Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been following the many changes in the IHME coronavirus model used by our very own most incompetent Dr. Fauci. (In passing, let me note that he’s been wrong about most everything from the start—from first saying it was not a problem, to predicting 200,000 deaths in the US (based on an earlier version of this model), to advising people to NOT wear masks, to opposing chloroquine. But I digress …)
The IHME model is here, and it’s well worth a look, although not worth too much trust—it’s been wrong too many times. To their credit they’ve put the results online here.
Another problem with it is that the presentation of the data is so good. It’s good enough that it’s hard not to take it as fact.
The model historically has predicted numbers that were too high. The latest incarnation of the model is predicting 81,766 COVID-19 deaths in the US by August 4, 2020. That’s down from 93,000 in the previous incarnation of the model. Are they finally right? History makes one cautious. There’s a discussion of the upgrade of the model here.
However, despite their past high estimates in absolute numbers, I figured that their estimates of the shapes of the responses is likely pretty close to realistic. So I thought I’d take a look at the projected daily deaths, to see what I could learn. In particular, I wanted to investigate this idea of “flattening the curve”.
What does “flattening the curve” mean? It is based on the hope that our interventions will slow the progress of the disease. By doing so, we won’t get as many deaths on any given day. And this means less strain on a city or a country’s medical system.
Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period. Valuable indeed, critical at times, but keep in mind that these delaying interventions do not reduce the reach of the infection. Unless your health system is so overloaded that people are needlessly dying, the final numbers stay the same.
Now, the model lists three kind of interventions on a state-by-state basis. The interventions are:
• Stay at home order
• Educational facilities closed
• Non-essential services closed
I figured I could take a look to see if imposing those restrictions would make a difference to how flat the curve is. Of course, to do that, I had to figure out a variable that would represent the “flatness” of the curve. After some experimentation, I settled on using the highest daily death number as a percentage of the total number of deaths. For convenience I’ve called this number the “peak factor”, and the larger it is, the more peaked the curve is.
So to start with, here are a couple of states with very different peak factors from two ends of the scale. The graph shows the shapes of the curves, but not the actual sizes, of the daily death counts in the two states.

Figure 1. The shapes of the curves of daily deaths for West Virginia and Missouri. Both have been scaled to a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1, and then aligned to zero. Both datasets slightly smoothed (Gaussian filter, FWHM = 3 days). For purposes of illustration of curve flattening, I’ve adjusted them so the total number of deaths are the same in both states.
Note that the area outside the blue line but still under the yellow line (bottom center) is equal to the amount of the peak above the yellow line. It’s the same total amount, just spread out over time.
Now, that looks like interventions are working … except for one detail. West Virginia imposed all three restrictions. Missouri only imposed two. And for those two, Missouri imposed them both later than did West Virginia.
So that pair certainly doesn’t say much for the effectiveness of our interventions. Why are they so different? Unknown, but presumably because of things including the density and distribution of the population.
So that’s what the effect of the interventions should look like. It should take a peaked curve and transform them, stretch them out over a longer time with a lower peak. And more interventions should flatten the peak even more.
Intrigued by all of this, I returned to the IHME model. One interesting discovery that I made was that for all of the states, the number of deaths before the peak is very close to the number of deaths after the peak. This was true for states with a high peak factor as well as a low peak factor, across the board. This should allow us a rough-and-ready rule of thumb to estimate the total deaths once the peak is passed.
Note that this rule of thumb is true no matter when the lockdowns are removed—all that will do is change the date of the deaths, not the total number calculated by the rule of thumb.
For example, Italy. Let me go look it up at Worldometer … OK, the peak was on March 28th, at about 10,000 deaths. That would make me think that total deaths in Italy will be on the order of 20,000 deaths.
To check that prediction, I just now looked for the first time at the IHME model country page for Italy. Until this latest update, they didn’t cover other countries, just the US. OK, the IHME model says 20,300 deaths projected for Italy. So my rule of thumb appears to work quite well. Let me test it with Spain. First, Worldometer. It says there had been 9,400 deaths by the time of the peak daily death in Spain. Rule of thumb says that the total should be on the order of 18,800 deaths. Turns out when I got there that the IHME model page for Spain says 19,200 deaths. So it seems that the rule of thumb works well, at least according to the model. Whether it works in the real world remains to be seen …
Next I looked at the peak factor for all the states versus the number of interventions, to see if the interventions tended to lower the peaks and flatten the curve. Figure 3 shows that result.

Figure 2. Scatterplot, “peak factor” showing how peaked the curve is, versus the number of interventions imposed on the populace. Red “whisker” lines show one sigma uncertainty of the median. Since there are only two states with zero intervention, no uncertainty calculation is possible.
As you can see, the total number of interventions makes no statistically significant difference in the flattening of the curve.
So I thought, well, let me look at the dates of each of the three types of interventions—stay at home, close schools, close businesses. Maybe there is relationship there. First, here are peak factors of the various states versus the timing of their “stay-at-home” order. Over time, the intervention should lead to lower peak factors, with early adopters getting greater benefit. Here’s that result.

Figure 3. Scatterplot, peak factors of the states versus the date on which they imposed the “stay-at-home” order. The yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. The trend is not statistically significant.
What that says is the opposite of what we’d expect—in this case, the later the intervention happened, the flatter the curve. Should be the other way around, earlier interventions should lead to more effect on the outcome.
Next I looked at the closing of non-essential services. Here’s that result.

Figure 4. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all inessential services. Again, the yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. This time the trend is statistically significant (p-value = .028)
However, despite the statistical significance of the trend line, it’s going the wrong way. The early adopters should be less peaked by now, not more peaked. Finally, here is the school closure data.

Figure 5. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
It’s sloped the wrong way again, but I saw that graph and I thought “Hang on … that one data point is influencing all the rest”. So removed that point, which happened to be Iowa, and took another look.

Figure 6. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
At least this one is going slightly the right way, although the trend is still not significant. That lack of a clear result may be a result of the bluntness of the instrument and the small size of the data sample.
Despite the lack of significance, I suspect that of all of the actions taken in the Western world to slow the spread of this illness, closing the schools could be the only one to have an actual measurable effect. Don’t get me wrong, any intervention has some effect however small. But I mean a real significant effect.
I say closing schools could have this effect because schools, particularly grade schools, could have been designed to be a very effective way to spread an infection. Consider. You not only have the kids packed in close together indoors for five days out of the week. Worse, it’s the same kids every day, so they have multiple chances to infect each other. Worse yet, they all go back home at the end of the day to infect the rest of the family, or to bring in new fun illnesses for “show-and-tell-time” at school to start the process over.
And finally, as all kids do, they wrestle and kick and cough and grab each other and sneeze and spit on the ground and trade clothing and eat bits of each others’ lunches … it’s a perfect petri dish.
So if you want to slow an infection, closing the schools at least makes logical sense.
On the other hand, stay-at-home orders where people still go out for groceries as well as to either work in “essential” jobs or purchase other essentials (and non-), that seems like a joke to me. The virus is sneaky. The Fed-Ex driver just dropped off a couple of packages here … there are still loads of people out and about. It’s all around. It can live on surfaces. It is transported by coughing, sneezing, or even talking. Yes, if you do a full-on surveillance state detecting, tracking, and contact tracing like South Korea has done, that will work. But you need to give your phone GPS data to the government to make that work. There’s no way Americans, or most westerners in general, would do that.
The western style style of quarantine leaks virus like a “closed” Senate hearing leaks classified information, and then the virus is transported everywhere. There’s really no attempt being made to track contacts. I suspect it would be futile at this point.
Overall? I see little evidence that the various measures adopted by the western nations have had much effect. And with the exception of closing schools, I would not expect them to do so given the laxness of the lockdown and the vague nature of “essential business”. I’ve mentioned before, here in Sonoma Country California, the local cannabis retailer is considered an essential business … strange but absolutely true.
Finally, I want to talk about that most mundane of things, the humble cost/benefit analysis. Draw a vertical line down a sheet of paper, label one side “Costs” and the other “Benefits”. Write them down on the appropriate side, add them up. We’ve all done some variation of that, even if just mentally.
Unfortunately, it seems Dr. Fauci doesn’t do cost/benefit analyses. It seems he only looks at or cares about the benefits. He called millions of people being thrown out of work “unfortunate” … unfortunate? It is a huge cost that he doesn’t want to think about. He’s not going to lose his job. His friends won’t lose their jobs. Meanwhile, at the same time that he’s saying “unfortunate”, the mental health hotlines and the suicide hotlines are ringing off the wall. People are going off the rails. Domestic violence calls are through the roof, and understandably. Forcibly take the jobs away from a wife and a husband, tell them that they are under house arrest, that’s stress enough … and meanwhile there’s no money coming in, rent and electricity bills are piling up, can’t put gas in the car, kids bouncing off the walls from being cooped up … of course domestic violence and suicides and mental health problems are off the charts.
Which brings me to California where I live. If California were a country it would have the fifth-largest economy in the world. Fifth. Just California. The annual GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the total value of everything we produce) of California in round numbers is three trillion per year. We have no hard figures, but it would not surprise me if 2020 was only seventy percent of normal, not from the virus, but from the government pulling the wheels off of the economy. That’s a loss of Nine. Hundred. Billion. Dollars. That’s bigger than the GDP of most countries, up in smoke.
And that’s not counting the cost of partially offseting the governmental destruction. First, the government pulled the wheels off of the economy. And now, they’re pumping out taxpayers’ dollars like water to try to ease the pain that they’ve just inflicted. That $1,200 check people are talking about? That a cost, not a benefit as the chatterati would have us believe. It comes out of our pockets. And there are all kinds of other associated expenses, lost wages, the list goes on and on.
So overall, here in California alone we’ve lost pushing a trillion dollars of value, with millions out of work, tens of thousands of businesses shuttered forever, discord and dismay abounding … and for what? For what?
Well, it’s for the following. Here is the IHME model projection for coronavirus deaths in the fifth largest economy in the world …

Figure 7. Projected coronavirus deaths, California.
That’s it? That’s all? Eighteen hundred dead? That’s less than California murders. It’s less than California gun deaths. It’s a third of our drug overdose deaths, for heaven’s sake, and guess what?
The trillion dollars we lost from the government shutting down the California economy?
It won’t save one of those 1,783 people. Not one.
It will just delay their deaths by a week or two.
A trillion in losses are on the cost side of the cost/benefit analysis. And on the benefits side, all we have is a two-week delay in eighteen hundred unavoidable deaths? That’s it? That’s all that a trillion dollars buys you these days?
Ah, you say, but more people might die if the medical system is overwhelmed. Are there enough beds and ventilators?
Well, glad you asked. Here are the figures, again from the IHME model. Unfortunately, as with the number of deaths, all the previous incarnations of the model have overestimated the need for hospital resources … but with that caveat, here are their California numbers.

No bed shortage. No ICU bed shortage. And we just shipped some ventilators to New York. We should peak in a week.
And while we’re waiting for the peak, we’ve just spent about a trillion dollars to delay 1,783 deaths by a few weeks. Not to save anyone’s life, I say again. Just to delay a couple thousand deaths by a couple weeks … look, it still wouldn’t be worth a trillion dollars even if we could actually save that many lives and not just delay their deaths. If it helps your conscience you could give the family of each person who could have been saved a million dollars, that’s only 0.2% of your trillion dollars, and the economy could keep humming along.
But it’s simply not worth totally wrecking the lives of 30 million Californians just to save eighteen hundred lives. That’s madness, that’s a terrible deal.
I have opposed this from the start. I don’t do a one-sided “benefits” analysis like Dr. Fauci does. I do a COST/benefit analysis, and we’ve just looked at it. Here’s the conclusion of that analysis:
Even if your hospital system is going to get overloaded, even if more people are going to die, put the trillion dollars into making the medical system the strongest and most resilient imaginable. Spend it on field hospitals and stocks of disposables, buy ventilators, buy hospitals, buy medical schools, buy beds and gowns, that’s what will save lives. I don’t care, shut down the grade schools if you have to although with a solid medical system you likely won’t have to … but whatever you do …
DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY, STUPID!! The costs are far, far too great.
Just the human costs are beyond measure. Lives ripped apart, suicides, endless worry and concern, running out of money to feed the kids, there’s no end to it, lying in bed at night wondering when they’ll let you out of jail.
And that’s all before we even get to the economic costs and the ripple-effect costs and the loss of productive capacity and the canceled contracts and the lawyers’ fees and finally, the start-up capital required, and the businesses that will have gone elsewhere, and the need to rehire or replace people and overhaul idled machinery, etc. etc. once this monumental stupidity is over.
So this is a plea for all you women and men at the top, the ones deciding when to call off the madness, I implore you—get up out of your offices, look around you, go to a small town and talk to some unemployed businesswoman whose local enterprise is now belly-up, understand what the loss of that business means to that small town, and GET AMERICA WORKING AGAIN TODAY! Not tomorrow. Today. Every day is endless pain and worry for far too many.
Here’s how crazy this lockdown is. You folks who decide on this for California? You are costing us trillions of dollars, and you are literally killing people through increased suicide and depression and domestic violence, and it’s all in the name of delaying a couple of thousand deaths. Not preventing the deaths, you understand. Delaying the deaths.
Killing people to delay death, that sounds like a charmingly Aztec plan, it comes complete with real human sacrifices …
Sheesh … it’s not rocket science. Further delay at this point won’t help. End the American lockdown today, leave the schools closed, let’s get back to business.
And yes, of course I’d include all the usual actions and recommendations in addition to leaving the schools closed—the at-risk population, who are those with underlying conditions, particularly the elderly, should avoid crowds. And of course continue to follow the usual precautions—wash your hands; wear a mask at normal functions and not, as in your past, just at bank robberies; only skype or facetime with pangolins, no hootchie cootchie IRL; refrain from touching your face; sanitize hard surfaces; y’all know the drill by now … the reality is we’ll all be exposed to to coronavirus sooner or later. And like the Spanish Flu and Hong Kong Flu and a host of diseases before and after them, after a couple of years the once-novel coronavirus will no longer be novel. It will simply become part of the background of diseases inhabiting our world like the Swine flu and the Bird Flu, all dressed disreputably and hanging out on every street corner in every town waiting for someone to mug …
My regards to all, and my profound thanks to the medical troops who are on the front lines of this war. The wave is about to break in the US, dawn is approaching, it will be over in a month. And hopefully, long before then. these insane regulations will go into the trash, we can stop paying trillions to delay a few deaths a few weeks, and we can get America up and working again.
w.
A REQUEST: If you know someone who makes the decisions on one of the lockdowns, or if you know somebody who knows one or more of the women and men making that decision, please send them a link to this document and ask them to read it and pass it up the chain so that we can all get back to work sooner rather than later.
To facilitate this, I’ve put a copy of this post for anyone to download as a Word document here, and as a downloadable PDF document here. Send a copy to someone who might make a difference.
MY USUAL REQUEST: When you comment, please quote the exact words that you are referring to. Only in that way can we be clear about what you are discussing.
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This study just published in Lancet says school closures have only a minimal effect:
https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lanchi/PIIS2352-4642(20)30095-X.pdf
Thanks. Gotta say, their claim that kids are “less likely to spread the virus through coughing or sneezing” is cold comfort, and seems offset by the fact that they are more likely to be asymptomatic.
w.
There are not only the kids, but also teachers involved.
Asymptomatic for Covid-19 perhaps, yet sneezing coughing and drooling from other causes and spreading the virus regardless.
Plus they are far less likely to be conscientious about the fact that there we got this a’here virus dealio goin’ around.
Kids and middle agers mostly get it, give it, and get over it. This is the best way to build that ‘herd immunity’. Of course the elderly and frail need to be protected. All retirement homes must be closed for this 3-4 wks of nastier virus season. All these other measures are truly flattening the curve but at some point we need to get back to living – then with only ?50% of the herd immunized – here comes the next bump this fall.
The following confirm Rick’s point.
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/Coronavirus 93% of deaths w/ C19 in WA state occurred amongst those age 60 & older.
https://digg.com/2020/coronavirus-death-rate-italy-spain-elderly The results are similar in Italy, Spain & S. Korea.
Changing perspective helps support the results of Willis’ analysis. Healthy people 59 & younger have less chance of dying with C19 than of winning a $100+ million lottery. So, preventing such people from carrying on their normal daily routines will NOT significantly affect deaths with C19. Worse, ordering these people to stay home WILL INCREASE deaths from anxiety related causes (suicides, overdoses, heart attacks … _) and by murders.
The consequences for hospitalizations are similar. 50+% of those 59 & younger w/o complicating health conditions are asymptomatic when infected, or they feel only slightly subpar. So, they will NOT seek hospital care. The others can be sent home because they do NOT need hospital care.
Willis, another point you make is worth emphasizing. Flattening the curve FAILS to reduce the # of deaths with C19, unless it reduces deaths caused by rationing health care services. I will add: A more effective way to allocate health care service is to give priority to those KNOWN to be most vulnerable to dying with C19.
Time to wrap up: The KEY public health issue is how to better protect the most vulnerable to dying with C19. Another key issue is how to minimize the adverse consequences such measures have for the rest of society.
The more I learn, the more I am convinced that it is co-infections that are responsible for making COVID-19 deadly for a tiny minority of the infected. It has very high rates of asymptomatic and mild infection. Is it not plausible that besides “pre-existing” health conditions, a determinant of deadliness is another common and sometimes-deadly pathogen?
Kids spreading COVID-19 and the other pathogen or pathogens, would be a plausible explanation for your finding.
But the thing I am most convinced about is the “housing and environment” factor. New Zealand is an outlier; it had to have had COVID-19 spreading as early as anyone else did because China is a major trading partner and source of tourists, immigrants and arrivals. Lockdown only started after the first death in late March. Testing has been slow and late, quarantining based on tracing contacts (like Singapore) is non-existent, and border triaging extremely lax even now.
The fact that there is one death and 14 hospitalized in total so far is NOT due to any inherent POLICY superiority. Lockdown can’t be the reason that there is no sign of previously infected people still ending up in intensive care during the early days of lockdown!!! (Like there is in every other country).
Confirmed cases of “community transmission” is “two”! The other 1100 total confirmed infected, only 14 of whom are in largely-empty hospitals, are explained by known contact with infected people from overseas. The experts need to be excited about studying New Zealand to discover what factors make its people so “immune”. Plenty of experts are pointing out that COVID-19 is an infection with a high rate, 40 to 60%, of asymptomatic cases, and of the rest, most are mild illnesses only. The true rate of infection on average everywhere is around 100 times “confirmed infections”. New Zealand obviously has the highest rate of asymptomatic or mild infection anywhere in the world!
I say it is obvious, self-evident, that the factors are low urban density, clean air, the elderly being predominantly in good suburban housing, the fact that it is not flu season in the Southern Hemisphere (hence absence of the co-infections that actually result in deaths “with” rather than “of” COVID-19), and NZ’s climate itself (ambient humidity, temperature etc at this time of year). See this paper for guidance on environmental and seasonal factors:
https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-virology-012420-022445
Obviously there can be quite different environmental conditions from region to region even within States and countries. All else being equal, one would expect rural regions to have lower death rates and yet there are exceptions, suggesting that their environmental and housing conditions should be investigated.
My bet is that countries with these very low rates have already “had it” and so have some immunity. There’s no reason why South Korea, Taiwan and Japan should be so lightly hit. I note Japan had a very early flu season and Korea and bad flu season. Could easily have been COVID.
Actually, from what I recall regarding the study on the Princess cruise ship,when testing positive for the “dreaded virus,” the older you were the more asymptomatic you were by percentage: obviously, the older you were and symptomatic, the worse it was for you. Thought I had read another study on http://www.swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19 (which was linked from WUWT awhile back) which stated that children with the “dreaded virus” were more symptomatic.
Regards
ak
No surprise there is little effect from closing schools. Most students are not in any high-risk categories.
The way I see it, schools are germ factories…really efficient ones.
And kids are germ fountains…not like a gently flowing kind of fountain, but the kind that sends out high pressures jets in every direction…willy-nilly-like.
Willis Eschenbach how do a very high R0 and high asymptomatic fraction affect the analysis?
High SARS-CoV2 Infection rate
CDC has calculated each person’s R0 reproductive number at very high 5.7 of new persons infected per newly infected person. This China Virus has a very rapid spread of 20%-31%/day or doubling every 2.3 to 3.3 days. The Communist Party’s refusal to quarantine Wuhan before the annual Spring Festival New Years celebration caused this pandemic to very rapidly seed cross China and thence to the world.
If asymptomatic cases are 2-3 times those with symptoms, that causes it to spread unannounced very rapidly. That suggests what some thought was the “flu” could have been COVId-19.
High Contagiousness and Rapid Spread of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article
https://twitter.com/QTRResearch/status/1247873179391012864/photo/1
David L Hagen April 8, 2020 at 1:02 pm
Those are the very reasons that the “quarantine” doesn’t work in western countries … it’s very sneaky. If you want to quarantine against it you have to do it Chinese style—lock people in their apartment buildings and deliver food to them.
Anything less the virus just laughs at.
w.
This is true. And reading this paper in more detail is somewhat laughable. There was a study in Oregon where a serum tested positive had the disease in December. Their 5.7 R0 is based on the assumption that only 4,000 people in Wuhan had in on Jan. 18th. That doesn’t jive.
Again, the CDC, Imperial College and and initially IHME were all using IFR north of 1% and high R0, that they do not adjust. This throws out millions of dead even though the majority of evidence suggested otherwise. A highly transmissible virus floating around in China since Nov/Dec and only 4,100 Wuhan residents have it? Just that modeling alone should show the fallibility of those projections. It was more likely in the millions or 10 of millions, where the majority of people that have little ability to pay or access healthcare are low/no symptom patients.
Case counts are super irrelevant because they are biased and CFR is then rendered meaningless until testing is random and large – please ignore case counts on TV and Worldometers for your own good. IFR can be estimated other ways until large scale serum testing is done (Diamond Princess was a perfect example).
jibe.
This is a good link, though a bit primitive. I have seen several private models and public ones. First thing:
1. NYC has easily the highest R0 outside Wuhan. Probably 4.0 or something. Europe 2.5-3.0, rest of US 2.0-2.2. Its very density driven
2. Once people are aware of a virus R0 drops, so NYC drops from 4.0 to 2.0 quickly
3. Distancing drops is further. Lockdown maybe is 0.5
4. R (which is R0 adjusted for the amount of people immune) drops very quickly as people are infected, especially if R0 is high.
By definition the higher the R0 the lower the IFR – the chances you die if you get it. If both were high the death toll globally would already be millions and maybe 10’s of millions. Oxford has the IFR at 0.1%-0.25% which is 1-2.5x a bad influenza year. Those numbers feel right to me, even a little high.
A friend of mine who does modeling for COVID has been saying NYC is already >50% infected and recovered by next week – almost herd immune. It all happened before the lockdown. As of now its the safest place to be if you are high risk. There will be no second peak.
There are 2 things affecting Kung flu spread.
1) Population density
2) Density of that population….
You left out the obvious connection to the prevalence of people with the Flu Manchu style of facial hair.
Actually, there’s a subtlety in the relation between R0 and percentage immunity. See that plots I posted at https://twitter.com/JosephHBorn/status/1247823025602465792?s=20
Absolutely what I have been saying re the lockdown here in UK. Well said Willis. I dont have your analytical skills but common sense says that wrecking an entire economy so that a relatively small number of people very sick with this virus are not turned away to die somewhere else. Tragic but necessary.
There will be far more deaths and suffering as a result of wrecking the economy than would occur from the virus – and the economic effects will last a much time.
Can we rely on the total number of virus deaths given by the government? I don’t believe we can. As noted in other articles posted on WUWT, a large number of patients in Italy and other countiies were old or very old. Many had serious underlying health conditions. Some had more than one serious underlying condition. According to one of the doctors on the Federal task force, if a person with the virus dies, their death is counted as a virus death. The presence of virus may have been a contributing factor however, we should not just assume that all deaths were caused by the virus. A person may have died of a heart attack, cancer, or some other pre-existing or unknown condition however, that death is counted as a virus death. Do we really know how many people actually died of the virus and not some other cause?
Iatrogenic deaths are counted as COVID deaths also, and it’s starting to look like that may be responsible for a lot of mortality.
The protocol-driven approach mentioned below is the ARDSnet protocol of high PEEP (pressure) with low oxygen that COVID patients are subjected to when placed on ventilators. The proposed physiological approach that resulted in 0% deaths at one European hospital is low (as possible) PEEP with high oxygen.
Is protocol-driven COVID-19 respiratory therapy doing more harm than good?
https://www.the-hospitalist.org/hospitalist/article/220301/coronavirus-updates/protocol-driven-covid-19-respiratory-therapy-doing
Some German doctors have said they were shocked by images from Italy of the use of ventilators. They avoid using them as they say they cause a lot of lung damage.
I have the same question
I read somewhere that whenever there is a headline with a question…the answer is no, 100% of the time.
The headline of the article was “Are headlines with a question in them always false?”
Hmmm…
COVID19 Death Certificates are Being Manipulated According to Montana Physician with 30 Years Experience
https://healthimpactnews.com/2020/covid19-death-certificates-are-being-manipulated-according-to-montana-physician-with-30-years-experience/
CDC Tells Hospitals To List COVID as Cause of Death Even if There are No Test Results Confirming it
https://healthimpactnews.com/2020/cdc-tells-hospitals-to-list-covid-as-cause-of-death-even-if-there-are-no-test-results-confirming-it/
They have a different code so if you don’t like the stat being used don’t be lazy and filter out the one you want to present.
Everybody is starting to realize
https://twitter.com/chrisbergPOVNOW/status/1247680994821509121
…not turned away from hospital ….. and last a much longer time.
The data in this report reflect events and activities as of April 8, 2020 at 9:15 AM.
All data in this report are preliminary and subject to change as cases continue to be investigated.
These data include cases in NYC residents and foreign residents treated in NYC facilities.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary-deaths-04082020-1.pdf
The peak of the Spanish flu occurred in autumn.
There is a scenario not many are mentioning: the next wave. In 1918, the mortality rate in the first wave of the Spanish Flu from (6/29–7/27) was one fifth the mortality rate of the second wave that started in October. There are reasons to be optimistic about a second wave because warmer temperatures will likely reduce the spread, but come fall we’d better have effective treatments and health care capacity for the most serious cases or we’ll be right back where we are now. It is hard to imagine going through another period of self-induced economic destruction later this year.
Some hopeful news about a possible broad-spectrum vaccine:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-successful-mers-vaccine-mice-covid-.html
And a potentially effective treatment for the most severe cases:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-coronavirus-patients-benefit-blood-recovered.html
re: ” in the first wave of the Spanish Flu from (6/29–7/27) was one fifth the mortality rate of the second wave that started in October.”
Case sample of one; are there other examples where the flu (etc) has come in ‘waves’?
This one. Social distancing and school closures are credited – at least in part – with causing 2 additional waves, the third one being the worst.
“Social distancing and school closures can create multiple outbreaks… when examined in detail, the “waves” result from the aggregation cases occurring non-uniformly with respect to location and time (Fig. 8). In addition, the multiple “waves” do not occur because of differences in the recovery time or susceptibility to infection due to geographical factors. These results provide strong support to the hypothesis that a combined effect of local transportation, social distancing, and school closures can produce multiple macroscopic (whole-country) “waves” for the same epidemic; as observed in Mexico during 2009 (Fig. 2)…
The “waves” in the cases considered here occur because the implementation of social distancing and school closure measures pause, but not stop, the spread of the disease.
https://www.aimspress.com/fileOther/PDF/MBE/1551-0018_2011_1_21.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21361398
“There is a scenario not many are mentioning: the next wave. ”
Doh!
I knew I was forgettin’ sumptin’!
Well done. But, despite continued exodus of citizens, there are 40 million Californians, with an unknown number of illegal aliens.
I have noticed for some time that the death rate of coronavirus in both Hong Kong and Singapore is about 0.5%. These places are more densely populated than New York, have closer tie to China and their outbreak was earlier. Also, the death and infected numbers are quite reliable and believable. How come that their death rates are so low and different from those in Europe and USA? They seem to test suspected cases only.
Thank you for doing the maths.
I have been arguing this very point for days, but now the numbers are showing.
The UK’s curve is far from flattening but there is an encouraging deviation downwards of about 35% from the longest persistent trend line. In the absolute numbers the divergence is some 3800 cases from 10905 (trend line) to 7097 actual recorded deaths as shown here
Are there “Unintended Consequences (a la polio)” of flattening the curve?
a charmingly Aztec plan, it comes complete with real human sacrifices
One-child? That is so Pro-C… I guess it depends on how you define “human”, “sacrifice”, and “real”.
Not only is Fauci wrong, he’s dangerous and at the very least, he’s allowing politics to cloud his judgement’s. In the extreme, he’s acting as a Chinese operative. That video recently posted by kenji, is eye raising.
https://youtu.be/eglF0BFkkrQ
Willis, thanks for putting forth a clear and understandable explanation of the need to consider the unintended consequences of actions that are often taken to address the symptoms without understanding fully the benefits, let alone the costs. Your point about the constancy of the total deaths is a very important one. You also nailed the need not to overload our healthcare facilities as that could lead to an increase in fatalities. It does no good when the Governor of New York demands 37,000 ventilators, when the actual number they apparently will need is less than 10,000. My only caution is that the data is really not very good, particularly given the large number of asymptomatic infections as well as the possible undercounting of COVID-19 deaths given the shortage of test kits over the past two months. That said, you have done this as well as possible at the moment, and I certainly hope your analysis is considered by our decision makers.
I haven’t seen any mention that the malaria meds are prophylactic and curative. Isn’t that the real deal – we took malaria pills in VN – give the quinines to medical staff and the +60 crowd with underlying morbidities – tell old folks to shelter as much as possible – and have everyone else get back to work?
re: “I haven’t seen any mention that the malaria meds are prophylactic and curative. ”
You must have missed the postings in previous threads; I think the group has ‘moved on’ …
Flattening the curve does reduce the death count. If there is a high peak there are no ventilators available at all and clearly more people will die.
Even besides that, how valid is the premise that, “Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period.”?
Is this generally true of pandemics; is it accepted principle?
The area under the curves is the same. It’s a function of mathematics.
If Drs. Gattinoni in N. Italy and Kyle-Sidell in NYC are right, then too many COVID patients are on ventilators, and the machines are set too high.
They have concluded that many Covid patients shouldn’t be ventilated under high pressure because they don’t have ARDS.
https://www.the-hospitalist.org/hospitalist/article/220301/coronavirus-updates/protocol-driven-covid-19-respiratory-therapy-doing
If they’re right then some deaths have been iatrogenic, caused by assuming the patients suffered from ARDS. Had we known more about the illness, by being let into China, US and European doctors might have discovered this sooner, if it in fact be the case.
John this is an excellent point. I work in the health system and I see every day how health providers feel far more enthusiasm for doing something rather than watching and waiting. The underlying sentiment seems to be “it can’t do any harm” and that sentiment is always wrong. Everything we do can have both benefits and detrimental effects. Not considering both possibilities when doing anything to a patient is a grave mistake.
Of course, the dictatorship might not have wanted the sainted Dr. Li to survive.
All the more reason to try to not get it for as long as possible.
Reason #$1,201: Learning curve of the medical teams caring for COVID-19 patients.
🙂
That’s some reason, that Reason #22!
That’s a really good point.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/
If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
It’s a novel virus, so docs are learning on the job. Again, being in Wuhan hospitals would have sped up the learning curve. Maybe 33 year-old hero Dr. Li, who reportedly received ECMO (although can’t believe anything ChiCom regime says), might have survived.
To find more asymptotic survivors is a reason for wide antibody testing. Not all plasma donors are created equal:
https://news.yahoo.com/plasma-treatment-being-tested-york-213100838.html?
I have sleep apnea and use a CPAP machine. It can be set to a constant pressure, a bilevel pressure (lower when exhaling, higher when inhaling,) or forced breathing mode where if you stop breathing, it will increase pressure until you do . There are attachment for these machines if additional oxygen is needed.
Compared to hospital ventilators, they are cheap. Perhaps these are all that’s needed for COVID patients having trouble breathing.
Maybe for many or most, except those liable to die anyway.
Ventilators are probably killing more people than they’re saving. Most COVID patients need O2, not pressure.
https://rebelem.com/rebel-cast-ep79-covid-19-trying-not-to-intubate-early-why-ardsnet-may-be-the-wrong-ventilator-paradigm/
Ventilators are probably k!lling more people than they’re saving. Most COVID patients need O2, not pressure.
https://rebelem.com/rebel-cast-ep79-covid-19-trying-not-to-intubate-early-why-ardsnet-may-be-the-wrong-ventilator-paradigm/
Survival is not guaranteed by putting Wuhan Virus patient on a ventilator. The older person’s chances are, generally speaking, not as good relative to a younger person. Then too, the individual’s underlying condition also impacts their chances. If my memory is correct about a USA medical professional’s statement at this data stage the average survival rate is less than 75%.
Yep. It’s the availability of intensive care beds that must be maintained. Cheaper to add more beds IMHO.
It isn’t the beds….it’s the staffing…..
The whole rationale for flattening the curve is to keep the health system from becoming overloaded. The poster child for an overwhelmed system is probably Ecuador. They can’t even pick up the dead bodies fast enough.
You may think America has the best medical system that has ever existed anywhere, and it probably does, but the bottleneck is ICU beds. How many of those are available in your community? The probable answer is probably, not enough … unless you can sufficiently flatten the curve.
You can ask the Ecuadorians about the wisdom of partying hardy in the face of a pandemic.
Except Willis shows the number of ICU beds in his neighborhood against the projections. There are plenty
So, suppose that you have two cities in 1950. How do you know how many long distance phone circuits to run between them? Ultimately, you have to decide how much of the time you are willing to have all the circuits filled with the result that some customers won’t be able to make a connection. You can’t afford to have one long distance circuit per subscriber. Not only that, but most of the time most of the circuits will be unoccupied which seems like a waste. Your boss’s boss’s boss will lay down policy on how much of the time you’re willing to put up with all the circuits being full. You will then tell him how big the cable has to be. erlangs
The ICU bed problem is similar. In 2005, the national ICU bed occupancy was 68%. link That means that a distressing amount of the time there was an ICU bed shortage in some communities even without any sort of emergency.
Even in NYC they haven’t run out of ICU beds or Ventilators, that’s per Governor Cuomo just yesterday.
It’s not nearly as clear cut as you think.
Has NY peaked? When will it peak? Anyway, it sounds like things aren’t that rosy as it is, and people aren’t getting the care they need.
+++I appreciate this comment.
For most of the posts across the internet I see the same, fundamental assumption. I do not understand how this point can be overlooked. I am starting to think that it is purposeful oversight as I see it so often and as often refudiated.
If there are more people requiring medical assistance than the system can accommodate at that time it is very likely that their prognosis will be *significantly* worse.
Jabre do you think people are refusing to go see a Dr?
I know I am…I am assume a physical will not be scheduled, because they are fighting Corona
And when a vaccine comes along then those yet to be exposed won’t die either. Of course if the vaccine is say a year away then it would seem irrelevant.
Thanks to the bobs. I understand that the rationale is to keep the peak lower than the health system can help at one time. I discussed that. Let me summarize.
• I’ve been to Ecuador, I have friends there, and the situation there breaks my heart.
• The issue is, as you say, the medical system can’t cope.
• Ecuador has about half the hospital beds per capita that the US has. In general its medical system is quite poor. There is not a whole lot that their medical system CAN cope with.
• In other than heavy surveillance states like Korea and China, the various measures taken to “lower the curve” have not been shown to be effective, including in this study.
• Ecuador is poor, in many parts desperately poor. Shutting down their economy would impoverish, injure, and even kill untold people.
• Should they “party hardy”? I never said that. I said take all the appropriate steps we know of, avoid crowds, close the schools, wash hands, the usual, and DON’T SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY, DUH! And put the money saved into the medical system as fast as you can, even this very day.
I hold that that is just as true for Ecuador as the US. They already have a big disease problem. Adding a gigantic, huge economic problem on top of that in the hopes of sparing a few is madness.
Regards,
w.
Willis writes
I’d say its being effective in Australia. Infection rates have stayed low and so far each Australian State appears to be on top of tracking the infections.
Personally I think that’s an excellent initial strategy but without a vaccine, leaves the country in an even more difficult position going forward.
You did not and I apologize if I left that impression.
From the reports I have read, ‘party hardy’ pretty much describes what the people did. Perhaps I exceeded my poetic license. It might be more technically correct to say that they displayed a cavalier attitude to the looming threat.
There are two things about the situation in Ecuador.
1 – It seems to be the worst case scenario and, IMHO, an object lesson.
2 – Although much of Ecuador has malaria, the city with the coronavirus doesn’t have it. That accords with Roy Spencer’s observation that places with malaria don’t have coronavirus and vice versa. link
This is the greatest epidemic that we have seen in a long time and even in NY city the hospital system is keeping up. Yes its a strain and yes we should learn from this and yes we need to be more prepared, but no we don’t need to bankrupted the entire country over this.
There was a comment from a poster that actually lived in the city that generated that information about bodies laying in the street. He actually said it had to do with the way they deal with the dead and the government had closed down most of the mortuaries as being non-essential. Place on top of that the shuttering of wood mills which supplied wood for the coffin building and all the people could do is put the bodies out in the streets. Many of the bodies were from the average daily death rate and not primarily from covid-19.
Yes their medical system is overloaded, but it probably always is. Life expectancy there is likely lower all the time.
But Ecuador’s covid “reported” death toll is currently a mere 20 per million population. Much, much, lower than half the states in America.
Italy, Spain 300, NYC 500+ Whereas CA is 15. I doubt many dispute that mitigation buys time and spreads the case load across a limited resource base. Nowhere in America It also simultaneously allows better medical practice outcomes to circulate. The question is at what cost to the rest of everything else.
We have a luxuriated population because of modern healthcare access. We have “cheated” our way around natural selection. Taking for granted that we are owed, that we have a right to x years on the planet is the default presumption in our policy. The presumption needs challenging.
If we reduce US productivity to Ecuadorian levels we’re going to have an Ecuadorian level health system.
So it seems that the rule of thumb works well, at least according to the model. Whether it works in the real world remains to be seen …
It’s the standard feature of the logistic curve which does work rather well in the real world.
You focussed on grade school closures, one thing that concerned my university was that all our students would leave campus during spring break and disperse all over the country for a week (many by air) mix with many others then return to campus and spread any infections around campus. Consequently we decided to close campus for the rest of the semester and go to virtual classes. Several years ago we instituted a fall flu vaccination program free to all students and faculty and it has definitely had a good effect on the usual outbreak in flu after the fall break.
Indeed, Phil. My surprise was that I’d expected that the disease would ramp up more quickly than it would taper off. The models says no … now we’ll have to see if that is borne out in the real world. Fascinating stuff.
Regarding schools, I didn’t mean just close grade schools for the duration. On my planet, it’s appropriate to close any school that can reasonably be expected to pose a problem, as you have done. Shutting down the economy does little compared to shutting schools.
I lived for some years in Solomon Islands north of Australia, where malaria rules supreme. They have the British boarding school system where the grade school kids go away, sometimes to another island, for the duration of the semester.
And when they came home from boarding school, they were always accompanies by a wave of malaria …
Thanks for the comment,
w.
Willis, thank you.
“.. I’d expected that the disease would ramp up more quickly than it would taper off…”
Seems the NYC numbers agree more to that then IMHE projections of two weeks back.
New hopsitaliztions are lower than peak,
but not dramatically so. Perhaps midpoint is much farther to the right.
Spain Italy similar.
Willis
Kudos! Now, you just have to convince Monckton.
And over 90% of the population 🙂
In Monckton’s backyard support is running at 93%.
Good luck with that. Milord is stubborn.
Monckton is right.
He’s wrong. He doesn’t even understand the basic problem, which is the data is useless. Thus using data to prove your argument immediately fails.
We have some basic data, totally all-cause deaths, and that’s about it. Look at that and nothing shows up. There’s now a great deal of argument about the resource claim, with doctors saying that ventilation is a mistake both medically and ethically, and simply putting everyone in ICU and on a ventilator is a mistake.
Phoenix44: “We have some basic data, totally all-cause deaths, and that’s about it. Look at that and nothing shows up.”
WR: The basic data: totally all-cause deaths in the Netherlands in week 13 showed that there were1300-1600 more deaths than ‘normal’. Normal in a week: 2700-3000 deaths in this time of the year.
Official Corona count for week 13: 592. Missing (!) 700 to 1000 extra deaths: probably Corona. Which means that the general number of all-cause deaths shows that the situation is two to two and a half times as serious as the official numbers show.
The Netherlands only show tested cases and in nurseries and at home people dying people are not tested and so not counted as corona deaths. The same in Flanders (Belgium) until recently and in France (until recently). The situation in many countries is more serious than official numbers show – that is what shows up when you look at basic data.
I don’t see how you can model it. Population is unevenly distributed in the states. In New Jersey where I live it’s concentrated in the NE corner. Here is today’s report for New Jersey with a map https://www.nj.gov/health/cd/topics/covid2019_dashboard.shtml?fbclid=IwAR13y6aoFPeQh8J2pvON509usNwP8Og_Qr9riyvIAoTZ35EEdhB1VN4ODlg
It’s not just the NYC metro area. In most states, it’s concentrated in a few urban and suburban counties.
John, absolutely correct. In Oregon 65% of cases are in three counties that represent 40% of population.
Although the NYC mayor and health commissioner did pursue especially idiotic policies, as did the mayor of New Orleans and governor of LA.
Great post Willis (again!!)
But, was it ever thus? –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
Willis
You said, “Of course, to do that, I had to figure out a variable that would represent the “flatness” of the curve.”
Kurtosis?
Good question, Clyde. I looked at using that, but eventually concluded a) the death rates are not necessarily perfectly normal in distribution, and b) kurtosis measures non-normality, not “Peakiness. As an example, both of the distributions in Figure 1 are relatively normal … just very different. So kurtosis doesn’t measure the quantity of interest.
So I chose height divided by area (actually the sum of the deaths, which represents the area) as the measure of how tall and skinny the distribution is. Seems to work and is sensitive (wide range), as Figure 1 shows.
Best regards,
w.
No brief for the bailout here, but that doesn’t seem quite right. No, I don’t like the way they did it it, but in principle it could be done in a way that makes some sense. Consider the following hypothetical:
Suppose the treasury issued everyone $3000 in income taxable at 100%: the $3K they get this year would be added to everyone’s tax bill next April. Politically impossible, of course, but what if it weren’t? Administrative friction and tax non-compliance would probably end up costing us something, of course. But a lot of folks will get income shifted from next year, which they can plan for, to now, when they really need it.
Does that make us poorer? Maybe, but not by nearly $3K x population.
They are gonna have to monetize it this time.
Some are calling for a period of very high inflation, something we have not seen in many decades, coming to a theater near you this Fall. Or so.
Thanks, Joe. As I mentioned, I do a cost/benefit analysis. My only point was that people want to count that on the benefit side of the page. It doesn’t belong there. Best case is that in some hypothetical friction free sense where everyone paid the same amount of taxes, it would be neutral.
But it’s not that world, so some people will win and some will lose. I call that a cost as well. If I come to you and say “Joe, I’m gonna throw you in jail if you don’t take $3,000 out of your pocket and give it to your neer-do-well couch-sitting brother-in-law because he is poor boo-hoo,” that does NOT net out to no cost to society. It may be a cost we are willing to pay, but it is indeed a cost.
My point was that you can’t get richer by redistributiong money from person to person. You can only get poorer. How much can be debated … but it is NOT a benefit as claimed by the chatterati.
Which is what I said.
w.
“Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths”
Everybody repeats this; few can backup that statement. Is it true?
I’m skeptical. I can think of situations where it is true and I can think of situations where it is not.
For example, a theoretical (impossible?) case where the whole world goes on a total perfect lockdown and the virus dies out in 14 days and the world goes back to what it was last year as far as the virus is concerned, which is billions of people with no immunity but no virus.
Toto: The virus will not disappear because we no longer have carriers. Without eventual immunity it will go on infecting. Consider polio, the plague, ebola, etc. …. once thought eradicated but still pop up on the radar.
If there are no human carriers, the virus is gone from humans, no? So this problem would be solved until next time. There will be other viruses and more pandemics.
You mention polio. Polio is a good example. Once common, now mostly gone. And any herd immunity is gone with it. There is a vaccine for polio or else it would still be a pandemic.
One thing that flattening the curve does is give more time to develop vaccines, antibody tests, and other things that could limit the contagion and the issues of lockdowns. Like we do for malaria — there is a pill to prevent getting it. More time to do research on what works and what doesn’t. Meanwhile, take more zinc.
If flattening the curve could get us back into the initial stages where we had few carriers, we could do it better for the second wave. More testing, more contact tracing.
A lockdown done poorly is one that needs to go on forever because it doesn’t get the job done.
Yes, there are situations where it would reduce cases and deaths (e.g., vaccine or treatment discovery).
But most experts seem to assume this is going to stick-around and eventually become seasonal (albeit not nearly so destructive).
From my experience, “everybody repeats” that flattening the curve will bring things back to normal sooner, too. Sometimes the curves are right there in front of their eyes to tell them that is not the case…and sometimes the curves are truncated (seemingly intentionally) so that you can’t see that to be the case.
I like Willis’ in depth look at the effect when measures are introduced etc. Once our expectation of what seems “obvious” turns out not to be the case at all. We need a lot more fact checking examining whether our assumptions are correct.
However, I think Toto, like another person above has put his finger on a flaw in Willis’ logic which explains why this all looks pointless.
He deftly demonstrates that flattening the curve in California , where according to current models it is already flat enough it TOTALLY pointless. The whole point of flattening is to avoid health service saturation. If that is not likely, it makes no sense and is doing immense harm for nothing.
However, he stops there and seems to make an unsubstantiated jump to concluding this is automatically can be generalised to the whole USA and pleads “End the American lockdown today”
I’m generally in agreement and I’m sure most states should not be in this insane shutdown. Europe should get out of it as quickly as possible.
It is not clear from this article that would apply to NY.
You bring up a good point. If the US borders were closed on New Years day, there would be few if any cases in the US. But they weren’t. So cases popped up in the big cities with international airports. And then it spread to smaller areas and so on. If only there was a way to set up green zones and red zones.
So we are left with keeping distant from others. Is it working? If not, try something else.
BTW, there is police type enforcement and there is social pressure type enforcement.
The former generates backlash. The second is more effective.
Thirty of the fifty US states are predicted to have NO shortfall in ICU beds. As to NY, they have a huge ICU bed shortage. Yes, IF the listed interventions actually flattened the curve in a significant manner, they MIGHT save a few hundred deaths in NY, maybe as many as a thousand although that seems unlikely.
So then we have to ask, given that shutting down the economy doesn’t seem to have helped in the states to date, and given that if it works it MIGHT save as many as 1,000 deaths, and given that a number of those would die from many comorbidities regardless of COVID-19, and given than only 1% of the NY deaths have no comorbidities … should we shut down the world’s biggest financial center and throw millions out of work on the off chance that we might save 500 or 1,000 lives?
You’re making Fauci’s mistake. You have to balance the HUGE costs of shutting down any modern economy against the chance, not a guarantee but a chance, that doing so might save a thousand lives.
Me? I say absolutely not worth it. That’s a third of the annual overdose deaths in NY.
w.
Why do you say NY has a huge ICU shortage when admissions have been stable for the past 14 days and the hospitals are still managing? They are now well into their peak and don’t seem to be overrun. The plateau has also happened too soon to put it down to the lockdown.
“I don’t do a one-sided “benefits” analysis like Dr. Fauci does.”
Thats exactly what you are doing. On the one hand you are railing against the economic cost for the saving of a disproportionately small number of lives but ignore the fact that without the economic cost many more would have succumbed. You say “not a guarantee but a chance” but that is plainly incorrect. Not just from Fauci but senior epidemiologists worldwide. In countries where shuttering was done early the death toll has been insignificant. In Australia and NZ for example community spread has been neglible as a result of EARLY shuttering, testing, social distancing, etc,.
We are outliers. Both Oz and NZ have very spread out population centres. Even our capital cities are very small and sparsely populated compared to most other countries. My town has no significant nearby towns for 500km.
You are making the same fallacy as Monckton. Spurious temporally coincident change is not correlation and is no reason for jumping to your conclusion of attribution.
You start from expecting a certain effect and then jump to confimation bias to claim it’s happening.
Global CO2 has increased since the 14th March , that must be the cause of the reductions in new COVID cases. You seem to think it causes every other change on Earth, why not this one?
The danger is with the shutdown CO2 may begin to drop and we’ll have a “second wave” of COVID.
Stop the shutdown ! We must act now!
Loydo, I live in a state where the count of cases is very low. Even in my medium sized city only 5% of those who think they are sick have been positive for the virus. You are assuming that after some period of shutdown we will all be just fine.
Will we? We still live in a very mobile society. Seems to me this will just allow the virus to gain entrance again and up jumps another curve. Only this time there’s no way to shutdown the economy. All that happened was the problem was delayed.
That’s why the only hope is for a miracle treatment or vaccine. Otherwise, we are damaging our economy for almost no benefit.
China is loving it.
SOURCE
SOURCE
SOURCE
SOURCE
SOURCE
I’m just posting these to show that as I’ve been saying, the lockdown itself is killing people …
My point is that in this cost/benefit analysis of the economic shutdown, there’s blood on both paths.
w.
ZZW, I agree to a point that we are generally spread out but cities of 1-5 million with avid travellers, international airports and cruise ship ports are at equal risk world-wide. The only US states to have a higher population than Australia California and Texas. You have to run down the list of US states to Minnesota before you find one with fewer deaths than the entire country of Australia. If New Zealand was a US state it would rank 25th in population behind Alabama, but only Wyoming would rank lower in deaths. It’s a lot more than just population density.
“you start from expecting a certain effect and then jump to confimation bias to claim it’s happening.”
Fair enough Greg, what strategies/circumstances/timing would you say have made such a huge difference in outcomes between certain countries?
Just yesterday Cuomo stated that the situation is stable and there are enough ICU beds and ventilators.
As I explained, that’s not technically true:
https://twitter.com/JosephHBorn/status/1247823025602465792?s=20
Thanks, Joe. Actually, it is technically true. Flattening the curve just spreads out the disease. Whether that reduces deaths or not is a function of the medical system, not of the flattening. It is the shortcomings of the medical system that is causing the deaths, not the shape of the curve.
If we have a medical system like California’s you can flatten all you want and not reduce deaths. And if you have no medical system at all, none, then everyone badly afflicted will die regardless of flattening. Death numbers are a function of the medical system, and as such, it makes MUCH more sense to improve the medical system than to shut down the economy and throw millions out of work.
It will cost NY millions of dollars from their shutdown. Think of how many ICU beds and ventilators that would have bought since February when we could see the problem coming. Then consider that there’s no evidence I’ve seen that shutting down the economy makes any significant reduction in the curve … bad deal all around.
w.
Ventilators cost about the same as a small car and have about the same useful life. Imagine asking the car companies too tool up production to double the total number of cars on the road in the next few months. Its laughably impossible. Its the same for the few companies making ventilators.
Pro tip: just saying it’s technically true doesn’t make it so.
For the benefit of any lurkers, I’ll mention that I did the math and plotted the results at the Twitter link above. The math shows that flattening can indeed reduce deaths even if we have all the ventilators and ICU beds we need.
Agreed you can reduce deaths if:
1. Herd immunity is achieved through disproportionate exposure to low risk people
2. The virus burns out before infecting to herd immunity (in this case its probably 55-60% requirement)
3. The virus is delayed to a vaccine/virus weakens (as the tend to do)/treatments improve (as they tend to do)
It won’t save lives if the end result is herd immunity uniformly achieved with no medical treatment changes or viral decay.
For a counterargument, see https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/08/flattening-the-curve/#comment-2960077
Pro tip: Just saying that something is technically true doesn’t make it so; the oh-yeah-so’s-your-old-man response is not compelling. Please try to tighten up your game.
For the benefit of any lurkers, I’ll mention that I did the math; it shows that flattening the curve can indeed reduce the number of deaths even if we have enough ventilators and ICU beds and even if we come up with no improvements in treatment. The Twitter link above gives plots the results. And I’m not the only one who came up with that result.
Joe Born April 8, 2020 at 5:45 pm
Pro-tip. You were the one who flatly claimed it was not technically true, which doesn’t make it so. Please try to up your game, blah blah blah …
Damn, Joe, you’re better than this. You understand my point. Delaying deaths does NOT necessarily reduce deaths. Here was my statement about flattening the curve:
“Valuable indeed, critical at times, but keep in mind that these delaying interventions do not reduce the reach of the infection.”
Are you denying that what I said is 100% true, and if so, where and why?
w.
Look, I admire your facility with data sets, and I find your “thermostat” hypothesis quite insightful and the data you’ve marshaled in support compelling. I freely admit that I wouldn’t have had the capacity to come up with it myself. So please don’t take this the wrong way.
But we all have our limitations, and your failure to recognize yours has led you consistently to reject help with math from the half dozen or so of us at this site who can provide it and have attempted to do so.
I explained on Twitter why I disagree with your statement that “Delaying deaths does NOT necessarily reduce deaths.” I’ve done the math and plotted the results for you. I’ll even comment the script I used and send it to you. If you can provide a reasoned explanation as to why you disagree with it, fine.
But you haven’t so far, and, frankly, nothing in my experience suggests that you can. That’s okay. We all have our limitations; I certainly have mine.
Just try to entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, some of us actually know what we’re talking about.
Sorry Joe. That twatter link’s mess, I see 1/5 and 2/5 then a load of junk.
I gained nothing from reading what was there.
Twatter is an awful media for anything but the plus banal in life.
Sorry about that; you’re among the few who probably could have understood the concept (although I see above that you haven’t yet).
I don’t know what to tell you except to try using Twitter’s search feature with my name and clicking on “Tweets & replies.” There should be five of my tweets on this subject, with two plots.
Unfortunately, I have no way of sending you what I’ve sent Mr. Eschenbach: the underlying scripts with extensive comments. (His other gifts notwithstanding, my sending it to him is no doubt casting pearls before . . . someone who wouldn’t appreciate them. But, hey, I tried.)
Then consider that there’s no evidence I’ve seen that shutting down the economy makes any significant reduction in the curve
ZERO PIONT ZERO.
I have that question also. Good example.
“put the trillion dollars into making the medical system the strongest and most resilient imaginable”
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Too late, the pandemic is already here. Might have worked if you did it last year.
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“wrecking the lives of 30 million Californians just to save eighteen hundred lives. ”
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So, are you saying that $1,000,000,000,000 / 1800 is your dollar value on a human life?
Yes, in fact my value is a lot less. Just fricking stupid, if you found out that you could save ten lives for 100 trillion dollars would you spend it? Those dollars your dismissing are people’s lives, many many peoples lives.
Henry,
Strawman argument. What he is saying, if I may Willis, is that wrecking the lives of 30 million people will cause far more loss of life than the 1800 the virus is predicted to take. If you disagree with that, fine, then state your case. As distasteful as you may personally find it, our elected leaders must make these kind of calculations all the time. Resources are always limited are almost always less than the perceived need. So sometimes, yes a human life is reduced to a value of some kind to help make a particular decision. It can’t be avoided, and you are naive if you think it can be.
“wrecking the lives of 30 million people will cause far more loss of life than the 1800 the virus is predicted to take”
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Sorry, there is no evidence that this is the case, it’ just you assuming so. PS, my argument is not a “strawman” it is derived by the implicit dollar valuation that Willis has placed on a human life.
Henry,
I don’t have data for the US, but in Italy, 85% have been over 70 years of age. Assume US is similar. Ballpark figures here.
We are going to spend far more than two trillion dollars to compensate for Wuhan virus economic losses. Assume, wildly unrealistically, that the economic catastrophe from shutdown will save 100,000 lives (probably ten times too high). That’s $20 million per life, or at a minimum two million per year of remaining life. The real figure could easily be ten times that high.
Weigh end of life expense vs. cost of early in life enjoyment and productivity. All is not absolute, but relative. Many great grandparents would willingly give up a year of bedridden, painful, drugged life for more time for their young descendants.
I know I gladly would, although that’s easy for me to say, lacking great grandkids.
This 👍
Henry,
No assumptions necessary. Just look at Venezuela or any poor third world country for that matter. Need something more concrete? In the state I live in there has been a spike in motor vehicle deaths since the shut-down because people are driving a lot faster since there are not as many vehicles on the road. Stupidity? Of course, but still a consequence of the shut-down. Also trending up are suicides, robberies, and assaults. Which will all get worse as time goes on.
Henry, are you saying that spending one half of a billion dollars of someone else’s money to buy an extra 5-10 years, on average, for a person is a reasonable idea?
The real problem here is some people’s demand for “safety”. Safety, like dry land, is a myth. It does not exist in and of itself, only as a relative comparator between two or more things. What we have is risk. And risk is different for each and every individual.
Let’s use COVID-19 as an example. I’m in my mid 40s and due to health issues am in the high risk group, I probably have 1 chance in 5 of dying if I get this. My kid sister is in her upper 20’s and in perfect health. Her chance of dying is much less than 1%. In economics, I make a comfortable living, have decent savings, own my home, have a job in an “essential” industry, and can work from home/in isolation. She makes less than half what I do, is currently laid off due to the lockdown, can’t work from home, has little savings, and rents. While my risk from the shutdown is very low, it is putting serious risk on her.
My example is essentially the statistical pattern you will find in the general public as well. While the older are at higher risk for COVID, the younger are at higher risk from the economic shutdown. This leads us back to the $1/2 billion dollar question: Why is it okay/a good idea to transfer so much risk from the older population unto the younger? More importantly, why would anyone be for taking away one’s choice on which risks they are willing to accept? Is it just to eliminate the responsibility on people to mitigate their own risk?
Every day we all make decisions that risk our life and limb based on what we perceive the risks to be, whether we are good at calculating them or not. Now instead of giving people guidance on what their risks are and methods to reduce them, then allow them to make their choices and live with the consequences, we are taking the decision out of their hands and imposing a different set of risks to reduce this one particular risk. But, I suppose it’s an easy decision to make when the risk isn’t yours to bear.
You are free to make decisions that risk your life and limb based on what you perceive the risks to be, whether you are good at calculating them or not. You are not free to make those decisions for me, or for anyone other than yourself.
Henry
its your job to make the decisions for you to protect your self, but its you that thinks you should have the power to alter everyone else’s life to protect yours.
If you are high risk you can self isolate.
To readers: This Pool isn’t worth another keystroke.
That’s a rather poor argument.
Every decision in this involves making decisions for other people. And they can be life and death decisions on both sides of the equation. It’s not simply suicides. Wealth of a society by itself is highly correlated to lower mortality rates. Destroy trillions in wealth and more people will die earlier. Destroy enough and the number will be rather high.
C’mon guys, credit virtue when it’s due. Henry is signaling, admittedly indirectly, that he sufficiently feels for human life that he would welcome deductions from his own savings in the effort to extend lives even for some months. I respect his generous decision to devote his own hard won resources instead of further burdening generations to follow with a soaring indebtedness to effect his wishes.
Looking at the virus maps, it’s blindingly obvious that population density is *everything*. No other risk factor even comes close. And New York City is, unfortunately, is the outcome of a “perfect storm” of risk factors (27,000 people per square mile!) and absolutely criminal policy decisions. Is anyone really surprised what happened there?
This pandemic is not even close to homogeneous. Federal and statewide one-size-fits-all lockdowns are idiotic policy. Some states still only have case counts in the low double digits. Many, many counties in the U.S. have not recorded a *single* case. Zero point zero zero. Why can’t people living there go back to work?
This is outrageous.
Yep! Respiratory disease transmission requires 2 people, the infector and the infectee to be in some relatively close proximity. Thus it is analogous to a “2nd order” chemical reaction for which the rate varies as the square of concentration. So the disease transmission models should have rates that vary as the square of the population density! Do they? I don’t think so and if this is the case, no amount of curve fitting and “updating with better data” will allow them to make better “predictions”! So yes, most of the country is not in any danger of local outbreaks that would overwhelm their normal health systems… and we are finding this to be the case!
Large cities with high populations densities also have mass transit systems. They also have tall buildings with lots of elevators. Both of these are excellent vehicles for disease transmission. As a result the virus moves quickly through these area. The disease was already well up the curve before mitigation policies could have an effect.
Smaller population densities are not as easily infected. However, I think they will eventually go through a curve because of schools and other public transmission areas. They just look flat now because the mitigation took place before the disease got a good foothold.
I fully expect less populated areas to see a large increase in infections once the shutdowns end.