Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been following the many changes in the IHME coronavirus model used by our very own most incompetent Dr. Fauci. (In passing, let me note that he’s been wrong about most everything from the start—from first saying it was not a problem, to predicting 200,000 deaths in the US (based on an earlier version of this model), to advising people to NOT wear masks, to opposing chloroquine. But I digress …)
The IHME model is here, and it’s well worth a look, although not worth too much trust—it’s been wrong too many times. To their credit they’ve put the results online here.
Another problem with it is that the presentation of the data is so good. It’s good enough that it’s hard not to take it as fact.
The model historically has predicted numbers that were too high. The latest incarnation of the model is predicting 81,766 COVID-19 deaths in the US by August 4, 2020. That’s down from 93,000 in the previous incarnation of the model. Are they finally right? History makes one cautious. There’s a discussion of the upgrade of the model here.
However, despite their past high estimates in absolute numbers, I figured that their estimates of the shapes of the responses is likely pretty close to realistic. So I thought I’d take a look at the projected daily deaths, to see what I could learn. In particular, I wanted to investigate this idea of “flattening the curve”.
What does “flattening the curve” mean? It is based on the hope that our interventions will slow the progress of the disease. By doing so, we won’t get as many deaths on any given day. And this means less strain on a city or a country’s medical system.
Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period. Valuable indeed, critical at times, but keep in mind that these delaying interventions do not reduce the reach of the infection. Unless your health system is so overloaded that people are needlessly dying, the final numbers stay the same.
Now, the model lists three kind of interventions on a state-by-state basis. The interventions are:
• Stay at home order
• Educational facilities closed
• Non-essential services closed
I figured I could take a look to see if imposing those restrictions would make a difference to how flat the curve is. Of course, to do that, I had to figure out a variable that would represent the “flatness” of the curve. After some experimentation, I settled on using the highest daily death number as a percentage of the total number of deaths. For convenience I’ve called this number the “peak factor”, and the larger it is, the more peaked the curve is.
So to start with, here are a couple of states with very different peak factors from two ends of the scale. The graph shows the shapes of the curves, but not the actual sizes, of the daily death counts in the two states.

Figure 1. The shapes of the curves of daily deaths for West Virginia and Missouri. Both have been scaled to a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1, and then aligned to zero. Both datasets slightly smoothed (Gaussian filter, FWHM = 3 days). For purposes of illustration of curve flattening, I’ve adjusted them so the total number of deaths are the same in both states.
Note that the area outside the blue line but still under the yellow line (bottom center) is equal to the amount of the peak above the yellow line. It’s the same total amount, just spread out over time.
Now, that looks like interventions are working … except for one detail. West Virginia imposed all three restrictions. Missouri only imposed two. And for those two, Missouri imposed them both later than did West Virginia.
So that pair certainly doesn’t say much for the effectiveness of our interventions. Why are they so different? Unknown, but presumably because of things including the density and distribution of the population.
So that’s what the effect of the interventions should look like. It should take a peaked curve and transform them, stretch them out over a longer time with a lower peak. And more interventions should flatten the peak even more.
Intrigued by all of this, I returned to the IHME model. One interesting discovery that I made was that for all of the states, the number of deaths before the peak is very close to the number of deaths after the peak. This was true for states with a high peak factor as well as a low peak factor, across the board. This should allow us a rough-and-ready rule of thumb to estimate the total deaths once the peak is passed.
Note that this rule of thumb is true no matter when the lockdowns are removed—all that will do is change the date of the deaths, not the total number calculated by the rule of thumb.
For example, Italy. Let me go look it up at Worldometer … OK, the peak was on March 28th, at about 10,000 deaths. That would make me think that total deaths in Italy will be on the order of 20,000 deaths.
To check that prediction, I just now looked for the first time at the IHME model country page for Italy. Until this latest update, they didn’t cover other countries, just the US. OK, the IHME model says 20,300 deaths projected for Italy. So my rule of thumb appears to work quite well. Let me test it with Spain. First, Worldometer. It says there had been 9,400 deaths by the time of the peak daily death in Spain. Rule of thumb says that the total should be on the order of 18,800 deaths. Turns out when I got there that the IHME model page for Spain says 19,200 deaths. So it seems that the rule of thumb works well, at least according to the model. Whether it works in the real world remains to be seen …
Next I looked at the peak factor for all the states versus the number of interventions, to see if the interventions tended to lower the peaks and flatten the curve. Figure 3 shows that result.

Figure 2. Scatterplot, “peak factor” showing how peaked the curve is, versus the number of interventions imposed on the populace. Red “whisker” lines show one sigma uncertainty of the median. Since there are only two states with zero intervention, no uncertainty calculation is possible.
As you can see, the total number of interventions makes no statistically significant difference in the flattening of the curve.
So I thought, well, let me look at the dates of each of the three types of interventions—stay at home, close schools, close businesses. Maybe there is relationship there. First, here are peak factors of the various states versus the timing of their “stay-at-home” order. Over time, the intervention should lead to lower peak factors, with early adopters getting greater benefit. Here’s that result.

Figure 3. Scatterplot, peak factors of the states versus the date on which they imposed the “stay-at-home” order. The yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. The trend is not statistically significant.
What that says is the opposite of what we’d expect—in this case, the later the intervention happened, the flatter the curve. Should be the other way around, earlier interventions should lead to more effect on the outcome.
Next I looked at the closing of non-essential services. Here’s that result.

Figure 4. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all inessential services. Again, the yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. This time the trend is statistically significant (p-value = .028)
However, despite the statistical significance of the trend line, it’s going the wrong way. The early adopters should be less peaked by now, not more peaked. Finally, here is the school closure data.

Figure 5. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
It’s sloped the wrong way again, but I saw that graph and I thought “Hang on … that one data point is influencing all the rest”. So removed that point, which happened to be Iowa, and took another look.

Figure 6. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
At least this one is going slightly the right way, although the trend is still not significant. That lack of a clear result may be a result of the bluntness of the instrument and the small size of the data sample.
Despite the lack of significance, I suspect that of all of the actions taken in the Western world to slow the spread of this illness, closing the schools could be the only one to have an actual measurable effect. Don’t get me wrong, any intervention has some effect however small. But I mean a real significant effect.
I say closing schools could have this effect because schools, particularly grade schools, could have been designed to be a very effective way to spread an infection. Consider. You not only have the kids packed in close together indoors for five days out of the week. Worse, it’s the same kids every day, so they have multiple chances to infect each other. Worse yet, they all go back home at the end of the day to infect the rest of the family, or to bring in new fun illnesses for “show-and-tell-time” at school to start the process over.
And finally, as all kids do, they wrestle and kick and cough and grab each other and sneeze and spit on the ground and trade clothing and eat bits of each others’ lunches … it’s a perfect petri dish.
So if you want to slow an infection, closing the schools at least makes logical sense.
On the other hand, stay-at-home orders where people still go out for groceries as well as to either work in “essential” jobs or purchase other essentials (and non-), that seems like a joke to me. The virus is sneaky. The Fed-Ex driver just dropped off a couple of packages here … there are still loads of people out and about. It’s all around. It can live on surfaces. It is transported by coughing, sneezing, or even talking. Yes, if you do a full-on surveillance state detecting, tracking, and contact tracing like South Korea has done, that will work. But you need to give your phone GPS data to the government to make that work. There’s no way Americans, or most westerners in general, would do that.
The western style style of quarantine leaks virus like a “closed” Senate hearing leaks classified information, and then the virus is transported everywhere. There’s really no attempt being made to track contacts. I suspect it would be futile at this point.
Overall? I see little evidence that the various measures adopted by the western nations have had much effect. And with the exception of closing schools, I would not expect them to do so given the laxness of the lockdown and the vague nature of “essential business”. I’ve mentioned before, here in Sonoma Country California, the local cannabis retailer is considered an essential business … strange but absolutely true.
Finally, I want to talk about that most mundane of things, the humble cost/benefit analysis. Draw a vertical line down a sheet of paper, label one side “Costs” and the other “Benefits”. Write them down on the appropriate side, add them up. We’ve all done some variation of that, even if just mentally.
Unfortunately, it seems Dr. Fauci doesn’t do cost/benefit analyses. It seems he only looks at or cares about the benefits. He called millions of people being thrown out of work “unfortunate” … unfortunate? It is a huge cost that he doesn’t want to think about. He’s not going to lose his job. His friends won’t lose their jobs. Meanwhile, at the same time that he’s saying “unfortunate”, the mental health hotlines and the suicide hotlines are ringing off the wall. People are going off the rails. Domestic violence calls are through the roof, and understandably. Forcibly take the jobs away from a wife and a husband, tell them that they are under house arrest, that’s stress enough … and meanwhile there’s no money coming in, rent and electricity bills are piling up, can’t put gas in the car, kids bouncing off the walls from being cooped up … of course domestic violence and suicides and mental health problems are off the charts.
Which brings me to California where I live. If California were a country it would have the fifth-largest economy in the world. Fifth. Just California. The annual GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the total value of everything we produce) of California in round numbers is three trillion per year. We have no hard figures, but it would not surprise me if 2020 was only seventy percent of normal, not from the virus, but from the government pulling the wheels off of the economy. That’s a loss of Nine. Hundred. Billion. Dollars. That’s bigger than the GDP of most countries, up in smoke.
And that’s not counting the cost of partially offseting the governmental destruction. First, the government pulled the wheels off of the economy. And now, they’re pumping out taxpayers’ dollars like water to try to ease the pain that they’ve just inflicted. That $1,200 check people are talking about? That a cost, not a benefit as the chatterati would have us believe. It comes out of our pockets. And there are all kinds of other associated expenses, lost wages, the list goes on and on.
So overall, here in California alone we’ve lost pushing a trillion dollars of value, with millions out of work, tens of thousands of businesses shuttered forever, discord and dismay abounding … and for what? For what?
Well, it’s for the following. Here is the IHME model projection for coronavirus deaths in the fifth largest economy in the world …

Figure 7. Projected coronavirus deaths, California.
That’s it? That’s all? Eighteen hundred dead? That’s less than California murders. It’s less than California gun deaths. It’s a third of our drug overdose deaths, for heaven’s sake, and guess what?
The trillion dollars we lost from the government shutting down the California economy?
It won’t save one of those 1,783 people. Not one.
It will just delay their deaths by a week or two.
A trillion in losses are on the cost side of the cost/benefit analysis. And on the benefits side, all we have is a two-week delay in eighteen hundred unavoidable deaths? That’s it? That’s all that a trillion dollars buys you these days?
Ah, you say, but more people might die if the medical system is overwhelmed. Are there enough beds and ventilators?
Well, glad you asked. Here are the figures, again from the IHME model. Unfortunately, as with the number of deaths, all the previous incarnations of the model have overestimated the need for hospital resources … but with that caveat, here are their California numbers.

No bed shortage. No ICU bed shortage. And we just shipped some ventilators to New York. We should peak in a week.
And while we’re waiting for the peak, we’ve just spent about a trillion dollars to delay 1,783 deaths by a few weeks. Not to save anyone’s life, I say again. Just to delay a couple thousand deaths by a couple weeks … look, it still wouldn’t be worth a trillion dollars even if we could actually save that many lives and not just delay their deaths. If it helps your conscience you could give the family of each person who could have been saved a million dollars, that’s only 0.2% of your trillion dollars, and the economy could keep humming along.
But it’s simply not worth totally wrecking the lives of 30 million Californians just to save eighteen hundred lives. That’s madness, that’s a terrible deal.
I have opposed this from the start. I don’t do a one-sided “benefits” analysis like Dr. Fauci does. I do a COST/benefit analysis, and we’ve just looked at it. Here’s the conclusion of that analysis:
Even if your hospital system is going to get overloaded, even if more people are going to die, put the trillion dollars into making the medical system the strongest and most resilient imaginable. Spend it on field hospitals and stocks of disposables, buy ventilators, buy hospitals, buy medical schools, buy beds and gowns, that’s what will save lives. I don’t care, shut down the grade schools if you have to although with a solid medical system you likely won’t have to … but whatever you do …
DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY, STUPID!! The costs are far, far too great.
Just the human costs are beyond measure. Lives ripped apart, suicides, endless worry and concern, running out of money to feed the kids, there’s no end to it, lying in bed at night wondering when they’ll let you out of jail.
And that’s all before we even get to the economic costs and the ripple-effect costs and the loss of productive capacity and the canceled contracts and the lawyers’ fees and finally, the start-up capital required, and the businesses that will have gone elsewhere, and the need to rehire or replace people and overhaul idled machinery, etc. etc. once this monumental stupidity is over.
So this is a plea for all you women and men at the top, the ones deciding when to call off the madness, I implore you—get up out of your offices, look around you, go to a small town and talk to some unemployed businesswoman whose local enterprise is now belly-up, understand what the loss of that business means to that small town, and GET AMERICA WORKING AGAIN TODAY! Not tomorrow. Today. Every day is endless pain and worry for far too many.
Here’s how crazy this lockdown is. You folks who decide on this for California? You are costing us trillions of dollars, and you are literally killing people through increased suicide and depression and domestic violence, and it’s all in the name of delaying a couple of thousand deaths. Not preventing the deaths, you understand. Delaying the deaths.
Killing people to delay death, that sounds like a charmingly Aztec plan, it comes complete with real human sacrifices …
Sheesh … it’s not rocket science. Further delay at this point won’t help. End the American lockdown today, leave the schools closed, let’s get back to business.
And yes, of course I’d include all the usual actions and recommendations in addition to leaving the schools closed—the at-risk population, who are those with underlying conditions, particularly the elderly, should avoid crowds. And of course continue to follow the usual precautions—wash your hands; wear a mask at normal functions and not, as in your past, just at bank robberies; only skype or facetime with pangolins, no hootchie cootchie IRL; refrain from touching your face; sanitize hard surfaces; y’all know the drill by now … the reality is we’ll all be exposed to to coronavirus sooner or later. And like the Spanish Flu and Hong Kong Flu and a host of diseases before and after them, after a couple of years the once-novel coronavirus will no longer be novel. It will simply become part of the background of diseases inhabiting our world like the Swine flu and the Bird Flu, all dressed disreputably and hanging out on every street corner in every town waiting for someone to mug …
My regards to all, and my profound thanks to the medical troops who are on the front lines of this war. The wave is about to break in the US, dawn is approaching, it will be over in a month. And hopefully, long before then. these insane regulations will go into the trash, we can stop paying trillions to delay a few deaths a few weeks, and we can get America up and working again.
w.
A REQUEST: If you know someone who makes the decisions on one of the lockdowns, or if you know somebody who knows one or more of the women and men making that decision, please send them a link to this document and ask them to read it and pass it up the chain so that we can all get back to work sooner rather than later.
To facilitate this, I’ve put a copy of this post for anyone to download as a Word document here, and as a downloadable PDF document here. Send a copy to someone who might make a difference.
MY USUAL REQUEST: When you comment, please quote the exact words that you are referring to. Only in that way can we be clear about what you are discussing.
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A dangerous virus can be controlled when there are still small numbers of infected people. Like happened with SARS and MERS. But in the present situation when there is already a general spread but still in relatively low numbers (less than one percent of total population) you can try to bring back the total number to zero or to near zero. And what will be happening in that case is that ‘the curve will be flattened’. But the goal is not flattening but the goal is that the curve has to be averted from rising to the highest possible top!
The final goal is even to eradicate the virus, like China nearly completely did before it started re-importing the virus from elsewhere. And if a total eradication cannot be realized for the full 100% a new massive spread can be prevented if the number of cases is reduced to very low numbers. And if all means are used. As the Spanish Flu showed, a second spontaneous wave can even be more devastating than the first one.
The result of ‘not flattening’ is an explosive rise of the curve until 60 or 70% of the 330 million people in the US have been infected. With not only as result a mortality of several percents of the whole population (and a higher percentage when the medical system becomes overwhelmed) but probably also resulting in a total disruption of society as well. At least, that is what normally happened in the past when there was a full blown epidemic.
THAT is what governments are trying to avoid: a full blown epidemic with an equal or bigger damage to the economy. It is not just about flattening a curve at high cost.
Reaching a spontaneous super high ‘peak infection’ is another experiment which did not work out well in the past. I see no possibility that in our modern interconnected societies a full blown epidemic can happen without causing a massive economic damage as well and without also resulting in a severe societal disruption. But perhaps I am wrong.
For now I prefer to try to control and some countries already were showing us how to do so. If we would have been much better prepared for a virus like this one, the price of control would have been way lower. So most of the present damage has already been caused in the past. The Green Madness attracted all attention and directed all money to possible dangers that ‘could may might’ happen ‘if and when’ etc. in the year 2100. Never thinking about preparing for a virus which could be a real and direct worldwide threat to societies and economies. The Green Madness also led to the Green Blindness. At high cost.
kind of unlikely that a respiratory virus will be eradicated. The original SARS and MERS petered out because in the one case it wasn’t that transmissible and in the other it was too lethal, also apparently did not have the capability of this one to persist in environmental niches. This strain is a very nice, from its perspective, combination of transmissibility and lethality. It transmits easily and it doesn’t kill that many of its hosts. Hard to imagine why it would disappear from every human and animal host on earth. H1N1 is still around after all these years, most people just have antibodies and they continue to put them in the vaccine. We are just going to have to adapt to it, as we have with flu. This is the first year of the virus, the first year will always be the worst for a new strain, because of lack of immunity. In succeeding years it will become much less severe.
Willis you say
“Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period.”
This is wrong unless you are saying that everyone dies someday
the idea about flattening is to keep hospital from being overloaded so that everyone can have access to the best treatment. Overload the hospitals and medical staff have to choose who gets the best treatment and whom gets thrown onto the scrap pile.
flattening the curve does indeed not lower total cases … unless you flatten it wide enough to get to allow the introduction of vaccination or other new medication.
Please read carefully before commenting… just a little further down IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH YOU QUOTED, Willis said:
“Unless your health system is so overloaded that people are needlessly dying, the final numbers stay the same.”
How could you miss that and correct his view to a view he already plainly stated?
you are correct
“Flattening the curve does NOT reduce”
was what I read together with the emphasis. It is a strange writing style!! Flattening the curve after all is about reducing the hospital overload to save staff having to decide who to treat and who to let die.
You ask “Ah, you say, but more people might die if the medical system is overwhelmed. Are there enough beds and ventilators?”
But you never answer the question.
To what extent would we have overwhelmed the medical system and how many dying patients would not have been saved that ultimately were treated and recovered. 2000? 4000? 6000?
You seem to suggest that we just let it rage and let us medical folks deal with watching people die that we know could have been saved. What the hell, you don’t have to do it.
Is the almighty dollar that important to you.
“ Is the almighty dollar that important to you.”
Do you not care about losing your job? Your friends losing their job? A family member? Do you care about the stress of losing a job? Do you care about those people?
Surely your government can provide aid to those out of work and no funds? Even the already unemployed can be helped from a rich government?
The UK seems to be trying to do this despite being in hock before this virus.
It is the homo spent thing to do.
homo spent=homo-sapient
“Is the almighty dollar that important to you.”
Have you ever demanded that we abolish the automobile? Tens of thousands of people die EVERY YEAR in the United States alone from automobile accidents that never would have happened if we were not allowed to drive.
Is the almighty desire to move quickly that important to you? TENS OF THOUSANDS of deaths every year and you do nothing.
(Or, your argument is bad)
Your argument doesn’t work you make a choice to drive or not to drive … you don’t get a choice to get infected or not 🙂
I think your argument would have beeb a lot more pwerful if you had considered only deaths in a section of your article. I hope you will use this to make another article. Suppose only deaths count. Many DO that that is the only thing that really matters.
Well, unemployment KILLS. Refusal to hug the elderly KILLS–social life is a big predictor of well-being in seniors. What are the statistics for these? If you add in these estimates, how many people are we losing for every one we are saving, however briefly?
Anti-constitutionalists are not merely traitors, they are DEADLY.
+100 my gran is healthy and active, she suffers the most atm from being shut off from her social interactions and from the constant bombardement of Covid 19 “news”. I’m in Germany and the thing that scares me the most is how willingly and happily people give up their individual right to freedom. I have friends who positively revel in the new restrictions without questioning any of these draconian measures. Brings darker times to mind.
Stay healthy xx
Love your stuff, Willis. But I have a major quibble here.
We agree that “flattening the curve” can delay the rate of infection. The primary benefit is to buy time to establish treatments that will lower the “cost” of each infection. It is not that we will reduce the number of infections or spread the same number of infections over a longer time; it is to make the severity of each infection much less. This assumes that medical research and experience CAN learn to treat a virus more effectively with time.
“Cost of each infection” in the above could be measured in “man-days lost to illness.”
A1. Hospitalizations would not only cost the day in the hospital, but include convalescence, the man-days of the hospital staff taking care of you, plus the materials you use. Each infection could run from 100 man-days to a thousand if there is permanent lung damage.
A2. Deaths due to COVID-19 triggered related cause of death could be hundreds to tens of thousands of man-days depending upon the patient’s age and health prior to the virus.
A3. On the other hand, asymptomatic infections have a handful of man-days loss by definition.
A4. Finally, We WILL discover and utilize a treatments that mitigates a future hospitalization to that of a common cold or flu, then each infection has a cost of about 10 man days. This proportion of the population must increase with the number of lockdown days. Categories 1 and 2 would correspondingly drop. (A4) must be a function of LockDownDays to a negative exponent. (A4) must be lower for a 40 day lockdown than a 20 day lockdown, or there is no point in having a lockdown at all.
The CostofInfections must be treated as the total cost of an entire population. Eventually, everyone will be infected, everyone will fall into one of the four infection cost categories. Furthermore the partial derivative d(CostofInfections)/d(LockdownDays) must be negative.
There is also a cost of the lockdown, also in man-days.
LockdownCost would be something like
= Population * (Productivity Loss Factor) * LockdownDays^alpha
Population are the people affected by the lockdown.
(Productivity Loss Factor) is a value that recognizes that even under lockdown, some work is getting done, even if it only cleaning the house. Others are “essential workers”. This factor is between 0 and 1, but I think a good estimate is about 0.8-0.9. a person in 10 days of lockdown, will have lost 8 -9 man-days of productive life. (Conceivably, it is >1 if you have to eat your seed corn).
LockdownDays are days under lockdown.
alpha is an exponent of the LockdownDays which is almost certainly greater than 1, probably in the range 1.05-1.3. This is to recognize that 30 days under lockdown is almost certainly more costly than twice the cost of a 15 day lockdown. It will take longer to restart the economy, to restart supply lines, to get things back to ‘Normal”
We are left then with an optimization problem:
Minimize Total Man-Days Lost = LockdownCost + CostOfInfections.
The partial Derivatives:
d(lockdownCost)/d(LockdownDays) is positive and increasing (2nd derivative positive)
d(CostOfInfections)/d(LockdownDays) MUST BE NEGATIVE (else optimum LockdownDays == 0) and has a positive 2nd derivative.
Under these circumstances, the optimum LockdownDays is when
Per day marginal LockdownCost + marginal CostofInfections = 0
JoeShaw
All those who do not catch COVID-19 during this phase, will lack immunity. They will therefore be at risk of catching it during subsequent outbreaks, which will surely happen unless an effective vaccine is developed quickly (unlikely), or a large enough percentage of the population acquires immunity through infection as to inhibit transmission. Those who are dying now, typically have comorbidities. A year from now, if they haven’t died from the comorbidities, they will be even more susceptible to this or other infections. So, looked at from the viewpoint of a closed system, any particular region that gets infected may suffer a large loss of life from the infection burning through the most susceptible before it wanes. However, given a longer period of time and random exposures, almost everyone will eventually be exposed, and if one is in the high-risk group, may well die. I suspect that one of the consequences of the social distancing will not only be delaying the peak, but to increase the length of the tail into the future. More formally, social distancing will affect both the kurtosis and skewness of the distribution curve. Places like NYC will probably have an excess of deaths from inadequate resources, regardless of what is done, while cities in Ohio will probably not face the same challenges regardless of mitigation strategies.
If we could some how segregate those under 40 that are healthy and then put no quarantine rules on them and no social distancing rules on them, this would produce a good deal of herd immunity quickly with low amount of deaths.
Stevek
Any rational person in the high-risk category would self-isolate and doesn’t need to be compelled to do so under threat of punishment.
Clyde, I completely agree that in the absence of an effective vaccine a significant fraction of the population will eventually get infected. In the absence of mitigation measures we were on track to have a large fraction of the population get infected in the next few months while we are still grossly unprepared and lack effective treatments. The value of the measures is in potentially buying time to get those treatments, and hopefully get a working vaccine. Depending on how the current clinical trials go we could have treatments that significantly reduce mortality within months.
As a guy with a couple of unhelpful co-morbidities it irks me that there is a widespread misunderstanding of the risk factors, and lack of useful data to calculate conditional probabilities of illness or death. At my age my likelihood of dying from one of the co-morbidities in the next year is about 1%, so yes, I plan to still be around next year. Available data suggests that my chances of dying in the next month if I get infected with COVID-19 rise to about 10%. The good news is that the available data is a biased sample of patients that got sick enough to get tested / hospitalized. It does not account for mild or asymptomatic cases so the actual risk is probably lower. We don’t know today. We also don’t know whether the increased mortality is due to the underlying conditions, or their treatment with ACE inhibitors and ARBs. Hopefully we will know these things before COVID 19 has infected most of the population.
Cheers
Mr. Eschenbach:
I’ve been following the many changes in the IHME coronavirus model . . .
Brilliant, thank you! I’ve been hoping a competent someone would.
Would you consider doing another article at the end of all this that, if possible, comprehensively evaluates the IHME model’s predictive ability from start to finish?
Spain, Italy, France, UK are running about 10% dead per known case, and they are weeks ahead of you gus, and you have almost half a million known cases.
And we havent even peaked.
And then you have the waves of infections this thing will cause till you are either dead or immune.
As much as you can knock models, you guys are in for a rough ride. We all are, but expect in the long term anywhere up to 1% of the population to die.
OK, that is a max, a ceiling. But it is there. Just give it a year and you will see. This thing is a killer, particularly of the type 2 diabetic and fat people. If you are fat and 30, you are in trouble. If you arent you wont even have symptoms. And you guys in the US have plenty of those, be honest eh.
What we are seeing here it could be the Darwin’s law of natural selection in action this time enforced by the CV-16 epidemic. Without government’s interference mainly old, genetically or immunity inferior would (but not always) die, while predominantly younger and immunity stronger would survive. Eliminating all those who are unable to naturally overcome the infection would reduce country’s overall average age and to a degree make the country genetically stronger and healthier.
Governments are charged to look after economic well-being of the country and its population, while the parliaments and religious leaders (wherever applicable) should have responsibility to resolve the moral quandary of how much society should do or sacrifice either in monetary or human life terms to prevent the onslaught of the disease whatever its origins were.
In the UK, Chancellor of the Exchequer on behalf of the current government has presented to the parliament fiscal measures of action, which I believe were passed into legislation by both houses. Progression and the outcome of the conflict between the law of natural selection and a scientifically advanced, economically strong, mature parliamentary democracy may leave a generation long-lasting effect on the psyche of the nation.
re: “Darwin’s law of natural selection in action ”
By “front-loading” the deaths of a ‘weak and infirm’ demographic (due to Covid-19) early in the year versus ‘spread out’ a little more evenly throughout the year …
Since the vast majority of those who have been swept away by the ChiCom virus were past reproductive age, the Darwin effect would be minimal.
I would feel more confident in our leaders if they would establish some criteria for reducing and/or ending the lockdown, preferably based on a Willis-like cost/benefit analysis.
My fear is they have no idea, and they’re simply huddled around the ouiga-board models, waiting for the other guy to make a decision. A lockdown-deadlock, if you will.
” Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period.”
This is only the true if everything else remains the same –which it won’t. We will get smarter about treating the disease. As more treatments come on line we will lower the fatality rate. Lessen the pressure on hospitals will result in better care which will also lower the fatality rate. Finding out what works and what doesn’t requires time. Flattening the curve buys time. So flatten the curve should reduce deaths.
Maybe, but that’s asking for a lot better treatment outcomes for the those unlucky 65+ unhealthy folk being cutdown by covid. Who, as Willis doesn’t point out had pre existing conditions that will mostly be lowering death stats elsewhere.
NY 380 deaths per million population
CA 11
Worldometer stats as of April 7th
IMEH sees CA peak surge in couple days. With a CA total death rate though early August 20x lower than NY when population adjusted. How?
Do those numbers hold when we undo the social distance, go back to work and school? What then?
Do we wait another month, three months, a year for those cures and treatments? How long do early adopters of mitigation need to wait till the above disparity is something more useful than just evidence of delay.
Very interesting viewpoint. Some contrasts, using unproven ventilation protocols while suggesting Chloroquine should not be used. Issuing unproven stay at home orders with only a time push result expected. Best of all hide the results. Thank you Willis for the thoughtful presentation.
A reason why you are seeing a spike in early adopters of restrictions versus slow adopters could be the percentage of their populations that are being tested. If you don’t test your population you have no idea how widespread the infection is across your population.
The very large differences in testing numbers across countries and states make the majority of these estimates unreliable.
I’ve read a lot of bad stuff about the role of Dr Tedros of the WHO concerning coronavirus mainly accusing him of being a puppet of the Chinese Communist Party. Is any of it true? I know there is a petition out for him to resign and it currently has over 750,000 signatures.
Here is Paul Homewood’s take on it.
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2020/04/05/who-is-dr-tedros/
I saw a news item this morning saying the U.S. Senate wants to talk to Dr. Tedros.
I wonder if he will show up? If he doesn’t, it will put his money in jeopardy. Maybe he thinks he can safely fall back on China’s leadership and will defy the United States. He didn’t help himself by threatening the United States in his last public statement. That’s probably one thing the U.S. Senate wants to talk to him about. 🙂
He looks like a Chinese puppet to me. At a minimum, the United States should demand his resignation.
Flattening the curve allows to gain time which can be used to improve or find new therapies for the disease. In the end, it does help to save lives. I do agree that a cost/benefit analysis should be mandatory. Otherwise it’s like shooting your house down to get a fly on the wall…
That would be crazy.
For a spider, though…
“Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period.”
But flattening the curve buys time for the production and distribution of protective gear and drugs (like hydroxychloroquine, remesivir, ivermectin and antivirals) to ramp up. Some of those drugs provide not just a degree of treatment but a degree of protection as well. Therefore, THIS current lockdown should pay off in a lower overall case count and death count.
(BTW, the argument that some make, that the “excess death count” is down, is irrelevant. It wouldn’t be if there were no quarantines in place. I.e., deaths from regular flu would be higher, as would deaths from auto and workplace accidents.)
Willis,
You appear to be confusing the best and worst case scenarios. The IHME model
represents the best case scenario involving social distancing and good public health
measures. If the USA follows the best approach then the IHME model predicts that
roughly 80000 people will die in the first wave. Again this is the best case scenario.
The worse case scenario is that the USA does nothing and goes about life as norma. In
this case the predictions are truely dire with roughly 2 million people dying. So the question
needs to be asked is how do you quantify the cost of the worse case and how much should you
spend to prevent it. According to various economists and actuaries the “value” of a human
life in the US is about 10 million dollars. So the cost to society in the worst case is between
10 and 20 trillion dollars (ballpark figures given the large uncertainties in the values). See
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-out-of-many-one-36b886af37e9
for an overview of the calculations.
Now the proposition is how much money should the government spend to avoid a potential
loss of 10 trillion dollars? Congress has so far allocated 2 trillion or about 20% of the potential
worse case scenario.
If you want to claim that 2 trillion dollars is too much then you need to state:
1) What your estimate is of the number of deaths in the worst case scenario (i.e.
everyone goes about their usual business and no social distancing)?
2) What value you place on a human life? And so what is the cost to society from
doing nothing?
Neither of which you have done. Until you are upfront about your calculations we have
no reason to accept your conclusions.
Nowhere does the IHME team make any actual projection of deaths without any mitigation spread measures or with alternative mitigation spread strategies, as I pointed out in a comment above. They just make a general reference to other models, presumably the laughable original Imperial college one, which projected huge numbers of deaths. So again, people can, and have been, making up any number of lost lives, and then of course when the actual number comes in lower you can claim your shutdown saved the full difference.
And Willis is absolutely right in his calculation of the economic impact. The US economy was originally projected to be over $22 trillion in 2020. Current consensus, assuming removal of the shutdown in the near future, is for a decline of 25% to 30%, which is in itself an unfathomable event. California is a large percent of the US economy, so a trillion dollar hit to its economy is certainly possible.
Kevin,
the Imperial college predictions do not seem that widely inaccurate as a worse
case scenario. Currently both the UK and Italy for example have a case fatality rate
of over 10% while globally currently about 5% of those reported infections die while
in the best cases it seems to be about 1 or 2%. Assuming that 20% of the US population (roughly 300 million) gets infected a 5% fatality rate rate would give 3 million deaths
in the US. In contrast the Imperial College model predicted 2.2 million deaths.
Of course the number who actually die is likely to be considerably less than 2.2 million
for the simple reason that people will look at that number and immediately start behaving differently so as to reduce the chance of that happening. Which is why once people started practising social distancing the predictions from the Imperial College team came down so dramatically.
too early to talk about case fatality rates, since we don’t know how many infections there are, we only know positive test results and there is widespread agreement that infections are multiples of positive tests. Deaths per million is a little more sensible, but rises with every death, and we are early in the epidemic. Still gives you a little basis for comparison across countries and with other causes of death
Kevin,
You have to talk about case fatality rates now if you want to predict what
people should do to keep the fatalities down. And what is even worse you
have to make an educated guess really early on in the epidemic and decide
whether to go into lockdown or let the virus run its course. So I am not sure
what you are suggesting here? Just wait until everybody who might die has died and then decide retrospectively what the best course of action was?
Not sure what your point is by quoting case fatality rate. Early in epidemic no one knows what the case fatality rate is because you don’t know the infection rate. So acting like 10% or 5% of the “cases” are going to die is meaningless. Pretty standard epidemiology that you won’t know the actual case fatality rate until you know the actual number of infections. Go back to the early stuff from Birx and Fauci and you will hear them say that. Only the really sick people show up at first and go to hospitals and they are the most likely to die. So the case fatality rate is meaningless. Once the epidemic is pretty much done, people calculate it to compare lethality of the infectious agent. It always drops as the true scope of an epidemic becomes clear. Think of it this way, if you only took flu deaths as a proportion of people who needed to be hospitalized, you would get a far higher number than if you take it of everybody who got the flu. What may be informative about how serious an outbreak is just the raw number of people who die early on. But you have to remember the most susceptible get sick first so it is very skewed. Bad sampling of the whole population of cases–which is all infections. So people throw around things like case fatality rates without thinking about how they are actually used.
Kevin,
The point about case fatality rates is that you have to use something to estimate how
serious the threat is. Do you have a better way to estimate the maximum number of
possible deaths for a worse case scenario?
That is the problem, using estimates without a factual basis for the estimate. We don’t know infection rates, so we don’t know cases. It has been obvious for a long time that we need a randomized large scale study with testing for both infection and antibodies. Wouldn’t cost that much and could be done quickly. These studies are just now being started. That will tell us a lot, give us a better estimate of how many mild and asymptomatic cases there may have been. If, as most people suspect, the number of infections (cases) is multiples of positive test results, you can see that the case fatality rate immediately drops by the inverse of that multiple. So if you think the CFR is 2.5% today, based on positive test results, but the multiple is ten, all of sudden your CFR is .25%. This is exactly what happens to CFR calculations in every epidemic, because the sickest people always present first and there is not widespread population testing. Until you have some basis for a good CFR number, you are better off just using raw deaths. I mean, if only 50 people in the country died, you would be a lot less concerned than 10,000 have. So the raw number is pretty informative on how serious a problem you have.
The IHME model represents the best case scenario involving social distancing and good public health
measures.
Odd how that “best case scenario” continues to change case.
Of course it changes because people’s behaviour changes. The model updates
with the actual numbers and then predicts what will happen.
Of course it changes because people’s behaviour changes.
In my neck of the woods, people’s behavior hasn’t changed in over a month. We’ve been shut down. It’s a good assumption that the same is true for the majority of jurisdictions in the US. If I understand you correctly, your argument seems to be that behavior alone is the mitigating factor in the model’s predictive output. But if that’s true then how could this also be true:
The model updates with the actual numbers and then predicts what will happen.
Given most people’s behavior hasn’t changed in some time, but the model’s numbers appear to change from week to week, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy in predictive output?
Izaak
William Ward brought the following interview to my attention. You (and others) might find it interesting.
Hi Clyde,
Professor Wittkowski appears to have his own take on COVID-19 which is not one that is shared
by most health experts. I am nowhere near knowledgable enough to make any judgement about
who might be true. My only comment would be that the approach he seems to advocating (leaving
the schools open, let the health get immunity) was the original strategy adopted by the UK
which they quickly changed when they realised the scale of the crisis. And now the death rate in
the UK is over 10% and it is on track to have the worse outcomes of any country in Europe. So
unless I am not understanding the strategy it would appear to have been tried and it failed.
Isaak
Nor am I in a position to decide who is right. I don’t have the background and experience he has. Although, I have asked a number of questions about the global response because something doesn’t smell right.
However, inasmuch as Professor Wittkowski is obviously in the high-risk category, I have to give him points for having the courage of his convictions for his recommendations.
====>Is there a DOCTOR in the House?…Regarding the Chi-Com Kung Fluey Manchuey Chop Fluey Baloney Bio-Warfare Attack <====
It just occurred to me that, like every other Vietnam war veteran, I spent a YEAR taking the anti-malaria medication QUININE, over a year, actually, as we were phased off of it so as not to have some kind of withdrawal or something.
Is it possible that taking QUININE has provided some level of immunity to this dreaded PANIC-DEMIC, or is it DEM-PANIC, Chi-Com biological weapon attack on the world? Nationally Enquiring minds want to know. If so, you could be a hero by writing an Op-Ed to the world and get a Pulitzer Prize, too
“Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period.”
But deferring new cases into the future buys time for the production and distribution of protective supplies and drugs to ramp up. Drugs include hydroxychloroquine, remesivir, ivermectin, and antivirals. Some of the have protective features that will lower the total number of new cases, or spread them out at low cost far down the road. All will reduce the severity of cases and the death count.
It’s all very cute to say 1,800 deaths in Calif., and to show the health system isn’t stressed. It’s somewhat disingenusus to then not include New York in your examples (13,307 predicted deaths; 5, 173 ICU bed shortfall and 9,617 hospital bed shortfall). New Jersey is the same (5,277, 2,10 and 5,520 respectively).
So a one size fits all health care response is appropriate for all 50 states. That does not make sense to me.
The NY metro area is the epicenter of WuFlu in the US because of the criminally insane policies of its Social Democrat regime. Louisiana, ditto.
Why should everywhere in US and our national economy suffer because of these raving lunatic whacko nut cases?
I’m sorry for all the families in Democrat misgoverned jurisdictions who have lost loved ones, sacrificed on the pagan altars of the PC religion. But please spare the rational rest of the country the scourge of such (at best) misguided idiocy.
–Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. —
Yes does not reduce cases, roughly speaking.
Though perhaps a joke, but “just a delaying tactic” is what life is.
I could spend a lot time on significant of flattening the curve.
But flattening the curve is what one does with any virus, and particularly a new virus.
And the total cost of flattening the curve is a more significant thing.
But I am not going spend time talking about total cost, either.
But one thing about cost is vacation time. And one discuss the political matter of
having more vacation time.
–So if you want to slow an infection, closing the schools at least makes logical sense.–
What is important about “schools” is what you talking about really, is day schools.
And these day schools are said or do act as day care.
So you have a political problem with day care- parents are working and need the day care.
If you had boarding schools, it’s a different “problem”- in terms spread of virus and the political problem.
And also “political problems” are part of total costs.
Considering we shut down travel and hotels, if not for “political problems”, the day care students could returned “home” to hotels. Or have camping adventures in stadiums or wherever.
What you got is a day care problem. And having parent not work is one solution {a crude/dull solution} to day care.
“Overall? I see little evidence that the various measures adopted by the western nations have had much effect.
And with the exception of closing schools, I would not expect them to do so given the laxness of the lockdown and the vague nature of “essential business”. I’ve mentioned before, here in Sonoma Country California, the local cannabis retailer is considered an essential business … strange but absolutely true.”
Well the cheapest and best thing done was shutting down air travel to China, and later {since Eureapean failed to do this, worst than US failing to do this} shutting down air travel to Europe to US.
And WHO was utterly AWOL, in this regard, and why we are in the mess we are in.
Good points!
I never realized, that driving at a non-insane person rate of speed on the highway is just a delaying tactic!
It’s comin’ for us man…dead center, right down the tracks it is coming and there is not a damn thing anyone can do about it…except run down them tracks t’other way…real fast-like.
At best WHO was AWOL. At worst, it was a Fifth Column. Time will tell how much of either it really was. But as constituted, WHO is not to be believed.
The analysis of the model curve shapes is wrong, especially because conclusions have been drawn after normalisation of the area under the line.
Firstly to put some context into the IHME models. They are only modelling the first phase of the epidemic, from the outbreak to the point where there are no cases left. In this first phase, only a limited number of people catch the disease, and no significant herd immunity has developed, so the the whole thing can kick off again if someone infected arrives from elsewhere, or we missed someone exiting from the measures. The purpose of the containment measures is to 1) ensure critical care ICU capabilities (beds, staff, ventilators) are not exceeded and 2) buy time to build up the medical resources and 3) protect those that are vulnerable (over 70s plus those with certain conditions irrespective of age) 4) buy time to investigate treatments and ultimately to develop a vaccine.
Now, on to the model. Think about just one US state, instead of two. Assume we do not have too many cases right now, but can see what is coming. We run two models with the same starting conditions. In both, we take measures which reduce the underlying R (number of infections caused directly in others by a single infected patient). An R above 1 means the numbers of infections and deaths in the epidemic are still increasing. Below 1 means the numbers are reducing, eventually to zero. Infections drive the epidemic, and deaths follow 2 to 3 weeks afterwards, as it takes something like 20 days after infection – the longer you are on a ventilator, the less chance you have.
In one model we assume a stay at home order, close schools and college, and close essential services. Let’s assume these actions would reduce R to 1/3. In the other model we do not close essential services, but do take the other actions, R now increases to 2/3, but still below one.
Because no action has been taken to protect members of the same household from each other, infections per day will continue to rise for a week or two after the measures are put in place.
However, after that, in the first case, with R=1/3, the infections curve starts decelerating quite quickly, and once it peaks, it comes down quickly too. The deaths curve follows 2 to 3 weeks later. Because Willis is normalising the death curves to have the same area, it will look like West Virginia – narrow with a high peak.
In the second model with R=2/3, it takes more time to “flatten the curve”. More people are infected because R is higher, and it takes more time to reach the peak of deaths, as these follow 2-3 weeks after infections. Further, the peak of deaths is higher, and the total number of deaths is higher. But because we now normalise the curve, it looks flatter and more spread out.
The number of people dying is very different. In the first case, R=1/3, the epidemic is nipped in the bud more quickly, so fewer people die. On the date of the peak for the first case the number of people dying in the second case, R=2/3 is higher, and we still haven’t reached the second case peak. Without doing any very complicated (because of the delays) maths, perhaps more than four times as many people will die in case 2, R=2/3, without shutting down essential services – the later peak deaths per day will be more than twice as high, and the number of days at each level maybe is approximately doubled.
The number of deaths before each peak can still roughly equal the number of deaths after each peak for each individual case, but we still have four times as many deaths from the second case with R=2/3. We haven’t just moved deaths backwards or forwards within this period, we have actually seen more people die in the second case with R=2/3.
But when you normalise both death curves it looks as if the first case with R=1/3 is worse, when it isn’t. It is much better.
When we have reduced the number of infections to zero with these measures, there is no immunity in most of the population, and no herd immunity. The number of actual cases is probably a lot higher than the figures for positive tests, maybe by a factor of 2 to 4 (for asymptomatic infections and low level infections not tested). We are taking measures to minimise the number of deaths in this phase in the hope there will be more ICU facilities, maybe a successful treatment from a doubled blind trial, and maybe a vaccine by the end of the year.
Once the infections gets to zero and the measures are relaxed some people now have immunity, including a lot of medical staff. There will be more tests, with a better accuracy, including an antibody test to tell someone they have had it and developed immunity, so are safe from either catching COVID-19 again or infecting someone else. This helps in planning measures for the next round, in which the elderly and those with existing conditions still need to be protected.
Deaths would only be deferred rather than avoided if most people (60-80%) are going to catch COVID-19 anyway. But this is not the plan.
China is starting to open up Wuhan again, though it took immediate action to close one district which had a case. All entrants to the country automatically go into a 14 day quarantine. We will have to see how well this works.
Peter:
Good insight; you may be the only other person on the site to recognize that flattening the curve can save lives even without any change in the quality of medical care. But I disagree with the following statement:
We need to take “inertia” into account.
Suppose a single infection is introduced into a large, perfectly mixed population so practicing social distancing that with zero immunity a single infected person would on average directly infect only 1.5 others: R0=1.5. Since R initially exceeds unity, the disease will spread despite the distancing, and, with no change in behavior, the resultant epidemic would not die out until 58% of the population had been infected and thereby become immune.
This is true even though increasing immunity would already have reduced R to below unity when the immunity exceeded 33-1/3 %. The epidemic would blow through that level because a large number of people are infected at the time R falls below unity, so there’s some “inertia”: the epidemic continues while their infection chains die out.
Now suppose that when the epidemic has thus subsided the population so relaxes its behavior that if immunity were zero a single person would directly infect four others: R0 =4. If a single person gets infected now, the disease will spread despite the acquired immunity, because R=(1-0.58)x4=1.68 exceeds unity. And, “inertia” being what it is, this second wave won’t die out in the absence of a behavior change until immunity reaches 87%.
That’s greater than the 75% value at which R falls below unity, but it’s less than the 98% that “inertia” would have caused if the contagion had been introduced into a zero-immunity population whose behavior was at the R0=4 level initially and no behavior change had occurred.
If you take “inertia” into account, that is, social distancing or other measures can prevent some deaths rather than merely delay them even if the majority of the population eventually gets the disease and even if the quality of medical care doesn’t change.
re: ” you may be the only other person on the site to recognize that flattening the curve can save lives even without any change in the quality of medical care.”
Anybody familiar with ‘process flow’ would have to agree, as I do, but w/o having said so until now; an “orderly flow” of product in the manufacturing process, w/o bottlenecks, w/o product backing-up (choking) at any particular process station makes maximum use of process equipment (and in a timely manner) and doesn’t require the step-in of additional personnel (and/or equipment) to relieve, to ‘solve’ the problem. In a medical, patient-treatment environ I can’t help but think that this (the orderly handling of patients in ‘work flow’) saves lives.
Are New York hospitals overrun? I read they are not, and admissions have been stable for the past 14 days. If this isn’t true I’d be grateful to know.
Will
Initial model projections for the state of Ohio were that we would run out of resources. As of today, during the governor’s daily addresses, the thinking is now that we won’t even come close to saturating the capacity of individual hospitals, and if we do, there are plans to utilize other hospitals that have capacity. So, at least in the state of Ohio, the worst-case-scenario looks very improbable and those excess deaths will not occur.
Re: “Are there enough beds and ventilators?”
It’s not the total number of hospital beds you need to consider, it’s the number isolation unit beds.
Sorry, I don’t know that number. I googled, but didn’t find it.
From this paper about High-Level Isolation Units, it sounds like the number is probably small, but perhaps they don’t need to employ HLIUs for COVID-19.
Re: “Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period. Valuable indeed, critical at times, but keep in mind that these delaying interventions do not reduce the reach of the infection. Unless your health system is so overloaded that people are needlessly dying, the final numbers stay the same.”
You alluded to the fact that an overloaded healthcare system can increase the fatality rate. But it’s not binary. It is not the case that if the number of COVID-19 cases goes from 30% of the number of available isolation unit beds to 90% of the number of isolation unit beds that the fatality rate won’t increase. As the load on the healthcare system increases, local overloads occur with increasing frequency. Available isolation unit beds in Sheboygan, WI won’t help patients in New York City.
The fatality rate is highly dependent on how severely stressed the healthcare system is, by the number of cases. Right now, less than 1/3 of 1% of the US population is infected, and most of them aren’t hospitalized. So far, U.S. hospitals are not having to triage or deny care to those most at risk. If the infection rate rises dramatically, as it has in parts of Europe, the US fatality rate will be much higher, even if many hospitals still have unoccupied isolation unit beds.
Moreover, there are many parallel, intensive efforts to find effective treatments and vaccines for this disease. Delaying the exposure of someone from before the success of those efforts until after the success of those efforts will obviously improve that person’s chances of survival.
Development of a vaccine would enable the achievement of effective herd immunity without most of the country getting sick.
However, the ability to quickly and inexpensively test for the disease potentially changes the epidemiological dynamics, completely. We no longer need to rely on herd immunity to stop the spread of airborne diseases. If we can simply test the population, and identify most of the carriers of the disease, we can quarantine them, drive the infection rate below 1.0, and end the spread of the disease.
Of course, that means we need vastly increased testing capacity. But that’s doable.
It will be relatively cheap, too. The current medicare reimbursement price of a COVID-19 test is $36-$51. Even if tests cost more than that, testing everyone would be relatively cheap. If tests cost $66 each, then we could test everyone in the entire United States ten times each, for just 1/10 of the cost of the $2.2 Trillion coronavirus bailout/stimulus package.
There might be as many as one million unidentified carriers of the disease in the United States, currently. If we could test everyone, right now, then even if each test were only 70% accurate (meaning that 30% of the positives are missed), testing everyone in America ten times could be expected to reduce the number of unidentified carriers from 1 million to about 6. The use of contact-tracing to better target the tests could easily improve that to less than 1, and the use of testing at ports of entry could prevent recurrent outbreaks.
In the US, about 8,ooo people die every day on average over the course of a year. Today, it’s reported that there were 2,000 Covid 19 deaths. So is that in addition to the 8k avg., or would some of the 2k CV 19 reported deaths have died anyway???
re: “In the US, about 8,ooo people die every day on average over the course of a year. Today, it’s reported that there were 2,000 Covid 19 deaths. So is that in addition to the 8k avg., or would some of the 2k CV 19 reported deaths have died anyway???”
Embrace the term, the concept of “front loading” (of deaths for the year). The weak and infirm were ‘taken out’ early this year …
.
.
front-load: distribute or allocate (costs, effort, etc.) unevenly, with the greater proportion at the beginning of the enterprise or process.
Scott Adams does pretty good job explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnT6gXBrPds
I am still listening to rest of it {or you should get your answer in first 5 mins or so- I have not searched for graph he refers to, yet}
re:
Scott Adams does pretty good job explaining it:
I am still listening to rest of it {or you should get your answer in first 5 mins or so- I have not searched for graph he refers to, yet} ”
MAYBE this graph explains it:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUyBMdvWAAEZAwX?format=jpg
(Courtesy poster icisil.)
oh, that seems about right. But not sure it’s same as Scott’s thing which was suppose to be “better” at easily seeing it- Or better graphic display so people can see it easily.
I have a bit problem with the weeks way counting things, but roughly it seems to confirms the US “shutdown” was needed.
Though starting from now, have my doubts about how effective the measures we going take, or are going to be- I think we should end the “shutdown” quicker than what is publicly been said about it.
And the biggest “insurance policy” to reduce possible potential deaths, to find out what our current “herd immunity” is at.
Or we need random tests of US population of antibodies, and I start and focus on New York city- where I am guessing has highest percentage of herd immunity of US.
But maybe California is pretty close to New York State.
Weeks ago: Mar 17, 2020 :
https://www.postbulletin.com/life/health/mayo-clinic-working-on-antibody-test/article_31df2fb8-68ad-11ea-b5cd-e305c4d9bd7e.html
“This makes the news all the more meaningful that Mayo Clinic has announced it is just weeks away from delivering an antibody test for coronavirus. Only Singapore has developed such a test, and it has yet to be validated.”
So, instead search of ” random tests of US population of antibodies”
I should search “random tests of Singapore of antibodies”
and if done yet and results- I suspect Singapore has herd immunity which on the low side, or New York city has been and will be a higher herd immunity.
But need both tests mentioned in above link, ” PCR tests”
and “serology test” and good {and a lot} random surveys
John Brodman asked, “In the US, about 8,ooo people die every day on average over the course of a year. Today, it’s reported that there were 2,000 Covid 19 deaths. So is that in addition to the 8k avg., or would some of the 2k CV 19 reported deaths have died anyway???”
If 1/3 of 1% of the American population is infected with COVID-19 right now (a reasonable guess), then you would expected that (very roughly) 1/3 of 1% of those people who die today of other causes are coincidentally infected with COVID-19. 1/3 of 1% of 2000 is about seven.
So the answer is, yes, some of the 2K CV-19 deaths would have died today anyway, but very few. Not enough to appreciably affect the statistics.
Now, if you ask a different question, like “how many of the 2K CV-19 deaths would have died of something else within a few years?” it’s a higher number, because we know that this disease tends to pick off the old, weak & sickly. But that doesn’t mean those 2K people weren’t killed by CV-19. Even when CV-19 is just “the straw that breaks the camel’s back,” and kills a very elderly, sickly patient, it’s still a CV-19 death. The straw is not exonerated from killing the camel simply because other loads made the camel’s back vulnerable to breaking.
If anyone reading this thinks that attribution is unfair to CV-19, that it should not be blamed for such deaths, then think of the other deaths caused by CV-19, for which it is not blamed. For example, when hospital staff is stretched thin because of burden of caring for CV-19 patients, other patients get worse care, and some of them will die as a result, who would have lived but for the CV-19 epidemic.
Oops, parity error between the ears.
On an average day, when there’s no epidemic, 7000-8000 Americans die of all causes, not 2000. If 1/2 of 1% of the American population is infected with COVID-19 right now (a reasonable estimate), then you would expect that (very roughly) 1/2 of 1% of the people who die today of other causes are coincidentally also infected with COVID-19. Some of those cases could be mistaken for COVID-19 deaths.
1/2 of 1% of 7500 is about 37, but that includes deaths by automobile accident, suicide, murder, fire, drowning, heart attack, stroke, etc., none of which would be attributed to COVID-19. But even if those deaths were all blamed on COVID-19, it would still inflate the COVID-19 death toll by less than 2%.
What’s more, the COVID-19 epidemic is adversely affecting medical treatment for other problems, and doubtless causing deaths even among people who never contract the disease. My regular MD and dentist have both closed their offices except for emergencies. That cannot be good, in the long term, for the health of their patients.
So the answer is, yes, a very few of today’s approx. 2000 CV-19 deaths in the United States might have been people who would have died anyhow, but not enough to appreciably affect the statistics.