
Reposted from Climate Scepticism
Posted on 10 Apr 20 by Geoff Chambers
By that I mean, has climate hysteria finally been defeated, and will it be replaced by sensible, rational, evidence-based policies for dealing with changes in the climate, or any other natural process which may or may not be caused by human activity?
Richard’s article two weeks ago based on an article by Jason Bordoff, suggested a reason for optimism. Bordoff’s article represents the opinion of a climate believer who recognises that something bigger has come along. Like someone standing on the beach worrying about sea level rise suddenly spotting a Tsunami. In this article I’ll examine the question in more detail, and attempt to enlarge the field of discussion.
Of course, “we” science-respecting climate sceptics haven’t “won” anything. All that’s happened so far is that one mass hysteria has been displaced by another. Whereas climate hysteria was slow moving, hypothetical, and largely invisible in its effects, virus hysteria has a basis in reality that is obvious to all. But there are many other differences, and they need sorting out. Here are some:
1. The speed and urgency of the corona crisis has revealed a number of things:
1.1 Mathematical modelling is not an exact science. Even the Guardian has admitted as much. The era when climate modellers could announce projections for average global temperatures for the end of the century to a tenth of a degree (and be believed) are over.
1.2 It costs trillions to fix a global emergency, and trillions spent on fixing a crisis are trillions not spent on something more fun or life-enhancing. The days when climate worriers could announce that spending trillions plastering the countryside with solar panels would make us happier, create jobs and therefore be good for the economy are over (probably.)
1.3 Vast societal change (for good or ill) causes suffering.
1.31 The causal links between political action and political popularity (vital in a democracy in the medium term for continuity of action) are anything but clear. (See John’s article on causation and meditate deeply.)
2. There is massive disagreement between experts on the nature of the corona virus crisis, its seriousness, and the proper political, medical and social response. This can be oversimplified and described as a debate between, on the one hand, a scientific establishment, represented by chief scientific medical officers and scientific advisers advising massive lockdowns and a halt to normal economic activity while solutions are found via the established methods; and on the other hand a number (a very large number) of specialists (epidemiologists, statisticians, etc.) who appear as mavericks, proposing unorthodox treatments and/or the acceptance of the inevitability of large numbers of fatalities, in the greater interest of society as whole (avoiding economic collapse and the ensuing social disorder, poverty, suicides etc.) Orthodox economists and other non-medical experts (criminologists, sociologists) may find themselves supporting the unorthodox, maverick side, for obvious reasons.
2.1 The above very rough description of the “sides” in the debate reveals enormous differences between the corona virus debate and the climate one. There are large numbers of experts who reject utterly the current political and social response to the pandemic. See this site for a daily update on the counter-consensual views of numerous experts. I have no idea whether they are right or wrong. I simply record the fact that they exist.
The days when supporters of climate action could talk about a “scientific consensus” are over.
2.2 The “sceptics” in the case of this pandemic are disparate in their expertise, but united in their belief that governments must look beyond simply “saving the health service” and avoiding the terrible images of old people being left to die for lack of health care, and consider the bigger economic and social picture. Their criticisms converge around this single observation: concentrating on the one single aim of reducing the number of immediate deaths from the virus may provoke a worse problem arising from economic and eventually social collapse. They argue for looking at the big picture beyond the immediate crisis.
2.3 Climate sceptics, on the other hand, accuse the consensus of being obsessed by a “big picture” that exists only in the future, and possibly in their imaginations and models. They have many, many different objections, from criticism of the data collection, the quality of the science, the projections, the politicisation of science, the insistence on mitigation rather than adaptation, to the propaganda and censorship in the public presentation in academia and the media.
2.4 The “virus sceptics,” it seems to me, hold a position that is irreconcilable with the mainstream view. Anyone can have a differing opinion on this or that detail of the lockdown, but their position is strategically opposed to the current political consensus. The division is binary. We shall know within a matter of months or a year or two who is right and who is wrong.
Climate sceptics, on the other hand, as different as Lindzen, Lomborg, Pielke, Lawson, or you and me, hold positions that overlap largely with the consensus view. Of course greenhouse gasses may cause temperatures to rise, and of course that may be problematic here or there (and possibly beneficial elsewhere.) Of course we can and should do things to improve air quality etc. “Climate denial” is largely a propaganda myth invented by the consensus enforcers. And of course, we shall never be able to establish objectively who is right, because of the time scale involved, and because the dream of zero carbon and a peaceful reversion to living in a concrete-and-steel-less Rupert Bearland is an absurd fantasy.
3. The world has changed immeasurably in the 3-4 decades since Catastrophic Climate Change became a Thing. The political effects of this pandemic are utterly unknowable. And I don’t mean “this changes everything,” “things will never be the same”and similar banalities. We don’t know whether things will be the same, or not. Politicians from Trump to Macron have seen their popularity rise. That could be reversed tomorrow by one false move, one tragedy that tickles the media’s fancy.
3.1 Behind these surface ripples are the profound changes in the politics of the West that go by the name of “populism” and its largely unacknowledged prime cause, which is the massive growth of inequality in wealth and income over a half a century of relative peace and prosperity. (I hope to tackle this in a separate article.)
3.2 And that’s just the rich, democratic tenth of the world. Add in China, Russia, India, and Africa, where practically no-one in our dear academia has a clue what’s going on, and you have a subject that would keep our intelligentsia busy for decades, if they weren’t so occupied with climate, gender, and the iniquities of Trump.
3.3 Catastrophic Climate Belief is a movement that for thirty years has been feathering its niche in the world-up-to-now. It will do everything to preserve that niche as the world changes in unpredictable ways, and we sceptics are uniquely well-placed to stop them.
4. There has been no rush from the climate establishment to link the pandemic to climate change. There’s been the Pope of course, but how many General Circulation Models does he have? Otherwise, I have seen no attempt by climate zealots to jump the pangolin and make climate change responsible.
4.1 No-one has explained why COP26 can’t proceed by video conference, seeing that the world’s future hangs on their decisions. Maybe all those indigenous delegates dressed in feathers and the members of the International Potato Council in their skins don’t do Skype?
4.2 Climate Believers find themselves caught in a dilemma: on the one hand, their strategy in promoting the largely imaginary climate crisis has been to capture the levers of power via international organisations, politicians in search of a cost-free (to them) ideology, a lazy media and the nonsense of a scientific consensus. They have established an official dogma, and are committed to defending it On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the official position on reaction to the pandemic (it’s too soon to characterise it as a dogma) is the correct one. Politicians are in the main lucid enough to acknowledge the need to change their tactics if they prove to be mistaken, when the lives of their electors are clearly at stake. Will they also change their minds when climate change is no longer useful electorally?
4.3 With the virus there are real costs, real dangers, and real risks to politicians and others who take up entrenched positions, because the scientific consensus isn’t there, and any assertion of superior expertise is likely to be contradicted by events within weeks or even days. The same Guardian health editor who points out that mathematical models have hopelessly wide margins of error, in a separate article, faithfully reproduces the prediction from the same model that deaths in the UK will peak 2,932 on 17th of April. We shall know soon enough whether she’s right or whether she’s right.
4.4 Whatever policy is adopted, and whatever the results in terms of infections and mortality, there is likely to be massive social unrest, together with huge swings in public opinion, and climate zealots will no doubt be tempted to take advantage of this to further the radical changes they see as necessary to obtaining their ends. On the other hand, there is a huge risk in being seen to profit from a tragic situation. Hence the great reticence of the climate establishment to take up a position.
4.5 Mainstream media are only as strong as their advertising revenue, and green blogs and think tanks are only as strong as their funding from the EU NGO charity soup kitchen and private foundations. When the pandemic hits Africa, how much will the Lady Bountifuls have to spare for the men in suits in the think tanks and the activists blocking empty streets? The Guardian’s climate change is already running a questionnaire asking: Did you take part in Extinction Rebellion’s climate campaign? Get in touch as if saving the planet is already ancient history.
5. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt from Andy West’s many forceful comments here, it is that this situation can’t last. Culture abhors a vacuum, and a movement as massive and motivated as the climate bandwagon is sure to come up with a cunning plan or three to demonstrate that climate action is more necessary than ever. How the public, the media and the politicians react when they do is anybody’s guess. I suggest we start guessing now.
This thread is for doing that guessing – and second guessing.
Aren’t we lucky we have so many experts to chose from?
Reason is unlikely to shake a belief, true.
A traumatic event has a higher chance of success, I would say.
The Wuhan Coronavirus pandemic is a society-wide traumatic event.
> Reason is unlikely to shake a belief, true.
Do you still believe in all the misconceptions you had, about the natural and cultural worlds, when you were a kid?
Because what you’re suggesting is that the human brain probably can’t learn things.
Have you communicated this revolutionary hypothesis to Norman Doidge MD, the neuropsychiatrist who wrote The Brain That Changes Itself?
No, wait, silly me. Sorry. Of course you haven’t, have you? That would be a complete waste of energy. There’s no reasoning with people
like that.In fact it is the case that reason is built upon belief.
Reason is the logic that allows us to extrapolate beliefs into a comprehensive world view.
Let’s pick a nasty shocking example. The holocaust.
The holocaust was a perfectly rational and reasonable way to behave.
IF you started from the premise – the belief – that there was a race called Aryans who were simply superior to ‘untermenschen’ who had about as much social usefulness as rats in a grain store.
You see similar beliefs espoused today amongst those who would lay the blame for their condition with ‘bankers’ or ‘capitalists’ or ‘big oil’.
Reason makes a world view internally consistent, but the fundamental basis of a world view is always metaphysical. It cannot be proved or disproved. It is just arbitrary lines drawn in the sand of an endless desert, and a post driven in to say ‘this is the centre of everything’. If we survive, we take our world views with us and pass them along to our children.
Take science. It relies on the belief that the world is a external system to our rational thought that in some monumental doublethink, we are both distinct and separate enough from the world to cast objective judgement upon it yet at the same time completely part of it, and the same minds that conceive of it are in fact an emergent property of it? Preposterous!
Science also relies on the metaphysical belief that the phenomenal world is the unfolding in real time of the solution to partial differential equations – ‘Natural Laws’ that govern and control the world in a totally deterministic manner. Nothing ‘happens’ without something else ‘causing’ it, right back to a Prime Cause.
None of this is amenable to proof. It all however works, just as a rather unpleasant ideology worked for Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s. An ideology that modern Germans owe their prosperity to, which is a source of repressed guilt.
Beliefs don’t have to be right to be useful, and they don’t have to be pretty to be beneficial, as any psychopath will tell you.
Socialised religion is a massive example of a metaphysical system that is massively socially useful without any need for there to be any truth content in it whatsoever. Who cares whether Gods exist? The important point is to act as though they do, or if you are a bit less sophisticated, act as though they do because you believe genuinely that they do.
The primitive mind believes that his beliefs are solid, real true and founded on reason.
The sophisticated mind understands that his beliefs are arbitrary, pro tem, and impossible to ascribe truth content to, and are the foundation upon which he constructs his view of the world using reason as a guiding principle.
The primitive mind craves certainty. One Belief because it’s True.
The sophisticated mind craves utility. As many beliefs as possible as long as they are useful.
Leo, nobody wants to have a single belief—that’s the job of a handful of neurons, perhaps, but we need our other neurons too, because even a troglodytic lifestyle depends on knowing many, many things—from the names of your neighbors to the floorplan of your cave and location of the emergency exits.
And to know something you first have to think it, or in other words *believe* it. You don’t know anything you don’t believe.
“A Single Belief System” might be nearer the mark.
Thought-provoking (belief-provoking?) comment, though. Thanks.
The climate change movement only exists as long as the easy gravy train keeps running; COVIC-19 could well be the tree across the line event for it. The economic shadow being cast across the globe will likely put those whose job it is to worry themselves blind about climate change on the dole in quick order, especially when real problems need to be solved with real solutions. Dreaming on others dimes about far future climate problems will be seen for the expensive pointless indulgence it really is.
As a prisoner of California all that’s changed is San Francisco reversing their mandate to use only reusable shopping bags to the equally insane mandate to use only single use bags. Tennessee has no oil and gas is a buck. California gas refineries and produces oil yet gas costs $2.50/ gal. And like all socialist systems what arrived with a vote can only be dislodged with a gun. We’ve lost and there is no path to winning. Rob_Dawg
They let convicts access dangerous sites like this? 🙂 Prisoners sure have got it made. We law abiding folk have to actually pay for our bandwidth!
A century from now people will look back and put the 21st century man-made climate change fable in the same list as the 19th century frenolgy delusion or the 20th century lysenko nonsense, not to speak of astrology, the philosophers stone, phlogeston and eugenics.
But a century is a long time and there is still a lot of struggle ahead.
The Global Warming scare, like Political Correctness and “Wokeness”, is luxury politics for financially secure upper middle-class Westerners. With the recession caused by the Wuhan Virus this is about to change drastically, and such people will jettison their adherence to CAGW the moment they have to worry about paying their rent or mortgage, or even putting food on the table.
A model is just a set of assumptions. The output of the model is the data produced by those set of assumptions.
If the output doesn’t match experimental data the model is wrong.
But, but, but the data must be adjusted to match the model……..
If the Virus Hadn’t Caused the Crash, Something Else Would Have
The pandemic has exposed the vulnerabilities of a structurally unsound financial and economic system.
By Satyajit Das
The novel coronavirus has already had a significant impact on the global economy, which will worsen if the outbreak and the shutdowns designed to contain it continue for very long. But it’s only an accelerant: If not Covid-19, as the disease caused by the virus is known, something else would have started the conflagration. Shortfalls in revenue and cash flows, caused by the shutdowns, have simply exposed the vulnerabilities of a structurally unsound economic and financial system.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-01/coronavirus-alone-didn-t-cause-the-market-crash
My problem with this is that the current generation has been indoctrinated with this AGW stuff from before the age of critical thinking – exactly the way religious indoctrination works. A lot of them will find it difficult to shake off in later life.
Combine this with Quantitative Easing 4 Ever and this nonsense could perpetuate for a lot longer than we’d hope. Things that cannot go on forever can go on much longer that you’d imagine.
I hope I’m wrong and a new Enlightenment is the result. But hope in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first…
The only way the problems of the United States can be addressed properly is to give Republicans control of the presidency, and control of the House and Senate.
I think there is a very good chance of this happening.
Nancy Pelosi is currently holding the American people hostage by trying to blackmail Republicans into putting her socialist agenda into the Wuhan virus relief bills.
If you have any complaints about how long it takes to get your money, send them to Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats. They have already held up your payments for over a week, and now Pelosi says she is not going to call the House back into session until May 4, even though the program needed to support small businesses and their employees, is running low on money and just needs a straight up vote to increase the amount in the previously passed bill, but Nancy doesn’t want to do that, she wants to hold the money hostage so she can force her socialist agenda into the bill.
So, if you have any complaints, send them to Nancy. She is your problem.
Nancy may be looking for a new job come Nov. 3. She should be, if Americans have any sense, and I think most Americans have a lot of sense. We shall see.
I am far from convinced that the Global Warming/Climate Change fraternity has been defeated even though many people are currently more concerned by the Covid-19 virus and, in the longer term, are very worried about energy costs both for their domestic heating/cooking and for their transport. My pessimism stems from the fact that many of the warmists’ desires have been written into legislation in the West. Thus, once the Covid scare has diminished, the warmists’ legislation will still be there to (mis)direct energy policy and damage people’s lives.
Since so very many political parties and the mainstream media in the West have adopted the warmists’ agenda unquestioningly I cannot see an easy way out of this impasse. The pain will continue until new political parties are formed that tackle head on the cosy consensus and the rent-seekers with their post-normal science. The new parties will need to address both energy policies and the secretive lobbying that allows rent-seeking to flourish.
There are many dragons to slay both in the mainstream media and amongst the policies of the warmists’ political allies; so expect the battle to be long and hard. However, the political gains for almost everybody in the West (apart from the rent-seekers and their friends) are considerable: better, more open democracy (largely freed from secretive lobbying), better policies arrived at through more scientific (as opposed to post-scientific) reasoning and, equally important, a more confident West that can distinguish real threats from paper tigers.
Regards,
John.
the covid hysteria makes the climate hysteria look reasonable.
14 Apr: Reuters: European politicians, CEOs, lawmakers urge green coronavirus recovery
by Gabriela Baczynska, Kate Abnett
BRUSSELS – European politicians, companies, lawmakers and activists called on Tuesday for green investment to restart growth after the coronavirus pandemic, saying fighting climate change and promoting biodiversity would rebuild stronger economies…
With EU leaders due to meet next week to discuss the recovery plan, a group of 180 political decision-makers, business leaders, trade unions, campaign groups and think tanks urged the bloc to adopt green stimulus measures…
Signatories included ministers from 10 countries from Italy to Luxembourg, 79 EU lawmakers, and chief executives from L’Oreal’s (OREP.PA) Jean-Paul Agon to IKEA’s Jesper Brodin and Danone’s (DANO.PA) Emmanuel Faber…
Ten EU countries, joined by Germany, France and Greece over the weekend, have signed a separate open letter urging the EU to ensure its rescue package supports the Green Deal…
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-climatechange-reco/european-politicians-ceos-lawmakers-urge-green-coronavirus-recovery-idUSKCN21W0F2
The history lesson from the Left in it’s many manifestations is simple: “Never give up”.
Pick any “issue” pushed by them and it simply never, ever, goes away. Sort of like termites that can live in sunlight, they just gnaw away regardless of opinion. They simply use any defeat as a minor setback, regroup, develop new plans, test revised narratives and then seize any event to restart their push. Even if it takes decades. The Long March, to them, was just a short little hike.
It’s almost admirable, were it not so misguided.
I am far from convinced that we have beaten the Global Warming/Climate Change fraternity, even though most people are currently more concerned by the Covid-19 virus and, in the longer term, by the rising cost of energy both for their domestic heating/cooking needs and for their transport. My pessimism arises from the fact that much of the warmists’ agenda has been written, directly or indirectly, into legislation in many Western countries. Hence, once the Covid-19 emergency has faded, the legislation will remain to (mis)direct energy policy and damage people’s lives.
Given that much of the mainstream media and most political parties in the West seem to have unquestioningly adopted the warmists’ agenda I cannot see an easy end to the impasse above. Unless, that is, there is a grassroots reaction to the warmists’ agenda and new political parties are created to address that agenda head on.
The new parties will have to defeat the secretive lobbying and the consequent rent-seeking that has given rise to the current, damaging energy policies. And there will be many dragons to slay in the media and amongst the policies of the warmists’ many political allies. Thus, expect the battle to be long and hard. However, when we win, the rewards for the West will be considerable: better democratic processes, an end to rent-seeking and the pork-barrel politics that attends it, better policy which has been arrived at through decision making unencumbered by post-normal science, and (by no means least) a more confident West that has once again learnt to distinguish between real, near-term threats and distant paper tigers.
Regards,
John.
Jon Cullen, you said that, “The new parties will have to defeat the secretive lobbying and the consequent rent-seeking that has given rise to the current, damaging energy policies.”
If citizen journalists act now to expose the secretive lobbying and consequent rent seekers……naming names…this battle might not last much longer.
Dear John,
Do you have any comments on the financial system supporting the “climate change” agenda?
In particular, it has been revealed that Blackrock financial, a “shadow bank”, was used by Canada Pension Fund (CPP) to purchase Industrial Wind Turbines in Ontario, Canada.
https://blackrocktransparencyproject.org/2018/08/27/how-canadas-infrastructure-bank-was-created-by-and-set-up-to-benefit-blackrock/
It seems likely that “shadow banks” are a new way to steal pension fund money. The question is can we get it back.
Blackrock is also purchasing US debt. Is it possible that Blackrock is using carbon credits as collateral/security for these purchases?
I have been listening to X22Report.com. The host there suggests that the debts of the Fed may come under scrutiny in the Trump administration.
Perhaps the “bad debts’, due to climate change and other schemes, can be written off. Let us hope so.
12 Apr: BBC: Coronavirus: UK confirms plan for its own contact tracing app
By Leo Kelion
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52263244
14 Apr: ABC Australia: Coronavirus lockdowns could end in months if Australians are willing to have their movements monitored
By political editor Andrew Probyn
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-14/coronavirus-app-government-wants-australians-to-download/12148210
Australia has about 61 deaths, with 1 or 2 new deaths per day.
Won?
Now there is an interesting proposition. Won what exactly? Won the fact that people are waking up to models that are wildly inaccurate? I sincerely hope so. I really do. Because modeling while it is useful in appropriate use is not the be all end all and perhaps this pandemic will finally shed light on a simple fact: garbage in, garbage out.
What I hope has really been “won” is a move to seek out sustainable energy resources. And I don’t mean “green” sustainable, I mean self sustainable….i.e. fusion. There was a remarkable breakthrough right before the lockdown of using refrigerator magnets–those large sheet magnets, coined fridge magnets and how those could be utilized for fusion as they are flexible and just powerful enough to sustain the reaction. Now that would be amazing. Think about it, what if energy becomes truly free…without expensive solar panels that have environmental costs, or wind turbines turning lakes into sludge for mining the minerals. What if it eventually becomes free, self sustaining energy. Pipe dream? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this losing focus on Mann-made global warming could have a silver lining—the idea of free energy. Warmth for the whole world.
If not, then lets round up all those that want to save the ice and forcibly move them to Antarctica with a few solar panels and see how they survive the winter.
So maybe the idea of self sustaining energy and the movement towards it is the silver lining in all of this. I certainly hope so. I’m really tired of paying an energy bill…..(sarc).
No, climate realists are not winning. The alarmists are making gains everywhere, even in the US: Cities, counties, states, are implementing measures to fight man-made global warming, despite the country’s impending exit from the Paris Accord… Which is not done yet, as it will only come into effect after the next election.
In other countries, there is no stopping the warmist juggernaut. The vast majority of mainstream media will not even discuss that there is something else than the Truth Of Man-Made Climate Change.
Climate realists are ignored and left alone to play in their sandbox.
Have we won? No.
There are many battles to fight. This fight will go on for some time. The general public are unconcerned about climate change because the other issues are more important, but the scammers, the hustlers, the 3rd-government climate prostitutes are so far in they won’t walk away without a fight.
The Germans and Japanese kept fighting after it was obvious they could not win. Some kept fighting after the war was over. If we continue the WW2 analogy, it’s 1944 and the Axis are losing on every front.
I’ll add that after the US goes off lockdown and the true depths of the economic damage is discovered. people will be less likely to accept policies that will cripple the economy further.
“You can fool some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.”
As long as there is money in Climate Change or Global Warming or hemorrhoids, there will be people trying to extract it.
Let’s not get too ahead of ourselves. This year it looks like hurricane season will be a whopper and climate change hysteria will be shoved in our faces the whole time.
Oh? what evidence is there for that?
COP26 can’t go via video-conferencing because the COPs are marketing events, designed to maintain the flow of funding, publicity and prestige. Hence the tens of thousands of hangers-on (masquerading as civil society), aimed at indoctrination of youth. You can’t do that by video conference.
Just Jenn:
“Think about it, what if energy becomes truly free…without expensive solar panels that have environmental costs, or wind turbines turning lakes into sludge for mining the minerals. What if it eventually becomes free, self sustaining energy. Pipe dream?”
Even if fusion energy is made to work it will NOT BE FREE. You will have to have some containment vessels to hold, people to manage it and people to deal with all of the government regulations. It may be a long term solution to much of our energy needs. It will NEVER be FREE.
No, you don’t get something for nothing
You can’t have freedom for free
You won’t get wise
With the sleep still in your eyes
No matter what your dream might be