Guest Essay by Kip Hansen
I have often been asked “Why do you deny climate change?” I am always stumped by the question. It is rather like being asked “Why do you torture innocent animals?” The questioner is not merely asking for information, they are always making an accusation — an accusation that they consider very serious and a threat to themselves and others.
The reason it stumps me is that, as you have guessed already, I do not deny climate change (and I do not torture innocent animals — nor even guilty ones). And there is nothing about me or my behavior, present or past, that I am aware of, that would lead any reasonable person to think such a thing of me.
I am thoroughly guilty though of being very skeptical of what is generally referred to as the Climate Consensus — usually said to be represented by the latest reports and policy recommendations put out by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and its supporters; political, ideological and scientific. I suppose it is this that leads to the false accusation of “denying climate change”.
And there is the crux of the matter — it is something in the mind of the accuser, not any action of the accused, which leads to the false accusation.
MY DENIAL:
I deny that I am a Climate Denier, a Global Warming denier or any other kind of a “denialist”.
WHY I DON’T DENY:
I do not deny either of the two primary claims of the Global Warming Movement:
1. Global Warming is happening
2. Human activity causes [some of] it.
Here’s why I don’t deny #1: Global Warming is happening.
I am perfectly happy to accept that the “world” (the “global climate”) has warmed since the late 1800s. We know that the date of 1880/1890 is picked for the starting point of most of the contemporary consensus view plots — purportedly because it represents “the start of the modern industrial era”, this despite the fact that even the IPCC does not claim that “CO2 induced global warming” started at that date. Let’s take a closer look at Lamb and Lamb_modified_by_Jones:


We all know that Lamb was showing a stylized “schematic” view of Central England temperatures — and Jones 2007 re-does the analysis with very slightly different results, then overlays (in blue) the measured Central England through 2007. This graph contains the seed of my certainty that “global warming is happening” — which, in un-politicized language would be something like: “The Earth’s general climate has warmed since a bit before 1700 CE — i.e., for the last 300+ years.” Here’s Spencer 2007:

And if you prefer, here’s the NOAA version with comparisons of various reconstructions :

They all show cooling to approximately 1650 – 1700 and general warming since then.
From where does my skepticism arise then? Well, there is no more — general warming started about 1650-1700, maybe a little earlier, and has been ongoing. When warming doesn’t start is 1880/1890 — it starts a hundred and fifty to two hundred years earlier — earlier than the start of the increased CO2 output of the modern Industrial Era. This makes me very skeptical indeed of the claim that the industrial revolution and modern warming are intrinsically entwined.
And I think that it is a good thing that it has warmed since 1700. The Little Ice Age years, up thru the 16 and 17 hundreds, were hard times for farmers (and thus whole populations) in North America and Europe, as attested to by contemporary accounts of crop failures and hard winters.

To my knowledge, this point is not controversial or even contested. In the Consensus Worldview, it is simply over-looked and not mentioned. Truthfully, since the facts don’t match the narrative — the narrative that global warming was caused by the start of the Industrial Revolution and its subsequent CO2 emissions — this fact seems to have been down played or ignored.
What does the IPCC say? “Warming of the climate system is unequivocal.” — IPCC AR5 SPM 1.1
Well, I couldn’t agree more — moreover, it has been warming since about 1650-1700, two hundred years before the Industrial Revolution starts pouring out CO2.
What else does the IPCC say? “ … recent anthropogenic emissions of green-house gases are the highest in history.” — IPCC AR5 SPM 1
Again, I don’t disagree:

Without arguing about when “history” began, we can stipulate that the graph the European Geophysical Union gives us is an “accurate enough” picture of CO2 concentrations over the last thousand years. CO2 remains a shaky 275-290 ppm for 800 years and then begins to show a rise around 1850, finally breaking into new territory circa 1880-1890 — the start of the modern Industrial Era. The Wiki offers us the following, again confirming that CO2 does not begin to rise until 1890-1900, long after temperatures begin to rise.

It is simply a fact that atmospheric CO2 concentration has been rising since 1880-1890-1900 (close enough for my purpose today) and that it is now higher than it has been in a long time. Some think that this is a good thing, as it has brought about a resurgence in plant life on Earth’s surface and some think it is a bad thing.
Atmospheric CO2 has been rising — but is there doubt about this? — “ … recent anthropogenic emissions of green-house gases are the highest in history.” ?
While it is not easy to measure atmospheric CO2 concentrations, it has been being done for quite some time….and we have been able to guess about human greenhouse-gas emissions and their sources. [These are naturally abject guesses, but we needn’t argue with them on that account — they are our “best guesses”).
The IPCC’s AR5 includes this graphic:

We see that recent emissions are highest, at least in this history, but notice that cumulatively up to 1970 (see the right hand inset bar graph), Forestry and other land use accounts for more than 50% of all CO2 emissions. This surprised even me — I was expecting a pretty big contribution from the clear-cutting and conversion into pasture and farmland of much of Europe and North America east of the Mississippi River — but I had no idea that Forestry and Land Use accounts for >50% all the way to 1970 –and that’s nineteen seventy, not eighteen seventy. By some proxies, global surface temperature had been rising for 300 years by 1970.
Keeping that fact in mind, let’s see what else the IPCC has to say about causes:
“Anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions have increased since the pre-industrial era, driven largely by economic and population growth, and are now higher than ever. This has led to atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide that are unprecedented in at least the last 800,000 years. Their effects, together with those of other anthropogenic drivers, have been detected throughout the climate system and are extremely likely to have been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.”
The IPCC in their synthesis report for policy makers says that human emissions of greenhouse gases and “other anthropogenic drivers,” are “extremely likely to have been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.”
Well, OK. This is where my Climate Skepticism begins to gain some traction. Dr. Judith Curry, president and founder of Climate Forecast Applications Network, recently offered the following graphic in an essay entitled “Fundamental disagreement about climate change”:

I would have used slightly different points and alternate wordings — but the essence would be the same.
The IPCC Consensus general position is shown on the left — CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) are the primary “forcing” of climate — with changes in CO2 causing changing climate (basically warming) — this warming amplified by feedbacks, like increased water vapor and clouds.
On the right is Dr. Curry’s general view — I share much the same viewpoint. I would have placed place more emphasis this:
Climate is Chaotic: It is composed of highly complex, globally coupled, spatio-temporal chaotic, resonant systems.
So far, I agree with all the facts, but don’t agree that recent CO2 (and other) emissions are “the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.” I agree neither with the attribution of CO2 as dominate or the effect size.
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If you aren’t yet bored to tears, you can find out more on my reasons for that in Part 2, to be published in the next day or so.
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Author’s Comment Policy:
I have tried to use examples, graphs, that would be generally acceptable to both sides of the Climate Divide, and to avoid controversial minor or fringe sources. I didn’t need to — I am happy with the data presented and that’s Why I Don’t Deny.
I suppose that many readers will disagree with my lack of denial or agree but have different reasons. That is how it should be in a new young field of science like Climate. Feel free to tell all in your comments. I may reply to rational, collegial remarks, questions and requests for clarification.
I am, however, too old to argue.
Address comments to “Kip…” if you expect a response.
# # # # #
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I’ve been accused of being a “climate denier” many times. And always by people who have no scientific knowledge whatsoever.
I bet it is not always.
OK. 97% of them.
OK, so it’s a “consensus” that you are a deeenier. LOL.
Kip:
Not a good starting point Kip. You know that one of the worst things about being in denial is that you can not recognize it. Saying you are not in denial will just get you a “there you go: a perfect example of someone in denial”. In order to get better ( from your mental illness ) you first need to come to terms with it and recognize the problem.
If someone says : do you realize that you contradict everything anyone tells you? You can not refute by saying : NO I DON’T !
I suggest you take a different line of argument in part two. 😉
Greg, first, Kip denying something doesn’t mean he is in denial. If you disagree with his point of view you might believe that. In that case, the roles reverse though: he can make the same charge about you, with just as much consistency.
Second, since you’re making a cute attempt at a logical argument, a person certainly can refute denial exactly as you say he can’t. He may mean he doesn’t realize he contradicts everything anyone tells him.
The statement is false from the start, though, because the person making the claim doesn’t know everything anyone says to the other person, or his replies.
I did not say he was in denial, I was commenting on his attempts are refuting such a claim made by some hypothetical other.
Saying you are not in denial in the case where are not is honest and truthful but still is not going to work against someone who wishes to maintain that you are, for the reason which I stated.
Before getting too proxy defensive on Kip’s behalf , put on your reading glasses and note the little yellow smiley at end.
I understood your point, and it plays out in real life. Every time you present a counter-argument or a scientific paper, it is dismissed as a denier presenting evidence which is already false or wrong if it comes from a ‘denier’ blog or a ‘denier’ scientist, and is therefore worthless. The stupidity belongs to those who cannot see that via that reasoning, the theory can NEVER be falsified, which makes it a religious belief, rather than a scientific theory. My approach now is to ask people: How can anybody be said to deny an occurrence that hasn’t happened yet, when there is no precedent for that event?
“The stupidity belongs to those cannot see that via that reasoning the theory can NEVER be falsified”
That kind of reasoning is called a True Scotsman fallacy. https://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/
Greg ==> I hope that’s a ‘wink’….
Glad you noticed the smiley wink, Kip. Tongue in cheek certainly but there is a serious point about saying ‘I’m not in denial ‘ and the response it will get from such an accuser.
I would reply that claiming someone is mentally ill because they do not agree about a scientific position shows a total lack of scientific
understanding and factual arguments on the part of the person making such claims.
It’s nothing more than name calling and saying I’m not in denial accepts getting into an argument about your own mental health instead of the facts of climate science: which is PRECISELY where they wanted to take you. You lose before you even start.
The only way out is to attack them directly for name-calling and insulting behavior in place of making a valid argument. You can also be pretty confident that any one who starts out like that knows sod all about climate, scientific proof or logic and has probably never opened a single document published by the IPCC.
Ask them how many polar bears they think there are this year and how their numbers compare to 30 years ago.
The other 3% are ignorant of grammar and reality.
Anyone who accuses someone of being a “climate denier” has no scientific (or reality) knowledge whatsoever.
It’s impossible to deny the climate.
There’s two groups promoting climate alarmists.
1) Those who know nothing of science.
2) Those who know better but are using the climate scare to promote something else. Either their own pocket book, of some form of socialism.
Which group do you fall into Simon?
Where do you put the very large group who have been brainwashed since their formative years into thinking they are “saving the planet”?
Jim ==> I place them in the mis-educated. There is hope for them if they have been taught critical thinking skills — otherwise, its a long slog.
Considering recent studies showing that urban public schools (a significant share of the populous) are graduating students with, on average, 8th grade reading proficiency and 4th grade math skills, put your money on a long slog Kip.
Considering recent elections that put President Covfefe into power with the vocabulary of a 4th grader, why does it matter?
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-fire-and-fury-smart-genius-obama-774169
Maybe that says as much about the analysts as it does about the person they are analyzing. The President does at least have an Economics degree from a serious University School.
I am more inclined to side with those who claim he tends to say what he his thinking at that moment, not that that is his final conclusion.
“His followers believe what he means, not what he says” is perhaps the best translation I have heard. His opponents will, as one might expect, look to to find the worst meaning in his often casual or lazy comments.
As a “follower” I say:
Action over blather,
substance over style,
Results over symbolism,
What works over appearances,
…
“As a “follower” I say:
Action over blather,
substance over style,
Results over symbolism,
What works over appearances,”
To a degree. When is enough enough?
Once again, our leftists jump in to whine how anyone who disagrees with them must be stupid.
He may not be the sharpest knife in the congressional kitchen but at least he knows climate BS when he smells it.
I always think those who sign their name on the front of paychecks instead of on the back of paychecks has a lot more on the ball than most everyone else. 🙂
I would put them in group 1.
There’s a third group. The lazy, busy or naively trusting. Those who are highly intelligent, and do know something about science, but have been so bombarded with AGW via school, the media, politicians and trusted sources (like our national broadcaster) that they assume it’s true, not their area of expertise, and just haven’t bothered to dig deeper and think harder. I fell into that category, and my family and friends do too. I am having a hard time deprogramming them. It was only after the bad winter last year in Europe and North America, and our bumper ski season here, that I started thinking “Hang on a minute…”. When they started to say global warming was causing more ice and snow, after previously scaring us all that our snow fields here would be gone (ten years ago), I smelt a rat. And boy did I find a BIG rat! The psychological manipulation is incredible. Even university educated people like my sister trot out myths like “But CO2 is the highest in earth’s history”. “It’s the rate of change that shows we are causing it”. One friend explained that global warming causes colder weather. I said, “Think about what you just said. Warming causes cooling.” War is Peace. 2 + 2 = 5.
Often the question (the accusation) betrays the questioner’s ignorance.
So what? If it’s really true, it means that you make no effort to seek out more qualified people to engage with. That’s your fault.
Chris, I’m about to wander into the centre of London to spend an hour or so listening to the arguments at Speakers Corner and maybe do a bit of shopping on Oxford Street. I will pass hundreds of people and I can tell you that none of them care less about the CAGW nonsense. If they did, none of them would be using thr fossil-fuel driven public and private transport, or standing under the electric lights in the shops.
People don’t care about your religion Chris. However, it’s a crime that it’s costing them trillions to prop up your religion.
Andy, looks like you are wrong. Unless, that is, that you are only walking past old men from the East Midlands. And your comment that folks must not believe in AGW if they take the bus or train is rubbish. If someone says they believe AGW is real, but still drive a Bentley, are they a hypocrite? Absolutely. But that’s not true of folks who take publich transport to work or for their everyday lives. https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/uk-climate-change-real-accept-majority-global-warming-poll-finds-a7909841.html
The Independent. Ho ho!
“People over 55 were more likely to dispute the evidence than those in younger age groups with 15 per cent falling into this group, the poll found.” Looks like those with real-world experience have a better handle on the truth.
“The pollsters, commissioned by gocompare.com asked: Do you believe in Global Warming?
Those who answered, ‘Yes, completely…”
I’d have answered, “Yes, completely” too.
Listening to all the myriad of languages spoken on Oxford Street, I can guarantee you that hardly any of them are from the East Midlands.
I’m sorry. What was the question again? Did you stop denying climate at the same time you stopped beating your wife?
With regards to your comment about driving a Bentley making you a hypocrite. We’ll, you’ve justed written off the globe-trotting Al Gore and Mike Mann and his gang as they fly from on climate gab-fest to another.
I presume you agree Al, Mike, Naomi, et al are all hypocrites?
Yes, Gore is a hypocrite. He buys offsets, but he could do a lot better in terms of his carbon footprint and set an example.
Chris
“Yes, Gore is a hypocrite. He buys offsets”
A monstrous understatement. As I understand it he set up an investment firm to trade carbon credits. It shut it’s door to new investors when it hit $5Bn.
This from a tobacco farmer who said himself he wouldn’t stop growing the stuff until he found something else to do.
And didn’t he just hit on a cracker, scare up global warming then trade on the back of it for personal profit.
What a toad.
HS, you have just given toads a bad rap, please leave them alone, they are completely innocent, even though often undesirable.
HotScot – Gore has made little if any money off his green-related investments. Almost all of his wealth came from the sale of Apple stock given in his role as a member of their BoD, and the sale of Current TV, in which he had a large stake. So your statement about personal profit is incorrect.
Chris
You really are a blind adherent to the party line. Gore has run Generation Investment Management for 14 years, he is likely to have made many hundreds of millions from it, if not billions.
He sold his TV network to Al Jazeera for $100M. Al Jazeera is a Middle Easter big oil funded network and Gore just happily picked up the dirty money he has condemned others for taking and trousered it.
What an utter hypocritical scum bag.
HotScot said “he is likely to have made many hundreds of millions from it, if not billions.”
It took me 15 seconds to find this. Why not do your own homework?
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4102202-tracking-al-gores-generation-investment-management-portfolio-q2-2017-update
GIM invests in undervalued stocks. Note the word stocks. That means publicly listed companies – not green tech startups. You can even see the names of their positions. Names like Microsoft, Thermo Fisher, Acuity. no green tech companies in the list.
So what you said is false. He did not make his money from green investments.
Chris
You might want to spend a bit more time than it take you to ejaculate reading and understanding about your love Gore. Nowhere did I even suggest he invested in startups, you might want to spend some time reading the comments posted.
I spent some time reading a number of articles on the unpleasant shyster and he even traded carbon credits to offset the $30,000 energy bill for his 20 bedroom mansion.
You, on the other hand, just find an article that suits your miserable argument and like everything else you do, sling it up here, misinterpret what others have said and then utterly ignore the rest of the argument presented.
Once again, Chris makes a specious claim against a Chris’s false strawman using links that fail to prove Chris’s points or disprove Andy Wilkins’ comment.
Andy states:
Chris’s link doesn’t even touch the topic “whether people care” about CAGW. It only questions whether they believe or accept global warming; causes are basically unstated. i.e. blaming “greenhouse gases” means exactly what to individuals?
The Independent’s article makes many claims; e.g. “Climate change is real”, “global warming”, “caused by greenhouse gases”, believe, etc. etc.
All, without providing survey questions, or providing survey responses, or supplying the survey’s explicit meanings for terms used, etc. etc.
Nor does the poll company, Censuswide, cited by the Independent provide any information about their surveys.
What Censuswide does proved in their “About” statement is illuminating!
In other words, Censuswide will provide the results desired by the paying customer. Which, by copious past evidence, is whatever frightening event, topic or person that the Independent is flogging as imminent doom.
Andy Wilkin’s summation is proof for his comment:
“If they did, none of them would be using thr{sic} fossil-fuel driven public and private transport, or standing under the electric lights in the shops”
Now is the time where Chrissy should tell us how it, personally, grows their own fibers, harvests, cards, twists that fiber into yarn. Then weaves the yarns into clothing.
Chrissy should also tell us how they grow all of their food and preserves that food for year round consumption.
All without any use of fossil fuels.
Chris’s link fails to disprove, or even question, any portion of Kip Hansen’s excellent article.
Many thanks ATheoK
Chris
And of course the UN is wrong.
http://data.myworld2015.org
In Chris’s world view, anything he agrees with is unquestionable.
Anything he disagrees with has already been disproven (by his disagreeing with it of course) and hence not worth talking about.
Chris: That would be my initial conclusion about everything that comes out of that corrupt organization.
This is a purely “progressives” racist remark. Bashing “Deplorables”. This is a “tell” that you haven’t a thought in your head of your own.
Chris, London has big traffic problems, plus there is no parking available for the average John to drive into work – that is why they use public transport. I am sure many CAGW believers would prefer the convenience of driving to work if it was practicable for them to do so.
Ray – thanks for missing the point entirely.
Now that’s funny coming from Chris, who refuses to read anything except what has already been approved by the priests of his religion.
I really do find it fascinating how socialists just assume that the only reason why everyone isn’t a socialist, is because the rest of us are just ignorant.
Like Obama declaring that the only reason why so many people didn’t like ObamaCare was because he hadn’t given enough speeches on the subject.
MarkW defends the US health care system where we spend more than any other country as a % of GDP, and get worse results. He will fight to the end to defend corporate hospitals, drug companies and insurance companies who are ripping off American consumers!
worse results? Up north we have some neighbors who love to fill your head with such nonsense- it’s part of their inferiority complex.
Every single graduate of McMasters leaves Canada for the USA.
In Canada, health-care workers made up 43 per cent of SARS cases. Filthy hospitals, eh.
In Ontario hundreds of patients had prostate biopsies with dirty needles because the instructions on sterilization were in English.
If you need an MRI in Vancouver- get in line – they only have one and it’s booked ahead for months.
If you want a fast, cheap CAT scan go to California- they have them in malls there.
San Francisco CA Low Cost CT Scan for Uninsured or Self Pay $134.28
Canadians go there all the time.
Good luck not dying as you wait for treatment by the NIH in London.
You have noooo idea.
Stating one does not know what causes the changes in climate is enough to get labeled a “denier”. Any doubts in the global warming narrative is doubleplus ungood crimethink, and the True Believers will try to punish you for your heresy.
I deny CAGW and the doom and gloom prophecies of paranoid freaks that happen to be registered book smart.
The warmists are not that smart – if they were, they’d come up with a more credible falsehood.
More credible, maybe, but more profitable? I doubt that.
Thirty years of gloom and doom (with countless prophesies fallen by the wayside. What do we have to show for it? More temperate weather, more food and a greener world! I say bring on more greenhouse gasses.
Now, Jon, do you see what you did here? You forgot to close your parentheses. Now the rest of the internet is stuck inside your parenthetical black hole, which is inside someone else’s parenthetical black hole, which is inside someone else’s unclosed quote black hole, which is…
[The mods quickly assist to close the theoretical open parenthetical blackholelessness )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) … .mod]
The true ‘deniers’ are those that cherry-pick their data, or their narrow time period of data, and deny that all other data is relevant, especially since it leads to different conclusions. Especially so if your selective look at the data allows you to re-interpret it’s relationships to other data and redefine understood process. Very well written essay. Clearly lays out the scientific way of looking at this versus the propaganda. Those that most need to read and understand it will refuse to, of course.
I agree with you Kip,
As I have written before I first met John Maunder and in a conversation he told me his role in global weather and his time with the WMO and how he attended the first two climate conferences in Villach and in Rio
.John and his wife came to stay with me and he addressed a meeting that I chaired on why global warming as it was known then was in his opinion was not a problem and that the world had been as warm as present in the last three climate optimums .He also covered much what you have written here Kip and he was well received .
Not long after that our elite warmist James Renwick wrote in the New Zealand Herald that the climate optimums where an inconvenient fact that they would like to disprove that they were ever as warm as now.
John Maunder also told me that methane from livestock was never mentioned at the first two conferences but it was introduced in the Kyoto accord and accepted by politicians .
I take the same approach as you Kip but when we get activists trying to destroy our farming economy I have to push back .
Farming leaders in New Zealand are trying to get the facts before the public that methane from livestock is cyclic and is a non problem .
In a recent farming publication an Australian scientist Mark Howden stated that he had proved that methane was a problem and he had proved it but I can find no record of an experiment .
I cannot locate this on the internet and I would like to view his proof.
Thanks again Kip
Well said Gwan,
I can’t believe how much air time the NZ media gives Renwick and never any critical analysis of his alarming views. Just because he represents NIWA to the public doesn’t mean he’s above questioning.
Are you by any chance going to be at the Porto Skeptics conference in September…it would be good to meet up with a fellow Kiwi there?
Happy to be corrected, but I understood the previous 4 Inter-glacials were warmer than today by between 3-5 degrees C!
“Happy to be corrected, but I understood the previous 4 Inter-glacials were warmer than today by between 3-5 degrees C!”
I don’t think we know to that degree (pun maybe intended) of accuracy. Ice cores have their own set of problems as a temperature proxy. The best we can say is “we don’t know”.
Gwan ==> Methane is a greenhouse gas with a shortish life-span, breaking down into CO2 and water in under ten years. In water, it is metabolized by bacteria and other wee tiny goblins. This process is much faster when excess methane (such as produced in landfills) is flared or collected and burned to produce heat or power.
Here is a paper by Mark Howden claiming:
Cotton (Gossypium spp.) and canola (Brassica spp.) are significant crops worldwide. Vegetable oil extracted from the seed of these crops offers the potential to reduce greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) through conversion into biodiesel to displace GHG associated with fossil-fuel diesel, or, by feeding the oil to cattle to reduce enteric methane emissions.
See https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283507124_What_is_the_best_use_of_oil_from_cotton_Gossypium_spp_and_canola_Brassica_spp_for_reducing_net_greenhouse_gas_emissions-_biodiesel_or_as_a_feed_for_cattle
The Earth’s climate is on a trajectory. It started at the Earth’s formation and ends when the Earth is swallowed by the Sun. On a trajectory, at no time are any two points exactly the same. Climate changes.
I’m a strong proponent of global warming. There’s plenty of evidence that the alternative is much, much worse. And it costs me a good bit of coin to Snowbird in Florida.
Aren’t we going to crash into the Andromeda Galaxy before then? That won’t be good.
There is a lot of space between the stars. Crashing into the Andromeda Galaxy will be an event that is all but unnoticeable for most stars. There will be a few stars that will be flung out of the resultant galaxy, but that will be an even so slow in developing that even if the population of a planet in that solar system were still in the stone age, they would still have plenty of time to develop vehicles capable of crossing the void and move their entire civilization before their sun was complete expelled.
Might survive it. Depends — if the solar system is thrown out of the maelstrom in the center (far out into the “tails” of such collisions), might do OK & just watch the radiation-filled show from afar. By that time tho, hopefully should be able to travel outward regardless.
But are we sure the hypothesis that the Earth will be consumed by the expanding Sun? The Sun has been expanding constantly and the global temperature record of interglacials tend to average 22 degrees Celsius, with anomalies of glacial periods that average around 12 degrees Celsius and both have fluctuations that tend to be Solar Cycles of various intensities. We only have an observed record – that is sketchy going back a few hundred years – and the measurements of our orbit is younger than that. It would make more sense to conclude that our orbit expands along with the expansion of the Sun.
And by the way, if the Sun is able to expand, why can’t the Expanding Earth be feasible? Just because Earth formed a crust, doesn’t mean the same physics are not at play. I just don’t buy it that subduction and orogeny answers the plate tectonics movements. And it doesn’t answer the Earth going from around 13 hours to 24 hours or that space dust, meteors and comets has increased the size of Earth.
D-K syndrome is strong with this one.
The expansion of the sun as predicted by current theory is event measured in 100’s of millions of years.
Please spend a few minutes studying why astrophysicists expect the sun to expand, and then spend a few milli-seconds contemplating how none of these processes are in operation here on earth.
So the fact that plate subduction has been observed is not sufficient to convince you that it is happening.
The Earth’s rotation slowed down as it transferred that momentum to the moon.
Yes, infalling debris has increased the size of the earth. But the size of the earth is so big compared to the amount of material being added that it’s not measurable by modern instruments.
And even a bigger earth would be subsumed. Geez.
“…it doesn’t answer the Earth going from around 13 hours to 24 hours…”
Some say “from around 6 hours” and the “why” is answered: the moon’s a drag.
Barring some other catastrophe, days will lengthen until both Earth and Moon are tidally locked, like Pluto and Charon.
Longer days and a more distant moon will definitely affect the weather.
The Warmists are the climate change deniers. They say that the climate would be exactly the same as 1800 if not for man’s CO2 emissions. They deny that the climate could be changing all on its own. In fact, for all we know, in the absence of humans on earth, it might actually be warmer, but I suspect it would be exactly the same because we just aren’t that significant in such a huge system.
“The Warmists are the climate change deniers. They say that the climate would be exactly the same as 1800 if not for man’s CO2 emissions. They deny that the climate could be changing all on its own.”
False. Look at the chart showing forcings used in climate models. Note the plot of natural forcings – it is certainly not a flat line/constant. Note non CO2 related forcings such as land use. Once again, certainly not a flat line/constant.
https://data.giss.nasa.gov/modelforce/
And models are never wrong, look how well their projections did on the pause.
“look how well their projections did on the pause.”
Because they couldn’t do.
By definition.
Reason?
The single line model projections you see on a graph are the mean of a series of model runs. An ensemble.
The individual variations in up/downs therefor get averaged out.
BUT, of course in the case of the pause – it was caused by NV. The lengthy -ve PDO/ENSO regime that gave us a cooler equatorial Pacific for such a lengthy time.
There is no (current) way for us to forecast that.
Averaging the results of multiple models and runs and expecting information is an heretical misuse of the scientific method. Model projections are not any kind of prediction. Also, the error inherent in any model of a chaotic system drives the error to the physical limts of the model in relatively few interations.
Philo ==> I quite agree — see mine at Dr. Curry’s: Lorenz Validated
‘lengthy -ve PDO/ENSO regime that gave us a cooler equatorial Pacific for such a lengthy time. There is no (current) way for us to forecast that.’ So you admit a natural event is stronger than your “Co2 Rules”
The average of garbage is garbage.
Only 95% of the models have been wrong… 😎
Why not simply model the models to see which is right.
No! 97% of the models. 97 and 42 are the magic numbers.
If 75 responses out of 15000 surveys constitute 97%, then why can’t invented forcing charts prove the climate models?
Mark, you forget that the survey reported 75 came from a subset of 77 respondents (97%) who self-identified as climate scientists. The rest were mere geologists, chemists, physicists, engineers, etc – you know, people with careers in disciplines that have not been taken over by rent-seekers.
ray boorman
False.
The 1300 odd self-selected people (of all disciples in the organization) who actually returned the five question survey were SCREENED bywhether they worked for government laboratories or in approved academia bureaucracies.
Those left were then ranked according to how many papers each was credited writing, or being listed as a co-author. (This favors government department heads, lab heads, and approving officials in the funding chain, since THEY approve the grants for the next year’s budget, and they approve the papers released by their agencies.) .
With only 97 surviving this pruning and culling, only TWO questions were selected for the “survey of all scientists” you claim is authoritative:
1. Is the earth climate recently warming?
2. Is mankind responsible for some part of that warming?
And, in fact, I too – like the vast majority of those reading this article today – would firmly answer “Yes!” to both questions!
Open questions of course, remain:
How much has the earth warmed recently?
How is that warming properly and accurately measured?
Is a single average global temperature an appropriate measure of the earth’s climate?
and how much of the recent warming is due to man’s influence?
But 97% of the earth’s bureaucratic agencies and politicians deny those questions are relevant to the 3.0 trillion each year they can take as carbon taxes from the industrial Western nations, and the 30 trillion in carbons futures trading the international bankers want to process.
David Middleton
97%, surely.
Chris, your relying on circular evidence from highly motivated sources actually makes the skeptic case.
Thanks.
It’s not circular evidence. If you don’t believe, it fine. But it’s not circular.
Chris: the difference between you and most of us here is that you believe but we think.
Mardler – rubbish. This is a grouthink site. Paywalled papers that support AGW which are posted here are criticized even before they have been read. How exactly is that thinking?
An analogy might be going out on a blind date. You see this hunchback, with a patch over one eye, limping over towards you, and you have a pretty good idea of what is behind the ‘paywall.’ If you want to spend the evening with that person, more power to you. But most would conclude that they already know enough to make a judgment.
Clyde, except that the paywall summaries are not like that. Nice strawman, though.
Chris ==> I write quite a few essays on studies here and would never ever write about a study that I didn’t have a full-text copy of, which I have read start to finish, and of which I have read the Supplementals.
To do so would be a waste of my time and the time of the readers.
It is a Journalistic Crime to write about a Scientific Finding from the university press release, a “news story about”, or an abstract.
Kip, then you are the exception. Do this – next time there is a paywalled paper posted on WUWT that supports the AGW position, read the comments.
Chris ==> I am not the official appointed WUWT Apologetic. I do read every WUWT essay that attracts my interest. If you’ve been following here from the start, you’ll see that some of my writing strikes readers as too close to “the enemy”….
Chris
I can barely think of a paywalled paper I can’t get hold of by other means.
That’s the difference between you and Chris. You are smart enough to find other methods, while Chris assumes that anyone who doesn’t agree with him has already proven himself an idiot.
Chris, just reading the summary and methodology of these papers is sufficient to disprove most of them.
Of course you won’t ever question any paper that supports what you want to believe.
You have to remember that in Chris’s mind, anything that supports AGW is proven beyond questioning.
Merely questioning his pronouncements is sufficient to prove that you are a science denier.
A point being missed is, most people are outside the actual scientific research and studies. They are routinely pumped with the constant message of the CAGW alarmist narrative. They rely entirely on what they are told, and given no opportunity to hear counter argument. They don’t understand the issues, but are happy to make the accusation of ”Dnyr” anyway. Usually, a few minuets of enlightenment gets them backpedaling and then the few soundbites they know are put to rest too.
Again, most people simply aren’t interested enough to jump in any deeper than just repeating what they’ve been told. (Only now, they are repeating what I told them. :).)
This whole CAGW/ Climate change alarm lives or dies according to the political will behind it. Once it looses the popular public support, it is over. That just takes time. People are tired of being told the sky is falling.
Eamon ==> Truthfully, many people don’t have the background scientific knowledge necessary to read even abstracts — these people depend on Honest Brokers of scientific knowledge to interpret the studies for them.
Some of the authors here try to do this — it is not an easy task and is very time consuming.
That said, many/most people are more comfortable going with whatever they perceive as the flow in their peer group.
Models. They’re not data Chris. And they’re, um, crap.
And what’s your evidence, Andy?
Evidence of what Chris?
Chris
The sceptics evidence is that after at least 40 years of claims of imminent catastrophe, nothing has happened.
And as its you alarmists who are making these insane claims, it’s up to you to provide the evidence.
We are sceptical of anything you say because you can’t empirically demonstrate the underlying claim that CO2 causes global warming.
The fact that the models have proven that they can’t model climate.
PS: If they can’t model the earth regionally, they aren’t modeling the earth. The claim that the models can be wrong for each and every region, but still be right for the earth as a whole may be enough to satisfy the acolytes, but it just shows that you aren’t doing science.
And after the virgin was sacrificed to the volcano, the eruption stopped, ergo …
https://www.svds.com/avoiding-common-mistakes-with-time-series/
Chris
Show us the empirical evidence that demonstrates CO2 causes the planet to warm.
Can’t do it, can you Chris.
Here’s a good start
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://static.berkeleyearth.org/pdf/annual-with-forcing.pdf
Simon
I get a graph, which proves nothing. Try again.
Sorry…. maybe learn to read it.
Simon
Perhaps you should learn that a graph with no supporting narrative is worthless.
The self delusion is strong in this one.
The chart of forcings used in climate models was invented by the same people who created the climate models, and the values in them were picked to help the climate models produce that the politicians were paying for.
Another vague hand-waving post from MarkW. No substance or detail whatsoever.
The second sentence in the summary of your referenced article states: “Note that the forcings are estimates that may be revised as new information or better understandings of the source data become available”
In other words, the basis for the supposedly accurate models, is itself an unknown, as the summary states, “Quantifiying the actual forcing within a global climate model is quite complicated and can depend on the baseline climate state. This is therefore an additional source of uncertainty.”
Regardless, no model can be definitive unless it is verified with actual, unbiased data. That is not what is happening. Unfortunately too many people (some of them, even more unfortunately, are “scientists”). Instead the data is manipulated, often to come closer to the models and even adjusted data doesn’t match the models very well. A purely observational science like climate “science’ (in quotes becuuse very little of what is labelled climate “science” these days is actually science) is difficult since controlled experiments with well defined initial conditions are impossible. To take then easy way and create some models, then claim they represent the real world is not real science. To be real science the model must describe the exact measurements to be made and any averages, etc. which the model is to match. This is not even attempted.
A final point: No-one should be disrupting the global economy and trying to eliminate the source of energy which drives modern society without an iron clad case that the disruption will definitely accomplish an essential goal and that the intended solution will not cause more problems than it causes. In other terms, the precautionary principle operates in exactly the opposite direction from that claimed by the warmists. The current situation seems to me like demanding everyone undergo chemotherapy because they might contract cancer.
False. Look at the chart showing forcings used in climate models
When the models actually can model the Earth’s climate and make predictions/projections that actually are accurate, then and only then can you be taken seriously when saying to look at anything to do with the climate models. As the models and their predictions/projections have consistently and spectacularly failed, they (and you) are a joke.
Do we want the temperature to be the same as the early 1800s?
The Little Ice Age, cold weather, exacerbated by volcanic eruptions.
The year without a summer in 1816.
Give me the present climate any time.
Incidentally the UK hot spell has broken and we are starting to get some proper rain, just in time for the August Bank Holiday! I just hope it knows when to stop!
Irrelevant question, Stephen. Earth to Stephen, it’s not the early 1800s right now.
No it’s not, thankfully. It’s warmer now, which is much better for humanity. Hopefully it’ll continue to get warmer.
Warmer is better for humanity in Canada and Russia. It’s certainly not better for farmers in Australia, for folks in Africa, for folks in India, or Pakistan, or Bangladesh.
As always, Chris projects his own feelings onto others.
Regardless, even the IPCC has admitted that almost all of the warming is going to be in the polar regions. Where there is lots of H2O in the atmosphere, CO2 has little, if any impact.
Chris
What a lot of regurgitated warmist nonsense. Deserts and tropical rain forests exist at the same latitudes on the planet.
Folks in India are currently suffering a bad monsoon, not excess heat. Bangladesh frequently suffers the same.
Australia? “‘Water as far as the eye can see’ as floods hit Australia’s Queensland” https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-floods/water-as-far-as-the-eye-can-see-as-floods-hit-australias-queensland-idUSKCN1GL100
Indeed, they are common enough that the government issues a flood management leaflet. Not seen one of those in the UK. http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/flood/EMA_Floods_warning_preparedness_safety.pdf
London is further north than most major Canadian cities, including Vancouver, Montreal, Quebec City, and Toronto. If we get a few weeks of freezing weather in the UK it’s considered a catastrophe.
So just how is climate change supposed to affect the UK? It shouldn’t be as warm as it is, but it is. And I’m well aware of the Gulf stream – the North Atlantic conveyor belt which was supposed to collapse a few years back. Another barmy alarmist prediction that failed to happen.
HotScot -news flash, Australia is mostly in drought. From your article: Water could take weeks to recede from the flatter country covered further west, where it has been welcomed in a region gripped by severe drought.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-drought-impact-graphic/farming-impact-of-australias-worst-drought-in-living-memory-idUSKBN1KR060
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/australia-boosts-aid-dry-farm-billion-drought-hit-farmers-10631000
Chris
Australia is frequently “gripped by severe drought”. It a feature of the country exacerbated only by idiots like you reading and believing the latest MSM sensationalist headline.
HotScot said: “Australia is frequently “gripped by severe drought”. It a feature of the country exacerbated only by idiots like you reading and believing the latest MSM sensationalist headline.”
Another 3rd grade level analysis. “Australia has always had drought, always will.” “The climate has always changed, always will.” How incredibly uncurious of you. Why not dive deeper to see if drought is worsening and why?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-drought-impact-graphic/farming-impact-of-australias-worst-drought-in-living-memory-idUSKBN1KR060
Australian farmers, who are very conservative by nature, believe AGW is real. But hey, HotScot knows more than the folks on the ground who are experiencing it firsthand. https://www.heraldsun.com.au/rendezview/if-pollies-wont-act-on-climate-change-farmers-will/news-story/2dcff259f4e936be14deac19f793fa58
The World War II drought (1939-45) and the recent Millennium drought (1997-2009) were not within living memory?
Chris
“Australian farmers, who are very conservative by nature, believe AGW is real.”
And you would know that, how?
Oh right, you produced yet another MSM article as evidence which says “AUSTRALIAN farmers are pretty savvy.”
Just make it up as you go along Chris. As usual.
HotScot said: “Australian farmers, who are very conservative by nature, believe AGW is real.”
And you would know that, how?
Oh right, you produced yet another MSM article as evidence which says “AUSTRALIAN farmers are pretty savvy.”
Just make it up as you go along Chris. As usual.”
No, I spent time reading articles about surveys of Australian farmers. What’s your evidence to the contrary?
https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/farmers-want-action-on-climate-change-new-survey-shows/news-story/b4f1bc575617805fd53ead66b21e6347
Chris
So you produce yet another MSM article.
FFS Chris. Give it up, the whole subject is too confusing for you.
“HotScot -news flash, Australia is mostly in drought”
That’s not a newsflash, it’s old news. Australia has always had drought issues, and likely always will. That’s it’s natural climate. Why do you deny climatic history?
Chris,
It is a tenet of climate change aka global warming that the major temperature increase will occur in polar regions with little temperature change in tropical regions. Hence the phasing out of “global warming” for the more nebulous “climate change”.
The tropical climate(-15 to +15 latitude) at sea level is controlled by the evaporation of water and limited to a range roughly 20-40degC. Of course smaller areas(less than the size range of the climate model grid) can have local conditions that extend that range.
Warmer means wetter, so they’ll be just fine
Olympic class side stepping there Chris, I give you a 9 out of 10 for it.
The original study/survey that started the 97% meme was:
Examining the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change
There were two questions:
Based on my answers
“Yes global temperatures have risen and human
activity, not just CO2, should be a factor.”
I would fall into the 97%, however, I don’t agree that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide or methane constitute a problem that requires me or anyone else to change their basic life style, but Doran and Zimmerman didn’t ask that, so their study is essentially meaningless as it applies to me.
Then we get into the propaganda, data manipulation, politics, censorship, bullshit and lies.
My question, from when Doran and Zimmerman published, was what was their definition of the somewhat ambiguous word “significant”. Presumably they studied science and statistics and at the start were surveying 10,000 geo-scientists.
When interpreted in the vernacular, a majority of people assume “significant” means “a measurably LARGE amount” (e.g. The venture produced significant profits.).
A statistician would answer ” yes, CO2 is a CONTRIBUTING factor”, no matter how small, if its effect is something other than mere chance. (both definitions from Merriam Webster).
The alarmists (including former President Obama) have then expanded the response to “is CO2 a ‘significant’ CONTRIBUTING factor” to mean it is the ONLY factor.
(And they added a bonus interpretation: “97% of scientists think the temperature rise will be CATASTROPHIC”, a point not included in the survey!)
Don’t forget Cook’s wonky work.
Steve ==> Very nice — the “consensus” does come down to What Are They Really Counting?
The EXACT questions are really really important.
They actually spend a lot of time trying to understand climate denial. They appear to be very proud of their status as “scientists” and expect some RESPECT! Here is a bibliography of climate denialism research where their inability to accept skepticism is apparent.
https://tambonthongchai.com/2018/06/22/climate-change-denial-research/
43 studies that have wasted taxpayer dollars on asking why a fairy tale isn’t believed. Boggles the mind.
Not when you consider this is marketing, not science. The global warming people failed in proving their case, so now they are desperately trying to market a lemon. Taxpayer dollars are used because taxpayer dollars are the ultimate goal of the global warming crew. Temperatures have nothing to do with the whole scam.
We need a simple test to determine whether someone is a witch or not. I mean a denier. Let’s see, a duck floats…
So do very small stones.
She turned me into a newt!
I got bettah!
Yes, & if the water rejected her by allowing her body to float proving she is a witch, then they burn the poor girl tied to a stake! Who says there is no justice in this world? 😉
If… she… weighs the same as a duck.. she’s made of wood.
And therefore?
A witch!A Denier!Q “Why do you deny climate change?”
A Can you ask a sensible question so that I’m not wasting my time explaining my self to a gullible twit.
A: I get this question all the time. Would you summarize my position?
That’s something a denier would say!
In my experience when this question is asked you are not being asked whether you believe in climate change. Often what is actually being asked is whether you believe in imminent cataclysmic temperature and environmental effects from CO2 level increases.
When asked if you believe in Climate Change, you should ask the questioner just exactly what they mean by Climate Change because there is more than one description for climate change. The questioner needs to get more specific.
The real deniers are the alarmists who deny natural variability.
Exactly. The climate has warmed. What proportion of the warming is due to natural causes and what is anthropogenic is not quantifiable. To claim otherwise is to deny the basics of science. We are all entitled to a guess. It would be nice if those using models to make their guess could acknowledge that it is just that, another guess.
Up above, Chris claims that we know exactly what all the forcings are with great precision.
Using as his evidence a paper which states that the forcings are “estimates”, “subject to change” and a weak link in the modeling.
Of course it’s an estimate. Tell me, Doug, how would you precisely measure the change in global forcing due to changes in farming practices (for example, the switch from tilling to zero tilling)? Or the impact of aerosols in the atmosphere?
We don’t have a second Earth where we can do lab experiments, switching knobs to eliminate aerosols from the environment, and then see how that impacts forcing. Then switching another know to roll back changes in farm practices to see that impact.
So scientists take measurements – for example, looking at the change in albedo and surface level humidity due to changes in farming practices – and then extrapolate that. Is it precise out to the nth degree? No, but it’s a good estimate.
And if you say it is not, explain why. And explain what alternative method you would propose to better measure or estimate forcings.
” It would be nice if those using models to make their guess could acknowledge that it is just that, another guess.”
And they could also acknowledge that their scary CAGW models don’t match reality.
or maybe forgot to take a stat course in college.
https://tambonthongchai.com/2018/05/27/spurious-correlations-in-climate-science-2/
True. Many years ago I began referring to them as “natural climate change deniers.”
And adopted a slogan: “Climate change, that’s what climate does.”
commieBob – and who are they? Do you just assume that alarmists deny natural variability?
Exhibit ‘A’ would be Dr. Michael Mann who, with his bogus hockey stick, tried to wipe out all the natural variability in the last millennium.
So Kristi, how much of the current warming is natural and how much man-made? Real data please, not models. I await your answer.
Why not present your data first, Andy?
I don’t need to. I’m not making wild claims about increasing CO2 levels driving us towards thermageddon.
Chris, have you got the data that shows the amount of natural and amount of man-made warming? Cos if you haven’t, you’ve got no reason to get your knickers in a twist about a totally beneficial trace gas #plamtfood
Andy,
‘I’m not making wild claims about increasing CO2 levels driving us towards thermageddon.’
Nor did I.
I don’t know how much is man-made and how much is natural. I’m not sure anyone claims to know that amount.
Given the FACT that CO2 concentrations have been at levels that are 10 to 15 times then the levels we are enjoying now, with temperatures that were the same as now, and lower, it’s hard to believe that adding a few hundred ppm is going to have much of an affect.
The sun emitted less radiation in the past.
The sun gains power by one percent every 110 million years.
Thus, when CO2 was about 4500 ppm (11 times now) 440 million years ago, the sun was 96% as powerful as now, yet there was an ice age.
Kristi, I appreciate your answer”I don’t know how much is man-made and how much is natural.” This makes you a lukewarmer and not an alarmist.
The alarmists, most prominently, are the IPCC and people like M.Mann who claim, erroneously, that CO2 is the control knob.
This makes you not unlike perhaps the majority of people who frequent this blog. I wish people here would focus on that and stop demonizing those that maybe show some skepticism about some forms of skepticism itself. Skepticism should work both ways. Those claiming to be skeptics should be less sensitive about showing that their skepticism is based on facts.
Spalding Craft,
I’m not sure what you mean by “control knob.” I very highly doubt Mann would deny that there is natural variation, if that’s what you mean.
I want to be clear about my position. I do believe that CO2 has an effect on global climate. I also believe that there is good evidence that some of the effects of increased CO2 in the atmosphere are negative, and that it will become more apparent over time. Some effects are also positive, and the effects are/will be regionally variable. But the faster the global temperature rises, and the more its does so, the harder it will be for humans and non-human biota to adapt.
There has always been, and always will be natural variation. I believe it’s likely that the variation will become more extreme because of the additional effects of global warming.
There is significant evidence that precipitation episodes are becoming more intense. There is some evidence that droughts are becoming more prolonged, but for various reasons this is hard to determine with confidence. Record high temperatures are becoming more common relative to their likelihood, and this is a health risk. Plants and animals are responding to changed climate. There is some evidence that hurricanes are becoming more intense. Apparently tornadoes are more often occurring in clusters, though overall they are not becoming more common.
(See http://www.pnas.org/content/108/44/17905 for an interesting analysis of the likelihood of record temperatures – or http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/11/on-record-breaking-extremes/ for a more accessible explanation)
(This is an article about attribution of weather extremes to climate change. Those who believe that all computer models of climate are bunk won’t be interested – you don’t have to tell me. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05849-9)
There are varying amounts of evidence that such extremes have become more common. I think it’s likely that the evidence will become stronger – although perhaps not in the next few decades, since there is a weakening of solar irradiation expected.
Kristi,
Have you really not read these 2010 and 2013 papers on CO2 as the “control knob” on climate? Note please the authors.
Atmospheric CO2: Principal Control Knob Governing Earth’s Temperature
Andrew A. Lacis*, Gavin A. Schmidt, David Rind, Reto A. Ruedy
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/330/6002/356
The role of long-lived greenhouse gases as principal LW control knob that governs the global surface temperature for past and future climate change
Andrew A. Lacis, James E. Hansen, Gary L. Russell, Valdar Oinas & Jeffrey Jonas
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3402/tellusb.v65i0.19734@zelb20.2013.65.issue-s1
Good – so you admit we’ve got no grounds to worry about CAGW
Nope, I don’t “admit” that.
Chris,
Not surprisingly, you demonstrate that you don’t understand how science works.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extraordinary_claims_require_extraordinary_evidence
Occam’s Razor suggests that the post-glacial warming is adequately explanatory for the post-industrial warming, and unless there is extraordinary evidence to the contrary one should accept that “There is nothing to see here. Move on!”
Clyde,
How does post-glacial warming explain post-industrial warming? Even if the warming were continuous, that wouldn’t *explain* anything… but it wasn’t. As I said elsewhere, even the graphs provided by Kip show that there were about 150 years before 1900 where there is no increasing temperature trend.
The claim that the Earth has been generally warming since about 1900 (with natural ups and downs) is not extraordinary at all. It’s supported by data. The simplest explanation is increased atmospheric CO2: it provides theoretical and observational evidence, and there is no other plausible mechanism to account for it. Occam’s Razor would support that sooner than the claim that the majority of the world’s climate scientists are colluding to commit fraud, or are victims of “groupthink,” supporting a partisan agenda to institute global government. Would skeptics of AGW claim that Exxon (aka Humble) scientists in the 1970-80s were in on it, too?
“The simplest explanation is increased atmospheric CO2”
The simplest explanation is the null hypotheses which is to say it is a natural change in the climate. Given that the climate has been at least this hot in the past makes natural climate change a plausible explanation. Any other explanation requires proof that it exists and that it is strong enough to override natural changes in the climate.
RicDre, it also requires proof that whatever caused the recent warming isn’t in operation this time as well.
Without the aid of CO2, the planet has been warmer than it is at present for over 90% of the last 10K years. It takes a will suspension of disbelief to believe that CO2 is the only possible explanation for the current, mild, and extremely welcome warming.
“RicDre, it also requires proof that whatever caused the recent warming isn’t in operation this time as well.”
Good Point.
RicDre,
The null hypothesis is random variability without any trend. Any trend in climate change has something driving it.
AGW doesn’t “override” anything. The natural variation is there, but AGW has an additional effect. If the natural trend is toward cooling, you might see no temperature trend if AGW cancels it out. Natural high temps could become higher through the effects of AGW (though this depends of region, since AGW doesn’t always make it hotter everywhere.)
Kristi,
Nope. The null hypothesis isn’t random.
It is that nothing special is happening now outside of previously observed natural fluctuations, which are cyclical on many time scales. Hence, no special explanation or forcing need be invoked.
The null hypothesis can’t be rejected.
The null hypothesis has not been proven with regards to the climate changes we are experiencing. Whenever I asked commenters here why it is warming now, they say “we have no idea.” So, in other words, they don’t know the cause. But they know with absolute certainty that nearly all of it is natural.
If the simplest explanation was CO2 as you have been trained to believe, then temperature levels would have moved up in lock step with CO2 levels.
The reality is that there has been no correlation between CO2 levels and temperatures over the last 200 years. Nor has there been at any time interval you care to investigate.
The majority of the world’s climate scientists aren’t in on it. As you would see if you actually examined their work.
As to your willingness to spread and believe lies, your last sentence condemns you again. For you the data doesn’t matter, it’s all a matter of believing what you have been told to believe.
PS: The claim that Exxon scientists bought into the scam is easily disproven by just reading what they wrote. Something that you have never bothered to do.
“If the simplest explanation was CO2 as you have been trained to believe, then temperature levels would have moved up in lock step with CO2 levels.”
Only if you’re dumb enough to think there’s no natural variation.
Wrong again, MarkW, as usual.
“The claim that the Earth has been generally warming since about 1900 (with natural ups and downs) is not extraordinary at all.”
Saying it has generally been warming since 1900 is a little misleading. What actually happened is the climate warmed from 1910 to 1940, then the climate cooled from 1940 to 1980, reaching nearly the same low as was reached in 1910, and then the climate warmed from 1980 to the present at the same magnitude as the warming from 1910 to 1940, and to date, the current temperatures have not exceeded the tempertures in the 1930’s.
So the “Ups and Downs” are much more important to the story than alarmists make them out to be.
The “generally warming” meme is misleading. It has not been generally warming since 1900. That implies a steady upward increase in temperatures which is just not happening, except in the bogus, bastardized surface temperature charts.
Here’s the Hansen 1999 chart, it doesn’t show “general warming”. Combine this chart with the UAH satellite chart for the full picture on the temperature trend.
Remember these key points: 1934 was 0.5C warmer than 1998, acording to Hansen 1999, which makes 1934 0.4C warmer than 2016, the socalled “Hottest Year Evah!”, according to UAH, which means we have been in a temperature downtrend since the 1930’s. Calling it “general warming” is a distortion of reality.
And the UAH satellite chart:
That’s U.S. Temperature.
The U.S. temperature profile looks just like the unmodified temperature profile of other areas around the world such as Finland (see chart below), which is halfway around the world from the U.S. yet the Finland chart shows the 1930’s as being as warm or warmer than subsequent years, just like the U.S. temperature chart (Hansen 1999) I used.
Unmodified temperature charts from around the world look similar to the Hansen 1999 U.S. chart. None of the unmodified charts look like the bogus, bastardized Hockey Stick surface temperature charts that are used to sell the CAGW narrative.
So which temperature profile best represents reality? The U.S. chart, which resembles unmodified charts from around the world, or the bogus Hockey Stick chart which doesn’t resemble anything other than itself?
The Hockey Stick chart does resemble the CO2 chart but that is a deliberate modification of the temperature record to make it look like the rise of CO2 corrolates with the rising temperatures. Those Climategate co-conspirators were very clever with their fraud, but not clever enough. They left the old records still available. Now the alarmists want to act like the old records have no value. And we know why: Because they want us to bleive their lies and worship the Hockey Stick.
It’s up to those who are demanding that the entire world’s economy be changed to provide evidence that this change is necessary.
@MarkW
Hear, hear 🙂
The models say that 3 times as much warming should have occurred from 1999-2008 than actually occurred.
Since 1998, 95% of the models predicted more warming than actually occured.
Remote Sensing Systems
The “climate” (30-yr avg. temp.) is not particularly anomalous.
It’s clearly obvious that the models underestimate natural variability and/or overestimate climate sensitivity to CO2.
Why do your charts stop in 2008? That’s 10 years ago.
Kaufmann et al. 2011 ends in 2008 because that’s what they modeled: 1999-2008, 1 decade.
The RSS graph is through 2017.
My graph is through about 2000 because it is a 30 year running average in order to reflect climate rather than weather and make the resolution of HadCRUT4 instrumental reconstruction somewhat comparable to the resolution of the proxy reconstruction.
The obvious thing to do would be to provide more recent data, and a graph that didn’t start in 1998. Damages your credibility.
Your graph is for the NH only. Regardless, the rate of rise does indeed look exceptional compared to the reconstruction.
Isn’t the yellow graph TLT? Sure would be nice if you provided a source. Besides, the fact that part of the observations are outside the 95% range doesn’t mean “95% of the models predicted more warming than actually occured”
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/are-95-climate-models-linking-human-co%E2%82%82-emissions-and-global-warming-error
This is also a nice discussion of models and natural variability.
“There is a saying in science that ‘all models are wrong, but some models are useful’. In simulating any complex system, any model will fail to reproduce all facets of the system perfectly.
…’To understand what’s happening, it is critical to realise that the climate changes for a number of reasons in addition to CO₂. These include solar variations, volcanic eruptions and human aerosol emissions.
“The influence of all these ‘climate drivers’ are included in modern climate models. On top of this, our climate also changes as a result of natural and largely random fluctuations – like the El Nino Southern Oscillation, ENSO and the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation, [IPO] – that can redistribute heat to the deep ocean (thereby masking surface warming).
“Such fluctuations are unpredictable beyond a few months (or possibly years), being triggered by atmospheric and oceanic weather systems. So while models do generate fluctuations like ENSO and IPO, in centennial scale simulations they don’t (and wouldn’t be expected to) occur at the same time as they do in observations.”
Other graphs:

https://twitter.com/rahmstorf/status/698380997222510592
http://www.realclimate.org/images/compare_1950-2015.jpg
“Comparison of a large set of climate model runs (CMIP5) with several observational temperature estimates. The thick black line is the mean of all model runs. The grey region is its model spread. The dotted lines show the model mean and spread with new estimates of the climate forcings. The coloured lines are 5 different estimates of the global mean annual temperature from weather stations and sea surface temperature observations. ”
http://variable-variability.blogspot.com/2015/09/model-spread-is-not-uncertainty-nwp.html
Probably because that was all the data that was available when the graph was published in 2010! If you have an update that tells a different story, feel free to post it. However, with the exception of the exceptional 2016 El Nino, it has been pretty much ‘business as usual’ the last 10 years.
Clyde – Kristi was kind enough to do just that. It shows it has certainly not been “business as usual” for the last 10 years.
Chris,
Yes, about 5 hours after I made the suggestion, Kristi posted some graphs. As I see them, a linear regression does a reasonable job of describing the trend since the early 1960s — i.e. business as usual. Although, with the exception of the most recent El Nino event (not directly CO2 related) the last decade has been flatter than the previous decades. Therein lies the problem. The variations are unrelated to variations in CO2 emissions! To properly ascertain correlations, time series should be de-trended. Did you read the link I provided above about spurious correlations?
Picking increments of years divisible by 10 for decadal averages is an artifact of when we think Christ was born. A better approach would be to look for trends in the temperatures and select decades out of those without concern about whether the numbers are divisible by 10. Another example of how poorly climatologists analyze data!
Clyde, if global temperatures are climbing, then the baseline upon which El Nino’s occur will cause the El Nino peaks to be higher. So you can’t dismiss El Nino spikes as being unrelated or irrelevant to AGW.
You don’t know that the degree of warming in the latest El Ninos wasn’t affected by climate change.
There is variability, sure. There is not only natural variability, but variability in patterns of human actions that could influence temps. – there’s evidence that aerosols from pollution and volcanic activity caused the mid-century cooling, for example.
“Picking increments of years divisible by 10 for decadal averages is an artifact of when we think Christ was born. A better approach would be to look for trends in the temperatures and select decades out of those without concern about whether the numbers are divisible by 10. ”
You aren’t a scientist, are you?
It makes absolutely no different whether “the numbers are divisible by 10.” It’s not like climate cares what decade it is, or whether the trend is from 1993-2002. Looking for trends in temperature would bias the effect they are illustrating.
Are you Chaamjamal?
If one is going to look at the relationship between CO2 and climate statistically, many factors would have to be taken into account, which is why there are complex climate models.
Thought better of it.
MarkW ==> Thank you for your restraint.
Chris
The middle chart goes up to around now i.e. 2018.
What kind of scientist are you if you can’t see or count?
Thank you!
Technically, Kristi you are right. Most of the time, most alarmists like Mann, Hansen, Gore, Schmidt, Obama, Clinton, Merkel, Macron, Trudeau, …, do not explicitly deny natural variability. The denial is implicit. They propose the magical thinking that natural factors that were capable of driving snowball earth and hothouse earth periods in the past, have been totally overwhelmed by a 0.014% increase in a minor trace gas, even though that trace gas has been at least ten times higher in concentration during the past.
To explicitly acknowledge the implications of their alarmist premise would be self-defeating to their propaganda.
They mimimize natural variability and call anyone who disagrees with them a clumate denier.
Or even worse, a clathrate denier!
Who is “they”?
Rich Davis
My understanding is that man made CO2 as a proportion of the entire atmosphere is ~0.0012%.
Yes, probably, but I was referring to the change in CO2 concentration overall, including natural causes.
I suppose you can make the case that the magical thinking makes a distinction between harmless all-natural CO2 and deadly human-generated CO2. (Because after all, they are totally different at the metaphysical molecular scale. One has a pure and holy soul, the other is stained by the sin of human association needless to say). Maybe that’s the incantation that negates the fact that earth had CO2 levels much higher than today during ice ages.
“They propose the magical thinking that natural factors that were capable of driving snowball earth and hothouse earth periods in the past, have been totally overwhelmed by a 0.014% increase in a minor trace gas, even though that trace gas has been at least ten times higher in concentration during the past.”
No “they” dont – it is well known/accepted that orbital variations caused most large climate variations and that carbon dioxide was a feedback into the process.
O3 is also a “minor trace gas” but yet it stops the Earth frying from UV radiation.
The “past” is just that, the past, when the Earth was a very different planet,
What was the albedo?
What was the Sun’s output?
What was the continental configuration?
Ocean currents or lack of?
Oh AnthonyB, you bore me. You raise some examples of valid natural factors and then revert to the magical thinking that this time none of those factors matter. Don’t you know that CO2 is the master control knob for the climate? What difference should ocean currents or continental drift have compared to the omnipotence of CO2? Albedo and the sun? What does the sun have to do with earth’s climate? Is there CO2 in the sun? /sarc
No, natural variability has not been “overwhelmed” – that’s obvious. The effects of CO2 overlay the natural variability. It makes no sense, for example, to assume that recent el Ninos would have been as strong as they were if not for AGW. Perhaps they would have, but to assume so would be denying the possibility that natural variability is affected by AGW.
To me the term “alarmist,” applied to anyone and everyone who believes that AGW poses a problem or advocates for change, is just as bad as calling all skeptics “deniers.” In what way is Schmidt, for example, an alarmist? Does he predict a sea level rise of meters by 2050? Does he say that all hurricanes are a result of AGW? Or what? (I don’t know the answer. Serious question.)
The problem is that while “denier” may not be suitable, neither is “skeptic.” There are plenty of people who practice skepticism but accept the theory of AGW. It seems to me that many AGW “skeptics” do not apply their skepticism adequately to evidence that supports their ideas, and are very quick to condemn research that either supports or assumes AGW as fact, even if it isn’t about climate change at all.
This is the problem with labels and generalizations: few labels capture the variety of ideas held by the people to which they are applied. Some skeptics are well-defined as “deniers,” just as some alarmists are truly unrealistic and promote propaganda.
Kristi ==> If you want to know what Gavin Schmidt thinks or says, you’ll have to read his blog: RealClimate which he and other government employees create and maintain on your tax dollars.
“No, natural variability has not been “overwhelmed” – that’s obvious.”
I agree
“The effects of CO2 overlay the natural variability.”
The magnitude of this overlay is not proven and may well be zero.
“It makes no sense, for example, to assume that recent el Ninos would have been as strong as they were if not for AGW”
Null hypothesis mean anything to you Kristi?
Does it make any sense, for example, to assume that recent forest fires would have been as big as they were if not for phlogiston?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory
“The effects of CO2 overlay the natural variability.”
I am compelled to ask the question: What climate effects of CO2? Is there any evidence that CO2 is affecting the climate? No, none that I can see, and I feel confident in saying that noone will provde me with any because there is no evidence to provide
CAGW is a fantasy scenario created by the Climategate co-conspriators (and you know who you are). They have perpetrated a fraud on the world.
Tom, a link to this was already posted below.
And those who deny that skeptics have valid points because they question the consensus.
I have often been asked “Why do you deny climate change?” I am always stumped by the question. It is rather like being asked “Why do you torture innocent animals?” The questioner is not merely asking for information, they are always making an accusation…
Yes, that question, or accusation, is a real insult on many levels assuming you are just some ignorant na-zi sympathizer. It is not only an insult, but also comes from a position of some type of intellectual or moral superiority, before they have even started a discussion to actually know what your position is. And then there is the Natural Variation issue, in that the climate is always, and has always been changing. That is what climate does, and is implicitly changing otherwise it wouldn’t even really be climate. Climate and weather are dynamic processes and by default they are always changing. Usually going in some sort of cycle. We seek to truthfully understand why it changes, when and how much. I feel the same way that it is a loaded statement, and sort of an ignorant one too. Sort of like asking someone if they believe in climate change…it is like asking someone if they believe in winter.
Oy vey. The questioner may have phrased it poorly, but honestly wanted to know. To read into it all kinds of hidden meanings could simply be part of YOUR thought processes, not theirs. It depends on how it’s asked.
Yes Kristi, you just proved my point…wanting to demonize someone that doesn’t hold your exact world view.
You are both right. Some alarmists are on a high horse while others are simply curious about skeptics.
Alan Tomalty said:
“Some alarmists are on a high horse while others are simply curious about skeptics.”
And, a lot of them aren’t alarmists. I get called an alarmist. Nick Stokes gets called an alarmist.
When I ask what have either of us done that is alarmist, the usual answer is something along the lines of “well, you refuse to acknowledge that whatever I declare to be a hoax is a hoax, so therefore you are alarmist!”
No alarm = no problem.
So, let’s give up the obsession with CO2, stop wasting trillions on green crap, and spend it instead on raising the world’s poor out of poverty and misery.
I would call you both true believers, not alarmists.
Nick just views the data from a different perspective.
A VERY different perspective. Such as when one is standing on their head!
That actually earmed a +1.
Anybody that believes in CAGW is by definition an alarmist. If you only believe in AGW then there is no problem and why are the politicians trying to limit CO2 increases? Why does this website even exist if there are no alarmists? It is because all the politicians and media and people like yourself think the world has a problem. THE WORLD DOES NOT HAVE A PROBLEM. The atmosphere needs more CO2 NOT less. If you disagree with what I am saying you are an alarmist.
Does one have to predict catastrophe to believe there is a problem? Are those who believe the latest hurricane is a sign of global warming the same as those who believe the potential impacts of AGW should be considered in policy?
Are those who automatically dismiss all evidence of global warming properly called “skeptics”? What about those who refuse to believe that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere can have any effect on global temperatures?
It’s a logical fallacy to think that people fall into discrete camps that can be defined by labels. Labels are simply a convenience; it’s when people fail to recognize this that problems arise.
If skeptics want to stop being called “deniers” because the term is inappropriate, they should also stop calling “alarmists” anyone who believes AGW is not wholly benign. Why expect others to be reasonable when you are not reasonable yourself?
Kristi ==> Would you help out the conversation by prefacing your comments with some kind of label as to whom you are addressing?
You can’t count on the threads to make this plain.
If you are not addressing someone in particular, then you should start a new comment (use form at top of the comment section).
Otherwise, it is like shouting into a group of people gathered at a party….
I know, not enough other people do it, but it really needs to be done….thanks.
(Other commenters take note — this applies to almost everyone here.)
“Kristi ==> Would you help out the conversation by prefacing your comments with some kind of label as to whom you are addressing?
You can’t count on the threads to make this plain.”
Good point. Posts on these new threads can sometime bounce around out of sequence and it is sometimes difficult to know which post is addressing what.
It would help to put a name or a quote in the post to let others know what you are referring to.
Kip – Yes, fair enough. I forget sometimes.
“If skeptics want to stop being called ‘deniers’ because the term is inappropriate, they should also stop calling ‘alarmists’ anyone who believes AGW is not wholly benign. Why expect others to be reasonable when you are not reasonable yourself?”
I agree with this comment, though I don’t think skeptics fired the first shot in this name-calling battle. In any case, I believe most skeptics would love to have a civil Red-Team/Blue-Team discussion of this issue but there appears to be much less enthusiasm for this kind of discussion among the Global Warming proponents.
The term “denier” was chosen because of its application to holocaust deniers. It’s an intentionally inflammatory term that is meant in a derogatory manner.
The term “alarmist” is merely descriptive, in an accurate manner.
Kristi,
I suggest that you do an online search and see when the two terms (denier & alarmist) first started showing up. My sense is that “alarmist” was a response to being called “denier.”
My definition of a “skeptic” would be anyone who calls out the consensus claims, regardless of the particular claim.
Clyde,
“My definition of a “skeptic” would be anyone who calls out the consensus claims, regardless of the particular claim.”
That says a lot. It doesn’t matter what the claims, skeptics are going to “call it out”? What does that mean, exactly? Why would a skeptic only do this with “consensus” claims? Doesn’t that indicate bias?
I don’t care which came first, denier or alarmist. Reacting by finding a comparable insult is just lowering oneself to the opposition’s level.
If you are alarmed enough to demand that CO2 production be radically curtailed, then you are an alarmist.
Philip Schaeffer
The easy way round being called an alarmist is, of course, to produce credible empirical studies which demonstrate CO2 causes global warming. There must surely be numerous papers over the last 40 years or so.
Strangely, no one I have asked that question of can produce one including Chris and Kristi.
On that basis alone, those claiming CO2 causes climate change is an alarmist.
Maybe, HotScot, other are like me – they don’t want to waste time on you.
Kristi Silber
On the other hand, you don’t have the evidence and think its clever to evade the subject rather than say, as an honest scientist would, “You’re right HotScot, I don’t have the evidence”.
But that would just stick in your craw, wouldn’t it Kristi?
“… simply curious about skeptics.”
Like someone who can’t resist the Freak Show at a carnival?
Clyde, those are your words. Is that what you really think? How odd.
Kristi,
I consider myself to be a skeptic. I have no problem being self-deprecating if it illustrates a point.
“climate is always, and has always been changing. That is what climate does, and is implicitly changing otherwise it wouldn’t even really be climate. ”
Correct on a regional level.
Incorrect on a global level UNLESS there is an obvious driver.
More energy in OR more energy being retained.
The only one current is the latter.
To simply say it’s just climate doing what it has always done ignores 150+ years of empirical science (that CO2 is a GHG) and as such drives climate when it comes first, and amplifies change when coming second (feedback).
“wanting to demonize someone that doesn’t hold your exact world view.”
Kristi did not “demonise” you.
Just posed an alternative interpretation – you know, the word “could”?
And YOU “could” be – a child molester, a wife beater, a rapist, a stamp collector;
…now, all YOU have to do is prove that you’re not.
That’s how demonetization works.
Obviously saveenergy meant demonization, not demonetization.
Oh he’s had an auto-correct spell-check mishap, quick, let’s jump all over that so that we don’t need to acknowledge the valid point!
Thanks Rich, it’s proof of not proof reading (:<((
“Incorrect on a global level UNLESS there is an obvious driver.”
Obvious?
I’m not sure how obvious the drivers between the HCO and Minoan, Roman and Mediaeval warm periods are, let alone before those, but what you basically say is that such reasons don’t apply to last 150 years. OK, good, that’s your opinion, but showing it is obvious, is, eh, not so obviously done.
The panic button depends on believing in unprecedented, fast warming such that CO2 is explaining 150% or more of it. (See Curry-Schmidt on ‘more than half’)
Kip, thanks for this down to Earth, simple statement of your position. I largely agree and feel the same, though I don’t take climate into discussions with any greenie friends and family because they’d just become hostile for merely disagreeing on policy. So I’m not called as a denialist for supporting nuclear instead of wind and solar. I just try to vote for parties that couldn’t care less on building wind + solar. And that leaves me about one, populist possibility. Sad is that.
I don’t know about the other periods, but the MWP was not as warm as many believe if you look at the Earth as a whole.
There is evidence that it occurred at a time of higher solar radiation and lower volcanic activity, neither of which apply to the last 150 years.
I think you mean 50% or more.
The Sun is the primary Climate driver for the Earth, as demonstrated a few years back when the UK Wet Office announced a’la back page, that the Earth may experience colder than usual winters over the next 30-35 years becuase the Sun is in “shut-down” mode, but of course it wouldn’t affect long-term man-made Globul Warming. An announcement made by highly paid public sector workers around middle-age who would be merrily retired on big fat juicy pensions when the time came!
Alan the Brit
Fret not mate, the catastrophic 0.0012% of CO2 man has added to the atmosphere will overcome any effect from that puny sun.
“Incorrect on a global level UNLESS there is an obvious driver.”
You have to do the null hypothesis experimental studies to find the answer to that one. So far the climate scientists have not done this . All they have done is worship their computer models which are programmed to project warming with increased CO2. Therefore you cannot do a proper null hypothesis experiment with the computer climate models. Climate science has been reduced to hand waving and alarmism.
There are other ways to do science besides experiments testing a null hypothesis. Since we only have one Earth to study, how would you propose conducting such an experiment?
“All they have done is worship their computer models which are programmed to project warming with increased CO2” Evidence?
Science can only be done using a null hypothesis. Small scale laboratories would have to be set up with a real land surface and another one with a real water surface. The laboratories would have to be large enough to have clouds forming as in a cloud chamber and different levels of CO2 injected . If this doesnt work then it is impossible to duplicate the real earth atmosphere. But that doesnt justify spending trillions of dollars on a guess.
“Science can only be done using a null hypothesis.” That is not true. Einstein did not use a null hypothesis to construct the Theory of Special Relativity
Alan –
I see. So you create models. And separate the water from the land. And have a big heat lamp for the sun I suppose? Populate it with little tiny model people and little tiny model cornfields and forests? You could have a little choo-choo, with a bridge and a station!
Anthony, so the whole earth did not warm up between 2016 and 2017?
The whole earth does not warm up and cool down when the oceanic cycles change their phase for 30 to 60 years at a time?
What caused the little ice age?
What caused the Mideival, Roman and Minoan warm periods?
What caused the Holocene optimum?
PS, why does it have to be an obvious driver? Is it not possible that we don’t understand how climate works as well as the high priests tell us we do?
What should be obvious, but clearly eludes the consensus crew such as Anthony, is that the atmosphere is the tail and the ocean is the dog. The heat capacity of the atmosphere is trivial compared to the oceans. Short- and long-term oscillations of the ocean cool and heat the air. It doesn’t violate any physical laws or energy balance for it to be a widespread or global effect. The global atmosphere is nothing compared to the ocean.
And CO2 is the flea on the tail of the dog.
Rich,
That’s why the oceans are included in the models. It’s no news that they are a heat sink. But to say that the atmosphere is of secondary importance does not recognize its role in the energy balance of the planet as a whole. It’s like saying the oceans are more important than the variation in radiation from the Sun.
Anthony Banton
Kindly produce the “empirical” studies that demonstrate CO2 causes climate change. Nor do I mean laboratory studies or modelled examples.
And if you want a ‘laboratory’ discussion:
John Tyndall himself concluded that “water vapour is the strongest absorber of radiant heat in the atmosphere and is the principal gas controlling air temperature. Absorption by the other gases is not negligible but relatively small.”
Anthony Banton ==> “UNLESS there is an obvious driver.” What this means in plain language is “Unless we know what is causing it to change…”
We don’t know what caused past changes when the current meme, “anthropogenic CO2”, wasn’t in play.
Claiming that “but this time it is CO2″ is not a strong scientific argument. I’ll explain more in Part 2.
Kip,
“We don’t know what caused past changes when the current meme, “anthropogenic CO2”, wasn’t in play” We have some pretty good evidence-based hypotheses for at least some changes. The solar cycles are important, for example.
Kristi ==> Having hypotheses is not the same as “having some pretty good evidence”. Hypotheses, or possibilities, it could have been’s — all these are not evidence.
Of course solar cycles must affect climate — but we are not sure how, in what ways, they do so. Some think solar is the big control knob, some think we’re headed for a solar minimum and a global cooling, some think certain solar factors change the general cloudiness of Earth and control climate that way….
There are a lot of interesting guesses, about the past, the present, and the future climate. Guesses aren’t evidence and don’t count as “knowledge”.
“Correct on a regional level.
Incorrect on a global level UNLESS there is an obvious driver.
More energy in OR more energy being retained.
The only one current is the latter.
To simply say it’s just climate doing what it has always done ignores 150+ years of empirical science (that CO2 is a GHG) and as such drives climate when it comes first, and amplifies change when coming second (feedback).”
We don’t know with any real certainty what global climate, not that there is such a thing, was like in the past. We can guess, based on very imperfect proxies, but the error bars are almost always greater than the supposed differences.
Air masses move around, continents move around, jet streams move around, those are what cause changes. It gets warmer in one place, cooler in another, relatively static in others.
Earthling2,
Nonsense. That’s not what I said at all. You are missing the “may” and “could,” and I am demonizing no one. It’s natural to read meanings into others’ words, but that doesn’t mean it’s rational or correct. And what I said has nothing whatever to do with my world view.
Kristi, why do you even bother to use weasel words like ‘may’ and ‘could’ in your hypothetical reply unless your intent is to further mislead and confuse readers because of your world view that is pro alarmist. I only stated a truth that climate is always changing so that term is sort of irrelevant, if not confusing and leading a false narrative. And I also point out that it is usually done by people that view themselves as intellectually or morally superior. Which in my opinion, is you and those types that continually denigrate people who hold a different opinion on the effects of AGW. That is intellectual demonization.
Earthling2 – I continually denigrate people? I sometimes do, normally specific people who have a long history of insulting me. But I’m no match for some others around here. Why not complain about MarkW, for instance, or Lord Monckton?
I don’t believe I’m intellectually or morally superior in general. I have my strengths and weaknesses intellectually, as we all do. I don’t think about the moral angle much, except when I see moral hypocrisy (e.g. complaints about “redistribution of wealth” and assertions that rather than spend money on research, we should be helping the poor).
The Social Justice Warriors (SJW) would refer to microaggressions.
If we were SJWs, we would demand safe spaces for climate skeptics.
I find it fascinating how the so called scientist assumes that these denigrating messages are being sent because of “group membership”.
To the left, everyone is defined solely by the group they are in.
Individuality is not permitted.
MarkW,
“To the left, everyone is defined solely by the group they are in.”
Isn’t that what you just did?
Perhaps those messages are perceived as being denigrating, rather than being “sent.”
Up to now, justice, with few exceptions, is based on the mental state of the accused. link
According to the SJWs, it is enough that some disadvantaged member of a minority feels insulted. The intent of the accused does not enter into it. There is no defense. Kafka would be proud. link
You see, skeptics are not authorized to infer intent even from obvious premises, but Kristi knows the intent of hypothetical questioners who “honestly wanted to know”.
Rich,
No I didn’t. Read what I wrote again.
C’mon Kristi. I have to analyze it for you explicitly?
In response to Earthling2 saying “I have often been asked ‘Why do you deny climate change?’…The questioner is not merely asking for information, they are always making an accusation…”, you said “The questioner may have phrased it poorly, but honestly wanted to know. ”
Somehow you claim the right to infer the questioner’s motivation (honestly wanted to know), even though you have no idea who the questioner was. But Earthling2 was not allowed to infer that the questioner was making an accusation even though he/she was the one who had been questioned/accused.
Rich,
No. I said, “may have…” I don’t have any idea whether the person did or didn’t, but it’s within the realm of possibility. I inferred nothing, I offered a different idea. And I said it depended on the way it was asked. Sounded to me like E2 was making a general statement, not thinking of a particular incident. Maybe I’m wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.
Kristi Silber
I largely agree with you.
Most people who ask the question are too stupid to actually make their own enquiries into climate change and simply regurgitate what they have read in the media.
“Climate denier” is an easy soundbite to remember, they have no idea what they are asking.
Kristi ==> It is always possible that the question could be asked in such a way to imply a real desire to know the answer.
In my personal experience, it hasn’t happened yet.
“Why do you deny climate change?”
A few years ago on this site someone said that his response to that, or to a similar question like “how can you deny climate change,” was to say, “What am I denying?” That neatly andf politely shifted the burden.
To which you’d get a blank stare followed by the words “you are denying climate change” shifting the burden (in their mind) back to you.
To forestall that response, the initial “What am I denying?” counter should have been expanded to, “What am I denying, specifically?” Or, if that word was omitted in the first place, it could be used in the 2nd counter.
PS: The warmist’s reply to “What am I denying, specifically?” might be, “You’re denying that CO2 warms the atmosphere.” to which the answer is “Nope.”
Or his reply might be, “You’re denying that the earth has warmed,” to which the answer is “Nope.”
This will baffle him, if he wasn’t aware of the hypothesized positive feedback amplification from water vapor. Once you point out to him how iffy (to put it mildly) this weak link is, you’ve set him back on his heels.
People used to be better next year.
Now people are worse than we thought
and will be even worse next year.
So you are in the defensive mode because the MSM has put you there. Skeptics need to be more vocal and adamant. Stop being defensive and start being offensive (pun intended).
“While it is not easy to measure atmospheric CO2 concentrations, it has been being done for quite some time” Not a good reason to have faith in what is an extremely difficult thing to do (measure a global concentration to 1 ppm from a single spot, as claimed in the 70s) and show a too good a correlation with SH SST.
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/hadsst3sh/from:1958/to:1990/offset:0.4/plot/esrl-co2/to:1990/mean:12/derivative/scale:3.2
It’s been done since 1958, with very good accuracy. My uncle was chief of the Mauna Loa Observatory for years. He has explained to me how it’s done, and the process of calibration – there is no reason to doubt the record.
Let’s stipulate that the Mauna Loa Observatory record is accurate, and precise to 1 ppmv. Can we then safely state that it is the same level across the entire world simultaneously? I think that what little OCO-2 data have been released indicate that it isn’t.
No, we’ve now got satellite data, in addition to levels measured at other locations at ground level. All shows the increase in CO2, as measured at Mauna Loa.
There are regional and seasonal variabilities; but MLO is a reasonably accurate depiction of the average atmospheric CO2 concentration since 1959.
Really, David?
Mauna Loa represents average CO₂
At ground level?
In a corn field?
Within a forest?
In a meeting room filled with people?
In a barn filled with cows?
In a greenhouse without added CO₂?
Up in a forests’ tree canopy?
Inside of a city?
Inside a jungle?
Just over a field of tillage?
Inside of bedrooms during sleeping hours?
Inside of a factory during work hours?
Throughout diurnal periods at all locations?
etc. etc.
Open atmosphere redings under a specific altitude, CO₂ may be within a few ppm of Mauna Loa’s number; but Mauna Loa does not represent CO₂ within or near communities of life.
Using Mauna Loa’s number at The global average obfuscates CO₂ averages people actually interact with, throughout diurnal periods throughout the world.
The basic reality is that anyone conducting an experiment around CO₂ must determine, record and chart their local CO₂ levels
Assuming that Mauna Loa’s number is good enough is bad science.
Mauna Loa is a nice open atmosphere tracking number for open air locations one volcano high. For all other locations it might be good enough for government work.
Kristi Silber
Now about Mauna Loa, Kristi; exactly how is this temperature trend affected by ₂?
Formatting of the graph caption is mine to ease reading and clearly separate the trends from block writing.
How can a 30 year temperature trend (without urban island heat effects) of being negative during the day possibly lead to CAGW? Who cares if the nighttime temperatures are warmer? If the daytime temperatures are cooler why do we have a problem? The alarmists refuse to look at the proper data. The data stares at them in the face and tells them they are wrong but they refuse to believe it.
“The basic reality is that anyone conducting an experiment around CO₂ must determine, record and chart their local CO₂ levels”
Depends on the experiment.
Did you read the paper? From the discussion:
“As discussed above, we have found (Fig. 2b) that there is an overall annual warming trend of temperatures dT /dt = 0.021 ± 0.011◦C yr−1 at this observatory for the same period. This is very close to the Hawaii regional sea surface temperature (SST) trend d(SST)/dt = 0.018 ± 0.006 ◦C yr−1 for the period 1977–2006 (Fig. 4), the average “preferred” value of the IPCC (2007) for the period 1980–2005 of dT /dt = 0.018 ± 0.005 ◦C y−1
and our inferred CO2 trend analysis value of dT /dt = 0.019 [0.012 to 0.029] ◦C yr−1.
…
“Our basic hypothesis is that a large part of the temperature and DTR trends at Mauna Loa can be attributed to changes in CO2. At night, longwave radiation and turbulent sensible heat fluxes dominate heat loss. Increasing presence of green house gases will result in enhanced reradiation back towards the surface and hence warming nocturnal temperatures. During the day time, shortwave radiation dominates, particularly in tropical regions. It would be expected that the role of green house gases would be greater in the early morning before significant heating enhances boundary layer depth. At the end of the day, the boundary layer collapses. A possible explanation for the middle of the day cooling is that the enhanced surface heating is actually resulting in greater mixing and therefore a decrease in the near-surface green house gas concentration which would reduce incoming longwave radiation. These trends are consistent with the observed increases in the concentrations of CO2 and its role as a greenhouse gas, and indicate the possible relevance of the Mauna Loa temperature measurements to global warming.’
Been done in the southern hemisphere too. Dr Dave Lowe did some fine work based in the Cook Strait of New Zealand.
“Can we then safely state that it is the same level across the entire world simultaneously?”
Yes, move along.

Not moving on. All are reconstructions from local measurements.
“Not moving on. All are reconstructions from local measurements.”
Specifically how is an instrument measurement a reconstruction?
When you combine multiple time series from different locations into a spatially averaged time series, you are reconstructing a regional, hemispheric or global time series.
You can also look at all of the CO2 measurements individually. They don’t have to be combined.
If you’re combining them into a spatially averaged global time series, you are reconstructing a global average. The global average can’t effectively be measured. You have to reconstruct it ftom its components.
David, what global average? What are you talking about? Each series is represented on its own. I don’t understand your comment.
David, it is NOT reconstruction, that is the wrong choice of words. Is the CPI a reconstruction? Of course not – even though the government can’t know the price of every single item when determining the CPI.
Its a reconstruction because the global average is not an average of a well spread out set of measurements. If local concentrations didn’t vary much from the average, you could claim it was a measurement but it does and it comes out as if global measurements were made to 0.1 ppm.
Please do not forget that real daily CO2 levels vary enormously at ground level, and that Mauna Loa represents the assumed background level. You might look here for live CO2 measurements done in a semi-rural environment at Diekirch, Luxembourg. (http://meteo.lcd.lu/)
Francis MASSEN
“……Mauna Loa represents the assumed background level.”
It’s the second largest volcano in the world. Not sure I understand how it can possibly represent background levels.
The general trends are similar for 4 locations on Earth. However, what should also be of interest is why the annual range at Barrow, with low biological productivity and no industry, is about the same as the decadal change in the trend. Also, why is the annual variation at the South Pole about the same as Samoa? I think that there are still a lot of things about the carbon dioxide cycle that are not well understood.
Clyde and the Mauna Loa thread ==> We can simply let Mauna Loa represent the general metric of CO2 concentration — it is a well-mixed atmospheric gas and the metric only concerns those who consider CO2 the “dominate driver” of AGW/CC.
Personally, I don’t think we have sufficient scientific evidence to support that view.
Clyde,
You are not taking into account the effects of the ocean temperature and biota.
Kristi,
Yes, please feel free to explain how the “ocean temperature and biota” are affecting the annual South Pole variations and the Samoa variations similarly.
The greening of the earth backs up the CO2 increasing as shown. The additional CO2 is totally beneficial. Yes, move along.
Will not argue with the qualitative part.
Robert, the CO2 is increasing despite the greening. You would have to ignore any potential future or already observed negative effects of this increase to say that it’s “totally beneficial.”
I might have done a poor job of explaining this. The derivative of the 12 month mean smoothed CO2 levels from ML needs to be measured to 0.1 ppm to see the correlation with SH SST after scaling and offsetting so lines of best fit are the same. The correlation being how they deviate from the linear trend the same. No good reason to actually see it if human emissions are the cause of the increase because those monthly changes sum up to the 100ppm increase in the past 6 decades so either whole rise due to increasing sea temperature or varying human emissions would muffle it. No chance of measuring precisely enough to see it either.
All the different sites have large differences in monthly measurements but very similar underlying trends that correlate with SH SST after taking the derivative after 12 month smoothing – the same as the difference in values of the same months of consecutive years divided by 12. This is because they are “revised” and “calibrated” which is basically reconstructing the global average using SH SST (until about 1990 and then the old RSS). The only way it could end up reflected in the rate of CO2 increase.
The world might be greener because CO2 has gone up but a 10% rise when close to the limit that plants need would do that.
Kristi,
What observed negative effects?
Sea level is rising at the same slow pace as for the past 300 years. The world is getting less stormy by far.
What is the problem which you imagine more plant food in the air has caused?
RyanS ==> “Can we then safely state that it is the same level across the entire world simultaneously?” Of course we can’t, but it doesn’t matter — it is not a Climatically Important Difference if it is +/- 10 or 20 ppm over there or over here.
So I don’t deny — why should anyone?
Plus 120 ppm is not a climatically important difference.
I compared the data from Mauna Loa and Cape Grimm. Going from the monthly data to 12 month smoothed data shows both to be close to each other. But the SD of the differences over 4 decades goes from an almost believable 1.4 ppm to 0.04 ppm after 12 month moving mean smoothing.
Yes, smoothing will always decrease the apparent variance compared to the raw data. This is one of the problems with reporting precision in averaged time-series data!
Apologies. It was differences for the derivatives ie differences in monthly readings. If measured to 0.1 ppm (1sd) the differences should have a SD of square root of 2 times that, or 0.144 and it is 0.144.
You might find this website more informative than Ryan S’s rather terse response . . . http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/data/atmospheric_co2/sampling_stations
JCalvertN(UK)
Why are all but 3 in the Pacific?
To keep human activity, and vegetation impacts from confounding the data. Very few automobiles, refineries and power plants in the Pacific. PS, since the ocean is the biggest sink for CO2, what better place to measure it than where it should be the smallest?
David Dirkse
Something wrong with the Atlantic and Indian Oceans then?
Too close to land
David Dirkse
Too close to land what?
I apologize for going way over your head HotScot. You see, on land, there is this stuff call “vegetation” and on land there is these things called human beings (with cities, refineries, cars and power plants). Placing your CO2 measuring instruments too close to the land will result in inaccurate measurements.
David Dirkse
That wouldn’t include Mauna Loa then, a vegetated, volcanic island with a substantial population?
Oh look, something just flew over your head.
HotScot – The Mauna Lea Observatory is at 14,000 feet. There is no vegetation and no substantial population there. It’s above the inversion layer where most seasonal CO2 changes occur.
Oh look, something just flew over your head.
Chris
But there’s a sodding great volcano there, or did you miss that? Or as usual, just try to deflect the discussion?
And think up your own lines……….Parrot…..Squawk!
HotScot said: “But there’s a sodding great volcano there, or did you miss that? Or as usual, just try to deflect the discussion?”
Google is your friend, HotScot. Try it, it will make you look less foolish when you post.
I’ll even cut and paste to make it easy for you: “Most of the time, the observatory experiences “baseline” conditions and measures clean air which has been over the Pacific Ocean for days or weeks. We know this because the CO2 analyzer usually gives a very steady reading which varies by less than 3/10 of a part per million (ppm) from hour to hour. These are the conditions we use to calculate the monthly averages that go into the famous 50-year graph of atmospheric CO2 concentration.
We only detect volcanic CO2 from the Mauna Loa summit late at night at times when the regional winds are light and southerly. Under these conditions, a temperature inversion forms above the ground, and the volcanic emissions are trapped near the surface and travel down our side of the mountain slope. When the volcanic emissions arrive at the observatory, the CO2 analyzer readings increase by several parts per million, and the measured amounts become highly variable for periods of several minutes to a few hours. In the last decade, this has occurred on about 15% of nights between midnight and 6 a.m.”
And: “These periods of elevated and variable CO2 levels are so different from the typical measurements that is easy to remove them from the final data set using a simple mathematical “filter.”
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/climateqa/mauna-loa-co2-record/
David,
The ocean is full of photosynthesizing organisms.
The figure used to be 80% of photosynthesis in the ocean, ie relatively more than on land, but that number is probably too low.
They all do the same calculation to get a global average from one spot described as revision and calibration.
Even at the South Pole the daily variation is over 2 ppm and a quick look at the 60s and there is no discernible seasonal signal of 7-9 ppm as in the global average from ML.
They claimed+/- 1 ppm in the 70s. You need better than that to see the correlation in the plot if there really is a perfect correlation. IF the sea surface temperatures are the reason the CO2 levels rose. If not, any SST effect is muffled. There is a massive reason to doubt it.
Can you give an example of a site with CO2 measurements that cast doubt on the figures given for current CO2 concentration?
We’re talking about in increase from 330ppm to 384ppm ish. There is an amazingly good correlation between those measurements, which makes me think it doubtful that inaccuracies in the measurements play a significant role in the figures we are looking at.
Philip Schaeffer
The amount of CO2 isn’t a problem. It’s what it’s claimed to do that’s the problem.
That is a different issue to whether we know how much CO2 has increased, and whether we know how uniform that increase is, which is what we were talking about.
Philip Schaeffer
And the search for atmospheric CO2 increase is for fun is it?
It’s not to demonstrate that CO2 causes the planet to warm by any chance is it?
That’s what the entire global warming debate is about, or hadn’t you noticed?
All sites do a revision and calibration as per the Keeling method. The underlying trends do not differ because of this. The actual measurements at the different sites differ a lot more than the 0.1 ppm precision needed to see a correlation with SST of the SH and satellite measurements of lower trip after 1990 (very close to the old RSS).
Just to clear things up. This is evidence of poorly done science and not a conspiracy. The response to it is a different story.
+42
And did he explain how the data are analyzed and what criteria are used for deleting ‘obvious’ outliers?
Kristi Silber
Mauna Loa Observatory
Built on one of the largest (second largest?) volcanoes on earth.
I can’t imagine for the life of me why I’m sceptical.
A person, such as yourself, who is skeptical of the measurements of CO2 on a volcano, would investigate. After a little bit of work, you would find that the data from Mauna Loa matches the network of CO2 monitoring all over the globe. https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/obop/
And they know when volcanic CO2 is involved ….
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/climateqa/mauna-loa-co2-record/
David Dirkse
Thanks for the link, but it told me nothing.
Presumably the Mauna Loa numbers are ‘adjusted’ to allow for its location.
Not that it matters as there’s no empirically derived evidence that demonstrates CO2 causes global warming anyway.
CO2 is measured at all those sites. The measurements all agree with one another, so your “presumably” attribution is invalid.
..
You second point is irrelevant to the measurement being discussed.
David Dirkse
My last point is the basis on which the entire climate change debate is founded, or hadn’t you noticed?
HotScot, your last point about whether CO2 causes global warming is clearly a diversion from you being proven wrong regarding what was being discussed.
“Kristi Silber
Mauna Loa Observatory
Built on one of the largest (second largest?) volcanoes on earth.
I can’t imagine for the life of me why I’m sceptical.”
A real skeptic would go gather evidence to see if their skepticism was justified.
Chris
Chris, give it a rest. You’re tedious. We know Mauna Loa Observatory is built on one of the largest volcanoes on the planet which constantly belches CO2 as well as other gases.
One doesn’t need to be a sceptic to question the sense of that, but one does have to be an idiot not to question it, like you.
I mean, you haven’t ever made the connection never mind questioned it.
Just toe the party line Chris, it’s easy, isn’t it?
HotScot, I posted above explaining why your ML objections are nonsense. You see, there’s a phenomena called wind, and most of the time (85%) the prevailing winds take the ML CO2 in a different direction.
Oh, and there are things called isotopes, that allow scientists to differentiate between the CO2 emitted from volcanoes and that from fossil fuel emissions.
Elevate your game, HotScot. You’re failing on the most basic levels of scientific understanding.
Chris
Wind……….LOL. You’re full of it OK.
Sure, the ML wind blows away all that nasty volcanic CO2 and leaves only pure untainted CO2 which they examine to ensure they are measuring only the correct stuff.
Do you actually read the drivel you type before clicking Post Comment. You should, it’s funny.
HotScot – yes, that’s correct. I quoted from the guys that run the site. You’re truly clueless about science.
Chris
Flail away, funnier by the moment.
HotScot, now reduced to vacuous posts. Sad.
Chris
Keep on flailing. Real little dervish today. 🙂
Kristi ==> In the essay (which is the real topic here) I so stipulate — it doesn’t matter to me if it is 10 ppm off, if or world-wide variation is +/- 10-20 ppm. It doesn’t change the point with which I am not in disagreement t– the point that I don’t deny.
The inconvenient questions that the IPCC can’t answer.
1) Why did sea level rise faster in early 2Oth century than now and even now is not accelerating?
2) Why do many rural only land temperature data sets show no warming?
3) Why did climate scientists in the climategate emails worry about no warming trends? They are supposed to be unbiased either way.
4) Why do some local temperature land based datasets show no warming Ex: Augusta Georgia for last 83 years? There must be 1000’s of other places like this.
5) Why do 10 of the 13 weather stations in Antarctica show no warming in last 60 years? The 3 that do are near undersea volcanic ridges.
6) Why does the lower troposphere satellite data of UAH show very little warming 1.3C per century and in fact showed cooling from 1978 to 1997?
7) Why is there only a 21% increase in net atmosphere CO2 ppm since 1980 but yet mankind increased fossil fuel emissions CO2 by 75%?
8) Why did National Academy of Sciences in 1975 show warming in the 30’s and 40’s and NASA in 1998 and 2008 not show nearly as much warming for those time periods?
9) Why has no one been able to disprove Lord Monckton’s finding of the basic flaw in the climate sensitivity equations after doubling CO2?
10) Why has there never been even 1 accurate prediction by a climate model. Even if one climate model is less wrong than another one it is still wrong.
11) Why do most climate scientists not understand the difference between accuracy and precision?
12) Why have many scientists resigned from the IPCC in protest?
13) Why do many politicians, media and climate scientists continue to lie about CO2 causing extreme weather events? Every data set in the world shows there are no more extreme weather events than there ever were
14) Why do climate scientists call skeptics deniers as if we were denying the holocaust?
!5) Why did Michael Mann refuse to hand over his data when he sued Tim Ball for defamation and why did Mann subsequently drop the suit?
16) Why have every climate scientist that has ever debated the science of global warming clearly not won any debate that has ever occurred?
17) Why does every climate scientist now absolutely refuse to debate anymore?
18) Why do careers get ruined when scientists dare to doubt global warming in public?
19) Why do most of the scientists that retire come out against global warming?
20) Why is it next to impossible to obtain a PhD in Atmospheric science if one has doubts about global warming?
21) Why is it very very difficult to get funding for any study that casts doubt on global warming?
22) Why has the earth greened by 18% in the last 30 years?
23) Why do clmate scientists want to starve plants by limiting their access to CO2? Optimum levels are 1000 ppm not 410ppm.
24) Why do most climate scientists refuse to release their data to skeptics?
25) Why should the rest of the world ruin their economies when China and India have refused to stop increasing their emmissions of CO2?
26) Why have the alarmist scientists like Michael Mann called Dr. Judith Curry an anti scientist?
27) Why does the IPCC not admit that under their own calculations a business as usual policy would have the CO2 levels hit 614ppm in 2100 which is nearly twice the CO2 level since 1850.?
28) Why do the climate modellers not admit that the error factor for clouds makes their models worthless?
29) Why did NASA show no increase in atmospheric water vapour for 20 years before James Hansen shut the project down in 2009?
30) Why did Ben Santer change the text to result in an opposite conclusion in the IPCC report of 1996 and did this without consulting the scientists that had made the original report?
31) Why does the IPCC say with 90% confidence that anthropogenic CO2 is causing warming when they have no evidence to back this up except computer model predictions which are coded to produce results that CO2 causes warming?
32) How can we believe climate forecasts when 4 day weather forecasts are very iffy?.
33) Why do all climate models show the tropical troposhere hotspot when no hotspot has actually been found in nature?
34) Why is there non existent long term variability in the climate models because otherwise the simulation would become chaotic so the model has to be tuned to flatten the variability?
35) Why is the normal greenhouse effect not observed for SST?
36) Why is SST net warming increase close to 0?
37) Why is the ocean ph level steady over the lifetime of the measurements?
38) what results has anyone ever seen from global warming if it exists? I have been waiting for it for 40 years and havent seen it yet?
39) If there were times in the past when CO2 was 20 times higher than today why wasnt there runaway global warming then?
40) Why was there a pause in the satellite data warming in the early 2000’s?
41) Why did CO2 rise after WW2 and temperatures fall?
42) For the last 10000 years over half of those years showed more warming than today. Why?
43) Why does the IPCC refuse to put an exact % on the AGW and the natural GW?
44) Why do the alarmists still say that there is a 97% consensus when everyone knows that figure was madeup?
45) The latest polls show that 33% do not believe in global warming and that figure is increasing poll by poll ? why?
46) If CO2 is supposed to cause more evaporation how can there ever be more droughts with CO2 forcing?
47) Why are there 4 times the number of polar bears as in 1960?
48) Why did the oceans never become acidic even with CO2 levels 15-20 times higher than today?
49) Why does Antarctica sea ice extent show no decrease in 25 years?
50) Why do alarmists still insist that skeptics are getting funding from fossil fuel companies ( when alarmists get billions from the government and leftest think tanks) and skeptics get next to nothing from either fossil fuel companies nor governments for climate research?
51) If the Bloomberg carbon clock based on the Mauna Loa data, in the fall and winter increases at a rate of only 2ppm per year; then why do we have to worry about carbon increases?
52) Why arent the alarmists concerned with actual human lives. In England every winter there are old people who succumb to the cold because they cant afford the increased heating bills caused by green subsidies.
53) Why did Phil Jones a climategate conspirator, admit in 2010 that there was no statistically meaningful difference in 4 different period temperature data that used both atmospheric temperature and sea surface temperature?
54) Why does the IPCC still say that the residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere is a 100 years when over 80 studies have concluded it is more like 5 years?
55) Why do all global climate alarmists say that corals are dying due to bleaching when Dr. Peter Ridd (who has published over 100 papers) has proven that coral bleaching is a defensive mechanism by corals in relation to temperature change in the water.
56) Why does the IPCC still release temperature and sea level data from NOAA and NASA when Tony Heller has proved that those agencies have faked data and made improper adjustments to the actual raw numbers ?
57) How does the IPCC explain that Professor Miskolczi showed that despite a 30% increase in CO2 in the atmosphere in the period 1948 to 2008, the total infrared optical thickness of the atmosphere was found to be unchanged from its theoretical value of 1.87
58) Why has the Global Historical Climate Network temperature data set for ~ 1000 temperature stations in the United States shown no warming over the entire 124 year period when you just take the daily maximum and average it out for the 365 days of the year?
59) Why has the global average downward infrared radiation to the surface shown no increase ever since the CERES satellite started collecting data in the year 2000?
60) How would Antarctica ever melt if almost all of the land mass never even comes close to 0 C even in summer? Same for Greenland.
61) Why did one alarmist put 7 bullet holes in Dr. John Christy’s office window?
62) Why does a NOAA graph that charts CO2 levels in the atmosphere and thus by year increase (since CO2 increases every year) show absolutely no relation to outgoing longwave radiation?
63) Why does the central England temperature dataset from the mid 1600s to today show only a .25 C increase in 350 years?
64) Since no one has been able to show exactly what the emissivity of CO2 is ; then wouldnt that mean that the downward IR measurements by NASA are wrong since they assume emissivity of a blackbody of a value of 1?
65) No one has debunked the finding of the IRIS effect by Dr. Lindzen.
66) Why does the NASA energy budget diagram show a heat flux flow within the diagram that is far greater than the original solar input even though the system is in energy balance or close to it? This is contrary to all mathematical laws.
67) Since the net CO2 in the atmosphere has been a steady 0.5 – 0.7 % increase ever since it was 1st measured in Mauna Loa, why does the IPCC deny that climate sensitivity to doubling CO2 isnt at least 200 years into the future. See Dr. Will Happers charts.
68) How can CO2 be involved in heating the surface air when an infrared heater cannot heat air?
69) How can the oceans be warming when three of the major ocean systems show no warming by the ARGO float measurement systems?
70) Dr.Michael Modest a world authority on IR radiation ,in his classic text book on Radiative Heat Transfer states that there is no closed form solution to the VOIGT profile equation. A further problem is; that equation applies to blackbodies and grey bodies and doesnt even apply to non grey bodies like CO2 anyway.
The most important sentence with respect to CO2 in Modest’s textbook on page 315( the chapter on gases) is the following. I quote
” we note that ,at moderate temperatures , the rotational partition function causes the line strength to decrease with temperature as 1/T or 1/(T^1.5), while the influences of the vibrational partition function and of stimulated emission are very minor . ”
What this means to me is that at the temperatures we see in our troposphere, the vibrational effect is small for gases and the rotational effect decreases with temperature increase.
On page 309 Modest says and I quote “while symmetric molecules such as CO2 show a rotational spectrum only if accompanied by a vibrational transition.”
So Modest seems to be saying that even though CO2 absorbs IR, the line strength of absorption/emission at moderate temperatures is too weak to worry about, especially since the rotational partition strength of the spectrum decreases with temperature increase. So not only CAGW is impossible, it seems that AGW is impossible to any significant degree (pun not intended).
71) The hidden ocean heat that was calculated from plancton studies which have now been replaced by the ARGO floats, determined that the total heat flux calculated from those studies was almost 4 times(10W/m^2) the generally accepted ( by alarmists) heat flux imbalance of today of 2.85W/m^2. Why doesnt the IPCC admit this and admit that they dont have any credible source to calculate any heat imbalance of the last 70 years if indeed there is even one?
72) From Wiki I took the top 44 glaciers in Switzerland out of the total of 1500. They all have retreated since 1973 to 2016. However the total retreat has been 34.38 km over that 43 year period. That is an average of 0.8 km per year or 0.78 km per glacier . That works out to 0.278 % decrease in length per year as an average overall for the 44 glaciers. Based on that average it will take 360 years for those 44 glaciers to completely disappear. Why does the IPCC deny this?
73) How can CO2 be of any consequence when the only important difference in temperature at nighttime in a desert is whether there are low lying clouds or not ?
Brilliant. I’m going to print it out to give to people.
“72) From Wiki I took the top 44 glaciers in Switzerland out of the total of 1500. They all have retreated since 1973 to 2016. However the total retreat has been 34.38 km over that 43 year period. That is an average of 0.8 km per year or 0.78 km per glacier . That works out to 0.278 % decrease in length per year as an average overall for the 44 glaciers. Based on that average it will take 360 years for those 44 glaciers to completely disappear. Why does the IPCC deny this?”
The rate of glacier decline is accelerating, which you completely ignore. Tsk tsk.
Maybe it is accelerating. So what? How much of that is due to man’s influence Chris? Numbers please, not models.
Oh, hang on, you don’t have quantifiable data. Just models. Never mind.
And what is the natural variation reason for the increase? Oh, hang on, Andy doesn’t have one. He just shrugs his shoulders and says “we don’t know.” If the melt rate goes up by 5X? Natural variation. 20X? Natural variation. No proof provided, of course – not even a model. The melt rate is changing “just because.”
Nope, we don’t know the full reason. We definitely haven’t got enough evidence to blame ourselves directly. Glaciers have grown and receded since the year dot. We’ll adapt and survive to any such changes, as we’ve always done.
Watching you hopelessly flail around on this thread has been really amusing Chris. If you’re doing stand-up any time soon in London I’ll buy a ticket.
Haha, the shoulder shrugging begins. “Climate always changes, always has.” ‘It’s just too darn hard to figure this stuff out.”
Watching you show both incredible lack of scientific curiosity and lack of ambition to try and figure it out has not been amusing. It’s actually rather sad. But the world has both doers and do-nothings. Always has, always will.
Speaking of a lack of scientific curiosity, nobody beats Chris. He’s been told that most if not all the warming we are currently enjoying has been caused by man. And that’s good enough for him.
Chris
Where is the empirical studies that demonstrate CO2 causes climate change, far less man made CO2 causing it.
Oh wait! You already answered that:
“Haha, the shoulder shrugging begins.”
HotScot said:
“Chris
Where is the empirical studies that demonstrate CO2 causes climate change, far less man made CO2 causing it?”
I’ve posted this twice, am doing so now for the 3rd time. http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2015/02/25/co2-greenhouse-effect-increase/
Chris
And I’ll post this for the second time
“The authors started in the 2000 La Nina, and ended at the 2010 El Nino – when troposphere temperatures were half a degree warmer. Then they noticed that there was slightly more downwelling long wave radiation [DWLR], which they blamed on increased absorption from the increase in CO2.”
I’ll let you read the rest of your debunked study that has had no publicity because it’s wrong.
Don’t you imagine that were it conclusive it would have been trumpeted on every left wing MSM site the world could muster?
Try and get your tiny mind round the detail here: https://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-new-paper-does-not-provide-evidence.html
Chris
40 years of the best scientific minds in the world studying the effects of CO2 and the best they can come up with is this Bollox!
Give me peace.
Chris
BTW, your post is, as usual, just another drive by.
Andy Wilkins
I have made the same offer on his qualities as a stand up. His response wasn’t funny so I withdrew it.
Hot Scot
I think you may have a point. I don’t think I want a ticket after all
This is one of the predictions of AGW. So why do you say that none of the predictions has come true?
You could say “we don’t know the reason” to explain away anything you want rather than accept that AGW is having an effect.
Finally, you understand. The melt rate has changed thousands of times through history and we had zip to do with it.
(You’re also using percentages and things like 5X, not the actual measurements. That’s called “how to lie with statistics”.
Most alpine and valley glaciers formed after the Holocene Climatic Optimum and generally advanced until the early to mid 1800’s. This period is known as Neoglaciation. Since the end of Neoglaciation most alpine and valley glaciers have been retreating. Neoglaciation ended long-before CO2 levels had risen much above 280 ppm.
Around 1850, during the warm up from the Little Ice Age, temperatures had risen to the point that most alpine and valley glaciers began to retreat.
https://www.usgs.gov/centers/norock/science/history-glaciers-glacier-national-park?qt-science_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects
During relative periods of warming the retreat has accelerated, during relative periods of cooling the retreat has decelerated. There’s no special explanation required.
“During relative periods of warming the retreat has accelerated, during relative periods of cooling the retreat has decelerated. There’s no special explanation required.”
The retreat has accelerated, even comparing now to, say, 20 years ago. That’s the issue. https://wgms.ch/latest-glacier-mass-balance-data/
That’s because the “climate” shifted from a cooling regime (1945-1976) to a warming regime in 1976. The acceleration began around 1980.
The fact that a shift from slight cooling to warming caused negative mass balance to accelerate says nothing about the cause, particularly since very little mass balance data prior to 1980 exists, and even less mass balance data prior to 1945 exists.
What caused the climate to warm beginning in 1976?
The same thing that caused it to cool during the preceding 30 years.
Aerosols caused warming?
“The same thing that caused it to cool during the preceding 30 years.”
More rigorous science from MarkW.
The same thing that’s driven the ~60-yr climate cycle throughout the Holocene… Most likely oceanic oscillations.
The acceraltion in glacial retreat since 1980 was simply an end to the mid-20th century cooling phase, which slowed and/or reversed glacial retreat for about 30 years.
Oerelmans, 2005.
If glaciers hadn’t started to generally begin retreating in the 1800’s, this 1975 Science News cover might not be so far from reality…
The 1950-1980 flattening in glacial retreat was a significant factor in the 1970’s impending ice age alarmism.
“Most likely oceanic oscillations.” Um, this sounds like a guess. There is evidence that increases in aerosols due to pollutants and volcanic eruptions accounted for the cooling period.
The “impending ice age” had little scientific support – the hypothesis was (as usual) exaggerated by the media. You said it – alarmism.
So, you contend that what we are seeing in glacial retreat is simply natural variation? What evidence is there that glaciers retreated due to natural variation at the rate they are doing so now?
Where is the evidence for a 60-year climate cycle in the 20th C?
“The acceraltion in glacial retreat since 1980 was simply an end to the mid-20th century cooling phase, which slowed and/or reversed glacial retreat for about 30 years.”
Why isn’t this slowing/reversal visible in your graph?
Kristi,
What caused the cooling period between the Holocene Climate Optimum (5000 years ago) and the Egyptian Warm Period (4 Ka)?
What caused the cooling period between the Egyptian Warm Period (4 Ka) and the Minoan WP (3 Ka)?
What caused the cooling period between the Minoan (3 Ka) and Roman (2 Ka) WPs, aka the Greek Dark Ages Cool Period?
What caused the cooling period between the Roman (2 Ka) and Medieval (1 Ka) WPs, aka the Dark Ages Cool Period?
What caused the warming between the Medieval and Modern WPs, aka the Little Ice Age? It wasn’t aerosols and volcanoes. It was the succession three or four solar minima, to include the mighty Maunder during its depths of cold.
David, the vast majority of scientific papers in the 70s predicted global warming, not cooling. The popular press grabbed onto cooling, but that does not reflect the majority of research papers.
You say the oceans are on a 60 year cycle affecting glaciers, so why weren’t there major glacier melting periods between 1750 and 1850?
To Chris:
Ding Ding Ding Ding
bat
Care to provide us with any
data to support your claim
that a:
“vast majority of scientific papers
in the 70’s predicted global warming,
not cooling” ?
It is my opinion that most scientists
back then did not make long term
climate predictions. Those that did
seemed split between warming and
cooling. Of course no one knows the
future climate, so it really doesn’t matter
what anyone predicts. I’d sure like to see
your data for the “vast majority”,
or are you just making that up?
Remember, the latest meme is climate change, not climate warming. And are you not aware of the PDO/AMO effects on earth’s climate? You could just as easily ask why things were cooling in the phase before 1976.
Chris
“What caused the climate to warm beginning in 1976?”
According to you, CO2. But you can’t demonstrate it empirically, can you?
Here’s a good start
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://static.berkeleyearth.org/pdf/annual-with-forcing.pdf
Simon
A meaningless graph?
I see that Simon still doesn’t know the different between assertion and fact.
Um, nature
As always, Chris either pretends not to know what others are talking about, or perhaps he really is that ignorant.
If the warming is natural, then it, and the impact on glaciers is also natural.
You have yet to demonstrate that a more than a tiny fraction of the warming since the middle 1600’s was caused by man.
MarkW
You probably noticed that Chris has a stock list of beliefs he cycles through as the opportunity emerges. Other than that his comments are just drive by snipes.
Ask him anything he can’t answer and he either ignores it or tries desperately to change the subject.
Try asking him if he can find empirically derived studies that CO2 causes climate change. You may have noticed I have asked him that innumerable times now. There is never an answer.
Those glaciers grew during the little ice age. The warming since the cessation of said little ice age resulted in the glaciers shrinking to their former extents of the medieval warm period. There, retreat explained with Occam’s Razor. You might want to look at the Muir Glacier which retreated vastly more in the 19th century than the 20th.
“The 1991 discovery of the 5,000 year-old “ice man,” preserved in a glacier in the European Alps, fascinated the world… Tragically, this also means that this glacier is retreating farther now than it has in 5,000 years, and other glaciers are as well.”
Couldn’t find any evidence that Muir retreated more during the 19th C. It is worth considering, though, that the Industrial Revolution started in about 1750. While this may not have had a great impact on CO2 levels or temperature for many years to come, the soot from coal and forest burning may have affected albedo, causing glacial retreat. Still, I’d like to see evidence that Muir retreated as quickly then as it has more recently.
From the graphs posted, you can see that the warming after the LIA leveled off (with natural ups and downs) around 1750 up until around 1900 – any later warming can’t be realistically called a continuation of post-LIA warming.
“And what is the natural variation reason for the increase Oh, hang on, Andy doesn’t have one”
He doesn’t need one, it’s called the null hypothesis – IE it’s due to natural variation same as it was for all previous periods of change that happened long before man’s fossil fuel use was made the scapegoat. It’s those who claim it’s something other than the null hypothesis that needs to provide quantifiable data to back up their extraordinary claims. At least if they are doing real science.
There is no science being done to claim the null hypothesis. Just hand waving. “Oh, it’s warming because we are coming out of the LIA.” But why is it warming? “Oh, we don’t know.”
Proof has been provided of AGW, you just choose not to believe it. So what.
You really don’t understand science, do you Chris? You don’t need to “do science” to “claim the null hypothesis” because the null hypothesis is the *default*, it’s the ones claiming that it’s something other than the null hypothesis that needs to “do science” to show their hypothesis is better than the null hypothesis. To date, the CAGW crowd have failed to do so.
And the answer to your question isn’t “Oh, we don’t know” it’s “natural variability, the same thing responsible for all the previous changes to the climate going all the way back to the year dot, if you think it’s something else, do some science to show that it’s something else (hint: model are not scientific evidence of anything)”.
John, “natural variability” is the stock answer of someone who is lazy or is not really interested in digging down. Scientists look at different periods and try to figure out the cause of changes in climate. Given our improved understanding of the forcing impacts of things such as volcanoes, aerosols, changes in land use, solar irradiance, etc, we can then understand why climate changed at certain points in time.
So once again, what is the reason for the substantial warming we are seeing now?
No, it’s the default position. If you think it is something else, the burden is on you to prove that the default (ie Null hypothesis) doesn’t hold.
Where is you evidence that the “substantial warming” (which has happened before, naturally, and will happen again) is 1) any different now than all the previous times is has substantially warmed and 2) is not due to natural variability? The burden is on the one claiming the Null Hypothesis doesn’t hold. that’s how science works.
It’s been proven to the satisfaction of most scientific societies. You don’t agree with that, and that’s fine.
A direct link between rising CO2 and increased forcing at the earth’s surface has been measured over a 10 year period, at 2 different locations.
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2015/02/25/co2-greenhouse-effect-increase/
It’s been asserted, assertion is not proof.
So what? Glaciers come and go. We know that for a fact. Not a big deal.
“The rate of glacier decline is accelerating, which you completely ignore. Tsk tsk.”
..and the rate of temp increase and sea level rise is not
Some places it’s accelerating. In many places glaciers are growing.
58 New Zealand glaciers advanced between 1983 and 2008.
https://www.iceagenow.info/
The largest glacier in Chile is advancing.
10 % of land on the earth is covered with glaciers, ice caps, or ice sheets like Greenland and Antarctica. However even if all 200000 glaciers ( not counting ice caps or Greenland or Antarctica) in the world melted, the world sea level would only rise 400 mm.
from 2012 to 2013 the largest glacier in Switzerland Grosser Aletsch retreated by 14 metres. From 2011 to 2012 it retreated 32.8 metres. From 2011 to 2012 it retreated 34.4 metres. So the trend in those 3 years was deceleration not acceleration. Sure most of the glaciers overall in the world are retreating but the world is on a long term trend of coming out of the little ice age. Arctic ice volume is now as of August 26, 2018 , the 2nd highest it has been for many years.
http://polarportal.dk/fileadmin/polarportal/sea/CICE_combine_thick_SM_EN.png
Yes, yes, yes you can cherry pick …. but globally the mass balance is down. And that is just hard to argue with.
“….but the world is on a long term trend of coming out of the little ice age……
So we are warming… we know that. It’s why Alan that matters. Saying this warming is because we are coming out of a LIA is like saying you have a fever because the thermometer says you have one. No, you have a fever because you are sick, and if you are smart you will visit a doctor and find out why.
That’s just it Simon, nobody knows what is causing the warming. It can’t be CO2 because the warming started well before CO2 started going up and the changes in actual temperature have no relationship to the changes in CO2 levels.
So, simple Simon, If the Earth currently “is sick and has a fever” than what is the Earth’s non-sick, non-fever temperature and when has it ever been at that temperature? Certainly not in the MWP or the RWP when the temps where *higher* than today. And why is it you can’t conceive of the possibility that rather than being sick with a fever, the Earth is actually recovering from a period of sickness where the Earth’s temperature was hypothermic (IE too low)?
John, if you had to guess as to what is causing the current warming, what would you say?
How do you know global temperatures were hotter during the MWP? not England, not Scandinavia, but global?
“John, if you had to guess as to what is causing the current warming, what would you say? “
Natural variation, same as in every previous period of warming. It’s up to those who think otherwise to prove that this time is different. And they simply have not. Asserting it’s different doesn’t make it so.
How do you know global temperatures were hotter during the MWP? not England, not Scandinavia, but global?
All the available evidence (scientific and historical) shows it was hotter in the MWP. Why do you deny science and history?
Wow! My list is shorter, but I’ll post it anyway:
I’d accept Climate Science:
If climate science wasn’t pushed as an absolute in schools.
If the predictions from climate science seemed to be true.
If climate scientists didn’t rig the peer review process.
If climate scientists didn’t sabotage scientific careers.
If IPCC reports weren’t re-written after final approval.
If climate scientists didn’t try to sue the opposition.
If climate scientists didn’t appear to fudge the data.
If climate scientists didn’t resort to name-calling.
If climate scientists complied with FOI requests.
If climate scientists agreed to debate the issue.
If climate scientists didn’t exaggerate findings.
If climate scientists didn’t rig grant programs.
Canards and bullshit:
Methane is 86 times more powerful than CO2 at trapping heat.
Warm water is melting the Antarctic ice cap from below.
Thermal exapansion affects world-wide sea level.
Water vapor rains out after a few days.
Cattle are a major source of methane.
People depend on glaciers for water.
Burning biomass is carbon neutral.
Sea level rise is accelerating.
Polar bears are going extinct.
The ocean is becoming acid.
The deep ocean is warming.
CFCs caused the Ozone Hole.
Average world temperature.
97% of scientists agree.
Coral reefs are dying.
Drought is increasing.
Antarctica is melting.
Greenland is melting.
+1 Love it
Steve Case,
You said, “The ocean is becoming acid.”
No, the typical claim is that “The ocean is becoming [more] acid[ic]. That is even more egregious!
BINGO!
Maybe I should have just left it at “Ocean acidification.”
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.
Your #11 on the list really nails it:
11) Why do most climate scientists not understand the difference between accuracy and precision?
When the people you are dealing with don’t know the basics, everything they say needs to be checked out for mistakes, inaccuracies and lack of thoroughness.
Steve,
That’s an assertion without evidence, as are many of the “questions.”
Kristi, if you want I’m sure someone can come up with a survey that shows that 97% of climate scientists not understand the difference between accuracy and precision with the same rigor as the one that claims the 97% consensus. Since you seem to buy the later you’d then have to buy the former.
Quite the list! Thank you Alan Tomalty.
The problem with long posts is that:
1. Not that many people have the attention span to fully read them;
2. Warmist bots like Chris will try to find one quibble, and imply that this negates the entire list (it obviously does NOT).
Item 2 above is a favorite tactic of the dishonest debater, and is intended to deceive the uneducated reader and to enlist the support of imbeciles.
I have seen this dishonest tactic used many times in the global warming / climate change debate, not only on free-for-all sites like wattsup, but also in screed rebuttals published in once-respected journals.
The fact that so many once-great scientific journals like Science and Nature have fallen into the corrupted morass of global warming alarmism is a tragedy.
A thorough mucking-out of the stables will be necessary if these “tabloids” are ever to regain their former positions of trust.
Regards, Allan
“4) Why do some local temperature land based datasets show no warming Ex: Augusta Georgia for last 83 years? There must be 1000’s of other places like this.”
Apparently, Wright-Patterson AFB (OH) is among them.
Alan ==> Such long comments are generally discouraged. If you have something you want to say that takes that many words,
submit an essay.
There are many assumptions and assertions in your questions. If you want answers, you should first provide evidence that your questions are even relevant.
For example, taken at random:
“19) Why do most of the scientists that retire come out against global warming?
20) Why is it next to impossible to obtain a PhD in Atmospheric science if one has doubts about global warming?
21) Why is it very very difficult to get funding for any study that casts doubt on global warming?”
The key fallacy is the “bait and switch” between global warming, which does have some scientific basis, to global climate change, which is a dogma. The key problem for this site taking the bait and using precise scientific arguments to try to repudiate a dogma.
Are you saying the Warmians are worshiping false gods, Walt?
They have to have something to cling to, you know. Outside the cave, where the bitter winds of the Ice Age blow, they’ll insist that it’s Global Warming in spite of the cold and the blizzards and thundersnow. Poor things… no more vegan diets, no more soy lattes, no more solar power driving their electric heaters. Just perpetual snow and cloud-covered skies….
Walt D. I disagree. Anthropogenic global climate change is a more descriptive term for anthropogenic global warming. They generally refer to the same thing.
There have always been periods of global warming and global cooling that have resulted in other climate changes; regional temperature variation is also part of climate change.
Kristi,
I understand as a non Brit you struggle with English, let me help…
‘Climate’ is the average of weather patterns in an area over a specified time period, (usually 30-100yrs).
‘Warming’ means a continuous increase in temperature.
‘Change’ means to make different, to alter course in any direction,
e.g. Water may be changed into vapor or ice…depending on the amount of heat added or removed.
Anthropogenic global climate change is NOT a descriptive term for anthropogenic global warming. They DON’T refer to the same thing.
Climate change is a completely meaningless term in a scientific sense. A change from what, to what, over what time and scale? It’s total nonsense. Global warming at least describes a) a specific variable – temperature, b) the scale of the change – global; and c) the nature of the change ie. increasing.
KristI;
The problem is with the world “Global” in Anthropogenic Global Climate Change. In fact, there is no dispute the human activity changes LOCAL climate around cities. For instance, the city of Atlanta GA makes its own weather. The temperature around Heathrow Airport has definitely increased over the last century.
However, to be able to use the term “Global”, you would need to observe significant changes in rainfall in the Atacama Dessert, for instance.
When people use the term “Climate Change”, they are usually referring to transient hot or cold weather events.
Walt, I disagree. “Global” refers to the Earth. The Earth is warming. Effects are regional and variable, and that is as predicted.
Climate does not refer to transient hot/cold weather events, it refers to shifts in weather parameters over the course of decades, which can include precipitation amount, timing and intensity; changes in length of growing season; average/max/min temperatures; likelihood, duration and extremity of heat waves…even changes in average relative humidity. Climate is what determines what species live where (apart from humans and their effects).
“For instance, the city of Atlanta GA makes its own weather” I think meteorologists would disagree. The UHI effect is not weather.
Kristi ==> If you follow the logical progression of my essay (and Part 2 which will be up in a day or so), you’ll see that there is even less scientific evidence for the hypothesis of “Anthropogenic global climate change” than for AGW, for which the evidence of attribution is so thin that it is nearly non-existent.
“The key fallacy is the “bait and switch” between global warming, which does have some scientific basis, to global climate change, which is a dogma.”
That’s not true. First, not every single place on the planet will warm. If the Atlantic Conveyor were to slow down, Britain and Western Europe could become colder. Besides that, the term global warming doesn’t provide any indication about changing precipitation patterns – increased rainfall or increased drought, and changes in intensity of rainfall. Hence the phrase climate change is better. As Kristi noted below, anthropogenic climate change is more accurate, and better yet would be something like “anthropogenically modified climate change” to indicate that it is in addition to naturally driven climate change.
You are tedious.
The typical climate extremist notices a weather event, like a heat wave this year, or a cool summer a few years ago, and claims that particular weather event is as predicted, and there will be more of it.
And then gives wordy dissembling answers.
By the way, the Atlantic conveyor is nit being disrupted by CO2.
It is not driven by temperature.
You do not even know what drives it primarily.
Haha, Hunter tries proof by assertion and fails miserably. Climate researchers look at actual events and determine whether there is an AGW-related cause. You, on the other hand, blindly dismiss all events. No evidence provided, of course. It’s true because hunter said so!!!!
https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo2201
Erm, that study used models. That’s just made up stuff. I think we can safely ignore it.
The standard climate skeptic retort gets trotted out once again. “If climate models are not 100% accurate, they are rubbish!” The do nothing brigade rides again.
“If climate models are not 100% accurate, they are rubbish!”
If climate functions as a linear system, then a nearly correct model with nearly correct data will give you a nearly correct answer. On the other hand, if climate is a non-linear, chaotic system (and the IPCC says it is: “The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible”), then if the model is not perfect and/or the data input is not perfect, the output from the models quickly becomes “rubbish” (This work was pioneered by Edward Lorenz who described chaos as “When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future”)
No one says the models are perfect, but that doesn’t make them rubbish. “Predictive” climate models are designed to forecast (or “project”) trends. Some trends are predicted with high confidence, some are not. The quote from IPCC means that their projections do not tell us when a particular climate shift or weather event will happen. For instance, some include naturally variable things like ENSO, but that doesn’t mean we can say that 53 years from now there will be an El Nino. Or, the likelihood of severe droughts will increase, but we don’t know when or where they will happen.
Models are useful not only for planning, but for understanding the climate itself. It’s not humanly possible to take into account all the factors that enter into climate without the use of models.
What Edward Lorenz said applies to chaos. Climate is not a wholly chaotic system.
Kristi ==> What Edward Lorenz said applies specifically to numerical weather/climate computer modelling — his “rediscovery” of what became known as Chaos Theory was an added bonus — but he discovered it in his numerical “toy”computer weather model.
It is the IPCC itself states quite clearly, unequivocally that “The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”
Your statement “Climate is not a wholly chaotic system” does not make sense when “chaotic” is used in the context intended by Lorenz and the IPCC — that being the field of Chaos Theory.
Kristi Silber: “‘Predictive’ climate models are designed to forecast (or “project”) trends. Some trends are predicted with high confidence, some are not.”
Two comments:
1) If, as the IPCC says “…the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.” then it makes no sense to create forecasts (or “projections”) based on a model that can not make an accurate long-term prediction. In a coupled non-linear chaotic system, it is not possible, even in principle, to make accurate long-term predictions no matter how fast your computer, how good your model or how many data points you have. To make accurate long-term predictions would require you to have a perfect model with all possible data points with perfect precision. Anything less and the output of the model will quickly diverge from reality and produce inaccurate (or to use Chris’ term “rubbish”) results. As Kip mentioned in another thread, I think it would be a good idea for you to read his previous essays on Chaos.
2) “Confidence” levels are simply opinions and can not be treated as scientific facts.
As always, Chris has to lie about what others have said in order to refute their points.
Nobody claimed that models have to be 100% accurate.
For them to get a single prediction right would be enough. I’m still waiting.
MarkW,
Don’t you ever have anything interesting to contribute to the discussion?
Chris,
If mathematical models are so reliable, why don’t you use one to get rich from betting on the stock market? As we say, “Put your money where your mouth is.”
This should be good for a laugh:
So Chris, what should we be doing?
Chris, you really are tedious.
Let’s go back to basic science. To paraphase UAH “climate scientist Dr. John Christie, the way we come to believe we understand a physical system is by making accurate predictions about it. When people claiming to be climate scientists exempt climate models from the process of falsification, they are behaving as dogmatists and advocates, not as scientists. I have seen no climate model make any accurate prediction about the state of the Earth’s “climate.” I have seen many that overheat their imaginary atmospheres. Climate models are NOT reality, and they can only regurgitate the flawed mathematical calculations that have been programmed into them. They are essentially generating circular arguments on a grand scale. If you actually TRIED to compare them to reality, you’d stop being impressed. But instead, adherents like Gavin Schmidt and his admirers have no problem as virtual guesses about the future are instantly converted to something akin to received wisdom, and then this presumed truth is dressed up as pseudo-scientific terms, entered into the corrupted scientific record, hailed (wrongly) as evidence and observation, with a side order of technological gobbeldy-gook, and foisted on people as the worst form of sophistry and propaganda, with typical hard sell (act NOW or it will be too late) and combined with a very cult-like quasi-religious Gaia neo-Gnosticism.
Sadly, you seem to believe these silly climate models as accurate. They do not deserve your faith in them. Evidence shows increasing divergence between their predictions and measured reality. They all over-estimate temperatures to the point where, in my opinion, they have already falsified themselves as to their ability to claim any sort of causal ties between CO2 and temperature. If that causal link is broken, there is no point to any CO2 mitigation strategy, since it will do from zero to very close to nothing to change the climate, and yet it will harm billions of people by making energy more expensive. It’s a bad deal for everyone, INCLUDING YOU!
Without virtual climate models (and dodgy reconstructions like the hockey stick), there is no alarm. Without alarm, there is no need for political action. This is why you alarmists are screwed, why you constantly need to analyze “d-nye-ers” and why your side of this debate is always whinging about not being able to persuade people. It would be much better if you look at why YOU have been persuaded, and figure out that a lot of people have been shining you on for a long time. Maybe, just maybe, you’ve been brainwashed, and you don’t realize it.
“This is why you alarmists are screwed, why you constantly need to analyze “d-nye-ers” and why your side of this debate is always whinging about not being able to persuade people.”
Yeah, Mickey. Let’s see, the Fortune 1000 agrees with me. The oil companies agree with me. The world’s largest investment funds, insurance companies and re-insurance companies agree with me. Yeah, my side is really screwed. Keeping posting in the WUWT bubble and believing that the tide is turning in your direction.
And a full admission there is ZERO science in this and all economics and greed. Thanks, Chris.
The sad thing is that Chris actually believes he just gave a scientific argument.
It really amazes me how bad Chris is at both science and basic logic.
Lets see, he claims that since the Fortune 1000 agrees with him, the science must be right.
Aside from the glaring logical fallacies there, where is the proof that the Fortune 1000 agrees with Chris, rather than merely following the laws as passed by politicians.
Where’s the evidence that the re-insurance companies agree with Chris?
I’ll go with Warren Buffet, who is actually in that industry who stated several years back that none of the insurance companies are concerned regarding climate change because they base next years insurance on what happened last year. Not on projections on what might happen 100 years from now.
Chris, your’re side is screwed, because as you just demonstrated, you have no concept of what science is.
Chris
It’s a shame CO2 doesn’t agree with you.
Empirical evidence son, that’s what we need.
“The world’s largest investment funds, insurance companies and re-insurance companies agree with me.” They don’t agree with you Chris, they’ve just spotted a chance to make pots of cash flogging a fairy-tale to gullible types such as yourself.
You’re a true climate Scientologist, Chris. I hereby declare you Clear. Take a big win.
Ahh, no reply from Mickey to my comment below. The scared little wabbit has run away.
Excellent comment, Mickey. One of the best on this very long thread – which is taking me hours to read all the comments!
Chrissy elevates researchers to some demi-god omnipotent level, links to a “Nature” article where bad science is conducted, assumptions are made and hard coded so the “model” provides, eventually, the results desired.
Bolding, mine.
Note that Chrissy’s worshipped researchers start with confirmation bias, assume they ‘know everything’ that affects weather and proceed to manipulate the model until desired results are achieved.
Then the researchers leap from comparison to association to correlation then to causation.
Another dreamland self satisfaction model where researchers, activists and advocates immediately elevate to override observations…
Utter fail!
The only thing Chris has ever excelled at is ignoring anything that doesn’t fit his agenda.
If an alarmist proclaims that the current heat wave was caused by CO2, then it was.
If an alarmist proclaims that a cold wave has nothing to do with CO2, then it doesn’t.
Anyone who disagrees is denying science.
Chris
“Climate researchers look at actual events and determine whether there is an AGW-related cause.”
Kidding, right?
HotScot, MarkW, Sheri and ATheoK,
No logical fallacy at all. Mickey Reno posted: “This is why you alarmists are screwed, why you constantly need to analyze “d-nye-ers” and why your side of this debate is always whinging about not being able to persuade people.”
I don’t need to persuade you. What I care about is what actions are taking place relating to AGW. Those actions are determined by the Fortune 1000, not you. Or me, for that matter. So what if I can’t convince you to your satisfaction? It doesn’t matter.
If you were serious in your AGW-skeptic efforts, you would try to convince the Fortune 1000 that they are wrong, that they should not be pushing for renewable energy, or to lower their CO2 footprint. That’s what matters, not commenting here on WUWT with your fellow AGW skeptics.
Chris
You are assuming I (and the others) don’t.
But that’s your problem Chris, you inflate your ego by announcing on an anonymous blog you have impressive qualifications. Of course no one believes you.
Meanwhile, some of us don’t brag, we do.
HotScot, what do you do? Besides post all day long on a skeptic blog? Come back and tell me when you’ve convinced the UK to change their position on AGW. You’re probably a member of UKIP, since that’s the only UK party that rejects the AGW position. You know, the party that lost 43 out of 44 council seats. Hahaha.
Chris
None of your business what I do.
Get back to me when you can control your unscientific desire to hurl puerile insults at me.
You do realize how pea-brained that sounds…don’t you? The climate changes constantly, and always has. To say this might happen or that might happen, or it might not, but whatever happens, things will definitely change and all the bad stuff is because we caused it, and if we weren’t here those things would never have happened or at least not to such a degree, is not science, it is superstition. The only way to differentiate naturally driven climatic changes from vague ‘anthropogenically modified’ climatic changes would be to have two identical planets; one without us and one with us. It’s not that difficult to understand. Or, if the climate had been perfectly stable and then we came along and caused a sudden change in a particular variable which corresponded with a sudden change in some other previously stable variable like temperature, then one might be able to put forward a meaningful hypothesis. Or, if past CO2/temperature correlations indicated a causal link then one might infer that the same should apply now. That is not the case.
Sylvia said: “The climate changes constantly, and always has.”
Wow, 3rd grade level scientific curiosity! So let’s apply your logic elsewhere. Medical research on extending lives? Nah, people always have died, always will. Reducing forest fires? Nah, we’ve had those in the past.
The proper question is whether climate is changing due to our influence (which is primarily through CO2), and whether those changes are, on net, beneficial or harmful. If the former, then nothing needs to be done. If the latter, action should be taken.
That’s the proper question, the proper answer however is not “the models prove it” (because with their spectacular record of failure, they don’t prove shit) but rather “the null hypothesis holds until we get enough empirical evidence that shows otherwise, and, frankly , we don’t yet have such evidence and what evidence we do have doesn’t align with the CAGW hypothesis.”
Over at Judith Curry’s website you can find a discussion and a link to a paper by leading oceanographer Carl Wunsch in which he questions the whole Atlantic Conveyor hypothesis (and paleoclimatology generally). Here . . https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/64628/qsr_2010_may2010.pdf?sequence=1
Takeaway: the Atlantic Conveyor hypothesis is not settled science!
One take away is that London has a similar climate to Seattle, yet there is no “conveyor” in the Pacific.
The Japan Current is a huge Pacific “conveyor” which brings a humungous amount of warmth and precipitation to the west coast of northern North America, as large or larger than the Atlantic gulf stream that keeps London and Europe warm.
JCalvertN(UK)
“paleoclimatology”
Don’t get me started on that!
I don’t believe paleoclimatology can establish a temperature range to within a decimal point now a date range within years far less months.
Nor do I even believe it’s the paleoclimatology scientists that make these claims, it’s the misrepresentation of their work by others that’s the problem.
Hmm, we were assured not to many years ago that CO2 was so powerful that it would completely swamp natural variability.
Now the alarmists are using natural variability to explain the lack of warming.
Chris,
You said, “…were to slow down, …could become…” This is typical alarmist conjecture. If you could tell us just when said slow down would occur and how exactly it would impact the climate of the UK, we might have some concern. However, what you are saying is no different from saying “The Earth COULD be hit by an asteroid and MIGHT kill billions of people.” Possibilities are not the same thing as probabilities! Until such time as you or those like you can give me some firm numbers (Much better than Hansen’s 30-year prediction!) describing how, when, and where, I’m inclined to write it off as hand-waving while you’re trying to dry your fingernail polish. In other words, of no real concern.
Clyde, my “were to slow down” comment was ONLY about the Atlantic Conveyor, not about AGW.
If you don’t believe it, that’s fine.
Chris,
You said, “…my “were to slow down” comment was ONLY about the Atlantic Conveyor,…”
So that excuses it from being unsupported conjecture? But, it does relate to AGW, even it you weren’t speaking directly to that topic.
Clyde, how is it unsupported conjecture? The negativity here towards research on complex systems is astounding. Yes, the earth’s climate system is incredibly complex. We know the earth is warming, in part due to natural variation, but mostly due to anthropogenic factors. We don’t exactly when, or if, the Atlantic Conveyor will change course. We don’t know exactly when subsea methane will release in large quantities. But we know the earth is warming, and that those events are increasingly likely.
The position of skeptics seems to be – let’s do nothing until we know everything about climate with 100% certainty. No just if the Atlantic Conveyor will flip, but exactly when it will.
Walt – I agree with you.
Furthermore, many global warming and climate change alarmists, especially the “sheeple”, the followers, appear to have NO scientific education.
Here are some basics:
Global cooling occurred from ~1940 to 1977, even as fossil fuel consumption accelerated strongly. This observation adequately DISPROVES the “runaway global warming” hypothesis.
This ~37-year global cooling period was naturally-caused, and was NOT primarily driven by increasing atmospheric CO2, unless one believes (as some warmists do) that CO2 is the “demon molecule”, that can cause both global warming AND global cooling, etc., etc.
Furthermore, there is NO credible evidence of wilder weather in recent decades, despite increased atmospheric CO2.
Furthermore, there is NO credible evidence of catastrophic global warming over geologic time, when atmospheric CO2 concentrations were many times higher than they are today.
These are all very-scary-fairy stories, concocted by corrupt scientists to promote a profitable, self-serving political and financial agenda – at the great expense of the general public and especially the elderly and global poor.
Global warming and climate change alarmism is a corrupt and despicable agenda – it is the greatest scam, in dollar terms, in the history of humanity.
More on the Scientific Method:
RICHARD FEYNMAN ON THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD (1964)
https://youtu.be/0KmimDq4cSU
at 0:39/9:58: ”If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong.”
At 4:01/9:58: “You can always prove any definite theory wrong.”
At 6:09/9:58: “By having a vague theory, it’s possible to get either result.”
THIS IS THE “CLIMATE CHANGE” ALARMISTS’ KEY STRATEGY:
“By having a vague theory, it’s possible to get either result.” – Richard Feynman
“A theory that is not refutable by any conceivable event is non-scientific.” – Karl Popper.
The “Climate Change” hypothesis is so vague, and changes so often, that it is not falsifiable and not scientific. It should be rejected as unscientific nonsense.
The “Runaway Global Warming” hypothesis is at least falsifiable, and IT HAS BEEN ADEQUATELY FALSIFIED:
1. By the ~37-year global cooling period from ~1940 to 1977;
2. By “the Pause”, when temperature did not significantly increase for almost two decades, despite increasing atmospheric CO2 concentrations;
3. By the absence of runaway global warming over geologic time, despite much higher CO2 concentrations;
4. By the fact that equatorial Pacific sea surface temperatures have not increased significantly since ~1982, and corresponding air temperatures increased largely due to the dissipation of the cooling impact of two century-scale volcanoes – El Chichon in 1982 and Pinatubo in 1991+;
5. By the fact that CO2 trends lags temperature trends by ~9 months in the modern data record, and by ~~800 years in the ice core record, and the undeniable reality that the future cannot cause the past.
In summary, there is no real dangerous global warming or wilder weather crisis. In fact, increasing atmospheric CO2 certainly improves plant and crop yields, and may cause some mild global warming, which will be net-beneficial to humanity and the environment.
Regards, Allan
__________________________________________________________
Global warming and climate change alarmism, in a few decades at most, will be regarded as a mass delusion, and its leaders and its followers will be widely regarded as scoundrels and imbeciles.
Quotations from the following text, written in 1841, will be cited in their epitaphs.
“EXTRAORDINARY POPULAR DELUSIONS AND THE MADNESS OF CROWDS”
Charles Mackay (1841)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
Quotations:
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.”
“Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder’s welcome.”
The world warmed from 1980 to around 2010. We don’t know what caused it.
Therefore it must have been CO2.
Allan
“Furthermore, many global warming and climate change alarmists, especially the “sheeple”, the followers, appear to have NO scientific education.”
That would be Chris, despite his claims.
Kip, thanks.
I did like this line, and will use it:
“. . . the facts don’t match the narrative . . .”
But not this one {chuckle}:
“I would have placed place more emphasis this: “
John ==> Thank you. On the second, even one as nearly perfect as I occasionally makes a proofreading error.
Well, gee whiz, I have an Excel chart I cobbled together showing that over the last 400,000 years, not only have there been repeated episodes of cold climate, but those cold episodes have been followed by episodes of warm climate. And the warm periods are repeatedly shorter than the cold periods. And that’s without any reference to temperature charts or solar this & that, or CO2 stuffs. Both the warm periods and the cold periods follow a wave form that a blind man could probably see.
So what is the point these people are trying to make?
Are they afraid that if they get agreement from people they designate as “deniers” (whatever that is), they won’t have a leg to stand on? (I’d like to see that).
Well, just so you all know where I stand, if this wave form is historically even semi-accurate, then we may be coming to the end of this warm period. I know it won’t make the Warmians happy to be confronted with the very real possibility of a reversion to prolonged cold, but – well, there it is.
That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
According to the alarmists the coming cool period will be caused by CAGW.
Mardler
I rather think it’ll be claimed they have changed the world with wind turbines and solar arrays.
It’s coming, I’d bet my mortgage on it.
If they see my simple chart it will terrify them. Why? Because the Wisconsin** glaciation period lasted about 170,000 years. It was followed by several shorter periods of warm spells and cold spells, and we’re in the most recent warm spell now, about 18,000 to 20,000 years, during which Warmians have (for the last 6 to 10 years) found their niche. And there is every indication that this “niche” can end before too long.
Lots of things happened in those 18,000 to 20,000 years.
**Wisconsin refers to how far south the southern border of the ice sheet went on the North American continent. No reference made to Europe or southern continents or intended, only looked at North American part of it. I suppose I could dig that up if anyone demands it, but I preferred to keep it simple to make a point.
Please post your chart Sara.
I have no idea how to do that Alan. It isn’t online anywhere.
Sara ==> Using the link to your guest essay elsewhere, I right clicked on your chart, got the full-sized image, right clicked again, clicked on Copy Image Location, and pasted the image url in here on its own line:

Voila!
Best I can do is post this link to something I wrote 2 years ago . The chart is in the middle of the article. It is crude, yes, but does make my point. And as I said, I did not use temperatures. I stuck to the length of time for each glacial period and interglacial. North America only. I constructed it mostly out of curiosity.
https://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=65551
I was quite annoyed with the US Attorney General ‘s attempt to file RICO charges against people who disagree with the Warmians. That was in 2016. And she had to reverse her course and back pedal because the George Mason U professor who demanded this was himself engaging in RICO activity with his demand letter.
One a side note, geologists do not include the Aftonian period any more, because the soil samples were incorrectly analyzed, and include soils from three different time periods. That’s how old my chart is.
I think if these CAGWers saw it, they’d faint in fear. But that’s just me. 🙂
That’s all very well, Kip, but have you stopped beating your wife?
(Same thing exactly.)
Julie ==> No, but I plan to, honest.
My apologies Kip: I don’t think you are wrong, but I am more feed up than you are.
I deny that the so-called called climate record is a reliable record. I deny that the true record of the weather (as opposed to the ones cooked up by so-called “scientists”) supports a claim that the weather is measurably warmer now than it was in the first half of the 20th Century. I deny that climate models are anything other than mathematical masturbation. I deny that increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has any ill effect on any biological system. I deny that the so called climate scientists are honest men. I deny that so called climate scientists have engaged in anything other than fear mongering. I deny that polar bears are in any danger from warmer weather in the arctic. I deny that sea levels are rising faster than they have in the recent past. I deny that so called “tropical” diseases have any causal relation with warmer weather. I deny that any of the natural disasters of this summer, last year, or any other year are related to any changes in the general climate.
I affirm that the whole miserable theory of anthropogenic catastrophic global warming was created and advanced for the sole purpose of scarring people into surrendering their freedom, their property, and their prosperity to a global socialist government. I affirm that a warmer world is a happier, healthier, and more prosperous world. I affirm that CO2 is absolutely necessary for the existence of life on earth, and that we, and all other living things, are better off at 400 ppm than we were at 280 ppm. I affirm that it is more likely that the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere is due to the end of the Little Ice Age than it is due to human activity. I affirm that humanity would be far better off by the aggressive exploration of fossil fuel energy resources to bring prosperity to Africa and Asia, than it would be by any change in the general climate.
Please add your own denials and affirmations to this thread.
Walter wrote:
“Please add your own denials and affirmations to this thread.”
Don’t need to, thank you Walter, you’ve done a pretty good job all by yourself!
It may very well be that human activity is the major driver of increasing atmospheric CO2, but since that increase is net-beneficial, it is primarily of scientific interest.
Also the fact that the line is higher on the right hand side of this graph presumably.
RyanS
And the problem is?
http://www.biocab.org/Geological_Timescale.jpg
HotScot, YOUR problem is that RyanS is using real measured data, and your graphic is not data, but the output of the GEOCARB model. MODELS are not data.
Actually your problem David is that you believe that putting a couple of sensors in the ocean is capable of telling you what the temperature of the entire ocean is, to with in a few thousandths of a degree.
There are 3800 ARGO floats, more than a “couple.” Secondly, you have no idea about statistical sampling theory, so unless you’ve got evidence, they actually CAN measure it to a few thousandths.
David Dirkse
“……they actually CAN measure it to a few thousandths.
Evidently NOT
“The root‐mean‐square (RMS) difference in the Argo‐based temperature field relative to the section measurements is about 0.6°C. The RMS difference is smaller, less than 0.4°C, in the eastern basin and larger, up to 2.0°C, toward the western boundary.”
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2006JC003825?rememberMePresent=false
HotScot…….they are sampling to measure the temperature. The standard error for their sample is https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.CYUOXtuvcFogpL3jEnQw_gHaCY&pid=Api
..
To get to a few thousandths, all you need to do is increase the sample size (N in the formula.) You are confusing sampling error with instrument error.
David Dirkse
“You are confusing sampling error with instrument error.”
If you don’t have accurate instruments, it doesn’t matter how much you increase the sample size, the error remains, and in fact probably grows the more inaccurate instruments you add.
Have you ever done any science in your life?
You “measure” the average height of American adult males with a pole that has makings at one foot intervals. All you have to do is take enough samples, and you can get accuracy to with a quarter inch. You are confusing making a single physical measurement with sampling a population.
For example, they poll people, and ask if they A) approve of the POTUS, or B) disapprove of the POTUS, or C) don’t know.
…
The “ruler” in this case has THREE divisions, yet they come up with a number like 41.3%
..
The trick is to gather enough samples.
Yes, I’m well versed in science. For example I know what 5-sigma means.
For example, they poll people, and ask…
And then they concluded that Hillary will win and that Trump doesn’t have a chance in hell of winning. Ooops.
David Dirkse
“You “measure” the average height of American adult males with a pole that has makings at one foot intervals.”
Assuming you have 3,000 poles all accurately calibrated to measure 3,000 American adult males across the country at the same time. If you don’t, the average height will be between 3’4″ and 12’10”.
Why is David using Poles to measure Americans ?? you’d be better off to check with a Slovakian !
David Dirkse
“When they were first deployed in 2003, the Argos were hailed for their ability to collect information on ocean conditions more precisely, at more places and greater depths and in more conditions than ever before. No longer would scientists have to rely on measurements mostly at the surface from older scientific buoys or inconsistent shipboard monitors.
So why are some scientists now beginning to question the buoys’ findings? Because in five years, the little blighters have failed to detect any global warming. They are not reinforcing the scientific orthodoxy of the day, namely that man is causing the planet to warm dangerously. They are not proving the predetermined conclusions of their human masters. Therefore they, and not their masters’ hypotheses, must be wrong.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1990668/posts
Posting an article from forum/chat site? No wonder it is easy to render YOUR opinion moot. Science isn’t done in places like that.
HotScot says, “I saw it posted on the Internet (freerepublic.com) so it HAS to be true”
David Dirkse
Keep digging son.
David Dirkse
“No wonder it is easy to render YOUR opinion moot.”
So are you telling me, with complete confidence that what’s posted there isn’t true despite being reported by Bob Strong of Reuters and National Post, part of PostMedia solutions, a well recognised and respected Canadian media brand?
Like the rest of your alarmist colleagues, you do nothing but attack with empty rhetoric.
There are 3800 ARGO floats, more than a “couple.”
and there is 360 million square kilometers of Ocean. 3800 is a drop in the bucket in comparison.
David Dirkse
YOUR problem is that the posted graph is from Wikipedia.
And I’m very glad you acknowledge MODELS are not data as most of the climate change scam is built on MODELS .
The difference is, MY graph is internationally accepted by virtually every scientist in the world, well, at least 97% of them.
“The difference is, MY graph is a internationally accepted model by virtually every scientist in the world.”
…
There fixed it for you.
David Dirkse
“The difference is, MY graph is internationally accepted by virtually every scientist in the world, well, at least 97% of them.”
Aw look, you dropped it and broke it so I fixed it for you.
Wan’t to continue playing puerile games?
David Dirkse
“The difference is, MY graph is
internationallyintentionally accepted by virtually every government-paid scientist in the world, well, at least the 97% of them who want to remain government-paid scientists next year by their government-funded bureaucracies and agencies.”RACookPE1978
You got that one wrong. 🙂
RACook………….I suggest you look at the original author of that comment
True – I made that assumption.
Go play with the MODEL that produces your graph.
David Dirkse
“Go play with the MODEL that produces your graph.”
No idea who your nasty little comment was directed at as you’re too lazy or incompetent to actually address it, but I’ll assume it was me.
And I can only say that it’s incredibly easy to reduce people like you to the level of hurling puerile insults. Fun too.
I did not post a graph from Wikipedia. I didn’t post any graph.
We can add reading comprehension fail along since you previous science comprehension fail to your list of accomplishments David. He didn’t say *you* posted any graph, he said that “the posted graph is from Wikipedia” IE the posted graph you were defending.
We can add proofreading fail to my list of accomplishments 😉 previous post should have read:
“We can add reading comprehension fail along side your previous science comprehension fail to your list of accomplishments, David”
The idea that we know what the total heat content of the oceans back to 1960 is such a ridiculous claim, that only someone not interested in reality could make it.
They are trying to claim that the temperature of the oceans has increased by a few thousandths of a degree celsius when even today, we don’t know what the actual temperature of the ocean is to within 5C.
An important question is why humans are not considered ‘natural’ in the minds of greenies? If there was a massive increase in termite populations leading to massive rises in CO2 emissions, the greenies would see it as a good thing, Mother Nature’s way of raising low CO2 levels for the benefit of the planet. They wouldn’t be advocating the destruction of termite mounds in northern Australia to save the planet!
Sylvia
I say we just feed the greens to the termites, measure the increase in termite mounds, then measure climate change based on that controlled experiment.
Walter ==> Thanks for chiming in. Science has chased demons down many a rabbit hole in the past, and will do so again the the future. I have written a whole series here on Science Wars — Modern Science Controversies — which all follow a similar pattern.
I have faith that Science will come around and dispel the AGW doom and gloom in the end….when I can’t say.
‘”Without arguing about when “history” began, we can stipulate that the graph the European Geophysical Union gives us is an “accurate enough” picture of CO2 concentrations over the last thousand years.”
One of the reasons I am skeptical is that this CO2 analysis is accepted by the alarmists without any discussion of the dissenting data. There is good reason to distrust the ice core data and good chemical analysis data from the 1800s that have not been reasonably refuted and show short periods up to 400ppm before the modern measurements by Keeling. The chemical measurements match the Keeling curve pretty well where they overlap.
I cannot help but be skeptical when I know the story teller is leaving out part of the story.
It has definitely warmed in the last forty years, by far too short a time to make comparisons with thousand or two thousand year proxy-based reconstructions that are all over the place anyway.
According to the longest thermometer record, CET, there has been a gentle warming trend of maybe 1C since 1650 which is about as close to a reliable global indicator as possible, and no ‘hockey-stick’.
While the T trend post 1945 is the only relevant period for looking for human-induced CO2 forcing the putative surface records show an initial fall in temperature and no net warming until 1980, although an immediate drop in temperature has been gradually adjusted away.
According to HadCRUT4 for at least 45 of the 70 years since human emissions were significant there has been no definite positive correlation between rising human emissions (and CO2 in general) and temperature.
The period of positive correlation 1975 – 2005 happens also to include 1985-2000 when there was a drop in the tropics cloud cover of ~5% equivalent to a radiative net change of about 0.9 W/m2 (climate4you).
None of that means human CO2 emissions have had no effect however matters have gone well beyond all that, to start implementing radical economic prescriptions based on such flimsy empirical data over such a short period is madness.
It is odd thst a direct data set, the CET, is called regional, but a comoketely derived secondary proxy, some tree rings from a tiny number of trees, is global.
Quite a good essay, I say!
Steven ==> Thank you.
If someone asks you why you deny climate change, just say ”you are asking the wrong question because you do not understand the definition of climate”
They say…”what’s the definition of climate”?
You say…..”it’s made up”
They say.. ”what do you mean it’s made up?”
You say.. ”The going definition of climate is the average weather over thirty years”
They say.. ”Ok so that means the climate has changed because it has got warmer in the last 30 years”
You say… ”The 30 year figure is a completely arbitrary. It was made up to have a point of reference”
They say… ”But you need a point of reference to determine weather something is changing”
You say… ”Yes you do”
They say… ”So what is the correct definition?”
You say…. ”No one really knows but it’s probably many thousands of years going by the localized evolution of organisms”
They don’t say anything….
“You say…. ”No one really knows but it’s probably many thousands of years going by the localized evolution of organisms””
So explain why it is that the climate time period must match the evolutionary period of organisms.
Because the vast majority of plants, for example, have evolved to grow within a very limited range of temperatures and rainfall patterns which need to remain stable for huge expances of time. This can be evidenced by the fact that I can grow cold climate tree in my area but it’s seed will not be viable because it’s not cold enough. It needs a specific temperature range. A few degrees colder and it will die out, a few degrees warmer and it will die out. And yet there it is after thousands of years. Remember that some of these trees are still alive today after several thousand years. Therefore the temperature range in which it has evolved in has remained fairy constant for the thousands of years required for it’s evolution from warm climate to cool or vice versa. And therefore to use 30 years as a block of time to define climate, and worse, claim changes in climate is absolute nonsense.
The Wollemi Pine first appeared in the fossil record 200 million years ago.
On the 10th of September, 1994, 74 trees were discovered alive and well, 150 Kms west of Sydney, Australia.
They were thought to have become extinct between 2 million and 40 million years ago.
Either they aren’t effected by climate change, or the climate hasn’t changed that much in 200 million years. Take your pick.
Read some more here… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollemia
Thanks Chris in HB
I know which one I pick!
Plants have evolved over millions of years. We don’t need to wait millions of years – or even thousands – to know that severe drought is bad for plants, or for grazing animals. We don’t need to wait thousands of years to know that receding glaciers will cause water availability problems for 100s of millions of people. We don’t need to wait thousands of years to know that if Greenland and Antarctica melt, it will have catastrophic impacts on coastlines.
Chris
What sever droughts other than those we already live with are you talking about?
Receding glaciers produce water. Advancing glaciers don’t. Think about it, take your time now.
We do need to wait thousands of years for Greenland and Antarctica to melt though, because that’s how long it’ll take them.
Nor would any coastline change be accomplished by some mega tsunami, it will take hundreds of years, plenty of time for humanity to adapt.
Stop re running Sharknado to frighten yourself.
This whole sea level rise threat is such a farce anyway. Even if all 200000 glaciers in the world melted the sea level rise would only be 400mm. That is less than 16 inches. Antarctica will never melt; even if global average temperatures go up 4C; because almost all of the continent is way below freezing even in the Antarctic summer. Since the Arctic ice sits on the ocean; sea level would only rise by about 20mm (because most of that ice is salty) if the whole Arctic melted. What is left to melt? Greenland. Okay Consider this. So even if the CAGW alarmists are right and the temp rises to 4C over today, how much of Greenland would melt? Well in the vast interior of Greenland only the very top of the ice melts in the summertime. Even the IPCC has stated that a 3C global rise in temperature over the next 80 years would only result in a 1 metre rise in sea level. I dispute that because the vast majority of Greenland’s ice sheet never even comes close to reaching 0C. It would take a much larger increase of temperature to melt it. Everybody just seems to take the alarmist view on this without looking at the actual size of ice that would have to melt. Recently an engineer calculated that it would take 105000 years to melt the Antarctica even if you had all the energy of the world running blowtorches melting the ice. Greenland is not nearly as big but to try and melt even a thousandth of Greenland even if you had access to industrial melters on every last inch of the Greenland interior, would be a futile task. Greenland has 2,850,000 km3 of ice.
All of it would have to melt to raise sea level by 7 metres. This is just not going to happen especially even with a 4C average global temperature rise which is at the high catastrophic range of IPCC predictions. You just cannot melt that large a block of ice with air temperatures 4C higher . This is because you are dealing with averages here. The summit which is 2 miles above sea level in the interior has an air temperature range of -26C in winter to 0C in summer. Summer in this part of Greenland is only 2 months long. Temperatures in the other 10 months of the year are below
-10 C. So 2 months of summer is just not enough time to melt an appreciable amount of ice. Increasing the average global temperature by 4C will not make the interior go above freezing because of the elevation.
Additionally, the weight of the Greenland ice has depressed the interior of the continent and disrupted any drainage that existed prior to being covered in ice. If the ice should be completely melted, a significant fraction of the water won’t make it to the oceans until isostatic rebound removes the ‘bowl.’ The bottom line is that theoretical calculations converting the ice volume of Greenland to an increase in ocean level overstates the immediate effect.
I would also like to draw your attention to this graph
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/event-tracker/new-record-temperature-southwest-greenland
It shows the alltime record summer temp for Summit station in inland Greenland. Notice that it barely got above 0C. Since summers are only 2 months long here how in the hell is Greenland supposed to melt any appreciable amount even if global temps went up 4C. The summit is 2 miles high and the mean thickness of the ice in all of Greenland is 2135 metres or 7000 ft. Since this total of ice is 2850000 km3 , how would this melt in 2 months? It wouldn’t. fall and winter would come and the ice would refreeze. Spring would come again and as you see on the graph there wouldn’t be any melting in the spring even if global world temperatures soared above an increase of 4C. Sure Greenland has been losing ice mass over last 20 years but this has happened thousands of times in the past. There was less ice at the end of the 1930s in Greenland than there is today. A new study by Niesen et al.,2018 shows that 8000 years ago was 2-3 C warmer than today with peaks as high as 5C higher and the greenland ice mass diminished only 20% in 3000 years at those increased temperatures.
To further cement this hypothesis of Greenland ice sheet not melting from of top, there have been studies that the melting is happening from underneath because of a volcanic ridge extending from Iceland right to the Arctic. Even the alarmist scientists are admitting that the top of Greenlands interior ice sheet is not melting and that the upper surface every year gets fresh snow/ice and the reason that there is a net loss of ice is the amount of icebergs calving off on the shore line. These icebergs have calved off for millions of years and the volcanic activity has come and gone for millions of years.The alarmists will argue that the calving of the icebergs on the coast of Greenland is increasing with global warming.
However, that demonstrates a lack of understanding of just how calving works. Calving is a breakup of ice shelfs at the coast caused by pressure from the ice sheets as the ice is forced to the sea. Calving is just as likely to happen when it is cold or warm. Calving has been going on ever since Greenland formed ice sheets.
The global alarmist position is a farce on every level.
No we don’t need to wait thousands of years to know your issues above are bad.
No-one ever said that.
What I am saying is that you cannot claim that climate is changing right now. All you can say is that the weather has changed somewhat lately and that climate MAY be changing but there is no proof whatsoever. And, given history, it almost unquestionably is not changing.
“Because the vast majority of plants, for example, have evolved to grow within a very limited range of temperatures and rainfall patterns”
This is not true.
You obviously know little about horticulture. Why is it that European beech will not set viable seeds where I am (coastal) yet up in the hills a mere 30 miles from here where the average temps are perhaps 4 or 5 degrees cooler on average, they can? I would say 4 or 5 degrees C is a narrow range. No plant can exist for long at temps below 0 C and above about 55 C. It takes several generations (perhaps hundreds) of genetic mutation to keep up with a permanent change in climate and then only up o a point. Or maybe you believe evolution takes a matter of a few decades?
How long has the Great Barrier Reef been there?
It’s quite obvious that this planet has, by pure chance, a self regulating moderate climate and lucky for us! Steady enough for long enough and in enough places for life to exist regardless of huge past Co2 variations, glaciations, ice ages and etc.
If we are talking 30 years, shouldn’t we recalculate every year using the past 30, record changes and present all thirty year periods separately in a chart?
Kip,
That second claim (“Human activity causes [some of] it.”) you should ‘deny’, because it simply isn’t true. There is absolutely no observational evidence from the real Earth system to support it. In fact, all the relevant data point in the opposite direction; the Sun, not Man, is responsible:
https://okulaer.wordpress.com/2018/03/24/the-data-sun-not-man-is-what-caused-and-causes-global-warming/
https://okulaer.wordpress.com/2018/03/24/the-data-supplementary-discussions/
https://okulaer.wordpress.com/2018/06/26/verifying-my-near-global-1985-2017-olr-record/
“There is absolutely no observational evidence from the real Earth system to support it.”
Of course there is. https://phys.org/news/2015-02-carbon-dioxide-greenhouse-effect.html
Chris – Re your reference. As an excellent statistician pointed out to me often: “corellation is not causation.”
Correlation might or might not indicate causation. Lack of correlation definitely indicates lack of causation.
Technically, the causation is separation from the correlation. You are correct in the lack of correlation excludes causality (except when we don’t want it to) so looking at correlation first can exclude factors that are not causal.
“Chris – Re your reference. As an excellent statistician pointed out to me often: “corellation is not causation.””
Except that is not only correlation.
It is a direct measurement of increased forcing of back-radiated LWIR due to increasing atmospheric CO2 levels from 2 dry locations, over a continuous period of 10 years.
Spectrographically measured.
If you dont like the forcing calculations from Radiative transfer physics then you need to get onto the Gov as MODTRAN was part developed by the military.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MODTRAN
“Some aspects of MODTRAN are patented by Spectral Sciences, Inc. and the US Air Force, who have shared development responsibility for the code and related radiation transfer science collaboratively since 1987. The acronym MODTRAN was registered as a trademark of the US Government, represented by the US Air Force, in 2008”
Anthony Banton
The measurement methods aren’t the problem, the data source is the problem. See my response to Chris above.
The study demonstrates the “greenhouse effect”. So what?
When they make the leap to blaming humanity is when the study stops being scientific and moves into the realm of superstition and witch-finding
Duh, the measurements – not “the study”- shows the increase in forcing due to higher CO2 levels.
Yep, the measurements certainly do. As I said, it demonstrates the greenhouse effect. As for the self-flagellation that the study then begins to delve into, well that’s just religious belief.
It doesn’t just demonstrate the greenhouse affect, it demonstrates the increasing in forcing that has occurred over time due to CO2. Maybe you didn’t read that part of the article.
Define forcing and exactly where we got that term from. As far as I can see, it’s fudge factors to get the answer desired.
You are making the case that you don’t understand that correlation does not prove causation. And, it looks like you are going to stick to it.
That CO2 will have the same affect in nature that it does in a lab is an assumption. It is not proven.
Nature is dominated by negative feedbacks, most of which are still poorly understood.
Chris
Wrong, as usual.
Oh, I read it. But it was junk.
Andy Wilkins said: “Oh, I read it. But it was junk.”
So enlighten us as to why it’s junk.
That study only predicts about 0.6C of warming for a doubling of CO2.
Not anything to worry about.
Chris
Duh, the measurements are bogus.
HotScot, what is your evidence that the measurements are bogus?
Now explain how a simple laboratory experiment extrapolates into the hugely complex real world.
Chris
And if you actually look at the data you will notice, amongst other glaring problems with the study, is that the temperature measurements were taken from the depths of the 2000 La Nina, and ended at the 2010 El Nino.
Remind me again, what are your scientific qualifications?
HotScot, the study Chris references did not measure temperature.
David Dirkse
Kip’s statements were:
1. Global Warming is happening
2. Human activity causes [some of] it.
Kristian’s statement was:
“There is absolutely no observational evidence from the real Earth system to support it.”
Chris’s response was to post a discredited paper that has been occasionally brandished by idiotic alarmists who can’t be bothered to check the credibility of it, as evidence that man made CO2 causes global warming.
The paper wasn’t investigating temperature per se, but to ‘prove’ it’s point, it had to use a temperature range, which was bogus.
HotScot says: “The paper wasn’t investigating temperature per se”
..
Thank you
..
That is the point I made.
They were measuring the increase in downwelling IR as it relates to the increase in ppm concentration in the time period. Your posting a temperature graph is irrelevant to what they actually measured.
David Dirkse
“That is the point I made.”
No it wasn’t, and kindly don’t misrepresent what I post.
HotScot criticizes David for supposedly misrepresenting his post, but is quite happy to misrepresent mine. The paper has not been discredited, if it has please post links to that.
The paper makes no mention of temperature, it’s false to say that it did. In fact, I just reread the article, the word temperature doesn’t appear anywhere in the entire article.
Chris
I didn’t misrepresent you post. Crying ‘why me’ again doesn’t make you look any better. I said the measurements are bogus. That’s not a misrepresentation.
And here’s the evidence to discredit your study. Chapter and verse if you have the gumption to actually read it.
https://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-new-paper-does-not-provide-evidence.html
Like I repeat time after time. 40 years of the best scientific minds in the world desperate to demonstrate CO2 causes global warming, and the best they can come up with is this. A single discredited paper in all that time!
Either they are utterly incompetent or the phenomenon just doesn’t exist.
Which is it Chris? Two simple choices, or is even that beyond you?
HotScot – the paper doesn’t remotely refute the findings. It calls the forcing measurements theoretically derived, which is false. They were measured.
Chris
What paper doesn’t refute what findings?
Be specific, it helps.
Oh, and you are lying when you said you did not misprepresent my post. Your temperature graph is from the HockeySchtick blog, not even from the paper. There is no mention of temperature in the article I posted.
Chris
Possibly why it wasn’t included in the article. It’s a graphical representation that makes it blindingly obvious the temperature ranges selected are inappropriate, to say the least.
Where is it writ that a critique of a paper can’t include information not provided therein?
And yes, you did post an ‘article’ not the paper.
HotScot, criticizing a paper about forcing measurements using temperature data is irrelevant. The words “temperature ranges selected are inappropriate” are irrelevant. The paper is about forcing measurements.
[?? .mod]
Chris
Keep flailing, it’s funny to watch.
I hold a similar position to Kip and I’m OK with this study. If it holds any surprises at all, it is how little increase there was. Over 10 years they measured an increase in what they call “Surface forcing” (a.k.a. back radiation) of 0.2 W/m^2.
That’s nothing! (or have I made a mistake?) That’s only 2 W/m^2 per century.
That any change that could be caused by CO2 still less than natural variability is not evidence that there is no change being caused by CO2.
Kristian ==> That “Human activity causes [some of] it.” is not controversial, even among hard-core fringe skeptics. Urbanization, nearly clear-cutting half a continent, massive CO2 emissions, etc are certainly enough to allow that “Human activity causes [some of] it.”
There are basic physical principles that must be allowed to rule the physical world.
The nut in contention is “causes how much?”, “which causes cause how much?” and “what do we think the mid- to long-term results will be?”