Guest essay by Eric Worrall
According to Extinction Rebellion’s Sarah Lunnon, representative democracy, at least on climate policy and economic management, should be subordinated to citizens assemblies composed of people who are already running citizens assemblies, and people nominated by organisations invited to participate.
…
Farage: Do you understand the argument, if I was a London taxi driver, right, I would say there are people being paid to sit in the street to stop me earning a living. Do you understand how upset some people in central London are about your behaviour?
Sarah: Yes of course, and the whole philosophy of Extinction Rebellion is to disrupt, that is what we set out to do. There is no easy way of saying that, and every time I say that I am sitting in studios and I say to somebody, I am setting out to disrupt your every day life. I feel very, very uncomfortable about it. And it’s accepting that it has been the lack of action for over 30 years from our governments that has meant we have had to take this action to raise this action to raise these issues. If we stand on the streets and hand out leaflets, nobody takes any notice of us, the politicians don’t take any notice of us, and interestingly Nigel, the only reason I am on this programme today is because we’ve camped out on the streets of London for the last week.
Farage: To some extent that is true. But if you really want to move this on, I am somebody who 26-7 years ago, I took the view that our relationship with the European Union was heading in the wrong direction, I wanted to do something about it, I found at the time there were no more than a couple of dozen people in Westminster who were even interest frankly in the issue, and so I had a point of view that was very, very very polar opposite to where political debate in Britain was, and so what did I do, I went out and campaigned around the country, helped formed political parties, gained elected representation, and managed to succeed. I don’t think I’ve ever broken the law in doing what I am doing, so isn’t the real argument here that we are a peaceful democratic society, and that what you have brought to London is frankly anarchy in the last week.
Sarah: So, that’s a really good question. And you, and the idea that we can address the ecological emergency via our democratic system has been one that has been taken forward over the last 30 years. We’ve tried very very hard, like through the green party, through motions, through campaigning, through marching, we’ve tried very very hard to do that, to raise it up the agenda, and to be honest, we haven’t done it as well as you raised the issue of our relationship with Europe,
Farage. Maybe your problem Sarah, maybe your problem is you are making claims which are frankly hysterical. Your website says that there is the possibility of billions dying. That is just not credible, is it?
…
Farage: … What is it you actually want the government to do? Would people be able to go to Marbeya on their holidays? Would they be able to to own a 4×4 motor car? What is it you actually think government needs to do? Government here has actually already made a commitment which is impossible to keep, by saying that by 2050 we shall be zero net neutral on carbon, but you want this to happen by 2025. To do that we would effectively have to close down the whole of British industry, wouldn’t we?
Sarah: We should have to totally refocus British industry, it would be a mobilisation like we did in 1939…
Farage: Hang on, hang on, it’s the opposite, isn’t it, in 1939 we built factories to produce munitions for war…
Sarah: Actually we refocussed our factories, Nigel is what we did. We took the infrastructure that was in place, and refocussed it towards the war effort, and also what we also did was we rationed what was available, and brought the country together, we unified the country and we mobilised to fight a common enemy. Unfortunately the enemy that we’re looking at at the moment, we can’t see it. But it is there, and that is why we are calling for zero carbon by 2025, to defend and protect.
Farage.: So steel would go, chemical production would go, refining would go, what would we have left?
Sarah: So the choices that we’re looking at are really, really grim. And that’s why Extinction Rebellion is asking for a citizens assembly, so the people come together to decide how and what the change that is required looks like. Rather than politicians sitting in Westminster and saying you have to do this, and need to do that, we bring together a…
Farage: How?
Sarah: Well we do it in various ways, we already do it for juries for example, and in the past juries decided life or death of people, we bring it together using um…
Farage: Who? Who brings them together?
Sarah: Well there are a number of people who are already running citizen’s assemblies, there are external bodies, you ask a body of people to set up the citizens assembly, you bring together people from across the united kingdom so it represents people in terms of their age, in terms of their social status, in terms of their wealth, you get a cross section of people, you explain to them, you educate, and then you ask their opinion of how to move forward. Its what the Irish did in terms of their abortion question, which was very controversial…
Farage: And then what do you do, do you put this to a referendum?
Sarah: You implement it through government. You have to keep the structures of the state in place…
Farage: An appointed citizen’s assembly would tell government what to do?
Sarah: They would lead and advise government, and it then becomes very difficult for government to say we are not going to do this, because it has been requested by the people, by representatives of the people.
Farage: I have to say I am very skeptical about that.
…
British politician Nigel Farage, a friend and supporter of President Trump, is living proof that the democratic process works if your cause is legitimate.
Over 30 years Farage has overcome every obstacle, and built what is hopefully irresistible public support for Britain to leave the European Union.
By contrast Extinction Rebellion’s Sarah Lunnon has experienced 30 years of utter frustration. People simply don’t care about her cause. She is so fed up with people not listening to her she wants to change the rules of the game, to force people to listen.
Sarah demands elected government representatives subordinate their decision making to self appointed citizens assemblies, at least when it comes to climate change and economic policy.
If I have understood correctly, Sarah intends that Citizen’s Assembly members would be composed of people who already call their group a citizens’ assembly, and representatives nominated by organizations invited to participate.
Citizens assemblies would advise on the “grim” task of imposing wartime levels of rationing, and would decide what economic activity would be allowed to continue, to fulfil their paramount goal of drastically cutting Britain’s carbon footprint to address the climate crisis by 2025.
Sarah compares citizens assemblies to court jurors, who once decided on whether people could live or die, before Britain abolished the death penalty.
Extinction Rebellion’s intention is that “advice” provided by the assemblies would be very difficult for elected politicians to refuse.
Breaking news: the British Conservative Government has just agreed Extinction Rebellion’s demand to form a climate change citizen’s assembly. 30,000 invitations will be sent at random, then 110 of the respondents will be chosen to sit on the assembly. The budget allocated for the assembly is £520,000. £120,000 will be provided by the government, the rest will provided by the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation and the European Climate Foundation.
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I sure hope the last p as ragraph is a joke.
Sadly no – I was shocked as well.
Capitulating to morons never turns out well. The implausible, hysterical claims of Extinction Rebellion is primary evidence of their stupidity. No one should take them seriously. The proper response is to laugh them out of the room. They’re ridiculous.
Extinction Rebellion are a joke. They remind me so much of the beginning of Communism.
They are a group who should be ignored.
No they are a bunch of Eco-Terrorists. Should be dealt with harshly. Read the report Extremist Rebellion from http://www.policyexchange.org.uk
Just ran across this on the Market Watch website!
“Climate change will break the housing market, says David Burt, who predicted the 2008 financial crisis”
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/climate-change-will-break-the-housing-market-says-david-burt-who-predicted-the-2008-financial-crisis-2019-11-01?mod=home-page
Yup, it will break because the government makes stupid, useless changes in response to an hysterical, threatening, group of agitators. Those folks are mostly supported, behind the curtain so to speak, by overly wealthy “charity” foundations, socialist billionaires, and many naifs in the media.
Nigel- if you read this great job getting her to layout just how off the wall and ridiculous their proposals are.
Eric Worrall
Our government can’t run the simplest of electoral campaigns, a referendum, to withdraw from the EU without screwing it up. Of course they are going to encourage these nutters!
Exactly, the Gov’t does not list XR, despite calls for illegality, on any terrorist action list. In other words openly supports them.
You are absolutely right. They had a meeting with Environment Minister Michael Gove earlier this year, https://rebellion.earth/2019/04/30/extinction-rebellion-today-8-45am-john-mcdonnell-11-30am-michael-gove-4-30pm-xr-families-the-treasury/.
Labour MP Ed Miliband, he who gave the UK the Climate Change Act, is hand in glove with XR. The Institute for Public Policy Research is a Labour Think Tank and in April this year they launched the IPPR Environmental Justice Commission. Miliband and Caroline Lucas of the Green Party, are co-founders. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/30/green-new-deal-climate-change-social-transformation
They have a group of “Commissioners”:
https://www.ippr.org/environment-and-justice/commissioners/
One of their “commissioners” is Farhana Yamin, Associate Fellow at Chatham House, founder Track 0 and Extinction Rebellion activist. “An internationally recognised environmental lawyer, climate change and development policy expert, Farhana has advised leaders and countries for 20 years.
In addition to founding Track 0, https://track0.org/ (includes European Climate Foundation as one of its supporters, also Rockefeller Foundation, Prince of Wales Corporate Leaders Group and other well known leftist groups and funders, https://track0.org/about/partners-supporters/ ), she is an associate fellow at Chatham House, a visiting professor at University College London and a member of the Global Agenda Council on Climate Change at the World Economic Forum, (the Davos crowd).
The Board of Trustees for the WEF includes Al Gore, Mark Carney of the Bank of England and Christine Lagarde, now head of the European Central Bank. . https://www.weforum.org/about/leadership-and-governance
Yamin is lead author for three assessment reports for the IPCC on adaptation and mitigation issues. [She is not a scientist but contributes to reports that are described as by “the world’s top scientists”]. She continues to provide legal, strategy and policy advice to NGOs, foundations and developing nations on international climate change negotiations under the UNFCCC.”
XR co-founder and Corbyn supporter Gail Bradbrooke has a long association with them: https://www.ippr.org/files/uploadedFiles/research/projects/Digital_Society/gail_bradbrook_speech.pdf.
There is some background on Bradbrooke here, https://nowhere.news/index.php/author/un-extinction/
https://nowhere.news/index.php/2019/04/01/dr-gail-marie-bradbrook-compassionate-revolutionary-for-hire/
“Gail epitomises the new generation of ‘professional activists’, having positioned herself at the epicentre of the revolving door between big business, government bureaucracies and establishment-friendly NGOs, campaign groups and charitable organisations, all of which increasingly function as the public face of international corporate and financial power. The fact of the matter is, Dr Gail Bradbrook is one of the UK State’s go-to ‘experts’, chosen to give (the right kind of) evidence at various parliamentary hearings and committees.
Before she was engaged in (pre-approved) rabble rousing, or pretending to glue herself to the Department of Energy Headquarters, Gail was more likely to be found attending meetings held under Chatham House Rules, sat alongside people like Anthony Walker, former communications officer for the American Chamber of Commerce, who previously worked for the European Commission’s PR firm Rowland Company (owned by Saatchi & Saatchi).”
https://nowhere.news/index.php/2019/04/06/political-charities-and-the-brave-new-world-of-professional-activism/
It is clear that XR is no spontaneous arising of concerned citizens, although many of those who support them will believe their message. XR’s costumes, their banners, their material, are all professionally produced and they are being funded to lobby government, which in turn will say it is responding to public concerns, when they introduce ever more draconian energy control measures, as with Theresa May’s orders that tightened the noose around the economy with more and more ambitious “carbon reduction.”
There will be much gesture politics next year when the UN circus comes to Glasgow, with thousands of delegates flying in from around the world, telling the rest of us not to fly.
Unfortunately, the UK is unlikely to pull out at the last minute and re-direct delegates to the opposite hemisphere.
Good research feller.
dennisambler
And the UK the first country in the world to roll over for extinction rebellion and announce they will organise a citizens assembly.
Yet that same parliament couldn’t organise to have Britain leave a simple trading bloc.
Our politicians are certifiably insane.
Suggest everyone re-read this – the extremists’ plan is the same for Canada, the USA, the UK, and … … a so-called socialist dictatorship – but really an absolute monarchy – King Justin on top, supported by a corrupt military, with lots of peasants to serve them.
THE LIBERALS’ COVERT GREEN PLAN FOR CANADA – POVERTY AND DICTATORSHIP
by Allan M.R. MacRae, B.A.Sc., M.Eng., October 1, 2019
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/10/01/the-liberals-covert-green-plan-for-canada-poverty-and-dictatorship/
TRUDEAU’S ZERO-CARBON PLEDGE MEANS, EXCEPT FOR HIS ELITE:
NO PRIVATE CARS OR TRUCKS; NO AIRPLANE FLIGHTS; NO MEAT.
Proof: “CLIMATE CHANGE: BIG LIFESTYLE CHANGES ‘NEEDED TO CUT EMISSIONS’- DEFRA CHIEF SCIENTIST”, BBC News, August 29, 2019
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49499521
Zero-carbon means huge changes for society. Prof Sir Ian Boyd, the government’s chief environment scientist, said the public had little idea of the scale of the challenge from Britain’s “Net Zero CO2” emissions target.
“People must use less transport, eat less red meat and buy fewer clothes if the UK is to virtually halt greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, the government’s chief environment scientist has warned.
Sir Ian Boyd has lifted the lid on the reality of the programme. We will all have to accept big lifestyle changes – travel less, eat less, consume less.
But eventually some form of compulsion or rationing will be necessary, if climate targets are to be met.
The Science and Technology Select Committee let the cat out of the bag last week, when they officially announced “In the long-term, widespread personal vehicle ownership does not appear to be compatible with significant decarbonisation”.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49425402
If they did the same protest claiming that all blue-eyed people should be executed, where would they be? With no cogent argument behind their radical position, one they can clearly state, they fail form the beginning.
As there is no cogent support for the idea that a trace gas can drive the climate, these people have absolutely no standing.
Boris Johnson simply cannot afford to be distracted by coming down hard on the rebellion at this point of time – or ignoring it. With all the Brexit kerfuffle going on, he simply has to placate the rebels for a while. His government’s contribution towards a conference is a cheap way of achieving peace on that front – for a while.
I remember when David Cameron was running for Prime Minister, I heard Conservative association members arguing that Cameron was really a sound Conservative, and all the pandering to the green left was just a ploy to beat Labour. Their argument was since the opponents use dirty tricks to win elections, the Conservatives have to use dirty tricks to stay in the game.
No I think that he and the conservatives believe in this and are competing to be the green party in this election. The right in the UK do not support climate realism if you write a letter to them about this then a green (civil servant) advisor will send a reply to you.
A decade ago things were very different. In 2005, during the leadership challenge, then leadership candidate David Cameron’s promotion of green policies upset a lot of traditional Conservatives, who saw such ideas as thinly veiled big state socialism. Some of Cameron’s supporters cleverly deflected this outrage by spreading the claim that Cameron’s green policy initiatives were all just a trick to convince swing voters to support the Conservatives.
I am in the UK these last three months at a university. In general, for perspective, I am an American libertarian. What I see all around me in the university setting, but also in reading daily papers, is that the intellectual class has taken on belief in imminent catastrophic climate change as uniformly as 18th century England believed in Christianity. It is public religion. Disagreement is scowled at as heresy. To be sure, there are sects within the green movement.
Indeed, there are doctrinal disagreements about this or that detail, but the fundamental faith is powerful. It is said to see a land that brought liberal and rational thinking to the fore in the Age of Enlightenment to now succumb to fully to environmental religiosity. It is Orwell’s “groupthink” demonstrated.
kwinterkorn
Seek out the sceptics.
As far as I can tell from this side of the Atlantic, there is no party with any hope of electing any MPs that has a manifesto in the least critical of Greenchurch pieties.
That might change if the Brexit Party’s demand for replacing first-past-the-post with proportional representation could ever become reality, but obviously that pipe dream will never happen when both the Tories and Labour oppose it.
The conservatives are not to the right. David Cameron declared that he was leading a progressive party. That’s left wing. Gove is a Green supporter. They are all half witted career politicians who have no ability to think critically.
It wont work they the rebels will just come back next year or the year after that, if they are allowed to be elected again, and stop us leaving the EU by using the courts again.
It’s not. “Tens of thousands invited to take part in citizens’ assembly to help tackle climate crisis”
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-crisis-peoples-assembly-extinction-rebellion-protests-a9181241.html
This cannot end well!
These people are already violent; what will happen when the government “listens” to their insane, impossible proposals and then does not implement them?
1. Just who will choose the “experts”?
2. Who in the British Isles “have lived experience” (of Climate Change supposedly)? Some one who experienced one of those annual weather extremes that have happened since recorded time?
In addition to the story of someone who has recently experienced weather, who is going to specifically describe to the “citizen assembly” exactly what their 24 hour living experience will be like in 2025 after the ER has implemented Sarah’s rationing and elimination of every day luxuries and conveniences?
Let’s say they achieve the impossible and “refocus” British industry and the standard of living of all it’s citizens and get to 0 “carbon” by 2025; have any of their “experts” calculated the impact on global CO2 emissions, and more importantly global temperatures given the overwhelming planned emissions of India and China? (BTW those countries will gladly absorb all of that industry that has been “refocused” without batting an eye, thank you very much!) All this sacrifice in Britain for exactly what Global gain?
If you have a small fire, you don’t extinguish it by feeding it kindling. That is a great way to burn the whole house down!
Nope it’s happening it’s right across all parties
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50264797
Looks like Parliament just admitted that they don’t represent the people and they need to be replaced by an unelected body: “They would lead and advise government, and it then becomes very difficult for government to say we are not going to do this, because it has been requested by the people, by representatives of the people.”
Tricky thing that-relinquishing power.
Why not just dissolve Parliament and walk away en masse?
“Looks like Parliament just admitted that they don’t represent the people”
No, they did that months ago when they refused to leave the EU.
To be fair, tens of thousands of randomly-chosen Britons would represent the people much better than Parliament ever has.
But there is a trick : it is not “tens of thousands of randomly selected people”, it is 300 of those that will be selected by the NGO…
Yes – but it ain’t gonna be random! Going by the usual Socialist way of handling the ‘sheeple’, the organisers (self-chosen, of course) will hold meetings that go on and on and on, until people who have to WORK the next day give up and go home. Then, once the ‘meeting’ consists of ‘the committed’ the organisers can get them to vote on stuff that any normal working person would abhor. After all, that’s the way the unions and the Labour party worked in the 60’s and 70’s!
Barbee:
Some people wanting something does NOT mean Parliament has (or would) agree to it.
Indeed, when the UK Government recently attempted to impose its version of Brexit on the UK then Parliament and the Supreme Court both successfully defended the mixture of desires for Brexit which the public displayed in the Brexit Referendum.
The recently demonstrated reality that Parliament represents ALL the people – n.b. not only the desires of a few – applies to some interviewee on a radio programme as much as it applies to the government.
And before any far-right nutters jump in to say Parliament’s refusal of the government’s imposition was against the referendum result they should note that even Nigel Farage says the government’s desired version of Brexit “is not Brexit”.
Richard
Time for the army to wake up. If democracy is to be ditched then I prefer the armed forces over the XR rabble.
Ed Zuiderwijk:
HRH Elizabeth 2 wears the Crown at present. She is our Monarch and every member of Her Majesty’s armed forces swears allegiance to the Monarch.
In the extremely unlikely event that the XR rabble were to usurp Parliamentary democracy then I think we can rely on HRH to fulfil her duty with the same quiet and unassuming efficiency as she has every day since she ascended to the throne in 1952.
It is wise to not fall out with GCHQ, MI6, the SAS, and other agencies that answer to the Crown.
Richard
Prince Charles prince harry prince Andrew are all confessed global warmests,prince harry recently attended a exclusive gathering of film stars and the such, were amongst other things they debated what they could do about global warming,the royaltys role in military circles is honory only ,they make no decisions in any military action.be they actively deplored in the lower ranks or not,the queen has never interfered in any military capacity because she cant, you or anyone else can not look to the royal household for any saving of the nation,
The royals apart from the queen have made their intentions quite clear, in fact their probably financing XR in a indirect way.
B d Clark,
HRH Queen Elizabeth 2 wears the Crown because she alone is the Monarch, and each and every member of UK armed forces swears allegiance to the Crown and only the Crown. That is reality here in the UK.
What you think is “probably” is merely supposition from an anonymous internet pop-up.
If you want to discuss what may occur in the event that Charles mounts the throne then you can, but present reality is as I have stated.
Richard
Total farcical rubbish,you cant even address all my points,
B d Clark,
I stated Constitutional reality and everybody can see I refuted all your relevant points.
Now have your ‘last word’: I shall ignore it.
Richard
You never replied to 90% of my rebuttal of your leading post, the queen is the leader of the armed forces in name only, unless there is out right war any military action is signed off by the prime minister even in the event of out right war the prime minister instructs the queen to declare war, she has no power to instigate war.
HRH Queen Elizabeth 2 wears the Crown because she alone is the Monarch
For how much longer, Richard? She’s in her 90s. With the best will in the world, she doesn’t have many years left on the throne and then it’s Chuckles turn as being the lone Monarch.
John Endicott,
Thank you for your sensible comment.
As I said to B d Clark,
“If you want to discuss what may occur in the event that Charles mounts the throne then you can, but present reality is as I have stated.”
Unfortunately, Clark ignored that invitation preferring to display his ignorance instead.
As you say, HRH is very old. Her Consort has retired and it has to be assumed that she will leave the throne before long. Charles will elevate to the throne immediately upon HRH vacating it.
Charles is completely in the thrall of his neighbour, Jonathon Porrit, who is an evangelising environmentalist; see https://wiki2.org/en/Jonathon_Porritt
Having spent his entire adult life awaiting the job for which he was trained, Charles needed a roll and Porritt’s environmentalism has provided it. We have been fortunate to have had so competent a monarch as HRH Elizabeth 2 for so long. The reality that she will be replaced by Charles must be a cause for concern.
I have no fears that if necessary our Queen would act to stop our Parliamentary democracy being usurped but nobody can know how Charles will wear the Crown.
Richard
you really are something arent you Richard you imagine the queen or who ever sits on the throne has power they have nothing they just endorse what there told to say .
B d Clark,
Your ignorant and misinformed drivel is becoming annoying.
The Prime Minister has a weekly meeting with the Monarch (usually on a Tuesday) and that would have ended long ago if the Monarch were as powerless as you pretend to yourself.
The Monarch appoints the Prime Minister.
This is usually a simple matter because the Monarch usually appoints the Leader of a majority of the Commons. However, in 1970 the Queen took more than a week to decide to appoint Harold Wilson as Prime Minister of a minority government following no political party having gained a majority in the General Election and Ted Heath having said he wanted to remain as Prime Minister.
In effect, the Monarch has a practical veto on actions of Parliament.
Each bill passed by both Houses of Parliament must obtain the Royal Assent if it is to become law. Prior to a Session of Parliament the government provides the Monarch with a draft speech which relates the actions the government wants to take in the Session. The Monarch assisted by her personally selected advisors then decides the matters she agrees in the speech and deletes the rest. Thus, she decides the Queen’s Speech. At the State Opening of Parliament she reads out the Queen’s Speech. The government then usually drops any plans that were in its draft but not in the Queen’s Speech because there is no point wasting Parliamentary time discussing things that will not obtain the Royal Assent. However, two Bills that did not obtain Royal Assent were passed by Parliament in the twentieth century: both pertained to possible abolition of the House of Lords.
The Monarch has the authority to decide when the UK goes to war.
This authority was devolved to the government during the Cold War because a nuclear attack may have only had a four minute warning. That devolved power still exists, but it is only devolved from the Monarch as a ‘gift’ of the Monarch who retains the overall authority to declare war.
Our Constitutional Parliamentary Monarchy is a result of a thousand years of history.
Everyone in the UK is governed by the Rule Of Law which protects everyone from mob rule while giving representation to everyone.
Richard
You really are a Richard arent you, I have a meeting with my bank manager once a week it does not mean he controls my money
Have a read DIck any time you want to do battle youl need a bit more than a fanciful imagination of dungeons and dragons
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative
B d Clark,
I have too much self respect to want to “do battle” with an unarmed opponent such as yourself.
Richard
So let’s see dick you were told politely you were wrong,I gave dialogue why you were wrong,yet you persist no single link to any thing to back your claims ,yet I did here it is again https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative as you can see the queen has little to no powers,what you assume are powers are a trade off for to be seen have powers but with no substance, a ploy and agreement with a early parliament to save face for a monarchy that had literally been defrocked, and you dick 400 years later have not wised up to basic English history and deception , that’s why you dont quote my links dick and provide any evidence of your own,the best you can do is act like a global warmest and throw insults.
B d Clark,
I gave you factual information that refuted your silly assertions.
You responded with rudeness, abuse and a challenge together with a link that does NOT support your untrue assertions.
I refused your challenge and I will ignore any more of your ignorant and abusive twaddle.
Richard
Ave a read dick educate yourself
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative
Friends,
For the record, I copy content of the trolls link to here. The links’ entire statements pertaining to the UK Monarch are these:
“United Kingdom
Main article: Royal prerogative in the United Kingdom
In the Kingdom of England (up to 1707), the Kingdom of Great Britain (1707–1800), and the United Kingdom (since 1801), the royal prerogative was one of the central features of the realm’s governance.
Constitutional theorist A. V. Dicey gives the standard definition of what prerogative powers as follows:
… the remaining portion of the Crown’s original authority, and it is therefore … the name for the residue of discretionary power left at any moment in the hands of the Crown, whether such power be in fact exercised by the King himself or by his Ministers.[10]
The scope of the royal prerogative is difficult to determine due to the uncodified nature of the constitution. It is clear that the existence and extent of the power is a matter of the common law of England, making the courts the final arbiter of whether a particular type of prerogative exists or not. Nevertheless, certain prerogative powers have been widely acknowledged and accepted over time, while others have fallen out of use.
The royal prerogative is not constitutionally unlimited. In the Case of Proclamations (1611) during the reign of King James VI/I, English common law courts judges emphatically asserted that they possessed the right to determine the limits of the royal prerogative. Since the Glorious Revolution in 1688, which brought co-monarchs Queen Mary II and King William III to power, this interpretation of there being a separate and distinct power of the Judiciary has not been challenged by the Crown. It has been accepted that it is emphatically the province of the court(s) to say what the law is, or means. This is a crucial corollary and foundation to the concept of the judicial power; and its distinct and separate nature from the executive power possessed by the Crown itself, or its ministers.”
I point out that the the trolls link directly refutes the trolls assertion that,
“the queen has little to no powers”.
when it says,
“The scope of the royal prerogative is difficult to determine due to the uncodified nature of the constitution.”
and
” certain prerogative powers have been widely acknowledged and accepted over time, while others have fallen out of use.”
Importantly, the ONLY statement in the troll’s link which pertains to any part of my explanation of the specific Powers of the UK Monarch says,
“It is clear that the existence and extent of the power is a matter of the common law of England, making the courts the final arbiter of whether a particular type of prerogative exists or not. Nevertheless, certain prerogative powers have been widely acknowledged and accepted over time, while others have fallen out of use.”
This agrees with the concluding point in my explanation which said,
“Our Constitutional Parliamentary Monarchy is a result of a thousand years of history.
Everyone in the UK is governed by the Rule Of Law which protects everyone from mob rule while giving representation to everyone.”
Richard
Well done dick you just blew your first post out of the water and verified what I said .if the queen had powers numbnuts the parliament would not need to ask a court to rule on some ancient law, and dick what you reproduced had nothing to do with my link here it is againhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative
Friends,
One mouse click will reveal that I copied and pasted ALL of the correct passage from the troll’s link. The copied passage directly refutes the troll’s assertions and it does not contradict any of the facts I have provided.
Richard
Dick the crown is granted powers through parliament not by it’s own design see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative a bit you failed to explain. the queen can not go to war or instigate war she can only announce we are at war after being told by parliament to do so parliament makes the decision not the queen your original point right the queen will go to war ,not only are you wrong the queen can not mobilise eg the SAS another one of your original points , you some how think the queen is willing to start a civil war be commanding the armed forces,get a grip dick these XR clowns are at best children playing at terrorists,.
B d Clark,
I do not dispute anything in the link which you have repeatedly provided..
I write to ask why you are contradicting the link you have provided.
You say,
“the crown is granted powers through parliament not by it’s own design see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative “.
But your link does NOT mention UK Parliament; n.b. no mention of Parliament, none, not any.
Your link rightly says – as I said – the Royal powers are limited by the “judiciary”; i.e. it says,
“Since the Glorious Revolution in 1688, which brought co-monarchs Queen Mary II and King William III to power, this interpretation of there being a separate and distinct power of the Judiciary has not been challenged by the Crown. It has been accepted that it is emphatically the province of the court(s) to say what the law is, or means. This is a crucial corollary and foundation to the concept of the judicial power; and its distinct and separate nature from the executive power possessed by the Crown itself, or its ministers.”
Why have you repeatedly posted your link that I agree and you say is wrong?
Richard
Ah dick is now trying trolling tactics the very thing you accuse me of,dick has also said twice he would not respond again theres just no end to your contradictions hey dick royalty have no power, there infested with global warmests there not going to save you dick there going to cripple you.
But your link does NOT mention UK Parliament; n.b. no mention of Parliament, none, not any.
Richard, your selective reading missed out huge chunks of the article, I suggest you read the part under “evolution” where the word Parliament appears several times (and specifically in reference to the UK).
Friends,
I remind that this thread was started by Ed Zuiderwijk who wrote,
“Time for the army to wake up. If democracy is to be ditched then I prefer the armed forces over the XR rabble.”
In my reply to him I wrote,
“In the extremely unlikely event that the XR rabble were to usurp Parliamentary democracy then I think we can rely on HRH to fulfil her duty with the same quiet and unassuming efficiency as she has every day since she ascended to the throne in 1952.”
And I pointed out,
“It is wise to not fall out with GCHQ, MI6, the SAS, and other agencies that answer to the Crown.”
Clearly, effective actions by the mentioned agencies would not be noticed except by those on the receiving end.
Anybody who thinks I was suggesting HRH would or should start a civil war is out of his tiny mind.
Richard
Hahaha ya dick the SAS go out and shoot the rabble and no one notices unless you think there going round under cover to threaten them over a cup of tea ,talking of tea dick it’s time you chilled out with one your clearly upset .
Friends,
The dimwit trolling this thread posted a link which I agree but the troll disputes.
In attempt to distract from that fact, the troll has said he thinks my comment saying,
“In the extremely unlikely event that the XR rabble were to usurp Parliamentary democracy then I think we can rely on HRH to fulfil her duty with the same quiet and unassuming efficiency as she has every day since she ascended to the throne in 1952”
means
“the SAS go out and shoot the rabble”.
It is astonishing that anybody – even someone with so clear a mental disability as the troll – could think that!
Richard
Ah dick so part quotes now dick we must add desperate to the list, so il ask again in the fictitious event of the queen sending out the SAS your scenario dick what exactly do you expect them to do ?
B d Clark,
What is your real name and who is paying you to conduct your inane disruption?
Richard
So still not answering the question put to you dick, just exactly what did you envisage the SAS being used for dick, why do you avoid the question dick?you do understand what the SAS are do you dick, you do understand dick the queen has no powers dick , if she tried to do something against customary practice dick the courts let alone parliament would over rule her dick.
Moderators,
I have twice checked if the troll is really someone called “B d Clark” or is posting under an alias. It is clear that the troll is using a false identity.
I think I know the true identity of the troll, and if I am right he has been banned from WUWT for misbehaviour but has used a series of false identities to repeatedly return to WUWT with the sole purpose of disrupting sensible discussion.
I know how busy you are doing your difficult job so well, but if you have time I think it would be good if the identity of the troll could be checked.
Richard
What’s wrong dick you accuse me of being a troll I have on topic disagreed with you and given my reasons that’s not trolling dick, now you accuse me of not using my real name and you have checked,checked were dick ?
My name is my user name here dick my email is the same, if you cant stand debate dick perhaps this open forum is not the place for you.
‘Fraid not, John. Boris and the guy who pulls his strings will do anything for votes, even wreck Britain!
They are bloody serious, bloody dangerous and should be stopped at all cost.
The co-founder of Extinction Rebellion writes that the climate protest “isn’t about the climate” and is actually about toppling European civilisation and ending the idea that heterosexuality is “normal.”
https://medium.com/@plaosmos/extinction-rebellion-isnt-about-the-climate-42a0a73d9d49
Stop The Morons Now!
If you have to reach for a gun to get your way, you’re already wrong. The reason the collectivists want to take your guns is that they couldn’t do to you what they want to do if you’re armed. ER’s rep just proved that.
The first rule totalitarianism is to disarm the people, that way they can’t fight back against the impending tyrany! Orwell had great foresight!
“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” – Isaac Asimov
It is ironic that they block traffic so that people are forced to sit stationary in there cars, burning CO2.
Yeppers, Mike. That one always gets me.
“We’re going to force you to emit more CO2 so we can reduce CO2 emissions.”
Joe and Jane Q. Public recognize stupid when it stares them in the face. They also resent being inconvenienced for a problem that they don’t see.
Joe & Jane: Yeah, yeah… apocalypse today film at 11:00, oceans rising at a terrifying rate, garden burned to a crisp, ice free Arctic… if you say so. Masses of people escaping unbearable heat while wildlife drops in their tracks anywhere and everywhere…. ummmmm, no. Not seeing it. Today looks much the same as yesterday and the boss still wants that report by next Thursday.”
If XR persists in disrupting the day-to-day existence of the vast majority of the public that are just going about the daily business of their mundane lives, which puts food on the table, a roof over their heads, and the odd relaxing or diversionary holiday here and there that gives them a bit of respite, I think XR will soon experience more and worse than the minor backlash of the recent train station incident.
It’s not cute. It’s not funny. It is p!$$ing people off.
They need to get some diesel 4x4s to back up to their blocked intersections and rev their engines belching noxious black smoke in their faces.
With a big banner that says BLACK SMOKE MATTERS!
I think a couple of combines fitted with bean heads would clear the way pronto.
The BS is unreal .One thing needs to be sorted right now and that is stop cutting trees down to grow stuf we don’t need. When trees are cut down plant more as they do in certain parts of the world. Why are we not using caption which is available this produces fuel that can be used in all vehicle but with no detrimental effects from it you dont have to buy a new whicle. More Stop the belief that you have to have debt live within your means stop buying stuff you don’t need shop when you need to buy.
Same old nonsense from theses sort of fanatical people They have no idea. When people are up in court because they haven’t paid there council tax and you say it’s ER it’s the new policy I am unable to earn the money I used to it will be 30 days send them down they will also be reprocessing your house because you can’t pay your mortgage where does it end. ER dictating its our way and no other way it will be the same old story not allowed to do or have the things you used to but certain people you will find will still have because it’s ok for them. Rashioning no that’s a good one heard it all now .I hear switch to electric vehicles more jobs lost but more people in debt which to me is what this is all about. No sorry I am not going to be bullied by anyone
You don’t negotiate with terrorists unless they really inconvenience you.
Wow …Sarah is not even a maroon .
Maybe she is becoming more acidic ?
😉
If, by their own admission, they broke the law, why aren’t they in jail?
What ER doesn’t get is that people don’t necessarily agree with their cause in the first place. That is, depending on how you define it, there may not be an ‘ecological emergency’ in the first place. Plants like C02, the world has been warmer before with no disasters, etc etc.
People-as in citizens -are often very skeptical of what a collection of academics are saying, and they have good cause to be, there are numerous historical examples of one-sided academics getting things wrong, or more often, just wildly over-stated their particular angle.
So, there is a stand-off between ER, and what most people are skeptical about. ER thinks the only way to solve this is to then change the rules, driven by being certain about something where others are not. This has been tried before numerous times, it won’t work.
Aristotle would have said to ER that the first thing to recognize is what one doesn’t know.
” the British Conservative Government has just agreed Extinction Rebellion’s demand to form a climate change citizen’s assembly. ”
Boris Johnson is so desperate for votes to stay in power he is willing to agree to anything, he’s already pledged £billions that we haven’t got, on things that will never happen, but then look at his record… a liar a cheat, a bullyboy.
Boris is certainly not covering himself with glory.
Yes even this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50267454
Yet on the other paw they announce this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-50274212
I thought the UK had a citizens assembly. I think it is called the House of Commons.
Exactly! Her last paragraph gives you a clue what they really mean, and it isn’t democratic.
Translation: Extinction Rebellion: “We represent the people whether they want us to or not!”
“Sarah: They would lead and advise government, and it then becomes very difficult for government to say we are not going to do this, because it has been requested by the people, by representatives of the people.”
Who chooses these “representatives, do we hold a vote?
No, they don’t trust us to vote “correctly.”
I find it frankly very offensive that she compares this to 1939 and the fight against a true existential threat.. I hope the ghosts of the millions who died in that conflict come back to haunt her and her ilk..
I’m starting a new group Extinction Rebellion Extinction.. anyone care to join?
Me!!!
Berndt Koch
I’m in!!!
#MeToo
Hell yes!
I thought fascism was bad.
Holy moly, I read the link in that last paragraph. Britain is actually going forward with a citizens’ assembly to discuss how to destroy Britain’s economy and society. The only hope I can see is that the assembly’s recommendations will be so destructive and extreme that the population will reject them and the whole “climate emergency” narrative once and for all.
The farmers won a small battle a month ago forcing a rewilding campaign out, yet again this very night a counter measure is announced https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-50169027 all the links I’ve reproduced tonight came out tonight on the left wing rag the BBC ready for the Sunday readers,
What we are seeing live is a orchestrated attack on our democracy ,well planned ahead there two steps in front we are being relentlessly bombarded with this takeover every single angle has been covered from the media to politics climate change is a means to a ends ,its not about the climate its about destroying your way of life.
I suspect Parliament will let them have their assembly – at the taxpayers’ expense, of course – then simply ignore their input. The correct response will be, stand for Parliament. if the people want that course of action, you will be elected and get your way. There is no ‘controlling authority’ for them to force government to do anything as long as they don’t represent the majority of voters.
More than likely, they will be quite happy being a powerless group as long as they are living well off the taxpayers. And I bet they fly to a lot of off-site meetings in sunny locations.
Some people think abortion is homicide & their biological arguments are a lot stronger than catastrophic anthropogenic global warming. Do they get to have a “Citizens Assembly” if they cannot persuade people at the polls?
Listen to Greta s rant on this video she’s telling you exactly what this article is about, she’s been primed to threaten you, listen to the politics identify the corporations with left wing connections
https://youtu.be/femv1Kuw6JM
Its what the Irish did in terms of their abortion question, which was very controversial…
The wicked solution is a controversial policy. Even more than diversity (i.e. color judgment), political congruence or selective exclusion, and other classes of bigotry that have been normalized in liberal societies.
I am once again reminded of Winston Churchill’s famous quote:
“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.”
― Winston S. Churchill
Other quotes about appeasement here:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/appeasement
I am reminded of another Winston Churchill quote: “the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter”
Or a three minute conversation with the average elected official.
This just typifies Churchill IMO. He thought he was above the “average voter”. Well, he was a product of the ruling elite so no surprise there. It took him the 10 years or so up to just before WW2 to work out why he failed so badly at politics.
“30,000 invitations will be sent at random, then 110 of the respondents will be chosen to sit on the assembly”
A “chosen” 110 out of 30,000 “invitations” sent at “random” to represent the wishes of 65 million and then “advise” Govn’t?
What could possibly go wrong there?
Who chooses the 110?
And out of the 30 000 people, those who aren’t interested in green policies won’t answer. Those who don’t think there’s a climate emergency won’t want to waste four weekends on this assembly. Only people who already believe the ER’s claims will answer the invitation, thus only alarmists will sit on the citizen’s assembly.
You’re probably correct that the “randomly-selected” will respond disproportionately based on whether they sympathize with XR. But in my cynical view, the initial lists will likely also be suspect (maybe derived from XR membership and donor rolls?). Or perhaps the final selection process will be based on whether the candidate is “knowledgeable” about the risks of climate change—meaning that they must be faithful congregants in the Greenchurch.
As an American with a mostly British heritage, I take considerable interest in UK politics. It is very sad to see the state of affairs in the mother country. No doubt this ersatz parliament of fools will be treated as sacrosanct by the rabid media. How dare the government ignore the voice of the people? This will be expressed without a scintilla of irony, probably immediately after reporting joyfully that the other parliament of fools has again successfully thwarted the Brexit referendum. Sad, truly.
Christina Widmann
Not if I get an invitation.
And faced with a bunch of alarmists, there will be trouble.
You’re right on, Patrick. This was the basic process that got to the famous (notorious?) 97% number.
They say insanity is doing same thing (relinquishing parliamentary procedure) over and over and expecting the same result. Doing it 30,000 times, based on irrational thinking and hysterical ranting only amplifies the inane premise and then legislates malfeasant governance.
“with the expectation of a different result” I believe is the quote
Patrick MJD, WSC represented working class electorates most of his long career. The problem was Pollies were self-serving like the current mob. I noticed the similarity to his time in the wilderness, and also the voices in the wilderness then and now.
Once again, reckoning is beckoning at last, and it is called Nigel, I hope…….. Brett in NZ
Nigel Farage? He’s the guy who says the EU is a waste of space, and yet, he was an “elected” MEP? Really? And says the EU, his elite, is a waste?
Yup! That is Churchill all over.
Patrick MJD
Have you ever watched videos of NF’s in the EU parliament?
He’s like a rabid attack dog, including the infamous “You’re not laughing now!” in 2016 following the Brexit referendum vote.
Clearly, you don’t understand UK politics.
“HotScot November 4, 2019 at 5:28 am
Patrick MJD
Have you ever watched videos of NF’s in the EU parliament?”
No, not those videos however, I have seen his videos about the EU Parliament where he states its a waste of time, even though he was “elected” to be an MEP, has no real power and every month the whole EU Parliament in Brussels gets trucked to Strasbourg, and then trucked back again. The EU Commission on the other hand has the power to control member states, is not elected and cannot be disbanded.
Well hmm a bit brief in your explanation the eu parliament is handed down what to put into law from the commision as you rightly stated, but it is not under obligation to legislate the commission’s directive ,it has equal footing with the EU council, and can interestingly cause the EU commission to resign, now theres a thought.
“B d Clark November 4, 2019 at 3:18 pm”
Never going to happen in the current structure. Brexit will bring about an “adjustment”.
He didn’t represent working class, that’s why he failed and took a 10 year “sabatical”
Patrick MJD
Along with Thatcher, the most internationally celebrated PM Britain has ever had, and you dismiss him because he went back into the Army operating in combat regions.
What Labour MP has ever left politics to return to combat zones?
I’ll tell you……None!
socialism is a disease.
Common misconceptions about famous people throughout history. You have to study the man rather than listen to commentary or the media. He left politics because he failed in politics. It took him 10 years to work out why. He never was in the army to go back to. He was in the Admiralty before and during WW1, a supporter of the “feeble minded” people’s act of 1913 (In his view, if people didn’t want to fight in a war they were of “feeble minds” and should be sent to “labour camps”) and eugenics. You can actually go and visit where he spent most of those 10 years before WW2 in his old stately home.
Many many famous people that were held high in public opinion, people such as John Lennon and Mother Theresa. John Lennon was pretty nasty to women and hated his son. Mother Theresa, a Saint, the helper of the poor when in fact she didn’t care one hoot about poor people, she was all about the Church and it’s promotion.
“Farage: An appointed citizen’s assembly would tell government what to do?
Sarah: They would lead and advise government, and it then becomes very difficult for government to say we are not going to do this, because it has been requested by the people, by representatives of the people.”
Now, I know the Brits system is different than the US; however, they do have elections and it is considered a representative form of government. Sooooo, the way I read this and I could be wrong, the Extinction Rebellion wants to have the current REPRESENTATIVES, to be commanded by a “citizens assembly” that is supposedly to be the actual REPRESENTATIVES of the people.
Let me get this straight; the duly elected Representatives of the People, will be lead and advised by un-elected and unaccountable Representatives of the People, who according to the XR, ACTUALLY are the TRUE voice of the people.
OMFG…When did Monty Python start running the show?
An XR committee is the definition of a ‘Soviet:’ a People’s Committee. I thought we got rid of those types in 1989 when the wall came down and the USSR collapsed.
When I was on a plane to England years ago after the fall of the wall, since I knew Polish and Russian, I was privy to a conversation of a group of university teachers talking in Russian about how they’re going to spread communism around the world at the university level. I asked them what their justification was for such a heinous scheme, and their answer was, “In time communism will prevail around the world whether you like it or not.” That’s when I started to worry about the young people in our school system; it’s getting very scary out there!
And happen when this “Citizens Assembly” does no do what the XR leadership wants? Will dissenting voices be heard? Who gets to decide who is in the Assembly? How are members removed? How are members replaced? So many questions…
Off with their heads!
Indeed… I believe the last time they had large-scale “citizen’s committees”, it led to the Reign of Terror. This will likely end in a similar manner.
Extinction Rebellion has been nowhere near ’round my usual haunts.
I am hoping beyond hope that does not remain the case
Should they choose to grace my neighborhood, I am fully prepared to relieve myself on any unlucky XR idiot who deigns to glue him/her/itself to something in order to inconvenience me.
I’m retired and am unworried about any negative effects on my employment prospects. A few days in the pokey might afford me the opportunity to expand my skills in areas such as hot wiring cars or jimmying windows and doors. A “Public Indecency” conviction would be a badge of honor if I received it while “inconveniencing” an XR useful idiot.
Sadly there are plenty of them in our village- they’ve taken over the local magazine, telling everyone how to make non toxic cleaning products at home, using electric bikes, green energy, etc. There’s no talking to them. They’re on a mission from God, as it were. I’m still waiting for an answer to the question; ‘If the cleaning product is non toxic, how the hell does it clean anything?’ So far, all I’ve had is grief…..
Kinda speaks for itself….
The citizens thing is a PR excercise and has very little to do with XR, they won’t get to decide anything. Unfortunately this country is going through a green crisis and there isn’t a massive amount of advantage to push against it as part of an election manifesto. Brexit has to be the main issue at this election and all other areas are merely sweeteners to different factions.
Farage is about to go from hero to zero because he’s threatening to open a gap for Labour or should I say the Communist Party to take power because he wants a purist Brexit. Unfortunately the ‘no deal’ Brexit opportunity is gone. There are only two options, reverse Brexit altogether or take the Tory’s deal, which while not ideal, would be a stepping stone to real Brexit. Farage says otherwise but he’s… motivated and not in a good way it seems.
Farage was key to the Tories offering a referendum because they were scared of UKIP – Farage’s first Brexit party, but it would never have happened without the Tories themselves. UKIP would never have got enough votes to get into power. The Tory party has been riven apart by Brexiteers and Remainers and unfortunately in Parliament and other places of power the Remainers have outnumbered the Brexiteers. The Remainers have had a big hand in almost wrecking Brexit but now it’s Nigel’s turn. While under May, who was just too cowardly and inept to be leader during such a tricky time, there was a taste for a new direction and the Brexit Party was born almost overnight. I voted for them in the EU elections, an event notorious for being an opportunity for the public to protest. It was a massive success. Had May still been at the head of the Conservatives, I would be seriously considering them for any upcoming General Election. However, Boris got the job of PM and has done a credible negotiation given that he has no control over Parliament because first May lost MPs at the last election and then Remainer Tories thought they could wreck Brexit by teaming up with other parties. They legally removed ‘no deal’ from the table. Every plan that went through Parliament for stuff bolted on to give Boris less and less power. Most of the Tory Remoaners have now jumped ship or been pushed. However without a decent majority in the up coming election Boris can’t get any kind of Brexit done anyway. If they don’t get a majority at all and there are no partners to team up with * then the next largest party gets to try and form a government. A rainbow of parties who are not only determined to kill Brexit but to turn us into a failed, communist green state. Labour, the SNP (which wants another chance to split off from the UK and rejoin the EU), the Lib Dems and the Greens. The UK would not only not get Brexit, it would never be able to afford it. Anyone even mentioning the idea of a new attempt at leaving the EU would get punched.
* Nigel has set out his plan to be the king maker after the election, offering the Tories The Brexit Party MPs’ support in Parliament (assuming they get any) and not fielding candidates in seats the Tories can win. All that in exchange for certain demands – first drop the Brexit transition deal (it’s not a trade deal) and then step aside in seats the Tories would be unlikely to win. There are several problems with this ultimatum. It assumes that the 52% who voted for Brexit want ‘no deal’ and that’s just not true. It assumes that the people who voted for the Brexit Party in the EU elections want the Brexit Party running the country and that they all want ‘no deal’ which are also not true.
A lot of support for the Tories relies on the deal Boris made, both to reassure the soft Brexiteers and tempt the soft Remainers. The Tories would lose as much by dropping the deal as they gained from the Brexit Party pact. Unlike a pact made after an election where you give concessions to MPs of another party for their support, Nigel wants the Tories to make the deal before the Brexit Party has won anything.
The UK system in a general election is called first past the post. The country is divided into roughly equal bundles of people. The party with the most votes in an area wins the seat. The party with more than half the seats in the country wins the election. The two main parties dominate England with vastly more seats than the other regions. The SNP dominate Scotland but Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories sometimes win seats. Northern Ireland has its own parties and Wales is a bit of a mix. It’s possible for a party like the Brexit Party to get 15% of the votes but not win a single seat. See UKIP. Farage may object to this but it’s our system and when we had a referendum on the issue we voted to keep it. He’s the guy who thinks we should respect referendums. I support the FPTP system because it gives the leading party the chance to make radical changes. Farage and even the Brexit Party just doesn’t have that much support.
Bottom line, the Tories can’t do a deal with Farage. Especially since Nigel made such a thing about it, and involved Trump, they absolutely can’t. Outside interference, even by friendly leaders is not appreciated. Obama helped Brexit by supporting Remain and threatening us with the ‘back of the queue’. Trashing Boris’ deal is a serious affront to the Tory Party. Why Farage has threatened and insulted the Tories I don’t know. He’s hinted that he’d prefer Labour to win, Brexit to be cancelled and seek power at the election in 5 years time, rather than accept Boris’ departure deal with the EU. He thinks that we’ll be ready for a real right wing party with a no deal Brexit. He’s dead wrong. This is Brexit’s last chance. We are pig sick of it. We’d also loath any party that helped get Labour into power. You cannot believe the things Corbyn is planning to do. You think the Tories are pro green? You ain’t seen nuttin’. Labour are planning to steal companies from their owners. They will make landlords sell their properties to renters at a knock down price. Air fares would double after the green taxes were added. Homeowners would be forced to make their homes green, including adding solar panels. All this will be funded by robbing from the rich… and then the middle and finally the poor. Billionaires are ready to shift all their money the moment Corbyn gets elected as PM. The country would crash financially. We would never recover. We’d bein a worse state than the one that caused us to join in the 70s. And Nigel is playing games over this? It would be like finding out Trump is planning to give the southern states to China so long as they built that wall.
With all that at stake, do you really think we give flip about some PR climate panels?
“Trashing Boris’ deal is a serious affront to the Tory Party.”
Boris’ deal is just May’s surrender agreement with some of the most egregious parts removed. It should be trashed.
“This is Brexit’s last chance. We are pig sick of it. ”
Then why support Boris’ deal, which is a never-ending Brexit?
Correct. May was “ushered” in to do exactly that when Cameron bottled!
Nigel’s new posters say that Boris’ deal will keep us in the EU for years. Note the wording, it doesn’t say ‘forever’. It might be as short as 1 year, it might be 3. I can wait 3 years. Heck, after May/Hammond’s lack of preps we’re not even entirely ready. I’d support anything rather than Corbyn. If we stay 5 years paying into the EU and Corbyn wrecking the economy till the next election £39 billion will be peanuts.
+1
I have waited 40 years (my entire adult life) to be able to vote on leaving the EU.
I can wait a few years longer if that’s what it takes to see it through. I could not support May’s deal, I can accept Boris’. The only hope for the UK is a Conservative majority. Anything else will be reversion to the 1970’s. Many voters are too young to remember what that was like.
Who cares who’s in Number 10 if Britain is just a minor province run from Brussels? What power would Corbyn actually have?
Britain will be in a much worse place than the 1970s if the government refuse to do what the British people vote for. Failure to leave the EU will utterly destroy any belief in democracy in half the population.
“MarkG November 3, 2019 at 9:34 am”
Most Brits, such as myself, have no faith in the “democratic” process because we have seen it been abused for decades, and certain as bold as brass, in your face blatant disrespect for democracy since at least 1973 in my memory.
“ThinkingScientist November 3, 2019 at 7:11 am
Anything else will be reversion to the 1970’s. Many voters are too young to remember what that was like.”
Many voters, including those on some sort of benefit, never got to experience what Britain was like in the late 60’s and the 70’s up to 1979. Apart from the very cold winters, which I liked BTW, there was the perpetual “industrial action”, strikes in pretty much all sectors from health to education to fire workers to car and power workers to refuse collection to morticians etc etc. I think “workers” were punch drunk on European socialism. The UK was practically bankrupt and still paying for WW2, bailing out the French. It’s ironic that the EU is in effect a Franco-German controlled entity anyway.
The deal keeps Britain under the thumb of the EU for at least a decade, while removing any control Britain has over the EU policies and diktats that it will still be forced to follow. And making it responsible for EU bank bailouts, which may cost hundreds of billions of pounds in that time. Plus, quite likely, for handing the British military over to Brussels.
It’s The Never-Ending Brexit. And it won’t end until the EU collapses.
Rubbish.
@MarkG
The current iteration of the withdrawal agreement sees us right out (implementation and all) in less than two years.
On bailing out the banks – no. Paragraph 52 of the notes to the agreement make it quite clear that “The Bill allows payments to be made only in order to meet financial commitments that are required by the Withdrawal Agreement. This finance authority (the agreement) cannot be used for payments relating to the future relationship between the UK and the EU. So no bailouts.
As for handing over the military (and I assume you are not being serious by this point) we will of course continue to work with (not for) EU countries in the face of international threats. However this would be the case whether in or out, and is not even mentioned in the Withdrawal Agreement. In fact our strongest military ties are with NATO and thus the USA rather than EU member states.
Tiny CO2
Sadly, that is a very clear and cogent analysis.
The Remainers have scotched any prospect of a proper Brexit so we can only go with Boris or lose Brexit and a lot more besides.
I approve of Farage up to now and am a keen supporter of a true Brexit but thanks to May and Hammond there is no longer any other option.
Farage needs to back off or he will be forever be labelled as a useful idiot leading to a Marxist takeover of the U.K.
I can’t understand what Farage is up to.
Farage is after seats , his party will not win but aim for a voice in parliament akin to the DUP.A unheard voice that can argue ,block some of this very dangerous left wing agenda.if we get this, we will have some resemblance to what a parliament should be, no more (the science is settled) no more biased speakers controlling parliament for left agendas. Get rid of and or stop secret lobbyists dictating policy sercumnavigating
what should be democratic decisions.
What happens if TBP plus the Tories aren’t enough to form a government? How powerful will TBP be if the Green Party gets to be Labour’s king maker?
How many constituencies voted out in the 2016 whatever the general political bias of a given constituency.if a given constituency was a labour seat and voted out,then the constituents would have a choice vote labour who obviously went against and hindered parliament to carry out their wish.how many seats would the Brexit party reasonably expect to gain in these constituencies, who at the present time has the biggest lead in the poles.
What % of the above let down constituencies will vote conservative to get some form of Brexit
What % of the above let down constituencies will vote for the Brexit party to get a full Brexit,
What we must remember is the referendum was advisory ,the advice was acted upon and made into law ,that law had no caveats, the whole political party system and government acted and do act against this law.
The people be them road sweepers to barristers know they have been cheated, some will agree with the cheating and vote accordingly the real question here is how many will vote against the blatant cheats =labour SNP PC the greens and liberal Democrats.
In my opinion the Cs will gain the majority of votes but be in a minority in parliament the FBP will take up the slack how much FBP take is debatable 12,20 seats will be crucial for FBP more and they will have considerable weight in any parliamentary votes, with a majority of centre right to right MPS we will see at the least the other side of the coin being played be it climate to exposing the left agenda takeover in this country. In my opinion.
How people voted in the Referendum and what they wanted isn’t necessarily clear cut. As you say, people feel let down and Brexit isn’t one sided. There are other issues too. It’s a dangerous game assuming the number of seats. It’s wishful thinking that TBP will have the whip hand. Maybe it will be the Lib Dems again, demanding a new referendum as their bargaining chip. After all, Nigel’s fans are saying that Boris and The Tories are really remainers. Wouldn’t such a group favour making a remainer part the boss over The Brexit Party? Boris would have 5 years to squat in the job. Or is he really a leaver who has got the best deal he could with the hand he was dealt?
I think the conservatives are the right wing party not the Brexit Party it is just that the conservative party have no interest in protecting manufacturing jobs in the UK and never have , they have allowed the North to become an industrial wasteland and just rely on creating service jobs. The Brexit Party want to help British manufacturing industry in the north in particular not to be destroyed completely by this parliaments drive for “carbon neutral energy”. Manufacturing industry faces the same threat in the UK as it does in the USA from climate alarmism it is just that in the UK that the areas hit hardest by this have been in traditional labour areas. We must not allow the conservatives in the UK to portray the Brexit Party as far right because then those who have lost out in the demise of UK manufacturing firstly by the conservatives and now by climate alarmism will not vote for the Brexit party.
I agree that the Tories have little interest in manufacturing jobs but the future of that is automation anyway. Low wage jobs will always be taken by people or countries who are prepared to work hard for less. Labour are worse, trying to cling onto the past. I sometimes wonder if they’d have miners dig out coal and another lot putting it back. With a fully propped open door policy.
The majority of current Brexit supporters are ex Labour and they meet the far right round the back as politics isn’t a line, it’s a sphere. That doesn’t mean that some if not many of their policies aren’t good ones but with zero chance of being in government, they might as well support a free pixie for everyone.
Maybe if they’d kept their heads down and won some Labour seats now, then built upon it over the next 5 years with by-elections and local elections, they could have had their no deal Brexit in 5-10 years. Now they’ll just go the way of UKIP.
“donald penman November 3, 2019 at 4:37 am
I think the conservatives are the right wing party not the Brexit Party it is just that the conservative party have no interest in protecting manufacturing jobs in the UK and never have…”
Nissan and Honda to name two encouraged to setup in Britain under Tory rule. Manufacturing in the UK was well in decline after WW2 and then just dropped in to obscurity from the mid 1950’s, eventually destroying itself in the 1970’s.
Regarding labour doing all these things, it is actually a small cabal within the parliamentary labour party, led by Corbyn. Most – that is more than half – of the parliamentary labour party are Blairites and will likely vote against their own party on a number of these points. If they do succeed in implementing these policies, Labour will find themselves out of office for a generation.
Like the departure of most Tory remoaners, Labour has lost a lot of the middle ground Labour. Those left are too comfy in their jobs to seriously fight against McDonnell, who is the true power. Blairites are much soiled by Blair and aren’t popular amongst core Labour voters. Labour has been two parties for a log time and many have left to become Lib Dems. With the SNP, Greens, and the Welsh parties, Labour could get enough power to take back the utilities, the rail, the Post Offiece, Buses, all with the excuse to fund an enact a green revolution. All Labour MPs bar Graham Stringer love all things green and expensive.
Thinks of the Labour MPs actually standing, do you really see them defending the economy?
Isn’t nationalisation against the EU rules? Something to do with state subsidy of industry and unfair competition? However, I think taking back rail would be very popular across the country. Privatisation of British Rail was always more ideological than economic. It was so obviously a bad idea that even Thatcher didn’t go that far. But as I say, I don’t think the EU would allow it.
Not as far as I can tell. Railtrack went back into government ownership. These companies were in state onership when we joined the EU. In theory they won’t be subsidising them, the government will be raking in profits to spend on climate change. They won’t be making these companies more competative, just the opposite. The proof is the damage to share price of the utilities every time Labour threaten. Labour plan to take shares at less than market price.
Absolutely agree McDonnell is the true power within the labour party. Corbyn is the “useful idiot”. If labour get in with a majority expect Corbyn to “retire” within a year and McDonnell to take over.
McDonnell is probably the most dangerous man in Britain currently. He is a real threat to our future.
By the pricking of my thumbs…
Just amazed that the UK Parliament can ignore the will of the people for 3+ years; still no Brexit but they get another election, the 2nd since the Brexit referendum. Does the Queen have powers to take appropriate action?
5.52 … ‘so we haven’t had huge changes in weather and climate over the last 10,000 years, its been an incredible stable period…’
what. the. hell?
errr yes I couldn’t believe I was hearing this…!
It’s Mann’s hockey stick all over again.
We erased the MWP, the famines in Scotland & Ireland, the Vikings didn’t call that country “GREENLAND”, the history books have all been altered and the Romans didn’t grow grapes near Scotland.
The Thames has never frozen over.. (The seine froze for a month in 1984-5…it was a salutary warning with temps of -25 daily for a month, just over the channel in nearby Normandie!)
WTF!
It really looks like Orwell’s 1984 is coming true!