Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been following the many changes in the IHME coronavirus model used by our very own most incompetent Dr. Fauci. (In passing, let me note that he’s been wrong about most everything from the start—from first saying it was not a problem, to predicting 200,000 deaths in the US (based on an earlier version of this model), to advising people to NOT wear masks, to opposing chloroquine. But I digress …)
The IHME model is here, and it’s well worth a look, although not worth too much trust—it’s been wrong too many times. To their credit they’ve put the results online here.
Another problem with it is that the presentation of the data is so good. It’s good enough that it’s hard not to take it as fact.
The model historically has predicted numbers that were too high. The latest incarnation of the model is predicting 81,766 COVID-19 deaths in the US by August 4, 2020. That’s down from 93,000 in the previous incarnation of the model. Are they finally right? History makes one cautious. There’s a discussion of the upgrade of the model here.
However, despite their past high estimates in absolute numbers, I figured that their estimates of the shapes of the responses is likely pretty close to realistic. So I thought I’d take a look at the projected daily deaths, to see what I could learn. In particular, I wanted to investigate this idea of “flattening the curve”.
What does “flattening the curve” mean? It is based on the hope that our interventions will slow the progress of the disease. By doing so, we won’t get as many deaths on any given day. And this means less strain on a city or a country’s medical system.
Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period. Valuable indeed, critical at times, but keep in mind that these delaying interventions do not reduce the reach of the infection. Unless your health system is so overloaded that people are needlessly dying, the final numbers stay the same.
Now, the model lists three kind of interventions on a state-by-state basis. The interventions are:
• Stay at home order
• Educational facilities closed
• Non-essential services closed
I figured I could take a look to see if imposing those restrictions would make a difference to how flat the curve is. Of course, to do that, I had to figure out a variable that would represent the “flatness” of the curve. After some experimentation, I settled on using the highest daily death number as a percentage of the total number of deaths. For convenience I’ve called this number the “peak factor”, and the larger it is, the more peaked the curve is.
So to start with, here are a couple of states with very different peak factors from two ends of the scale. The graph shows the shapes of the curves, but not the actual sizes, of the daily death counts in the two states.

Figure 1. The shapes of the curves of daily deaths for West Virginia and Missouri. Both have been scaled to a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1, and then aligned to zero. Both datasets slightly smoothed (Gaussian filter, FWHM = 3 days). For purposes of illustration of curve flattening, I’ve adjusted them so the total number of deaths are the same in both states.
Note that the area outside the blue line but still under the yellow line (bottom center) is equal to the amount of the peak above the yellow line. It’s the same total amount, just spread out over time.
Now, that looks like interventions are working … except for one detail. West Virginia imposed all three restrictions. Missouri only imposed two. And for those two, Missouri imposed them both later than did West Virginia.
So that pair certainly doesn’t say much for the effectiveness of our interventions. Why are they so different? Unknown, but presumably because of things including the density and distribution of the population.
So that’s what the effect of the interventions should look like. It should take a peaked curve and transform them, stretch them out over a longer time with a lower peak. And more interventions should flatten the peak even more.
Intrigued by all of this, I returned to the IHME model. One interesting discovery that I made was that for all of the states, the number of deaths before the peak is very close to the number of deaths after the peak. This was true for states with a high peak factor as well as a low peak factor, across the board. This should allow us a rough-and-ready rule of thumb to estimate the total deaths once the peak is passed.
Note that this rule of thumb is true no matter when the lockdowns are removed—all that will do is change the date of the deaths, not the total number calculated by the rule of thumb.
For example, Italy. Let me go look it up at Worldometer … OK, the peak was on March 28th, at about 10,000 deaths. That would make me think that total deaths in Italy will be on the order of 20,000 deaths.
To check that prediction, I just now looked for the first time at the IHME model country page for Italy. Until this latest update, they didn’t cover other countries, just the US. OK, the IHME model says 20,300 deaths projected for Italy. So my rule of thumb appears to work quite well. Let me test it with Spain. First, Worldometer. It says there had been 9,400 deaths by the time of the peak daily death in Spain. Rule of thumb says that the total should be on the order of 18,800 deaths. Turns out when I got there that the IHME model page for Spain says 19,200 deaths. So it seems that the rule of thumb works well, at least according to the model. Whether it works in the real world remains to be seen …
Next I looked at the peak factor for all the states versus the number of interventions, to see if the interventions tended to lower the peaks and flatten the curve. Figure 3 shows that result.

Figure 2. Scatterplot, “peak factor” showing how peaked the curve is, versus the number of interventions imposed on the populace. Red “whisker” lines show one sigma uncertainty of the median. Since there are only two states with zero intervention, no uncertainty calculation is possible.
As you can see, the total number of interventions makes no statistically significant difference in the flattening of the curve.
So I thought, well, let me look at the dates of each of the three types of interventions—stay at home, close schools, close businesses. Maybe there is relationship there. First, here are peak factors of the various states versus the timing of their “stay-at-home” order. Over time, the intervention should lead to lower peak factors, with early adopters getting greater benefit. Here’s that result.

Figure 3. Scatterplot, peak factors of the states versus the date on which they imposed the “stay-at-home” order. The yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. The trend is not statistically significant.
What that says is the opposite of what we’d expect—in this case, the later the intervention happened, the flatter the curve. Should be the other way around, earlier interventions should lead to more effect on the outcome.
Next I looked at the closing of non-essential services. Here’s that result.

Figure 4. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all inessential services. Again, the yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. This time the trend is statistically significant (p-value = .028)
However, despite the statistical significance of the trend line, it’s going the wrong way. The early adopters should be less peaked by now, not more peaked. Finally, here is the school closure data.

Figure 5. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
It’s sloped the wrong way again, but I saw that graph and I thought “Hang on … that one data point is influencing all the rest”. So removed that point, which happened to be Iowa, and took another look.

Figure 6. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
At least this one is going slightly the right way, although the trend is still not significant. That lack of a clear result may be a result of the bluntness of the instrument and the small size of the data sample.
Despite the lack of significance, I suspect that of all of the actions taken in the Western world to slow the spread of this illness, closing the schools could be the only one to have an actual measurable effect. Don’t get me wrong, any intervention has some effect however small. But I mean a real significant effect.
I say closing schools could have this effect because schools, particularly grade schools, could have been designed to be a very effective way to spread an infection. Consider. You not only have the kids packed in close together indoors for five days out of the week. Worse, it’s the same kids every day, so they have multiple chances to infect each other. Worse yet, they all go back home at the end of the day to infect the rest of the family, or to bring in new fun illnesses for “show-and-tell-time” at school to start the process over.
And finally, as all kids do, they wrestle and kick and cough and grab each other and sneeze and spit on the ground and trade clothing and eat bits of each others’ lunches … it’s a perfect petri dish.
So if you want to slow an infection, closing the schools at least makes logical sense.
On the other hand, stay-at-home orders where people still go out for groceries as well as to either work in “essential” jobs or purchase other essentials (and non-), that seems like a joke to me. The virus is sneaky. The Fed-Ex driver just dropped off a couple of packages here … there are still loads of people out and about. It’s all around. It can live on surfaces. It is transported by coughing, sneezing, or even talking. Yes, if you do a full-on surveillance state detecting, tracking, and contact tracing like South Korea has done, that will work. But you need to give your phone GPS data to the government to make that work. There’s no way Americans, or most westerners in general, would do that.
The western style style of quarantine leaks virus like a “closed” Senate hearing leaks classified information, and then the virus is transported everywhere. There’s really no attempt being made to track contacts. I suspect it would be futile at this point.
Overall? I see little evidence that the various measures adopted by the western nations have had much effect. And with the exception of closing schools, I would not expect them to do so given the laxness of the lockdown and the vague nature of “essential business”. I’ve mentioned before, here in Sonoma Country California, the local cannabis retailer is considered an essential business … strange but absolutely true.
Finally, I want to talk about that most mundane of things, the humble cost/benefit analysis. Draw a vertical line down a sheet of paper, label one side “Costs” and the other “Benefits”. Write them down on the appropriate side, add them up. We’ve all done some variation of that, even if just mentally.
Unfortunately, it seems Dr. Fauci doesn’t do cost/benefit analyses. It seems he only looks at or cares about the benefits. He called millions of people being thrown out of work “unfortunate” … unfortunate? It is a huge cost that he doesn’t want to think about. He’s not going to lose his job. His friends won’t lose their jobs. Meanwhile, at the same time that he’s saying “unfortunate”, the mental health hotlines and the suicide hotlines are ringing off the wall. People are going off the rails. Domestic violence calls are through the roof, and understandably. Forcibly take the jobs away from a wife and a husband, tell them that they are under house arrest, that’s stress enough … and meanwhile there’s no money coming in, rent and electricity bills are piling up, can’t put gas in the car, kids bouncing off the walls from being cooped up … of course domestic violence and suicides and mental health problems are off the charts.
Which brings me to California where I live. If California were a country it would have the fifth-largest economy in the world. Fifth. Just California. The annual GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the total value of everything we produce) of California in round numbers is three trillion per year. We have no hard figures, but it would not surprise me if 2020 was only seventy percent of normal, not from the virus, but from the government pulling the wheels off of the economy. That’s a loss of Nine. Hundred. Billion. Dollars. That’s bigger than the GDP of most countries, up in smoke.
And that’s not counting the cost of partially offseting the governmental destruction. First, the government pulled the wheels off of the economy. And now, they’re pumping out taxpayers’ dollars like water to try to ease the pain that they’ve just inflicted. That $1,200 check people are talking about? That a cost, not a benefit as the chatterati would have us believe. It comes out of our pockets. And there are all kinds of other associated expenses, lost wages, the list goes on and on.
So overall, here in California alone we’ve lost pushing a trillion dollars of value, with millions out of work, tens of thousands of businesses shuttered forever, discord and dismay abounding … and for what? For what?
Well, it’s for the following. Here is the IHME model projection for coronavirus deaths in the fifth largest economy in the world …

Figure 7. Projected coronavirus deaths, California.
That’s it? That’s all? Eighteen hundred dead? That’s less than California murders. It’s less than California gun deaths. It’s a third of our drug overdose deaths, for heaven’s sake, and guess what?
The trillion dollars we lost from the government shutting down the California economy?
It won’t save one of those 1,783 people. Not one.
It will just delay their deaths by a week or two.
A trillion in losses are on the cost side of the cost/benefit analysis. And on the benefits side, all we have is a two-week delay in eighteen hundred unavoidable deaths? That’s it? That’s all that a trillion dollars buys you these days?
Ah, you say, but more people might die if the medical system is overwhelmed. Are there enough beds and ventilators?
Well, glad you asked. Here are the figures, again from the IHME model. Unfortunately, as with the number of deaths, all the previous incarnations of the model have overestimated the need for hospital resources … but with that caveat, here are their California numbers.

No bed shortage. No ICU bed shortage. And we just shipped some ventilators to New York. We should peak in a week.
And while we’re waiting for the peak, we’ve just spent about a trillion dollars to delay 1,783 deaths by a few weeks. Not to save anyone’s life, I say again. Just to delay a couple thousand deaths by a couple weeks … look, it still wouldn’t be worth a trillion dollars even if we could actually save that many lives and not just delay their deaths. If it helps your conscience you could give the family of each person who could have been saved a million dollars, that’s only 0.2% of your trillion dollars, and the economy could keep humming along.
But it’s simply not worth totally wrecking the lives of 30 million Californians just to save eighteen hundred lives. That’s madness, that’s a terrible deal.
I have opposed this from the start. I don’t do a one-sided “benefits” analysis like Dr. Fauci does. I do a COST/benefit analysis, and we’ve just looked at it. Here’s the conclusion of that analysis:
Even if your hospital system is going to get overloaded, even if more people are going to die, put the trillion dollars into making the medical system the strongest and most resilient imaginable. Spend it on field hospitals and stocks of disposables, buy ventilators, buy hospitals, buy medical schools, buy beds and gowns, that’s what will save lives. I don’t care, shut down the grade schools if you have to although with a solid medical system you likely won’t have to … but whatever you do …
DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY, STUPID!! The costs are far, far too great.
Just the human costs are beyond measure. Lives ripped apart, suicides, endless worry and concern, running out of money to feed the kids, there’s no end to it, lying in bed at night wondering when they’ll let you out of jail.
And that’s all before we even get to the economic costs and the ripple-effect costs and the loss of productive capacity and the canceled contracts and the lawyers’ fees and finally, the start-up capital required, and the businesses that will have gone elsewhere, and the need to rehire or replace people and overhaul idled machinery, etc. etc. once this monumental stupidity is over.
So this is a plea for all you women and men at the top, the ones deciding when to call off the madness, I implore you—get up out of your offices, look around you, go to a small town and talk to some unemployed businesswoman whose local enterprise is now belly-up, understand what the loss of that business means to that small town, and GET AMERICA WORKING AGAIN TODAY! Not tomorrow. Today. Every day is endless pain and worry for far too many.
Here’s how crazy this lockdown is. You folks who decide on this for California? You are costing us trillions of dollars, and you are literally killing people through increased suicide and depression and domestic violence, and it’s all in the name of delaying a couple of thousand deaths. Not preventing the deaths, you understand. Delaying the deaths.
Killing people to delay death, that sounds like a charmingly Aztec plan, it comes complete with real human sacrifices …
Sheesh … it’s not rocket science. Further delay at this point won’t help. End the American lockdown today, leave the schools closed, let’s get back to business.
And yes, of course I’d include all the usual actions and recommendations in addition to leaving the schools closed—the at-risk population, who are those with underlying conditions, particularly the elderly, should avoid crowds. And of course continue to follow the usual precautions—wash your hands; wear a mask at normal functions and not, as in your past, just at bank robberies; only skype or facetime with pangolins, no hootchie cootchie IRL; refrain from touching your face; sanitize hard surfaces; y’all know the drill by now … the reality is we’ll all be exposed to to coronavirus sooner or later. And like the Spanish Flu and Hong Kong Flu and a host of diseases before and after them, after a couple of years the once-novel coronavirus will no longer be novel. It will simply become part of the background of diseases inhabiting our world like the Swine flu and the Bird Flu, all dressed disreputably and hanging out on every street corner in every town waiting for someone to mug …
My regards to all, and my profound thanks to the medical troops who are on the front lines of this war. The wave is about to break in the US, dawn is approaching, it will be over in a month. And hopefully, long before then. these insane regulations will go into the trash, we can stop paying trillions to delay a few deaths a few weeks, and we can get America up and working again.
w.
A REQUEST: If you know someone who makes the decisions on one of the lockdowns, or if you know somebody who knows one or more of the women and men making that decision, please send them a link to this document and ask them to read it and pass it up the chain so that we can all get back to work sooner rather than later.
To facilitate this, I’ve put a copy of this post for anyone to download as a Word document here, and as a downloadable PDF document here. Send a copy to someone who might make a difference.
MY USUAL REQUEST: When you comment, please quote the exact words that you are referring to. Only in that way can we be clear about what you are discussing.
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A great start, Willis. I like your approach of trying to fingerprint the effects of particular policies. You in the US have a great advantage over us Europeans; you have 50 laboratories trying different cures! Here, we have only 12 or so, with the French (at least) having screwed up their data. And if the EU had its way, we’d have only one…
In Europe, things are looking up with regard to new cases. (Though not in the UK, yet). Unclear (to me at least) whether it’s the result of lockdowns, or of herd immunity starting to kick in. The latter would require that the virus has been around a lot longer than anyone has told us. We shall see.
At what point would you expect herd immunity to “start” to kick in?
I’ve seen 60-70% figures suggested as needed to it stop the virus, not for it to “kick in”.
Herd immunity maybe starting to have an effect as is the attrition of the supply of vulnerable octogenarians in poor quality care homes and those on ACE inhibitors.
What we have seen in Europe seems like the normal progression of any epidemic. I can not see the slightest effect of confinement. If it helped it is not slapping us in the face ( unlike the costs of doing it ).
‘And if the EU had its way, we’d have only one…’
You are gone from the EU, Neil, but yet still continue complaining about it! You can have all the curved bananas and laboratories you want now – but the tooth fairy ain’t going to pay for them….
One would wonder that the societal permeation factor would be associated with one infection transfer. How exponential would that be over a 1 week period in an uncontrolled environment. Let’s say with an R0 of 3 per day as an example. I get the possibility of 2,187 infections in one week generated from such. Just pretending to be a model 🙂
Very interesting discussion Willis. You do a great service by introducing aspects of the response that need attention. I am a practicing infectious disease physician and have similar concerns but would not state some of the conclusions as forcefully, as much is still not known. I agree the decisions about how to respond should rightly be cost-benefit. They appear however to be CYA decisions (i.e. cover your ass by doing anything possible to reduce infections) – all “benefit” no cost. That is they are focused on one benefit that is of primary interest to decision-makers who will later crow loudly about how they saved everyone. This is contrary to the medical dictum of “first do no harm”. Even if cost benefit is calculated purely on lives lost or saved the idea that the precautions taken don’t cause loss of life is negated repeatedly by many examples such as increased violence, increased suicides, and decreased access to appropriate care for other serious conditions.
The one conclusion I am more uncertain of is that flattening the curve is just delaying but not preventing cases. It may well be true, but there is at least theoretical potential for measures to actually reduce the long term burden of infections if effective. That is the issue at the center of this discussion. Are the measures actually reducing the number of people who will ultimately get infected – we don’t know, but we should get a much better idea towards the end of this outbreak by doing comparisons similar to those undertaken by Willis.
Delaying deaths is a much more reasonable goal than preventing them since immortality is not an option. That is to say the death rate is always 100% if you do long enough follow-up. While the elderly and chronically ill are much more at risk of dying from or with CoVID, they were at more immediate risk of death even without CoVID. We will need more refined analysis to determine how much COVID contributed to an increased rate of early death. Seasonal increased mortality such as is tracked yearly during the flu season may give a better indication.
If, as Willis suggests, the measures we are taking are in error and have much higher costs than benefits, then faulty modeling based on incorrect assumptions is likely a major contributor to that outcome. Sounds a lot like global warming to me all over again.
With respect to the negative correlation of measures taken versus steepness of the curve there is an alternate possible explanation. Those jurisdictions starting off with the steepest case increase may be more persuaded to adopt coercive measures because of the steepness – i.e. the causation is reverse of what was theorized. One day we will have a much better understanding but it is critical that these contrary discussion points get a hearing and that honest analysis take place so that any mistakes made today need not be repeated in future.
I was thinking something very similar…the places that took steps first were the places that were getting impacted harder at the outset. IOW…people were reacting to what was being seen, not what they thought might be coming.
If in the meantime, while delaying new kwowledge about treatment (no ventilators f.e.) surges, than you saved live by winning time!
Andy’s excellent comments made me think. We need a metric that, estimated by a doctor, for each person whose death was claimed to be caused by COVID19 would have lived if the person had not been infected.
Correction:
I meant to ask how much longer they would have lived if they had not been infected.
Yes that is exactly the point. A better metric for “cause of death” is attributable years of life lost. That is the amount of life lost due to a particular contributor. For CoVID it would be how much longer and individual would have lived on average had they not contracted CoVID. A few hours doesn’t count for much, a few days?, but many months to years would be more impactful.
re: “Delaying deaths is a much more reasonable goal than preventing them since immortality is not an option.”
AS I wrote on FreeRepublic on this subject, the number of deaths has been “front loaded” for this year due to the deaths of the ‘weak and infirm’ to date, and the stats for the rest of the year should reflect this.
“The one conclusion I am more uncertain of is that flattening the curve is just delaying but not preventing cases.”
I think that is a valid question. I do know that flattening the curve was sold as having the same area under each curve but the flattened curve spread it out. That is the same number of infections are presumed in either curve while the flattened one reduced the stress on the medical system. So I’m not going to fault Willis for arguing based on the model assumptions sold to us.
1. It’s not feasible to spend a trillion dollars beefing up the healthcare system in just one month.
2. In Wuhan and in Italy the hospitals did get overloaded and the mortality rate increased. London has got very close to that point, and so has New York.
I am completely mystified as to how locking up people in small houses for weeks, passing the virus from one person to another is a good idea. I am also baffled as to why the enormous repercussions in terms of people’s physical, mental and financial health seem to be ignored, not forgetting the impact on personal relations. Or on our freedoms.
Panic of the first order. The madness of crowds forcing the politicans to do ‘something’ whether or not that ‘something’ is at all logical.
In most nursing homes, residents are being forced to stay in their rooms. They can’t leave even to go outside for a little fresh air and sunshine. They can’t see family, friends or enjoy any outside pleasures. The resulting grief will kill some.
The problem is that all your analysis uses absolute date… but those states that were hardest hit will have the earliest intervention dates, which completely messes up your ability to tell if interventions work. Preferably, you would use “intervention date RELATIVE to the date at which deaths exceeded X” (where X might be 5/million inhabitants, or something like that).
I also think it is fairly evident that if New York had NOT shut things down hard, they’d be hiring refrigerated trucks just for the excess dead… oh, wait, they already are. It would have been EVEN WORSE THAN THAT.
And all of these curves assume continued actions to halt spread. If we hadn’t locked down at all, California wouldn’t have peaked earlier but had the same number of deaths… instead, that curve would have skyrocketed up, and kept on going. If we assume a 0.5% mortality rate, we’d be looking at 150,000 deaths for California, not 1800. (likely the mortality rate would be much higher since hospitals would be overwhelmed, but probably some percentage of the population wouldn’t get infected even under no-lockdown, so I’m assuming those cancel out).
-Marc
Check out the numbers for New York to see an example of a shortage of beds and ventilators. Then throw in the concerns that ventilators may not be the best solution: https://blogs.webmd.com/public-health/20200407/coronavirus-in-context-do-covid-19-vent-protocols-need-a-second-look and we are floundering for answers.
I have been thinking that I have not heard any politicians offer a plan to end this and I am leaning to an approach such as the one you proposed. Unfortunately, you offer a nuanced solution in a sound-bite society that views things in politicized black and white so it would be headlined as a plan to let people die.
The more I read and witness the more I believe herd immunity is the answer. More months of lock down would destroy the world’s economy to the point it would cause more deaths than the virus. The fact that overall flu deaths are below normal doesn’t seem to get traction with the scaremongers.
Hi Willis, I’m a fan of your work but I find this post lacking in your trademark critical thinking.
1) You say: “Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period.”
Is it not possible that flattening the curve could indeed reduce the total number of deaths, in that a less stressed health system may lead to better outcomes for some fraction of serious cases? If not why even put people in hospital or ICU.
2) In this post (and previous) you use count of the number of interventions as a metric, but this treats all interventions as equally effective in their design and implementation. Intervention is not a standard unit of measure so a poor choice for things like Figure 3.
3) Also related to Figure 3, you seem to be missing the possible (likely?) correlation between number of interventions deployed and prior severity and risk factors for the local situation.
4) Figures 4 (typo: labelled as 3), 5, and 6 are by calendar date so confounded by date of local onset, which appears to have varied significantly across the country. Should this not be normalized to some factor (time since: first case, first death, first 100 cases, etc) to have any comparability? For example 2 jurisdictions may have closed schools on the same calendar day but one was a late adopter having 1000+ cases already, and the other was an early adopter having no reported cases. Date of adoption relative to the progression of the local outbreak could significantly influence effectiveness of the adoption.
MJB
Figure numbers seem to have been corrected. In the above comment point 2) and 3) should refer to Figure 2, and point 4) should refer to Figures 3, 4, and 5. Thanks. MJB
At last some real common sense. Dr Knut Wittkowsky a top coronavirus epidemiologist posted this yesterday a must see totally concurs 100% with this posting and explains why flattening the curve prolongs the viral problem plus the trillions lost suicides ect Thank you. This is the link first posted by H/T to Robert yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO1fvhksSoI BTW Sweden has not lockdowned and has same incidence a low rate countries with extreme lockdowns
it still wouldn’t be worth a trillion dollars even if we could actually save that many lives
…
So at each life valued at about $0.5 Billion ($1T/1800), and with the death toll now greater than 14,000, we have lost $7 Trillion in value, and the death toll keeps rising.
And more and more people are losing their jobs, their friends and family members are losing their jobs added to the fear of losing their jobs. People won’t go to the doctors for fear of getting the virus too 🙁
I’m sorry, but no human life is worth $500,000,000 at least from an economic perspective. The range is about $130,000 (will insurance provide coverage for a new procedure?) to $9,000,000 according to the US EPA. So at $9 million a pop, CA shouldn’t be employing measures costing more than $16.2 billion. For the US, that’s $126 billion. We are so screwed.
Some will argue that putting a dollar value on a human life is immoral.
“Some people will argue putting a dollar value on human life is immoral”
RealLy so how much will you spend to “save” a life? $1, $10, $100, $1000, how about a trillion dollars? The money your are willing to spend is people’s lives, it’s their life savings from all their years of work and sacrifice. How many family businesses should we flush down the toilet? How many people that worked their whole lives scrimping and saving and fight to get ahead should we force back to square one? How much earlier will they die because they can’t enjoy the fruits of their life’s work? And how much will you spend to extend their lives?
What dollar figure do you place on a human life? Is a teenager’s life worth more than a 50-year old? Is a male worth more than a female? Is an Asian worth more than a Spainard? What is your life worth?
Henry
How much suffering of other peoples lives is OK to protect your life?
Henry, I know that you frame this in religious terms, but consider that every action (including the refusal to act) has multiple effects. Surely the decision to take an action motivated by profit should not be considered licit because the cost of deaths caused that might need to be compensated is less than the profit made. Any action that directly causes another person’s death is illicit, regardless of how lucrative. But that gets muddied if the deaths are not predictably and directly caused and everyone enjoys the benefits while everyone remains at a slight risk. For a small group to benefit while a large group only risks death is clearly immoral. But when burning fossil fuel for example, society as a whole benefits greatly and many more lives are extended than may be lost from pollution effects. In a just society we may still wish to compensate those who are negatively impacted, even though they also benefited from the positive effects. In such a case we must set a value for fair compensation. It is not the value of a life, it is a value of a compensation for a reduction in lifespan.
When we compare the harmful effects of overspending on mitigation of one problem, we can’t just look at the lives putatively saved by the mitigation. We have to look at costs and benefits of all the effects of our action. If in avoiding one death we unintentionally cause another person to die, then no cost can be justified.
Rich, can you explain in your framing of this discussing, why do we execute death row inmates, when it is less expensive to keep them incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives? This is an illicit action motivated by the opposite of profit.
Henry,
The death penalty is a question of justice and of deterrence and also not as you assert the unjust taking of innocent life. Personally, I hold as a matter of faith that human life has an intrinsic value and would prefer to see the death penalty minimized or eliminated, because in my judgment, there is not much deterrent value. On the other hand, some heinous crimes cry out for justice. Reasonable people may disagree on this, and we obviously do.
It doesn’t enter into my calculus at all as to which choice costs less. Having said that, the cost of incarceration or execution is largely a matter of policy. I am sure that China’s extensive use of the death penalty is far cheaper under their policy choices than incarceration would be. Indeed they may profit greatly from organ harvesting. If we sink to that level of indifference to the value of human life, we can certainly make slaughter pay.
Again that is not validly a question of cost, but of justice.
OK Mr. Davis, you argue that you cannot place a dollar value on a life because of “justice.” I’m arguing that you cannot place a dollar value on a life because of “morality.”
The Court system is forced to value lives in wrongful death cases all the time. Expert witnesses are called by both sides to testify to various aspects of the person’s life, the loss, pain and suffering to the widow, etc… And the jury comes to a verdict on the valuation of that life.
Whether it’s “moral” to do so or not misses the point, IMO. If it’s “immoral” to value a life, then would you take the position that when a life is lost due to wrongful death, the widow should receive no compensation because it would be immoral to calculate the compensation?
It’s not something anyone WANTS to do. But it has to be done anyway.
And as to your question, “Is a teenager’s life worth more than a 50-year old?”
It depends. Here are some of the factors used to determine it:
“Placing a monetary value on a life is incredibly difficult. There are, however several factors which may be considered to help reach a amount. These include:
The age of the deceased person
The deceased’s earning capacity
The deceased’s state of health
The deceased’s income at the time of death
The age and circumstances of the deceased’s dependents
The deceased’s education and training
Medical bills and other expenses incurred for the deceased
Funeral expenses
Value of lost benefits (e.g. pension, health insurance)
The damages amount must not be merely a ballpark estimate, but must be supported by objective evidence. Economists and other expert witnesses can look at the deceased person and their circumstances and consider the various circumstances to determine an amount.”
https://www.askadamskutner.com/wrongful-death/calculating-wrongful-death-settlements/
Point being… whether it’s “moral” or not, sometimes you’re forced to give a life a valuation. And when you do that, you have to have a metric to do so. Most metrics value lives at no more than $25 million dollars, and often a lot less than that.
Obviously never had to make healthcare funding decisions then. Bill Gates pays $15,000 pcm premium for the best available healthcare. Do you see the problem?
In a world of limited resources and infinite wants, valuation is imperative. Not doing so is immoral, as every compensation paid means funds not available to clean the water and air and render medical care to those less fortunate. At any point in time, there’s only so much cash available.
Are you implying that if my uncle was on death row in CA, I could free him for $10 million?
No, but if your uncle accidentally killed someone, it might be considered to be a just compensation to the family.
The “expected” flu (s, several varieties) for which we vaccinated and prepared, should be just as slowed from social distancing and masks as any other contagion. The US CDC measures annual effectiveness of the seasonal vaccine against each season’s flu to find vaccination is rarely much more that 50% effective. Before the Covid crunch, this season was typical, and there was a modest rise in “Influenza Like Illnesses” (ILI). Possibly some unspecified ILIs were CV-19.
Is there a data source pooling and segmenting ILIs, seasonal flu, and CV-19 incidence and fatalities, over time, such that we can see the effects of various measures? The “pool” should show all such contagions flatten. The seasonal stuff should flatten less, because the vaccine provides the herd immunity we are looking for. And the mysterious ILIs may, or may not, be or include CV-19 but if the curve — flattened or otherwise — parallels CV-19 that would be indicative. Of something.
Until we know what percentage of the population is naturally immune and what percentage simply shows no symptoms, all models are shots in the dark – that’s why graphs with uncertainty ranges bear a depressing similarity to IPCC models.
Given how little we know, whatever approach we take is playing a roulette. Of course, we will put a scientific veneer on the approach taken. In four weeks or so we may compare results from Sweden and Denmark and other countries. Then we can evaluate approaches in hindsight.
I am not blaming anybody for the lack of knowledge, but I blame officials who ban potential treatments for questionable reasons.
Excellent insight as always Willis …
The IHME Model has seen a major revision yet again … just a few days after the last one. Yesterday’s projection update:
Total Projected US Deaths:
60,415 COVID-19 deaths projected by August 4, 2020
Last week:
93,000 COVID-19 deaths projected by August 4, 2020
Last Sunday:
81,766 COVID-19 deaths projected by August 4, 2020
California projected deaths down also – now:
1,611 COVID-19 deaths projected by August 4, 2020
https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america
Scott Gates
The 30x disparity between NY known rates and CA assumed is what strikes me as odd in the IMHE. Avocado toast?
Also, Willis accepting the peak death day as being the halfway point may be off. Seems more likely that halfway will be farther along on the downslope with the tail long and fat. If NY, Spain and Italy aren’t at halfway yet then just doubling the 300 deaths per million now may be optimistic. That said, even .0008 or .001
is still quite low against other existing morbidities, which it will also lower.
“Here’s how crazy this lockdown is.” Human costs, economic costs, all too true.
It’s a war and the generals are incompetent.
“The western style style of quarantine leaks virus like a “closed” Senate hearing leaks classified information, and then the virus is transported everywhere. There’s really no attempt being made being made to track contacts.”
Incompetent and inexcusable.
To fight the virus, “we” have decided on social distancing, and “we” decided until recently that masks don’t work. Look at the photos from China yesterday as their big lockdown was ended. The photos show massive crowds, tightly packed, living outdoors and in the streets again — wearing masks. Clearly the Chinese people (as opposed to their government) think that masks are enough. They may be right. We will see.
And “we” decided that some malaria drug (and don’t forget to take zinc with it) doesn’t work and might kill somebody’, just because Trump mentioned it. Good thing Trump didn’t mention tonic water!
And “we” decided not to do aggressive contact tracing? That would be a worthwhile job creation program.
Let’s not do anything that works, let’s just do the symbolic (but damaging) stuff. /sarc
I don’t know who “we” is, but it doesn’t include me.
I fear that we are all still attempting to reason from quite bad data.
Willis, the problem with what you propose is summed up as follows….. The economy will recover from this, but the dead people won’t.
You’re assuming the lock down will make a difference and you’re assuming no one loses a life due to suicide. Sadly, economic despair and isolation have a human cost as well. Many people, young healthy people, may choose to end their lives because of the bleak future they perceive.
Planned People… Persons? Maybe, but not a given.
Hmm… Henry, are you one of the “if it saves just one life” crowd? Is one life worth a multi-trillion dollar hit to the economy? Or ten lives? A hundred? Just where is your cutoff point?
And hey, since we’re playing this game already, why not outlaw private ownership of automobiles? Use of alcohol? Air travel? Backyard swimming pools? Think of all the lives it would save. We’d get used to it, I’m sure. Freedom is highly overrated.
Cranch, you choose to ride in an automobile. You choose to drink alcohol. You choose to board an aircraft. You also choose to swim in a pool. You don’t choose to be infected.
Actually, to a large extent, you do, based upon your own actions.
henry, you choose to write very strange moronic posts.
You do not choose to be run over by a speeding car. You don’t choose to be beaten up by a rowdy drunk. You don’t choose to have an airplane crash into your neighborhood. An infant crawling into a pool doesn’t make a choice. If you carelessly go around risking infection maybe you are making a choice.
But Henry, how is it that you refuse to acknowledge that every action has multiple effects? Multiple effects that must be balanced.
Henry
The money lost is very much other people’s lives! The economy may recover but how many small business won’t and how many people does that equate to? All the people losing their jobs and there lively hoods has a direct effect on their life spans, so how are you to give those people their life span back? Life stress is the number 1 contributer and indicator of early death.
Bob you can resuscitate a failed business, you can’t do so with a dead person. People lost their jobs during the Great Recession, they got new ones. Dead people can’t get a new life. Stress is a part of life, it’s been here before the virus showed up. Business and economic endeavors are transient, they come and go, but death is final.
Henry
So since it’s clear that less people will die from the flu because of the shut down, should we just stay shut down for ever to save those lives?
Being someone who lost his business during the 2008 recession and most of his life’s savings and has spent the last 12 years trying to get back some of those saving I can say without a doubt you have no fracking clue what your talking about. I lost 30 years of sweat and sacrifice, I don’t have another 30 years to get back that let alone what you think is so easily sacrificed now and there are many others that depend on me as well. People die, that’s part of life and matter how much of other people’s lives you are willing to sacrifice people are still going to die. Cars kill let’s get rid of them. Trains kill let’s get rid of them. plains kill let’s get rid of them. Peanut butter kills let’s out law that. Going to work is dangerous let’s out law that. Fighting wars against evil people takes lives let’s never do that again.
So are you claiming that it would be worth it to shut down the entire economy to save one person from death?
Didn’t think so … and at that point, we’re back to the cost-benefit question. The virus looks like it will kill maybe 80,000 people in the US. The interventions we’ve made MIGHT save a few percent of them, but we have no real evidence how effective they are. My investigation shows that they’re not doing a whole lot …
So … is it worth shutting down the entire economy to save say 2,000 people? Again, I say absolutely not. Sure, shut the schools, that’s low cost and high probability it might save some … although again my analysis didn’t show a significant effect from that.
But shut down the economy and throw millions out of work to save a couple of thousand? Sorry, but that’s what we used to call “Stepping on a dollar to pick up a dime”.
w.
“So are you claiming that it would be worth it to shut down the entire economy to save one person from death?” No, I didn’t say that, I said you cannot place a dollar amount on the value of a human life because it is immoral to do so. The problem you have in doing so is that you create a “market” for human life. You are in effect enabling trafficking and exploitation of people when you do so. Answer the question I posed: “if my uncle was on death row in CA, could I free him for $10 million?” $500 million? $20 billion?
Insurance companies value human life all the time. Its literally one of the largest industries on earth. You can estimate that value by the premiums on life insurance. Its hardly immoral. Its also not very high, especially when you are older.
On a pure cost/benefit check here, its better to due minor distancing measure not lock downs. And its not particularly close.
Willis (forgive the informality) I think a lot of people are forgetting the undeniable fact that people in rich countries are healthier and live longer than people in poor countries, generally speaking. The US has been intentionally making herself a poor country for about a month now. That will yield the cost in lives that you’re speaking of, I believe.
The potential deaths now can be seen on the news, whereas the potential deaths later may never be connected to their cause: lack of societal resources and personal resources brought on by panic and shortsightedness (not to mention love of power). Our children’s and grandchildren’s lives will be diminished in quantity and quality, but they’re not on the radar of the “compassionate” elite who only care about some deaths, not all deaths.
Thank you for your efforts.
Henry, people die. Most of those in every country that died of COVID-19 are the old and infirm. COVID-19 is just one of many that visit every year to do the job and we really can’t change it very much. These viruses are opportunistic and ubiquitous and have been around since humans have.
The best we all can do is try to eat healthy and keep our weight down. Exercise and don’t smoke. We all have some personal responsibility in this. And even if we all do our best, sometimes nature has other ideas.
Do you have either elderly parents, or grandparents? If you do, do you consider them expendable for the economy? How about if your wife is old and diabetic? Oh, another “issue” you have is that you used the word “most” which of course we all know means that young people are also susceptible to this virus. I agree every year the flu takes out a lot of folks, but consider this….right now in NYC they are using refrigerated trailers to hold the dead bodies that have overflowed from the mortuaries. They are even going to temporarily inter them in a park.
Where did I post I consider anyone “expendable”? People just don’t live forever and the Flu and other diseases kill tens of thousands of people in the US every year, most of them old and infirm. We don’t shut the place down for them.
Please explain what makes this one different?
BTW I don’t have elderly parents. They have passed on. I’m a 69 yr old male. But I can say this. I have a resting heartbeat of 48, bike 15+ miles almost every day and have been in great shape all my life. I might get CV-19 and not make it through, but more than likely will because I chose a healthy lifestyle. There will come a day as I age where I will be old and probably infirm. It’s inevitable. But when it’s time to go, I will have no regrets.
Henry
Neither my elderly father or mother would ever want someone to sacrifice their future for them. They know that their lives are their responsibility, they would make what ever sacrifice they would need to make to safe guard themselves and if that wasn’t possible then they would accept that outcome. They would never put the burden on others. As would almost anyone from their generation.
“Do you have either elderly parents, or grandparents? If you do, do you consider them expendable for the economy?”
My parents are 67 and 70. I don’t consider them expendable.
On the other hand, I value the (estimated) 60-70 years of life that my children have left more than the (estimated) 5-15 years of life that my parents have left. And the quality of life for those 60-70 years of life my children have left is important.
You can say “the economy will recover” but you don’t know that to be a fact (especially the “when” part). We could be headed for a great depression that will result in lots more deaths than this virus will cause due to a variety of factors. And that would certainly make life much less pleasant than it was before this virus or even is now.
Your idea that this is a “lives vs. economy” situation is incorrect. It is a “lives vs. lives” situation. GDP has a direct correlation with lifespan and overall health.
As to my parents, what I would do is encourage my parents to self-isolate/social distance while the virus is around in order to protect the remainder of their lives. If they refuse to listen to reason, then there are consequences for bad choices.
But I do not think shutting down the economy to “save my parents” is either wise or necessary. They can be reasonably protected without shutting down the economy.
Again Henry, you are unfortunately blind to some of the corpses. The ones who lose their jobs, despair and die of substance abuse, who commit suicide, who through stress develop diseases and succumb to them. The ones k!lled in domestic violence. Why do you avert your gaze from them?
There is a balance which imho neither you nor Willis have gotten correctly. Just as rash to take no action and hope for the best.
Stay at home orders are not as important, it seems to me, as how people are voluntarily modifying their own behavior.
Look at pictures of the roadways and interstates, of the sidewalks in downtown.
People are not doing much more than going to work (if they have to, but many are working from home), or to a store.
These modifications in behavior started long before any edicts directed it to be so.
The NBA cancelled their season when one player tested positive.
Major League Baseball did the same shortly thereafter.
Concerts were cancelled.
Theme parks were closed.
Movie theaters were first almost empty, then just closed up.
Schools closed, and University’s closed and told everyone to go home, even though many people lived on campus.
Businesses told people to work from home if they could, then told everyone to work from home unless it was some sort of essential business.
I think the stay at home orders came after most people were already doing that, and a few people who were flagrantly defying what had become the norm. And in a short span of time the norm came to be do not congregate in crowds or even large groups.
I for one am not focused on modelling or analyzing a comparison of different locales.
What it seems like to me is a more or less haphazard convergence towards a large segment of the populace deciding they did not feel like getting this particular disease, and taking person steps to protect themselves.
And a large component of that is the most obvious one: Do not go near anyone who might have the virus if it can be avoided. And since basically anyone could possibly have the virus, that winds up at the logical conclusion of self imposed isolation. As much as possible.
Look at it this way: If tomorrow morning some official who you trust says all the movie theaters and ball games and concerts and theme parks and airports and vacation spots and everything else is going to open and everyone needs to pretend this virus is not a thing…would that still be someone you trust?
I for one would not do anything different than I have been doing: Not worrying about it, but also not doing anything I absolutely do not have to do that could or would cause me to spin the COVID 19 roulette wheel.
Here is the layout of the roulette wheel, as I see it: About 80 of the 100 slots on the wheel are either nothing at all happens, or the spinner of the wheel gets a dry cough for a few days, perhaps a fever, and a few that are like being sick like in a usual bad cold or case of the flu; 10 to 20 of the slots though, say “Get really darn sick, so sick you go to the hospital for the first time in your life because of a virus”; about 5 to 10 of those 10 or 20 say “Get really really REALLY sick, so darn sick they put you in the intensive care unit at the hospital, where you will remain for as much as FOUR TO FIVE WEEKS! Thanks for playing!; and somewhere between one and three of the slots say “Go to the cemetery. Go directly to the cemetery. Do not pass Go, do not collect $1200”.
Even without knowing that many of the people who do not get a cemetery slot on the wheel, will nonetheless having somewhere between long term organ damage to the lungs, and never being anything like healthy ever again…even without knowing that…I for one have no desire to spin that wheel and play that particular game of chance.
Heck…I am not even anywhere close the stage of hating this that I make myself pretend I am stuck in a mountain cabin in the Arctic in November… with no chance of rescue until Spring.
Instead, I am at the “Dang! This sucks, and I wonder how it is gonna end?” stage, personally.
As soon as I see some solid scientifical evimadence of a treatment with a very high rate of promising a good outcome, I will be at the “Who the hell cares about corona virus!” stage.
Unfortunately for you, you’re spinning the wheel whether you want to or not. Statistically, sooner or later, your spin is coming regardless of your behavior, since you’re still connected to everyone else through at least the need to acquire food you don’t produce yourself from time to time.
But fortunately for me, I am far more informed, equipped, resourceful, fastidious, and careful than everyone else (everyone else in the collective sense, not EACH everyone else).
IOW…I know how to protect myself, and intend to.
Can I get it anyway?
Yup.
Will I get it from fomites on a box delivered by Amazon or Walmart? Nope…not unless they can survive being sprayed with Lysol, sitting in the direct Florida Sun, and/or the type of hand washing I am doing.
I have N-95 masks and a whole bunch of cheaper ones, I have and know how to use eye protection, disposable gloves, Hibiclens, povidone iodine, 93% isopropyl alcohol, every cleaning product known to man, 50 pounds of calcium hypochlorite (a few ounces makes a gallon of extra strong bleach), and all sorts of other stuff, plus I know a lot about nutrition, have been a lifelong swimmer and biker, have never smoked, take no drugs, do not drink even a little bit EVER, and all sort of other stuff that I figure maybe just might give me a slight edge.
By the way none of that stuff did I purchase this year.
And…if I do become infected anyway, I am angling for a low infectious dose.
Luck and fate favor the well prepared.
In the end, my not wanting to get it will not necessarily prevent me from getting it, but it does not have to.
All that has to happen is I do not get it before whichever of the treatments that work, are well understood so I do not get some crap that will not help if I have an unlucky spin, or a vaccine comes along, or whatever.
And if I do get it and get real sick, oh well, I did everything I could think of.
No point in worrying about anything out of your hands.
I can tell you I do know what hospitals where are having clinical trials, and I know these places have a far higher level of patient care than some other places.
I aint gonna just go wherever.
And doctors tend to like me…I speak their lingo.
At this point, I think the virus has infected somewhere in the single digits percentage of the population…so just giving yourself an edge will go a long way.
Fortunately.
Willis,
I agree with you in general – but I think New York and its neighbors are clearly a different story.
California nCOV deaths are low – presently under 100 per 10M pop – but New York just passed 3000 per 10M pop.
New Jersey, Louisiana, Michigan also appear to be a different story: 1669, 1393 and 850 respectively.
Seems to me that the IHME model was originally tuned for the west coast states, had to be updated to take NY/NJ into account (NJ was way under counted in first model), and further tweaked when hospitalizations were nowhere near forecast. I was also amused at the projections for Wyoming, which has yet to report a COVID related death and my eyeballs estimating a 2 week doubling time for confirmed cases.
One thing missing from the model was the fraction of people taking mass transit as that would have a huge impact on the effectiveness of stay at home policies.
Based on the drastic changes between updates, the models should not be used for policy decisions more than a week in advance. (Sounds a bit like long term weather forecasting) Based on the experience of the last two months, for next winters repeat of the pandemic the US should implement closing of ski areas, and a ban on travel from high risk areas.
Emotionally the decision makers need a cure.
Hydroxy Chloroquine and some mixers looked like a possibility it need do only help 80% of people well and it would be fine.
Problem is political BS has hit it and that is sad. politics and ego, big problem.
good article thanks again.
If the proportion of all infections that reach the serious (i.e. ventilation required) ICU stage is very low, but the proportion of those that subsequently die is very high, then it is definitely a waste of time, as resources overwhelmed or not, the number of deaths will be little different. Also as it tends to take the infirm, the death rate from all other causes after it has passed will drop for a while.
‘That does not mean there will be no extra deaths – but, Sir David says, there will be “a substantial overlap”.
“Many people who die of Covid would have died anyway within a short period,” he says.’
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654
The important data no one knows is the total number of infections – millions of which have probably had negligible symptoms.
It would be ‘scary’ if the media did a running count/commentary in any average flu season of people that died from any cause that happened to also have flu. e.g. If the worst hit area in Italy is notorious for atrocious winter air quality and normally has 100,000 excess winter deaths, then suddenly things look very different.
If you think you can control the epidemic, you need to talk to doctors from New York.
+1
I don’t see people like Willis saying that won’t be a problem and won’t happen they are just placing a higher value on the Economy. It’s the classic problem how much is one human life worth and there are multiple answers to that and who gets to decide?
I have a son, an engineer, who has a keen interest in Mathematics, Statistics and Computer Modeling. From the first reports, he has closely followed details of the spread of the virus. He has been frustrated that crucial questions should have been asked ages ago but were not. To make matters worse the media and politicians keep fanning the flames of alarmism with their ignorant assertions. The consequences of their foolhardy responses will cause considerable economic damage. Will there be any accountability?
I strongly agree that COVID-19 mitigation methods must be based on a realistic assessment of costs as well as benefits, However, the assertion that flattening the curve can not reduce overall mortality is almost certainly wrong. This would only be correct if access to health care and the efficacy of COVID-19 treatments don’t matter, or will not improve over time.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that overloading of hospitals in some areas (e.g., northern Italy) degraded standards of care and contributed to increased mortality, particularly among groups that were de-prioritized for treatment. Buying time to increase hospital, ICU, and critical equipment capacity can save lives. This is very hard to quantify in real time, but we should ultimately be able to make estimates of the case fatality rate and infection fatality rate over time and by group.
While the media and authorities have made much of the capacity issue, the more significant factor is the likelihood of improving treatment effectiveness over time. If any of the drugs current being assessed are shown to be effective in reducing the severity of the infection, or if protocols for supportive treatment can be improved, this could substantially reduce the number of deaths as well as the number of patients who are permanently impaired. Delaying COVID-19 infections by even a month or two could make a big difference.
Given that New York has passed both Italy and Spain – and continues to display a much higher rate of death curve – is hospital overload really the main concern? Are NY hospitals worse than the eponymous Italian ones? Because now the NY outcomes are worse…
C1ue,
I don’t understand your comment that New York continues to display a much higher rate of death curve then Italy or Spain.
The number of reported COVID-19 cases in New York state (150697) is comparable to Italy (135586) and Spain (140511). However the number of reported deaths in New York state (6268) is substantially less than Italy (17669) or Spain (14673) – at least so far.
I also do not think this is the relevant question when assessing the utility of mitigation measures or whether flattening the curve can save lives even if the total number of infections is not reduced. New York City where many hospitals are said to be nearing or at capacity is reporting 55% of the cases in New York state, but 73% of the deaths. The situation in Lombardy where hospitals were overwhelmed. The reported case fatality rate in Lombardy is 18.2% according to this source:
https://github.com/pcm-dpc/COVID-19/blob/master/schede-riepilogative/regioni/dpc-covid19-ita-scheda-regioni-20200408.pdf
You can’t compare absolute numbers – Italy has a population of 60.8 million people while New York State has a population of 19.4 million.
Spain’s population is 46.4 million.
What matters from an epidemiological perspective is the number of deaths per unit of population.
The numbers above are for 10M population – a typical flu season might see 1000 to 2000 flu deaths per 10M – which is what Willis has noted in the wattsupwiththat COVID-19 graphs page.
However, Spain, Italy and New York have long since exceeded the 2000 deaths per 10M point – and they’re still increasing. New York, in particular, is increasing a lot faster than Spain and Italy.
So: if the nCOV mortality rate is so bad in Italy and Spain because the hospitals are overwhelmed – what then do you say about New York where the mortality rate is higher and increasing faster than either Spain or Italy?
Excellent point. It is now increasingly clear that hydroxychloroquine and zinc is a safe and effective treatment. Supplies have been deployed widely. We are at most approaching the top of the bell curve. We could hope that 80-90% of the remaining projected deaths could now be avoided. At this moment the US is at 14,668 deaths with a model projection of 61,000 deaths. If 80% of the projected remaining deaths were avoided, the US would end up with under 25,000 deaths.
I hope that Trump Derangement Syndrome doesn’t sentence 36,000 people to a needless death. Come on media, you can pretend that Biden told Trump about HCQ and Trump stole the idea.
“I hope that Trump Derangement Syndrome doesn’t sentence 36,000 people to a needless death. Come on media, you can pretend that Biden told Trump about HCQ and Trump stole the idea.”
You know, I saw something that I would consider strange on Fox News Channel this morning and it is possibly related to your question.
Two nights ago, Tucker Carlson was interviewing Dr Seigel on Fox News Channel and at the end of the conversation, Dr. Seigel mentioned that his 96-year-old father had been infected with the Wuhan virus and had gotten to the point where he thought he was on Death’s Door, and asked Dr. Seigel to get him some hydroxychloroquine, which he did, and Dr. Seigel said in a very short time his father had recovered. So, naturally, I thought this was significant. Not only because it is another example of people being very ill with Wuhan virus, and taking hydroxychloroquine, and being back to normal in a matter of hours or days, but also because it happened to a high-profile doctor who is a contributor to Fox News about the Wuhan virus pandemic.
So now the strange part: I was watching Fox & Friends this morning and they interviewed Dr. Seigel about the Wuhan virus situation, but they never even mentioned his father, or the fact that he had such a good experience with hydroxychloroquine!!! Not one word.
And I thought to myself: Is the leftwing smear campaign against hydroxychloroquine affecting even how Fox News Hosts are addressing, or in this case, not addressing the promise of hydroxychloroquine?
Not one word about it. Unbelievable.
re: “And I thought to myself: Is the leftwing smear campaign against hydroxychloroquine affecting even how Fox News Hosts are addressing, or in this case, not addressing the promise of hydroxychloroquine?
Not one word about it. Unbelievable.”
Almost as bad as mentioning Dr. Mills and Hydrinos on various forums; “not done in polite company” eh?
Since that interview on Fox & Friends yesterday, I saw Dr. Seigel interviewed three more times on Fox by various hosts and again, not one mention of hydroxychloroquine or what it did for his father.
You would think the hosts would at least be congratulating Dr. Seigel on his father’s good fortune, but no, not one mention.
I’m beginning to wonder if corporate at Fox has put out a message to their hosts to stay away from the subject. They do seem to be pushing Fox to the Left a little. They focus on the meme’s the Leftwing media create and treat them like they are legitimate instead of being skeptical about everything coming out of the Leftwing media. That’s my biggest problem with Fox. If it appears in the New York Times, then Fox has to talk about it, giving the Fake News legitimacy.
What I found dumbfounding was that at yesterday’s WH press briefing, there was no mention of the American Thoracic Society’s guidance. Not surprising that there was no question from the Democrat political activists (assembled in the guise of reporters), but usually Trump would be crowing about such a development. Why the silence?
https://www.thoracic.org/about/newsroom/press-releases/journal/2020/ats-publishes-new-guidance-on-covid-19-management.php
I’m not so naive as to believe HCQ-Zn is a cure for every case, but the anecdotes are sure building up.
https://babylonbee.com/news/liberal-treated-with-hydroxychloroquine-hopes-he-still-dies-of-covid-19-to-prove-trump-is-stupid
Yes, I would think that deserves mention.
From the link you posted: “to consider extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) in patients who have refractory hypoxemia, COVID-19 pneumonia (i.e. ARDS), and have failed prone ventilation”
It looks like they are not only allowing for the prescribing of hydroxychloroquine, they are also recommending the use of the ECMO which eliminates the requirement to shove a tube down a patient’s throat. I would want this kind of machine doing my breathing for me, if I had a choice. 🙂