Mean free path of a photon leaving earth’s surface to be absorbed by a CO2 molecule is 33 metres (http://www.biocab.org/Mean_Free_Path_Length_Photons.html). Tha same applies to a photon emitted from a CO2 molecule 33 metres up to strike the surface. The photon energy of the returning photon is that of the temperature of the cloud at 33 meters. It is colder and has less energy than surface molecules and will not increase the surface temperature. Since the photon can be emitted up or down (some say six ways) only half (or one sixth) the energy lost by the surface can be back radiated. The rest remains in the cloud and is thermalised. That energy will be presented at the top of the atmosphere through molecular vibration at the speed of sound. It will be radiated to space at the temperature of the cloud at the point in the cloud where the mean free path to space is greater than the thickness of the atmosphere above it
Photons (all energys) leaving the earths surafce can escape directly to space and do. On cloudy (low altitude) days and nights clouds reflect radiation emitted from the surface back towards the surface from water droplets in the cloud. The photon energy is the same as the surface and will appeaar to retain heat.
This is reflection not back radiation. Back radiation is where the target molecule absorbs the radiation and then re-emits it.
There is no heat trapping greenhouse effect in this analysis.
(PS. I say one sixth as the return path of a photon that is not vertical is longer than the mean free path and will be re absorbed in the atmosphere.)
Nippy,
Thank you for a very useful contribution, I have not seen this point made before.
With regards to the 1/2 versus 1/6 redistribution, it has to be 1/2 because all of the other 4 directions are normal to the surface, and while yes the quenching distance is 33 metres all the surrounding absorption points are also located at the same elevation above the surface, so the only two “escape directions” are down and up. There is no asymmetry in radiation so down is just as likely as up.
The DAET climate model I created for Stephen Wilde has been rejected by the “Slayers”. So, in spite of Mosher’s sky dragon snark, that is not our home. The diabatic form of the DAET model fully replicates the Vacuum Planet equation, and is mathematically unassailable. The model honours the principle of Occam’s razor, namely as simple as possible. It also fully honours the lit hemisphere divide by 2 solar disk flux collection, so there is NO flat Earth divide by 4 weakening of sunlight. Now here is the critical point that everyone seems to miss. The collection of solar energy by the lit hemisphere is NOT a diabatic process.
Convection is a forced process and this asymmetry of partition at the collection interface means that energy is preferentially carried away from the lit surface by the atmosphere (or is carried pole-ward by ocean currents). The air cools the lit surface and delivers energy to the polar regions, and the night-time hemisphere of energy deficit. No one has ever been able to explain to me how a zonally rotating solid land surface can transport surplus tropical energy to the poles.
@ur momisugly Naomi Seibt,
I sure hope you , Naomi Seibt, can attend the conference on climate change on MAY 7-8, 2020
CAESARS PALACE – LAS VEGAS … If you can’t afford it maybe we at WUWT could help fund your
expenses, I know I would contribute if put to the task !!! And you could give some remarks, like you did
in Madrid?
JPP
Johann Wundersamer
February 21, 2020 9:50 am
Tolle Sache, Naomi Seibt.
Appreciate.
Nicht selbstverständlich dass jemand selber denkt.
Mean free path of a photon leaving earth’s surface to be absorbed by a CO2 molecule is 33 metres (http://www.biocab.org/Mean_Free_Path_Length_Photons.html). Tha same applies to a photon emitted from a CO2 molecule 33 metres up to strike the surface. The photon energy of the returning photon is that of the temperature of the cloud at 33 meters. It is colder and has less energy than surface molecules and will not increase the surface temperature. Since the photon can be emitted up or down (some say six ways) only half (or one sixth) the energy lost by the surface can be back radiated. The rest remains in the cloud and is thermalised. That energy will be presented at the top of the atmosphere through molecular vibration at the speed of sound. It will be radiated to space at the temperature of the cloud at the point in the cloud where the mean free path to space is greater than the thickness of the atmosphere above it
Photons (all energys) leaving the earths surafce can escape directly to space and do. On cloudy (low altitude) days and nights clouds reflect radiation emitted from the surface back towards the surface from water droplets in the cloud. The photon energy is the same as the surface and will appeaar to retain heat.
This is reflection not back radiation. Back radiation is where the target molecule absorbs the radiation and then re-emits it.
There is no heat trapping greenhouse effect in this analysis.
(PS. I say one sixth as the return path of a photon that is not vertical is longer than the mean free path and will be re absorbed in the atmosphere.)
“This is reflection not back radiation”
Nippy,
Thank you for a very useful contribution, I have not seen this point made before.
With regards to the 1/2 versus 1/6 redistribution, it has to be 1/2 because all of the other 4 directions are normal to the surface, and while yes the quenching distance is 33 metres all the surrounding absorption points are also located at the same elevation above the surface, so the only two “escape directions” are down and up. There is no asymmetry in radiation so down is just as likely as up.
The DAET climate model I created for Stephen Wilde has been rejected by the “Slayers”. So, in spite of Mosher’s sky dragon snark, that is not our home. The diabatic form of the DAET model fully replicates the Vacuum Planet equation, and is mathematically unassailable. The model honours the principle of Occam’s razor, namely as simple as possible. It also fully honours the lit hemisphere divide by 2 solar disk flux collection, so there is NO flat Earth divide by 4 weakening of sunlight. Now here is the critical point that everyone seems to miss. The collection of solar energy by the lit hemisphere is NOT a diabatic process.
Convection is a forced process and this asymmetry of partition at the collection interface means that energy is preferentially carried away from the lit surface by the atmosphere (or is carried pole-ward by ocean currents). The air cools the lit surface and delivers energy to the polar regions, and the night-time hemisphere of energy deficit. No one has ever been able to explain to me how a zonally rotating solid land surface can transport surplus tropical energy to the poles.
@ur momisugly Naomi Seibt,
I sure hope you , Naomi Seibt, can attend the conference on climate change on MAY 7-8, 2020
CAESARS PALACE – LAS VEGAS … If you can’t afford it maybe we at WUWT could help fund your
expenses, I know I would contribute if put to the task !!! And you could give some remarks, like you did
in Madrid?
JPP
Tolle Sache, Naomi Seibt.
Appreciate.
Nicht selbstverständlich dass jemand selber denkt.