and ‘‘cooling’’ simultaneously, making the concept of warming in the context of the issue of global warming physically ill-posed. (my bold)

MGC
Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 4:57 pm

there is no physically meaningful global temperature for the Earth in the context of the issue of global warming”

Utterly ludicrous. If some cataclysmic event happened that suddenly raised temperatures all over the earth by 40 degrees, to pretend that this would not be “physically meaningful” is nothing but pure nonsense.

What is even more nonsensical is people actually listening to this kind of garbage.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 5:56 pm

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer my question.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:23 pm

Now your answer is truly stupid especially when you want to use the super rare extinction level event to bolster your dead-on arrival argument.

Reply to  Pat Frank
April 6, 2022 6:00 pm

Pat, there is also a lot of time series problems that are totally ignored. One, why are calendar years used and not seasonal periods. Two, are the data used to calculate a GAT stationary (the mean and variance don’t change across time)?

Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 3:51 pm

No it isn’t. Another typically false WUWT excuse in order to try to pretend away reality.”

Malarky!

Canada is considered to be *colder* than Texas even during the summer. That’s not because of their minimum temps, it’s because of their max temps! Topeka, KS is colder than Mexico City not because of minimum temps but because of maximum temps.

The only one trying to pretend away reality is you.

For the purposes of gauging climate change, average temperatures are what are primarily looked at, and the first and last frost dates data just cited demonstrates that averages have definitely been going up.”

As I already told you, the average can go up just as easily from min temps going up as from max temps going up. Min temps going up just doesn’t carry the “scare factor” that max temps going up do.

The latest ag scientist study I have shows lengthening growing seasons from earlier LSF and later FFF while also showing moderating heat accumulation over the season. The only way that could happen is if min temps are going up and max temps are going down. As usual, you lose data when you look at an average. You lose at least the range and standard deviation descriptors when only looking at an average.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 4, 2022 9:20 pm

You all can try to hand wave reality away as much as you want. Temperatures are still going up no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 5:47 am

Again, put your money where your mouth is. Show some of the local/regional temperatures where this is occuring.

Here is just one data set covered here.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/09/japan-sees-no-winter-warming-in-decadestokyo-winters-havent-warmed-since-1984/

Now show us one you have that has a large growth in temperature that makes the GAT average work. Please use real temperatures, not anomalies just like this post on WUWT.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 6:19 am

Winter trends since 1988 from GISS

amaps.png
Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 7:07 am

And so an increase in winter temps is a bad thing? It means longer springs, summers, and autumns!

Would you want to destroy the current electrical production and distribution if your winter temps increase by 1.5C? Believe me, I would say bring more CO2 on. Longer growing seasons for growing crops is a good thing.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 9:30 am

And so an increase in winter temps is a bad thing?

Congratulations on winning the moving goal posts award for this hour.

You pointed to a cherry picked data set showing no warming in Japan, in winter, since 1988.

You asked where the large increases in temperature are to cancel out Japan’s lack of winter warming.

I show you the global changes for winter since 1988.

You change this to a question about whether it’s a good thing or not to be warming in winter.

In case you don’t know the world is round, the southern hemisphere is in summer when it’s winter in the north.

Here’s the trends for NH Summer since 1988.

https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/maps/

amaps.png
Reply to  Bellman
April 5, 2022 2:50 pm

I never asked for “global averaged temperatures”. I asked for local and regional graphs that show the how the GAT can be reached when there are areas with little to no growth.

You need to investigate further the conundrum you have raised.

Look at your graph for the area surrounding Japan. Do you think there is a problem between what NASA is showing versus the study shown on WUWT? I would hope so.

Please explain why NASA’s calculations for that area show such a warming while using actual, real data recorded at real existing weather stations does not show that.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 3:18 pm

“I never asked for “global averaged temperatures”.”

And I gave you a regional chart.

Look at your graph for the area surrounding Japan. Do you think there is a problem between what NASA is showing versus the study shown on WUWT?

The NASA graph shows no warming for winter over Japan, just as your JMA graph shows.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:09 pm

Jim, is this a serious question? Are you *really* not aware that the large majority of temperature measuring stations worldwide have been showing a warming trend for many, many decades? Seriously? You are genuinely unaware of this well known fact?

And are you really not aware of the large increases in temperatures in the Arctic region of the world? Some arctic stations have seen 3 to 4 degrees centigrade warming over just the past 40 years.

And are you also not aware that AGW theory predicted, decades ago, that, indeed, the arctic would be the part of the world that would warm the fastest? That’s a massively correct prediction from what you so-called skeptics ridiculously call “failed projections”.

And then you want to go and pretend that the silly little WUWT article that you referenced, that presents data from just a *single* season of the year at a *single* location, somehow represents “evidence” ?? What the bleep is the matter with you?

And, of course, you didn’t even bother to research the data for the other three seasons of the year at those locations in Japan, did you? No, of course you didn’t. But I did. On a four season basis, it has definitely been warming at those places in Japan.

Yep, as it turns out, your WUWT propaganda puppet masters dishonestly cherry picked just one little slice of the year in just one little teensy weensy part of the world, in order to intentionally deceive. And you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

I’m not only embarrassed for you but am, honestly, deeply ashamed for you, that you would blindly accept the say-so of a bunch of dishonest pseudo-scientific charlatans here on WUWT, rather than investigate what the most prestigious scientific organizations in *every* major developed nation everywhere around the world have had to say about these topics. Its truly disgraceful.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 12:48 pm

Jim, is this a serious question? Are you *really* not aware that the large majority of temperature measuring stations worldwide have been showing a warming trend for many, many decades? Seriously? You are genuinely unaware of this well known fact?”

Which temperatures? Tmin or Tmax? Or are you just looking at the mid-range averages?

Ag studies today show that the CONUS is seeing expanded growing seasons with stagnant or lower total heat accumulation over the growing season. That can’t happen if Tmax is rising. If it is Tmin rising then tell us all exactly what bad things that will cause. We await breathlessly!

Remember, a mid-range average can go up because Tmin goes up just as easily as if Tmax goes up.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 4, 2022 9:31 pm

Tim claims “moderating heat accumulation over the season”

Also false. Not that this is any surprise. Practically everything that so-called “skeptics” bring to the table is so easily demonstrated to be false.

75% of measurement stations in the U.S. are showing an increasing trend in growing degree days:

https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-growing-degree-days

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 6:49 am

“Tim claims “moderating heat accumulation over the season”
Also false. Not that this is any surprise. Practically everything that so-called “skeptics” bring to the table is so easily demonstrated to be false.”

Malarky! Why don’t you do some *real* research instead of just making unsupported claims.

From http://www.nature.com/scientificreports
Published online 3 May 2018

“US Agro-climate in the 20th Century: Growing Degree-Days, First and Last Frost, Growing Season Length, and Impacts on Crop Yields”

“The trends in the CONUS agro-climate with respect to agricultural production, in conclusion, can be characterized by decreased heat accumulation during a fixed crop growing season for the majority of commodity crops, and lengthening of the climatological growing season for all crops studied. This implies that these two agro-climate indicators, counter each other as a lengthened CGS means increased availability of heat accumu-
lation (in cases where producers and managers actually adapt to a longer CGS), whereas heat accumulation over time has decreased, which results in longer time (seasons) required for crop maturity. Hence, the actual crop yield impacts that different cropping regions have experienced would be dictated by a complicated balance between the lengthening of CGS and the decrease in heat accumulation. ”

Before you start calling someone a liar you need to make sure you have some basic facts in hand.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:23 pm

“unsupported claims” ?? You were given a valid, verifiable reference. Thanks for yet another outright LIE, Tim.

And I don’t see your reference as invalidating what I stated, which was that “75% of measurement stations in the U.S. are showing an increasing trend in growing degree days”. In fact, figure 1b of the paper you reference looks like it confirms my statement.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 5:45 am

If 75% of the stations in the US are showing a warming trend then how can the national average for heat accumulation during the expanding growing season be stagnant to down? Use your brain for once!

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 8:03 am

Just as you’ve been arguing all along, Timmy Boy, mere averages don’t tell the whole story.

Again, figure 1b of your own reference supports my statement that 75% of the stations in the US are showing a warming trend.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 1:06 pm

“Again, figure 1b of your own reference supports my statement that 75% of the stations in the US are showing a warming trend.”

And now we are back to the canard that the average of an average of an average can tell us a believable trend line.

BTW, Fig 1 in the article is on GROWING DEGREE-DAYS, not temperature. It’s apparent you don’t even know what degree-days are! Growing degree-days can go up because of longer growing seasons without any change in Tmin or Tmax.

You just keep on showing yourself to be a troll! Change your name and come back and try to convince us that you actually know something on the subject and aren’t just a CAGW troll.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:45 pm

Timmy, I’m fully aware of what growing degree days are, thank you.

If growing degree days are increasing, and figure 1b shows that in around 75% of the country, they are increasing, then there must be some kind of a warming trend occurring at those locations … even if Tmin and Tmax should happen to remain unchanged for some of them.

My statement still stands: 75% of the stations in the US are showing a warming trend.

Reply to  MGC
April 7, 2022 6:29 pm

You do *not* understand degree-days. The more days you have with temperatures above the set point the higher the degree-days value gets. There doesn’t have to be any warming trend at all. In fact the trend can actually be going down while the total degree-value goes up!

As usual you just prove yourself to be nothing but a troll, and a bad one at that!

Reply to  MGC
April 4, 2022 3:52 pm

You do understand that last frost dates may or may not actually affect an average. It is one day a year, not a group of days like a month. It also depends on what the Tmax is for those days whether you see any change or not.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 4, 2022 9:21 pm

Jim, temperatures are still going up no matter how much you may want to try to pretend otherwise.

A very simple measure of total heat accumulation, seasonal growing degree days, has been on an increasing trend at 75% of measurement stations here in the U.S.

https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-growing-degree-days

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 4:42 am

Read this and understand it. It refutes your assertions.

From the study:

Overall, we find that the observed changes in agroclimate, were beneficial for crop yields in the CONUS, albeit some crop and region specific exceptions.”

I expect you know little about farming and purchasing the correct variety of seed for the soil and temperatures in your fields.

I grew up shoveling out chicken poop from chicken coops. That is, working on farms doing everything. Believe me, WEATHER can be devastating to crops, climate change not so much.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:07 am

Jim, your quote says nothing, nothing, nothing at all about the actual question that has been on the table, which is … is it warming or not.

Another typical “move the goalposts” example. So disingenuous.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 8:02 am

Actually over the last 7+ years it has not been “warming” according to UAH.

You want to tell us if Tmax or Tmin has been falling? If you want to be an expert, you should know the answer off the top of your head.

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 4:45 am

“Jim, temperatures are still going up no matter how much you may want to try to pretend otherwise.”

Tell us where. Narrow your view from a “GAT” temperature anomaly to more local. I know you can find numerous locations that have little to no temperature anomaly increase over the last 150 years. That means you must find locations with a 3 degree increase to make the average anomaly come out to 1.5 degrees.

Put some data behind your assertions.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:10 am

The data you ask about has been freely available at a multitude of locations for a long, LONG time, Jim. How about you do some REAL research of your own for a change (i.e. don’t just blindly accept whatever anti-science drivel that WUWT wants to vomit into your empty skull).

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 7:38 am

Just as I thought. You are a troll. You have no data to back up your assertaoooons. Come back when you have educated yourself.

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:35 pm

If you are truly unaware of this data that you are asking about, Jim, then you have zero business discussing any of this topic.

These are very basic, well known facts that anyone who wants to legitimately engage in climate change discussion should already be well aware of. If you are truly unaware, then the climate troll here is no one but you, pal.

Genuinely educate yourself for a change and then maybe we can have a legitimate discussion.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 9:01 am

Have you posted one measly reference or graph? You are a troll. Who is paying you?

MGC
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 6, 2022 2:13 pm

Earlier, Jim stated:

“I know you can find numerous locations that have little to no temperature anomaly increase over the last 150 years.”

So here’s the giant elephant-in-the-room question:

Why do Jim’s comments indicate that he is not equally aware of the data at hundreds and hundreds of other locations, which all show a clear warming trend that’s been in place for decades and decades? Why?

Oh never mind. We all know why, including Jim himself.

Jim knows that if he ever actually looked into the totality of the data, published by the most prestigious scientific organizations in the world, then his fairy tale world of denier delusions would be ripped to shreds. And Jim just can’t accept that.

So instead, Jim just blindly accepts whatever biased, dishonest, cherry picked propaganda that WUWT wants to vomit into his empty skull. Like that totally disingenuous cherry picked dataset he just referenced the other day, of just one season of the year in just one little teensy weensy part of the world.

If Jim wants to engage in any kind of legitimate discussion of climate change, then he has to investigate the totality of the data, not just certain cherry picked parts that he can pretend are “supportive” of his anti-science worldview. But Jim has never done so, despite months and months if not years and years of opportunities.

And to all appearances, Jim has no intention of doing so any time soon. Thus, its difficult to imagine why much of anything that Jim has to say about climate change would be genuinely worthy of consideration.

Apparently, Jim just wants to play the climate troll, nothing more.

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 5:18 pm

Troll answer. Fail again.

Answer the question.

“You claim to have taught “engineering statistics” at college. I would like to obtain the book(s) you used in your classes. Please tell us the title and the author. An ISBN number would work also.”

Reply to  MGC
April 5, 2022 7:45 am

No it isn’t. Another typically false WUWT excuse in order to try to pretend away reality.”

ROFL! Of course high temps are what is used to judge the warmth of a local climate. It’s why Dallas is considered to be warmer than Toronto! It’s why San Diego is considered to be warmer than Seattle!

the first and last frost dates data just cited demonstrates that averages have definitely been going up. “

Of course they have. But averages give you *NO* information about the temperature profile. No range, no standard deviation, no minimums, no maximums, no quartile information. Have you ever heard of the 5-factor statistical description? Or do you just always assume all data fits a Gaussian curve?

“It is worth noting however that the CO2 warming mechanism does in fact influence minimum temperatures more than maximum temperatures. It was predicted decades ago that this would be the case, and it is what is actually observed. That’s another correct AGW projection that so-called “skeptics” disingenuously ignore.”

You are ignoring the inconsistency in your assertions. Warmer minimums won’t cause crop failures and global starvation – which the AGW advocates claim will happen in the next ten years (always 10 years in the future, why is that). Higher minimums won’t cause species loss – another AGW claim.

The AGW projections *always* assume that the average is going up due to higher max temps. ALWAYS! Earth is going to turn into a cinder if we don’t eliminate fossil fuels and cause starvation in poor countries.

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 7:56 pm

More Timian handwaving in order to pretend away the reality of a warming world. Not to mention poor Timian reading comprehension skills.

Here’s what was stated: “the CO2 warming mechanism does in fact influence minimum temperatures more than maximum temperatures”

Tim’s poor reading comprehension somehow got him to imagining that this must mean that maximum temperatures won’t increase much at all, if any.

But of course that is not anywhere near what it actually means.

I’m embarrassed for Tim to see that he’s not even at a 7th grade level of reading comprehension.

Please read more carefully next time, son!

Reply to  MGC
April 6, 2022 1:17 pm

You totally miss the point that increasing Tmax is what will cause crop failures, desertification, species loss, etc – *NOT* rising Tmin.

It is Tmax that the climate scientists claim are rising because they are predicting things that only a rising Tmax can cause.

At least you are finally admitting that it is rising Tmin that is causing the temperature rise in the average of the average of the average temperature values the climate scientists are seeing.

Give up your defense of CAGW – the evidence simply doesn’t support it. From ag studies to consecutive record crop harvests over the past twenty years to the greening of the earth by more than 10% since 1980 everything points to a rising Tmin from the CO2 increase (as well as providing more plant food) and from a holistic view of the biosystem known as the Earth that is all a GOOD thing, not an existential threat!

MGC
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 3:49 pm

Still pretending that Tmax is “not” rising simply because Tmin is rising faster?

Try again, Timmy.

April 3, 2022 3:31 pm

Lord M – Just for laughs ( and also to avoid doing any actual work on this dreary Sunday afternoon in Ontario), I copied last month’s UAH 1979-2022 LT graph, and sketched on it the current Monckton Pause. I also sketched on the previous (1997-2014) Monckton Pause, greatly celebrated at the time but now languishing forlornly in the mists of antiquity. Here it is.

(As I’m only a commenter, the JPEGs that I upload always come out too small to see the details, but you can click on them and they open at full size in a separate tab or window).

Yes I know that your lordliness used RSS for the previous pause, but in those years there wasn’t that much difference between the two satellite services; it was in those heady days before RSS adjusted itself into alarmist territory. And it’s just an illustration anyway.

What can one deduce from this inconsequential little exercise? What I (cynic, skeptic, long-c0vid-survivor, dεnier from the top of my head to the soles of my feet) deduce is that there’s a temperature series with an apparently monotonal increase of about 0.12°C per decade, with a high-frequency spikiness due in part to all those niños and niñas running around and getting underfoot, and the occasional volcano to smack them down*.

The high frequency variation creates an opportunity for a peer of the realm with a mathematical bent to do some least-squares fitting and produce horizontal lines, which he then lordishly posts on WUWT with a striking display of erudition, fuelled by an apparently limitless vocabulary.

I look forward to these posts, not because the horizontal lines teach me anything, but because I get a chuckle from the aristocratically understated humour contained in the lordly posts. Plus, I usually get to learn a new word. Today was a double offering – “comital” and “frit” (I had to look them both up!).

With respect, your eminence, thank you for your explanation of the role of feedback; it’s a nice succinct demonstration of one of the many reasons why “mainstream” climate science gets it so wrong. Unfortunately, simple though it is, and even though each time you explain it, it gets even simpler, it is still probably beyond the intellectual capabilities of most of the opposing team (and those who could understand it will undoubtedly just dismiss it as a denialist fabrication).

  • – If I look at that chart long enough, I seem to see that the monotonal increase may actually be flattening in the last few years (perhaps presaging a downturn?)
Pause for thought.jpg
Reply to  Smart Rock
April 3, 2022 5:15 pm

The crest of a wave. From here it will level out and begin to decline. There is no other possibility. That is when the climate zombies will start to awaken from their deep nightmare.

DeFries and 65 year cycles.JPG
Reply to  Mike
April 3, 2022 5:17 pm

AMO peaking…

AMO.JPG
Reply to  Mike
April 3, 2022 5:23 pm

Central Europe measurements and Antarctic ice core.
How much evidence do we need?
The only reason that co2 is suspected as the culprit for the modern milding is due to the timing with natural cycles. They will of course diverge (they already are) more and more as the time goes on

centraleurpoeantarcicatemps.JPG
dk_
Reply to  Mike
April 3, 2022 7:35 pm

Zombies awaken?
Aside from being a mixed metaphor, “Ain’t zombies. Them boys is jest stupid!” – RAH

Derg
Reply to  Smart Rock
April 4, 2022 1:01 am

Hockey stick away

leitmotif
April 3, 2022 3:56 pm

The new Pause lengthens: now 7 years 6 months
By using this piecewise approach to global mean temperature history you are falling into the trap laid by Skeptical Science years ago.

The Escalator – How contrarians/realists view global warming

https://skepticalscience.com/escalator

BS though it is, to the casual reader it is a very powerful piece of comparative logical thinking.

So, a 7 years 6 months pause? Climate alarmists will say it’s the long term trend that counts.

The alarmists will choose the parameters that shows them to be right and the media will back them to the hilt and in some cases so will governments.

Stop this nonsensical update, Brench. It doesn’t help.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 5:34 pm

Climate alarmists will say it’s the long term trend that counts.”
Too which we should reply…define ”long term” There is usually no answer – rendering their comment stillborn.

leitmotif
Reply to  Mike
April 3, 2022 6:07 pm

Yeah, right. CNN and the BBC will collapse with shame. You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this, Mike.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 6:38 pm

I’m not suggesting they will stop flogging the dead horse. That will happen slowly and one by one. But the need to shine a light on the bullshit remains….

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 6:21 pm
Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Sunsettommy
April 3, 2022 8:38 pm

So bellman plagiarized SkepticalScience, amusing.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 10:10 pm

Leitmotif should stop whining. These articles on the Pause will continue for as long as the Pause continues. It may well end with the next large el Nino: but it serves to illustrate, graphically, the failure of global temperatures to rise anything like as fast as the climate Communists had originally predicted. If Leitmotif does not want to read these articles, he is under no obligation to do so.

As to the “escalator”, as an architect I know that if the runs are long and the rises are few the slope will be gentle. And the runs – the Pauses – are certainly long. They are not what one would expect on the basis of the climate fanatics’ predictions.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 4, 2022 7:33 am

Stair steps make me very skeptical of what is going on.

First, for temps to continue on at the high values of an El Nino it means CO2 must have “tipping” points that are passed and permanently warm the globe. I really need to see proof of what mechanism is at work to cause this.

Second, UAH shows a vastly different thing going on with temps. See the attached figure. The return to zero of both La Nina’s and El Ninos are more like what should happen with an earth that tends to an average value. It also make the stair step theory very bogus.

monthly UAH anomaly.png
leitmotif
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 5:07 pm

There is no pause, you dolt, Brench. There is also no GHE or ECS.

Stop your sophistry and maybe people like Antonio Gutteres will stop telling us it is Code Red.

Ari Okkonen
April 3, 2022 4:39 pm

North-Atlantic Sea Surface temperature has already dropped since 2016.

Atlantic_SST_2016_2021_A.png
leitmotif
April 3, 2022 6:28 pm

Feedbacks???

FFS, the only feedbacks are for bogus climate scientists as they open and close their tills!

The sun heats the planet. The planet heats the atmosphere.

END OF!

Reply to  leitmotif
April 3, 2022 10:12 pm

Leitmotif – not for the first time – displays his ignorance. If there are no feedbacks, then there is no likelihood of warming fast enough or severe enough to be apocalyptic. it is because of the imagined large feedback response to tiny direct warming by noncondensing greenhouse gases that climatology has erroneously predicted large warming. No amount of childish shouting on the part of Leitmotif will alter that fact, which is becoming ever more widely known and discussed.

leitmotif
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 5:17 pm

Leitmotif – not for the first time – displays his ignorance.

I think ignorance is in your domain, Brench.

WTF are you talking about, Brench? You do realise that you believe in warming by some feedbacks and I don’t believe in feedbacks or warming at all.

Do you actually read before you comment?

If there were feedbacks they would have been measured by now.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN MEASURED. NO WARMING HAS BEEN MEASURED

Science 1 Brench 0.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 5, 2022 8:24 pm

Don’t be silly. Though no individual feedback process can be quantified by measurement or observation, or even quantitatively distinguished from the forcings that engendered it, the fact that feedbacks exist and cause warming can be very simply demonstrated by considering the position at the temperature equilibrium of 1850. The reference or pre-feedback temperature that year was the 263 K sum of the 255 K emission temperature and the 8 K direct warming by preindustrial noncondensing greenhouse gases. Yet the observed temperature that year was 287 K. The 24 K difference between 287 K and 263 K was feedback response.

The climate is a complex dynamical system. Therefore, it contains feedback processes. Those feedback processes cause feedback responses that have had the effect of elevating global mean surface temperature above what it would have been if there had been no feedback processes in the climate.

In any dynamical system – such as the climate – in which feedback processes operate, the norms of control theory are applicable. Climatology has flouted those norms to a fundamental degree by overlooking the fact that the 255 K emission temperature itself engenders a feedback response, and attributing all of that feedback response to, and adding it to, the actually minuscule feedback response to direct warming by greenhouse gases.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 6, 2022 1:33 pm

I’m not a big fan of the “feedback” analysis of the Earth’s system. Positive feedback phenomenon in nature typically move into a run-away condition sooner or later unless some kind of separate limiting process intervenes. I have never seen anyone articulate what that intervening process might be.

But you *do* make a convincing argument for it!

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 6, 2022 2:41 pm

In fact, the system response to feedback is rectangular-hyperbolic. It is only where the feedback response as a fraction of the output signal (in climate, the output signal is equilibrium sensitivity) exceeds 0.5 that the system is in any danger of runaway feedback.

If one were to believe IPCC, with its feedback fraction 0.75, then the climate would indeed be grossly unstable. But it isn’t, and it isn’t.

Provided that the feedback fraction is below 0.5, there is no reason at all to expect that runaway feedback will occur. Our paper has a nice graph showing the rectangular-hyperbolic response curve, and showing that after correction of the error the entire interval of possible feedback fractions is safely below 0.3, where the curve is not too different from linearity.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 6, 2022 2:51 pm

Leit, the sun is 30% brighter now than it was 4 billion years ago. And yet the surface of Earth has not fried.

Negative feedback is the reason. Mostly, feedback from the water cycle, which includes fractional cloud cover.

There’s no doubt that the terrestrial climate is dominated by negative feedbacks in response to positive perturbations. Were that not true, the climate would have zoomed off into boiling-ocean-land long ago.

Christopher is correct.

marty
April 4, 2022 12:53 am

Please can someone explain in lay man’s language the feedback argument towards the end of this piece

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  marty
April 4, 2022 8:24 am

It all has to do with the “equilibrium climate sensitivity” value, ECS. The feedback amplifier analogy was first used years ago by climate disaster proponents to calculate an ECS value of 3+ °C/(W/m2). What CMoB has done is to take this same analogy and show that this calculation is wrong because it neglected the signal at the input of the amplifier caused by the sun shining on the Earth. After accounting for this signal, the ECS value dropped to ~1.2 °C/(W/m2), which indicates there is no “climate emergency”.

Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 5, 2022 7:08 am

Succinct and well put! I see no one has refuted your point!

leitmotif
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2022 5:19 pm

Except that it is b0ll0cks.

There is no ECS or else there would be data to support it.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 5, 2022 8:29 pm

Ex definitione, ECS – equilibrium doubled-CO2 sensitivity – is the final warming that may be expected to occur once the climate system has resettled to equilibrium following a perturbation equivalent to the 3.5 Watts per square meter radiative forcing by doubling the CO2 in the air.

It is known down to the quantum level how it is that the interaction between CO2 molecules and photons of radiation in CO2’s absorption wavebands induces an oscillation that warms the surrounding air. It is known from simple calculations based on the equilibrium of 1850 that feedback response to such direct warming or temperature exists. It follows, therefore, that there is such a quantity as ECS. The question is not whether ECS exists but what is its magnitude? As the head posting explains, after correction of climatology’s elementary control-theoretic error there is no longer any legitimate expectation that ECS will be anything like as elevated as IPCC et hoc genus omne profiteer by inviting us to imagine.

Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 5, 2022 9:08 am

Monte Carlo has neatly encapsulated our main point. The clahmatawlagists forgot the Sun was shining and is responsible or nearly all the feedback response, but they erroneously blamed greenhouse-gas warming for all the feedback response.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
April 5, 2022 4:16 pm

Thank you CMoB and Tim for the kind words.

leitmotif
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 5, 2022 5:20 pm

You obviously need daily reassurance.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 5, 2022 8:32 pm

If the furtively pseudonymous leitmotif cannot contain its habitual and gratuitous discourtesy, it should really not seek to interpose itself in these threads. It is not learned in the relevant sciences; it is strikingly ignorant of their elements; and it seems not to know how to be polite at all. It should fall silent.

Reply to  leitmotif
April 7, 2022 6:55 am

Do you have anything better to offer besides dead replies?

April 4, 2022 1:08 am

They’ve only just started to implement the green green-insanity reset, and almost before it’s begun, all the politicians are deluged by problems with voters obsessed with the very petty problem that its destroying their standard of living as the cost of fuels and everything else rises.

And, they are only in the foothills. Watching the green fanatics, is rather like watching someone who said they were planning to climb mount Everest, fail to climb the steps to the airplane to take them to India.

For years they’ve done nothing but talk about reducing fossil fuel usage, and then Putin forces just a small fraction of what they’ve done nothing but talk about for decades, and the brown stuff immediately hits the fan within days.

April 4, 2022 2:58 am

Dear Viscount Monckton of Brenchley,

I appreciate your eminent teams outstanding work on climate feedbacks. I commend your efforts of bringing the truth out to the public.  I personally believe and always will that the truth with trump politics and science. I have 2 points and a question for you. 
 
I would like to raise my 1st point,  when using 1991 as a benchmark for climate observations and model comparisons, no one has firstly made an allowance for the fact that the first few years from about 1991-1994 was influenced by the eruption on Mt Pinatubo in June 1991.
A temporary temperature decrease from Pinatubo can be clearly seen in both the surface and satellite records. The result of this is it depresses the temperatures at the very start of the time period and hence reduces the (possible) Greenhouse warming trend by maybe 0.03K/per decade which reduces the approximate 0.16K/decade to about 0.13K/decade. 20% of warming can be attributed to the fact that there was a volcano at the start of the time interval.
See (Christy et al 2017)

The second point is my calculations highest plausible climate sensitivity are as follows;

Taking a co2 doubling reference sensitivity as 1K,

The Clausius-Clapeyron relationship according to Wijngaarden and Happer 2020,2021 (WH20,21) is a 6% increase in water vapour per degree C.  If the 24K feedback response in 1850 was to increase by 6% with a 1C reference degree warming for a Co2 doubling it will yield a feedback response by 6% percent of 24K which equates to 1.44K producing an ECS of approximately 2.5K.
However this assumes that the concentration of water vapour is directly and linearly proportional to the radiative forcing and hence warming.  In reality again according to (WH20,21) and also the IPCC, the warming is logarithmic to its concentration making the feedback response will be much lower.

I would finally like to ask a question about the non linearity of feedback response to reference temperature. In a post back in 2020 just before you submitted your current draft that has been sitting with the journal for 15 months.  See link

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/10/17/nature-abandons-science-and-embraces-uniformitarian-totalitarianism/

You mentioned that your team was able to quantify the feedback response if there were no non condensing greenhouse gases (NCGHG) present e.g if the reference temperature only consisted of the emission temperature e.g 255K.  Then obviously if we add in the 8K NCGHG signal this will bring the reference temperature up to 263 K in 1850 producing a feedback of 24K.  I am aware that the feedback must respond in strict proportions between the 255K emission temperature and the 8K NCGHG signals.

You mentioned the following;

“We were able to calculate that feedback response numerically, having first prescribed the three nonlinearities in the curve of feedback response with temperature. Those nonlinearities are caused by the Clausius-Clapeyron-mandated increase in specific humidity with atmospheric temperature (in the atmospheric window only), and below the mid-troposphere, at which altitude, contrary to all the models’ predictions, no such increase has occurred); the increase in the Planck sensitivity parameter with temperature; and the rectangular-hyperbolic response of the system-gain factor (the ratio of equilibrium sensitivity to the directly-forced warming that had triggered the feedback response) and hence of all equilibrium climate sensitivities to the feedback fraction (i.e., to the fraction of equilibrium sensitivity represented by feedback response).”

My question is if you can elaborate on the above quote a little more?

Thankyou for taking the time to read this

Many thanks
TheSunDoesShine

Reply to  TheSunDoesShine
April 5, 2022 8:36 pm

TheSunDoesShine makes some excellent points. He is right about Pinatubo, but it is necessary to keep the analysis as simple as possible here, so I tend to neglect what Cicero used to call a secondaria consideratio. He is also about the quasi-logarithmic effect of warming by greenhouse gases, including water vapor. As to how we conducted the numerical calculation, this is quite complex and beyond the scope of the current column, and is also still awaiting peer review.

April 4, 2022 3:04 am

Pay attention to the history of the planet.

NASA global climate change.png
April 4, 2022 8:15 am

It is time to start building coal-fired power stations again.

An alternative view of this issue, with the “generated electricity” data updated to 31/3/2022.

GB-Electricity_Coal-Nuclear_Jan2020-July2026_3.png
Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Mark BLR
April 4, 2022 8:55 am

Looks like time to go back to horse-and-buggy.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
April 5, 2022 4:20 pm

I see no one understood my point about the UK generation graph—without electricity, it is back to the days of horses-and-buggys.

Bill Rocks
Reply to  Mark BLR
April 5, 2022 4:58 am

Best wishes to our friends in the UK. You will need more natural gas ASAP.

Robert of Texas
April 4, 2022 10:52 am

You sure have a lot more faith in the “Intelligence Services” than I have. The U.S. Socialist Party (i.e. the Dim-ocrats) have thoroughly burrowed into every government agency and department with their non-elected bureaucrats to the point that government barely functions anymore. It all starts with the indoctrination of the children – make true believers out of children and elections really stop mattering. If you want to put a stop to whole-sale stupidity, you have to take education back from the hacks.

Reply to  Robert of Texas
April 5, 2022 2:30 pm

Robert of Texas is right about education. It is now mere totalitarian propaganda in most schools. But don’t underestimate the intelligence services: even where the leadership has been corrupted by contamination at the political level, there are some very good people below the top of the tree, and they do not like the capitulation of Western politicians to the climate narrative.

Reply to  Robert of Texas
April 6, 2022 1:36 pm

Check this out, Robert. A possible ray of hope.

ResourceGuy
April 4, 2022 1:50 pm

We need a Truth and Reconciliation Court for climate crusaders along the lines of Mandela’s court in SA.

Rusty
April 5, 2022 9:10 am

Anyone with 1/2 a brain (that leaves out most liberals), knows what affects our planet is that “tiny” star about 93 million miles away. Every 11 years, the solar cycle changes. Cycle 24 & now 25 have been pretty quiet. When less CME’s hit our planet, it doesn affect the weather patterns.
We all know what global warming/climate change/climate emergency is about. Taking away freedoms, more government control.

KayFlyte
April 5, 2022 9:13 am

“Birds, bees and bats by the billion are being blended or batted out of the sky.”

Alliteration anyone ? He could have substituted “blue” for “sky”.

Dan G
April 5, 2022 9:23 am

The Earth is over 4.5 BILLION years old. The age of the Universe of which Earth is apart is almost 14 BILLION years old.

Talk to me about global weather trends when you have data of at least 100,000 years or it is so noticeable it is unavoidable to conclude otherwise. Now is not that time.

Global warming data, bought and paid for by the elite wanting to eliminate your freedoms for the “greater good” of the elite.

Oliver Clozoff
April 5, 2022 9:25 am

Global warming is nothing but a hoax that liberals use as an excuse to boss people around and take their stuff.

April 5, 2022 9:37 am

So glad to see this report.

Dru Mist
April 5, 2022 9:38 am

Just wait until all those electric car batteries start to burn out of control and all the land is gone due to digging up the minerals needed to make those highly combustable batteries. That’s when we will see warming on a global scale.

Chickity China the Chinese Chicken
April 5, 2022 9:39 am

I call “bullshit”.
I am not starting another mother clucking countdown for something that never happens. We’ve heard this kinda BS for 50 years!

MacM
April 5, 2022 10:29 am

I’m very happy I stumbled over this site and can see Lord Monckton’s work and analysis again. I lost track of him for a very long time. He provided terrific insights into both climatology and the methods and motives of leftist fearmongers. He evidently continues to do so.
Please allow me to observe: Longer growing seasons and less need for fuel for winter warmth are never factored into the left’s nightmare climate predictions.
But every destructive weather event – storm, drought, tornado – is attributed to climate change, even though there are no more frequent or severe events than at any time in history. Such hyperbolic climate change nonsense is never refuted or disavowed by the left because it serves their grasp for power. The increase of a degree or two over a lifetime is insignificant compared to average seasonal or even daily variability in temperature. Yet, no one is tempted to predict famine, plague, floods, locusts, etc. are the result of cool in the morning and much warmer in the afternoon. It would be clear and unbelievable codswallop, (I love you Brits for this term) so there’s no advantage in it for the left and its grasp for power.
Enjoy your walk, Christopher Monckton. God bless you.

Reply to  MacM
April 5, 2022 2:28 pm

Many thanks to MacM for his very kind words. My team is continuing to try to get its work published. No one can find any material error in our conclusions, but journal editors do not want to tip the gravy-train into the gulch by being the first to publish the news that the scam is over.

Ranger Partners
April 5, 2022 11:52 am

Anthropogenic global warming is simply a specious NWO cover for Marxist wealth/power redistribution. What’s amazing is how few people swallow the propaganda whole & accept it is “scientific fact” without doing any homework. If you look at the whole statistical picture, you immediately realize our climate is mediated by repeating solar cycles, not human enterprise. The highest CO2 levels on earth were long prior to human industrialization, BTW…

Trevor Jones
April 5, 2022 2:54 pm

Also of note, CO2 has NOT gone up. Strange…. If CO2 the cause why has it remained steady? Its those pesky green plants!!

[invalid email – mod]

seth rich
April 5, 2022 5:52 pm

Been hoping for global warming for a long time now with a bunch of other New Englanders. There’s a reason everyone is moving to Florida and the south in general. 6 months of winter sucks.

Coondog Alabama
April 5, 2022 7:06 pm

There has been two HUGE HOAXES IN THE WORLD 1/ CLIMATE CHANGE 2/ THE COVID 19 VIRUS. Chinaaaa gave us 9 viruses to date the last one they lied from the start and they still are more then several years later. But climate change involves our governments North and South of the border as well as the globalists who have dreamed up this money maker for themselves and believe me it’s a money maker.

Ranger Partners
Reply to  Coondog Alabama
April 5, 2022 10:21 pm

True statement Coondog! I would add a couple other hoaxes: 1. RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA 1.0 & now 2.0; & 2. On 03 Nov 20 (technically the wee hours of 04 Nov), we went over the cliff of ORWELL (1984, Animal Farm) meets ALINSKY (Rules for Radicals) meets MARX (Das Kapital) meets CHOMSKY (Manufacturing Consent) meets MAO (On State Capitalism). Treacherous waters & the end of the beginning of the end of our Constitutional Republic – at least unless & until we outvote the coming repeat of massive, institutionalized election fraud – & take majorities in both House & Senate this year & re-elect President Trump for the 2nd time in 2024. I’d love to see Trump/DeSantis 2024 & DeSantis/? 2028.

bert33
April 5, 2022 9:45 pm

Wave power and geothermal are perennial. Wind and solar are inconstant, wind is sometimes calm, cloudy days, panels don’t work at night. Nuclear is pretty reliable until it overheats and melts down. Insulation lowers heating and cooling bills substantially. Wearing an extra overshirt or drinking ice water in the summertime get the job done too.

Ukraine; apparently 8 years worth of bad govt. business and dead civilians for 8 years prior to the russian invasion. zelensky needs to answer question in a russian court.

Ranger Partners
April 5, 2022 10:13 pm

Anthropogenic global warming is simply a specious NWO cover for Marxist wealth/power redistribution. What’s amazing is how SO MANY people swallow the propaganda whole & accept it is “scientific fact” without doing any homework. If you look at the whole statistical picture, you immediately realize our climate is mediated by repeating solar cycles, not human enterprise. The highest CO2 levels on earth were long prior to human industrialization, BTW…[had to correct a word I meant to edit]

Howard
April 5, 2022 11:16 pm

Where can I find the data for those charts?

Reply to  Howard
April 6, 2022 3:58 am

Where can I find the data for those charts?

UAH V6, lower troposphere (LT)

URL : https://www.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/v6.0/tlt/

Note that these files are usually updated between the 3rd and the 12th of the month.
I have found no discernable pattern to these delays, you just have to be patient and wait.

The “ltglhmam_6.0.txt” file at the top of the page gives Global, Northern and Southern hemisphere, and “TRPC” (Tropics, 20°N-20°S) monthly averages to 3 decimal places (3dp).

The “uahncdc_lt_6.0.txt” file at the bottom of the page gives a wider range of “zonal” averages, but only to 2dp.

HadCRUT4

URL : https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcrut4/index.html

Note the link at the top of the page to the new HadCRUT-five dataset.
As CMoB noted in the ATL article HadCRUT4 has finally been updated to December 2021. It is unlikely that there will be any further updates to HadCRUT-four.

Click on the “DOWNLOAD DATA > >” button, then in the first “table” of downloadable files click on the “monthly” link on the “Series = Global (NH+SH)/2” line.

Have fun !

Reply to  Mark BLR
April 6, 2022 3:15 pm

Note, that in order to get the current month before the official data is updated, you need to read Dr Spencer’s blog. This usually has the previous month posted with a day or two of the start of the new month.

http://www.drroyspencer.com

Reply to  Bellman
April 7, 2022 2:06 am

… Dr Spencer’s blog. This usually has the previous month posted with a day or two of the start of the new month.

I have a “personal quirk” of preferring the 3dp numbers, those blog posts (usually copied here at WUWT within 24 hours) are “only” to 2dp.

I’ll use the 2dp numbers for a “quick look / idiot check”, but with most of the other datasets being provided to 3dp I try to get as close to an “apples to apples” comparison as possible.

PS : I just tried the link to Dr. Spencer’s site and it came back with a default “Welcome to WordPress. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start writing!” page !?!
Maybe I’m unlucky in my timing and it’s down for maintenance or something …

New-pause_To-March-2022_1.png
Reply to  Mark BLR
April 7, 2022 2:41 am

It was saying “down for maintenance” last night when I was writing the comment. Hopefully it’s just a temporary glitch.

Reply to  Howard
April 6, 2022 2:33 pm

The data link is on each graph!

mendskyz
April 6, 2022 1:40 pm

I’ve always said that how insane would someone have to be to suggest that such a small data sample could predict the next 10 years which seems to be the favorite claim about the impending disaster. Every year it is “within the next 10 years”. If you take the the 800,000 years of data that they claim to have, divide it by the 4,000,000,000 years that they believe is the age of the planet they are dealing with 0.02% of the climate history and they want to tell us they know what is going to happen in the next 10 years. It is totally political, and only designed to gain as much control over the global population as they can get. Control the energy, control the world

Hubert
April 6, 2022 3:56 pm

your first picture is part of attached graphic showing the double peak 2016-2020 before expected decline like 1945-1975, because of AMO cycles you don’t talk about …

AMO-ALL.png
Patriotplumes
April 7, 2022 3:01 am

One statement one question. The earth is not an electronic circuit, and this is the basis for every climate model. Question what is the trigger for the end of civilization, how will we recognize the end?