Guest Essay by Kip Hansen
This is a follow-on to Bob Tisdale’s recent piece on Wisconsin’s Department of Natural Resources’ changes to its Great Lakes climate change statement.
If you read his article and didn’t click through to the original article by Lee Bergquist in the Wisconsin Journal Sentinal, you might have missed how significant this change was.
Here it is in pictures: [click each for larger images]
In 2012, the page looked like this:
The red boxed link is to the infamous Wisconsin Climate Change Activity Guide provided as a resource to teachers of grades 7-12. It can still be found cached in the WebArchive [aka the Wayback Machine]. Today, it is no longer linked from the Great Lakes page and the link to it in present time returns “Page Not Found”.
Today:
Instead of the “AGW party line” statement on the 2012 page (which existed until last week), we have a more carefully considered statement:
“The Great Lakes and a changing world
As it has done throughout the centuries, the earth is going through a change. The reasons for this change at this particular time in the earth’s long history are being debated and researched by academic entities outside the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources.
The effects of such a change are also being debated but whatever the causes and effects, the DNR’s responsibility is to manage our state’s natural resources through whatever event presents itself; flood, drought, tornadoes, ice/snow or severe heat. The DNR staff stands ready to adapt our management strategies in an effort to protect our lakes, waterways, plants, wildlife and people who depend on them.”
This is a magnificently crafted statement – and a huge pull-back from heretofore obligatory echoing of the IPCC consensus talking points.
But this is not the only big change I have seen this past week in the presentation of climate change. The big change, if it is in fact an editorial change, appeared in another story previously covered here at WUWT, in the New York Times:
“California, at Forefront of Climate Fight, Won’t Back Down to Trump”
By Adam Nagourney and Henry Fountain
Dec. 26, 2016
[This little exerpt:]
“President-elect Donald J. Trump has packed his cabinet with nominees who dispute the science of global warming. He has signaled he will withdraw the United States from the Paris climate agreement. He has belittled the notion of global warming and attacked policies intended to combat it.”
Three weeks ago, in a news report titled “Energy Trends Outpace Plans for the E.P.A.” (Dec 09, 2016) – by Coral Davenport, this language was used: “President-elect Donald J. Trump’s choice of a fossil-fuel advocate and climate-change denier to head the Environmental Protection Agency comes at a moment when the American energy market has already shifted away.”
Nagourney and Fountain don’t use the phrase “climate-change denier” nor the oft-repeated but false notion that the President-elect “believes climate change is a hoax”, rather they use the more correct phrase “dispute the science of climate change”.
In fact, the last times both terms were used in the New York Times, outside of the Opinion page, were in an article by Clifford Krauss and Maggiue Heberman on December 10th, “Exxon Mobil Chief Rises on Secretary of State List“, “…Mr. Trump has called climate change a hoax created by the Chinese for business reasons, and has named a climate change denier, Scott Pruitt…” and in a news review article posted to the NY Times online on Dec 12 : “Climate Change News That Stuck With Us in 2016” in which John Schwartz (a NY Times environmental journalist) is quoted “How do you talk about climate change during a presidential administration that denies it’s happening? President-elect Donald J. Trump has called climate change a hoax…”. (This last did not appear “in print” online until Dec 14 and the entries from various journalists were probably written before the Krauss/Heberman story even though they appear several days later).
It now has been two weeks and counting since such language appeared in any NY Times news article. One can only hope that this represents a change in editorial policy — a change to the style manual of the NY Times.
How long can one of the world’s leading newspapers continue to publicly label US Presidential Cabinet members with the nasty epithet “climate denier” and repeat the untruth that the President-elect believes* that “climate change is a hoax” – something that he has repeatedly denied?
I do not know if this represents a real change at the NY Times but I certainly hope so.
# # # # #
* His official views on climate change are shared here for anyone who cares. He has said “a lot of it” [global warming] “is a hoax” — a matter of opinion shared by many — and he freely admits to once have publicly jokingly tweeted – in 2012 – that it was ‘perpetrated by China to steal our factories’.
# # # # #
Author’s Comment Policy:
I love to read and respond to your comments. I have almost zero interest in US two-party politics, which I consider to be “what’s wrong with the American governmental system”. I will not be discussing the back-and-forth of Republican-vs-Democrat politics, and prefer that it be skipped here.
This essay is about how Climate Change is portrayed in public – on governmental websites like that of the DNR of Wisconsin and in the press. With the Presidential election results expected to deflate and/or depower the pressure to conform to IPCC climate consensus talking points, it will be interesting to see how public statements change and how the press changes its portrayal of the issue in the news.
Please comment with examples that you are seeing in your local papers and on local television.
We just might be seeing the first wave of change.
# # # # #
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I’m still seeing the boilerplate warnings about “climate change” damaging various
archeological sites in most of the archeological reviews and reports coming out…
even though many of those sites were set and built in lush surroundings a couple
thousand years ago.
The irony of brining up “climate change” as a parenthetical topic in these
circumstances seems lost on most of the writers, editors, and readers.
Desertification, ocean rise, land subsidence, along with natural flooding, tsunamis,
and earthquakes have shadowed man’s march toward civilization for the past five
millennia.
Not to speak of the environmental change that the presence of archeologists brings to the sites!
R.S. Brown ==> If we are to see a change from the pressured echoing of boilerplate IPCC talking points, it will be slower, I think, in the “Learned Societies”. Certainly, papers appearing in journals this month were written well before the election — and editorial policy will be slower to change than the text of papers.
I expect to see the simple omission of AGW language first — dropping usual the kowtowing paragraph about AGW.
The simple truth is that those studying climate in the sense of atmospheric physics, knew long ago that the models had failed. But for obvious reasons they have been in no rush to say they were wrong. Which then means a lot of other people who once upon a time were being told “climate change is certain” … are still relying on some pretty old statements which no longer reflect the honest viewpoint of most academics.
In reality it’s gone from “we’re certain we’re right” … to “we’re not certain we’re wrong” … which means there is absolutely no requirement on them to correct previous statements.
Recently it has been political suicide in Canada to dispute CAGW. Stephen Harper pretended that he was doing something about it. Everyone had to give it lip service.
The Canadian province of Alberta has bent over backwards to show that it is reducing ‘carbon pollution’. (Yes I know the premier is NDP.) There was a concerted campaign to ban and shut in Alberta’s oil sand production because it was ‘dirty’. The province had no choice but to show that it was dealing with ‘carbon pollution’. The premier had to crawl on her knees to New York and grovel before the rich and powerful. Disputing the science behind CAGW was not a possibility.
Certainly, the election of President Trump has given people hope and stiffened their spines. People who previously kept their mouths shut for fear of the consequences will now speak up. We will see if it is the tide gently turning or a tsunami.
So sorry that Alberta bent over cagw pressure. Here in Quebec we are so submerge by cagw dogma that i can’t see how we cant get out of it even if US pave the way.
She (the premier of Alberta) . had to crawl on her knees to New York and grovel before the rich and powerful
She didn’t grovel she gleefully offered herself …
The coming series of severe cold weather that the 30 year cooling cycle will bring Canada to its senses pretty quickly. And last night, yet another blizzard on my NY mountain…winter is closing in on us all.
Here in Ontario, the electricity rates have skyrocketed forcing our liberals (Kathleen Wynne) to publicly apologies to the plebs. Unfortunately, the only way they know how to fix anything is to throw more money at it (debt), raise taxes (cap and trade) or sell off government (public) holdings for short term profit. This is on top of pay-for-play and bribery scandals. I wish I could be a liberal, I could max out my credit cards, beg for money, put a reverse mortgage on my house and not save for retirement. Life would be easy.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-premier-kathleen-wynne-calls-high-electricity-prices-her-mistake/article32946738/
pretty good piece about that here –
http://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2016/12/31/skeptical_climate_scientists_coming_in_from_the_cold.html
‘Lindzen said. “Even in 1990 no one at MIT called themselves a ‘climate scientist,’ and then all of a sudden everyone was. They only entered it because of the bucks; they realized it was a gravy train. You have to get it back to the people who only care about the science” ‘.
Happer and Curry are hopeful but all seem realistic given the size of the purse.
Dr. Lindzen’s observation is a good starting point for a paper or dissertation on climate science.
We have the number of people who describe themselves as climate scientists vs. the increase in funding. The question has the advantage of being quantifiable. It also has the advantage of being fairly clear cut (to the extent that anything in the social sciences is clear cut).
The global warming petition project has topped out at about 31,000 signatures. http://www.petitionproject.org/ I personally have not signed it because my company deals with NASA and I don’t want us to get blackballed. Let’s see if more folks sign up because they feel less threatened by the AGW masters.
If you want to be really worry – whether some folks “feelings” about human caused “climate disruption” will change, read the NDP “Leap Manifesto”. Thinking may change but a lot of us will be shivering in he!! before it happens.
https://achemistinlangley.wordpress.com/2016/06/16/debunking-the-leap-manifestos-100-wind-water-and-sunlight-health-cost-statistics-for-canada/
Seriously, there ought to be a “Canadians for global warming” movement. More growing seasons, warmer weather, it’s all upside for Canada! So these alarmists in canada want to suffer so you can have longer winters and colder nights? Are they nuts?!?!
The problem is, according to the CAGC dogma, warming at higher latitudes will result in a ‘neutral or negative’ impact on agricultural production.
I do not know what logical hoops the IPCC went through in order to convert longer growing seasons and increased CO2 into a ‘neutral or negative’ impact, but it an accepted tenet of CAGW.
Seconded.
A clear demonstration of the raw power of propaganda. GK
Only one of the hottest days recorded in Canada, and above 43C, was this century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_temperatures_in_Canada
I looks like it was much more common in the late 30s and early 40s and only a few places get 2 days a year over 35C.https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/Canada/hottest-cities-summer.php
With irrigation, my old town that has an average of 6 days a year over 40C is one of the states food bowls. Its going to have to warm a lot more than claimed to turn Canada into a hot wasteland.
During the MWP the vikings were able to farm in Greenland. Warming at higher latitudes makes agriculture possible where it wasn’t possible before. As always, the warmists demonstrate the need for a liberal education because they clearly don’t have it. If they knew a smattering of history, they wouldn’t say such stupid stuff.
The DNR change the Tisdale brought to our attention looks a lot like “oh we’re not alarmsists, misinforming the public, we’re the good guys. Please don’t defund us”.
Expect a lot more of this as the alarmists climb over each others dead or dying bodies to grasp for last drops of gravy from the disappearing gravy train.
Thanks for that perspective, Greg. I hadn’t considered it.
Cheers for the New Year!!!
People are just sick and tired of 50 years of their doom and gloom alarmist crap…
The three bears….too cold….too hot…..never just right no matter what
As the infamous Captain Renault once said:
“I have no conviction, if that’s what you mean. I blow with the wind, and the prevailing wind happens to be from …………”
Wisconsin elected a GOP governor three times in a row (once in a recall attempt) and a GOP senator twice, while also choosing Trump for president. Both houses of the state legislature are controlled by Republicans. The DNR wisely read the writing on the wall.
Trump’s tweet said, “The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.”
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/03/hillary-clinton/yes-donald-trump-did-call-climate-change-chinese-h/
Tweets are so scientifically reliable.
politifact is so politically neutral.
He said it was a joke. I’ll take him at his word since it was a tweet and not repeated. People really should think twice about getting their news from twitter.
It may have been provocative campaign-speak, but it wouldn’t be out of the realms of possibility that the Chinese encouraged the UN to develop global warming as a massive wealth redistribution effort for Western countries, and supported it publicly, fully knowing that they would never abide by its dictates, hence profiting from the whole carbon taxing, eco-regulating, industry-decimating deal that it left to the West to implement.
Looking into the financial stream for many of these AGW NGOs would be interesting.
Maurice Strong (now deceased) retired and lived for many years in mainland China.
Considering that the result of the Paris accord was that the Chinese could continue to emit as much as they want, which means go from 10 billion to more than 15 billion tons, and the West would reduce dramatically…. he may have been, and was historically incorrect, but he was right about whose interests all this serves.
The Chinese didn’t invent it, we did this to ourselves, but they are not averse to profiting from our idiotic supposed solutions to the problem.
There are a lot of posters on this site who have invested a lot of hope and energy in the assumption that Trump is a skeptic with regard to climate change. If the writer of this article is correct, they may be deeply disappointed. Admittedly Trump may climb down from that lofty and somewhat extreme position in the same way has he has done with other claims and commitments he has made during the election, but there is plenty of material out there that suggests he was pretty convinced that climate change and the science was a con when he made the statements.
“There are a lot of posters on this site who have invested a lot of hope and energy in the assumption that Trump is a skeptic with regard to climate change. If the writer of this article is correct, they may be deeply disappointed.”
======
If the writer of the article is correct about what?
=====
“…there is plenty of material out there that suggests he was pretty convinced that climate change and the science was a con when he made the statements.”
=====
Are you saying that Trump will likely stand by his word, as evidence cited in the article regarding appointments indicates, and therefore a lot of posters who wanted a genuinely skeptical President will be disappointed … because they got one?
What point were to trying to make?
“If the writer of the article is correct about what?”
Read the article, Kipp’s stance is quite clear. Then read my comment again.
Trump’s ‘official’ position is, “There is still much that needs to be investigated in the field of “climate change.” (from the Science debate article). Certainly sounds like a skeptical view to me. He goes on to list several possible ‘better’ uses for the $29 billion we invest in ‘Climate Change Research’.
He is correct that the current trend to ‘renewable’ energy makes American (and European) manufacturing less competitive with their Chinese counterparts by raising our energy costs.
If Trump becomes aware of the Wisconsin headline, Dilbert, and others if they follow, it may embolden him to stay the course, Uhm he’s kind of a bold guy so I’m hoping he doesn’t need a whole lot of encouragement.
Exactly, Trump does need social support, especially in the present environment. It should even be possible to initiate a kind of positive feedback process between the administration and other concerned parties.
Gareth the next president is a closet member of the Denialati and won’t be climbing down or kowtowing to established thinking. Trump is a revolutionary and intends to demolish the AGW facade.
Ironicman.
So do you agree with the articles statements that :
“How long can one of the world’s leading newspapers continue to publicly label US Presidential Cabinet members with the nasty epithet “climate denier” and repeat the untruth that the President-elect believes* that “climate change is a hoax” – something that he has repeatedly denied?”
Gareth is twisting one tweet into an endless series of circular arguments.
Throws a strawman post in and then twists answers. A rather familiar thread derailing technique.
In another month, we will get some of the ideas just what Trump’s Administration will bring.
EPA’s actions were getting stopped in court during Obama. There is no reason to think that America’s return to reason will not continue under Trump.
Not forgetting that Trump has repeatedly identified regulatory burdens as a major business and freedom stifling problem; along with the departments and agencies pumping out that regulatory burden.
e.g. tax rebates and credits for businesses and objects in order to force the appearance of marketability.
Or adding a carbon tax burden to all people and businesses; a massive regulatory burden?
@ur momisugly Gareth…you are leaving out a crucial part of what was first stated.. Add in at the end of “…climate change is a hoax.. created by China.” That changes the message considerably. That is what Trump now claims was said in an offhand manner, a joke.
Come on man.
The Madness of crowds ends one by one as people start to question incorrect mania beliefs.
The Trump administration’s goals and proposed policies are based on logic, reason, facts, and analysis. Similar to the process a well-run business follows to solve problems and to remain competitive as opposed to chaos.
Observations and analysis does not support CAGW. Observations and analysis does not even support AGW. There is no AGW climate ‘change’ problem to solve.
Anyone care to defend CAGW with science as opposed to rhetoric?
Not much worry that the Trump administration will force the US to spend trillions of dollars on green scams which do not work.
The Trump administration will not attempt to force the US and the developed countries to send billions of dollars per year (current CAGW goal is to force $100 billion a year, rising to a trillion a year) to the UN for ‘climate change action’.
Have the trillions of dollars spent to date on ‘climate change action’ made any difference to ‘climate change’. Does the US or any other developed country have trillions of dollars to waste?
P.S. Compare the Trump administration to the EU. The EU super government has mandated that 20% of the EU budget be spent on ‘climate change’ action. Action includes lobbying and helping other countries lobby to push the madness.
Tripling the cost of electricity by forcing the US or other developed countries to spend money (there is no surplus money to spend) on green scams that do not work will make the US less competitive.
The US has a $700 billion per year trade imbalance. $500 billion/year of the $700 billion/year is with China.
The Trump administration will negotiate and make policies to try to make America great again (i.e. Bring jobs back to America, increase the number of good high paying jobs) as opposed to negotiating and creating policies that force money to be spent to fight ‘climate change’.
Dearest Gareth,
Donald Trump is the non-milquetoast leader millions of us deplorable, irredeemable, knuckle-dragging, climate denying, redneck, gun-toting, tax paying Americans have been waiting FOR DECADES to appear. You do as you like. As for me and mine, we’re going to give the man every opportunity to Make America Great Again.
Have a wonderful day!
Babsy
Thanks Babsy, and the same to you ( ps Wear gloves, they will protect your hands 🙂 )
My comments are really aimed at an odd dichotomy, the article suggests that calling Trump a denier or whatever is unfair because he certainly is not. But lots of posters here see him as the climate Messiah sent to wrest the truth from deceiving scientists. I’m not sure how the two positions can be resolved. Is the media correct in labelling him as someone who disbelieves the current theories on climate change, or is he what posters like yourself have been hoping for ‘for many’s the year,’ a sceptic in the Whitehouse?
ps I rather like your description of being a tax paying American. That obviously makes you quite different from your hero !
I have two questions: 1) How did our forebearers survive as a nation before the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment?
2) How would you know DJT has paid no tax unless you’d seen his returns?
Gareth ==> I’d be glad to clear up your “odd dichotomy”. The basic point is that there is no dichotomy — it is a false dichotomy to insist that one is either a “climate change denier” or “not a climate change denier”. The very phrase “climate change denier” is a nasty epithet invented to vilify anyone who disagrees or disputes IPCC mandated viewpoints or recommended solutions — though almost all climate scientists have disagreements on some points (see the details of any of the IPCC reports).
President-elect Trump’s official position is that “There is still much that needs to be investigated in the field of ‘climate change.'” There is no doubt that President-elect Trump has strong objections to many of the policies put in place by President Obama as “solutions” to climate change. Differing opinions on policy are to be expected, and many on the lukewarm and skeptic side of the climate debate are pleased that Trump disagrees with Obama and intends to make some changes in policy, some of them predicted to be quite major.
This has nothing to do with two-party politics. As in all social controversies, it is a rare event to find individuals who are 100% FOR and 100% AGAINST. Only propagandists present the controversy that way, by making Straw Men for each “side” and contrasting them for propaganda purposes. In Climate Science, each individual scientist has their own set of understandings, their own uncertainties, and their own opinions. Politicians the same.
Extreme polarization and extreme labels are not useful when speaking of individuals and are almost never correct.
What, exactly, is wrong about taking advantage of legal loopholes to pay as little tax as is possible? I have yet to see anyone offering to pay MORE than the absolute minimum that they can arrange to pay.
Kip Hansen
“Extreme polarization and extreme labels are not useful when speaking of individuals and are almost never correct.”
This is true Kip. Great pity it’s ignore by a significant number of posters to this site.
It seems pretty clear to me as a long time political observer that any office holder who utterly divorces himself (or herself) from the basic policy tenets that he ( or she) was elected on will find at re-election time that the support that got him (or her) there has permanently evaporated and a second term is not gonna happen. Hillary biggest anchor was that people who might have voted Democrat were convinced she was a liar.
Gareth
Trump’s commitment to the “hoax” stuff may be unclear, but as president he will have much bigger fish to fry (Supreme court, ISIS, national debt, EPA, China, Iran, N Korea…). Fighting CAGW and the IPCC are probably trivial (WUWT will have to continue the battle). HOWEVER, Trump will undoubtedly be changing the terms (and, hopefully, funding) of the argument.
Once questioning CAGW becomes “politically correct”, it will die of it’s own weight. It’s 15 minutes of fame are up.
Scott Adams’ recent skeptical blogging is perhaps another straw in the wind. Trump & Adams are speaking truth to glower.
(Attention NY Times & AP: other terms for people on our side that are more apt than doubter are: dissenter, disbeliever, contrarian, & critic. And lukewarmer (i.e., a disbeliever in the hypothesized positive feedbacks that are required to to put the C in CAGW. Most dissenters are lukewarmers. That would be the most informative term to use.)
If a half-dozen lukewarmers (or more) are appointed to influential positions by Trump, and if they in turn set up a series of debates on the topics involved in the CAGW hypothesis (including very technical debates to be voted upon by audiences of scientists with the relevant expertise), and if they give speeches in important venues, the MSM will start reporting things more even-handedly.
I believe that the main reason for their one-sidedness is that whenever they step out of line, warmist readers threaten to cancel their subs or donations (as happened after PBS aired a friendly interview of A.Watts a few years ago), and warmist letter-writers cite the endorsements of CAGW by 97% of the world’s scientific societies, or send in very technical letters to which the media’s staff have no ready answers. So there’s been great pressure on them to behave as they’ve been doing. Once lukewarmers have a bully (!) pulpit, and have demonstrated their ability to hold their own in debates, and (maybe) have a CO2-reduction plan involving mostly nuclear power and natural gas, much of the MSM ought to become become more nuanced. (Especially if a la Niña occurs.)
PS: Another part of lukewarmers’ strategy should be to hold many congressional hearings on the topic, which will make their position look more respectable, and put pressure on the MSM to avoid derogatory terms and strawman arguments. The Overton window will shift.
Rodger, do you think that the congressional hearings should include real skeptics as well as the luke-warmers?
@Markstoval: Including “slayers” (d—ers of any effect of CO2 on climate) in congressional hearings would be very unwise from a “persuasion”-focused point of view. It would be counter-productive. So, No.
Roger
Wrong.
Let’s see if I got this straight: the CAGW side will be represented by goofballs filled with intensity, and we’re expected to send in the ballroom dancing team?
You are assuming it’s possible to pick up the CAGW turd by the clean end.
We won’t be the ones picking the CAGW team; that’ll be done by the Dems.
The Weekly Standard ran an excellent article recently detailing the extent of the incestuous nature of the relationship between government agencies (almost across the board, and if you doubt that, recall the Navy’s efforts to utilize ridiculously-expensive biofuel) and liberal advocacy groups. The nub of it was that nearly every agency of the federal government awards grants to liberal advocacy groups and those groups return a portion of the awards to supportive legislators and campaigns in the form of campaign donations.
Meanwhile, a considerable portion of the remaining grant money is spent lobbying for liberal causes, global warming being chief among those causes. It’s reasonable to assume that these same groups take the lead whenever someone, as you said, “step(s) out of line.” In the article, the author noted that conservative groups generally rely upon private funding, which necessitated attacking their donor base directly in an effort to defund them. Think IRS harassment and DOJ penalty-levying.
The obvious conclusion is that, to bring this to a halt, or at least into some sort of balance, the funding source for liberal advocacy groups needs to be reduced to private funding. That is, cut off the government grants that are going to advocacy groups, entirely.
By the way, I’d bet that Trump’s team is well aware of the article and is preparing to take its message to heart. At least I hope so.
Rod Everson ==> The bias in science resulting form government funding is a big issue and has been discussed over at Judith Curry’s Climate Etc. more than once.
What applies to Academia applies to government agencies — the current staff have, in many cases, been hired (or retained and advanced) based on their acceptance of certain litmus-test social, scientific, and political views. My generation, and the one follow mine, University in the 70’s and early 80s, was thoroughly indoctrinated with scientifically insupportable environmental and social views — chemo-phobic, misanthropic, enforced freedoms, and mob-rule. We see the fallout in an overreaching EPA, legislated immorality, assasination-by-Twitter, etc.
I quite like “climate nonconformist”.
I thought it was amazing that the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel didn’t bury the story. Indeed:
They ran it as the lead on the front page!
http://oi67.tinypic.com/rkpl69.jpg
Link to image
Maybe the paper was trying to get warmists stirred up by the DNR’s out-of-line action, and also to sound the alarm about a worrisome trend that should be nipped in the bud. (?)
It is very bitter cold in Wisconsin and Minnesota this year with blizzards…so anyone who screams ‘global warming, I want it colder’ will be hit with many snow balls and run over by snowmobiles.
I think the use of the word “purge” makes their position clear.
Guys. We are in a war. Accept it.
joel December 30, 2016 at 5:23 am
I think the use of the word “purge” makes their position clear.
Guys. We are in a war. Accept it.
Yeah, I think you’re right.
Roger Knights ==> The original Milwaukee Journal Sentinel was expressing mild outrage that the page had been changed, and blamed the new(ish) Republican governor.
If I knew how to upload a picture, I’d post the one I took Jan 16, 2009 in SW Wisconsin about 8 am of the thermometer reading -41 degrees F (Celsius too, for that matter). And the way this year is going, I might get a chance to get another one. So far, about -20 F has been the low, but then it’s only December.
I will say though that until about eight years ago the winters here were getting progressively milder for over a decade, to the point where I recall thinking “If this keeps up people will start moving back into the state.” Then someone through a switch and every winter since has seen reasonably heavy snows here, after most of the snowmobilers had given up and traded their machines for 4-wheelers. Well, the snowmobiles are back.
Rod ==> If you have the image anywhere on the internet — say, in the cloud — with a url that returns the image, you can simply place the URL in a comment and the image will show in its place. Use the Test page here at WUWT (place the URL in a comment there) to see it work before posting to a thread.
If you do not have the image on the web, you could email it to me at my first name at the domain i4 decimal net (tell me here in comments if you do) and I will take care of it for you.
‘Guys. We are in a war. Accept it.’
I’ve been saying that all along. I also think beyond simply accepting it, we should start behaving like it.
Or maybe people at the newspaper are starting to get the idea that the science isn’t really settled after all.
Before Trump, all they heard was cheerleading for CAGW. Now, with Trump, they are starting to get another side of the story.
Hard to have ‘global warming is killing us’ headlines when people living in Wisconsin and Minnesota are freezing to death.
emsnews December 30, 2016 at 5:22 am
Hard to have ‘global warming is killing us’ headlines when people living in Wisconsin and Minnesota are freezing to death.
Winters in Wisconsin are a lot milder “Extreme Mildness?” (-: than they were a few decades ago. I remember winter days in the ’70s when it was ten below zero °F at noon. We’ve got a “Cold Snap” on the way next week. The Washington Post runs the headline “Rare coast-to-coast cold snap to engulf Lower 48 late next week” but when you look at their temperature map my neck of the woods won’t get below zero.
I’ll be 72 years old this February. This is some of sequence of events that has taken place over the years; atomic bomb, ice age, acid rain, I was doomed to fall out through the hole in the ozone layer, water shortage, global warming and now climate change. I can”t take any more
“Winters in Wisconsin are a lot milder “Extreme Mildness?””
Good thing you did not live back in 1874, might have been burnt to a crisp at 38F. Regardless of your current point of view, there is nothing abnormal in the last 140 years. 1930’s looked hot too.
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/msn/MSN-TS-DJF-T.gif
Nothing “Extreme” in Wisconsin either.
Hottest year = 1931
Coldest year = 1917
Wettest = 1881
Driest = 1895
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/msn/msn-annual.html
Steve, the 70’s were a cold period for everybody.
Orange groves in FL were being killed as far south as Orlando from the cold.
The 70’s were the end of a 30 year cooling period.
Here is the ‘Annual’ graph (vs. winter), 70, was cool. Of interest, Max temperatures have been steadily increasing (not accelerating), Mins have been decreasing, the Average is about flat. The only thing I can think of that would cause lows and highs to diverge like this would be Heat Island effects and less temperature moderation from forests (think farming).
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/msn/MSN-TS-ANN-T.gif
Neting out the above string: how much faster will grandma freeze at 0 degrees than at -7 degrees?
It is now becoming broadly, publicly acceptable to challenge climate model claims. All movements have an initiation, rise, acceleration, peak, and decline, following a student’s-T curve (normal distribution). It is inevitable and unstoppable. Public interest in any topic is not infinite. Think of climageddon as a fad. Most clothing fads last 2 years. This one has lasted quite a bit longer, but is still a fad. The decline is due to the behavior of populations, but is not helped by all the predictions failing to come true and the hysterical, death-and-doom rhetoric now being circulated. If you think of it, once you declare we are all soon to become extinct, there is nothing more you can say or do to ramp up the rage for a climate-based social agenda. They needed actual predictions to come true, not more screaming, as screaming is political and social, and not scientific. The rage defeats their position, as rage replaces scientific arguments gone bad. The rage rhetoric becomes the new normal, and then people become insensitized to it.
i think they still want a climate inquisition cuz they know fads can be thus maintained for a couple thousand years or more
Frankly, I think the population has hit a state of adrenal fatigue with regard to “outrage.” Most of us just want to get along living our lives and be LEFT ALONE–by the Government, by ideologues, by finger-wagging nanny-state trogs who keep whipping all this fear over, at the end of the day, NOTHING.
I thought so–the newspaper is what I have always called The Milwaukee Journal (Sentinel is a recent addition, I think). Also, I have a subscription to Wisconsin Natural Resources, a fascinating bimonthly magazine put out by the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources; I have read most of the articles with some thoroughness, always being attentive for references for CAGW; of late I have found few to no such references. (I was born in Wisconsin more than 74 years ago, my son was born there, and our family lived in Superior from 1972 to 1975. I always enjoyed the outdoors in that bracing climate and have been a subscriber to WisNat for many years.) I am thankful for the public change of stance.
Did you know they brought back the Green Sheet?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Sheet_(Milwaukee_Journal)
We all know how humans work.
If we all stay quiet, the press will slowly move over to the ‘New’ interpretation, which will be that Climate Change ‘certainly exists’, but that maybe it has been a bit ‘over-emphasised’, and no one is really to blame. Then, slowly, it will get forgotten (just like the Piltdown Man fiasco), and in two or three generations, when no one can lose face over it, some studies will be produced which say that the scientific authorities back in the 2000s were stupid, and aren’t we lucky that science corrected itself before any real harm was done.
If, however, we make a noise about it, the die-hards will cling to the belief that we are all about to die, and will undertake all kinds of extreme political activity intended to force their beliefs on the politicians. We see this happening with Brexit in the UK as the Remainers try to force a reappraisal of the Leave vote through the courts, and in the US where we had the unedifying spectacle of crowd-funded recounts, and the strange process of blaming the Russians (Commies?) for doing ‘something technical’ (we’re not sure what) to let the Republicans in….
What a world we live in!!
Excellent comment Dodgy,
Now I think about it when I voted to get the hell out of the EU by postal vote I now think that President Putin was controlling my actions and thought-projecting command phenomena……….
Yes, I’m convinced……Those damned commies….
Has anyone else suffered similarly?
Has anyone else suffered similarly?
I voted for Trump, and with apologies to Flip Wilson, “The Rooskies made me do it!”
Steve,
Yes, there is no evil they won’t stoop to…….
It was Yuri! Tiburian Sun lives!
DG, the MSM is like the proverbial leopard. It won’t be changing it’s spots anytime soon. Maybe toning down their rhetoric about the coming “anthropological induced global armagedon”. Till they get a handle on how hard Trump is going to hit the rentseekers and “witch doctors” that support it.
And the Russians?
They did no more than reveal what the Democrats and Clinton were up to. (If it was them) Something an unbiased media would have and should bave been all over. The media by now shouting ” the Russians are coming” and making a big deal about Russian hacking. (Asange says his information came from internal democrat leaks) Is doing little more than attempting to hide their own failings. A failing now being noticed by all!
The Rooskies are the “Squirrel!” yell of the moment to distract us from what we NEED to be worrying about–infiltration by radical Islam under the guise of “refugees.”
Yes, I think it’s amusing that the left’s defense amounts to “We would’ve won if the damn hackers and wikileaks had not revealed to the voters what cheating scumbags we are!”
Obama spent much of the last year lecturing the British how to vote on BREXIT, and openly campaigning for the opposition party in the recent Israeli election.
So he doesn’t have a lot of room to complain about Russian interference in our election. (If indeed such interference actually existed.)
The last time I checked, the Democratic National Committee was not an official U. S. Government body. Hacking them is no different than hacking the Boy Scouts of America, or the offices of the Red Cross. Yet, the reaction from the White House and the press is as if the NSA or FBI was successfully hacked, and State Secrets stolen.
Plus, as has been pointed out, the only thing revealed in the raid was the truth about the DNC’s effort to keep Bernie out and Hillary in, and various other nefarious dealings involving the Clinton Foundation. Hell, we already knew that the RNC was doing their best to keep Trump out — they admitted that in public. Even if the RNC had been successfully penetrated, I can’t imagine what horrible information about The Donald could have been released that hadn’t already been trumpeted from the highest peaks. (Pun intended.)
The CIA/Obama claim that the Russians influenced the US presidential election is ludicrous.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-announces-measures-to-punish-russia-for-2016-election-interference/2016/12/29/311db9d6-cdde-11e6-a87f-b917067331bb_story.html?utm_term=.83f2627f75eb
Come on boys. We weren’t convinced that Saddam was armed to the teeth with weapons of mass destruction – of which no trace was found after the invasion of Iraq. Pull the other one.
WMD were found in Iraq, as well as moth balled programs.
PS: A grand total of nobody claimed he was armed to the teeth with WMDs. We know for a fact that Saddam had chemical weapons, he used them on the Iranians and his own people.
With regards to nuclear, nobody ever claimed he had weapons, just weapons programs.
MARKW says: “WMD were found in Iraq.”
.
Please tell that to the president elect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVRgjboivUY
MarkW, your attempts to revise history is dependent on no one here being old enough to remember Rice’s warnings about “mushroom clouds over American cities”, or Blair claiming Iraqi nuclear warheads could reach the UK in 45 minutes.
No one cared about the chemical weapons he had used against Iran more than a decade previously. Not did they care about small time chemical weapon caches without delivery system. The war against Iraq was sold on the basis of Hussein’s Iraq being an existential threat to the USA and other Western countries.
It will be ridiculously easy to debate the warmists in the future: demand they wear swim suits and we get to wear parkas and do the debates outside, in winter, where it matters: in either Wisconsin or western NY by the Great Lakes. I guarantee no one on the warm side will show up.
D.G. – correct and very insightful.
This slow-letting-go happened with Eugenics. Everyone was on-board, even the big universities and corporate think-tanks, until it was (rightly so) determined to be racist. (I use that term carefully, because it is so over-used today).
This slow-letting-go happened with the global cooling scare in the 1970’s … that one is still being walked-back.
It has also been said that science progresses one death at a time.
Only when all the current fanatical alarmists have gone on to their final reward will there be moderation or reversal of the CAGW meme.
Forget Trump.
The real change was the fact that the pollsters got Brexit and the US election very wrong.
The reason no public figure was willing to let the obvious questions about the thermo-apocalypse be aired was that they thought it was public suicide to do so. You would be seen as a loony fringe by almost everybody.
And it has been for many celebrities. In the UK even Zoe Ball’s dad can’t get on the BBC.
But now that the public can’t be predicted a whole new range of questions can be asked.
Look at the Scott Adams page. It matters not if he’s a sceptic or a true-believer. He’s willing to openly ask the questions.
And asking questions leaves the emperor very exposed in those new clothes of his.
“The reason no public figure was willing to let the obvious questions about the thermo-apocalypse be aired was that they thought it was public suicide to do so.”
That’s a good point. Why didn’t the Democrats push this, to them, so very important issue during the elections, especially since they were going up against a skeptic of CAGW? The Democrats barely even brought the subject up.
except for Bernie, but then he is a socialist and a hit with the snowflakes … and the DNC took care of him
TA
Damn Russians did it to the Dems…
If the Ruskies could prevent Hillary from campaigning in Wisconsin, they could CERTAINLY stop a discussion of CAGW. How hard can this be?
“Damn Russians did it to the Dems…
If the Ruskies could prevent Hillary from campaigning in Wisconsin, they could CERTAINLY stop a discussion of CAGW. How hard can this be?”
I hadn’t thought about it that way, Javert. The Ruskies are tricky. Making Hillary bark like a dog was probably one of their hacks, too.
Well, Adams has said something to the effect of, “I have to protect my brand, so I can’t openly criticize CAGW”. That’s pretty dismal and says a lot about the whole absurd situation.
PiperPaul
Spoken like a man (you) that does not have a brand worth millions to lose.
Playing with other people’s money is always easy.
The trap that many people fall into is that they believe a person is a 100% adherent of the accepted science of climate change, or you are a 100% opponent. It’s really not like that. The vast majority of people are somewhere along a line from complete opponent to complete agreement.
Personally I tend to think the vast majority of climate scientists are probably correct in that humans play a part in climate change. But that does not mean I am not still sceptical about some aspects of the science and claims. I would bet that even the most hard nosed sceptic would still believe that some of the science based on observation is probably correct, while having substantial reservation about much of the conclusions.
Black and white thinking is what bedevils climate science. As regular posters will know, I am a believer in mainstream climate science and a bit of an old lefty. But I like partaking on this site because it challenges my beliefs, makes me think, and sometimes alters how I feel about an issue. If you only debate in an echo chamber you never learn. if you buck the trend you have to put up with moronic insults from those who have nothing constructive to say, but in amongst the trash there are jewels of wisdom.
“Personally I tend to think the vast majority of climate scientists are probably correct in that humans play a part in climate change.”
It is true that human activity has impacted the climate. Look at land use in the western US for example. Or look at large cities and their impact. But many propagandists claim that “mankind plays a role in climate change” to get the low information person believing they mean by driving their SUV. Most dishonest.
I suppose the question is, where do we draw the line between local and global impact?
Bruce Cobb
“Garreth, your opinion isn’t based on evidence, as there isn’t any.”
Isn’t any evidence of what Bruce? Climate change?
ps. Only one ‘r’ in Gareth. Pesky Celtic names!
“I suppose the question is, where do we draw the line between local and global impact?”
The role of CO2 is so tiny that it makes your question meaningless other than for a good troll.
“Climate Sensitivity” to CO2 is very near zero and possibly negative. One data point is that CO2 has been at least triple what it is now without any “global warming”. ( or would you argue that only man-made CO2 counts?)
“I am a believer in mainstream climate science…”. That makes one of you. Meanwhile, skeptics/climate realists are believers in facts and actual evidence – you know, the stuff of actual science.
“Meanwhile, skeptics/climate realists are believers in facts and actual evidence – you know, the stuff of actual science.”
Possibly you could add ” In my opinion”
There is a lot more subjectivity in the interpretation of evidence and confirmation of bias than people really understand. Mine is a subjective opinion drawn from the evidence I think is likely correct. It fits in with my view of good research and reality. But it is still my opinion, just as your is your reflection of your world view.
Garreth, your opinion isn’t based on evidence, as there isn’t any. That is the problem. All you really have is a weak correlation, amped up by your own feelings. You merely wish for it to be so.
‘I would bet that even the most hard nosed sceptic would still believe that some of the science based on observation is probably correct, while having substantial reservation about much of the conclusions.’
I quite agree! We believe that the observation-based science shows a LOW CS; We believe that observation-based studies demonstrate that Negative feedbacks predominate, if only slightly; We believe that observation-based studies conclude that hurricanes are NOT getting more severe or more numerous. And so on, and so forth.
And yes, we agree with Your assessment that the claims of disaster based upon AGW are pretty much garbage. Especially with the observation-based evidence that the world has been Much warmer, Very recently- the MWP, RWP, Minoan, HCO….
I totally agree ClimateOtter.
Catastrophisation is the bane of good climate science. Every time someone make a prediction that so and so is happening, and it fails to materialise, mainstream climate science loses a few more supporters.
What I find interesting though is the extent of which exaggeration, where there is little proof, seems to have become mainstreamed. In the last US election there were claims of millions of votes being cast by unregistered voters, Islamists were the number one threat to US citizens, that inoculations cause Autism, none of which has any basis in good evidence. But they do the rounds on a daily basis and far too many people accept the stories without actually checking. I think Willis has written an interesting article on his site regarding false news and exaggeration undermining good process in all fields of human endeavour.
Gareth Phillips
Gareth P, how is it possible for you to even entertain such a thought ….. when in actuality, …. you really don’t have a clue as to how many, the number of, climate scientists there are around the world, ….. and worse yet, …… you are completely in “the dark” as to exactly what those climate scientists actually believe.
As I mentioned, in amongst the insults are gems, sadly not in this post.
While not defending Gareth, I have to note that mankind (modern civilization) can
be playing “a part” in climate change, be it at 95% or just 5%.
Since the advent of crop irrigation and early aqueducts several thousand years ago,
man has been altering the environment. Those efforts tended to be localized in
their impact.
Now comes the “Urban Island” effect on temperature measurements and regional
rain runoff. Until a few years ago our collective “climate scientists” wouldn’t even
acknowledge the Urban Island effect until they had to hide it inside “homogenization”
of cells in their models. (h/t to SteveMc, Anthony, JudithC, etc.)
Current climate science can’t and doesn’t want to put a number (X%) on humanity’s
impact on weather and the climate. They can’t and won’t allow factors like solar
input across all bands into their formulae despite the shifts in sol’s output::
http://www.spaceweather.com/images2016/30dec16/hmi200.gif and
http://www.spaceweather.com/images2016/28dec16/ch_strip1.png
Personally I’d go with man’s “part” at 5%.
I’m not sure “many people” fall into that trap, but it is true that many debates are pushed into that trap by fanatical adherents of both sides.
Immigration is a great example. I don’t know anybody who thinks totally open-door, unlimited immigration is what we should have, and I don’t know anybody who thinks no immigration at all is the answer. In other words, we all think “some” immigration is good. So we are actually arguing about what “some” means, but you wouldn’t know that from all the name-calling.
I do believe that much more of the problem comes from the Progressive/Left side of thee debates however. On so many issues, from climate change, to immigration, worker’s rights, welfare and so on, the Progressive Left takes out a black and white, rigid position that too often prevents sensible discussion.
Good point Tim, the left tend to hold a take or leave it stance, and the right tend to over egg the problems . I tend to think a review of both arguments is useful, then make your mind up based on what evidence you think has validity. The problem is when you have two sides who both lie to the voter. The results then tend to be as valid as flipping a coin.
“But I like partaking on this site because it challenges my beliefs, makes me think, and sometimes alters how I feel about an issue.”
I feel the same way about this website, Gareth, and I like your open-minded attitude. We all need to be open to new information, and go where the facts take us.
Thanks TA, and here’s a to a happy and informative New Year with lots of good natured debates
TA
Exactly how is Gareth demonstrating “open minded-ness” with a passive-egressive statement like “Personally I tend to think the vast majority of climate scientists are probably correct in that humans play a part in climate change”?
What exactly has the guy committed to? Forever being undecided?
Javert Chip December 30, 2016 at 5:06 pm wrote: “TA
Exactly how is Gareth demonstrating “open minded-ness” with a passive-egressive statement like “Personally I tend to think the vast majority of climate scientists are probably correct in that humans play a part in climate change”?”
Well, he did say “probably”, not “absolutely.” 🙂
I just thought Gareth’s attitude was a welcome change from some on the other side, who are convinced they know everything there is to know about humans, CO2 and the Earth’s climate. Gareth expressed doubts and a desire to understand the true situation, it seemed to me. I think that’s a good thing, and the right direction for all of us, and should be encouraged.
We can disagree without being disagreeable. At least, I hope so, and will do my part.
I appreciate your comment, “Black and white thinking is what bedevils climate science.” Richard Lindzen is considered a ‘denier’ yet in his own words there are many things he has no objections with in the mainstream view as he explains in a 5 minute video. It’s seems like most of the coverage we hear is between the ~10% on either end of the spectrum which is mostly political. Anyway I’ll let him tell it in his words: https://www.prageru.com/courses/environmental-science/climate-change-what-do-scientists-say
I believe that 97% of climate “scientists” are democrats/socialists and therefore corrupt liars. I don’t believe a single word they say just as I don’t believe a single word that O’Bama or Clinton says.
Gareth
You say: “…Personally I tend to think the vast majority of climate scientists are probably correct in that humans play a part in climate change….”. Could you put anymore non-quantitive, passive, subjective qualifiers (tend to think, vast majority, probably correct, play a part) in a single 23-word statement?
Wow! Nothing says standing up for, well, nothing, better than saying nothing. Dude – you achieved nirvana on that one.
Assuming you are married, how did you respond when the minister asked you to say “I do” – “Ok; I’ll give it a shot. I mean I’ll try real hard, unless she gets sick or something much better comes along.”?
There is nothing wrong with expressing some uncertainly on an issue as complex and untested as climate science.
If Gareth wants to keep his position on the debate fluid as he continues to explore more information, then kudos to him: he is approaching the issue from a scientific standpoint and not a political one.
There is no deadline for Gareth, and I’d rather see him take the time to make a well-informed decision than rush him in to a ‘with us or against us’ position. Recall that there is a lot of information to sift through on both sides of the issue, and figuring out what is factual science and what is political deceit takes time.
Dearest Gareth,
Please take a quantity of air, measure its temperature and CO2 concentration. Add CO2 to the previously measured volume, record the new temperature, and get back to us with the results.
Babsy
You’re confusing molecules with photons Babsy.
I’m not confusing anything. We’re told adding CO2 to the air will make it hotter. Prove it.
Babsy
“Please take a quantity of air, measure its temperature and CO2 concentration. Add CO2 to the previously measured volume, record the new temperature, and get back to us with the results.”
If that’s what you think anyone is saying you are mistaken. There is radiative forcing which you can google.
What we’re told is that man, by using petroluem products which creates CO2 and that is expelled into the atmosphere, will cause the temperature of the atmosphere to increase. This increase in temperature will cause the glaciers to melt, the seas to rise, and lead to the end of the world. Dire straits except no one can demonstrate the mechanism by which this catastrophe actually happens.
Well said Gareth Phillips! If the Democrats had simply stuck to the science and data and not twisted and exaggerated the dangers for profit, I would probably still be a Democrat.
Good on you Andy.
The old hands here and A.W. personally know I am not shy about expressing myself about perceived climate alarmist exaggerators. I have frequently been slapped down. Snip, snip and snip again. Like you, assuming he’s not a very clever troll, I have no problem with his stance. If his words here are sincere he is an example of the exact kind of person we need to convert to skepticism. After all, A.W. was once a believer.
I would like to think comments on this topic
come to pass in spades but going on our locsl
media here in Australia I think a change of mood is going to be a long time coming
In particular as there is no shortage of weather anywhere the press here allow ingnoramouses
to write about any change in the weather as
being evidence of climate change
What a flooded garage in Melbourne (What no drains in the sublevel-garage? Stupid drivers trying to drive on flooded roads (Hilarious watching people trying to drive through at least 800mm deep water) and a fire, exacerbated buy…you guessed it…extreme heat!). The Aussie MSM is a laugh in the extreme…
Good Lord, we are being reduced to Kremlinology.
To correct the above : this election there were 4 political parties in America’s election system.
In the past there have been periods of three party politics (Civil War, Wilson’s first win, Dixiecrats
after WWII)
Arthur4563
What’s your point?
This website (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781450.html) documents 27 of 38 presidential elections from 1868 (after Civil War) had 3rd (and often 4h and more) party participation.
Ten of the 2-party elections have been in the last 18 presidential elections (post WW2).
Incorrectly, the website DOES NOT show the Libertarian and Socialist parties in the 2016 election – 2016 is counted as a 2-party election. I HAVE NOT ADJUSTED THE NUMBERS TO CORRECT FOR 2016.
M Courtney mentions polls getting Brexit and Trump wrong. Wikileaks 100 most damaging leaks number 24 is about Democrats trying to fix the polls in order to convince Trump voters they were so far behind they were wasting their time.
http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/
I have no idea if anything similar happened in the UK pre-Brexit. Many people surmised that people on the right were embarrassed to admit they were on the right and that was why the polls got the last UK election (where the Conservatives won a large majority contrary to poll predictions) and Brexit so wrong.
I know Mr Hansen prefers not to have tit for tat right or left comments here. This is about whether polls were wrong because the right was embarrassed to admit it, or because polls were being fixed.
It is relevant to the comment that now it is politically more acceptable to question climate change, and that therefore we may see a change in how contrary views are reported. If the “embarrassment” argument was the correct answer, then we may see polls on many issues reflect better on right or left views. Again, right or left is relevant to climate change because polls (again) show Republicans and Conservatives more likely to question cagw than Democrats or Labour supporters.
back in 1953 or so, experiments were done on ‘conformity’.
it was found that only about 10% of individuals would openly buck a concensus.
it was found that most people would go along with obviously wrong ideas rather than risk some anticipated opprobrium.
it was found, however, that if a single person bucked the group, the test subject was much much more inclined to state his own contrary perception.
1 confederate mattered (lookin at wuwt, here)
it was also found that an individual by himself gave his honest answer – no group around to influence him.
i think polls are essentially an expression of a ‘public position’ and subject to the influence of others.
but in the voting booth- you’re all alone.
Except that when the polling center calls, people are alone in their home. How is that subject to group influence? I think bias is often present in the wording of the questions.
SR
“Except that when the polling center calls, people are alone in their home. How is that subject to group influence?***”
Out where I live if you said you favored Trump people called you a racist and branded you as uneducated and/or ignorant. You had to be careful what you said to strangers. In some cases you even had to be careful when discussing Trump with close relatives. The Progressive are generally pretty intolerant people. They are the modern Puritans.
Several times I had pollsters call me at home and there were always clues as to how they wanted me to answer. Sometimes it was the biased phrasing of the question. Sometimes it was that subtle judgemental pause in the pollster’s voice when I said I favored Trump or that I was a conservative. Most blatently it was having a pollster with a foreign accent or an African American accent asking questions about topics like immigration. I felt uncomfortable responding. After responding to a few early polls I stopped responding to pollsters who called my house.
I wonder also if there is polling skewing due to who might be more, or less, excited about answering questions and giving their opinion to a polling agency. In other words, folks who have been PC’d to death on their particular views may be less inclined to be open. And what about people who scale more towards narcissistic, would they be more inclined to sit through a bunch of questions on what their opinion is? And does any of this bear in any way on political preference?
Keith ==> “It is relevant to the comment that now it is politically more acceptable to question climate change, and that therefore we may see a change in how contrary views are reported.”
Absolutely correct. This is my view as well — with the election of a President ambivalent to climate change dogma, making appointments of cabinet members and agency heads that not only have not passed the pro-AGW-litmus test but quite the opposite, it becomes easier and safer (politically, socially, professionally) to state one’s true opinions — and, as in the case of the Wisconsin DNR, make a public statement that is more scientifically correct.
i think that the right or left paradigm is shifting. people are sick of different individuals interpretations of what right and left are. i see a move toward right and wrong coming .
What has been forgotten, or shunted aside, is the huge impact a belief in AGW has already had on our world.
We are driving smaller cars, and it had nothing to do with our wants, needs, nor the manufacturers desires. Our appliances are less efficient than they used to be (imagine that). International building codes mandate an R value and a tightness so severe that we are building “sick” homes.
We’ve intentionally abandoned centuriesworth of inexpensive energy, costing lives and untold billions (milliards for you Brits) of the average western peoples. We’ve abandoned the jobs and riches that manufacturing brings.
ALL because of the belief that the CO2 molecule will destroy our planet.
Imagine if the population at large suddenly discovered that all was for nought, and that we had sacrificed the comfort, convenience and freedoms that science could truly bring us because of shoddy, and perhaps intentionally misleading “science”.
(milliards for you Brits)
Huh? I’m a Brit and I had to ask my French neighbour what he meant by a “milliard”.
It’s a short billion, or a thousand millions, traditionally called a milliard. UK practice has been to use the long billion – a million millions – but US practice has mostly won the day on that one. We haven’t officially used long billions since the late 70s.
Archer~ you mean ‘Billions and Billions’? 😉
the huge impact a belief in AGW has already had on our world.
I’ll believe that the Great Delusion is over when I can once again buy 100W tungsten light bulbs.
I recall them being available as 150W….Not THERE’S a real bulb…
Forget 100W, I’ll just be happy when I can have soft-tone coloured bulbs again. Ambience! Relaxation!
I’m now imagining a Monty Python sketch:
“Who’d a thought thirty years ago we’d all be sittin’ here drinking hot tea out of an electric kettle?”
“Aye, in them days we’d a’ been glad to have the price of a kW hour of wind turbine output.”
“A SPINNING wind turbine.”
“Without subsidies”
etc /// author talent limit reached/exceeded.
Dermot O’Logical ==> I recently bought colored “Party Light Bulbs” — 25 watt bulbs in green, yellow, green, and blue. Very nice — they are allowed because of the low wattage and being “specialty bulbs” escape regulation.
On the other hand, you can buy almost anything on the Internet…regardless of regulations. Buy your bulbs and enjoy.
On our boat, we make out own electricity — wind, solar, and diesel generation and use it as we wish.
I don’t know, I kinda like the new soft white (2700K) LED bulbs. The power savings is enormous (9W vs 60W) and they look exactly the same. The cost has come way down, too, though they still are more expensive than incandescents.
I have two large rooms with recessed lighting, and there are eight on one room and ten the other, so my power use has gone from 18 X 60W = 1080W to 18 X 9 = 162W. I do notice the rooms are colder in winter, though, as we’ve lost the extra warming power from the filaments.
James ==> On our boat, I have replaced all the lighting with LED bulbs and fixtures — electricity is at a premium when one is using wind and solar stored in lead acid batteries. For background lighting, we use warm white closely-spaced “Christmas Tree” LED lights strung around the perimeter of the main cabin reflecting off of the white overhead (these are 120 VAC, inverter powered) . This provides even lighting and a festive touch. Gooseneck reading lights (also LED) provide the additional light for books and charts.
Marky. I agree with you: not all agw effects are bad. I am only upset by the amount of money that have been wrongly spent on wrong project. Coal burning is an exemple. I can live with co2 coming from coal, and up to concentration like those encounter in Apollo 13 LEM. But others products coming from coal are bad, and are facts. Trump should divert a lot of money from agw fighting budget to coal subproducts recovery.
I don’t accept that present warming is anything other than natural variability but the IPCC says that up to 1.8C of warming globally is generally beneficial. I don’t get what all these Warmists are worked up about. Perhaps 1.9C is catastrophic but that seems unlikely. I live in Canada, one of the coldest countries on the planet. What the Hell the idiots who run my country think they are fighting is beyond me! Too stupid for words! We are deficit spending to boost the economy and then they are turning around and applying a carbon tax. You can’t make up stuff this dumb unless you’re in government.
don’t be so sure of the manufacturers wants. all that extra virtue signalling emissions control crap on modern cars is added value to them. who lobbied for it in the first place ? , partly as a barrier to new competitors entering the market .
in the case of diesels it actually reduces fuel efficiency,which is stupidity in itself. cleaner more efficient engines are a no brainer, what we ended up with was something heading toward such complexity it borders on madness.
On the ABC news in Australia tonight they repeated the tedious “blah blah blah was caused by climate change” line. A serious lack of journalistic rigour.
George McFly ==> with the government controlled media, under the British system (BBC, CBC, ABC), outside the US, the change will be slower as the rank-and-file journalists and administrators, program managers, and all have been selected/appointed based on their conformance with the obligatory politically correct belief system. The problem here is that they actually believe that they are right about CAGW. They have been mis-educated/indoctrinated in the Universities and their belief system buoyed by professional rewards for “right thinking”. The same is true in the US with NPR/PBS. They will be slow to change, they will fight back with even more strident attacks….they will eventually be overcome by the facts and back down slowly.
Kip, very interesting article and very good research. Good on ya, mate. I’m American; I guess I’ve been reading to much JoNova and stopthesethings.
Stan ==> Thank you. I usually do much more in depth pieces, this was a “quicky” to re-emphasize the original study, prompted by Jane Brody’s NY Times reminder about cold being more dangerous than heat.
The test will come when what happens next in the ENSO cycle.
Presently, we have not seen the present ENSO cycle complete with a La Nina. Since ENSO is unpredictable, we do not know what will come next, but IF there is a La Nina in 2017 going through into 2018, it is likely that satellite data will cool (this data set is less sensitive to La Ninas than it is to El Ninos, possible because of warm air convection) and the pause will reappear, but it will then be over 20 years in duration. IF this happens, model discrepancy between satellite observations will be even greater. The question will be is will this issue be addressed by the IPCC and how?
People seem to forget that if Trump is to bring back employment to the so called rust states, then he has to pull back/ignore AGW commitments. He has no choice in this, if he is to create jobs in coal and energy intensive industries and thereby keep his commitment to the voters in the rust states.
I do not think it at all likely that he will ignore the voters in the rust states, and I therefore expect his administration to be extremely sceptical of AGW, and to do as much as possible to undermine the credibility of the so called ‘science’ behind AGW..
I expect Trump to become emboldened should a strong La Nina develop.
PS. I am not saying that a strong La Nina will develop, but merely speculating on what will happen should it develop in 2017. A cold US winter this year (whilst only weather) will not do him any harm either.
Are Public Positions on Climate Change Changing?
Yes. The end of the Great Delusion is at hand.
Yes. “The end of the Great Delusion” = Political climate change !
Most of the public cared not one whit about climate change. They may say they care, but their actions clearly show they do not.
The ones that care are the vocal minority. These are part of the social justice warriors now. These are the people who make you conform to their viewpoint, or ELSE! Since they took useless majors in college, they cannot find meaningful work so they are looking for some cause to rally behind to make their life meaningful. Thus they have a lot of free time of their hands. They are the modern useful idiots. They are the ones who care about climate change. And they are still the minority.
The other ones who care are the ones who learned how to make a lot of easy money off CAGW theory. They, too, are in the vocal minority. They are vocal because they are afraid they might actually have to work for a living. A cornered animal can either fight or take flight. Some will take flight into other jobs, these are the ones who actually have some skill to offer society. Many will fight as long as they can because you cannot live in a mansion as a burger flipper at McDonald’s, which is the only other skill they have.
This is the beauty of being “politically correct” – you can stake out a very strong position without actually believing a word of it.
It used to be called “lying” or “being stupid”.
“Hope springs eternal.”
Mr. Hansen, I hope you’re right but I’ll reserve judgment until NPR and PBS cease their daily bombardment of their respective audiences.
oh noes! then it will be nothing but gay agenda!
John ==> See my comment on NPR/PBS above here.
I can reasonably foresee public hysteria about CAGW dying down, for a number of reasons, but mainly because none of the predicted CAGW disasters have occurred. You can only keep hysteria going for so long without an external impetus before it dies a natural death.
However, I feel that this might be the right time to introduce to the general public an opposite point of view – that far from having an excess of CO2 in our atmosphere, we actually live in a CO2-impoverished atmosphere. If another little ice age were to occur, we could easily see CO2 levels drop to around 300 ppm (they were 280 ppm during the previous LIA). Crop yields at this level would be so low that we would have difficulty feeding all 7 billion of us (or possibly 9 or 10 billion if the UN population predictions come about).
Far from reducing CO2 output, I suggest we should be encouraging it. Will rising CO2 levels cause global temperature increases? Possibly, but only to a mild extent, and probably well within the natural variation we have seen in past climate optimums.
We already have an organization called 350.org dedicated to reducing CO2 levels. I suggest we set up a new organization called 1000.org, dedicated to increasing CO2 levels.
here you go, spread it widely –
http://co2coalition.org/
We need more than .04
Bravo Wisconsin! Hopefully the truth can find its way into neighbouring jurisdictions.
Here in Ontario it’s not just the ruling party (who initiated the Green Energy Act), along with the two other political parties and the majority of the educated class they all believe we need to “decarbonize” the economy…etc.,etc.
On this side of the Great Lakes the alarmist narrative has very strong legs, if you are not on board the good ship AGW you are politically irrelevant.
you guys better get some pipelines moving some product before cdn (once at parity with usd) gets to half a usd.
bankruptcy is unsustainable – tell that substitute teacher with the hair do.
He is a millionaire. He is unfamiliar with economic imperatives. Especially those of others.
He did manage to say & then eat some interesting words about Fidel Castro. Understand the taxpayer-paid trip to Havana “conflicted with his schedule”.
Bummer.
phil brisley ==> This is exactly the situation that I think/hope is going to undergo a change now that the US President(elect) is definitely NOT a rabid pro-CAGW fanatic.
The reasoning is: If a guy can be elected President of the US without being required to repeat IPCC CAGW talking points by rote, then maybe I can express my opinions without fear of losing my job, maybe my state DNR can issue a scientifically correct (as opposed to politically correct) statement about climate change, maybe I can do my research and report my actual findings without a de rigueur AGW plank.
Kip Hanson, thanks for the response and keep up the good fight.
Far too often I read in the MSM ridiculous claims concerning AGW. They say the climate is changing and we are the cause. They insist we must stop adding the heat trapping gases that are dangerously warming the planet. And we the people believe this junk…this Monday Ontario is implementing a carbon tax on gasoline and heating fuel. Happy New Year!
Carbon dioxide does not trap heat, it actually convects it (think hot air rises). Also, carbon dioxide does not trap radiation, it absorbs and re-radiates it at a wavelength corresponding with temperatures found at the Top of the Atmosphere (TOA) which is around minus 50 degrees C. The law of conservation is radiation in from the sun equals radiation out at TOA and the evidence there’s an imbalance as a result of the enhanced greenhouse effect is nothing more than inconclusive guesswork.
The radiative transfer equation provides a degree (pun not intended) of mathematical certainty, but so far, the atmosphere – a turbulent, coupled, non-linear chaotic system – has shown itself impossible to numerically model.
Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming is an unproven theory that has little basis in science and people who don’t ask themselves the simple questions are deluding themselves.
Kip Hansen….apologies for the typo.
Hopefully these are the first signs of cracks in the facade, with many more to come. Lots of good reasons listed here for this new language; funding concerns, dooms days that never materialize, interest T-curves, etc. After following the debate for many years, and eventually aligning with the skeptics, I find this a moment of cautious celebration.
Imagine how different the picture would be today without the new media, and sites like WattsUpWithThat, IceCap, IceAgeNow, etc. They’ve started a snowball (ha) that is gaining speed. No wonder the Warmists are out to crush Free Speech.
Free Speech – cherish it, defend it!