Guest post by Robert Kernodle
A Website that Makes Research Open to All?
My title has a question mark in it, and my first heading has a question mark in it. The question mark in the title means that there might be a question about whether censorship is actually taking place, while the second question mark means that there is definitely a question about the legitimacy of a mission-statement claim. A resolution of the second question mark would get rid of the first question mark, but I’ll leave that resolution up to readers.
For readers who might not know, ResearchGate is a website that has established a professional network for scientists and researchers (with over 17 million members from all over the world) to share their publications, publish their data, and discuss their research. According to its terms of service, ResearchGate’s mission is to connect the world of science and make research open to all.
You can check out the full terms of service here: https://www.researchgate.net/terms-of-service
The First Question
Has unreasonable censorship taken place?
On June 3, 2020, ResearchGate removed an article by Physicist, Denis Rancourt, titled Masks Don’t Work: A Review of Science Relevant to COVID-19 Social Policy
Denis Rancourt has a PhD in Physics (1984, University of Toronto), is a former tenured Full Professor (University of Ottawa), and has published over one hundred articles in leading science journals (You can easily look up his credentials for yourself, if you don’t trust me).
ResearchGate’s notice of content removal to Rancourt stated, … our terms of service prohibit the posting of non-scientific content on the platform.
Rancourt’s own full expose’ of this editorial action is here:
Since Rancourt’s article in question was banished from its original place of publication, I had to dig a bit to find a copy, since all links to that location now land on a generic page endorsing ResearchGate as a place to … make research open to all. [implied eye roll]
To save you the trouble of searching for it, I have loaded a copy to my DropBox here:
I have read Rancourt’s expose’, I have read his original article that was removed, and I have read the terms of service referenced by those who did the removing. Based on all this, I have made my judgment about the actions taken in this case, which leads to …
The Second Question
Does an organization that claims to … make research open to all … adhere to this mission statement, when it removes content by a well-credentialed scientist, who carefully backs his words with known scientific facts linked to clearly displayed and linked citations?– an organization whose terms of service make no requirement of formal peer review? — an organization that seemingly exercises editorial power based soley on the way things are being done, rather than on the scientific basis of this way, which is the very foundation of its mission statement?
Again, I’ll let readers judge and answer this question for themselves.
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The quoted reason was “our terms of service prohibit the posting of non-scientific content on the platform.”
That could be an editorial line that prevents political issues appearing on the platform. And policy advice on COVD19 is clearly political.
This very website shows the damage that can befall a platform if politics and science are allowed to mix.
As does the IPCC.
Politics of Covid lock-downs is disputed, contradicted etc, but has it a scientific base?
Governments have ‘introduced’ a constraint on a natural process of on the Covid19 infection wave. Looking at another constrained system subjected to an outbreak propagating to neighbouring contacts (in this case Solar Granules magnetic activity), it can be seen a similar natural course of the time function development.
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/SC23-Covid.htm
Of course it has a scientific basis. Statistical studies ARE science. When someone states they don’t believe the house arrest of entire states and countries work, they are looking at the statistics and any correlations that can be drawn. Fortunately we have states that shut down and others that didn’t, countries that did and didn’t. We have states that opened early and those that are pretty much still shut down. Personally, I find no correlation that shutdowns worked and weak correlation that masks work. Actually, going deeper into the masks, the Mayo Clinic has an article that says these masks are worthless and state that you still need to social distance if wearing these worthless masks. Well, if I can social distance, I’m not wearing a mask. Truth be told, I haven’t worn a mask at all. Maybe a minute or two total. South Dakota never shut down. Even here in the Black Hills, NO ONE is wearing a mask among the tourists. Some employees are wearing masks, not all. Many of the employees who are wearing masks aren’t wearing them properly and I watch them constantly adjust them and touch their faces so they can talk through or around them. No problems with infections here. No problems in the states where most of these tourists come from (CO, MN, KS, UT). Where there are problems, like Florida, what’s the full story on that? Massively increased testing will result in more cases. Or is it something else? We don’t see correlation in other places that have opened up, like Colorado and Kansas. Anyway, there’s a reason we have N95 and N100 and there is no real substitute.
States like Florida reporting an uptick in cases are people going into hospital for medical procedures that had been delayed. Some of these are testing positive with light or no symptoms then added to the numbers. Case rate increase because of above but death rate declining.
“States like Florida reporting an uptick in cases are people going into hospital for medical procedures that had been delayed.”
Good point. Another thing to take into consideration.
nc Unfortunately we’ve seen an increased clogging of ERs in the Houston area this past week. Because of the time lag, we won’t know for at least another 2-3 weeks if this increase in infection will lead to an increase in death rate. The lag may be even longer this time because many of these recent infections are in the younger age groups.
I think people forget what “science” is. Science is simply a systematic study of something. So, what exactly is “non-science” to them? Simply sitting at a stoplight and noticing how many trucks vs cars are at the intersection is the beginning of a scientific question “What do people prefer in this region and does it change if I go to the next town.”
Read and understand The Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl Popper, and of Popper’s falsificationism. Falsifiability is the demarcation between science and non-science.
Yes, it is an ‘-ism’ but one must begin somewhere.
I happen to particularly appreciate The Science of Comjecture: Evidence and Probability Before Pascal by James Franklin.
This is what you get when you have ‘professional’ scientists.
They will then do whatever is necessary to keep the money coming in. Where does Researchgate get it’s money?
There subscriptions money from universities and libraries etc to be able to read the articles. Hence the payrolls.
Some journals charge to publish. Publishing houses offer at least some of their content free. The Russians think all publications should be freely accessible so there is a website called sci-hub.tw where you can access any paywalled article by entering the DOI number and read it. Don’t keep copies, that is a violation of copyright.
If your desire is to stay within the law, don’t access them at all. Circumventing a paywall is an illegal act, including whatever this website does, as the Russian Federation is signatory to the Berne Convention. Knowingly benefiting from an illegal act, even if you did not perform that act yourself, makes you equally culpable. (Even lack of knowledge would probably not save you; the “reasonable person” standard would be applicable.)
The only thing that would keep the lawyers of, say, Elsevier from cleaning out your bank accounts would be that you are a “small fish.” But there is nothing preventing them from deciding to make a “chilling example” of you, either (cf. the music “sharing” users of several years ago).
I don’t know if it is censorship, but I question his paper.
Tell all the Asian Countries, Czechia and every single Medical Professional that rely on masks that they don’t work and to throw them away.
I mention Czechia because it is the only European country to use home made face masks with no lockdown from almost the beginning of their epidemic. Look at their performance compared to Sweden to see for yourself if they had any affect or not.
They may not work 100% of the time, but anything that reduces Viral Load is a benefit.
But Fauci said masks didn’t work on 60 minutes. It is odd.
Here is the link where Fauci says face masks are useless (43 seconds) from a “60 Minutes” episode in March:
He changed his mind for political and financial reasons, not scientific ones.
A mask, to something as small as a virus, is akin to a chain-link fence to a mosquito. It won’t stop them.
But it “feels responsible”.
There are masks and then there are masks. Homemade masks made out of cotton cloth with large gaps between the mask and the face will reduce, not stop, droplets from a sneeze or cough but allow almost all the aerosols to go through it. Commercial disposable masks let through most of the aerosols breathed out or in as well. You really have to get well into the high end surgical and N-95 masks to reduce aerosol transmission and even they aren’t 100% effective against this virus.
Then you have people pulling the mask down under the nose where it just covers the mouth (my CostCo checkout employee). And when you breathe in and out the mask gets wet and accumulates the virus on the surface of the mask. Take the mask off the wrong way, rub your eyes with your unwashed hands and you put a concentrated solution of CV-19 in your eyes.
Think about walking behind an infected person with a disposable mask on at a store. Every breath out puts a cloud of aerosols around their head that will stay there for a bit. As you walk behind them you breathe in the aerosol and a lot of it goes right through your mask.
The best thing you can do is keep distance and be in a larger ventilated space, mask or no mask, and get as healthy as you can.
Hahaha. No an N95 mask isn’t 100% effective. That’s why it’s called an N95 mask. Designed to stop 95% of small droplets.
ANY nose and mouth covering prevents the droplets to fly meters away when you cough or even simply speak.
If everyone dons a mask, the epidemy dies very fast.
It is that simple.
It might look that simple, but I do not think that it is.
What happens to the big droplets that hit the holes of a simple mask? The drop spans the pore, and its form (as a drop that big) is inhibited, yes, but then what? What happens when the pressure of successive breaths push on that drop? — will it disperse through the pore into smaller droplets? — and will those smaller droplets move outward successively, building up, perhaps, an agglomeration of virus-laden moisture on the outside of the mask, which then could get sling shot off that surface by breathing pressure to enter the air once again?
Why should we think that the drops just magically stay put? Why should we think that fluid dynamics operates one way on one side of the mask and another way on the other side of the mask?
Oh, pish tush! Sounds like the argument that air with exhaled smoke is as bad as inhaled smoke. Anything that impedes the spread of those “deadly droplets” is significant if, and only if, they are truly deadly. Had we been facing 2.2 million probable US deaths, anything would help; with a likely 150,000 deaths, meh! As for mask contamination, expose your mask, hands and face to a few minutes of outside air and sunshine and the virus is gone.
Please don’t try to convince surgeons and nurses that masks in the OR are worthless.
If you want a 100% safety from the virus, build a bunker on the Moon.
The virus has R0=3.
This means, a guard that is 70% efficient will stop the epidemy.
When you and an infectious person both don a mask, the risk for you to be infected is well below 10%.
Alex,
It depends on the material the mask is made from. It could just act as a screen and break the big droplets up into smaller ones which will stay suspended in the air longer than the big droplet. The best study so far designed to answer this question reported only a 10% reduction in the amount of virus transmitted when a surgical mask is used – and even that result was within the margin of error. So if masks make a difference, it is small. Homemade cloth masks and bandanas draped over the lower part of the face probably have zero effectiveness.
I see you understand how masks work – they stop aerosols coming out.
So if you have Wuhan and cough the viral goodness is – partly – trapped on your mask.
If you don’t have Wuhan you are not trapping viral aerosols spreading when you talk/breathe/sneeze because you don’t have it. If I close my front door it doesn’t stop my dog escaping because I don’t own a dog.
The problem is first Wuhan is considered to be airborne, not aerosol, and airborne is going to pass through a properly fitted mask like rice through a tennis racket. So if you are in a virus hotspot – for want of a better term – your mask may actually be making things worse because the restrictive nature is making you breath deeper and sucking in air from a greater distance through those massive air gaps around your nose.
Recapping, yes they do ‘mask’ outgoing but if you have anything that needs masking you shouldn’t be in public in the first place.
Masks are not filters. They make you feel better and give people the false idea they are now ‘safe to maintain an extended social circle (aka strangers). A closed social circle will trump masks any day, but of course we have As Far As Is Reasonably Practical. This is the real world, not a text book after all.
Does your dœg bite?
“Take the mask off the wrong way, rub your eyes with your unwashed hands and you put a concentrated solution of CV-19 in your eyes.”
On the other hand if there is virus on your mask it means that those virions would have been in your lungs without the mask. Is that really preferable?
By the way, it takes about 10 seconds to learn how to take off a mask safely.
This is false.
Czechia had lockdown.
Not according to Wikipedia, they closed shops & schools, but no mention of closing Industry as in the UK.
“Czech restriction actions:/ Day0: Schools closed / Day2: State of Emergency: close of sport facilities&close restaurants&bars at 8pm, border control, travel restrictions, ban 30+events /Day3: Criminalize spreading virus on purpose/Day4: Complete closure all shops restaurants&bars ex:food shops, petrol, pharmacies/Day5: Nationwide quarantine ex: shopping, employment need/ Day6: Borders closed&closure municipalities in Olomouc region/ Day8: Mandatory nose&mouth cover/ Day9: Special 7–9 shop-opening hours for seniors/ Day10: Changed special 8–10 shop-opening hours for seniors. ”
Sorry if they and I are incorrect.
“According to Wikipedia…”.
You just lost any credibility you hoped to have on this or any other topic.
I suggest that you take a look at Wikipedia’s COVID-19 Pandemic pages for each country.
They are the most comprehensive of any on the web.
So scoff as much as you like.
A quick search of “lockdown czechia” reveals dozens of articles talking about Czechia moving to ease lockdown restrictions in April. Reading those articles one finds a description that Czechia was one of the earliest countries in Europe to go into lockdown on March 12.
While I’m certainly no fan of wikipedia who have a well earned reputation for blatant political nonsense on climate and other issues you can’t write it all off. I do use it for some things but you must always use an independent second source to verify.
Don’t be so hard on people. Chill 🙂
Mate, you were wrong.
Let’s move on.
Clever people admit their mistakes and move on.
Wankerpedia is a poor source for anything political, exhibiting significant leftward bias. Covid-19 is highly political in its origins and policies.
@ur momisugly A C Osborn,
The fact that all the Asian countries have developed a tradition of wearing masks merely is a fact of tradition — a huge number of people doing what seems to make sense, but that is truly NOT proven.
As for every single medical professional, well, they are doing so much more than ONLY masks — they follow other protocols to control contamination, and it could well be that these other protocols collectively are the cause of their success in avoiding the amount of contamination that they do.
Similarly looking at only face masks for a given country and comparing this country to another country overlooks so many specific possible factors that could cause differences from one country to another. This is classic comparison of apples to oranges, as I see it. It’s not nearly so simple as that, as I understand things.
Yes, I know about tradition.
I also know that they have performed better than any major European Country because they have experience in handling Pandemics.
The Head of the South Korean Pandemic Committee says that Masks, gloves & Glasses are essential.
So who to believe, you and this Physics guy or the guy that has 3 pandemics under his belt.
Sorry but NO CONTEST.
I suggest that you watch his video where he explains it.
Japanese and Koreans are peoples whose culture is majorly collectivistic.
The advantage of collectivistic societies is that dumb people learn to follow the rules from a young age.
Western societies are majorly individualistic.
Their disadvantage is that dumb people do not learn to follow the rules from a young age.
Masks without proper use are not significantly effective.
About 10% of the US adult population has an IQ less than 80. Those people cannot learn to use masks properly. They have to be taught to abide by the rules from a young age and Western societies do not do that. We teach kids of all IQs that freedom of choice is the norm.
What’s the advantage?
The advantage is that intelligent people thrive in Western societies.
Spot on about Eastern cultures being collectivistic and Western cultures being individualistic. The difference leads to fundamental misunderstandings of morality and culture between east and west.
As always, it’s still about “follow the money”.
Somebody didn’t like the lack of money in Rancourt’s arguments
Masks only work for medical staff because only they know how to properly use them.
Are you sure?
My wife who works in aged care, has noticed several doctors who wear full PPE but then visit multiple residents. CRAZY. They won’t get covid, but will surely help spread it.
I meant to say: masks don’t work for non-medical staff because these people don’t know how to use them properly.
And as for your example:even my dentist knows that you must not wear the same mask on multiple patient sessions.
What was he thinking: Cost reduction? Hassle of changing gear?.
People who professionally wear masks (and it’s not only in health care) stated that they always are checked by a specialist, whether the masks is put on in the right way. Otherwise it’s definitely useless.
In my eyes these masks are only forced upon the people to remind them of Corona and to thus keep the fear alive. A fear needed to supress the people and to lower the resistance against the vaccination. The vaccination that will flush billions into the pockets of Bill Gates and will bring him nearer to his aim to kill 90% of the world’s population.
BTW, Dr. Fauci would participate in the profit too.
It is the “appearance of compliance” mentality, which always arises when regulations are imposed where those impacted do not accept the requirement as necessary or reasonable. The objective becomes avoidance of being detected and penalized, rather than whatever the original intent was in imposing the regulation.
When there’s a speed limit, people violate it routinely and comprehensively until they see police doing a control.
If a business is audited and there’s a finding that they are transferring sensitive data without encryption, users encrypt their files and email them out with the password in the same message.
Surgical masks protect the environment from the wearer, that is why they’re worn in operating theatres to reduce the risk of infection to the patient.
Based on U.K. protocols in primary care:
We change them after 4 hours regardless OR they become damp OR we remove them to eat/drink in the meantime. We change gloves and aprons between patients.
In secondary care:
ITU staff wear the N95 individually fitted masks and visors because of the risk from patients who are intubated.
You are correct, however I’d like to point out that surgical masks are designed to block bacteria from the mouths of the surgeons and nurses from getting into the patient. They are not effective in blocking viruses.
Masks work for bacteria but not viruses. Just because mask wearing it is common practice in medicine does not mean mask wearing is efficacious in hampering the transmission of virus particles. Medicine has its voodoo component and is known to embrace the placebo effect. Put on the white gown and mask with the ubiquitous stethoscope draped around the neck and inspire confidence in the patient. The problem with pushing the use of masks is that it inspires false confidence so one feels safe to board that public transit or crowd together at the latest protest. But never mind, we are merely stretching out the infection period, not reducing infections one iota. A vaccine is still over the horizon so 80% to 90% of us will still have to run the COVID gauntlet before we can put this virus behind us.
So you know more than the Head of of the South Korean Pandemic Committee.
OK.
Your appeals to authority are unconvincing. Even smart people make mistakes and have biases. The best studies to date don’t show a significant reduction in virus transmission from wearing surgical masks. No surprise there, since they aren’t designed to do that.
I will repeat it.
You know more than the Head of of the South Korean Pandemic Committee.
Who happens to also be Professor of Medicine.
Did you bother to watch his video I posted?
No I thought not.
You belive what you want to believe and I will believe what I want and act on it.
Censorship in 2020
BBC recently removed faulty towers “ the Germans” episode because of racial slurs.
What’s next , Dave Allen or Benny hill?
They have long ago been banned by the BBC
“Waza June 13, 2020 at 2:25 am
Dave Allen or Benny hill?”
Dave Allen, brilliant. Benny Hill, his humour became too “old” by the mid 80’s. When the BBC didn’t renew his contract a few years later he was found dead in his Croydon flat in the 90’s.
What about Alf Garnett in Till Death us do Part? Can lefties handle satire?
The Woke Taliban cometh or is it a rerun of Kristallnacht and the book burners?
In their email, they clearly state what is wrong:
«… we reserve the right to remove it …if the report goes against recommandations of credible agencies or governments»
Ultimately, if any scientific report wants to “go against recommendations” then it has to fit the ReasearchGate editorial beliefs. If not, then it is removed. Simple.
Do you think kind of censorship held us back from curing ulcers?
I think that when propagandists are leading scientific media, anything becomes possible.
This is really putting things backward.
We removed the study because it did not match what some government decided should be policy.
Because we must have policies that are consistent with “The Science!”, or is that science that’s consistent with the policies?
Beliefs
That’s not the “science” that ResearchGate’s mission statement claims to endorse. Hence, censorship.
I agree.
There are no credible agencies or governments. Virtually all of them have been bought. Dr. Falcie fooled Pres. Trump.
Willis Eschenbach suggested some time back that the Japanese low Covid numbers were due to their culture of facemasks already in place.
No it is their natural isolation, just like South Korea.
Just like Hongkong. Very isolated place yes?
Also maybe the low numbers are because they don’t include nearly every death into the Covid numbers.
They also have studies showing a significant number of people infected but were asymptomatic. This study in Kobe is one example: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.26.20079822v1.full.pdf
This is significant in that they are confirming what has already been known to the data driven examiners, asymptomatic cases are a large part of the total infected population. Unfortunately, when you only look at models, data that is contrary is never seen.
Willis Eschenbach suggested some time back that the Japanese low Covid numbers were due to their culture of facemasks already in place.
Yes, I know that Willis is a believer in the effectiveness of masks, but, as I have said earlier, I do not believe that looking at masks alone, in relation to a certain outcome, is sufficient to eliminate other factors that might be the true underlying factors causing observed differences. Obviously, I differ with Willis on this.
Yes and those country’s medical professionals.
Of course it is not “just masks”, it is their experience of pandemics that counts.
The Japanese are also obsessive hand washers and tend to avoid personal contact with others (like hand shaking and hugging). This may have more to do with their results than face mask wearing. Just looking at high level raw numbers can’t shed light on any of this, so for the moment we are all left guessing – including the “experts”.
Masks do work:
Direct physical evidence:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
Meta-analysis:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext
“ Although the filtration efficiencies for various fabrics when a single layer was used ranged from 5 to 80% and 5 to 95% for particle sizes of 300 nm, ”
That is quite a range of “efficiencies.”
Read table 1. You can use masks wrong and you can use the wrong material for a mask. That should be a no-brainer.
Cotton quilt has already 96% if worn correctly where natural silk has only 54%. That is not very surprising to be honest. Common sense.
It depends on how tightly it is woven…my guess is homemade masks are worthless except against droplets.
Could you please do me a favor and read the article before you guess any further?
I did. You wrote masks work and I said it depends.
It’s not hard. Crappy masks which most people wear and certainly do not clean may work or may not.
You just proved that you did not read the article. Or worse, that you did not understand it.
Key point is that viruses are all smaller than 300 nm. Covid will go straight through. The only part that they protect against is touching your face after picking up infectious particles.
The droplets on which they are traveling are not. Viruses without water are dysfunctional.
I have to specify in case a nitpicker comes around: coronaviruses without water are irreversibly inactivated from all we know.
Anybody who has made a bed with 400+ threadcount cotton sheets knows that even air slows right down passing through it. 3 layers of 1000 thread count cotton with alternating weave direction would make a very good mask for shopping etc.
Provided it is correctly shaped with a nose pinch and handled correctly after use it is far better than nothing at all where everybody gives and gets a full viral load.
Fewer viruses will pass the mask, if you stop breathing 😉
Having accidentally sneezed on my computer screen a time or two, I can see that masks would be very effective at stopping one of the primary methods of surface contamination, if people with coughs and sneezes, and probably excessive speaking spatter would wear them.
But surely better to use a handkerchief rather than a mask ?
Ron,
I have read both of those studies previously, and, as seems to be the case with all such studies, they rely on assessments made in pristine lab conditions that merely gauge the blocking characteristics of fabrics under limited exposure in ideal settings. These studies, as with others that I have read, are also peppered with frequent uncertain language about limited studies, limited knowledge, and so forth.
Furthermore, the conclusions seem closer to statements of faith, erring on the side of hope, rather than on the side of observations in real-life situations.
The thing I seem to miss in all such studies is an honest discussion of human behavior. People simply are not compliant in proper care and handling over long periods of time, in circumstances where reflexes operate more dominantly than conscious thought. People accustomed to a normal work flow, under normal circumstances have developed a feel for how their bodies are operating, and that feel does NOT involve having an obstruction over their faces that subtly interferes with normal work flow and functioning.
People scratch, touch, adjust, and move reflexively, as a result of hours upon hours of ingrained bodily mechanics that cannot be magically changed with a simple dictate. People also revert to their comfort level, once the power that polices them is out of view. This, I believe, is why I see so many people with masks under their noses or worn under their necks half the time. You cannot simply ignore this aspect of human existence and pretend that limited, pristine lab assessments of material porosity performance is all that determines whether masks work or not.
Robert,
you can just disregard any compliant behavior because it is just to hard for people to follow if you wish.
That applies for murder as well.
Do we do that?
Jeez thats a load of shit
here is what the author argues
‘Why There Can Never Be an Empirical Test of a Nation-Wide Mask-Wearing”
In other words— there can never be an emprical test telling you one way or the other about masks.
Finds foot, shoots!
told you dummies back in Feb what to do. wash your hands, wear a mask, get a vitamin D shot.
“dummies”?
I guess when Mr Mosher called us all ‘dummies’ he let his mask slip. Now we know how he really feels about his inferiors.
Richard
Which does a lot to explain his terse ‘drive by’ remarks. We are barely worth his time.
Now I know why I find all those “…for Dummies” books so useful.
: >)
Mosher, ….. the “dummies” dummy.
Steven Mosher – June 13, 2020 at 2:50 am
“No feces”, …. Mosher, ….. if there was anyone that would know that, then it would be you, simply because even I know that lefty liberal Democrat touting socialists have a propensity for “cheating” on just about everything they get involved with. Me thinks it’s their “nurtured nature”.
Mosher, ….. masks didn’t work ……. at a Federal Prison in Gilmer County, WV, …. when they transported six (6) Covoid-19 infected prisoners from an out-of-State prison to that facility near Glenville.
It must be difficult for Mosher to be surrounded by people that don’t recognize his genius. I almost feel sorry for him.
For once I agree with you, especially on the vit D and hand hygiene
You Mackem’s get everywhere! Half my current staff (furloughed) here on Teesside are originally from Sunderland. I agree on the personal protections, but would just add the engineering alleviations of the problem, namely ventillation to reduce the potential virus loading of indoor air, and copper applied to multiple contact surfaces (handles, buttons, letterboxes) – slug tape is self-adhesive copper foil, and possibly UV-C sterilisation of air and/or surfaces.
Copper? Yep. Brass is a copper alloy.
Wha?
The URL of the website I linked has the k word. LOL
Oh, you can’t allow people to learn Vit. C, D and Magnesium will protect them! Not only could they manage to stay free of Covid (and extreme fears), but the less dumb of them could conclude that stuff like this would help them against the most other diseases too.
And you don’t want the health industry to loose a penny, do you?
Awe Stephen but you are so smart that you have moved on to contact tracing. Genius level 3 type stuff. Us deplorables get a mask.
Interesting. Throughout this “pandemic” BS, and before, I have practiced my usual hygiene in public places, ie, washing my hands after taking a piss or a dump, sneezing/coughing, picking my nose etc. And I have been fine. I am in the open, exposed to sunlight (UVB and a small amount of UVC) no need for masks, hand sanitisers or Vit “B”. What does that tell you? I will tell you. All of the media hype about COVID-19 is being proven to be just just that, hype!
Mosher, take you scare mongering elsewhere.
Well that’s fine for a strapping young bloke like you, Patrick. But what about us older folk? 🙂
How do you know how old I am?
Steven (the rest of you that are hollering “masks work”)-
The question here is not whether or not masks work. The question is should a paper that argues that they don’t work be taken down from a site that claims to be about promoting scientific discussion, Sixty years ago when I was in college, that thought wouldn’t have even come up. Questioning of established ideas was what science was about. Then the liberals took over academia, and political correctness came into being.
Removing the paper stifles the discussion. If masks are helpful (and my own belief is that they are) then let the article’s assertions be challenged and proven wrong. Let the paper stand or fall on the strength of its arguments.
It’s just laziness to say “I can’t prove him wrong, but I disagree with him, so let’s get rid of the paper.”
oe
+1
I second Clyde S’s +1.
Third. Geoff E
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts.” – Richard Feynman.
There was a session on medcram.com that reviewed the studies of a Vitamin D bolus (shot) vs. daily supplementation which concluded that daily supplementation is much more effective.
Not being argumentative, just saying …
There is a lot of evidence that low levels of Vitamin D is one of the most frequent co-morbidities with Covid-19.
I wish I could be as smart as Steven Mosher… he is my hero.
You could try lead paint chips and mercury supplements, Mike.
Just trying to be heppful.
Lol
Rich Davis
You owe me a keyboard!!
Steven Mosher,
Your comment has inspired me to undertake a new personal protective measure, which consists of wearing a clothspin on my nose.
Thanks.
“Finds foot, shoots!”
Not so fast as if the statement is correct then whole nations are indulging in expensive placebos the irony being that we like Finland discarded millions of them in a shipment that was deemed not up to placebo Standards- https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/04/09/finland-discovers-masks-bought-from-china-not-hospital-safe.html
Frankly just like the reference posting here if a science professional wants to put up some evidence that face masks are largely placebos and start a discussion on ResearchGate I can’t see much harm in that. Sometimes we need to revisit old shibboleths particularly when it was obvious we had to pay very high prices to call forth rapid supply and what’s more reject millions as not being up to scratch. In that sense the economics of mask wearing has had a huge quantum change and with it the cost benefit equation.
Masks protect not the wearer, but the others, often posted and linked here.
Masks are now becoming a symbol of the Left.
That general statement is false. Repeating doesn’t make it right.
Correct, they are a symbol of morons.
Level 3 surgical masks have an aerosol barrier on the OUTSIDE of the mask to prevent aerosols from entering the mouth and nose of the wearer. This virus is not airborne, it is transmitted mainly by aerosols, so yes, proper masks protect the wearer IF they are worn properly.
The ones I use in primary care here in the U.K. are fluid resistant and need to be replaced after 4 hours use regardless or if they become damp or are removed to eat or drink.
The main aim of a surgical mask is to reduce contamination in the sterile field. A visor is more likely used to prevent the surgeon becoming contaminated.
If a person presents to the ED with active pulmonary TB, the first thing they are given is a fluid resistant mask to wear, which is worn for all procedures that require movement around the department to protect the environment and other people.
In ITU they wear N95 masks that have to be individually fitted and visors due to aerosol generating procedures such as intubation and tracheostomy suctioning.
The efficacy of masks in the current situation is really unknown and it was wrong for any paper disputing the currently accepted wisdom to be removed.
So, I read the articles before they got deep-sixed. Seems that they presented 4 controlled studies that showed essentially zero benefits of mask wearing, with the possible exception of infected individuals slightly inhibiting aerosol spread if they wore masks.
This is all from memory, and I may be conflating other articles I read, but here are some salient points:
Virions are much smaller than most people realize. 1 ml. of seawater may contain a billion viruses. Expecting the mesh of a mask to stop virions is comparable to hoping a chain link fence would stop blowing sand.
Further, If the mesh were small enough to filter virions, it would make breathing impossible.
Any adjustment or faulty fitting of the mask will immediately allow virions to be inhaled.
One study confirmed that viral disease can be transmitted by a single virion, (the study was on insects, and I don’t think it was done on humans, but is likely true for higher species too.) weakening the idea that masks provide protection by lowering viral load.
There is a real possibility of enhance viral spreading with the use of masks. Virions may become concentrated on the mask, and discarded masks may be a real hazard.
In addition, masks do not protect the eyes, which is a known route of infection.
The above all seems logical to me.
In Japan where I live, most people seem sure that masks are beneficial. This may come largely from their use in the hayfever season. I suspect that they are useful in filtering pollen, but don’t protect the eyes, of course. The low rate of COVID deaths here may be because of early herd immunity ( I observed large tightly packed classes of young people in cram schools until the second week of April) much high humidity than other locations, generall very high standards of cleanliness, and, who knows, there may be a genetic component. I do know that there were very few people put on ventilators. I know of one prominent actor here who was intubated and subsequently died.
Not much change in Europe in last week or so, Sweden being only notable mover
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/EuropeCV.htm
You are off topic,but will just mention that these days the herds are inviting Sweden from Denmark, Germany and The Netherlands to visit their summer residences here.
My guess is what we see here is an increase in mortality due to these holiday makers have less immunity from living in a glass bubble. I am not only talking about COVID-19, but rather general immunity. My thought are that most countries play a very dangerous game with the lock-down, causing general weakness in the immune system.
“…..most countries play a very dangerous game with the lock-down, causing general weakness in the immune system…. “
Maybe. Acquired immunity for the present or even better all of the future mutations would be great, but as far as I understand neither is guaranteed. Further more, number of studies are already suggesting (while definite conclusion is still premature) that those infected either with symptoms or asymptomatic have signs of damaged lungs and may be developing Diabetes1. It a case of wait and see, since it may be some months or even year or two, before it is possible to see a more complete picture.
…the herds are inviting Sweden…”
Carl, I think maybe you mean invading?
: > )
For sure yes, invading 🙂
Always read through your post, before “Post comment”
Proof-reading one’s own writing is still subject to mistakes because the subconscious mind will interpret the written wording the same way it was “intended” to be written.
You might read it 10 times, one after the other, and it will still look correct. The result of s per se, …… mini-hallucination, …. whereby you are hallucinating the word to be written correctly.
To “proof-read” your own written verbiage, ….. wait 10 or 15 minutes to re-read it, ……. or read it “out loud” to yourself, …. and hearing it read will “catch’ most all mistakes. 😊
For the claim that masks conceivably prevent infection, there is also the claim that they conceivably enable infection due to decreased oxygen intake and increased CO2 retention. Lower O2 impairs immunity and higher CO2 decreases blood pH, which the virus needs to infect cells (it needs a slightly acidic pH).
Read cause of man, wearing mask, wrecked his car because of CO2 retention, reduced O2. Maybe on now banned Dr. Mecola site. He was one of the very first warning dangers of low vitamin D3.
Not that the air we breath out has already 4% CO2 in it…
A ‘Phobia’ is defined as: “an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/-phobia
Well I’m fed up with it! I refuse to buy into it any of it more. My only concession being in my contacts with the aged and infirmed. The left and their press have now made it abundantly clear that their constant drum beat of fear and their efforts to silence those that offer differing opinions that this is about trying to keep the economy from recovering. I will not live in fear! I will not let the dark forces make me fearful.
Their attempt to return to the hype of fear is not going to work! They exposed their agenda for all but the least perceptive to see during the riots, protests, etc by not calling out those participating for ignoring the prevention measures demanded of others to supposedly stop the spread. They simply aren’t going to be able to switch back no matter how much pure horse manure they push out on their presses and over the airwaves and make it effective.
This truck driver see’s their failure to re-instill fear in his travels and interactions with others now. On Thursday I picked up at a customer in Tonawanda, NY (Buffalo) that I have been to many times. I was there a month ago and they wouldn’t even let me in their building. Sign on the door said ring bell and wear a mask. Handed the paperwork for me to sign through a cracked door. Loaders and everyone else appeared to be wearing masks. Thursday I was there again and the sign was still there but the door was propped open. Nobody was wearing a mask and I went in and signed the paperwork as usual.
In fact I think that we sane people start using the lefts own tactics against them. Laugh at those apparently healthy young people wearing masks and gloves. Deride them in the same ways that the left has done to the average person with their PC crap over the years. Thus I would propose we invent a new word to use to describe those which continue to promote and abide by this covid-19 nonsense. “Ronaphobes”!
Love the word ronaphobe or ronaphobia and xenophobia for current racial conflicts.
Don’t laugh at them but if it comes up ask them if a chain link fence can stop a fruit fly or mosquito? They will look at you strange and say “noooo”. Then kindly point out that they are wearing the chain link fence and ask how that will stop the virus/mosquito?
I get a lot of weird looks but they don’t argue. They just are unaware of the size difference.
Plant the seed of doubt and let them water and fertilise it with some searches to see if “that crazy guy” was actually right or not.
Mask Wearing Correlates Strongly with Declining COVID-19 Transmission, Says New Study
Airborne transmission is the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19.
Ronald Bailey 6.12.2020 3:50 PM Reason magazine site
https://reason.com/2020/06/12/mask-wearing-correlates-strongly-with-declining-covid-19-transmission-says-new-study/?utm_medium=email
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/06/10/2009637117
The author is way off the mark. Masks are not for preventing getting Covid – they are for containing a volcano of mist from coughing, sneezing and breathing. It is to help reduce spread from those that already are infected. Since many are asymptomatic (no symptoms), the masks are to help prevent THEM from spreading the disease. So, he is right about one thing: masks won’t prevent you from getting sick. But that is not what they are for.
The question is not whether one hypothesis is right or wrong. The question is whether hypotheses that disagree with editorial OPINION should be censored.
It’s always been my opinion that mistakes are more valuable to learning than lucky guesses. In real science, competing ideas strengthen the evidence for what turns out to be the best theory. Without the benefit of wrong ideas to be demonstrated as such, we are left with dogmatic orthodoxy. More accurately in most cases, partly or mostly wrong hypotheses contribute something to a better understanding while forcing rigorous thinking that helps us better understand our lucky guesses.
There may be a case for censorship, if the question is preventing offensive or abusive comments in situations where people cannot reasonably avoid being impacted. Here I’m thinking of workplace harassment scenarios. Also situations that cause dangerous panic such as the classic yelling fire in a movie theater. If we extend the concept of offensive comments to any opinion that someone in authority disagrees with, or extend the concept of endangering speech to include ideas that might cause someone to resist a policy, then we are far down the road to tyranny.
John S.,
You said, “The author is way off mark.”
Which author are you referring to? If it’s Rancourt, then, in reading his banned article, you might have missed the part where he addressed the issue you bring up (about who the mask helps protect).
If it’s me, then let me clarify that I made no direct claim concerning whom the mask protects. But since you bring it up, allow me to touch on this: It seems odd that the same material can, on one hand, be claimed to block enough droplets from the wearer to inhibit infection of people on the outside of the mask, yet can, on the other hand, be claimed to fail to block droplets entering from the outside of the mask, thus failing to protect the wearer.
I would suspect that enough side leakage occurs, even if everybody wore simple cloth masks, to create cloud pockets of active viral droplets that could penetrate masks from the outside in, to infect people wearing the masks. In other words, if a droplet of significant infection capability can penetrate the material from the outside in, then it must be able to penetrate the material from the inside out, … unless fluid dynamics is magically selective.
BRITSH MEDICAL JOURNAL
“Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated’
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577
Having been in the painting trade I can say that masks are about as useful as tits on a bull. Whenever I wear a mask I end up breathing through my mouth and not my nose. The nose is very efficient in what it does.
Funnily enough recently I bought a head light and it came with a head stocking and that is what I now use in dusty environments and I continue to breathe through my nose unlike a mask.
The only thing to be said about a mask is someone who is infected is that their breath will be defused around them and not straight in front of them but that is no guarantee at all that you will not get infected.
I have just about collapsed on the ground with laughter seeing the way some people have been wearing masks. A complete joke. The other thing is that a lot of people have been wearing the same mask time and time again which defeats the purpose of it. When a surgeon puts on a mask they never touch it whereas someone not used to wearing a mask will touch it constantly and will touch their face more than they usually would. All bad.
Did you hear about the person wearing an N95 mask while driving. They ran out of oxygen and crashed into a tree. You could at least honestly say it was COVID related. The fear of it. I have seen it but why would you wear a mask when you are driving on your own. Mad.
Another thing about wearing a mask is that if you are infected you will be breathing back in more of the virus you have been breathing out so compounding the problem.
mikebartnz
You asked, “… why would you wear a mask when you are driving on your own.” I’d say it is a classic example of people unthinkingly following advice without understanding the purpose of the advice. It is just like a person, home alone, washing their hands every half-hour even when they are doing nothing to admit germs into their home. More than half of the adult population has an IQ less than 100 — some few significantly less than 100!
The street in front of my home serves as a well traveled bicycle / walking route. I marvel at the numbers of pedestrians and bicyclists wearing their masks in the sunshine and great outdoors. I am sure some have IQ’s of at least 100 but it just goes to show how the normally intelligent can be clueless.
My younger brother does auto body work (restoration of classics) and when this started he was thinking of putting on his full suit, respirator and air supply then run through a mall frantically asking everyone
“Which way did the man with the cough go?”
He never did. Thought better of it but damn would that have been funny.
I’ll go with Old Engineer on the subject of the article. It is ludicrous that people seek to limit discussion in a supposedly free exchange of ideas.
As for wearing masks, at a jobsite orientation yesterday the presenter said whether requiring masks on site worked to prevent the spread of the disease or not, they did serve the purpose of reducing the frequency of a person touching their nose and mouth, one of the primary mechanical activities likely responsible for infection.
REDUCE the frequency? Has this actually been observed and documented? I simply do not believe this is true, given my own observations. Rather, I seem to see more hand action going on about the face, where a mask is involved. Okay, people might not touch their skin DIRECTLY as much, but THEY TOUCH THE MASK, fiddle with the mask, constantly remove and replace the mask, which contaminates the mask and causes the now contaminated mask to touch their face. The mask, thus, becomes the object of contamination, rather than the hand, replacing one contaminating device with another.
I spend my career as a radiation worker wearing and carrying various PPE filters and air-fed respirators, for which the efficacy could be measured and exhaustion estimated.
I disbelieve any effect of a ‘mask’ on SARS-CoV-2.
The mass infotainment ‘data’ is so corrupt that we skeptics must trust and verify our own experience and judgement.
Exercise, fresh air, sunshine, good food, moderate alcohol are prophylactic to most ills of this shadowed vale – just as my mother taught me.
Perhaps videos of Bank Robbers should be banned by use of the police and from court evidence…..
Geologists use numbers a lot if they get involved with ore reserve calculations, so when I first read the clinical trials saying masks don’t work I looked up the size of a corona virus; it was given as 0.12 microns. I don’t think they’re chitinous and so could be ‘squared a bit’ for convenient packing, so rounded that to 0.1 microns. That means 1,000 of them could fit in a cubic micron, or 1 trillion in a cubic mm. if they’re packed cubic closest packing like oxygens in quartz.
If you wear a mask and glasses, what happens within a few breaths?–the glasses fog up on the inside; where does that come from? It is leakage from between the mask and the nose, blown upwards and onto the inside surface of the glasses which are below the dew point of the exhaled air. What’s in that air?
If the fit conforms to the contours of the face with an error of fit of 0.1 mm, 1,000 corona virus could pass through that gap line-abreast. This is analogous, using a shoulder width of 2 feet, to Trump’s border wall consisting of one lonely stake sticking up out of the desert every 2,000 feet. How much room does that allow in logic or calculation to contradict the clinical trials referred to in the article on masks that was removed from Researchgate, that found that they do not work and can not work?
Part of my voluntary training was in both surface and underground mine rescue; I have been on mine rescue teams and even a team captain. Both, but especially the underground training, entails extensive use of breathing apparatus for obvious reasons, which gave me plenty of experience evaluating just what it takes for a mask to properly fit facial surfaces so as to seal the gaps from leakage of toxic gasses and smoke; there is little value in FEELING that the mask will work when you enter the portal. When someone tells me that they are sure that a paper or cloth mask made at a material cost of probably 20 cents is going to stop passage of a 0.1 mm particle when this mask is worn on a human face leaves me staring at them open-mouthed and speechless. Given the numbers, and considering the idea that reducing ‘viral load’ may not be a limiting factor in rates of transmission, you have to tell me exactly HOW.
My conclusion is that any mask that retails for 95 cents is going to require a form of embedded magic to be able to stop the transmission of a virus, and I’m betting you can’t buy that kind of magic for a buck. And that makes removal of the article saying that they don’t work scientifically illogical; there must be a different reason.
(Note that the CDC posted an article on their website stating that….masks don’t work for viruses.)
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
Len
It seems to me that it is largely a numbers game. That is, assuming it takes some finite threshold to cause infection, anything to reduce the number of virion should reduce the rate of infection in the general population. There are no guarantees, just probability. And, most of the virion being expelled by breathing are likely to be suspended in saliva/mucous droplets that are much larger than the virion itself. So, even if the reduction of expelled droplets is small, it is better than nothing. It is the explosive expulsions during sneezing or coughing that masks are probably most effective — at protecting people around them.
Yes, one does commonly observe fogging of glasses. However, just holding one’s hand in front of the paper mask demonstrates that most of the air exits through the front of the mask. Again, the attempt is to reduce the potential viral load and it isn’t the same issue as trying to prevent breathing in a cumulative toxin like carbon monoxide.
Clyde
That’s an excellent example of good theory, and well presented; it all does indeed seem to be so obviously logical. Do we have a good understanding of the size distribution of droplets, however, or other affecting parameters? I have read that this virus can withstand 2 years of -20C temperatures, and can be re-activated with moisture after being dried. Can human breath contain a virus with a one-molecule-thick shell of water surrounding it?
Something has to be leading to the findings of clinical trials that, regardless of the good logic about masks stopping droplets and explosive expulsions, still conclude that there is no statistical evidence that they work; they’re getting through somehow. Certainly virus biology is not my field of expertise, but scientific experiment and handling of data are.
I have to remember Richard Feynman’s quote about theory and experiment–paraphrased as no matter how good the theory sounds, if experiment contradicts it, the theory is wrong. It seems that this is a good example of what Feynman was referring to–am I to accept that Feynman was wrong? Or is something wrong with the theory of how masks work with breath, drops and viruses? I’m still reading contradictions of how the virus transmits, even though it is a (corona) flu virus that I thought was well understood by now.
My personal view is forced to remain that the results of experiment of the clinical trials cannot be ignored. Why did they reach the conclusions they did, both in the referred-to trials removed from Researchgate that were the subject of this article, and those reported by the CDC? And why was the article removed?–it simply reported on the clinical trials, which was the original point of Robert’s article. It does appear that censorship of information is occurring on a site that states it will not do that.
All that said, I still remain relatively unafraid of this virus; data indicate that it is not a serious threat to someone who does a reasonable job of looking after their personal health. The health-care system scares the crap out of me however, and I try to avoid it as much as humanly possible (I hope everyone has seen the testimony of the nurse at Elmhurst hospital in New York).
Len
You asked, ” Do we have a good understanding of the size distribution of droplets, however, or other affecting parameters?” I would say, “No.” There is a lot of basic research that apparently hasn’t been done. Therefore, it is difficult if not impossible to make any definitive statements about the efficacy of various masks. However, I think that if there is a 20-30% reduction in viruses escaping from everyone wearing a mask while around other people, it can be helpful in reducing the apparent R-naught. If you will pardon the pun, it is no skin off my nose to wear a mask for 45 minutes while I do my grocery shopping. However, it would be good to have some quality research done on all the issues. Therefore, even unpopular positions should be available to read by those interested. Let the work stand on its own merits, not the judgement of someone who’s main qualification is being acquainted with what the current paradigm is.
According to my reading of evidence, even the droplets within which viral particles are suspended are smaller than the pores of a simple woven-cloth mask, and the issue of side leakage, in addition to pore size, would seem to enable a sufficient load of viruses to exist outside the mask to make any potential reduction inconsequential to the actual emergence of infection caused by a minimum load, far exceeded by the amount present in those leakages.
Sorry–quartz is hexagonal closest packing. How about sulfurs in pyrite then–although there’s little difference in the volume, cubic or hexagonal closest packed.
Len Werner, now I wasa thinking, …… just how large a surface area would a mask hafta have to be able to do both, …… 1) stop passage of a 0.1 mm particle …. and 2) permit sufficient volume of O2 to pass thru unimpeded to sustain the needs of a highly active mask wearer?
Samuel, I did think of that some time ago–and it made me consider a Katadyn water filter as they are now commonly used by field geologists and hikers; it has pores 0.2 microns in size, over twice the size that would be required to stop passage of a corona virus. One that will pass 1 litre per minute with a piston forcing it through at quite high pressure (I haven’t measured it, but the Youtube video demonstrating its use has the operator placing it on the ground while he pushed the piston with the other hand) costs $50 for just the filter cartridge. There must be an indication there of how much a $1 mask is worth at 0.1 microns. And I understand the claims that the mask is to stop large droplets, not virus–but the virus can still get through (and around) dry, and maybe with a coating of water molecules. ‘The science seems not settled’ on exactly how the virus transmits.
I’d like to try, but I bet REI will not let me try to blow through one of the Katadyn filters on the shelf to test how air goes through it–and I don’t blame them. I’ve never bought one–I grew up on a farm, and like George Carlin was ‘tempered in raw s**t’; I just drank from streams and swamps right through my field career with no ill effects.
https://www.rei.com/product/724044/katadyn-hikerhiker-probase-camp-replacement-element
Thanks, Len, ……. much appreciated.
Len
I have drunk plenty of free flowing surface water when I have been thirsty. Most of the time it was no problem, but the couple times I probably picked some giardia, it was no fun. On the other hand, almost every time I have gone to Mexico, I start to pass hydrogen sulfide-rich gas in a couple of days and have to hit the Pepto Bismal.
Ah, Clyde, you may have landed on the problem there–at my age I seem to pass hydrogen-sulfide-rich gas regularly enough that I can’t tell when there is a subtle change due to some puny protozoan.
Incidentally, and please don’t assume I am intending anything definitive here, just mildly related–check the gear worn by Qui in the photos accompanying this article. I assume that is what laboratory professionals regard as necessary to prevent transmission of a virus. Then picture in your mind that gear lying on a table, and beside it one of the 20¢-worth-of-material cloth or paper masks.
I do agree that anyone should be free to wear one–but mandatory is to me still not substantiated unless we have to conclude that the adult citizenry is simply not grown-up enough to know that when in public you sneeze and cough into your sleeve or a handkerchief. What’s next, mandatory diapers? Why, it’s for that very reason–not wanting to tempt further government over-reach–that I hold that hydrogen-sulfide-rich gas when doing my grocery shopping; not everyone in the store is wearing a protective mask, and modern mental tendency seems always to assume the worst.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/canadian-scientist-sent-deadly-viruses-to-wuhan-lab-months-before-rcmp-asked-to-investigate-1.5609582
That’s a great article.
The WHO released new guidelines for using masks.
Excerpt:
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/332293/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.4-eng.pdf (link is to pdf)
Good grief. Hasn’t the WHO discredited themselves enough yet?
First, the WHO paper is a contradiction of the CDC paper. ‘Science is not settled’ here.
Second, one has to love the wording: ‘the likely advantage’–means ‘might work’; ‘reduced potential exposure’–means no-one is saying that it DOES reduce exposure or transmission; ‘reduced potential stigmatization’–that’s just ‘feelings’; ‘making people feel’–blatantly obvious just ‘feelings’ again; ‘potential social and economic benefits’–‘make-work project’.
The key to the document is probably in the ‘reminding people to be compliant’ phrase.
I agree with rah the trucker; enough of this crap already. Clinical trials demonstrate that they don’t work, simple calculations show that they can’t work; no ‘feelings’ are going to change that. Like I said above, ‘feeling’ that the mask works is worth just so much (supply your own descriptive noun here, ask a diamond driller if you fall short of words) when you walk into the toxic atmosphere. If we accept wearing one just to ‘be compliant’ with government dictates, we might as well learn to bend over when we do it.
Stunning. ‘And not a shot fired’. (well, except for some rioters, and somehow it seems you can’t get Covid-19 from rioting and looting.) One of Trump’s better moves was to ‘defund’ the WHO. Didn’t shut them up unfortunately though; like bagpipes on the Muppets they just keep wailing.
So, it’s a quasi-religious (e.g. “ethical”), sociopolitical experiment with “benefits”.
It seems to me that if you are in an environment that requires an N95 (or better) protection mask that is properly fitted and you don’t have N95, than you are out of luck. I’ve heard the “something is better than nothing” argument. But to me, that’s like saying you’re OK to wear a good pair of sunglasses during your next arc welding project if you don’t happen to have your welding helmet.
Yeah, the “something is better than nothing” argument are words of desperation and irrational hope in the midst of just not knowing. Desperate times call for irrational measures, right?
PaulH
I would suggest that a better analogy would be if one wanted a high-value sunblock, but only had a low-value one. One could forego any protection, or use the low-value one in full cognizance that it is not as effective as desired. One might adjust their sun exposure time accordingly. With respect to COVID-19, there is evidence that, similarly, exposure time might play a role in infection. The message? Keep your trips short and infrequent if you can’t get your hands on an N95.
Are not masks to prevent droplet contamination? More specifically, droplet contamination of hands, open wounds, and commonly touched objects.
Going by Rud Istvan’s articles, colds are spread by droplet contamination, and flues are spread by inhalation of contaminated exhalation. So if it’s a cold, they could help. If it’s a flu, probably not.
The larger problem is that right or wrong, discussion is throttled.