Guest post by Robert Owens
(where ‘saving the planet’ from climate change trumps democracy and the protection of the environment)
A brief summary of the history of this national scandal, involving the brushing aside of local democracy and the blatant flaunting of planning law:
1. In 2014 Hendy Wind Farm Ltd. applied for planning permission to construct a wind farm of 7 giant (110m) turbines at the beautiful site of Llandegley Rhos in mid-Wales, a site that includes a number of ‘scheduled ancient monuments’.
2. After much prevarication Powys County Council Planning Department ignored the overwhelming weight of evidence of harm to the landscape, heritage, tourism, amenity, etc. and, disregarding the shredding of application documents and missing environmental information, recommended approval. The Planning Committee, however, rejected that recommendation and refused to approve the development.
3. The developer then appealed the Council’s decision, resulting in an independent Planning Inspector hearing the evidence over a two week Inquiry in March 2018. In May 2018, in his carefully argued 115 page report, the Inspector again rejected the development, stating, “…the extent of harm to the landscape and historic assets leads me to conclude that the scheme fails to strike an appropriate balance between promoting renewable energy projects and protecting these interests as sought by national policy. It follows that, when taken together, the combined harm to landscape and heritage matters significantly outweigh the identified benefits.”
4. In October 2018 the Welsh Government Cabinet Minister for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths, overrode the Planning Inspector’s recommendation and approved the wind farm proposal, asserting that in her opinion the benefits of the wind farm, in particular its displacement of carbon dioxide emissions (which have been estimated to contribute at most a fifth of a billionth of a degree Centigrade to global warming mitigation in the wind farm’s lifetime – which would be 150,000 times lower than can be measured) overrode all other concerns, whether they be local democracy (the scheme was bitterly opposed by local residents), landscape despoilment or environmental or wildlife damage. Such a terrifying precedent opens the way for wind farm developers to desecrate the landscape almost at will.
5. Construction work began on 20th November and continues at breakneck speed, at nights and at weekends, with no regard for permitted hours of work. The developers have stated that they are determined to erect one turbine before the end of January in order to be eligible for government renewable energy subsidies (Renewable Obligation Certificates) that expire on 31st January 2019. In order to meet this deadline the work is being carried out without any of the pre-commencement planning conditions being discharged. These conditions are all binding and the Minister’s consent is contingent upon the conditions being satisfied in full and discharged. In other words the construction is racing ahead despite [potentially~ctm] being unlawful. When challenged on why they were not enforcing planning law and issuing a Stop Notice on the works Powys County Council (who have a vested financial interest in the development) reply that their failure to enforce planning law was ‘expedient’ (i.e. ‘convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral.’)
6. In its latest report Powys wind farm protesters lose legal bid to stop work the BBC repeat the statement, “Hendy Wind Farm Ltd said all it had done so far was deliver machinery and carry out pre-commencement surveys.” How are we to reconcile this statement with the picture below, taken on 19th December, of the near completion of the base for the first turbine? Clearly the statement is [likely~ctm] untrue – yet the BBC have accepted it.
7. The local branch of the Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales is now seeking leave to start a Judicial Review of the Minister’s decision in a bid to have the planning permission quashed – but even if this succeeds the first turbine (at least) will be up and running (and of course not removed).
If the need for more renewable energy truly trumps all other concerns what hope is there for either local democracy or the environment?
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You don’t understand – all that matters is that we have wind and solar. Everything else is secondary. Ancient artifacts, laws, even lives are irrelevant in the face of wind and solar!
Merry Christmas, indeed…
All that matters is the subsidy. The public trough trumps all reason, logic, critical thinking.
Eliminate any subsidies, rebates and make the public fully aware of the costs and impact on their bills.
Might be time for a “yellow vest” type protest ( see Paris)
I’m trying to imagine the words ‘nuclear’ substituted for ‘wind’ and ‘renewable’ in this sorry story. The planning committee would still be sitting 30 years hence.
Even if the CPRW win the Judicial Review, the Council will just ignore it. All it means is that the CPRW have won a point of law. A JR is not always very effective. I speak from experience. I wish them luck.
Sounds like a typical regional council to me 🙁
Cheers
Roger
Sounds like a good place to have an accidental liquid nitrogen spill. The rebar would become brittle and require complete removal and replacement before the last concrete could be poured thus eliminating the ability to complete the first installation prior to the cutoff date…bye bye renewables rebate
Bryan A: Surely you’re not suggesting an act of vandalism to obstruct construction? Folks who think left and right are the same, here’s the proof otherwise- opponents (mostly right) are going to court, NOT physically obstructing the site etc. The left would have already stopped it with rent-a-mobs and breaking equipment, materials etc. (though not likely to have the technical know-how for the liquid nitro application). Weeks ago. The press would have declared the green victory and never, ever report that the mobs left the formerly pristine site a toxic dump.
Perhaps the Right needs to start behaving in a manner understandable by the left
Violence just begets more violence
Really? Worked against the Nazis. Worked against Imperial Japan. Worked lots of places, lots of times. When your government abuses you what you gonna do, just take it? From available reports these people have exhausted all judicial options. What do you suggest they do?
Alan: Lack of violence begets death and tyranny.
Speak their language, as it were.
@Bryan A:
An eye-for-eye and tooth-for-tooth leads to a world of the blind and toothless.
No, it leads to a world that is much more polite and civil, because idiots stop doing idiotic crap to everyone else.
Bryan,
The left understands the right; that is not the problem. They just believe their cause is more just and any means are acceptable to achieve it. I, for one, will not go down that road. You may want to rethink your stance in order to avoid becoming a mirror image of your opponents.
“They cry “Peace, peace!” when there is no peace.” ~ Patrick Henry
They already failed in court, now the Magna Carta should kick in.
Violence does indeed beget more violence. And when the leftists start seeing pushback they shouldn’t be surprised. It will take a while to wake the beast as it did in France, but it will come the loonier “enviros” get.
G K Chesterton had it right: “War is not ‘the best way of settling differences’; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you.”
In Canada the subsidies and tax credits amount to about 75% of the cost of the turbine. How much are the subsidies in Wales?
I don’t think this is an open and shut case. In Canada we have the case of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. The deck is stacked against it. Any nimby or some indian band a hundred miles from it can stop it by embroiling it in bureaucratic red tape.
Three guys in a local hamlet should not be able to vote down a project that is in the national interest. It sounds like democracy but it really isn’t.
What the hell do you mean “in the national interest”, it is no way in the national interest, it is only in the interests of those investing in harvesting Tax Payers cash.
You are living up to your name “Commie”.
I don’t think he’s saying that the wind turbine project was in the national interest. I think he’s saying that if a project actually were to be in the national interest, then a simple majority of a local planning commission shouldn’t be able to block it, like the pipeline in Canada or the Keystone XL pipeline in the US. We need to think beyond local interests to the broader interest. Of course I, and many of us, believe the broader interest would be served by not wasting resources on vain attempts to control the climate by reducing CO2 emissions.
The particular case I mentioned was surely in Canada’s national interest … unless, of course, you think it is in Canada’s national interest that Alberta and Saskatchewan secede. link
A C Osborn – December 24, 2018 at 2:26 pm
What the ell are you railing about, …. Osborn, ….. or were you just “strutting” your delusional mind-set by mimicking the accusations of like-minded “SAVE-THE-PLANET” enviro greenies.
“DUH”, …… neither Canada’s Trans Mountain Pipeline nor the US’s Keystone Pipeline are government FUNDED projects and therefore there is no “harvesting of Tax Payers cash”.
The subject of this Post is a Welsh Wind Farm in the UK, comparing what is going on here to what is happening in the US and Canada is bullshit.
Here it IS all about harvesting tax payers cash.
So mind your own business.
no, definatly not just Welsh USA the same . You get pay for backing , just ask john Kasich.
If the wants of the many are sufficient to over ride the rights of the few, then there is no such thing as human rights.
You might approve of the Chinese approach. link
commieBob
“You might approve of the Chinese approach. link”
One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.
Whilst the concept of nail houses are dreadful, the fact is the Chinese government have left these places standing.
There’s many a ‘civilised’ western country that wouldn’t.
Nail houses, as distasteful as the circumstances are, present a positive aspect of Chinese government in that they haven’t simply rounded up residents and slung them out.
I can take you to places in Glasgow, and elsewhere in the UK, where precisely that has happened, and will happen when the new Heathrow runway is eventually built. HS2, our proposed new high speed rail link between north and south will not countenance any dissent from British nailhouses. They will simply not exist.
Yep. China is endlessly surprising.
I was told a story about a professor who had been in China about a decade.
Spoken like a man who finds it inconceivable that the majority would ever want to take everything he has.
PS: Scratch a leftist, and you will find a totalitarian every time.
That puzzles me.
I pointed out that sometimes the Chinese protect property rights to an extent not found in America. I thought you would approve.
They protect the “rights” of the Central Committee and its specific designees to take and control whatever “property” they wish. You really want that in your life?
2hotel9
How deeply you misunderstand China. Doing something in the national interest doesn’t mean people don’t have rights.
Oh, they have the right to submit to the State, and every day more stories of what is done to those who do not submit are seeping out.
To paraphrase 2hotel9’s brilliant comment of December 25, 2018 at 4:39 am, to wit:
“Oh, they have the right to submit to the demands of the US Democrat Party, and every day more stories of what is done to those who do not submit (false prosecutions and internments) are being touted by the Democrat leadership themselves as well as their partisan lemmings, …… including future promises of what will happen to those who fail to submit.”
And some people actually believe “human rights” actually exists for US citizens.
“HA”, …… illegal immigrants in the US have been afforded more/better “human rights” that actual/legal US citizens are afforded.
It’s called “democracy.” Most people seem to be for it, until it interferes with their own interests. And it has absolutely nothing to do with “human rights.”
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner, which is why no same person could be for pure democracy.
You are correct, that if the majority has the right to force their will on the minority, then there is no such thing as human rights.
We have had that happening in America for a while, tiny, statistically tiny, political minorities forcing their warped will on everyone else. Now they want open borders and mass amnesty for illegal aliens. Hmmmm.
You left out the second part.
Lawfare and a leftist scotus, was how leftist minorities feck us all over.
commieBob
I don’t think this is three guys in a ‘local’ hamlet.
Wales hardly represents the scale of American geography, indeed, I’m sure the country is barely 100 miles by 50 miles. There will be an awful lot more people living in that geographical area than just three men, in fact the capital City of Wales is within ninety minutes or so drive of the site. If that.
And in the face of a local planning officers considered opinion that the site should not go ahead, and whilst it seems documents have been shredded and destroyed, there is considerable doubt as to this schemes credibility.
Those of us on WUWT recognise the rent seeking nature of wind turbine developers. My country, Scotland, is now peppered with these abominations and electricity bills are beginning to spiral. Not yet like Germany or Australis, but very soon the effects will be felt.
And whilst “Three guys in a local hamlet” can’t stop a windfarm, a rag tag bunch of disaffected hippies can stop fracking in Lancashire where Quadrilla have spent years attempting to drill just exploratory sites, never mind embark on an entire project.
Sorry mate. Your usual excellent judgement has abandoned you on this occasion.
The beautiful Welsh countryside will be despoiled by these monstrous, inefficient monuments to global warming folly, as they have done, wholesale in my country. I would rather not see Wales subjected to the same fate.
Wales and Scotland have a common ancestry, we are brothers in arms but for one place, the Rugby pitch. It seems, however, we face the same fate of plundering for the sake of England where wind farms are few and far between by land mass comparison.
You may not know of the pole tax where Scotland was blatantly used as an experiment, before riots in the streets of London tore down the government of the time.
These windfarm experiments are no different but have been sold under the emotive cloud of saving the planet. I despise the London centric socialists who would see these deeds perpetrated amongst the nations of our countries without first taking the lead themselves. Cowardice and treachery.
Nor is that to suggest I despise the English as a whole. I live in the SE of the country and people here are as appalled at the injustice as anyone else. It’s the London ruling elite I despise.
This roughshod treatment of our union states must be stopped. And whilst Scotland is perceived as self governing, make no mistake, there is considerable encouragement from Westminster to have them wreck their economy with these abominations, as just another experiment.
More like 150 x 100 Miles and the lady in question is an AM ie an MP in the Welsh assembly in Cardiff and not London.
A C Osborn
Sorry about the geographical gaffe. I was illustrating a point.
The Welsh assembly is as beholding to Westminster as Scotland is, in fact more so as they don’t have a government as devolved as Scotland does.
My point is that both countries are simply puppets to the political will of Westminster.
And be very wary of devolved government. Whilst the purse strings are still held by Westminster, the blame is directed at Hollyrood from both the people of Scotland and Westminster.
Need to get Green Piece out there to Save Wales
HotScot, no problem, the point is the Welsh AM do what they want and like Westminster is all London, the AM is all Cardiff.
What she did trampling over local opposition & Planning Departments was a disgrace.
Wales has an area of about 8000 sq. miles, somewhere between the two estimates. You both pass with a ‘C’
HotScot, I agree, I remember when Cefn Croes was despoiled and upland bog drained.
Nobody wanted a wind farm there, the area was already inundated with the the abominations – even the Green Party was against the proposal.
The Welsh Assembly Government (WAG) had no real say, but being mainly Labour wouldgo along with anything the Westminster New Labour party decided).
Permission was given for the wind farm by the energy minister in Westminster (New Labour MP Brian Wilson) who had not visited area, never mind the site. He later became Chair of the UK Operations Board of Airtricity (an Irish wind turbine company).
The usual advice is: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
When politicians are involved, it is also foolish to discount actual outright corruption.
Many times I have thought I knew what was going on only to later be disabused. Thus, I have learned to be aggressively skeptical.
commieBob
You need only look to Scotland for evidence of what is described here to dispel your scepticism.
I’m not skeptical of what you’re telling me. I’m skeptical of activists and politicians. I suspect that only terminal senility will dispel that. There’s too much supporting evidence.
Need to get Green Piece out there to Save Wales
There is not enough available “money” for Greenpeace to even think about getting involved.
Greenpeace is like the Red Cross and Al Sharpton, …… they only get involved if it is a “profitable” venture.
I do enjoy seeing them rammed by whaling ships, I’d pay a dollar to watch that! Where do I send my donation to get it started?
I’m surprised at you, HotScot! The reason Scotland got the poll (sp) tax first was because we screamed loudest and first about the rates revaluation which shifted much of the burden from commercial to domestic.
We demanded an end to the rating system and that’s what we got. The fact the poll tax was a disaster was because the local authorities and tle activists made sure it was disaster. It has ever since been a Scottish urban myth that we were used as guinea pigs. Don’t kid yourself that Westminster ever gave us that much thought!
And the most dedicated supporter of windfarms and opponent of shale gas is Ms Sturgeon herself and her allies in Cymru are just as bad and equally capable of making this sort of totalitarian blunder without the need to drag the English into it.
Community Charge (aka, but erroneously, Poll Tax) would have been one of Margaret Thatcher’s greatest achievements if instituted as quickly as possible after the ’79 election. Delay allowed opposition to grow.
The great idea behind Community Charge – NOT QUITE A TAX – was twofold. Firstly, it linked the charge more closely to the services the charge was intended to provide, so that the people being charged could see what they were getting for the money. Secondly, all the people being charged could vote for the people – councillors – who would be making the charge, and spending the funds. This is an important principle. The former system, and the system which now has replaced the Community Charge, allows for the whole electorate, with their many and varied demands on the services, to vote for the councillors who will distribute the funds, but for which only a minority will pay – a bad system indeed. Our transatlantic friends will remember the cry ‘no taxation without representation’. The corollary – ‘no representation without taxation’ has democratic merit also.
burn the equipment,destroy the site,carbon has become the magic word that sweeps all before it–if the locals allow it.
ctm mod
“Hendy Wind Farm Ltd said all it had done so far was deliver machinery and carry out pre-commencement surveys. How are we to reconcile this statement with the picture below ….. of the near completion of the base for the first turbine?” Are there any lefties out there who value honesty and integrity over achieving stated goals regardless of how unethical the methods? Once leadership is willing to do things illegally, there is no end to what they will do to get their way. At some point it might mean their followers become disposable because the gain is so great (i.e. lots of money).
That was rhetorical, right?
The first things “Liberals” liberate themselves from are ethical standards. Unbiased media once limited how far they would go, but those days are gone. Why should we be surprised at any obscenity perpetrated by Leftists who believe the end justifies the means?
The very fact that such turbines can be built without non-fossil fuel energy is proof that the turbines are not needed.
Similar things have been happening in Germany.
It is a definite case of “we must destroy the environment to save it.”
I still wonder if modern payola exploits the convenient low traceability of bitcoins.
Climate change (madness) is the biggest threat to (western ) civilization. The pendulum swings back to China and India.
[not here~mod]
[not here~mod]
[not here~mod]
[not here, not there, not anywhere]
[I will not eat them, Sam I am]
[I will not eat green eggs and ham]
[~¿~]
+lots
Been nothing but a Labour Politician (3rd division) all her life. Member of Unison and the Fabian Society.
I her opinion, her scientific opinion, the importance of curbing CO2 emissions trumps everything. Apart from being deranged, has she taken a kick back?
Cui bono?
Fabians were (and likely still are) eugenicists of course.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2009/11/how-eugenics-poisoned-the-welfare-state/
Obama called it, “Deem and do”.
Methinks some “direct action” is needed to stop these green scamsters.
[no~mod]
Perhaps a bit drastic.
I think a few hundred yellow-vests blocking the access roads for a few weeks might be sufficient.
With lots of media coverage.
Makes as much sense as …… Trump shutting the government down ….. the Saturday before Christmas, ……. when the majority of all elected Politician and/or Federal employees will be away from their job, …… celebrating Christmas and the New Year from December 20th to January 7th or later.
Yep, all of the publicity and attention, very little actual waste of government resources.
And it’s guaranteed to be discussed by all those people gathering together for the holidays. Gotta have SOMETHING to talk about with friends and relatives.
~¿~
And it’s only “non-essential” services that are shut down.
Begs the question, why are we paying for non-essential government services?
Make a list of all those “non-essential” personnel and pink slip ’em. They can ride out winter on unemployment, plenty of time to find something productive and useful to do with their lives.
Brilliant strategery! Mr Limbow had several callers Friday and yesterday who work in DC and they pointed out people were gone as early as Monday the 17th. I love it when a plan comes together!
nicholas tesdorf
I think comments like that are unbecoming of this site and it’s contributors.
Direct action is the preserve of socialism. And whilst sometimes I would love it to happen I don’t condone the bullying of democracy by even a large minority.
Brexit is a case in point.
The difference between what I am advocating and socialism is that for the leftists the first resort is direct action, rather than waiting until you have shown that due process has failed.
Where is the foundation, construction permit and pipeline for the natural gas plant that will be needed to back up these turbines?
Built long ago as part of the National Grid.
Not so very long ago greenies and other environmentalists protested against the construction of wind turbines on the grounds they were a detriment to the environment killing birds, disturbing animals, and driving people to distraction because of very low frequency emissions.
Then came global warming…, oops, climate change!
<<<<>>>>
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Christmas is a time when Alarmists gather together, roast chestnuts, and share memories.
– They tell their children how there used to be a cold white substance, called snow.
– They reassure their children that Santa really does exist, and that he delivers presents to all of the good children (the ones who believe in global warming).
– And they give thanks for the 97% consensus (that global warming is real, that it is caused by humans, and that there was no recent slowdown).
In keeping with the true Christmas spirit, Alarmists have just published 2 new papers, which (they say) demonstrate convincingly that the recent slowdown wasn’t a real phenomenon.
It is a pity that they didn’t read my article first. They could have saved themselves a lot of time, and millions of dollars (of your money)!!!
The article is called “Alarmist thinking on the recent slowdown is one dimensional”
https://agree-to-disagree.com/alarmist-thinking-on-the-slowdown
Warning – this article contains undeniable proof, that the recent slowdown WAS a real phenomenon.
So if you want to continue believing that the recent slowdown doesn’t exist, then don’t read this article.
Sheldon, somebody has to rebuke you even if moderators won’t. You have now posted this same exact ‘redirect’ comment on at least four different recent guest posts, including mine on ocean sea water chemistry.
I took a peak at your work. ” ‘Length and strength’ eyeball graphics rather than statistics.” There are far more persuasive ways to show the pause is/was real, for example those from Ross Mckittrick using (horror) well known advanced statistics incorporating the well known effects of autocorrelation.
Please stop.
[Noted. Thank you. .mod]
Plenty of cold white substance here on the right-hand side of the pond. At 55.95 deg N, supposedly in the balmy embrace of the Gulf Stream, there’s a stout air frost oustide, with a pretty crust on anything that isn’t moving. A beautiful waning gibbous moon (very clear with binoculars) , and the stars are twinkling, as are all the festive lights in our street.
The super-efficient central heating gas boiler keeps my 120 year old house warm.
I am eternally grateful to all the geologists (I was one once), other scientists and engineers who make the entire supply chain from well to domestic boiler possible. I’m old enough to remember the past: power cuts, open fires, paraffin heaters, hotwater bottles etc..
Confronting the alarmism is tiring, and often comes at a social cost if one dares mention ones scepticism to people who don’t have the decency to respond with a question rather than a look of horror. It’s often hard to find out what they really think, beyond parroting the mainstream slogans.
Merry Christmas to all from this ‘climate denier’.
I wonder what birdshot from a shotgun would do to a wind turbine, or a few well aimed .303 bullets, plenty of the old Enfield rifle still around, and a lot easier than blowing them up.
As to the ” Not nice””, comments. Sadly we do not live in a nice world.
MJE
ctm it is Christmas day and your work involves all this read through comments and decide if they are illegal or against site rules. Thanks for the work.
Please ppl don’t push against those rules. I’m sure ctm might have other things to do than look after you.
I was wondering when this would start. I once helped build a wind powered generator near there back in the late 70s. Can’t remember the name of the place but it was at a farm somewhere near the Mynydd Eppynt that had a ridge line that had almost constant airflow over it. 3m high vertical shaft in a bracing frame, carefully balanced scoop-type rotors, high quality sealed bearings, enclosed gearing to generator, to tractor batteries. Low enough to blast the ice off from a tractor in winter. Miles from the nearest grid line. Not much point trying solar panels. There was a generator in the shed. Not sure how long it lasted, but we reckoned 3 years would be an achievement. This Hendy thing is 110m high? Lol. Good luck with that. Apart from the snow and ice, the next force 10 off the North Atlantic will probably be enough.
“The developers have stated that they are determined to erect one turbine before the end of January in order to be eligible for government renewable energy subsidies” And there you go, the fix is in, money is quietly changing hands behind closed doors. This “minister”? Watch her activities, check her finances, these two actions will answer many questions.
“”Welsh Government Cabinet Minister for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths, overrode the Planning Inspector’s recommendation and approved the wind farm proposal, asserting that in her opinion the benefits of the wind farm, in particular its displacement of carbon dioxide emissions….”
Okay, answer this question: How much of a kickback is Griffiths getting out of this project?
Don’t tell me there isn’t a kickback. I see too much of this kind of thing rammed through willy-nilly, whether local people want/like it or not.
How much of a kickback is she getting????
Well said.
If it is a “green” project it is certainly corrupt.
Particularly if it involves a Liebore politician.
Per her ‘personal’ site – http://www.lesleygriffiths.org/ – she claims [last update was February 2017] to be a ‘Co owner of Wrexham AFC. ‘ It is unclear if she is a nominated representative of Wrexham Supporters’ Trust (as a Welsh AM).
So there could not possibly be an elided sweetener to Wrexham FC . . .
[“Based on the club’s recorded formation date of 1864, they are the oldest club in Wales and the third oldest professional football team in the world.” – from famous and utterly reliable [except when it is not] Wikipedia. Off thread, but perhaps of interest.]
Auto
If the need for more renewable energy truly trumps all other concerns what hope is there for either local democracy or the environment?
Guns.
Lots of Guns
Well it seems that Hendy Wind Farm is a wholly owned subsidiary of listed property developer U and I Group Plc…a UK based property developer which seems to have a small interest in wind farms… quite why an urban development company should be investing in energy generating (sic) assets is a mystery… but maybe it because they want to feel the green (both the political and the financial).
The Welsh Govt has failed abysmally here. And yes it would be worth following the U and I money in Wales to see what is what… not suggesting anything, but if you don’t look you don’t know
Flaunt: to display ostentatiously
Flout: to treat with scorn, to disregard
So these cronies are flaunting their disregard for the laws and citizens by flouting them.
/dictionarynazi
Thank you, Lark. I was just heading down the screen to make the same point!
While we’re at it, ‘haggle’ and ‘barter’ aren’t interchangeable either! Just in case!