Guest essay by Eric Worrall
Californian local governments trying to sue Chevron, Exxon and other oil majors are facing some entertainingly direct questions from Judge Alsup, as he tries to determine why the plaintiffs think oil companies owe them compensation.
Climate Change Judge’s Homework: Was Industrialization Worth It?
By Kartikay Mehrotra
25 May 2018, 08:12 GMT+10
Attorneys for the cities of Oakland and San Francisco and Chevron Corp.have homework from Judge William Alsup: prepare 10-page legal analyses on whether a century of American dependence on fossil fuels was worth the global warming it caused.
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“We needed oil and fossil fuels to get from 1859 to the present,” said Alsup, 72, who hosted a five-hour climate-change tutorial in March. “Yes, that’s causing global warming. But against that negative, we need to weigh-in the larger benefits that have flowed from the use of fossil fuels. It’s been a huge, huge benefit.”
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“You’re asking for billions of dollars for something that hasn’t happened yet,” said Alsup during a back-and-forth with plaintiffs’ attorney Steve Berman. “We’re trying to predict how bad global warming will be in 75 years.”
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Oil is not tobacco. Whatever harm you think oil does to the world, oil also delivers a lot of benefits. Deep greens might believe the world would be better without fossil fuels – but I doubt many normal people would agree with them.
Sabotage, literally throwing a wooden Sabot, shoe , into the works , is an old “tradition”. Luddite alleged “death to machines” the same.
I will visit this weekend the cemetery where much of my father’s family is buried. My great-grandfather died at the age of 92 in 1959. I never knew him. I was born three years after he died.
But I have a photos of him. In one, he is in an open field wearing a straw hat. He is waving at the camera while walking behind a team of mules plowing the ground. He is filthy. Covered in dirt – a consequence of walking behind mules who kick dirt up in your face from sun up to sun down.
The photo is not dated. But he looked like he was maybe 40 years old or so. So around 1907. It’s amazing to me he lived to be 92 given his hard life.
Prior to industrialization, around half the population lived like that. Today, maybe 1-2% of the population are engaged in agriculture. The man who farms the exact same land where the photo of my great grandfather was taken rides in air conditioned cab tractor all day rather than walking behind mules kicking dirt up in his face. He can listen to Mozart, rather than day dream about whatever my geat-grandfather daydreamed about to ease his monotony. The farmer today goes home at night just as clean as when they started “work” in the morning.
Romanticizing pre-industrial times is lunacy. Nobody wants to set the clock back 100 years and live that kind of lifestyle. People who do don’t understand how hard that kind of life is.
Prince Charles does, for the masses of course. The lunacy comes from the very few.
bonbon
Of course big ears, bu**er lugs Charlie couldn’t conceive of a time he would actually be forced to grub for food like the commoners.
I respect our Queen for her dignity through a difficult social and technological transition over her lifetime.
The rest are just hangers on and need to go.
Once Elizabeth has gone, the entire concept of British Royalty should be dissolved and their wealth and property handed back to society.
Hotscot,
Have to agree. That jug-eared twit should never be let anywhere near the red dispatch box. Nor his idiot, N@zi spawn, either. Although at least Harry served in the ‘Stan.
Britain should return to its Anglo-Saxon tradition and elect its monarch. That would give the House of Lords something to do, while preserving ceremony to attract the tourists.
Instead of the witangemoot choosing the most qualified aetheling or ealderman, let the Lords pick the next monarch from among the most distinguished Britons willing to serve as monarch in their retirement years. That should keep bribery and politicking for the position to a minimum.
Keep the present constitution, but toss the dysfunctional, looming Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg dynasty.
HotScot, without the royalty, Britain would have no tourism industry.
When I was a child we were all taught how not to fall into the sh#t pot, in the ‘thunderbox’ (backyard outhouse toilet), because young kids did fall in to them and then tragically drown in a metal bin full of urine, fecies and writhing with maggots. It was taken away on Tuesdays and an empty pot put in its place. Which was always welcome.
I didn’t experience an indoor toilet untill I was six, and stayed at a motel in Perth. What genius! It didn’t stink, no flies, couldn’t fall in and drown, didn’t need butcher paper to clean up, didn’t need to put a tin can full of saw dust over it to cut diwn the stench and msggots. Nope, just flush, looked spotlessly clean, no stink, and bacteria ate it all in a sealed concrete septic tank. Brilliant!
People who never lived through any of that are the ignorant greenie fools who think industrial development and technology is a bad thing.
I bet that Judge is old enough to have experienced a thunderbox, so won’t be falling for the childish immaturity and life inexperience of such whining useless “no-hopers”.
That’s what everyone here used to call them, but now they call themselves the ‘Greens’, and are all enlightened, and wise, ‘n stuff.
No, they’re are just repackaged regular garden variety no-hopers. Back then no one ever listened to them, everyone could see that they were clearly ‘mad’.
Now many of them go to teacher’s college, get a journalism degree, find work in a University’s Administration staff, or else infest a govt office.
Heh. I’m old enough to remember those and the house had a flush toilet with city water. Not everyone in the neighborhood was that fortunate; but most were. Granddad kept the outhouse as a reminder, until the city ordinance required removal of them. It was still functional, by the way. Also, by the way, central unit HVAC systems were not as common as city water and sewage. They were just becoming a thing when I was a wee lad. My children and grandchildren have never lived in such a world, beyond going camping. So yeah, I can dig a latrine, if needed, not that I’d want to if I could help it.
Ehhh, you were lucky. We had to work and go to sleep in our latrines, 25 hours a day…
Cost-benefit. There’s a radical concept. Were I offering a report to the judge I would include a picture of the court room in session with the plaintiffs and annotate what they have on that came from o&g including the varithane on the woodwork and gavel….
A good point Gary.
And further: Ask how it is intended to produce a Wind Turbine without the use of fossil fuels. similarly with Solar panels. Also how does one produce steel or aluminium with intermittent power? What about digging up Cobalt or Lithium from the ground for all those batteries?
There are endless questions that can be asked here.
It will emerge that the consequences of NOT using fossil fuels are far more disasterous than that of using them, even if you accept the hypothesis that they do contribute in some way to potential global warming.
Just shut down your heavy industrial users when renewables are not available. Load curtailment, load management, end user conservation, etc.
As it was Astrology that led to Astronomy.
Sorry. the basic spell check which plagues us all. My bad.
So the litigants want the heretics to pay for absolution from their denial of the litigants beliefs, based on a preiction they cannot prove and whose real effects have not yet occured, have not occured as claimed by te litigants, and are based on beleif, in a prophesy that is not supported by any provable physical facts. Sounds like trying to impose a religion or cult by law to me.
From the article: “You’re asking for billions of dollars for something [CAGW damages] that hasn’t happened yet,” said Alsup during a back-and-forth with plaintiffs’ attorney Steve Berman.”
And it is something that may never happen.
So far, I’m liking this judge. He seems to have his head on straight and is asking the right questions.
Alsup is also an engineer so fogging and handwaves are not as useful as they usually seem to be.
Without industrialization, proponents of suing the oil companies would not have achieved the level of comfort to allow time to complain about industrialization. Why aren’t all judges laughing? I guess they appreciate the entertainment. Judges need to have fun too.
The effect of Industrialization shown by rising income levels since 1800. The graph shows the gross national product (at purchasing power parity) per capita between 1750 and 1900 in 1990 US dollars for First World nations (Europe, United States, Canada, Japan) and Third World nations (Asia, Africa, Latin America).
From Bairoch, 1995.
Much more so since then.
A few observations here:
1) The Plaintiffs are not about to ask for an injunction to ban the sale of fossil fuels and their derivatives. Just requesting one would be politically disastrous – and it is politics driving the bus here.
2) The Hon. Judge Alsup is not about to issue such an injunction on his own. It would be swiftly vacated by the far Left 9th Circuit Appeals Court – and that decision would undoubtedly cast doubt on the probity of the judge, allowing the Plaintiffs to judge shop for one of their own (they were extremely unlucky in the assignment here).
3) The Hon. Judge is forcing the Plaintiffs to place their “facts” into the record, in a venue where the Defendants can dispute those “facts” in the same venue. His courtroom is not RealClimate (although some are; as I said, unlucky assignment here).
4) When and if an actual decision on the facts adverse to the Plaintiffs is issued – not a settlement, not a dismissal (hope that Exxon, et. al., stay the course here, people) – the Appeals Court can’t do all that much to overturn it, so long as he dots every “i”, crosses every “t”, on the law. The decision then becomes precedent – which is the legal equivalent, just about, of getting your book included into the Holy Bible. Lawfare by the “Greens” becomes far more difficult. Especially when the a different, far Left Court, issues a contrary decision, giving SCOTUS a perfect opportunity to grant certiorari – and who will be in control of the Supreme Court by then, hmmm?
5) Assuming that #4 above comes to pass – I will start researching the process to have the Hon. Judge Alsup awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Writing Observer
Re: point 4.
I imagine Exxon will encourage a settlement or a dismissal, for the very reason you cite. Irrespective of the long term benefits to Exxon, or mankind for that matter, setting yet another legal precedent is contrary to the philosophy of free trade.
Exxon, like most commercial organisations, want fewer restrictions to free trade, not more.
Uh, HotScot, there are no free trade issues here.
Exxon is not there to make political points, HotScot. They just want to win the lawsuit in the most efficient manner possible. They are in no way in the skeptics camp. They are in the profit camp; if it takes feel-good greenie gestures, so be it.
Average lifespans.
1750-1800, 36 years.
1800-1850, 37 years.
1850-1900, 40 years.
1900-1950, 48 years.
1950-2000, 68 years.
2000-2050, 78 years projected.
http://www.legacy.com/life-and-death/home.html
Enough said.
When I joined the company in 1968 the average length of time pensions were drawn was 18 months, now it is almost 18 years.
Which was the first hydro electric power plant?
Was it Niagara?
Cragside, 1868, still working
Ahead of their time?
“A massive campaign must be launched to de-develop the United States. De-development means bringing our economic system into line with the realities of ecology and the world resource situation.” —Dr. Paul Ehrlich, Anne Ehrlich, and Dr. John Holdren, Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment, 1970, p. 323
Yes one of the main differences between oil and tobacco, and there’s quite a few, is they energy is fundamentally required, smoking is not.
“Attorneys for the cities of Oakland and San Francisco and Chevron Corp.have homework from Judge William Alsup: prepare 10-page legal analyses on whether a century of American dependence on fossil fuels was worth the global warming it caused.”
Having worked with attorneys on environmental issues, I’d say the attorney’s were the last people I’d have asked that question to. For the simple reason that if the facts don’t square with their narrative the lawyer’s will simply lie.
Dave : Isn’t THIS the time to argue the case for NATURAL CYCLICAL
GLOBAL WARMING and producing evidence that” Man-released-CO2 ”
IS ACTUALLY BENEFICIAL ?
That would establish that NO DAMAGE has been done and therefore
NO COMPENSATION is due.
How about a legal precedent? B.C.’s nine-page statement of claim alleges the intent of Alberta’s bill is to hurt to the province.
“A significant disruption in the supply of gasoline, diesel, and crude oil from Alberta to British Columbia would cause British Columbia irreparable harm,” the document asserts. “In addition to economic harm, a sudden disruption in supply could injure human health and safety in remote communities.”
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/bc-files-legal-challenge-to-alberta-law/ar-AAxEIED
There is an ongoing dispute between Alberta and British Columbia over pipelines. BC has effectively and unconstitutionally, blocked Alberta’s oil exports via a new pipeline. Alberta has threatened to cut off all pipelines coming and going to BC. BC gets most of it’s oil for gasoline from Alberta. Also most of BCs natural gas exports get to market via Alberta pipelines.
BC is making a threat to sue Alberta for effectively doing what BC is doing. The most ironic part is BCs claim that cutting them off of oil would “
“Was Industrialization Worth It?”
Who does Alsup think he is posing such a question?
Has the USA gone mad?
Delusional judiciary!
Delusional attorneys!
Delusional politicians!
Delusional administrators!
Delusional public!
Delusional big oil!
You simply can’t make this stuff up . . .
So far, so good! Alsup appears to be a pragmatic engineer/judge, requesting verifiable facts as substantiation for claims.
The most damning hypocrisies are the claims of harm from the protagonist cities, while failing to disclose the financial risks from those claimed ‘harms’ in their respective government bond issues. The Securities and Exchange Commission puts folks in prison for those types of ‘failure to disclose risks’ omissions!
Sadly, J Mac, it is all political kabuki and the SEC will not get involved. The SEC is also political in nature.
These lawsuits are a raid on the pension plans. Unfortunately the oil companies are not smart enough to shut the fuel off to cities that launch these racketeering lawsuits.
I enjoy the picture of the camper and tents.
Koch industries bought fibers from Dupont and produce the Nylon, dacron and fibers, chemicals for coatings. Invista. When a greenie weenie gets their panties in a bunch, Koch fibers are right there. Koch must be demonized. lol
What happens if the plaintiffs submit a scandalous crock that goes unchallenged, such as “Michael Mann’s hockey stick isn’t really the worst case of scientific malfeasance since the Piltdown Man”, and this same assertion then rears it’s ugly carapace elsewhere in, say, a libel trial, and is claimed as a “fact”?
Scandalous crocks rarely go unchallenged in U.S. tort cases, Michael.
This reminds of what have the Romans done for us? Instead of Romans replace with oil or industrialization.
http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html
All these people against this are a hypocrite using any products from oil or industrial revolution.
I’ve been saying for years, this was going to be the next tactic.