How Much Oil Does the US Import From Russia? Why Does the US Import Oil From Russia?

Guest “The answers are: Not much and because” by David Middleton

With the criminal Soviet invasion of Ukraine, the subject of US oil imports from Russia has popped up in the news quite a few times over the past week or so. As a petroleum geologist, I cringe whenever the media discusses almost anything related to oil & gas production. This is particularly true for political commentators on both sides of the political spectrum.

There seems to be some fairly common media misconceptions regarding this subject:

  1. The importation of Russian oil is a recent development.
  2. The volume of imported Russian oil is massive.
  3. The US is dependent on Russian oil.
  4. Greenlighting the Keystone XL pipeline would eliminate these imports.
  5. Resuming oil & gas leasing in the Gulf of Mexico would eliminate these imports.
  6. Accelerating the energy “transition” to green schist would eliminate these imports (See Ron White)
  7. Biden caused this problem.

Starting with point #7, Biden didn’t cause this problem. However, everything he has done has made it worse and everything his maladministration is proposing to do, will make it yet even worse.

How Much Oil Does the US Import From Russia?

The volume of imported Russian oil varies widely on a monthly basis.

In June 2021, the US imported a record average of 844,000 barrels per day (bbl/d) from Russia.

Prior to 2002, the US imported less than 100,000 bbl/d from Russia. Since 2005, the US has imported 300,000 to 600,000 bbl/d from Russia,

While 300,000 to 600,000 bbl/d sounds like a lot…

It’s really just a drop in the bucket barrel. In December 2021, total US crude oil and refined product imports averaged a bit over 8.5 million bbl/d, only about 400,000 bbl/d came from Russia.

Crude Oil vs Petroleum Products

FEBRUARY 18, 2022
EIA expects U.S. petroleum trade to shift toward net imports during 2022

Following its historic shift to being a net exporter of petroleum in 2020, the United States continued to export more petroleum (which includes crude oil, refined petroleum products, and other liquids) than it imported in 2021. According to our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we expect net crude oil imports to increase, making the United States a net importer of petroleum in 2022.

A country is a net importer if it imports more of a commodity than it exports. Conversely, a country is a net exporter if it exports more of a commodity than it imports. Many factors affect net trade numbers because trade reflects supply and demand conditions both domestically and internationally.

Historically, the United States has been a net importer of petroleum. During 2020, COVID-19 mitigation efforts caused a drop in oil demand within the United States and internationally. International petroleum prices decreased in response to less consumption, which diminished incentives for key petroleum-exporting countries to increase production. This shift allowed the United States to export more petroleum in 2020 than it had in the past.

Also in 2020, the difference between U.S. crude oil imports and exports fell to its lowest point since at least 1985. Net crude oil imports subsequently rose by 19% in 2021 to an average of 3.2 million barrels per day (b/d) as crude oil consumption increased in response to rising economic activity. We forecast that the United States will continue to import more crude oil than it exports in 2022, reaching an estimated annual average of 3.9 million b/d. However, we expect net imports to fall to 3.4 million b/d in 2023 as domestic crude oil production increases to an all-time high of 12.6 million b/d.

Since 2010, the United States has exported more refined petroleum products, including distillate fuel oil, hydrocarbon gas liquids, and motor gasoline, among others, than it has imported. Net exports of refined petroleum products grew to 3.3 million b/d in 2020 and remained about the same in 2021. We expect petroleum product net exports will reach new highs of 3.6 million b/d in 2022 and 3.8 million b/d in 2023.

Principal contributor: Ornella Kaze

Tags: exports/imports, liquid fuels, crude oil, oil/petroleum, petroleum products

EIA

The US has been a net importer of crude oil for a long time. In 2010, the US became a net exporter of refined petroleum products. In 2020, the US became a net exporter of crude oil plus refined petroleum products. EIA anticipates that we will shift back to a net importer this year.

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), February 2022

Most of our Russian imports consist of (sort of) refined petroleum products.

The vast majority of the refined petroleum product imports consist of “unfinished oils.”

Unfinished OilsAll oils requiring further processing, except those requiring only mechanical blending. Unfinished oils are produced by partial refining of crude oil and include naphthas and lighter oils, kerosene and light gas oils, heavy gas oils, and residuum.
EIA

Why Does the US Import Oil From Russia?

The short answer is that crude oil and refined petroleum products are globally traded commodities, the US consumes about 4 million bbl/d of crude oil more than it produces and Russia produces about 5 million bbl/d of crude oil more than it consumes. Even though, the US receives only a tiny fraction of exported Russian crude oil, the material balance calculation is global.

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, based on Russian export statistics and country import statistics from Global Trade Tracker
Note: OECD is the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. EIA

The long answer is that US refinery demands match up with Russian supplies in an interesting way.

Why do we import from Russia?

U.S. West Coast (USWC) refineries rely on imports of light sweet crude oil from other countries, including Russia, because access to U.S. produced light sweet crude oil is challenged by geography, transportation and logistics.

Our refineries in the U.S. Gulf Coast (USGC) import heavier crude and unfinished oils from Russia that our complex refineries can transform into other products including gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.

Gasoline and diesel represent only a small part of Russian imports to the United States, largely going to the East Coast. The U.S. East Coast is reliant on foreign sources of refined product due to lack of local refining capacity and infrastructure to economically move products from refining centers along the USGC to markets along the eastern seaboard.

Why have Russian imports increased?

In 2021, increased Russian imports to refineries in California and Washington state have helped offset lower volumes of light sweet crude imports into California from other countries—notably Nigeria—and lower volumes of U.S.-produced crude oil shipped by rail to Washington.

Increased imports of crude oil to the USGC region in 2021 were largely driven by disruptions to U.S. Gulf of Mexico oil production caused by Hurricane Ida and have since declined.

And, since 2019, U.S. refineries have increased imports of unfinished heavy oils from Russia to help replace heavy sour crude from Venezuela that U.S. refineries can no longer import.

American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers

West coast refineries (who knew there were any?) import light sweet crude from Russia and other countries because there is a lack of pipeline capacity to deliver enough domestically produced oil to the region. Gulf Coast refineries import some heavier Russian crude to offset Venezuelan imports that are no longer available.

Keystone XL Pipeline

On Day One of his miserable maladministration, Brandon cancelled the permits for the Keystone XL Pipeline and halted its construction. This pipeline would have been able to deliver over 800,000 bbl/d to US refineries in the Midwest and Gulf Coast regions.

https://www.keystonexl.com/maps/

A year before Brandon idiotically cancelled the pipeline, TransCanada had already secured commitments from oil producers for 500,000 bbl/d for up to 20 years. This would have offset much of the crude oil we import from outside of North America.

Reversing Brandon’s moronic decision today, wouldn’t eliminate the need to import Russian oil. However, we would be one year closer to completion of the pipeline, without that moronic decision. For that matter, had the Obama maladministration not also moronically blocked its construction, it would probably already be completed.

In Nov. 2015, President Barack Obama announced his administration would not grant permits for the construction of this pipeline in order to further their commitment to fighting climate change.6 In his first week at the Oval Office, President Trump signed an executive order clearing the way for the pipeline project.7 The Republican party had believed that the construction of the pipeline will create more jobs and provide a boost to the economy. On Jan. 20, 2021, President Joe Biden rescinded the construction permit for the Keystone XL pipeline. TC Energy said it was stopping construction earlier the same day.3

Investopedia

Gulf of Mexico Leasing

While Brandon’s even more moronic (and unlawful) refusal to hold Gulf of Mexico lease sales, hasn’t significantly impacted US oil production yet, within a decade, it will likely lead to the US having to import an additional 1 million bbl/d of crude oil.

Conclusion

“Drill more, pay less. C’mon Joe. This ain’t hard.” Energy Strong

Regarding the Soviet Union’s Criminal War of Aggression Against Ukraine…

I wrote this two months ago:

If Putin seriously wants to seize Ukraine, this winter will probably be his best opportunity. With the US saddled with a dementia-ridden “president” and even less competent “vice president,” and a Congress controlled by left-wing zealots for at least the next 12 months, coupled with Putin’s ability to turn off Europe’s supply of natural gas on a whim, he is literally in the “catbird seat.” (Yes, I know I just wrote that Putin is literally in an idiomatic phrase.) That said, why would Putin risk triggering World War III? It’s not that there’s a long history of perceived weakness among Western democracies triggering wars in the past…

[…]

While I seriously doubt that the two nations who suffered most horribly during World War II would intentionally start World War III, why does this remind me of the 1930’s? Substitute Russia for Nazi Germany and Red China for Imperial Japan, toss in a healthy dose of western weakness… and the similarities are eerie.

“Renewable Energy Dogmatism” – The New Red Menace?

Needless to say, Jen “Circle Back” Psaki thinks doubling down on stupid is the answer to Russian oil imports…

White House press secretary Jen Psaki said the U.S. needs to decrease its reliance on foreign oil by switching over to renewable energy, not increasing domestic production.

Fox News

“Russian warship, go f*** yourself”

The defiant soldiers of Snake Island are actually ‘alive and well,’ says Ukraine’s navy
By Sebastian Shukla and Lianne Kolirin, CNN
Updated 3:06 PM Thu EST, Mon February 28, 2022

CNN —  The Ukrainian defenders of Snake Island – who were all feared dead after their defiant response to threats from a Russian warship – are actually “alive and well,” according to the Ukrainian Navy.

All of the soldiers on the tiny island in the Black Sea were thought to have been killed in an attack on the first day of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine last Thursday.

According to a purported audio exchange, one of the Ukrainian troops had responded to a warning from an approaching Russian vessel to lay down their weapons or face bombing by saying, “Russian warship, go f*** yourself.”

[…]

According to the navy the soldiers on the island repelled two attacks by Russian forces but in the end were forced to surrender “due to the lack of ammunition.”

The statement added that Russian attackers have completely destroyed the island’s infrastructure, including lighthouses, towers and antennas.

Russian state media also showed the arrival of the Ukrainian soldiers in Sevastopol, Crimea where they are being held.

[…]

CNN
Navy Times

“The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride”

Live updates: Zelenskyy declines US offer to evacuate Kyiv
By The Associated Press
February 25, 2022

KYIV, Ukraine — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was asked to evacuate Kyiv at the behest of the U.S. government but turned down the offer.

Zelenskyy said in response: “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride,” according to a senior American intelligence official with direct knowledge of the conversation, who described Zelenskyy as upbeat.

[…]

AP
“In this photo provided by the Ukrainian Presidential Press Office, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy delivers his speech addressing the nation in Kyiv, Ukraine, Friday, Feb. 25, 2022. Russian troops bore down on Ukraine’s capital Friday, with explosions and gunfire sounding in the city as the invasion of a democratic country fueled fears of wider war in Europe and triggered new international efforts — including direct sanctions on President Vladimir Putin — to make Moscow stop. (Ukrainian Presidential Press Office via AP)”

Reminds me of General George Patton on the relief of Bastogne…

Bastogne remained surrounded, and when the Germans demanded its sur­render, the acting commander of the 101st Airborne, Brigadier General Anthony C. McAuliffe, replied, “Nuts!” Upon hearing the now-famous response Patton said: “Any man who is that eloquent deserves to be relieved. We shall go right away.”

On Christmas Eve Patton judged that “the German General Staff is running this attack and has staked all on this offensive to regain the initiative. They are far be­hind schedule and, I believe beaten. If this is true, the whole army may surrender.”

PATTON’S FINEST HOUR

The brave and eloquent defenders of Ukraine deserve to be relieved.

If not for the November 2020 coup d’état

62 percent of voters say Putin wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine if Trump were president: poll
BY CAROLINE VAKIL – 02/25/22

A majority of American voters say that Russian President Vladimir Putin would not have invaded Ukraine had former President Trump still been in office, according to a new survey released on Friday.

A new Harvard Center for American Political Studies (CAPS)-Harris Poll survey released Friday found that 62 percent of those polled believed Putin would not be moving against Ukraine if Trump had been president. When looking strictly at the answers of Democrats and Republicans, 85 percent of Republicans and 38 percent of Democrats answered this way.

[…]

The Hill
And you thought it was Forrest Gump {/SARC}… AZ Quotes
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Derg
March 3, 2022 2:29 am

This is a long documentary, but very incite full on why Russia wants Ukraine. Also, I had no idea Ukraine had as much oil and gas.

https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 3:27 am

just imagine if Ukraine was at net zero with easy to strafe wind and solar “farms”

Bryan A
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 4, 2022 5:39 am

The stalled Russian Convoy would be easy to strafe, where’s a few A10s when you need them

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Bryan A
March 4, 2022 6:52 am

You watch MSNBC? Trashy channel. But, the Ukrainians are using Turkish drones to hit those convoys- the problem is they don’t have many.

Drake
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 4, 2022 2:06 pm

Read on Al Jazeera that more were coming. As I understand it, they are blasting fuel tank trucks and other lightly armored vehicles. Smart use of the weapon system, tanks are just stationary artillery if they do not have enough fuel to move.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 6, 2022 7:30 pm

Turkey has just delivered more to Ukraine.

In The Real World
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 5:05 am

As well as that documentary , here is an article by Schellenberger which gives a good insight about the reasons for the attack . https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-wests-green-delusions-empowered?s=r

Michael in Dublin
Reply to  In The Real World
March 3, 2022 6:33 am

A clear and succinct article. I doubt any alarmist academic will analyse his main points but only launch personal attacks.

Derg
Reply to  In The Real World
March 3, 2022 7:00 am

That was good. Thanks.

In the documentary I linked Ukraine has undeveloped gas and oil. What if Ukraine were to develop those resources and supply Europe?

I think the is the big reason Russia made its move.

n.n
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 5:44 am

Arab Spring -> Libyan coup.
Slavic Spring -> Ukranian coup.

Obama, Biden, McCain, Biden’s wars from Tripoli to Kiev. Nobel Pieces.

whiten
Reply to  n.n
March 3, 2022 7:50 am

Global war against climate, lately followed by a two year devastating global war against a novel virus.
UN EU warmongering at the finest.

Clearly a total failure on stopping, blocking or even hindering at the slightest the full and total global invasion from a virus.

The very playbook of cold blooded heartless warmongers in charge of human affairs.
Simply causing more and more unnecessary misery and unnecessary hardship.
Even to the point that some silly hot heads can not refrain from blaming everything on a virus.

cheers

whiten
Reply to  whiten
March 3, 2022 2:39 pm

n.n

It, really is painful,… n.n!!!

whiten
Reply to  whiten
March 3, 2022 3:53 pm

Don Omar – Virtual Diva

Willem Post
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 7:29 am

As part of the EU, Ukraine will be forced to adopt “net-zero, leave it in the ground”, and put up solar panels, which may be covered with snow, and wind turbines, which only work if there is wind.

Ukraine will have a great future, because it will get at least $10 to $20 billion per year, which is an enormous amount in a peanut economy. That likely will disappear into the pockets of the OLIGARCHS

Derg
Reply to  Willem Post
March 3, 2022 8:18 am

All money sent to Ukraine has been stolen. Obama was pumping large sums of taxpayer money into Ukraine.

Last edited 2 months ago by Derg
whiten
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 9:50 am

Crime and reward, in the end of the day means, basically “rightfully” so;
that nothing was ever actually stolen, but simply transferred… legitimately, under the widely accepted rule(s) of the criminal hospice “art”.

cheers

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 10:23 am

Do you know who stole it? If not, how can you be certain it was stolen?

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 1:26 pm

I have already read about this, foreign aid has become the latest method to launder tax dollars, because the recipients of the U. S. State Department’s largess do not have to provide an accounting of how they spent it. So, the Obama State Department sends a billion dollars to Ukraine, the government employees skim off their share and pass the rest on to the oligarchs who skim off their share and pass the remainder onto the industries said oligarchs control, such as Burisma, who pay all the required bribes to stay in operation, such as a direct payment of $83,000/mo. to Hunter Biden, and that’s how “business” is done in Washington D. C., one hand washes the other and everyone (politicians and bureaucrats, at least, screw the taxpayer) goes home happy. Politicians of both parties were doing it, and that’s how we got Trump, who was a breath of fresh air, certainly, but unable or unwilling to even begin to clean out the Aegean Stables.

Willem post
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 10:12 am

There is a lot of inane happy talk about replacing 200 bcm/y of Russian pipeline gas with LNG.

Excerpt from:

THE UKRAINE PLOT IS THICKENING WITH GERMANY AND FRANCE BARELY IN LOCKSTEP WITH US/UK-LED NATO
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-plot-is-thickening-with-germany-and-france-no-longer-in

Up to 40% Additional LNG Carrier Loads, if Russian Pipeline Gas Supply to Europe were Stopped  
 
Brussels career bureaucrats make the same myopic mistakes as Washington career bureaucrats

Washington Career Bureaucrats: The only beneficiaries of their “Electrify-Everything” actions are: 

1) Subsidized, multi-billion companies that supply the wind and solar systems, and 

2) Utilities, that sell much more high-priced electricity, due to implementing the tens of millions of heat pumps that do not work on colder days, and electric vehicle that have marginal usefulness and are very expensive, compared to efficient gasoline vehicles

https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/poor-economics-of-electric-vehicles-in-new-england   
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/heat-pumps-are-money-losers-in-my-vermont-house-as-they-are-in

Everyone else gets screwed with higher taxes, fees and surcharges, and higher household electric rates, as happened in Denmark and Germany. 

People are told to grin-and-bear-it, and to sacrifice, because they are “fighting” climate change, a la Don-Quixote tilting at wind mills, while the wind/solar-subsidy-collecting elites cruise around in private jets and yachts. 

Brussels Career Bureaucrats: They likely have little hands-on experience in the energy sector. They urged EU countries not to sign long-term gas supply contracts with Russia, because that would send the wrong “virtue signal” regarding “weaning the EU off fossil fuels”. Just google, if you find this incredible. 

Their myopic decisions did not foresee EU spot prices for natural gas would become “volatile”, i.e., about 5 to 10 times the prices of Russian gas, under long-term contracts.

Naïve career bureaucrats likely thought Russia would supply enough gas to lower spot prices, but Russia did not.

Various folks, including Brussels bureaucrats did not take any blame for their stupidity.
Instead, they tried besmirching Russia, but the gas system operating data did not co-operate.

However, Russia made sure to reliably provide pipeline gas, to clients with signed long-term contracts, as confirmed by Brussels, Germany, Turkey, etc. i.e., Russia was not to blame for high spot prices.

Russia has no contractual obligation to supply gas to the EU spot market.
Russia has no contractual obligation to fill the EU above- and belowground gas storage reservoirs

This was known by Brussels career bureaucrats, prior to their myopic decisions.

The net result was Europe’s energy costs increased by at least $200 BILLION per year, which offsets any benefits from Europe’s international trade.

NOTE: There is some consolation in all this. After all, there is the important “benefit” of strengthening the US/UK/EU long-term policy of squeezing/diminishing Russia.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/luongo-eu-sanctions-russia-equal-suicide-cop

LNG Consumption in Europe: Historically, the EU has imported very minor quantities of LNG, because LNG prices are about 25% to 30% higher than pipeline gas bought from Russia, under long-term contracts. That will always be the case, due to cost differences of applicable technologies.

The recent, cleverly-designed sanctions imposed on Russia did not include any restrictions on energy and materials flow from Russia to avoid additional price increases on world markets

Russia will make money, which will partially offset the cost of fighting in Ukraine, and of the long-lasting sanctions

The US/UK-led NATO will send more weapons and disguised trainers/mercenaries to Ukraine to increase the cost of fighting Ukraine
The end result will be more death and destruction lasting more than a few days.

Calculation of Additional LNG Carrier Loads

Assume an average LNG carrier capacity at 170,000 m3, equivalent to 76,500 metric ton of LNG
In 2020, world LNG demand was 360 million metric ton, equivalent to 4,706 LNG carrier loads/y. See URL
The 200 bcm/y of pipeline gas supply from Russia is equivalent to 1903 LNG carrier loads/y 

There would need to be an enormous, worldwide increase in LNG carrier loads of about (4706 + 1903)/4706 = 40.4%, if Russian gas to the EU were stopped. See table in article

There would be a gigantic, additional strain on the world’s LNG system, which would send spot prices to unprecedented levels for many years. 
At present, Europe lacks the capacity to receive and gasify that many carrier loads. 
At present, there is a significant shortage of large-capacity LNG carriers

NOTE
https://www.rivieramm.com/opinion/opinion/lng-shipping-by-numbers-36027
https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/liquefied-natural-gas-lng/lng-outlook-2021.html#iframe=L3dlYmFwcHMvTE5HX091dGxvb2svMjAyMS8

US Finally Becoming Competitive in World Markets

The US/UK-led NATO, baiting Putin to start a war in Ukraine, is one way for the US to become more competitive in international markets, at the expense of Russia, and the EU, and everyone else.

The gas shortage condition would be in place for up to 10 years, because it would take that long to build up additional:
 
– Gas production capacity, elsewhere in the world, to replace Russia’s 200 bcm/y of pipeline gas.
– LNG production plants and sending ports
– LNG carriers; average capacity 170,000 cubic meter of LNG
– LNG receiving ports and gasification plants
– Connections to existing onshore pipe systems, all while:
 
1) EU inflation would be off-the-charts
2) EU exports would dwindle.
 
NOTE: The above production and infrastructure build-ups would be in addition to what is required for the projected world-market growth of LNG

It doesn't add up...
Reply to  Willem post
March 3, 2022 12:50 pm

A useful contribution to the analysis. I’d add that Russia has been opening up new export markets in the Far East (particularly China) both through pipeline and LNG, often via the Arctic route (they were still using that in December, despite the earlier icing last year, resulting in some tankers being stuck in the ice that was too thick for them to plough through until rescued by the atomic icebreakers). Also, some of their export is to satellites like Belarus.

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 1:57 pm

Very inciteful indeed. This work by John Mearsheimer is helpful in understanding the history as well.

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin John J. Mearsheimer

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

Not to disagree with David’s emphasis on energy – oil, nuclear, and renewables – but if those incentives were subtracted from the equations, Putin would still be coveting Ukraine because it is a buffer between his country and the western ideologies that he despises and which are an existential threat to Communists.

Muskox12
Reply to  Derg
March 3, 2022 2:56 pm

Read this article, “The Forgotten Potential of Ukraine’s Energy Reserves”… https://hir.harvard.edu/ukraine-energy-reserves/

Ron Long
March 3, 2022 2:32 am

A lot of good data and expert insider knowledge, thanks, David. So oil, in all its refined stages, is an International Commodity. Then the price of a barrel, or equivalent, comes into question, ie, did all of the thrashing around by the Biden Administration cause changes in the price, and therefore a large surge in profitability, of oil producers? The Russian misadventure in Ukraine clearly has done so. Follow the money?

Derg
Reply to  Ron Long
March 3, 2022 3:52 am

Weren’t Oil prices going up before Ukraine?

Derg
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 6:50 am

Regardless we were screwed regardless from Brandon’s regime. He and the CIA just got us there faster.

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 9:37 am

Looks sort of like a hockey stick.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Ron Long
March 3, 2022 10:26 am
fretslider
March 3, 2022 2:52 am

Putin can’t have failed to notice how the West is crumbling from within. Political correctness and the corrosive woke identity politics, the disgust at Western achievements in history – even the industrial revolution. My own view is the UK at least has been dumbing down education for the last 30 to 40 years and replacing it with indoctrination and correct-think, the following explanation of the war in Ukraine appears to be aimed at a young Sesame Street audience, not adults.

“So Ukraine is a country in Europe, it exists next to another country called Russia.

“Russia is a bigger country, Russia is a more powerful country. Russia has decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine.

“So basically, that’s wrong.”

“We had sanctions before the actual invasion.

“We threatened sanctions to hopefully deter Russia from going in.

“You know like if you’re a parent and you tell your children ‘Well, if you do this, the punishment is gonna be that’ Right?

“And we hope that by doing that, it will deter our children from doing the wrong thing. Right?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1574104/Kamala-Harris-Biden-Russia-Ukraine-sanctions-the-morning-hustle-ont

A New York Times headline from January captured the sidelining of the EU well: ‘US and Russia will discuss European security, but without Europeans.’ And that definitely includes Brexit Britain.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/10/world/europe/us-russia-europe-ukraine-nato.html

The West is in big trouble.  

Jay Willis
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 3:22 am

Yes fret, I agree. Like the picture at the head of the above post. Playground insults, for what is a complex situation. The global warming idiocy is just another symptom of poor education.

fretslider
Reply to  Jay Willis
March 3, 2022 3:32 am

I’d go further, Jay. The global warming idiocy is a product of indoctrination and mass propaganda. It’s no accident that there is now a ‘crisis’ of climate anxiety in the young.

Derg
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 3:53 am

This ^

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 1:34 pm

That was a benefit, not a bug, as far as the Leftists are concerned.

Thomas
Reply to  Jay Willis
March 3, 2022 9:45 am

It’s time for us to understand that leave-it-in-the ground and green energy are treason.

n.n
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 5:49 am

Progressive Corruption (PC).

Diversity (i.e. color judgment, class-based bigotry) not limited to racism, Inequity, and Exclusion (DIE).

An Arab Spring in Libya, Egypt, etc. A Slavic Spring in Ukraine, Serbia, etc. An American Spring in America, Canada, etc.

A Pro-Choice “ethical” (i.e. relativistic) religion. A wicked solution (i.e. human sacrifice) for social, clinical, redistributive, and fair weather causes.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  n.n
March 3, 2022 1:35 pm

I would call you ghoulish if you weren’t so damn accurate.

jeffery p
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 7:17 am

The American Veep was selected based on gender, the color of her skin and far-left politics. Other top administration officials were chosen not on merit, but on skin color, gender, sexual orientation, social justice activism, etc., etc. Putin knows this.

It is no surprise that Putin attacked Ukraine while President FJB Brandon is in charge. Putin’s Russia made war on its neighbors during 3 of the last 4 administrations. The notable exception is Trump. Despite Trump’s failed charm offensive, Putin knew Trump was no one to mess with.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Michael in Dublin
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 7:37 am

This dumbing down has been going on since WWII. In 1948, Dorothy Sayers said,

Has it ever struck you as odd, or unfortunate, that to-day, when the proportion of literacy throughout Western Europe is higher than it has ever been, people should have become susceptible to the influence of advertisement and mass-propaganda to an extent hitherto unheard-of and unimagined?
. . . . .

Have you ever, in listening to a debate among adult and presumably responsible people, been fretted by the extraordinary inability of the average debater to speak to the question, or to meet and refute the arguments of speakers on the other side? Or have you ever pondered upon the extremely high incidence of irrelevant matter which crops up at committee-meetings, and upon the very great rarity of persons capable of acting as chairmen of committees? And when you think of this, and think that most of our public affairs are settled by debates and committees, have you ever felt a certain sinking of the heart?

We should nail political, media and climate alarmists on these points. We must force them to define their terms, stick to the topic, answer questions directly, allow no deviation and certainly not personal attacks.

Richard Page
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
March 3, 2022 1:11 pm

Dorothy L Sayers is a much underrated writer.

Bob Tisdale(@bobtisdale)
Editor
March 3, 2022 3:03 am

Thanks, David, for another in-depth educational post.

Regards,
Bob

PS: Regarding U.S. anti-fossil-fuel politicians, let me quote a term used by my 4yo nephew, they are anti-American “doodie heads”.

Scissor
Reply to  Bob Tisdale
March 3, 2022 5:06 am

If anyone is interested, one may attend in person or remotely, a 31 March presentation about how a low-carbon data-driven grid can be made to function. Me thinks the speaker is probably a doodie head, but we shall see.

https://www.getches-wilkinsoncenter.cu.law/events/14th-annual-schultz-lecture-in-energy-featuring-x-moonshots-audrey-zibelman/

“The low carbon electrical grids of the future will need to be powered by millions of geographically decentralized, weather-dependent power generation assets. Today’s grids are virtually the opposite: hierarchical, centralized and concentrated. Anything less than a seamless transition from the former to the future state could significantly impact the reliability, affordability and safety of electric power that is already being challenged by climate change.”

Last edited 2 months ago by Scissor
Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Scissor
March 3, 2022 5:52 am

Speaker is Audry Zibelman:

Audrey Zibelman

Audrey Zibelman leads X’s moonshot for the electric grid. Her team is developing new computational tools to enable the rapid and cost effective decarbonization of the electrical grid.

Audrey has spent over three decades leading organizations with the goal of making power cleaner, more affordable and more reliable. She is an international expert in power system transformation, regulation, markets and operations. She has also been a utility executive, regulator, system operator and entrepreneur.

Audrey joined X from the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) where she was the Managing Director and CEO. AEMO plans and operates the electricity and gas systems and markets for Australia. Prior to AEMO, Audrey was the Chair of the New York Public Service Commission where she was a member of the Governor’s cabinet and oversaw the electric, gas, water, steam and communication utilities in New York. While in New York, Audrey oversaw massive regulatory reform of the electric industry to support a decarbonized grid, known as Reforming the Energy Vision, or REV. Audrey has also held executive roles at utilities companies PJM and Xcel Energy and was the founder and CEO of Viridity Energy.

Not just your garden variety doodiehead, but one with a lot of experience wrecking things and then leaving town. “Reforming Energy Vision”:

New York’s Reforming the Energy Vision (REV) is a set of multi-year regulatory proceedings and policy initiatives launched in New York state in 2014. REV is intended to transform the way electricity is produced, bought and sold in New York[1] and enable the integration of renewable energy generation and smart grid technologies on the electric grid.[2] REV is ongoing with no predefined end date, and will impact all New York utilities and ratepayers.

She was in Governor Cuomo’s cabinet where she “oversaw” the rollout of REV, but then left to become the CEO of Australia Energy Market Operator which she then left to head the electric grid “moonshot” of X.

So in the last 8 years she’s held major positions in two large electric utility systems and hasn’t stuck around either one long enough to see her changes though.

This sounds a lot like “You’re doing an excellent job; we invite you to be excellent somewhere else.”

You can find Audry’s description of the “grid moonshot” here. Sounds like more computer models — the “smart grid” taken to the next level.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
March 3, 2022 10:35 am

It isn’t what one has done during their career (or job titles they have held), but what they have accomplished that is important. Were they effective at their job? Have they made a difference? Would the world be poorer had they not held those jobs?

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 4, 2022 8:14 am

I’ve seen this a lot in corporate life: new people come in at a high level, shake up the organization with a bunch of major changes then about the time the effects of those changes become apparent, they’re off to a different company touting their previous successes.

So I’m suspicious of people starting major initiatives and not sticking around to see them through.

One of my all-time favorite jokes is the story of three envelopes. What makes it so funny is it is so true. I can’t count the number of senior management and executives I’ve seen “invited to be excellent somewhere else.”

Gums
Reply to  Bob Tisdale
March 3, 2022 8:03 am

Salute!

TNX, David.

I am having a hard time finding a $$$ comparison, much less a work/time comparison to replace the “x” barrels per day with acres of PV panels and/or windmills. e.g. how many 1000 acres of PV panels to deliver the equivalent energy of “x” barrels? I realize that refining and using the oil has its own expense, but so does producing the PV panels and windmills, then acquiring the land. Oh yeah, the ever present storage problem for the volts and amps.

Inquiring mind wants to know when debating local greenies.

Gums sends…

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Gums
March 3, 2022 10:41 am

Solar panels (and wind turbines) are not compatible with farming, ranching, or open space recreation such as hiking, hunting, photography, skiing, etc. They decrease the diversity of wildlife and their abundance. They destroy the ability to enjoy the natural scenery. They decrease the quality of life!

It doesn't add up...
Reply to  Gums
March 3, 2022 12:58 pm

The easiest partial solution to the storage problem is not to store energy. It’s much cheaper than trying to store it. Of course, the more you do this the higher the marginal cost of extra energy produced and used, simply because so much of marginal output is not used.

It isn’t a complete solution, because there will always be Dunkeflaute situations which nothing less that a complete dispatchable backup can solve.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Gums
March 3, 2022 1:45 pm

There is no equivalent because renewables are not dispatchable, they produce energy only at their own timetable, not on the timetable of demand. There have been previous articles on WUWT about building a GW of renawable production does not allow the removal of ANY reliable production (neither fossil fueled nor nuclear) because in today’s world ALL renewables still need backup. Thus the fossil fuel plants still exist, and oftentimes must be kept running at speed but producing no power so that they are available when (not if, but when) the renewalbles inevitably cease production, whether due to sunset or just the passing of a cloud, or if the wind is too weak or too strong, they will discontinue. By the same token, due to the benefits that cheap energy has provided to humanity, I would say that the “social cost of carbon” is not just negative (i.e., it provides a net benefit) but infinitely so.

Joseph Zorzin
March 3, 2022 3:32 am

from Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2022/01/17/new-englands-clean-energy-transition-seems-heavy-on-fuel-oil/?sh=6090b0f57ee4

On Sunday, January 16, the New England states along the northeastern U.S. corridor received 24% of their peak power generation not from renewables, not from natural gas, not from coal or nuclear, but from fuel oil.

and most of that from Russia- new pipes to bring in the Marcellus shale are verboten

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 3, 2022 1:48 pm

Am I correct in guessing that coal emissions (at least when producing electricity) have scrubbers in place so that the final output is scarcely “dirtier” than output from a natural gas turbine generator? But fuel oil exhaust has oftentimes not been scrubbed? I’m just making a wild guess here, does anyone have actual data?

Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 3:34 am

You lost me at Russias criminal invasion of Ukraine.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 3:41 am

Do you it’s not criminal, or it’s not an invasion or both?

Dennis Bird
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
March 3, 2022 3:44 am

Justified

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 4:17 am

Please explain your reasoning for this being justified.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 1:51 pm

I agree that this is a criminal invasion, and all damage accounting should be laid at the feet of Putin, but I also contend it was preventable. See the links referenced above.

MarkW
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
March 3, 2022 3:55 pm

Pretty much every conflict throughout history was preventable, up to the moment when they weren’t.

Dennis Bird
Reply to  Tom in Florida
March 3, 2022 4:46 am
MarkW
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 5:52 am

Even if it were true, that doesn’t justify an invasion.
Putin’s is only in power due to a coup, does that justify Ukraine invading Russia?

Richard Page
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 7:10 am

Agreed. We can agree or disagree on the things that led up to this point but this invasion of Putin’s is unjustified and completely out of proportion. It needs to be stopped.

jeffery p
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 6:28 am

Irrelevant

fretslider
Reply to  Tom in Florida
March 3, 2022 5:28 am

He might be referring to the agreements made by James Baker and others – agreements that were broken.

U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University”

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

It reminds me of US treaties with native American tribes. They too were broken.

Bob boder
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 10:53 am

Russia is not the Soviet union.

Adrian Mann
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 5:54 pm

You need to sort your dates out. Soviet Union. Gorbachev. Warsaw Pact. All gone. New reality. New situation. Change in circumstances.
Also – NATO does not, and never has, co-opted or compelled countries to join. You have to APPLY for NATO membership, and have to go through a process before you are admitted. It’s not NATO that has expanded, but that the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact has ceased to exist and been replaced with a collection of sovereign nations that decide their own fate.
The problem is that paranoid, psychopath Putin doesn’t like it, and he’d rather kill us all than accept that.
“What’s the point of a world that doesn’t have Russia in it?”

MarkW
Reply to  Tom in Florida
March 3, 2022 5:56 am

During the 1930’s Stalin organized a famine that killed 10’s of millions of Ukrainians, because of this many Ukrainians treated the advancing German’s as liberators.
Because of this, many people regard the Ukrainians as forever Nazi’s who deserve anything that happens to them.

Richard Page
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 7:08 am

Er, no. Many people regard the Ukrainians as forever Nazi’s because of the extensive and on going far right marches displaying Nazi and SS emblems and symbols. If you don’t want to be treated like a Nazi, then for heaven’s sake, stop dressing and behaving like one.

MarkW
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 7:19 am

It wasn’t that long ago that a bunch of Nazi’s marched somewhere in the US. The ACLU even went to court to prevent the march from being banned.

By your logic, both the US and the ACLU are a bunch of NAZIs.

Richard Page
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 9:26 am

Let the record show that it was MarkW that stated this as fact, not me.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 11:35 am

Let the record show that I affirm what MarkW stated.

Bob boder
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 3, 2022 11:44 am

Mark W
I affirm as well

Drake
Reply to  MarkW
March 4, 2022 2:18 pm

And BLM, a Marxist organization not only marched, they rioted and ki!!ed police officers, so the US is a Marxist country of black nationalists.

Last edited 2 months ago by Drake
fretslider
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 7:23 am

So, the vast majority of the Ukrainian people have a Nazi tendency? Or is it just a very vocal and relatively small minority?

I think you know the answer to that.

Have you apprised Prince Harry of the uniform situation? He hasn’t worn one for a while…

bonbon
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 10:01 am

No, just the Galicia region – you know, where the SS Gallicia Battalion came from. They have hijacked Kiev.

Richard Page
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 10:16 am

You raise the Duke of Montecito and I’ll raise John Cook. Joking aside, though, most countries have neo-nazi minority groups in them; it’s the response that defines a country. In the UK (and presumably the USA similarly) if such a group raises it’s ugly head, it’s usually identified as an extremist hate group, it’s members are monitored by security services and isolated from other such groups. Now compare that with Ukraine, where tacit approval is given, they can openly display Nazi and SS imagery and not only is nothing done to stop them but they are encouraged to continue as a cultural link to the past – imagine the outcry if Germany tried to do that?

MarkW
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 3:57 pm

What is done in the US to prevent Nazis from passing out literature or displaying emblems? The ACLU went to court to protect their right to free speech.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 8:50 pm

Are the down votes because you don’t believe people you don’t like deserve to have their civil rights protected?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 10:49 am

Are you suggesting that the behavior of Professor Cook represents the country of Australia and all the rest of its inhabitants?

Is America to be judged by what Hell’s Angels wear?

Richard Page
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 3, 2022 1:17 pm

No more than fretslider suggested that Prince Harry represented the UK and all of its inhabitants. Any country can be judged by its response to neo-nazi hate groups.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 2:14 pm

Actually, Prince Harry does have some legitimate claim to representing the UK as he is part of the Royal Family. That cannot be said of the others I mentioned.

Bob boder
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 10:55 am

Because of course being a Bolshevik is so much more Nobel. I remind you Putin was KGB

Richard Page
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 1:28 pm

So was Andropov and Gorbachev, although not KGB, had huge amounts of influence over them and need I remind you that Putin never rose above middle-level in the KGB. Not that any of that actually means anything. We were discussing the neo-nazi problem, what exactly has that to do with Bolshevism and the KGB? I don’t understand why you decided to absent-mindedly wander off at a tangent.

Bob boder
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 11:43 am

Behaving? You mean like Putin?

Richard Page
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 1:30 pm

The post you replied to doesn’t use the word behaviour I believe. In any case Putin is misbehaving, on a thoroughly horrific level.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 1:57 pm

Naziism is NOT RIGHT-WING!!!!!! Nor is “white nationalism”, those whiners want to be the “victim” just as all the other leftist-coddled “victims”, and want the government to enforce by fiat and force that they are the superior race, just as CRT tries to teach that the more melanin in a person’s skin the more righteous because “systemic racism” (which is a fairy-tale creation if ever I heard one, it just about begins with “Once upon a time…”) and the government should enforce that addled falsehood.

jeffery p
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 7:21 am

Mark, I think you have your history crossed a bit. Stalin starved millions in the 1930s. Hitler began his war against the Soviet Union in 1941. But I get your point.

MarkW
Reply to  jeffery p
March 3, 2022 9:50 am

All I stated was that the Germans invasion was after the Stalin starvation of the 1930’s. I didn’t put a time frame on that invasion.

Bob boder
Reply to  jeffery p
March 3, 2022 11:02 am

Mark is totally correct, the Ukrainians treated the Nazis as liberators until of course the Nazis proved that they were every bit as bad as Stalin and a least Stalin wanted some of them to survive as long as they kissed his ass.
There are a lot of people here that simply don’t understand that there is almost no difference between Communists and Nazis. They believe pretty much the same thing, don’t think twice about exterminating anyone that disagrees with them and both strongly believe the state is more important then the individual.

Drake
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 12:19 pm

So, like Trudope, Brandon, The A$$hat PM in NZ, etc.

Drake
Reply to  David Middleton
March 4, 2022 2:21 pm

Yep, that fits.

Adrian Mann
Reply to  Drake
March 3, 2022 5:57 pm

No, not like that at all.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 4:20 am

In what respect(s) is it justified?

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
March 3, 2022 4:25 am

Sorry posted before I finished.

In the same way that Germany and Austria were united, and the Sudetenland annexation was justified for example

Bob boder
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
March 3, 2022 11:51 am

Yep and Putin used almost exactly the same diatribe To justify invading Ukraine that Hitler used to invade Czechoslovakia. Hitler was only going to free the German nationals in the Sudetenland and leave the rest alone just like Putin said as well. Read Hitler justification it’s scary how close it is to Putin.

Jet A
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
March 3, 2022 6:04 am

What has the US done when another country tries to influence and or put missiles on countries around us? Think bay of pigs….. The CIA has been mucking around in Ukraine for many many years. Always pushing to get turf close to Russia.

Why can I not up or down vote a few of the comments? I hope you are not trying to sway people on here. Let the the chips fall where they may.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jet A
MarkW
Reply to  Jet A
March 3, 2022 9:52 am

The Ukraine had nuclear missiles, and at the insistence of the US and Europe got rid of them.

The Bay of Pigs was about Russian missiles in Cuba???????

Try learning at least a little bit of history. Please.

Bob boder
Reply to  Jet A
March 3, 2022 11:09 am

You honestly think the Soviet’s didn’t want to dominate the world and defeat and conquer the us?
The US on the other hand provide it did not want to conquer the world after WW2. It quite literally was in a position to do just that.
The Ukraine was not looking to conquer the Russians, you really think Putin is doing this out of fear of UKraine?
The Ukrainians already had Nukes they gave them up for security assurances from the west and Russia, how did that work for them?

Janice Moore
Reply to  Jet A
March 3, 2022 11:40 am

Apples to oranges.

Cuba: offensive missiles, target –> U.S.

Ukraine: defensive missiles no target — until provoked.

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 3, 2022 5:26 pm

Wiki: After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production.[2] 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory.[3] Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States.[4] In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

ICMBs are certainly offensive, but they were programmed to target the US when the Russians left. They probably disabled most of their weapons when they pulled out of Ukraine. How Russia’s missiles could have acted as a Russian deterrent is a mystery.

*** Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), official language – Russian.

MarkW
Reply to  Bill Parsons
March 3, 2022 8:53 pm

Remove guidance electronics, replace it with your own. Not that difficult.

Redge
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 4:32 am

“Justified” as in US Marshal Raylan enforcing his own brand of justice?

Whatever you meant, you need to justify your use of the term “justified” when it comes to Russia’s criminal invasion of Ukraine.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 4:36 am

Justified

One of the best TV shows of all time.

“He pulled first; it was justified”

  • Raylan Givens

“You shot me in the back!”

“If you’d wanted to be shot in the front you should have run toward me!”.

But you weren’t referring to that, were you?

Drake
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
March 3, 2022 12:23 pm

I had not seen any of that series until it was over. Once I saw the first episode, I watched them all in short order.

Much of the cast changed season to season, a lot of killin.

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 5:51 am

So having politicians you disapprove of justifies having your country invaded and your civilians killed.

What a nice person you are.

jeffery p
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 6:28 am

The Moscow Circus must be in town because the clowns are here.

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 5:50 am

You have an aversion to reality?

bonbon
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 6:10 am

Dimwits here have already forgotten the Cuba Missile Crisis – international law is out the window when an existential threat is on your doorstep.

Ukraine President Zelensky said at the MSC, Munich Security Conference, that Ukraine must acquire nukes – nobody there objected. No time was wasted by Russia then.

Denazification continues. And it was Biden, and son, who put the junta in place in 2014.

jeffery p
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 6:30 am

The Moscow Circus is here and they sent the clowns in first. Get back in your clown car and peddle your ridiculous fiction elsewhere.

bonbon
Reply to  jeffery p
March 3, 2022 7:13 am

I’m seeing you think this is joke?
And there was I thinking the Nazi problem was cleared up in 1945.

MarkW
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 9:54 am

The situation is not funny. You are.
As to thinking, I’m waiting for you to start.
As to Nazis, the only ones I’m seeing around here are you and the Russians.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 2:05 pm

Calm down, at least a little. I have read many places that Biden contributed, and not just in this last year. I recommend some research.

Now, I will take issue at the “denazification” term, that’s clearly a made-up justification.

James F. Evans
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
March 4, 2022 1:29 am

Partly as a result of neo-nazi ideology, since 2014 the Ukrainian government has implemented policies against ethnic Russians, not just indiscriminate shelling of the breakaway regions, resulting in over 10,000 deaths, but also language requirements, and so forth.

Resurgent neo-nazism has greatly divided Ukraine.

This war could have been avoided by diplomacy: No Nato membership for Ukraine & no offensive missiles on Ukraine’s border with Russia. Stop shelling eastern Ukraine, implement the Minsk agreements.

The Ukrainian government never acted in good faith to follow through on its agreement (Minsk) with France, Germany, and Russia.

Washington never encouraged Ukraine to carry out the Minsk agreements (We certainly had the influence if we wanted to.)

At some point the Ukrainian government has to look in the mirror and reflect on their own actions in this sad affair.

A new cold war has descended on Europe… I hope Americans don’t pay an economic price for something we never signed up for nor were told about by the foreign policy elite that thought it was a good idea to repeatedly poke the bear.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  James F. Evans
March 4, 2022 12:55 pm

Except NATO wasn’t really the reason, AFAICT, that was just the justification. So even had NATO made “iron-clad” promises of no NATO membership for Ukraine ever, I don’t think Putin would have been deterred, I think all the motivations (that he saw) would have still existed just as strongly, and because of the feckless leadership from the U. S. administration, this was Putin’s best opportunity to commit a heinous crime and get away with it. Which he likely will.

James F. Evans
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
March 4, 2022 1:58 pm

Russia has made it explicit about Ukraine not being in Nato for a long time, but I can’t read their minds.

However, if such was true (your assertion), call their bluff… what would it hurt, rather it would confirm your assertion.

bonbon
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 10:05 am

Zelenskyy also speaks Russian, banned by the Junta. Zelenskyy got 79% votes for the Minsk accords – nothing was allowed. He was threatened on camera by one of the extremists on Russia’s list.
I would see his position as being extremely in danger.

James F. Evans
Reply to  David Middleton
March 4, 2022 12:33 am

Andriy Parubiy is a Ukrainian politician who served as the Chairman (speaker) of the Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian parliament from 2014 to 2019, an ideologist for Svoboda, a neo-nazi party in Ukraine.
Speaker of the parliament is right up there in the high councils of govt.

There have been and are other neo-nazis in the Ukrainian government.

That ideology has influenced Ukraine’s policies.

From 2014 until now the Ukrainian government and the neo-nazi Azov battalion and others have been shelling the breakaway regions in violation of the Minsk agreements, over 10,000 eastern Ukrainians have died as a result of that shelling.

Sadly, we are in a new cold war… let’s hope it doesn’t go nuclear.

Nobody wins that way regardless of ideology.

MarkW
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 7:21 am

Ukraine had nukes, and gave them up.

bonbon
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 10:05 am

They never ‘had’ – they were strict Soviet – no local access.

Bob boder
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 11:15 am

Then why did they get a treaty to give them up, you are a dope.

MarkW
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 4:10 pm

Once you have full physical control, replacing the control unit is not that difficult.

MarkW
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 7:59 am

China has nukes.
China is on Putin’s door step.
China and Russia have fought each other several times in the last 50 years.
China and Russia have active disagreements over portions of Siberia.

By your logic, Russian should be invading China, not Ukraine.

bonbon
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 10:06 am

Strange, but China is not in NATOstan – what map are you using, pray tell?

MarkW
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 4:11 pm

So in your world, NATO is the source of all evil, and Britain rules NATO with an iron fist.

I never said you have to be nuts to support Putin, but as bonbon show, it sure helps.

Last edited 2 months ago by MarkW
Bob boder
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 11:13 am

They already had nukes and gave them up, how did that work for them. Which government is acting like Nazis

Jet A
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 6:14 am

We are the aggressors in this. Not Russia. We have absolutely no business being involved in Eastern Europe. NATO agreed to stay out of eastern Europe (former Warsaw Pact) in 1991; recently released UK documents confirm this. NATO has been moving eastward ever since. Our military wanted to return our forces to the US after we used 70% of V and VII Corps in desert storm, but our Politicians were already preparing to squeeze the Russians. (I spent 20 yrs in HQ USAREUR aka NATO Central Army Group working G3/G8). We had 10X the combat forces we have now in NATO; five division stationed in Germany with equipment for 6 more divisions (POMCUS) stored in Holland and Belguim. We further promised “first use nuclear weapons” if necessary to stop Warsaw Pact forces. Every time we have included a new nation in NATO, we have squeezed the bear by deploying NATO ground forces nearer Russia; the Cuban missile crisis taught us nothing; we put nukes in Turkey and Russian responded with Nukes in Cuba. We have been moving NATO troops ever closer to Russia for 20 yrs. Now we have managed to forge an alliance between thousand year old enemies, China and Russia (the worlds largest military and the worlds largest economy; Taiwan next?

Last edited 2 months ago by Jet A
MarkW
Reply to  Jet A
March 3, 2022 9:55 am

I love how Putin’s lap dogs blame the victims.
Are you actually arguing that any country that does something Putin doesn’t like deserves to be invaded and have it’s civilians killed?

bonbon
Reply to  Jet A
March 3, 2022 10:10 am

The New Silk Road, or Belt and Road Initiative is full steam ahead anyway. That includes Europe, Russia, China and Afghanistan, which London will do anything to block, with Biden the current fumbler after Pompeo.
This is the way out of nuclear brinkmanship, which should have stopped after Cuba.

A G Foster
Reply to  Jet A
March 3, 2022 3:31 pm

But of course, you are correct. Democracies attack democracies all the time, and are a ceaseless threat to despotic imperial regimes like the Third Reich, the emperor’s Japan, Mao’s China, Stalin’s USSR and Putin’s Russia.

But of course you are completely wrong and know nothing. Democracies never fight democracies. The US hasn’t fought a war of expansion for a century and a half. It has returned all conquered territories of the previous century to their previous totalitarian owners. Not since Castro’s coup has a US base overstayed its invitation. After Gadaffi’s coup we abandoned Wheelus. When Spain said get out we closed our bases and NATO left. When the Philippines said get out the US Navy got out. As you curiously admit the US has been reducing troop deployments in Germany by stages for the last 20 years.

The US has long record of saving the world from totalitarian imperialists and only totalitarian imperialists have any reason to fear us. Whose side are you on? –AGF

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  A G Foster
March 4, 2022 12:58 pm

U. S. troops also left France when the French said get out.

Drake
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
March 4, 2022 2:54 pm

The French were afraid of the US and its influence.

I know that in the 60s I heard a quote, told to the French, I believe to De Gaul, that we don’t want your country, all we have ever asked for is a place to bury our dead, BUT, the searches I have tried all come to much more recent quotes.

Drake
Reply to  A G Foster
March 4, 2022 2:36 pm

And TRUMP! finally started moving troops from back line countries who don’t pay their fair share of GDP toward their military to countries like Poland who do. I think NATO needs to be disbanded, US forces returned home, less those countries who are willing meet their international, contractually agreed to, commitments.

How much does Germany make from the 40,000 US troops there, and they JUST NOW said they would finally get to 2% GDP for their military. They said it, but don’t hold your breath for them to actually deliver.

I wonder if someone told them that when TRUMP! gets back in the White House, all options will be on the table, including shutting off Nord Stream 1 and 2, and anything else coming from Russia. Their change from, “we will send them helmets”, much like Obama’s sending blankets and MREs during Crimea, to Stingers and Javelins and the 2% was really abrupt. I can’t believe that anyone in the Brandon WH had anything to do with it.

Mac
March 3, 2022 4:03 am

Putin has also hurt Russia very badly. I talk to my ex in Tula Russia on a daily basis. The Russian coffers filled with oil revenues have not reached the Russian people in any way. There is huge problem with inflation, incredible loss with the ruble falling very significantly etc. Basically Putin has failed his own country I believe. I have said to my ex for a long time that Putin should concentrate on Russia rather than get mixed up in foreign affairs like Syria, Iran.

Scissor
Reply to  Mac
March 3, 2022 5:11 am

Ain’t central planning great?

Reply to  Mac
March 3, 2022 5:52 am

Putin is a Hitler…a criminal…a mafia type…he is only friends with N. Korea…Iran….China…Syria…he manipulated elections in Russia,,,he poisoned rivals with polonium…he and the oligarchs are in control and Russia needs a regime change badly….and Putin needs to croak.

bonbon
Reply to  Anti-griff
March 3, 2022 6:33 am

Amnesia seems to have struck, hard. Maybe it is all that fracking CO2.

Cuba Missile Crisis . Thank God we had JFK or we would not be here now.
Thirteen Days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DqzjoXz22c

When Ukraine Presiden Zelensky said at the Munich Security Conference they must acquire nuclear weapons, Russia did not wait even 13 days!

Any fool that thinks that is funny just has not seen the move, nor gotten the memo.

Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 7:50 am

JFK screwed up the invasion of Cuba…he should have done it right or not at all. Ukraine had nukes and gave ’em up…no doubt a lesson for all. The lesson here is do not appease Putin like Hitler was appeased.

bonbon
Reply to  Anti-griff
March 3, 2022 9:53 am

JFK saved your life.
Guess how – the US removed their Jupiter missiles in Turkey, aimed at Moscow. Without a shot fired. RFK did the secret deal.

Ukraine never had nukes – they were strictly Soviet. Ukraine does/did have nuke processing knowhow. What alerted Russia is NATO nuke-capable launchers sneaking into Ukraine. All NATO nukes are strictly NATO – Ukraine would have no button. In other words the USA could launch at any time.

Of course JFK and RFK were never forgiven, and look what happened to them!

Last edited 2 months ago by bonbon
Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 2:12 pm

In hindsight, I think JFK made the Cuban missile crisis worse, not better. The CIA and/or State Department had promised aid and support to the Bay of Pigs invaders before JFK was inaugurated. So with change of administration, change of policy, but no one told the invaders! That would have been nice, don’t you think? I believe, had the U. S. provided the support promised, the communists could have been completely removed, and Cuba today would be, well, probably just another poor Caribbean Island? No, I think they would be a lot better off than any of the other Caribbean Islands, they had/have more advantages. Think Bahamas, with more high ground to retreat from hurricanes.

MarkW
Reply to  Red94ViperRT10
March 3, 2022 4:15 pm

Prior to the revolution, Cuba was the wealthiest country in all of Latin America/Caribbean. After Cuba fell to communism, Argentina became the wealthiest country in Latin America.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  MarkW
March 4, 2022 1:07 pm

Castro’s “Revolution” was very costly, but had the whole lot been expelled by the Bay of Pigs invasion, Cuba would have certainly recovered, and then some, by now. They may well have been one of the biggest beneficiaries of the NAFTA jobs giveaway of the last 30 years!

Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 4:21 pm

Missiles in Turkey were obsolete…old technology….newer missiles did not need to be in Turkey.

A G Foster
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 7:11 pm

bonbon offers us Hollywood history. If ever there were grounds for a minimalist approach, it is to history as presented by the Marxists of cinema, a la West Wing or Oliver Stone’s JFK. That’s really scraping the bottom of the academic bucket.

MarkW
Reply to  A G Foster
March 4, 2022 6:41 am

Hollywood history? It’s more like Looney-Tunes history.

fretslider
Reply to  Anti-griff
March 3, 2022 7:01 am

The joke is Putin escaped [the collapse of the USSR] with… a washing machine:

How crazed despot Putin escaped collapsing Soviet Union with just a washing machine – and has vowed revenge ever since”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17763981/putin-revenge-soviet-union/

The only thing that separates a communist from a fascist is the ownership of the means of production. Everything else is totally in sync.Totalitarian.

Bob boder
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 11:19 am

Absolutely!!!!

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  fretslider
March 3, 2022 2:20 pm

Even if the “means of production” is not owned by the State, when the State tells the producers what and how much to produce, where to get their raw materials and how much to pay for it, who they can hire to produce it, what to charge when they sell it and who they can sell it to, it’s the same thing as State-owned production, hm? Maybe even worse, because the “crony capitalists” get fabulously rich off that business model. All of that happened in Nazi Germany, so don’t tell me I’m wrong about any of it unless you can bring irrefutable, incontrovertible proof, not just opinion pieces from all the usual suspects (read left-leaning Lame-Stream Media). (So left-leaning they have toppled over!) Under the current “business model” of Russia, and to a large extent Ukraine, the “oligarchs” are the owners of the alleged so-called independent means of production. So in actual practice, there is no difference.

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  Anti-griff
March 3, 2022 7:19 am

There is already a $1m bounty on his head.

Jtom
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
March 3, 2022 4:28 pm

If Russian oligarchs raised that by a factor of 100, it would be accomplished quickly and the would save billions. Amazing that the deed is not yet done.

MarkW
Reply to  Mac
March 3, 2022 6:00 am

Putin sees Russian glory as his glory. He wants to return Russia to the glory he feels it enjoyed during the days of the Soviet Union, and the first step in that process is recreating the Soviet Union. The Ukraine is just the second step. The first steps were Crimea and Georgia.

Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 7:24 am

Putin is for Putin….he now has the most expensive mansion in the world on the Black Sea. The population if Russia is declining…huge poverty….Dictators tend to get out of touch with reality. Stalin was so feared that when he had a stroke…the servants were too afraid to enter his bedroom to ask why he had not appeared so he laid on the floor for hours…some justice after all….may Putin meet the same fate.

Bob boder
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 11:20 am

I’ll go further, Putin sees himself as Russia.
Does this sound like anybody else we know from history?

Richard Page
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 1:34 pm

Peter Ustinov? Well I didn’t know, so I just guessed.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 2:21 pm

More like the pre-Soviet Russia of Nicholas (II? III? How many?).

marlene
March 3, 2022 4:14 am

Today Ukraine. Tomorrow Israel. China and Russia, together again. And then WW3 begins.

John Garrett
March 3, 2022 4:18 am

Thank you, David Middleton.

Your contributions to WUWT are always fact-filled, well-documented with links to reliable sources and inevitably save me from having to do a lot of work.

Scissor
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 5:12 am

Your head of R&D deserves a raise.

Bob boder
Reply to  Scissor
March 3, 2022 11:21 am

How can he give is head a raise?

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 2:22 pm

Buy a bigger hat? /s

Reply to  Bob boder
March 4, 2022 8:38 am

Wow I just reread what I wrote, that can be taken a completely different way, on the other hand its pretty easy for even a teenage boy.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 10:59 am

You don’t? 🙂

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
March 3, 2022 4:23 am

The US has been a new importer of crude oil for a long time.

Typo alert: “new” -> “net” ?

Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
March 3, 2022 6:07 am

The US invented the oil industry and produced its own oil for a century….Japan depended on US exports until the oil was cut off due to Japan’s China invasion. In the 1960s , I drove a VW Beetle at 30 mpg and gasoline was $0.30/gal…..one cent per mile.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
March 3, 2022 4:37 am

Thanks David; I was hoping you’d weigh in on this.

Dennis
March 3, 2022 4:56 am

Censor me if you must. Sorry I’m not supporting the narrative like a good boy. The same powers that lie about global warming are now telling the truth about Ukraine?

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 2:25 pm

Those would be the same powers that are now calling Putin a “madman”, trying to deflect any culpability for setting up the situations that caused Putin to see an invasion of Ukraine as advantageous. (Again, I’m not letting Putin off the hook, he’s still a criminal, but I believe this situation was preventable. If it was not preventable, why did it not happen while Trump was in office?)

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis
March 3, 2022 6:02 am

Facts can be checked. Just declaring you are going to hide your head and not believe anything makes you an ostrich.

Dennis Bird
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 7:05 am

So set me straight. Show me where I’m wrong?

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis Bird
March 3, 2022 9:59 am

To show you where you are wrong, you would have to actually say something. All you have done so far is declare that you refuse to look at any facts you don’t agree with. To do so makes you look like a close minded fool. If that’s the look you are going for, more power to you.

bonbon
Reply to  Dennis
March 3, 2022 6:14 am

Exactly. They are Straussian liars!.

jeffery p
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 6:33 am

You could use some fact-checking yourself.

jeffery p
Reply to  Dennis
March 3, 2022 6:32 am

The war on Ukraine is naked Russian aggression, period. There is no justification. The Russian military is guilty of war crimes.

Richard Page
Reply to  jeffery p
March 3, 2022 7:15 am

So is the American military, but let’s not split hairs. “Might makes right” is not acceptable foreign policy for any country, no matter how big or powerful it believes itself to be.

bonbon
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 9:48 am

“Nuke makes right” is not acceptable…
There fixed it for ya.

jeffery p
Reply to  Dennis
March 3, 2022 7:26 am

And YOU are telling the truth?

Richard Page
Reply to  jeffery p
March 3, 2022 9:30 am

No, I’m drawing a comparison. I leave it up to others to discover their truth, but I don’t impose it on them.

Bob boder
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 11:40 am

The truth is the both suck, but one invaded the other and one is a threat to other nations in the world and the other is not.

As for comparisons of the US and frankly any other nation in history is simple. At the end of WW2 the US had the greatest military machine the world ever had known, it had bases and troops in every corner of the world, was the only country able to project its power any were, was totally safe from attack and had was the only nation with the most destructive force ever known to man. What did the US do, it transitioned to a peaceful posture and rebuilt its former enemies and much of the world economy.

It was only the presences of the Communist/fascist of the Soviet Union that brought the US back into the for front of world power.

Stop with the equivalency nonsense.

Richard Page
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 1:37 pm

The only comparison I drew was that both had committed acts that might be viewed as war crimes and if you were looking at the record honestly then you would agree. That’s all.

Gregory Woods
March 3, 2022 5:06 am

The History Behind the Russia-Ukraine War – Antiwar.com Original

The History Behind the Russia-Ukraine Warby Scott Horton Posted on

March 03, 2022

Just to get this out of the way first real quick: Whenever someone dares to differ with the common government and TV narrative about Russia and their role in the world, that person is usually instantly condemned as spouting “Russian talking points,” or being “paid by Putin.” This is probably especially the case this week as Russia is waging an aggressive invasion against their neighbor Ukraine as we speak.
But that is still nonsense. Where would a Texan obtain these talking points? Are they true?

[read on, if you dare…]

Richard Page
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 7:21 am

I think that idea started not only by the steady expansion east towards Russia’s borders, but also when NATO began changing from a defensive organisation into an intervention force acting beyond the borders of NATO countries. The first Russia might have been able to live with but the second rang alarm bells in Moscow.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 7:57 am

David,

I generally enjoy your articles and agree with your points on energy. But the above is just a blow-off response to the reality underlying a very serious issue. So here’s a quote from the article by George Keenan, who was the force behind setting up NATO to counter the USSR:

Kennan complained to the Times’ Thomas L. Friedman in 1998,
“I think [NATO expansion] is the beginning of a new Cold War. I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else. This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this country turn over in their graves. We have signed up to protect a whole series of countries, even though we have neither the resources nor the intention to do so in any serious way.
“Don’t people understand? Our differences in the Cold War were with the Soviet Communist regime. And now we are turning our backs on the very people who mounted the greatest bloodless revolution in history to remove that Soviet regime.
“Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are — but this is just wrong.”

Is Putin a bad guy? Yes. Have the Neo-Cons been meddling in Ukraine since the end of the cold war? Yes. Would Putin have invaded without the meddling and the aggression? We don’t know, but the meddling obviously didn’t deter him.

So a Russian invasion is in progress and people are being killed and the country laid waste. The only relevant question now is how to stop it. Maybe it could be stopped right now if the Ukrainians would negotiate a settlement that excludes NATO membership.

Unfortunately, right now the West is encouraging the Ukrainians to fight, which means Putin will probably need to go the scorched earth route to prevent NATO from setting up shop in Ukraine. This is exactly what the Neo-Cons, who involved us in pointless wars in the Middle East, want. And this is exactly what Brandon and his handlers want – a ready made diversion from their ongoing incompetence and corruption, and a convenient excuse for cratering the US economy.

Richard Page
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 9:38 am

Well, with NATO having intervened in many countries since they changed their role in the early 90’s, why doesn’t NATO intervene now?

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 9:47 am

No, I didn’t say that. We should be encouraging negotiations to end the killing before it escalates further. The first step is to find out what Putin and Zelensky can mutually live with. Neither you nor I know what this is, and we’re obviously not going to find out given blatant media / government censorship and bias.

What we should understand, is that this crisis furthers the interest of ‘progressives’ who are highly committed to intervening in people’s lives, both domestically and overseas. And while $120+/bbl oil may sound great to producers (I’ve worked there), please keep in mind that these same progressives not only do not like oil or any other fossil fuel, but actively want to use this crisis, and its economic knock-on effects on fertilizer, food and other commodities, to crater the West and “build back better”.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 12:19 pm

That’s right. And that’s why there was no invasion then, notwithstanding the fact that Putin was just as much a badass then as he is now.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 11:54 am

No. Putin must leave Ukraine. No “negotiation.”

We don’t parlay with criminals. We capture them or kill them.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 3, 2022 12:17 pm

“We don’t parlay with criminals. We capture them or kill them.”

All of them? There’s a lot of them out there – who’d you like to start with?

Janice Moore
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 12:39 pm

Frank. Seriously? All or nothing?? 🤨

Who would I like to start with?

Well….. #1 – Putin, #2 – Maduro, #3- those behind the 2020 U.S. presidential vote rigging, #4 — people who run puppy mills, #5….. well, you get the idea…. “all” is a lot of bad ‘uns. 🤠*

*Note: these are illustrative examples, not my “top 4” many other bad actors would be equally desirable to be captured, i.e., stopped, or killed; given the exigency, however, I would put Putin at #1 for the moment (and any other leaders who would step into his shoes).

MarkW
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 4:25 pm

We can start with those who have been invading their neighbors. This is Putin’s third offense.

Bob boder
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 11:58 am

Frank you wouldn’t be wrong if Putin was rational, but I don’t think he’s playing the game you think.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 12:26 pm

Bob, regardless of this mental state, he’s been playing the same game for 20 years. What to you think about Zelensky holding out for NATO intervention while his subjects bear the brunt of Putin’s assault?

Bob boder
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 1:34 pm

Putin has no interest in negotiating, that’s the problem. He’s not looking for concessions. Zelensky has no choices other than winning or losing, his people have zero interest in being conquered. Putin thought they would roll over, they aren’t even in a lot of the predominantly Russian areas, they may think being part Russia would be OK, but not with Putin in charge. If this wasn’t the case Kharkiv would have fallen on day one.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 4:34 pm

No one here is privy to the ‘negotiations’, so have no idea what Zelensky’s choices are. Putin’s Russia has enough problems without trying to conquer Ukraine, so am willing to accept at face value that the issue is NATO expansion. As for the time line, you might want to see how long it took all of NATO to subdue Serbia, not to mention the length of the air campaign in Desert Storm.

Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 4, 2022 8:41 am

Frank

Unfortunately I think you are just plan wrong, I think Putin is off his noddle and is going full on legacy mode.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 2:31 pm

I think Putin is rational, he rationally saw an opportunity. He’s still a criminal and a thug, but he’s a rational one.

whiten
Reply to  David Middleton
March 4, 2022 5:24 am

David.

The use or the utilization of “We” in your statement is very invasive.

And no one really cared about Ukrainians and their problem of a real and dangerous escalating conflict with Russia… for many many years now, for not saying decades.
Oh, perhaps President Trump tried at some point… also Macron too… but that was all it… not enough though, as neither UN or EU showed any interest or will or effort towards deescalating that conflict.

cheers

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 11:08 am

Maybe it could be stopped right now if the Ukrainians would negotiate a settlement that excludes NATO membership.

Then you are advocating a sovereign nation give up its right to choose its destiny and what alliances and foreign policies it wants to pursue because a neighbor nation threatens them if it doesn’t? Then it is no longer a sovereign nation if another dictates what they can or can’t do.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 3, 2022 11:55 am

It is no longer a sovereign nation if another dictates what they can or can’t do.

Precisely.

whiten
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 4, 2022 5:58 am

Like when some one at the top of Law and Order in Ukraine was fired or perhaps resigned under pressure, simply because Joseph sezz and willzzed so.
And that was not a Russian Joseph, by the way.

🙂

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 3, 2022 11:56 am

Clyde,

With all due respect, we crossed that Rubicon a long time ago. E.g., we’ve told Iran (“a sovereign nation”) that they can’t build nukes (“choose its destiny”) at least in part (if we’re honest) because it’s pretty damn difficult to f@*$ with a country that has nukes, never mind what “a neighbor nation” might think.

This isn’t just Russia and Ukraine going at it in a vacuum. Biden (or whomever) and the other leaders of the NATO nations are taking actions that 1) will have enormous economic consequences world-wide and 2) might result in military conflict between two nuclear powers.

Note, I would agree with you on this, like I agree with your skepticism of climate alarmism and its associated policy interventions, if, say, the US, a sovereign nation, and its NATO allies, also sovereign nations, were to publicly declare that under no circumstances is Ukraine going to be allowed into NATO. But no such declaration has been made, which should make everyone here wonder if the current crisis is not so much a bug, but a primary feature, of our interventionist foreign policy.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 2:32 pm

The essence of our difference of opinion is compulsion. If we were putting economic pressure on Ukraine to join NATO, I would say that it would be wrong. To force others to do what they don’t want to do is wrong when they are not harming others. It is a moral act to help others that are weaker when they are attacked, even if they are not members of a treaty. The only reason that NATO would deny a request to join is if they were more concerned about the consequences than allowing a nation to choose its destiny. If any nation wants to join NATO, their request should be considered, and unless there is a good reason, such as not believing the sincerity of their support, the request should be granted.

If you observe someone getting off on torturing an animal, and tell the person to quit, you are doing a moral thing. If the person then tells you that you should mind your own business, or he’ll punch your lights out, you have a couple of choices. You can take the easy way out and retreat, or you can call his bluff personally, or call the police. The point is, the moral act is to support the right action, and not back off when a bully threatens. It has been my experience that when bullies get away with bad behavior, it allows them to not only continue to act that way, but it emboldens them to escalate their behavior.

Last edited 2 months ago by Clyde Spencer
MarkW
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 4:29 pm

Nobody would give a flip whether or not Iran had nukes if they would give up trying to over throw their neighbors.

That’s the difference you are ignoring. If you want to be treated like a sovereign nation, one prerequisite is to start acting like one.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  MarkW
March 3, 2022 5:11 pm

Agree. So maybe we and the British shouldn’t have overthrown Mosaddegh and installed the Shah, who, in turn, was overthrown by Khomeini. Who issued a fatwah against nukes, by the way.

There are many examples of our leaders screwing up when they intervene in the affairs of other nations. What makes me sad, however, is that, while so many of the good folks here are willing to call bs when our leaders attempt to intervene in our lives on the basis of junk climate science, they are mostly inclined to give the same incompetents free rein to intervene in the lives of others.

MarkW
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 5:38 pm

You make it sound like the decision to overthrow Mosaddegh was made in a vacuum.

Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 4, 2022 8:47 am

Frank

You are lost. The US exercises its power to achieve stability, and yes often it does it quite stupidly. But that’s not the same as exercising power to to generate chaos and to conquer others.

As I stated earlier the US was in the position to dominate and conquer the whole world after WW2, no one could have stood in our way. But we didn’t. why. now put the the leaders in Iran in that position or Putin or Xi or Hitler or Castro and tell me what they would have done.

Bob boder
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 11:30 am

Frank

Most of what you quoted here is accurate. But I don’t believe that Putin invaded because he felt threatened. The timing may be because he feared NATO membership for Ukraine but there is no doubt in my mind he has always wanted to rebuild the Soviet Empire. However it’s just as likely his own age has something to do with it. He has achieved much of this dream already, the central Asian republics are mostly under his control, much of the caucuses are as well, Belarus is under his control and half of Moldova is as well, he has more troops in Moldova then Moldova does. All that’s left is the Ukraine and the Baltic states.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 11:58 am

Mr. boder:

You are very likely correct. Russians, unlike historical Germans, are not congenital invaders. They watch for something to be unguarded and then, steal things when they get the opportunity.

Our pseudo-president did much to create the impression that NOW was the time by his foolish-at-best, evil-at-worst, remarks about the situation in the recent past.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 3, 2022 12:28 pm

Historical Germans are congenital invaders?

Janice Moore
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 12:50 pm

That is to say that the (average) historical German leader aggressively, assertively, takes what belongs to others (e.g., for “lebensraum” (if I spelled that correctly, don’t really care)). Whereas, the (average) Russian, equally wanting what belongs to others, waits until something is unguarded and, then, takes it.

The key difference is deterrent:

Russians will be deterred by a moderate amount of strength (thus, peace through strength), and will not attack if they will likely incur a great cost to do so.

Historical Germans (and, perhaps, these do not even exist anymore to any significant degree) attacked when they thought they could win — even if at great cost.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 12:33 pm

Maybe. But would point out that Russia extends over 11 time zones and they have all-year sea access, so not sure how much empire he needs. Also, garrisoning Moldova seems to fit the pattern that he doesn’t want a NATO enclave on his border.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 12:53 pm

Frank, also, there already non-Ukraine, NATO, bases well within easy striking distance of Russia.

Ukraine and NATO is only a flimsy excuse to attack (just as Russia did in Georgia with another pretense).

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 3, 2022 2:05 pm

NATO membership is not so flimsy an excuse if this is at least the second time he’s reacted to it. Why not just take if (NATO membership) off the table and see what happens?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 2:44 pm

Why not just take if (NATO membership) off the table and see what happens?

Because you would be encouraging Putin to do it again to another country.

Are you not familiar with the history of Neville Chamberlain?

https://www.biography.com/political-figure/neville-chamberlain

Last edited 2 months ago by Clyde Spencer
Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 3, 2022 4:44 pm

If Ukraine joins NATO now, Article 5 would automatically be triggered. Boom. Again, take it off the table.

Chamberlain? How about Molotov-Ribentrop conspiring to carve up Poland, which triggered Britain’s version of Article 5.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 3:25 pm

A flimsy excuse, waved around 1,000 times, is still a flimsy excuse.

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Janice Moore
March 4, 2022 1:16 pm

Pretty much right. I’m getting the sense that many older Russians have never ceased to view Ukraine as a part of Russia, Kiev was once the capital of Russia. So Putin’s rationale is that he’s restoring mother Russia. (I still think Putin is a criminal… see elsewhere.)

Bob boder
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 1:41 pm

Frank,
You are reading the game wrong, Putin wants Ukraine, no different then Hitler and the Sudetenland. Defeating him and then giving him an out might work, but he needs to be stopped first.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Bob boder
March 3, 2022 2:10 pm

How about taking NATO membership off the table and see what happens? Heretofore, our ‘allies’ have not even been ‘paying their fair share’, to quote Brandon from the other night. The Cold War should have ended decades ago.

MarkW
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 5:43 pm

To make it easier to invade them when he’s ready.

Richard Page
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 1:45 pm

Frank – Russia has limited all year access to the sea and, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, no shipyards capable of building anything bigger than a frigate or small destroyer. The shipyards in Crimea are capable of building cruisers and, indeed, are building 2 at the moment for Putin – to a similar specification as the one that the French impounded. Now ask me again how much empire he needs?

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 2:17 pm

Richard,

Putin annexed Crimea after Obama & Co. orchestrated a coup in Ukraine that established a hostile regime. That’s not empire building, that’s maintaining a buffer between you and people like Hillary Clinton.

A G Foster
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 8:21 pm

Sure sounds like Putin propaganda. Prove it.

A G Foster
Reply to  Richard Page
March 3, 2022 8:05 pm

Righto. USSR invaded Afghanistan only after the Shah took control of Iran. Stepping stones to the Indian Ocean. The Black Sea and Mediterranean are strategically worthless by comparison.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 2:40 pm

… so not sure how much empire he needs.

Does any man ever have enough money or power? When the avarice harms others, society has a responsibility to rein in the power. That’s why Congress passed anti-trust laws and nations sign mutual-aid treaties.

MarkW
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 4:40 pm

Why is Putin entitled to get whatever he wants?

Red94ViperRT10
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 4, 2022 12:47 pm

There was an article posted on Russian media, quickly taken down, making it sound like this is just a reunification of mother Russia. Obviously, the longer Ukraine exists as a separate country the harder it will be to subjugate and reabsorb it, but I think it may be too late already. It will be sort of like when USSR invaded Afghanistan, there will never be a peaceful state.

Jtom
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 4:39 pm

“Would Putin have invaded without the meddling and the aggression? We don’t know, but the meddling obviously didn’t deter him.”

This is where all logic blaming NATO expansion goes off track. If anyone bothered to listen to Putin’s rambling defense of his actions, it is clear his problem with NATO’s expansion wasn’t the threat it may pose to Russia, but the threat it posed to PUTIN to re-establish the old USSR/Russian Empire. He would be engaged in the same invasion if NATO did not exist.

Drake
Reply to  Gregory Woods
March 4, 2022 3:08 pm

Nice treatise.

BUT: The US had no business determining what a Independent State could or would do in the future.

As to the Russians in Ukraine. There are so many ethnic Russians in Ukraine because Stalin killed so many Ukrainians by starvation to make room for the Russians. That is a history some Ukrainians still alive today remember, and have passed that knowledge on to their children and grandchildren, and to their great grandchildren. They would never have been taught it in the schools of the Soviet Union.

So do MANY Ukrainians hate the ethnic Russians, probably. But Russia used the ethnic Russian population as justification to take Crimea and the SE regions in 2014. That population largely due to “ethnic cleansing” of Stalin through starvation.

So those defending Russia, look a little farther in the history of this relationship.

Carlo, Monte
March 3, 2022 5:17 am

Well done, David. There are tons and tons of crap reporting out about the war—early on someone posted a video (wish I had saved the link) supposedly of an armored vehicle involved in the invasion. It showed an 8-wheeled vehicle with a small turret and gun sitting next to two unused railroad tracks in a field with green grass. There is of course no green grass in Ukraine in February, and the armored car was a bit dated. It was a German Panzer-Aufkfarungs-Abteilung 4 from WW2!

comment image

Last edited 2 months ago by Carlo, Monte
bonbon
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
March 3, 2022 6:21 am

And Kiev honored a “ghost pilot’ that shot down 20 Russian planes – with footage from a well known computer game. MSM lapped it up, and had to puke later.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  bonbon
March 3, 2022 6:51 am

There was also lots of video of “mig jets over Kiev” that turned out to be rehashed from the Moscow air shows of years past.

MarkW
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
March 3, 2022 7:24 am

Someone posted a video. How official.

The only official videos that I have seen have been the grainy black and white ones you get off of a drone video feed.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 10:49 am

Design copied from 1945?

The one in this vid was definitely not moving, gave the impression of being part of a war museum.

Last edited 2 months ago by Carlo, Monte
Richard Page
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 11:02 am

Only Ukraine ones afaik – Russia upgraded to BTR-80’s as their standard wheeled APC some time ago. Purely as a matter of interest, has anyone seen pictures of BTR’s in the invasion? The only picture I’ve seen of an APC was a Russian BMP.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
March 3, 2022 8:13 am

MC,

The vehicle in the upper left hand corner looks like a self-propelled coat rack.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
March 3, 2022 10:52 am

Yeah, that one doesn’t quite fit in with the blitzkrieg terror theme.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  David Middleton
March 3, 2022 1:14 pm

Gosh David!

Is there anything you don’t know?

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
March 3, 2022 8:44 am

It looks like Sweden is sending military aid:

image.png
bonbon