The IPCC is Wrong

As a factor in Global Warming, increases in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 have been, and will continue to be, largely irrelevant.

Guest essay submitted by William Van Brunt


Copyright © William Van Brunt, 2016. All rights reserved.

Summary

The following are the basic principles and assumptions underlying the calculations set out in this paper:

1. The heating provided by CO2 is radiant heating and for purposes of this paper, when calculating the increase in heating that is a result of the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere the only source of any increase in heating in these calculations is CO2 and the Water Vapor Feedback Effect it creates.

2. In order to maintain a given temperature, the power of the radiant heating absorbed by the Earth’s surface must at least equal the power of the thermal radiation emitted by the surface.

3.The total heating power, ΔF,  required to drive a given increase in the temperature of the surface of Land can be determined as,

 ΔF =  [(TLo + ΔTL) / TLo)4 – 1] × RULo  / Eff

 Where:       TLo is the initial average temperature of Land                                                                               

                     ΔTL is the change in the average surface temperature of Land,

                     RULo is the initial Up Radiation at TLo

                   Eff is the percentage of an increase in Total Heating that heats the Earth’s Land     surface.

The increase in heating power, ΔRadCO2, caused solely by an increase in the concentration of CO2 from the initial concentration, C0 to C, in ppmv, is determined by this formula –

ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C / C0) (w/m2),

which means that there is but one result for ΔRadCO2 for a given change in concentration.

4. The increase in heating from the Water Vapor Feedback Effect provided by an increase in average temperature, ΔTCO2, resulting solely from the increase in heating from a buildup in CO2 is determined by this formula:

ΔWV = 1.6 ×ΔTCO2  (w/m2)

5. The Maximum increase in heating power received at the surface cannot exceed the sum of the results of the calculations set out in statements 4 & 5.

6. The Maximum average increase in Land temperature in degrees Fahrenheit, ΔTL resulting from of the calculations set out in statements 4 & 5 of ΔRadCO2 and ΔWV is determined by this formula as –

ΔTL = TLo × [(1 + Eff ×WV + ΔF) / NHLo)1/4– 1]

where:

NHLo is the initial Net Heating of the Land surface in watts per square meter.

7. One cannot determine the increase in Average Global Temperature based upon a change in heating because the surface temperature change response of Land and the Oceans to an increase in heating is significantly different. However, it is possible to determine the increase in Average Global Land Temperature based upon a change in heating and then estimate the change in Average Global Temperature.

8. The Maximum increase in average temperature cannot exceed the increase in temperature caused by the result of the calculations set out in statement 6.

The following are the results of the applications of these principles:

A. The change in the Average Global Temperature for Land between 1880 and 2002 was 2.6oF. To effect such an increase requires an increase of 13.8 w/m2 in total Average Heating Power. The Maximum total increase in total Average Heating Power that the buildup of COover this period could have effected is 1.6 w/mand the Maximum increase in the Average Global Temperature for Land that the buildup of CO2 over this period could drive cannot exceed 0.3 oF.

B. CO2 is not THE cause nor is it the primary cause of Global Warming

C. The Maximum increase in Average Global Temperature that a doubling of the concentration of CO2 from 400 to 800 ppmv can effect is 0.8oF. The IPCC’s predictions of 3.4oF to 7.9oF are 325% to 900% too high and this would require an increase in heating of 800% to 900% greater than that determined in accordance with the calculation set out in statement 3 above.

D. The IPCC is simply wrong.

Background

I have no direct, or indirect, links or ties to any business or investment that has any interest, whatsoever, in this matter. I have neither sought, been offered or received any funding, benefit or any form of consideration or promises to prepare this work – none. This has all been an independent pursuit of truth.

At the time, of the award of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize to former Vice President Albert Gore and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (the IPCC) which was accepted on behalf of the IPCC by Dr. Pachauri, then Chair of the IPCC, I was honored to accept an invitation from a colleague to attend a gathering to celebrate the granting of this award, in Oslo.

I should also note that my academic training is not in meteorology or climate studies but this is also true, not only for Al Gore, but Dr. Pachauri as well. And, unlike both, for several years I was part of a team of scientists designing vehicles for the vacuum of space and calculating the extreme rates of heating to which they are exposed as they slammed into the atmosphere of Earth or Venus. In the case of the probes into the planet Venus this work took into account radiative heating.

In terms of absorbing and emitting radiative heat, our planet is just another object in space, with sufficient mass to maintain an atmosphere that contains a small percentage of gases that both absorb and reradiate infrared (IR) radiation, the Greenhouse Gases (GHG).

With a basic grasp of physics, radiative heating and thermodynamic principles, a determination of the Maximum increase in the Average Global Temperature (the Upper Bound) that a buildup in the concentration of CO2 can effect is possible. Otherwise, the only option is to rely on the purported “experts” which I did for a couple of decades.

I sat there the night of this celebration listening to the speakers with the belief that Global Warming had occurred and hoping that at this celebration there would be an explanation as to why there was this exclusive focus on an atmospheric increase of ~ one part per million per year or one part per ten thousand over a century, of CO2, the effect of which is merely logarithmically proportional to increases in concentration over 290 ppmv, (at this level, a 10% increase in concentration results in a 1.7% increase in heating power[1]) and on a molecule-for-molecule is less effective as a Greenhouse Gas than the primary Greenhouse Gas, Water Vapor, which, on average, is present in the atmosphere at levels, and varies by factors, that are an order of magnitude greater than that of CO2 and, …..what this had to do with peace?

There was no presentation that demonstrated how an inconsequential change in such a minor component of the atmosphere could be responsible for Global Warming. Instead, what I heard were assumption based conclusions, summaries of the results of unexplained computer models, political speak and predictions of a parade of horribles, which may or may not be realistic, but could be the result of warming, irrespective of the cause.

That night, as the advocates for this belief played on our fears of Global Warming including a totally irrelevant and nonsensical analogy to horrible conditions on planet Venus, something I knew a little about, at the same time they appeared to be seeking to impute an unquestioning sense of guilt for all of Humankind stemming from having so benefitted from the massive consumption of fossil fuels along with a need to make amends by paying whatever it takes to stem the tide of Carbon buildup and minimize the effects of various potential doomsday scenarios, (reminded me of some preachers, “Atone for your sins or suffer hellfire and brimstone for eternity.”). For the first time, I began to wonder, based on the lack of scientific proof offered at a celebration of a Nobel Prize on the work of the role of CO2 in Global Warming, whether, and if so, why, the world was being taken in, misdirected into thinking that CO2 was THE or the primary cause of Global Warming.

Since then, my question – why the exclusive focus on such an inconsequential component of the atmosphere – went unanswered. Having read many justifications from those who make claims that Global Warming was/is caused solely by increases in the concentration of CO2. They basically boil down to:

1. Correlations of temperature increases with increases in the concentration of CO2;

2. Formulations/approximations that do not comply with the basic laws of physics, ignore the actual effects of heating and, at times, either alone or together with a theoretical, inflated and incorrect Water Vapor Feedback Effect formulation, substantially overstate the increases in temperature that the buildup in the concentration of CO2 can effect; and,

3. Determining that CO2 must be THE cause, because, if one does not include subsequent increases in the concentration of CO2 since the 1800s in the climate change computer models, these models do not show global warming, Lindzen (2007), but only do when subsequent increases in the concentration of CO2 are included (and then they overstate the increase in temperature, suggesting they are premised on the above formulations[2]) which, of course, assumes that these models are correct; they are not; See Gray (2012);

concluding, therefore, that Global Warming has been driven by the buildup of CO2 since the advent of industrialization.

These responses are all based upon the assumption that the buildup of CO2, alone was responsible for Global Warming.

When it comes to CO2, I wondered, rather than make assumptions, why not simply calculate the Maximum incremental heating that an increase in the concentration of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide can provide and the resulting MAXIMUM temperature increase? It is not difficult.

The average temperature of the surface cannot exceed the MAXIMUM average temperature that the Net Heating can effect. Therefore, if one knows the additional net-heating that a buildup in CO2 can cause, including the Water Vapor Feedback Effect, one can calculate the theoretical MAXIMUM increase in the Average Global Land temperature that the buildup in the concentration of CO2, alone, can effect.

While I could find many papers that calculated the increase in heating, radiative forcing, that increases in the concentration of CO2 could drive and then draw conclusions about the relationship to net surface temperatures based on the assumption that these temperature changes were caused by increases in the concentration of CO2, I could find very few analyses that went beyond the calculation of incremental heating.

There were only a few that purported to explain how to calculate the increase in the Average Global Temperature resulting from increases in the concentration of CO2. Of these there were only a few that calculated the historical increase and then only at the conclusion of the time period in question. (e.g. “Between 1880 and 2002 the temperature increase caused by the prior buildup of CO2 was equal to X.”) I found no studies for the changes in the temperature of Land caused by CO2, which for the reasons set out below, enables the most straightforward comparison.

My back of the envelope calculations for the heating power required from increases in the concentration of CO2 to effect the actual temperature increases over time called all of the IPCC’s conclusions about the role played by CO2 in Global Warming, into question. Therefore, I looked into this issue in greater detail, which resulted in this paper, in which, will calculate the MAXIMUM (not the precise) increase in average temperature that the buildup of CO2 can effect.

How to Calculate the Power and Maximum Temperature Increase Caused by an Increase in the Concentration of CO2

The Earth constantly emits thermal infrared radiation (IR) which I will term “Up Radiation”, RU.

The sole source of heating of the Earth’s surface is the net radiant heating absorbed from the Sun and the “Back Radiation” from GHG, the Net Heating.

If the average surface temperature is constant for a period of time, this means that the average power per square meter of the Net Heating, NH, is at least equal to the power per square meter of the average Up Radiation. Therefore,

Net Heating, NH = RU

Comparing Land to Ocean, the temperature of the surface of Land is far more responsive to the same changes in Net Heating. See Figure 1, below.clip_image004[4]

Figure 1. Average, Ocean and Land Temperature Anomalies (NOAA 2010)

Due to the percentage that goes into subsurface heating as a result of the thermal diffusivity of the Oceans, the surface temperature of the Oceans is not as responsive to the same radiant heating as Land.

Thus, changes in Average Global Land Temperature is a far better gauge of the changes in Net Heating than changes in the Average Global Ocean Surface Temperature or Average Global Temperatures (Land & Ocean, above), which includes the Oceans comprising 70.57% of the Earth’s surface. Therefore, I will use changes in Land temperature as a gauge.

The Up Radiation per square meter of the Land surface, RUL is equal to εσTL4 (Luciuk) where, ε is emissivity, a dimensionless constant between 0 and 1 that determines the efficiency of a body to radiate and absorb energy, which in this paper, for the surface of Land is assumed to be 1; σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant, 5.40×10-9 w/m2 T-4 and TL is the Global Average Land temperature in degrees Rankine.

RUL = εσTL4

At a constant average surface temperature, Net Heating, NHL = RUL, and, initially, NHLo = RULo

To maintain a given temperature, the Net Heating, NHL must equal the Up Radiation

NHL = RUL = εσTL4

Then, 

NHLN / NHLo = NHLN / RuLo = εσTLN4 / εσTLo4 = TLN4 / TLo4

 Since,

TLN  = TLo + ΔTL

And

NHLN = NHLo + ΔNHL

The increase in Net Heating power, ΔNHL, required to support this increase in temperature is,

ΔNHL = RULo × [(TLo + ΔTL) / TLo)4 – 1]

 Where ΔTL is the change in the average surface temperature of Land, and

                                RULo is the initial Up Radiation at TLo

The minimum change in Total Heating power, ΔF,  required to drive a given increase in the temperature of the surface of Land can be determined as, ΔNHL / Eff 

ΔF = ΔNHL / Eff = [(TLo + ΔTL) / TLo)4 – 1] × RULo / Eff

So for an increase of 2.6o from an initial temperature of 507.9oR and an initial Up Radiation of 360 w/m2, for this change in temperature, the minimum change in Total Heating, ΔF, required to effect this is,

 ΔF =  [(507.9 + 2.6) / 507.9)– 1] × 360  / 0.55 = 9.5 w/m2

If there is a change in Net Heating, ΔNH

 

This will result in a change in temperature, ΔT and the new temperature, TLN

TLN = TLo + ΔTL

The new Up Radiation, RULN, is equal to the initial Up Radiation, RULo plus the change in Up Radiation, ΔRuL.

RULN = RULo + ΔRuL

and, as noted above, where NHn is the New Net Heating,

RULN = NHn

NHis equal to the initial Net Heating, NHo, plus the change in Net Heating, ΔNHL. Therefore,

RULN = NHn = NHo +  ΔNHL = RULo + ΔRuL

Since, NHLo= RULo

 ΔNHL = ΔRuL

Further, given that

RULN = εσTLN4

Therefore, the ratio RULN / RULo

RULN / RULo = εσTLN4/ εσTLo4 = TLN4/TLo4

Since, RULN = RULo + ΔRuL

This ratio can then be written as,

(RULo + ΔRuL) / RULo = TLN4/TLo4

Given that ΔRuL = ΔNHL, then,

(RULo + ΔNHL) / RULo = TLN4/TLo4

And given that TLN = TLo + ΔTL, then,

(TLo + ΔT)4 /TLo4 = (RULo + ΔNHL) / RULo

Taking the fourth root of each side

(TLo + ΔTL)/TLo = [(RULo + ΔNHL) / RULo]1/4

Then solving for ΔTL

ΔTL = TLo × [(RULo + ΔNHL) / RULo]1/4– TLo

or,

ΔTL = TLo × [(RULo + ΔNHL) / RULo)1/4– 1]

The next step is to determine the increase in Net Heating as a result of an increase in the concentration of CO2.

The IR frequency band within which atmospheric CO2 can absorb IR radiation is nearly saturated, meaning that, today, the pre-existing concentration of CO2 effectively absorbs almost all of the Up IR Radiation that fall within this narrow band. In addition, this band overlaps with absorption band for Water Vapor. The consequence, there is very little IR radiation remaining that falls within this band that added CO2 can absorb. Therefore, the absorption within this band is not directly proportional to increases in the concentration of CO2.

The effect of this IR band saturation can be accurately modeled on the University of Chicago’s Modtran computer model, climatemodels.uchicago.edu/modtran/modtran.doc.html, for simulating the absorption and emission of infrared radiation in the atmosphere, including the effect of variations in the concentration of CO2.[3] This computer model was first developed for the U.S. Air Force and has been verified by satellite measurements. It is a very accurate way of determining the effects of band saturation on the ability of changes in the concentration of CO2 to change IR Back Radiation. However, this model is both change in concentration and geographically specific. In order to gauge the heating effect of changes in the concentration of CO2, each change in the concentration requires a separate computer run.

Instead, in this paper, the increase in heating from an increase in the concentration of CO2 in watts per square meter, ΔRadCO2, is calculated, in accordance with the IPCC’s formula as:

ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C / C0)

where, C is the CO2 concentration in parts per million by volume at the later date, ppmv and, C0 is the concentration at the date from which the change is being measured, in ppmv,

not because it is correct[4] (it overstates the heating power from the increase in concentration) but because it is the only consensus model I have found and will clearly result in the calculation of the MAXIMUM temperature increase a buildup of CO2 can cause.

Knowing that the increase in heating from the buildup of CO2,  alone, ΔNHLCO2 is equal to the percentage of ΔRadCO2 that goes into heating the Land, Eff, and substituting Eff × ΔRadCO2 for ΔNHLCO2, the change in temperature caused solely by an increase in heating from the buildup in the concentration of CO2, can be expressed as,

ΔTLCO2 = TLo × [(RULo + Eff × ΔRadCO2) / RULo)1/4– 1]

or,

ΔTLCO2 = TLo × [(1 + Eff × ΔRadCO2 / RULo)1/4– 1]

Set out in Table 1, below, are my estimates of the key components of the Earth’s energy budget in 1880 and 2002 for Land.

Table 1

Earth’s Average Global Land Heating Budget[5] for 1880 and 2002, (w/m2)

Land 1880 2002
Total Heating 471 485
Up Radiation Land, RUL or Net Heating Land, NHL 360 367
Solar Radiation 159 161
Back Radiation from GHG 312 324
Evaporative Power, Land 13 13
Thermal Convection Land 99 105

This heating budget for Land for 1880 and 2002 together with the Average Global Temperature for Land in these respective years sets a base from which one can calculate the MAXIMUM temperature changes increases in the concentration of CO2 can effect.

As both the Sun and the GHG heat the surface of the Earth they simultaneously drive evaporation, subsurface warming and convection. The power that goes into evaporation, subsurface warming and convection cannot go into heating of the surface. In this paper, Net Heating is defined as the percentage of Total Heating that does not go into the evaporation, sub surface warming and convection. The Effective heating percentage (“Eff”) is defined as the percentage of Total Heating that heats the Earth’s Land surface. Referring to Table 1, for Land, about 53% of the Total Heating of the Earth results in the Net Heating of the surface.

To be conservative, Eff is set at 55%. Therefore, to determine the Net Heating Power,

Net Heating Power = Eff × Total Heating = 0.55 × Total Heating

This increase in heating and temperature will gives rise to an increase in evaporation, which will in turn increase the GHG and give rise to an additional increase in temperature, determined as follows:

The increase in Average Global Temperature can be determined from the increase in Land Temperature. It is approximately equal to the increase in Average Global Land Temperature multiplied by the ratio of the increase in Average Global Temperature between 1880 and 2002,1.4oF to the increase in Average Global Land Temperature over this period 2.6oF = 1.4oF / 2.6 = 0.56

The Maximum measured and estimated long term Water Vapor Feedback is 1.6 w/m2 per degree Fahrenheit change in Average Global Temperature Dessler (2014).[6]

Thus, the heating caused by the Water Vapor Feedback Effect, ΔWVCO2, as a result of an increase in Average Global Land Temperature, ΔTLCO2, in degrees Fahrenheit, can be expressed as:

ΔWVCO2 = 0.56 × 1.6 × ΔTLCO2

Taking into account the Water Vapor Feedback Effect, WVCO2, the MAXIMUM increase in net heating of the Land, ΔNHL, that can be caused by an increase in the concentration of CO2 from a given date can be determined as follows:

The Net Heating Increase, ΔNHL = Eff × (ΔRadCO2 + ΔWVCO2)

Thus, this is how the MAXIMUM Average[7] Global Land temperature increase can be calculated for a buildup of CO2.

ΔTL = TLo × [(1 + Eff × (ΔWVCO2 + ΔRadCO2) / RULo)1/4– 1]

So, for 1880, which is a starting point commonly used,

C0 is 291 ppmv,

ToL for Land is 507.9oR

Ruo is 360 w/m2

Eff is = 0.55

ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C / C0)

In 2002, C is 373 ppmv,

∴ ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C / C0) = 5.35 × ln (373/ 291) = 1.33 w/m2

Then the increase in temperature from the increase in CO2, alone.

ΔTLCO2 = TLo × [(1 + Eff × ΔRadCO2 / RULo)1/4– 1]

ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × [(1 + .55 × 1.3 / 360)1/4– 1] = 0.14oF

The Water Vapor Feedback Effect is:

ΔWVCO2= 0.56 × 1.6 × Δ TLCO = 0.56 × 1.6 ×0.36 = 0.22 w/m2

The increase in total heating from this increase in the concentration of CO2, ΔRadCO2 + ΔWVCO2 = 1.33 w/m2 + 0.22 w/m= 1.6  w/m is consistent with the IPCC estimates of total increase in heating from all man made sources between 1750 and 2007.)

Then the temperature increase on Land with Eff = 0.55, resulting from the buildup of CO2 between 1880 and 2002, including the Water Vapor Feedback Effect, is:

ΔTL = TLo × [(1 + Eff × (ΔWVCO2 + ΔRadCO2) / RULo)1/4– 1]

ΔTL = 507.9 × [(1 + 0.55 × (0.32 + 1.32) / 360)1/4– 1] = 0.3 oF

Compare this Maximum increase in the Average Global Land Temperature effected by the buildup in CO2, 0.3 oF, to the actual increase in Average Global Land Temperature of 2.6 oF.

Using the ratio of Average Temperature to Land Temperature, 0.56, the increase in Average Global Temperature effected by the buildup in CO2 over this period is 0.2oF compared to the actual increase in Average Global Temperature over this period of 1.4oF.[8]

Clearly the buildup of CO2 over this period, 1880 – 2002, is not the cause of this temperature increase.[9]

The IPCC Formulations for Determining the Temperature Increase from the Buildup of CO2 are Incorrect and Substantially Overstate the Resulting Temperature Increase

The IPCC uses different formulae for calculating the increase in average global temperature from a buildup of CO2, which appear to be based upon the formulation of Arrhenius (1896) who set out his formula for a change in Average Global Temperature in degrees Celsius, as

ΔTArr = S × log2 (C/Co)

S, is the doubling sensitivity and it is normally given in degrees Celsius.

In Arrhenius’ paper, S can be determined as equaling 5.8o C. However, in his subsequent book, he suggests a smaller climate sensitivity, S = 4. Arrhenius & Borns (1906)

The IPCC’s most recent report (2013) states: “equilibrium climate sensitivity (the doubling sensitivity) is likely in the range 1.5 K [S] to 4.5 K [S] (high confidence).” IPCC (2013)

Since the IPCC is focused on the effects of doubling the concentration of CO2 from 400 ppmv to 800 ppmv, I will focus on this as well.

Such a doubling would result in an increase of 3.7 w/m2 in total heating power from the buildup of CO2, after applying the applying the IPCC formula for increases in heating of, ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C / C0), increasing this for the Water Vapor Feedback Effect and with Eff = 0.55, this would give rise to an increase in Average Global Land Temperature, using the above formulas, of 0.8oF.

Referring to Figure 1, above, a 0.8 degree increase in Average Global Land Temperature corresponds to ~ a 0.4 degree, increase in Average Global Temperature.

Set out below in Table 2, below, is a comparison of the temperature results based on using the Arrhenius formulation for such a doubling, for values of S ranging from 1.5 to 4.5 and comparing the required increase in heating to effect such a change to the 4.3 w/m2 determined as set out above.

Table 2

Temperature and power required using Arrhenius Formulation for various values of S Proposed by the IPCC

S oC ΔTArr  

Deg. F

% Increase over actual temperature increase of 0.4oF % Increase in Power required to effect this temperature increase compared to actual power increase of 4.3 w/m2
1.5 2.7 488% 274%
2.0 3.6 684% 386%
2.5 4.5 880% 499%
3.0 5.4 1076% 613%
3.5 6.3 1272% 728%
4.0 7.2 1468% 844%
4.5 8.1 1664% 961%

The IPCC formulation for determining an increase in heating, ΔRadCO2, is dependent solely on the change in concentration, ΔRadCO2  is proportional to ln (C / C0). There is no “S” variable in this formulation. Therefore, the increase in heating is 3.7 w/m2, regardless of the value of S.

An increase in heating of 4.3 w/m2 can cause a 0.8oF increase in Average Global Temperature – no more; much less a range of temperature increases as high as 8.1oF.

To publish a range of the Maximum increases in temperature for the same increase in concentration and, therefore, the same heating is nothing short of scientifically absurd. If the Maximum temperature increase that the rate of heating can cause, is 0.8oF, that is it. This is best illustrated by column 4 which sets out the percentage increase in heating power required to cause the corresponding increase in temperature.

While some propose far greater increase in power from the Water Feedback Effect based on some theoretical concepts, the fact is the Water Feedback Effect has been measured. Any theoretical calculation or computer model that predicts a greater heating from this effect is wrong.[10]

Moreover, the basic and fundamental law that energy is always conserved, stands as a complete and total bar to any increase in temperature greater than 0.8oF.

Further, that the Arrhenius formulation, ΔTArr = S × log2 (C/Co) is simply wrong can be shown as follows:

Converting this expression to natural log function, then

ΔTArr = S × 1.44 × ln (C/Co)

As noted above, according to the IPCC, the increase in radiative power per square meter, ΔRadCO2, from an increase in the concentration of CO2, can be determined as:

ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C/Co)

Thus,

ln (C/Co) = ΔRadCO2 / 5.35

Substituting ΔRadCO2 / 5.35 for ln (C/Co) in the Arrhenius formulation for calculation for change of temperature results in,

ΔTArr = 1.8 × S × 1.44 × ln (C/Co) = S × 1.44 × ΔRadCO2 / 5.35

which means that ΔTArr is directly proportional to changes heating, ΔRadCO2.

As noted above, based upon the basic principles of radiative heating,

ΔTCO2 = To × [(1 + ΔRadCO2 / RUo)1/4– 1]

which means that instead of being directly proportional to changes heating, ΔRadCO2, as Arrhenius assumes, ΔTCO2 is proportional to the fourth root of changes in heating, ΔRadCO21/4. Arrhenius’ conjecture is clearly not founded on the principles of physics.

The Arrhenius formulation and IPCC approach cannot possibly be correct.

Another writer, Ellis (2013) derives the equation for the increase in temperature, ΔTEll, in degrees Fahrenheit, resulting from an increase in heating, ΔRadCO2, which can be expressed as:

ΔTEll = 1.8 × 0.31× ΔRadCO2 = 0.56 × ΔRadCO2

Comparing this to Arrhenius, effectively in Ellis’ formulation, S is ~ 2.

These and similar calculations, Jacob (1999: § 7.4.3), in which the change in temperature is also directly proportional to changes in ΔRadCO2, instead of being proportional to the fourth root of the change in ΔRadCO2 as (1+ΔRadCO2 / Ru).25, do not comply with the radiative heating laws of thermodynamics and are simply wrong.

Given how straightforward the correct formulation is, one wonders why this is not employed by the IPCC and why “The IPCC’s range of uncertainty in the value of k[S] extends from 1.5 C to 4.5 C, with a central value of 3.0 C.”

Conclusion

The IPCC’s determinations overstate, significantly, the role of CO2 in Global Warming and are wrong.

The change in the Average Global Temperature for Land between 1880 and 2002 was 2.6oF. To effect such an increase requires an increase of 13.8 w/m2 in Total Average Heating Power. The Maximum total increase in total Average Heating Power that the buildup of COover this period could have effected is 1.6 w/m2. The Maximum increase in the Average Global Temperature for Land that the buildup of COover this period could drive cannot exceed 0.3 oF. Comparing 1) the Maximum increase in heating power of 1.6 w/mto the required increase in power to effect a temperature change of  Land of 2.6oF, 13.8 w/m2,2) the Maximum increase in temperature that can be effected by this increased heating of 1.6 w/m2, 0.3oF in the Average Global Temperature of Land, resulting from the actual increase in the concentration of CO2 between 1880 and 2002, to the actual temperature change of Land of 2.6oF and 3) comparing the correct prediction for a doubling of the concentration of CO2 of a Maximum increase of 0.8oF increase in Average Global Temperature compared to the IPCC’s range of 2.7 to 8.1oF, demonstrates, conclusively, that the IPCC is wrong. As a factor in Global Warming, increases in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 have been, and will continue to be, largely irrelevant.

This is not merely a scientific debate.

Governments across the globe are in the process of implementing and planning to implement, laws regulations, changes in taxing and offering direct and indirect subsidies and credits that in the future could result in costs that, in the aggregate, could equal the Annual Gross Domestic Product of the economies of all the countries in the World, based upon the determinations of and pronouncements from the IPCC. While potentially devastating to the economies and peoples of all nations, these efforts may not result in any meaningful reduction in the buildup of CO2, but even if they succeed in achieving this goal, this almost certainly will not result in a reduction of the Average Global Temperatures, because as a factor in Global Warming, the buildup of CO2 is largely irrelevant.

There will be no return on these economically damaging and tremendously costly investments.

Let me conclude with a few questions:

With all of the data possessed by the IPCC and all of the experts it has mustered, why is it that I have not seen any publications in which the IPCC, and its affiliates have:

1. Shown or discussed the increase in total heating power required to have caused the 2.6oF global average increase in land temperature since 1880?

2. Applied the computer models it uses for predictions to the period 1880 to today and compared the results to the actual average annual global temperature trends from 1880 to today?

3. Used the straightforward formulation, based on classical physics, to calculate the Maximum temperature increase a buildup in Carbon Dioxide can cause or explained why they view this as inapplicable?

Surely, the IPCC has considered these questions. If not, it should.

Looking back, it is now clear. The 2007 the Nobel Peace Prize was awarde because the work of the recipients would not qualify for an award of the Nobel Prize for Physics or Economics.


References

Arrhenius, S (1896) “On the influence of carbonic acid in the air upon the temperature of the groundPhilosophical Magazine Series 5 Vol. 41

Arrhenius, S. & Borns, H. (1908) “Worlds in the Making; the Evolution of the Universe New York, Harper” pp. 53 & 56

Cox, J.D. “Understanding the Weather’s Water Cycle” Weather For Dummies (www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-the-weathers-water-cycle.html).

Dessler, A., (2014) “Measuring the effect of Water Vapor on climate warming.” (phys.org/news/2014-03-effect-vapor-climate.html).

Ellis, R. (2013b) (www.globalwarmingequation.info/global%20warming%20eqn.pdf).

Gray, W.M. (2012) “The Physical Flaws of the Global Warming Theory and Deep Ocean Circulation Changes as the Primary Climate Driver” (http://tropical.atmos.colostate.edu)

IPCC (2013) Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Fifth Assessment Report (AR5) WG1, http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/report/WG1AR5_SPM_FINAL.pdf

Jacob, D.J. (1999)§ 7.4.3 Radiative forcing and surface temperature.”, Introduction to Atmospheric Chemistry”, Princeton University Press, (acmg.seas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/djj/book/bookchap7.html)

Lindzen, R.S. (2007) “Taking Greenhouse Warming Seriously” Energy & Environment, Vol. 18 No. 7+8

Luciuk, M. “Temperature and Radiation” (http://www.asterism.org/tutorials/tut40RadiationTutorial.pdf)

NOAA (2010) “Global Land and Ocean Temperature Anomalies January – December.”, NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center

Trenberth, K.E. (2011) “Tracking Earth’s energy: A key to climate variability and change.” (www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?n=865).


[1] Imagine a football stadium filled with 10,000 people (representing the atmosphere), with 100 to 400 people close to the field hollering all of the time (representing the initial level of GHG). The noise increase at field level from the addition of one more hollering person assigned to the highest seating level is similar in effect to the heating increase of one part per ten thousand of CO2.

[2] “…general circulation models (GCMs) can be used to estimate the surface warming associated with an increase in Greenhouse Gas concentrations. The GCMs are 3-dimensional meteorological models that attempt to capture the ensemble of radiative, dynamical, and hydrological factors controlling the Earth’s climate through the solution of fundamental equations describing the physics of the system. In these models, a radiative perturbation associated with increase in a Greenhouse Gas (radiative forcing) triggers an initial warming; complex responses follow…… There is still considerable doubt regarding the ability of GCMs to simulate perturbations to climate, and indeed different GCMs show large disagreements in the predicted surface warmings resulting from a given increase in Greenhouse Gases. …. Despite these problems, all GCMs tend to show a linear relationship between the initial radiative forcing and the ultimate perturbation to the surface temperature, the difference between models lying in the slope of that relationship.” (Jacob §7.4) (Emphasis added)

As noted below, the relationship between temperature and radiative heating is that temperature increases as heating to the ¼ power. (∆T µ ∆F1/4). It is not linear, which would greatly overstate the increase in temperature by hundreds of a percent. A “linear relationship between the initial radiative forcing and the ultimate perturbation to the surface temperature” is contrary to correct “fundamental equations describing the physics of the system”. Basic thermodynamics also teaches that the rate of heat transfer to the Earth’s surface cannot exceed the sum of the net radiative heating from current solar and back radiation.

[3] The MODTRAN algorithm solves the Line By Line radiative transfer equations at very fine spectral resolution.

[4] This equation is based on a determination for the optical (IR) opacity of CO2 and the assumption that the most significant and variable GHG, Water Vapor, was constant. This is not a valid assumption. More importantly this calculation ignores the very real and complex effects of CO2 band saturation, which can only be determined accurately using a very sophisticated computer model. Based on the simulations I have performed; the IPCC model produces results that are consistently higher than the output of the Modtran computer calculations.

[5] Knowing that Land covers 29.4% of the Earth’s surface, the Oceans account for 84% of total evaporation (Cox), in 1880 the average Land temperature was 2.6oF lower, using the energy budget data from Trenberth (2011), measured changes in solar heating and the Water Vapor Feedback Effect for changes in temperature, with –

1. Up Radiation adjusted for relative changes in Average Global Land Temperature to the fourth power,

2. Back Radiation adjusted to take these changes in Up Radiation into account after accounting for the Water Vapor Feedback Effects, and

3. Thermal Convection calculated as Total Heating less Up Radiation and Evaporative Power Land for the respective year.

one can estimate the Earth’s average energy budget.

[6] “From 2002 to 2009, an infrared sounder aboard NASA’s Aqua satellite measured the atmospheric concentration of Water Vapor. Combined with a radiative transfer model, Gordon et al. used these observations to determine the strength of the Water Vapor Feedback. According to their calculations, atmospheric Water Vapor amplifies warming by 2.2 plus or minus 0.4 watts per square meter per degree Celsius. This value, however, is only the “short-term” feedback—the strength of the feedback as measured during the observational period. This value is subject to short-term climate variability. The true value of the feedback, the “long-term” value, is what the short-term observed values should trend towards when given enough time.”

Using a series of climate models, the authors estimate the strength of the long-term Water Vapor Feedback. Extrapolating from their short-term observations they calculate a long-term feedback strength of 1.9 to 2.8 watts per square meter per degree Celsius.” 2.8 watts per square meter is the Water Vapor Feedback measure employed in this paper for temperature measured in degrees Celsius which is converted to 1.6 for temperature measured in degrees Fahrenheit.

While this measurement relates this amplification in heating to linear changes in Average Global Temperature, not to changes in temperature to the fourth power, this is likely so because this is a measure of changes in concentration which, over time, are driven by evaporation which changes linearly with temperature, the effects of which are orders of magnitude greater than changes in heat flux from changes in temperature.

[7] Of course, temperatures vary across the globe. If one performs this calculation for a range of initial temperature changes, ± 30oF, for example, and adjusts the Up Radiation accordingly, the average temperature change of this range is within one percent of the average temperature change calculated using this formula. Therefore, the Average Global Land temperature increase is calculated as set forth above.

[8] Referring to Figure 1, it is evident that Global Warming did not commence until the late 1970’s and ceased prior to 2002.

If one does the same calculations for the 38 ppmv increase in CO2 over this period; the Maximum increase in the Average Global Land Temperature effected by this buildup in CO2 is 0.2 oF. The actual increase in Average Global Land Temperature over this period is 1.8 oF.

The increase in Average Global Temperature effected by the buildup in CO2 over this period is 0.1oF compared to the actual increase in Average Global Temperature over this period of 1oF, or 10% of the actual increase.

[9] Global Warming nonetheless occurred between the late 1970’s and 2002. I show in another paper what the likely causes of this were.

[10] There are those who believe a range is appropriate due to the inability to precisely predict the impact of delays in reaching an equilibrium temperature and the difficulties associated with modeling the thermal diffusivity and responses of the Oceans and the manner in which the atmosphere responds to increases in heating.

Given an increase of 1 -2 ppmv per year in the concentration of CO2, reaching an equilibrium temperature on Land should occur far faster than the rate of change. But, whether or not this is correct, this paper assumes that the equilibrium temperature, which is the Maximum temperature, is reached and while all of these oceanic and atmospheric factors make it difficult to predict the precise effects of increases in GHG heating, these ranges must all be less than the Maximum increase in the Average Global Temperature that the heating can effect. They cannot exceed the Maximum number.


Copyright © William Van Brunt, 2016. All rights reserved.

William Van Brunt is a practicing lawyer and President and CEO of JFA, LLC. Before attending law school, he was a senior scientist and part of a highly successful design team engaged in state of the art research and development for, and writing the complex software necessary to determine the aerodynamics and heating of hypersonic vehicles for the U.S. Air Force and Navy and probes into the planet Venus, for NASA. Relevant to this topic are the degrees he holds from the Pennsylvania State University, B.S. (Aeronautical Engineering) and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, M.S. (Aeronautics and Astronautics), where he was elected to the Society of Sigma Xi. Fascinated by the claims made about the role of Carbon Dioxide in Global Warming and causes therefor, his is a novel, in depth and totally independent assessment of this topic.

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404 Comments
Chimp
December 11, 2016 12:55 pm

Among the reasons why IPCC is wrong is that its GIGO models don’t do clouds.

Reply to  Chimp
December 11, 2016 1:17 pm

Not ‘don’t do’. Cannot do. And that is only one of several reasons.

Chimp
Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 4:57 pm

Rud,
I meant to say among the many reasons.
Cannot of course is correct, but I was playing on the old “I don’t do windows” saw.
Hive,
Should also be RICO, ie Racketeering Influenced Criminal Organization.
Pop.
Hexameter, no less!

Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 5:15 pm

Hey Chimp, regards. Got it.

Chimp
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 12:45 pm

And, of course, the computer gamers don’t want to do clouds.

Hivemind
Reply to  Chimp
December 11, 2016 2:01 pm

Not GIGO – FICO (Faith In, Confirmation Out).

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Chimp
December 11, 2016 2:50 pm

When is our world warming?
That depends on the sun
The ways oceans run,
Plus clouds, in complexity forming.

December 11, 2016 12:59 pm

I don’t understand the maths, but I like the appearance of it and the conclusion. It is in line with common sense unlike the UN, IPCC,our governments, etc. Thank you,William.

arthur4563
December 11, 2016 12:59 pm

Within the scheme of things, the issue of whether additional atmospheric CO2 would produce X or Y temperature effect is irrelevant, since there will never exist those levels of atmospheric CO2, due to transformation of power generation to molten salt reactors and automotive vehicles to electric.
The issue of concern is a significant reduction of atmospheric CO2. We know for certain some of the effects of such an event and they would be catastrophic. Yet I hear nothing from the folks who want to completely eliminate CO2 emitting processes from our world. The biggest errors otherwise intelligent folks make are due to embracing a false asumption , like “The less CO2, the better.”

December 11, 2016 1:30 pm

The problem with calling CO2 a greenhouse gas on a water planet is that CO2 reacts with water to form bicarbonate, HCO3-. That is an acid, not a gas, and with that, the radiance effect is nullified. In contact with a world ocean, CO2 reacts with sea water rich in calcium to make carbonate, CaCO3, which is used by microorganisms or precipitated. High atmospheric CO2 makes calcite ooze in the ocean continental shelfs.

Reply to  Donald Kasper
December 11, 2016 2:06 pm

The problem with your comment is that Henry’s Law in physical chemistry guarantees some of the CO2 remains in the armosphere where it remains a GHG.

son of mulder
December 11, 2016 1:37 pm

Where is the impact of clouds in all this? Is it the difference of 2 in Solar Radiation 159 and 161 between 1880 and 2002 in the heating budget. ie less reflection back to space? Intuitively I’d have expected less insolation and more cloud as the earth warmed.

December 11, 2016 1:45 pm

Arithmetic has gone wrong here
ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × [(1 + .55 × 1.3 / 360)1/4– 1] = 0.14oF
It isn’t. It is 0.252°F.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 1:47 pm

It may be units. It’s actually 0.14°C. But everything else is in F at this stage.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 2:35 pm

Oy.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 2:29 pm

Nick, my analysis says the problems are much deeper that arithmetic or units. Pound on the basic math equation development reasoning, not the messy details. You will get there.

jonthetechnologist
December 11, 2016 1:57 pm

Instead of the football analogy I use rice with other non technical folks. 1 pound of large grain rice is approxiately 10,000 grains, pour on table, remove 4 which represents CO2 in atmosphere, now cut one piece into(try) 20(maybe 30) pieces of which 1 is mankind’s contribution(appr. .00012%). Always makes them stop and think. Anyone add to this, my math may be off.
By the way, it’s about time we heard from a rocket scientist – absolutely terriffic

tony mcleod
Reply to  jonthetechnologist
December 14, 2016 4:41 am

Math is off, so is the reality. Saying “our” contribution is .00012% is either a rookie mistake or a fib.

Arfur Bryant
December 11, 2016 2:25 pm

[“The following are the basic principles and assumptions underlying the calculations set out in this paper:
1. The heating provided by CO2 is radiant heating and for purposes of this paper, when calculating the increase in heating that is a result of the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere the only source of any increase in heating in these calculations is CO2 and the Water Vapor Feedback Effect it creates.”]

Could the author (or anyone else) please explain the exact physical mechanism by which atmospheric CO2 ‘radiantly heats’ the surface of the planet?

Reply to  Arfur Bryant
December 11, 2016 2:50 pm

AB, you have grasped the essence of the ‘misconceived physics’ problem with this post. Atmospheric CO2 doesn’t and from first principles cannot heat anything. The greenhouse gas effect retards radiative cooling by infrared radiation emitted by Earth’s surface heated to whatever temp by incoming solar radiation and watwr vapor as a transparent to solar GHG. The cooling retardation is because CO2 is a linear molecule that can absorb and re-emit (in any direction, ‘scattering’) IR wavelegths that correspond to Earth’s surface temperature. (Digression: It is not as potent a GHG as H2O becaue H2O is a ‘Mickey mouse eared’ polar molecule with more quantum vibrational IR photon absorption modes. That physics truth is your microwave oven.) CO2 and ‘backradiation’ cannot heat anything, only retard cooling. All heating comes from higher energy (shorter wavelength) incoming solar radiation. To repeat, AGW is not a physics warming problem. It is an impaired cooling problem when incoming solar ‘heating’ is roughly constant. See my longer comment upthread. For details with illustrations and references, see essay Sensitive Uncertainties, for which this basic stuff is just part one of a longer conceptual exploration of ECS.

Bubba Cow
Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 4:13 pm

“4. The increase in heating from the Water Vapor Feedback Effect provided by an increase in average temperature, ΔTCO2, resulting solely from the increase in heating from a buildup in CO2”
Is it not the case that H2O, a bent molecule, also retards cooling but more powerfully because structure offers more quantum vibrational absorption modes = also not heating?

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 4:35 pm

Thank you Rud for saying that I have grasped the essential misconception. It seems that the premise upon which this post is based is incorrect, therefore the rest becomes assumptive.
I do, however, have a slight doubt about the term ‘retarded cooling’. I understand what you mean but I would have thought ‘delayed cooling’ is a better term. And this delay is very short. As the backradiation from CO2 is at a lower frequency (and therefore unable to raise the internal energy of the surface), then as it interacts with the surface molecules it is either transmitted or re-emitted immediately at the same frequency (like reflected). On being re-emitted, as it is unlikely to interact with the same or another CO2 molecule in the atmosphere (there being only 0.04% CO2 molecules by volume in the atmosphere), that radiation (photon, if you like) will still escape to space. So any radiative ECS appears to be based upon the notion (postulation) that a doubling of CO2 (0.028% to 0.056%) is likely to cause warming due to the slightly delay of (approx) 33% of the backradiation from maximum 0.056% bv being delayed very slightly.
So where does Lindzen get his ECS of 1.2C? This seems rather high…
Thanks for you time but I won’t be able to respond any more tonight.
Regards,
Arfur

Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 5:31 pm

AB, time shifted additional info you can verify via google. The scattering ‘delay’ (your term) is currently measured by satellite above TOA as an about 0.6w/m^2 radiative imbalance subject to measurement, seasonal, and hemispheric uncertainty. It is both real and net significant. The IR ‘fog’ is very substantive. I do not have the chops to do the radiative frequency line by line quantum calcs, but Modtran and Hitran do. Take your pick as they basically both calculate the same conclusion.

Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 6:30 pm

The scattering ‘delay’ (your term) is currently measured by satellite above TOA as an about 0.6w/m^2 radiative imbalance subject to measurement, seasonal, and hemispheric uncertainty.

Do you think they can take global measurements for a year, and narrow the uncertainty to detect a 0.6w/m^2?
I would be surprised if a single measurement had anywhere near that low an uncertainty to detect 6/10 of a watt imbalance.
And was the modtran a static snapshot of the dynamic night time cooling dynamics?

Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 7:00 pm

Micro, read Stephens et. al. 2012 for the most recent estimate of surface to TOA radiation fluxes. Note especially the uncertainties.

Bubba Cow
Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 11:09 pm

so, when is a question not a question – when there is ?

Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 7:41 am

ristvan December 11, 2016 at 2:50 pm
AB, you have grasped the essence of the ‘misconceived physics’ problem with this post. Atmospheric CO2 doesn’t and from first principles cannot heat anything.

Actually it does, there are two mechanisms: first in the lower troposphere the energy in the excited rovibronic state is predominantly transferred via collisions to neighboring molecules, those molecules have been heated and the excited CO2 is cooled. Second, if a photon is emitted (before collisional deactivation) then when it collides with say the earth’s surface, it transfers its energy to the absorbing surface, thereby heating it.
The cooling retardation is because CO2 is a linear molecule that can absorb and re-emit (in any direction, ‘scattering’) IR wavelegths that correspond to Earth’s surface temperature. (Digression: It is not as potent a GHG as H2O becaue H2O is a ‘Mickey mouse eared’ polar molecule with more quantum vibrational IR photon absorption modes.
The absorption of IR by CO2 in the 15 micron band occurs when the CO2 molecule is bent, when it is straight it has no dipole and so can’t absorb (because it is vibrating in the bending mode it spends the vast majority of its time ‘bent’)

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 10:54 am

Rud:
[“The scattering ‘delay’ (your term) is currently measured by satellite above TOA as an about 0.6w/m^2 radiative imbalance subject to measurement, seasonal, and hemispheric uncertainty. It is both real and net significant.”]
I browsed the Stephens et al 2012 paper. It states the imbalance is 0.6+/-0.4W/m2 but the uncertainty is 4W/m2. How can this be significant when measuring TOA radiation levels approximating 240 W/m2?
Phil:
[“Second, if a photon is emitted (before collisional deactivation) then when it collides with say the earth’s surface, it transfers its energy to the absorbing surface, thereby heating it.”]
No, there is no energy gained by the surface molecule as it is at an already higher energy state than the incoming photon and therefore the photon is unable to bridge the energy gap required to elevate the surface molecule to a ‘warmer’ energy level. Backradiation cannot heat the surface directly, unless the surface is colder than the atmosphere (in which case the atmospheric molecule would not have been ‘warmed’ anyway…). Rud is correct here.

Trick
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 11:36 am

Arfur – “(Stephens 2012) states the imbalance is 0.6+/-0.4W/m2 but the uncertainty is 4W/m2.”
You are mixing instruments here, the 0.6 from surface thermometers (precise & accurate) the 4 from radiometers (only precise) in orbit. The 2012 paper states the EB imbalance of 0.6+/-0.4W/m2 is from “best estimate ocean heat content (OHC) observations” going on to state from Argo data. The uncertainty of 4W/m2 is from un-calibrated CERES data obtained by precise but not extremely accurate instruments. So CERES team calibrates their raw data to match Argo for EB results. See for example Loeb 2016.
“No, there is no energy gained by the surface molecule as it is at an already higher energy state than the incoming photon”
If there were no energy gained in this case then 1LOT would be broken. So your statement is incorrect Arfur. Measurements over the spectrum and a hemisphere of directions show of 100 random photons incident on Earth natural L&O surface about 95 will indeed be absorbed at the surface and about 5 reflected.
“Backradiation cannot heat the surface directly”
Correct, as the 95 incident photons (“backradiation” or “all sky emission to surface”) absorbed add their energy to the surface, the surface cooling is slowed. This process should not be confused with a heating process though that often happens. Solar SW can heat Earth surface & atm., atm. LW can only slow the surface cooling. So that night time surface liquid water in view of increased atm. LW is found warmer by thermometer experiment than water not in view of the increased LW, for example when a cloud goes by. Both waters in this experiment continuously cooling on Newton’s straight line on semi log paper.

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 2:38 pm

Trick,
Many thanks for your clarification. On the point of the 0.6+/- 0.4 W/m2, do you consider this significant, as Rud does?
As to the 1LOT, why is it broken? There is no increase in internal (thermal) energy of the surface. If a cold object and a warm object are placed next to each other, the fact that they both radiate is not in question. But the heat flow is only one way: from hot to cold. If you now place a second cold object of the same temperature as the first next to the warm object, according to your comment there is now double the incoming energy (W/m2) being absorbed for energy gain by the warm object, so do you think the warm object will reduce its rate of cooling further? In which case, how many cold objects do you have to place next to a warm object before it actually gets hotter than it was?
Yes, the rate of cooling depends upon the temperature difference between the two objects and so, as the CO2 molecule warms (I know a single molecule can not be described as warm), the heat flow from the surface to it will reduce but as there are so few CO2 molecules in the atmosphere how much effect can this have on global temperature (whatever that is)? Consider also that the CO2 molecule emits as readily as it absorbs.
If 95% of back radiation is absorbed by the surface for energy gain, as you state, then even a small increase in CO2 will have a relatively large warming effect. This demonstrably has not happened. I don’t get wamrer by standing in from of a mirror… or four mirrors.
By the way, I very much respect your opinion, having seen you comment on other sites. So I am genuinely interested.

Trick
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 3:30 pm

Arfur: “As to the 1LOT, why is it broken?”
Arfur incorrectly wrote: “there is no energy gained by the surface molecule” which breaks 1LOT. While measurements show 95 of the 100 random photons I mentioned are annihilated (absorbed) at the surface, their energy cannot be annihilated as the energy in the 95 is not reflected nor transmitted, the energy MUST then be gained by the surface molecules( s) by measurement. The 1LOT rules out annihilation of energy.
Thus Arfur is incorrect to write “There is no increase in internal (thermal) energy of the surface.”. Correctly written: There is an increase in internal (thermal) energy of the surface thus its temperature will not decline as fast.
“But the heat flow is only one way: from hot to cold.”
Arfur misuses 1800s terminology. In modern times science knows no object possesses heat. The kinetic energy of two objects in contact and/or each in view can be exchanged both ways. 2LOT mandates increase in universe entropy determines the net direction.
“If you now place a second cold object of the same temperature as the first next to the warm object..”
Again, to determine net KE flow between your three objects refer to: 2LOT mandates increase in universe entropy determines the net direction.
“so do you think the warm object will reduce its rate of cooling further?”
2LOT mandates increase in universe entropy determines the net direction. You aren’t real specific here but 2LOT mandates a yes answer from what I can understand of your setup, Arfur added kinetic energy to the system when you added the third colder object.
“In which case, how many cold objects do you have to place next to a warm object before it actually gets hotter than it was?”
2LOT mandates increase in universe entropy determines the net direction. No amount of colder objects will suffice, universe entropy must increase.
“as there are so few CO2 molecules in the atmosphere how much effect can this have on global temperature (whatever that is)? “
Think you mean global Tmedian. Your question is not clear, maybe you need to read up on ECS of which estimates abound. Pick your favorite.
“If 95% of back radiation is absorbed by the surface for energy gain, as you state,”
I didn’t write that, I wrote around 95 of 100 random photons incident on the Earth natural L&O surface will be absorbed, those 5 reflected are accounted for in the energy budgets.
Think you mean: “I don’t get warmer by standing in front of a mirror… or four mirrors.”
Correct, as your test shows you don’t get warmer, because 2LOT mandates increase in universe entropy determines the net direction of KE flow. In this case your mirror simply blocks the radiation from the wall behind it that would have been absorbed (and reflected) by you. Now the mirror has replaced the wall’s radiation.

Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 4:47 pm

Arfur Bryant December 12, 2016 at 10:54 am
Phil:
[“Second, if a photon is emitted (before collisional deactivation) then when it collides with say the earth’s surface, it transfers its energy to the absorbing surface, thereby heating it.”]
No, there is no energy gained by the surface molecule as it is at an already higher energy state than the incoming photon and therefore the photon is unable to bridge the energy gap required to elevate the surface molecule to a ‘warmer’ energy level. Backradiation cannot heat the surface directly, unless the surface is colder than the atmosphere (in which case the atmospheric molecule would not have been ‘warmed’ anyway…). Rud is correct here.

No you’re wrong, the photon carries no information about its temperature of origin! The photon will excite the energy level of the recipient molecule to a higher energy level if the energy given up by the photon is an exact match for the energy difference between those two levels.

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Trick,
Our posts are just going to get longer if we constantly repeat each others statements, so I will revert to keeping it simple and real:
The rate of cooling depends only upon the temperature difference between the hot and cold objects. Any increase in atmospheric temperature due to the addition of 280 CO2 molecules per million will not measurably change the temperature difference between the surface and space.
The 2LOT says absolutely nothing about ‘net radiation’. In simple terms, the Clausius statement reads that heat will only flow from hot to cold. Spin it whatever way you want. Net radiation is irrelevant. We are discussing global warming, not global net radiation. Radiation is not heat. The heat flow is only dependant on the temperature difference.
You stated quite clearly that the radiation from the colder object (atmospheric CO2 in this discussion) adds to the thermal energy of the absorbing surface. This does not happen, because then there would be heat flowing from cold to hot. Speak to Clausius.
You agree with me that no amount of cold objects can make a warm object even hotter, so why do you persist in saying that radiation from a cooler source adds thermal energy to the receiving surface?
The logical extension of your argument is that an old lady sitting in her living room freezing to death can make herself warmer by adding a few wooden chairs next to her, because then she will increase the incoming radiation which will reduce the ‘net KE flow’. In real life, she will not get warmer, and neither will the planet gain thermal energy in any measurable sense from a doubling of atmospheric CO2.
Oh, and as for ECS, I choose 0.01C +/- 0.009…
Keep it real.

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 13, 2016 12:51 pm

Phil,
[“No you’re wrong, the photon carries no information about its temperature of origin! The photon will excite the energy level of the recipient molecule to a higher energy level if the energy given up by the photon is an exact match for the energy difference between those two levels.”]
I never said it did carry temperature information. However, it does carry an energy state which is dependant upon its frequency. If two identical objects at a different temperature emit photons, the higher energy of the photon from the hotter object is an indication of the emitter’s temperature.
And the only time a higher (thermal) energy level will be reached by the receiving surface is if the incoming photon possesses the required energy to elevate the ‘excitement’ level (your term). On the macro scale, this is portrayed by an increase in temperature of the surface. As heat only flows one from hot to cold, the higher thermal anergy level can not be reached by the absorption of a low energy photon.
It is easy to get bogged down in the micro (quantum) level but empirical evidence regarding global temperature is gained at the macro level.
There is no real evidence to suggest the existence of surface warming by backradiation.

Trick
Reply to  ristvan
December 13, 2016 1:33 pm

Arfur 12:36pm – Things you get obviously wrong easily found by consulting a basic text on the subject that you should have done to begin with. You will never get these right unless you change, and you won’t change. Prove ME wrong by changing, give a single cite to experiment/original Clausius words that show my correction is needed.
Arfur:
1) Misquotes Clausius.
2) Doesn’t know global Tmedian has measurably and meaningfully changed since global thermometer fields were installed. Now we have space based radiometers.
3) Doesn’t understand 2LOT is an entropy law not a heat law thus relevant for the Earth/atm. system energy budgets which must increase universe entropy.
4) Doesn’t understand there is no heat in an object, not in the atm., ocean or dirt surface though there is a lot of constituent KE in each of those.
5) Doesn’t understand why there is no net cold to hot in anything I wrote as I used 1LOT object KE transfer and 2LOT for direction. Quote Clausius words, find that Clausius wrote consistent with there is no heat in an object only constituent KE.
6) Doesn’t understand I persist in writing radiation absorbed into an object becomes energy INTO that object consistent with 1LOT and 2LOT confirmed by experiment..
7) Doesn’t understand that adding wooden chairs (or mirrors) to a room is not the same as adding CO2 to Earth atm. Prof. Tyndall added CO2 to his experiment not wooden chairs (or mirrors).
Arfur has a lot of basic study ahead to correct his writing OR show a single experimental cite where my writing needs to be corrected. BTW Arfur’s choice for ECS contradicts his writing AND is nowhere near meaningful.

Trick
Reply to  ristvan
December 13, 2016 1:59 pm

Arfur 12:51pm: “If two identical objects at a different temperature emit photons, the higher energy of the photon from the hotter object is an indication of the emitter’s temperature.”
The identical objects at different temperatures emit photons of every wavelength (thus all energies) from experiment and theory Arfur. You did write colder, warmer. You cannot tell from which object any single photon originated, as Phil. told you, the photons carry no temperature information, only energy, momentum (linear and angular), polarization.
“the higher thermal energy level can not be reached by the absorption of a low energy photon.”
All experiments since Prof. Tyndall’s (and some earlier work) have shown the opposite Arfur. Or cite a single experiment showing what you write is correct.
“There is no real evidence to suggest the existence of surface warming by backradiation.”
Then you haven’t bothered to find it and you get confused misquoting Clausius, using terms like “heat” “warming”; suggest Arfur start with the 1861 experimental report by Prof. Tyndall on his many “hundreds” of experiments conducted in 1859, 1860 that “astonished” even him. Easily found on the internet.

Reply to  ristvan
December 13, 2016 4:35 pm

Arfur Bryant December 13, 2016 at 12:51 pm
Phil,
[“No you’re wrong, the photon carries no information about its temperature of origin! The photon will excite the energy level of the recipient molecule to a higher energy level if the energy given up by the photon is an exact match for the energy difference between those two levels.”]
I never said it did carry temperature information. However, it does carry an energy state which is dependant upon its frequency. If two identical objects at a different temperature emit photons, the higher energy of the photon from the hotter object is an indication of the emitter’s temperature.

No, an object at 350K and one at 250K can both emit a 15μm photon, both photons will be absorbed by a blackbody at 300K equally well it has nothing to do with the temperature of the source. The observer has no way to tell the temperature of the source by the energy of an individual photon.
And the only time a higher (thermal) energy level will be reached by the receiving surface is if the incoming photon possesses the required energy to elevate the ‘excitement’ level (your term). On the macro scale, this is portrayed by an increase in temperature of the surface. As heat only flows one from hot to cold, the higher thermal anergy level can not be reached by the absorption of a low energy photon.
Yes it can and does,15μm photons incident on an absorber it will raise the energy of the absorber by ~8kJ/mole regardless of the temperature of the absorber.
It is easy to get bogged down in the micro (quantum) level but empirical evidence regarding global temperature is gained at the macro level.
There is no real evidence to suggest the existence of surface warming by back radiation.

There is plenty, a very direct one is the use of radiation shields in the use of thermocouples in flames. If you put a thermocouple in a flame you measure a lower temperature than the actual flame temperature due to loss to the surroundings by radiation. If you put a quartz radiation shield around the thermocouple the temperature measured goes up closer to the flame temperature because the radiation exchange with the shield involves ‘back radiation’ from the shield which is hotter than that from the previous surroundings. This is very old technology, so old it was the subject of NACA reports, i.e. before NASA.
Scadron, M.D. and Warshawsky, I. (1952) “Experimental determination of time constants andNusselt numbers for bare wire thermocouples on high velocity air streams and analytic approximation of conduction and radiation errors”. NACA Technical Note 2599.

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 14, 2016 4:57 pm

Trick:
[“Arfur:
1) Misquotes Clausius.
2) Doesn’t know global Tmedian has measurably and meaningfully changed since global thermometer fields were installed. Now we have space based radiometers.
3) Doesn’t understand 2LOT is an entropy law not a heat law thus relevant for the Earth/atm. system energy budgets which must increase universe entropy.
4) Doesn’t understand there is no heat in an object, not in the atm., ocean or dirt surface though there is a lot of constituent KE in each of those.
5) Doesn’t understand why there is no net cold to hot in anything I wrote as I used 1LOT object KE transfer and 2LOT for direction. Quote Clausius words, find that Clausius wrote consistent with there is no heat in an object only constituent KE.
6) Doesn’t understand I persist in writing radiation absorbed into an object becomes energy INTO that object consistent with 1LOT and 2LOT confirmed by experiment..
7) Doesn’t understand that adding wooden chairs (or mirrors) to a room is not the same as adding CO2 to Earth atm. Prof. Tyndall added CO2 to his experiment not wooden chairs (or mirrors).”]

Ok Trick, have it your way, we’ll do the tennis match quoting debate…
Arfur:
1) Misquotes Clausius. ** No I didn’t. I said, “In simple terms, the Clausius statement reads that heat will only flow from hot to cold. Spin it whatever way you want.” Tell me why this is a misquotation.**
2) Doesn’t know global Tmedian has measurably and meaningfully changed since global thermometer fields were installed. Now we have space based radiometers. ** I have never mentioned TMedian so stop misquoting me. Of course Median is going to change if you use modern measuring instruments against ice core data or tree rings…**
3) Doesn’t understand 2LOT is an entropy law not a heat law thus relevant for the Earth/atm. system energy budgets which must increase universe entropy. ** Strange, the term Entropy was coined by Clausius after a few iterations of his 1850 essay entitled ‘On the Motive Power of Heat…’ Who am I to disagree with him?**
4) Doesn’t understand there is no heat in an object, not in the atm., ocean or dirt surface though there is a lot of constituent KE in each of those. ** Again, I never said there was; I talked about heat FLOW. Please stop twisting my words to support your straw man arguments.**
5) Doesn’t understand why there is no net cold to hot in anything I wrote as I used 1LOT object KE transfer and 2LOT for direction. Quote Clausius words, find that Clausius wrote consistent with there is no heat in an object only constituent KE. **Yes, strange he first used the term ‘mechanical equivalence of heat’ before he called it Entropy, isn’t it?**
6) Doesn’t understand I persist in writing radiation absorbed into an object becomes energy INTO that object consistent with 1LOT and 2LOT confirmed by experiment.. **So, does the energy INTO the object cause the object to get warmer or not? Simple question…**
7) Doesn’t understand that adding wooden chairs (or mirrors) to a room is not the same as adding CO2 to Earth atm. Prof. Tyndall added CO2 to his experiment not wooden chairs (or mirrors). **But Tyndall, who you seem to think had all the answers, experimented on the absorption of radiation by gasses such as CO2. He did not experiment on whether the backradiation from these gasses then re-heated the object from which they first received the radiation!**
Like I said Trick, keep it real. And please stop referring to me in the third person. I doubt if anyone else is watching by now…

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 14, 2016 5:13 pm

Phil,
[“No, an object at 350K and one at 250K can both emit a 15μm photon, both photons will be absorbed by a blackbody at 300K equally well it has nothing to do with the temperature of the source. The observer has no way to tell the temperature of the source by the energy of an individual photon.”]
Your statement is correct but misleading. Even though they CAN emit the same wavelength photo, the fact is that the 350K object can emit a photon which possesses more energy (and is at a shorter wavelength) than any photon emitted by the 250K object. It is this photon which can raise the internal (thermal) energy level of the receiving object.
[“Yes it can and does,15μm photons incident on an absorber it will raise the energy of the absorber by ~8kJ/mole regardless of the temperature of the absorber.”]
Well, congratulations! I wish you all the best patenting a room heater that can heat a room when the heating element is colder than the room…
[“There is plenty, a very direct one is the use of radiation shields in the use of thermocouples in flames. If you put a thermocouple in a flame you measure a lower temperature than the actual flame temperature due to loss to the surroundings by radiation. If you put a quartz radiation shield around the thermocouple the temperature measured goes up closer to the flame temperature because the radiation exchange with the shield involves ‘back radiation’ from the shield which is hotter than that from the previous surroundings. This is very old technology, so old it was the subject of NACA reports, i.e. before NASA.”]
And how does this relate to measurably warming the surface of the Earth by radiation from 0.04% of the cooler atmosphere which has itself been warmed by the Earth? Or are you trying to suggest that atmospheric CO2 is an effective insulator?
Dogma is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?

Reply to  ristvan
December 15, 2016 2:23 pm

Arfur Bryant December 14, 2016 at 5:13 pm
Phil,
[“No, an object at 350K and one at 250K can both emit a 15μm photon, both photons will be absorbed by a blackbody at 300K equally well it has nothing to do with the temperature of the source. The observer has no way to tell the temperature of the source by the energy of an individual photon.”]
Your statement is correct but misleading. Even though they CAN emit the same wavelength photo, the fact is that the 350K object can emit a photon which possesses more energy (and is at a shorter wavelength) than any photon emitted by the 250K object. It is this photon which can raise the internal (thermal) energy level of the receiving object.

Wrong, they both emit photons over the same wavelength (and hence energy) range, the difference is that the hotter one emits more photons at each wavelength with the distribution shifted to shorter wavelengths.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/imgmod/bbrc4b.gif
[“Yes it can and does,15μm photons incident on an absorber it will raise the energy of the absorber by ~8kJ/mole regardless of the temperature of the absorber.”]
Well, congratulations! I wish you all the best patenting a room heater that can heat a room when the heating element is colder than the room…

This was in answer to: And the only time a higher (thermal) energy level will be reached by the receiving surface is if the incoming photon possesses the required energy to elevate the ‘excitement’ level (your term). On the macro scale, this is portrayed by an increase in temperature of the surface. As heat only flows one from hot to cold, the higher thermal anergy level can not be reached by the absorption of a low energy photon.
You continue to incorrectly associate the wavelength of the photon with temperature and falsely assume that such a ‘low energy photon’ can not be absorbed by a warm surface. In fact a photon of any wavelength can be absorbed as long as the appropriate energy level separation exists in the absorber.
Take for example an O3 molecule in the atmosphere, it can emit IR in the 9-10 micron range, by your definition that would be a ‘low energy photon’, however if I focus enough 10 micron photons on a steel plate I will melt it!
In answer to your statement:
There is no real evidence to suggest the existence of surface warming by back radiation.
I replied:
[“There is plenty, a very direct one is the use of radiation shields in the use of thermocouples in flames. If you put a thermocouple in a flame you measure a lower temperature than the actual flame temperature due to loss to the surroundings by radiation. If you put a quartz radiation shield around the thermocouple the temperature measured goes up closer to the flame temperature because the radiation exchange with the shield involves ‘back radiation’ from the shield which is hotter than that from the previous surroundings. This is very old technology, so old it was the subject of NACA reports, i.e. before NASA.”]
And how does this relate to measurably warming the surface of the Earth by radiation from 0.04% of the cooler atmosphere which has itself been warmed by the Earth? Or are you trying to suggest that atmospheric CO2 is an effective insulator?

Easy, you have a thermocouple heated by a hot gas flow it loses heat by radiating to its surroundings, the heat balance is given by:
h(Tgas-Ttc)= εσ(Ttc^4-Tamb^4)
An example using typical parameters where the measured temperature is 1100K and Tamb is 300K
gives a Tgas of 1185K an error of about 7%.
Put a shield around the thermocouple which then is itself heated up to say 1000K, now Tamb for the thermocouple is 1000K (the Tamb^4 term is ‘back radiation’ from a cooler object) and the measured temperature (Ttc) is much closer to the gas temperature (Tgas). So the temperature of the thermocouple has increased by being surrounded by a shield that is cooler than itself.
Dogma is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?
I’ll leave the dogma to you I’ll stick with the science.

Reply to  Phil.
December 15, 2016 3:11 pm

So the temperature of the thermocouple has increased by being surrounded by a shield that is cooler than itself.

It’s just closer to the actual temperature of the flame. The flame isn’t any warmer.

Trick
Reply to  ristvan
December 15, 2016 4:53 pm

More fun with Arfur.
“1) Tell me why this is a misquotation” Clausius on his entropy law 2LOT, 9th memoir p. 365 direct quote: “2. The entropy of the universe tends to a maximum.” Clausius did not write it as Arfur misquotes.
2)”Of course Median is going to change” Good, Arfur changes, improves, now agrees there is energy gained by the surface molecule.
3) See 1).
4) “I talked about heat flow” Wrongly since something that does not exist in an object cannot flow out of that object. KE exists in object; KE can flow out as object cools.
5) No strangeness, Clausius worked from his experiments and those of others to develop the 2LOT theory.
6) “Does the energy INTO the object cause the object to get warmer or not? Simple question…” Higher temperature by thermometer measurement than without the kinetic energy as Prof. Tyndall showed by thermopile and thermometer.
7) Third person? Actually Tyndall did experiment on whether the backradiation from these gasses then re-heated the object from which they first received the radiation as there were thermometers shown in his radiation source & monitored steady. 2LOT held.

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 15, 2016 5:04 pm

Phil,
Firstly, I should have made my point more clearly, so thank you for making me realise that. Yes, any heat source can emit a photon of similar wavelengths. However, what I should have stated is that the average photon energy emitted from the warmer object is greater than the average photo energy from the cooler object. In addition, the SUM of energies from the warmer object is greater than that of the cooler object. I hope you can agree with that. Therefore, on average (which is what temperature is) the kinetic energy is greater associated with the warmer object. This means that, on average, a cooler object cannot heat (by radiate or any other transmission mechanism) a cooler object.
You continuously argue the microscopic whilst ignoring the macroscopic. Whereas there may well be photons of high energy emitted from any object, it is the average of the photons which are evidenced in the macroscopic world. This is the world of ‘global warming’. A single photon being absorbed by a surface is irrelevant to the overall temperature of the object. It is the cumulative sum (or average) that will denote whether a temperature rise will occur. I should have stressed this in my earlier comments.
Secondly, [“I’ll leave the dogma to you I’ll stick with the science.”]
The problem is you are not taking the holistic view. Science, at its most basic, has to make sense. That is why it was invented – to make sense of the real world. By just looking at the trees and not seeing the forest, you limit your world view and hide behind “oh, but I’m just doing science”. Quantum physics looks at the microscopic but the real world includes many other factors. So-called scientists who push an AGW agenda are doing so on an assumption, not evidence. ECS (in any significant sense) is an assumption, not fact.
As I said to you – and the thermocouple experiment proves your view, even though you did not answer me earlier – you are now trying to make the case that CO2 is an insulator. If you insulate against heat loss you will reduce heat loss but you will not make the source hotter. But the experiment bares no resemblance to the real world of back radiation from 0.04% of the atmosphere. The real – macro – world simply does not agree with you. Remove 99.96% of the radiation shield and repeat the experiment.
PS, Season’s Greetings! 🙂

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 17, 2016 3:21 am

Trick,
You are becoming tiresome. You cannot give a different quote from Clausius and then state that I have mis-quoted him! In his 1854 essay entitled ‘On a modified form of the second Fundamental Theorem in the Mechanical Theory of Heat’ (English translation 1856 page 86), Clausius states:
[“This principle, upon which the whole of the following development rests, is as follows: Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time.”]
If you are unable to accept this as a quote from Clausius then we have nothing further to discuss.
Further, you state, in response to me using the term ‘Heat Flow’:
[“Wrongly since something that does not exist in an object cannot flow out of that object. KE exists in object; KE can flow out as object cools.”]
Again, you are being obtuse to the point of ridiculousness. In the Entropy formula: delta S = delta Q divided by T, ask yourself what Q stands for. I agree that ‘heat’ cannot exist in an object but heat may be defined as the flow of energy (or energy in transfer) from a hot object to a colder object. Your statement “KE can flow out as object cools” is what would normally be termed as ‘heating’ the colder object.
Frankly, I don’t care if you want to side-track the point in meaningless jargon. The fact is – and I repeat – Heat cannot flow from Cold to Hot.
I will not respond further, so I wish you Season’s Greetings and a happy life.
Regards,
Arfur

Trick
Reply to  ristvan
December 17, 2016 7:19 am

Arfur – You can still learn from Clausius.
The 1854 quote you clip is not Clausius’ 2LOT. Many are misguided by your 1854 clip when they mistake that clip as the law, not you alone. That quote is derived from Clausius 2LOT. My point is your misquoting Clausius’ 2LOT causes you confusion when you invoke your 1854 clip as the law. You need to quote exactly the 2LOT and proceed your logic from there and you will find your confusions. You will find KE can flow from a lower temperature object to a higher temperature object and increase universe entropy consistent with 2LOT as Clausius wrote it contrary to your incorrect statement: “Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body.” Hint: Your study will find a need to invoke M-B distribution.
Q stands for kinetic energy flow in/out of an object (never heat) as Clausius clearly explained in his 1st memoir p. 18. Q adds a lot of confusion to your writing and that of others when you don’t define Q exactly as Clausius did. There is a lot of confusion that crept in behind on Q (even in many text books) and still exists today, I always urge reading the original authors which takes some work that many (most?) will not do & the confusion continues.

Reply to  ristvan
December 18, 2016 4:11 am

Arfur Bryant December 15, 2016 at 5:04 pm
Phil,
Firstly, I should have made my point more clearly, so thank you for making me realise that. Yes, any heat source can emit a photon of similar wavelengths. However, what I should have stated is that the average photon energy emitted from the warmer object is greater than the average photo energy from the cooler object. In addition, the SUM of energies from the warmer object is greater than that of the cooler object. I hope you can agree with that. Therefore, on average (which is what temperature is) the kinetic energy is greater associated with the warmer object.

So far so good.
This means that, on average, a cooler object cannot heat (by radiate or any other transmission mechanism) a cooler object.
I guess you meant warmer here? It’s not true, the warmer body will increase its temperature as the cooler body with which it is in equilibrium increases its temperature.
You continuously argue the microscopic whilst ignoring the macroscopic. Whereas there may well be photons of high energy emitted from any object, it is the average of the photons which are evidenced in the macroscopic world. This is the world of ‘global warming’. A single photon being absorbed by a surface is irrelevant to the overall temperature of the object. It is the cumulative sum (or average) that will denote whether a temperature rise will occur. I should have stressed this in my earlier comments.
But the photons are acting at the individual level, we constantly see convoluted arguments here that a photon emitted from a cooler body can not by some mysterious means be absorbed by the warmer body which is absolute bunk. You’ve got to get the microscopic right to get the whole right.
Secondly, [“I’ll leave the dogma to you I’ll stick with the science.”]
The problem is you are not taking the holistic view. Science, at its most basic, has to make sense. That is why it was invented – to make sense of the real world. By just looking at the trees and not seeing the forest, you limit your world view and hide behind “oh, but I’m just doing science”. Quantum physics looks at the microscopic but the real world includes many other factors. So-called scientists who push an AGW agenda are doing so on an assumption, not evidence. ECS (in any significant sense) is an assumption, not fact.

Quantum mechanics doesn’t make sense to some, including Einstein at one point but it is correct and necessary to understand the process.
As I said to you – and the thermocouple experiment proves your view, even though you did not answer me earlier – you are now trying to make the case that CO2 is an insulator. If you insulate against heat loss you will reduce heat loss but you will not make the source hotter. But the experiment bares no resemblance to the real world of back radiation from 0.04% of the atmosphere. The real – macro – world simply does not agree with you. Remove 99.96% of the radiation shield and repeat the experiment.
Why would I remove 99.96% of the CO2? 99.96% of the atmosphere is transparent to IR and has no part in the radiative interaction. If I double the CO2 it’s the same as increasing the emissivity of the radiation shield which would increase the temperature of the thermocouple.
<em.PS, Season’s Greetings! 🙂
Same to you.

Arfur Bryant
Reply to  ristvan
December 19, 2016 2:13 am

Phil,
You keep talking about your radiation shield but you don’t provide any evidence that ‘backradiation’ actually works.
I read your NACA TN 2599 and it only mentions a shield once (and it says nothing about Quartz). Here is the text:
[“”The thermocouple is initially shielded from the hot gases by a tube through which cooler air is blown. The tube is suddenly removed, exposing the unit to the hot gases. The response is shown in Fig 5.”]
Figure 5 shows that the temperature of the thermocouple rises once the tube has been removed! Help me out here please. Can you please give an exact reference to support your claim re backradiation?
You also state:
[“Easy, you have a thermocouple heated by a hot gas flow it loses heat by radiating to its surroundings, the heat balance is given by:
h(Tgas-Ttc)= εσ(Ttc^4-Tamb^4)
An example using typical parameters where the measured temperature is 1100K and Tamb is 300K
gives a Tgas of 1185K an error of about 7%.
Put a shield around the thermocouple which then is itself heated up to say 1000K, now Tamb for the thermocouple is 1000K (the Tamb^4 term is ‘back radiation’ from a cooler object) and the measured temperature (Ttc) is much closer to the gas temperature (Tgas). So the temperature of the thermocouple has increased by being surrounded by a shield that is cooler than itself.”]

No, you have insulated the thermocouple (which I have mentioned several times now) and then provided a source of energy into the thermocouple! Of course it will heat up! So, I repeat, are you claiming atmospheric CO2 is an insulator?

Reply to  Arfur Bryant
December 18, 2016 4:17 am

micro6500 December 15, 2016 at 3:11 pm
So the temperature of the thermocouple has increased by being surrounded by a shield that is cooler than itself.
It’s just closer to the actual temperature of the flame. The flame isn’t any warmer.

In this analogy the flame is the sun (the ultimate source of heat), the thermocouple is the earth (heated by the sun and cools by radiation with its surroundings), and the radiation shield is the atmosphere. I was asked to give an example of an object being heated via ‘back radiation’, I did so, one that’s used by engineers on a daily basis.

December 11, 2016 2:29 pm

In TS.6 IPCC AR5 admits they don’t know.
References:
Trenberth et al 2011jcli24 Figure 10
This popular balance graphic and assorted variations are based on a power flux, W/m^2. A W is not energy, but energy over time, i.e. 3.4 Btu/eng h or 3.6 kJ/SI h. The 342 W/m^2 ISR is determined by spreading the average 1,368 W/m^2 solar irradiance/constant over the spherical ToA surface area. (1,368/4 =342) There is no consideration of the elliptical orbit (perihelion = 1,416 W/m^2 to aphelion = 1,323 W/m^2) or day or night or seasons or tropospheric thickness or energy diffusion due to oblique incidence, etc. This popular balance models the earth as a ball suspended in a hot fluid with heat/energy/power entering evenly over the entire ToA spherical surface. This is not even close to how the real earth energy balance works. Everybody uses it. Everybody should know better.
An example of a real heat balance based on Btu/h is attached. Basically (Incoming Solar Radiation spread over the cross sectional area) = (U*A*dT et. al. leaving the lit side perpendicular to the spherical surface ToA) + (U*A*dT et. al. leaving the dark side perpendicular to spherical surface area ToA) The atmosphere is just a simple HVAC heat balance problem.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7373
“Technically, there is no absolute dividing line between the Earth’s atmosphere and space, but for scientists studying the balance of incoming and outgoing energy on the Earth, it is conceptually useful to think of the altitude at about 100 kilometers above the Earth as the “top of the atmosphere.” The top of the atmosphere is the bottom line of Earth’s energy budget, the Grand Central Station of radiation. It is the place where solar energy (mostly visible light) enters the Earth system and where both reflected light and invisible, thermal radiation from the Sun-warmed Earth exit. The balance between incoming and outgoing energy at the top of the atmosphere determines the Earth’s average temperature. The ability of greenhouses gases to change the balance by reducing how much thermal energy exits is what global warming is all about.”
ToA is 100 km or 62 miles. It is 68 miles between Denver and Colorado Springs. That’s not just thin, that’s ludicrous thin.
The GHE/GHG loop as shown on Trenberth Figure 10 is made up of three main components: upwelling of 396 W/m^2 which has two parts: 63 W/m^2 and 333 W/m^2 and downwelling of 333 W/m^2.
The 396 W/m^2 is determined by inserting 16 C or 279K in the S-B BB equation. This result produces 55 W/m^2 of power flux more than ISR entering ToA, an obvious violation of conservation of energy created out of nothing. That should have been a warning.
ISR of 341 W/m^2 enter ToA, 102 W/m^2 are reflected by the albedo, leaving a net 239 W/m^2 entering ToA. 78 W/m^2 are absorbed by the atmosphere leaving 161 W/m^2 for the surface. To maintain the energy balance and steady temperature 160 W/m^2 rises from the surface (0.9 residual in ground) as 17 W/m^2 convection, 80 W/m^2 latent and 63 W/m^2 LWIR (S-B BB 183 K, -90 C or emissivity = .16) = 160 W/m^2. All of the graphic’s power fluxes are now present and accounted for. The remaining 333 W/m^2 are the spontaneous creation of an inappropriate application of the S-B BB equation violating conservation of energy.
But let’s press on.
The 333 W/m^2 upwelling/downwelling constitutes a 100% efficient perpetual energy loop violating thermodynamics. There is no net energy left at the surface to warm the earth and there is no net energy left in the troposphere to impact radiative balance at ToA.
The 333 W/m^2, 97% of ISR, upwells into the troposphere where it is allegedly absorbed/trapped/blocked by a miniscule 0.04% of the atmosphere. That’s a significant heat load for such a tiny share of atmospheric molecules and they should all be hotter than two dollar pistols.
Except they aren’t.
The troposphere is cold, -40 C at 30,000 ft, 9 km, < -60 C at ToA. Depending on how one models the troposphere, average or layered from surface to ToA, the S-B BB equation for the tropospheric temperatures ranges from 150 to 250 W/m^2, a considerable shortfall from 333.
(99% of the atmosphere is below 32 km where energy moves by convection/conduction/latent/radiation & where ideal S-B does not apply. Above 32 km the low molecular density does not allow for convection/conduction/latent and energy moves by S-B ideal radiation et. al.)
But wait!
The GHGs reradiate in all directions not just back to the surface. Say a statistical 33% makes it back to the surface that means 50 to 80 W/m^2. A longer way away from 333.
But wait!
Because the troposphere is not ideal the S-B equation must consider emissivity. Nasif Nahle suggests CO2 emissivity could be around 0.1 or 5 to 8 W/m^2 re-radiated back to the surface. Light years from 333.
But wait!
All of the above really doesn’t even matter since there is no net connection or influence between the 333 W/m^2 thermodynamically impossible loop and the radiative balance at ToA. Just erase this loop from the graphic and nothing else about the balance changes.
BTW 7 of the 8 reanalyzed (i.e. water board the data till it gives up the right answer) data sets/models show more power flux leaving OLR than entering ASR ToA or atmospheric cooling. Trenberth was not happy. Obviously, those seven data sets/models have it completely wrong because there can’t possibly be any flaw in the GHE theory.
The GHE greenhouse analogy not only doesn’t apply to the atmosphere, it doesn’t even apply to warming a real greenhouse. (“How Global Warming was Discovered” Spencer Weart) It’s the physical barrier of walls, glass, plastic that traps convective heat, not some kind of handwavium glassy transparent radiative thermal diode.
The surface of the earth is warm for the same reason a heated house is warm in the winter: Q = U * A * dT, the energy flow/heat resisting blanket of the insulated walls. The composite thermal conductivity of that paper thin atmosphere, conduction, convection, latent, LWIR, resists the flow of energy, i.e. heat, from surface to ToA and that requires a temperature differential, 213 K ToA and 288 K surface = 75 C.
The flow through a fluid heat exchanger requires a pressure drop. A voltage differential is needed to push current through a resistor. Same for the atmospheric blanket. A blanket works by Q = U * A * dT, not S-B BB. The atmosphere is just a basic HVAC system boundary analysis.
Open for rebuttal. If you can explain how this upwelling/downwelling/”back” radiation actually works be certain to copy Jennifer Marohasy as she has posted a challenge for such an explanation.

urederra
Reply to  Nicholas Schroeder
December 11, 2016 6:16 pm

The flow through a fluid heat exchanger requires a pressure drop. A voltage differential is needed to push current through a resistor. Same for the atmospheric blanket. A blanket works by Q = U * A * dT,

How does the blanket work on Venus?
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/05/08/venus-envy/
Does the equation fit with Venus temperature vs height data? I am curious.

Reply to  urederra
December 11, 2016 7:53 pm

The analogy is false, so requires no response. The GHE does not work like a thermal ‘blanket’ which impedes convection. It impedes thermal,radiative cooling, an altogether different physical proposition.
Separately, themwhole Venus gravitational potential argument is wrong from first principles. Too boring to rehash gain here, For you, consider the definition of ‘work’ energy and the whole BS skydragon idea automatically’fails. Please grok simple basic physics ideas.

Reply to  urederra
December 11, 2016 8:45 pm

0.04% of the atmosphere do exactly SQUAT!!

StephanF
Reply to  urederra
December 11, 2016 9:51 pm

Wasn’t the Venus temperature explained in a past post here on WUWT? I recollect, that it had to do with the much higher atmospheric density (compared to earth), the much higher pressure and the barometric height formula. As I understand it, at some height in the Venus atmosphere there is a radiation balance between incoming solar radiation and outgoing thermal radiation; it is where the atmosphere becomes optically thick (looking from outer space). The atmospheric layer at that height has some equilibrium temperature but from there down to the Venus surface the atmosphere will heat up substantially, one could calculate this with the atmospheric height formula under the assumption of an adiabatic atmosphere, for example. But this is not my field of expertise…

Reply to  urederra
December 11, 2016 9:54 pm

NS, wrong. Boy, you do not understand the GHE. Really do not. Making the easily discredited concentration argument misconception just proves my point about NOT providing warmunists stupid counter ammunition, as you just did. Again. Either learn the basics, or get off the front lines.
Please. For our sake. You are the logical equivalent of an enemy Daesh suicide bomb. Not helpful. And a different reply to your exact comment posted on a previous thread. You think our memory is shot, also?

Reply to  urederra
December 12, 2016 7:00 am

Nicholas Schroeder,
0.04% concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is even enough that every IR ray – being radiated from the surface – will hit one CO2 (or another GHG) molecule after 20 to 100 Meters, one wise man told me.
And then the game starts: The molecule is “heated up”, and giving away the heat by contact to another atmospheric molecule or radiating in a random direction, which is half up or half down (in distinct angles). That IR ray is hitting another molecule, heating it up as well, and so on.
If an O2 or a N2 molecule is heated up by contact it will eventually contact a CO2 or a H2O molecule which radiates again in a random direction. As the atmosphere gets thinner towards top of atmosphere, there is more and more space between the molecules, so the IR rays can pass a longer distance without disturbance, finally radiating into the space.
If the concentration of GHG molecules is higher, then the ping-pong game lasts a bit longer, means a stronger delay.
This is the story, as I as a layman unterstands it.

Trick
Reply to  urederra
December 12, 2016 1:00 pm

Nicholas 2:29 pm – “Open for rebuttal.”
Good for you Nicholas. There is plenty to rebut, you only need to follow your own source. My rebuttal is not original, entirely from the source you mention.
“There is no consideration of the elliptical orbit (perihelion = 1,416 W/m^2 to aphelion = 1,323 W/m^2)”
Incorrect, your 1368 considers the avg.d orbital parameters.
“There is no consideration of…day or night or seasons”
Incorrect, the 1368 is from observations 24/7/365. All seasons, day and night, from ~4 annual periods.
“upwelling of 396 W/m^2 which has two parts: 63 W/m^2 and 333 W/m^2”
Incorrect, there is only one part, total 396 radiated from the near surface atm. global Tmedian of about 289K for the observation period in TFK09.
“The 396 W/m^2 is determined by inserting 16 C or 279K in the S-B BB equation.”
Incorrect, the 396 comes from the energy balance at the surface Tmedian about 289K considering measured global atm. emissivity ~0.8 over the period observed.
“This result produces 55 W/m^2 of power flux more than ISR entering ToA, an obvious violation of conservation of energy created out of nothing.”
Incorrect, the surface balances per 1LOT higher than just TOA SW ASR in TFK09 to include the atm. hemispherical LW glow incident on L&O surface in addition to the ASR, again, avg.d over the orbit and ~4 annual periods.
“The remaining 333 W/m^2 are the spontaneous creation of an inappropriate application of the S-B BB equation violating conservation of energy.”
Incorrect, the 333 is the all sky emission to surface as in TFK09 as you write 78+17+80+158=333. All in balance except for the 0.9 absorbed over the 4+ annual periods observed.
“The 333 W/m^2 upwelling/downwelling constitutes a 100% efficient perpetual energy loop violating thermodynamics.”
This is steady state, as such is not a violation of thermodynamics. Process is not 100% efficient, the sun is needed burning a fuel to keep it all going.
“The 333 W/m^2, 97% of ISR, upwells into the troposphere where it is allegedly absorbed/trapped/blocked by a miniscule 0.04% of the atmosphere.”
Hardly. The 396 radiated is absorbed/transmitted/reflected by the entire atm. depth, all its constituents in ~steady state for the period observed.
“The GHGs reradiate in all directions ”
So does the balance of the atm., in all 333 all sky emission to surface over a hemisphere of directions not just the much smaller solar diameter.
“Nasif Nahle suggests”
A suggestion by anyone is not a proper observation with a radiometer/thermometer as in TFK09.
“Just erase this loop from the graphic and nothing else about the balance changes.”
Erase up/down drafts? Erase evaporation? There sure are changes.
“It’s the physical barrier of walls, glass, plastic that traps convective heat”
No convection escapes to space from earth, barely makes it above the tropopause, you know, like a greenhouse.
“copy Jennifer Marohasy as she has posted a challenge for such an explanation.”
I’ll leave that to Nicholas once you understand your own source, send her a copy of TFK09, Stephens 2012, include about 100 similar Earth energy balance papers over the years.

tony mcleod
Reply to  urederra
December 14, 2016 4:56 am

I might disagree with you ristvan on some issues, but boy I admire your patience.

David LM
December 11, 2016 2:56 pm

“It has been discussed many times on this site, and I think it is right, that the feedback from water vapour is negative. That is, any additional heating by extra CO2 causes more evaporation, which blocks the sun & reduces the energy input.”
But even if that’s not true, the additional water vapour in the atmosphere can only get there by the phase change process known as evaporation. Evaporation has the effect of cooling the surface, so as a CO2 GHE response evaporation will exchange sensible heat for latent heat. IOW, energy levels in the atmosphere are increasing faster than sensible heat measurements indicate.
So water vapour provides a negative feedback as far as humans are concerned WRT observed instrumental temperature, even if related cloud feedbacks have a 0 effect on global albedo,

Reply to  David LM
December 12, 2016 12:04 am

water vapour cools by day, because of clouds blocking sunlight, and warms by night as clouds insulate radiation that might escape to space and so on. That’s why deserts are hot by day and cold by night.
There is no easy answer as to what the net effect is, especially since at least one WUWT contributor has shown that tropical clouds and storms are correlated with the time of day.

December 11, 2016 2:56 pm

I could say a lot and have at CoSy.com , but I’ll just note that any computations of temperature at the bottoms of atmospheres versus their tops which does not account for the rather straightforwardly calculable difference in gravitational energy is incomplete .
I strongly dislike the phrase “effective black body temperature” because it contributes to the mistaken notion that a gray , ie : flat spectrum , body no matter how dark or light comes to the same temperature . Either a term like “colored body” or “radiative balance” temperature would be much closer to the physical reality being described . It is the correlations of the spectra of the body with its radiant sources an sinks and the use of a scalar “emissivity” as opposed to actual computations between the relevant spectra leads to much confusion .
As someone who has been involved in satellites , it would be nice to get a confirmation that a gray painted object in our orbit comes to a temperature of about 279 , about 5c not255K . I’ve seen that the design temperature for instrument packages on at least 1 satellite system matches this gray body calculation and it should be ubiquitous including calculating the energy budget for the space station .

Reply to  Bob Armstrong
December 11, 2016 2:58 pm

Oops , that should be ” … because it contributes to the mistaken notion that a gray , ie : flat spectrum , body no matter how dark or light don’t come to the same temperature .”

Reply to  jmorpuss
December 12, 2016 7:13 am

I think Ritchie’s far too little remembered 1830’s experiment which formed the basis for Kirchhoff’s and Stewart’s formalizations by mid century and was a common classroom demonstration for more than a century will suffice .
The computations of equilibrium temperatures for arbitrary source and object spectra in an APL are on my http://CoSy.com .
I’m not sure what the import of your references are ?

tabnumlock
December 11, 2016 3:41 pm

The experiment has been done. Either increased CO2 causes no significant warming or fossil fuels just prevented another LIA.

ferdberple
December 11, 2016 3:50 pm

To me the following part of the above article says it all. Since radiation varies as the 4th power of temperature according to SB, if the author is correct in their interpretation of the IPP and Arrhenius, then the IPCC and Arrhenius would appear to be wrong.
====================
from original post:
As noted above, according to the IPCC, the increase in radiative power per square meter, ΔRadCO2, from an increase in the concentration of CO2, can be determined as:
ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C/Co)
Thus,
ln (C/Co) = ΔRadCO2 / 5.35
Substituting ΔRadCO2 / 5.35 for ln (C/Co) in the Arrhenius formulation for calculation for change of temperature results in,
ΔTArr = 1.8 × S × 1.44 × ln (C/Co) = S × 1.44 × ΔRadCO2 / 5.35
which means that ΔTArr is directly proportional to changes heating, ΔRadCO2.
As noted above, based upon the basic principles of radiative heating,
ΔTCO2 = To × [(1 + ΔRadCO2 / RUo)1/4– 1]
which means that instead of being directly proportional to changes heating, ΔRadCO2, as Arrhenius assumes, ΔTCO2 is proportional to the fourth root of changes in heating, ΔRadCO21/4. Arrhenius’ conjecture is clearly not founded on the principles of physics.
The Arrhenius formulation and IPCC approach cannot possibly be correct.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  ferdberple
December 11, 2016 4:08 pm

“ΔRadCO2, as Arrhenius assumes, ΔTCO2 is proportional to the fourth root of changes in heating, ΔRadCO21/4. Arrhenius’ conjecture is clearly not founded on the principles of physics.”
Wrong. It is proportional to the change in the fourth root of heating. And in terms of arithmetic, as I said above, it makes no difference. Using his numbers:
ΔTLCO2 = TLo × [(1 + Eff × ΔRadCO2 / RULo)1/4– 1]
ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × [(1 + .55 × 1.3 / 360)1/4– 1] = 0.14oF
The last is wrong. It should be = 0.2519988 °F
And if you linearise,
ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × 1/4 × .55 × 1.3 / 360 = 0.2521865 °F

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 7:59 am

“Which is nearly 4 times greater than”
No, linearisation means differentiating, which brings in the factor of 1/4.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 13, 2016 8:57 am

justforumaccesscom December 13, 2016 at 5:41 am
I am having difficulty replying in the correct order to the comments, but in response to Mr. Stokes, let me say,
You don’t differentiate to linearize.

You’re linearizing (1+x)^n, using a Taylor series expansion the linear terms are 1+nx……..
Therefore Nick is right, the linearization of:
ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × [(1 + .55 × 1.3 / 360)^1/4– 1] is
ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × [1+1/4*0.55*1.3/360 – 1]
ΔTLCO2 = 507.9 × [1/4*0.55*1.3/360]

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 13, 2016 6:52 pm

It’s depressing to be arguing about school calculus in the thread that is supposed to demonstrate that “The IPCC is wrong!”.
And so we get this
“which means that instead of being directly proportional to changes heating, ΔRadCO2, as Arrhenius assumes, ΔTCO2 is proportional to the fourth root of changes in heating, ΔRadCO21/4. Arrhenius’ conjecture is clearly not founded on the principles of physics.”
Arrhenius, who did win a Nobel Prize in chemistry, is proved all wrong by someone who can’t linearise a simple power. In fact, as I showed, the fourth root issue is numerically irrelevant, as the expression is easily replaced by its linear equivalent. But if not, then it’s no use fussing at this stage. The fourth power law applies to local temperatures, not averages. And here it is being applied to linear global averages. If the expression involving averages can’t be linearised, then the averaging was certainly the wrong thing to do. But it can.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 14, 2016 5:07 am

justforumaccesscom December 13, 2016 at 5:19 pm
The correct expression is
ΔTLCO2 = TLo × [(1 + Eff × ΔRadCO2 / RULo)1/4– 1]
As noted above, based upon the basic principles of radiative heating,
ΔTCO2 = To × [(1 + ΔRadCO2 / RUo)1/4– 1] = 0.25

No this is based on the principles of radiative cooling!
It gives the change in temperature by radiative cooling.
When ΔRadCO2 / RUo is small the linear form is a good approximation as Nick and I have pointed out.
The principle of radiative heating is the same as other forms of heating, namely:
ΔQ=C.ΔT
therefore ΔT=ΔQ/C
So
ΔTArr = S × 1.44 × ΔRadCO2 / 5.35
is the correct form of the equation for radiative heating.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 14, 2016 9:21 am

Nick Stokes December 13, 2016 at 6:52 pm
It’s depressing to be arguing about school calculus in the thread that is supposed to demonstrate that “The IPCC is wrong!”.
And so we get this
“which means that instead of being directly proportional to changes heating, ΔRadCO2, as Arrhenius assumes, ΔTCO2 is proportional to the fourth root of changes in heating, ΔRadCO21/4. Arrhenius’ conjecture is clearly not founded on the principles of physics.”

Especially when he writes an equation for radiative heat loss from a blackbody and then inverts the equation and misinterprets it!
Arrhenius, who did win a Nobel Prize in chemistry,
Yes interestingly he got it for his idea that when you dissolved an ionic solid such as sodium chloride in water it dissociated into ions without any electric current (contrary to Faraday’s idea that it was the electrical current that caused the dissociation). This was criticized at the time and he got a bare pass for his PhD as a result, of course he was right and received the Nobel. If not for the support of van’t Hoff and Ostwald he probably wouldn’t have made it! I used to tell my grad students that story to encourage them when they were going through tough times with their thesis.

Pop Piasa
December 11, 2016 3:52 pm

This has been one of the more intensely educational threads for me, thanks to all who critically contributed.

Reply to  Pop Piasa
December 11, 2016 8:59 pm

Very good, PP. Why WUWT is one of my daily top visits. I always hope to learn something.

son of mulder
December 11, 2016 3:53 pm

Evaporative Power, Land 13 to 13 ie no change between 1880 and 2002. Does this mean that the amount of rain hasn’t increased, which I thought was meant to happen with AGW?

December 11, 2016 5:17 pm

More importantly this calculation ignores the very real and complex effects of CO2 band saturation,

I think that’s what causes the outgoing energy to decrease significantly when rel humidity near 100% as this data showscomment image
And we should compare cs values, I use the change is surface energy at each surface station, and divide the change in temp.
Here https://micro6500blog.wordpress.com/2016/05/18/measuring-surface-climate-sensitivity/
I think all of the extratropics is less than 0.02F/W/m^2

StephanF
Reply to  micro6500
December 11, 2016 10:00 pm

Where is the x-axis? It is probably time…

Reply to  StephanF
December 12, 2016 6:23 am

Yes, period of about 3 days, time is in 10 min intervals and excel refuses to make a useful grid. I got something close, but need to add all of my notes back in.

Fred Harwood
December 11, 2016 5:22 pm

I very much hope that a reprise or summary of this article will be shown.

December 11, 2016 6:24 pm

I think WUWT should follow the practice of scientific journals and require authors to use SI units consistently. Otherwise they just make bungles that waste their time and everyone else’s. A classic case was here. And this article is another.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 11:34 am

I think that is a very reasonable suggestion, the last time I saw temperature expressed in Rankine in serious publication was in my Grandfather “Cyclopedia of Engineering”, published in 1912. I’ll admit placing a Fahrenheit conversion in parenthesis after the calculations have concluded may help the metricaly impaired, that’s as far as it should go.

Kent
December 11, 2016 6:30 pm

The purpose of the IPCC is to demonstrate how increases in [CO2] cause AGW. Their models, therefore, have to show an increase an increase in temperature as [CO2] rises. Hence, any government funded research on climate change had better show how CO2 drives temperature increase, or that funding is terminated. The IPCC isn’t interested in any other model or theory that says otherwise. People like Mr. Van Brunt and me are a bunch of rubs clueless about what the wizards of smart say about the impending global catastrophe. What Mr. Van Brunt explains is spot on, and is unfortunately irrelevant to the global warming community.

Reply to  Kent
December 11, 2016 7:46 pm

“What Mr. Van Brunt explains is spot on”
Not even the arithmetic is right.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 10:56 am

Like most folks here I am not in a position to challenge the basic physics/math as applied in the paper, although I think I follow the reasoning. Those of you who can make corrections/suggestions can help us all understand whether or not the conclusions are justified. I would like to see the issues clearly identified (a couple were), the calculations corrected as necessary, a response from the author, and a bottom line regarding if changes obviate the entire paper, only parts of the analysis, or alter the conclusions – especially the statements like “IPCC is wrong”. The measurement scales don’t bother me. I have used all but Rankine and can make easy conversions.

Reply to  Kent
December 12, 2016 12:11 am

The purpose of the IPCC is to demonstrate how increases in [CO2] cause AGW.
Er no. The purpose of the IPCC is, ostensibly, to examine the level of, and the political and global implications of, man made global warming, caused by CO2 emissions.
Examining whether CO2 causes global warning at all, is ultra vires of its remit.
That thisis its remit, is deeply suspicious in the first place.

December 11, 2016 6:38 pm

The critical equation of –
ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C/Co) (note below)
infers that a temperature change could be caused by an increase in atmospheric CO2 of 1 molecule to 2 molecules; or of C02 from 280 to 560 ppm. Or any other doublings.
The inference here is that 1 or 2 molecules alone could not possibly explain the large energy involved in an alleged atmospheric temperature change of 1 absolute degree, K. We are not talking about fission or fusion energies.
This raises the question of how many molecules of CO2 are needed to create an effect on the atmosphere.
In searching for an answer, I note that the fundamental physical property, mass, does not seem to appear in mathematical derivations like those given above by William Van Brunt.
The mass of the atmosphere is about 5.1×10^18 kg. The mass of atmospheric CO2 is about 3 x 10^15 kg, a ratio of 6 x 10^-4 by mass. The question I ask here is whether that relatively small part of the atmosphere that is CO2 has the inherent capacity to be involved in the energy changes attributed to it.
(note below – some derivations might restrict the scope of CO2 to hundreds of ppm, IIRC).
Geoff

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 11, 2016 6:49 pm

Goeff,
“The question I ask here is whether that relatively small part of the atmosphere”
The proper answer is to look carefully at the science. It’s been around since Fourier.
But failing that, think about clouds. They don’t have much more mass than CO2. But they radically change the surface temperature. Warmer at night, cooler by day.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 6:58 pm

But Nick,
The proposition is that CO2 molecular energy changes in the process. How much energy per molecule is involved? Is that quantity within known physical limits? What is it, in numbers?
Geoff

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 7:38 pm

But failing that, think about clouds. They don’t have much more mass than CO2. But they radically change the surface temperature. Warmer at night, cooler by day.

This is different Nick, clouds act as an optical shutter blocking radiation transfer, adding co2 doesn’t block radiation.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 7:40 pm

Geoff,
No, that is not a relevant figure, because of local thermodynamic equilibrium. However much a CO2 molecule absorbs, it is transferred to other molecules (of all kinds) by collision before anything else can happen. The GHG molecules don’t store any of that energy.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 7:45 pm

“adding co2 doesn’t block radiation”
Yes it does. It’s true that clouds scatter as well as block. But the CO2 molecule absorbs, and blocks. The heat becomes part of the background temp that supports emission.
Anyway, if there is a mass issue, it’s the same. A small amount of H2O makes a big difference.

siamiam
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 8:58 pm

NS” They don’t have much more mass than CO2.”
CO2 doesn’t have phase changes. False comparison.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 11, 2016 9:07 pm

“CO2 doesn’t have phase changes.”
Water droplets scatter SW, absorb IR. CO2 absorbs IR. Both are the effects of a very small fraction of total mass of air.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 12:09 am

Nick,
You concede that CO2 becomes more energetic when interacting suitably with IR.
The energy change per molecule is relevant in the sense that too few molecules at this excitation energy will not, in gross, sum to enough energy to affect the atmosphere to the alleged extent, on its release.
Geoff

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 12:13 am

clouds act as an optical shutter blocking radiation transfer, adding CO2 doesn’t block radiation
Effectively in the IR AIUI spectrum I think that is exactly what it does. It’s a sort of IR ‘haze’..

Reply to  Leo Smith
December 12, 2016 4:47 am

Effectively in the IR AIUI spectrum I think that is exactly what it does. It’s a sort of IR ‘haze’..

The observational data examplecomment image

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 12:20 am

Geoff,
“sum to enough energy to affect the atmosphere to the alleged extent, on its release”
No, again you’re missing the point of local thermodynamic equilibrium. CO2 molecules absorb whatever they absorb. The fastest thing that then happens is molecular collision. That absorbed energy is transferred to other mols, mainly N2. It becomes part of the local temperature. It isn’t in any way stored on GHGs. They don’t sum energy.
The GHGs also emit. They would emit at that air temperature, whatever the incoming radiation was. The emission is not related to the history of absorption, except insofar as that delivered heat to maintain the temperature of the whole gas.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 8:40 am

Geoff Sherrington December 11, 2016 at 6:58 pm
But Nick,
The proposition is that CO2 molecular energy changes in the process. How much energy per molecule is involved? Is that quantity within known physical limits? What is it, in numbers?

A CO2 molecule absorbing a 667cm^-1 photon gains 1.325×10^20 J which is typically large wrt thermal energy at 300K (only about 3% of molecules in a Boltzmann distribution at 15ºC will have that much kinetic energy).

Owen Suppes
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 12:43 pm

No, Co2 does not block. Co2 absorbs and re-radiates almost instantaneously. There is a slight delay as the molecule charges. As that delay exists, not all IR can encounters can be adsorbed. As well, as you know Co2 may emit a photon (random directional). Excuse the semantics.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Owen Suppes December 12, 2016 at 12:43 pm
No, Co2 does not block. Co2 absorbs and re-radiates almost instantaneously. There is a slight delay as the molecule charges. As that delay exists, not all IR can encounters can be adsorbed. As well, as you know Co2 may emit a photon (random directional). Excuse the semantics.

Any re-radiation by CO2 is far from instantaneous, it takes millisecs.

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 11, 2016 8:10 pm

GS, that math (~5.35*ln(csubt/csub0) is correct. Experimentally verified. So the answer to yorur question is yes, a trace gas can have that effect. Basic physics. Now, using that same physics, a doubling of CO2 by itself absent feedbacks will cause ~1.2C increase in temperature. No C in CAGW. So, the whole shebange depends on positive feedbacks. And, all the evidence says they are not as positive as climate models project, by about half. So no C in CAGW. And only a little gw.

Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 8:31 pm

Now, using that same physics, a doubling of CO2 by itself absent feedbacks will cause ~1.2C increase in temperature

You’d would get that as an average radiative Flux during the day, but at night cooling will be greater than 2 or 3F/hour until air temps near dew points temperature, then cooling drops to about 1/2F to 1F/ hour till sunrise, where radiation goes positive. Because it is a temperature effect, any accumulated energy is lost before the air temp reaches dew point temperature.

siamiam
Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 9:08 pm

ristvan writes ~5.35*In[…] is correct. Experimentally verified.
I’ve never found a reference for either. Help anyone?

Reply to  ristvan
December 11, 2016 11:14 pm

Ristvan,
Appreciate your ‘stock’ sort of answers, but I can assure you I am not acting out of ignorance as a retired spectroscopist/chemist.
Please answer the fundamental question I posed, how many CO2 molecules are enough?
You must accept that 2 is too small and you must think that 400 ppm concentration is enough.
Where is the transition from too few to just enough?
I’m not really buying the proposition that CO2 merely acts by slowing the warming of what is below. I’ve been into the basic heat transfer equations enough to see that flow depends in part on relative masses when analysed by some paths.
The 5.35ln equation is not derived fundamentally, it is calibrated using measured temperatures in real atmospheres with altitude and a few assumptions about radiation physics, so it carried the risk of circularity of argument. The assumptions are seldom visited, the equation is a working approximation only and it could do with some expert discussion about the assumptions.
Do you have a view about why there are so few lab experiments using real air and differing CO2 irradiated by IR? I can design some doozies that could be done in a facility like CERN has for its seeding experiments.

siamiam
Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 11, 2016 8:53 pm

Spot on question.

Reply to  siamiam
December 11, 2016 10:03 pm

Siamiam, stop being intellectually lazy and get thee to google. As to ~1.2C CO2 doubling absent feedbacks, maybe read a bit of Prof. Lindzen’s work. Else remain pathetically ignorant. Disregards.

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 11, 2016 9:20 pm

GS, your remarks evidence a stunning display of basic GHE ignorance. Sorry, but exactly the ‘deplorable’ skeptic “nonsense” I rail against as a true deplorable. You mean well, but do only harm by feeding warmunists easily disprovable ‘physics’ facts. Once you comprehend how the GHE actually works, you will realize how incredibly ignorant your relative mass comment is. Homework: for standard composition air density near surface (lets specify 1.225 kg/m^3 standard surface density) what is the no feedbacks doubling of CO2 delta T? You are free to use google and other aids, only have to show your calculations (so we can grade them), not just the final result.

Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 12:23 am

Ristvan,
To answer the Delta T is effectively zero if there are too few CO2 molecules to make a measurable difference.
If there is an overabundance of CO2 molecules, then we all know the classical equations with their assumptions.
When you can demonstrate the quantitative adequate concentration of CO2, you might start to be getting into a position to criticise, hopefully with proper tone.
Geoff

michel
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 12:25 am

ristvan – thanks for you patient and illuminating contributions to this thread. Very clear, very straightforward, very helpful. It must have been pretty tedious, but probably more have benefited and appreciated it than have said so explicitly. Thanks. Do not get discouraged, keep on doing it. It is doing some good.

Bob Boder
Reply to  ristvan
December 12, 2016 9:09 am

Rud
What is the temperature rise from 0 PPM to 1 PPM? Is that one double, infinite doublings or something in between. What would be the near surface temp all things being “equal” be at 1 PPM?

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 12, 2016 8:48 am

Geoff Sherrington December 11, 2016 at 6:38 pm
The critical equation of –
ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C/Co) (note below)
infers that a temperature change could be caused by an increase in atmospheric CO2 of 1 molecule to 2 molecules; or of C02 from 280 to 560 ppm. Or any other doublings.

No, because at such low concentrations the response is linear, at the concentrations we are at now it’s approximated by log at still higher concentrations it will asymptote to a square root dependence.

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 12, 2016 3:31 pm

Coming into this with just a basic but strong physics background as an APL programmer and implementer capable of implementing even maps over spheres in an expression or two , and being very impressed by Lavoisier’s transformation of alchemy to quantitative chemistry by bringing his accounting background into it , I approach the problem as one of constructing and energy “audit trail” from the Sun to our surface .
A half dozen lines are sufficient to get from the Sun’s surface temperature and the disk of the celestial sphere it subtends to the approximately 279 +- 2.3 from peri- to ap-helion of a gray ball in our orbit . Another couple of lines ( one for the Planck function ) gives the equilibrium temperature for a ball with any given absorptivity=emissivity spectrum . That appears crudely estimated to be around 255 .
Without any other source of energy , the Divergence Theorem demands that that is the mean for the interior also . In all these years I have never seen either equation nor experiment to demonstrate how an optical , ie : electromagnetic , effect can circumvent this most fundamental and intuitive bit of mathematics , in the case of Earth amounting to about 33K , for Venus , 400 .
As you correctly point out , mass and the gravitational energy associated with it is missing from the equations .
Until I see a quantitative derivation of those macro effects , ie : the next expression to add to the handful calculating the radiative equilibrium temperature of an arbitrarily colored ball , which quantitatively explains that 3% ( 125% in the case of Venus ) difference from the top to bottom of our atmosphere , I have little interest in purported explanations for the order of magnitude smaller fluctuations this whole brouhaha has been about .
Explanations which do not directly extend that experimentally testable computational audit trail from the temperature of a radiantly heated arbitrarily colored ball to its interior have never and will never complete our understanding .

Frank
Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
December 12, 2016 5:53 pm

Geoff: One way to make the atmosphere more tangible is to Imagine the atmosphere condensing to a liquid with the same density as water. The 14.6 psi of atmosphere has the same mass as a layer of water 10 m thick. (The math is easy.) If each gas forms a separate layer, the resulting layer of pure CO2 would be 4 mm thick, a little thinner than a typical pane of glass. Can a layer 4 mm thick influence radiative heating and cooling? Of course. I presume you are familiar with how a pane of glass in a car can admit visible light, but not allow thermal infrared to escape. Alternatively think about the thin layer of PABA molecules that sun block deposits on your skin. Even a few um of material can absorb a significant amount of radiation.
When a liquid evaporates to make a gas at standard temperature on pressure, it typically expands roughly 1000-fold; meaning that molecules that were once touching each other in the liquid state are now about 10 molecular diameters apart in all three directions the gas phase. When our hypothetical layer of liquid atmosphere 10 meters thick on the Earth evaporates, the molecules can only move in one direction (up), so the 10 m layer of liquid becomes 10 kilometers tall. Around 5 km, you are above about 50% of the weight of the atmosphere, so the pressure is 0.5 atm and the molecules are 50% further apart. By 10 km, you are above 75% of the atmosphere, and so on.
ΔRadCO2 = 5.35 × ln (C/Co) is not a law. It is an approximation that is appropriate for our atmosphere when CO2 is between 40 and 4000 ppm.

willhaas
December 11, 2016 7:18 pm

I believe that this article is overly optimistic that CO2 is an important factor in global warming. The article neglects the fact that a doubling of CO2 will slightly lower the dry lapse ratein the tropospere which is a cooling effect that will wipe out most of any radiametric warming that more CO2 might cause. One researcher found such reduces the warming effects of CO2 by more than a factor of 20.
H2O, besides being the primary greenhouse gas is a major coolant in the Earth’s atmosphere moving heat energy from the Earth’s surface which for the most part involves some sort of H2O, to where clouds form. According to some energy balance models, more heat eneegy is moved by H2O via the heat of vaporization then by both convection and LWIR absorption band radiation combined. The wet lapse rate is significantly less than the dry lapse rate which is further evidence of H2O’s over all cooling effects. The H2O feedback also has to be negative for the Earth’s climate to have been stable enough for life to evolve. More H2O in the atmosphere has a net cooling effect.
A good absorber is also a good radiator so CO2 does not really warm because of IR absorption but rather defuses the radiation. In the troposphere the pressure is such that conduction and convection are the primary means of heat energy transport, dwarfing the effects of LWIR absroption band radiation.
The radiametric greenhouse effect has yet to be observed on Earth, Venus, nor anywhere in the solar system. Without the radiametric greenhouse effect the AGW conjecture is fiction.

Reply to  willhaas
December 12, 2016 7:42 am

willhaas,
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/12/11/the-ipcc-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2368813
This is what I stated above:
“0.04% concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is even enough that every IR ray – being radiated from the surface – will hit one CO2 (or another GHG) molecule after 20 to 100 Meters, one wise man told me.
And then the game starts: The molecule is “heated up”, and giving away the heat by contact to another atmospheric molecule or radiating in a random direction, which is half up or half down (in distinct angles). That IR ray is hitting another molecule, heating it up as well, and so on.
If an O2 or a N2 molecule is heated up by contact it will eventually contact a CO2 or a H2O molecule which radiates again in a random direction. As the atmosphere gets thinner towards top of atmosphere, there is more and more space between the molecules, so the IR rays can pass a longer distance without disturbance, finally radiating into the space.
If the concentration of GHG molecules is higher, then the ping-pong game lasts a bit longer, means a stronger delay.
This is the story, as I as a layman unterstands it.”
You wrote:
“A good absorber is also a good radiator so CO2 does not really warm because of IR absorption but rather defuses the radiation. ”
>>>Being a good radiator is exactly the property of a GHG molecule, redirecting the IR radiation in a random direction, therefore delaying the heat transport which otherwise would go directly out into space.
“In the troposphere the pressure is such that conduction and convection are the primary means of heat energy transport, dwarfing the effects of LWIR absroption band radiation.”
>>>The difference between radiation and conduction or convection is that radiation is happening with light speed, so that even with lots of ping-pong between the various molecules the energy is transported from surface to TOA within a fraction of a second or few seconds. So conduction (contact w/other molecules) and convection (transport of heat through moving air masses) cannot be the primary means of heat transport.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Johannes Herbst
December 12, 2016 8:29 am

“will hit one CO2 (or another GHG) molecule after 20”
Well, kinda. It’s very frequency dependent, that’s only true for a band. And the notion of hitting a molecule isn’t right; the IR wavelength is roughly a million times longer than the molecule. But rather remarkably, the wave can still transfer energy to the CO2.
” radiating in a random direction”
Mainly it transfers energy by collision (I believe about 5% of time it reradiates before that happens). What I’ve been earbashing Geoff about is that the event is then over. The energy just goes into background heat. GHGs do radiate, as a function of that temperature. But they would anyway. The only connection between the absorption and emission is that absorption supplies the energy needed to replace the emitted energy. One aspect of this thermalising is that the frequencies emitted are independent of those absorbed, although linked through Kirchoff’s Law, which says that frequencies most absorbed are also most frequently emitted.
” then the ping-pong game lasts a bit longer, means a stronger delay”
What matters isn’t really delay – as you say, it’s very fast. The main thing is that the radiating level is higher, and so colder. That’s where the frequency issue is important. Radiation at GHG-influenced frequencies is reduced (colder), so that from other frequencies must increase, since total IR emission has to match solar. The only way that can happen is if their origin regions (eg surface) get warmer. And since otherwise heat is retained, they do get warmer until balance is restored.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 9:03 am

the IR wavelength is roughly a million times longer than the molecule. But rather remarkably, the wave can still transfer energy to the CO2.

About 11,000 x for a qtr wave antenna. Something is wrong, not remarkable. EM waves don’t efficiently couple with the wavelength and antenna lengths that far apart.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Johannes Herbst
December 12, 2016 10:32 am

Nick
“” radiating in a random direction”
Mainly it transfers energy by collision (I believe about 5% of time it reradiates before that happens). What I’ve been earbashing Geoff about is that the event is then over. The energy just goes into background heat. GHGs do radiate, as a function of that temperature. But they would anyway. The only connection between the absorption and emission is that absorption supplies the energy needed to replace the emitted energy. One aspect of this thermalising is that the frequencies emitted are independent of those absorbed, although linked through Kirchoff’s Law, which says that frequencies most absorbed are also most frequently emitted.”
This is only half of the truth, the reverse also happens.
“” then the ping-pong game lasts a bit longer, means a stronger delay”
What matters isn’t really delay – as you say, it’s very fast. The main thing is that the radiating level is higher, and so colder. That’s where the frequency issue is important. Radiation at GHG-influenced frequencies is reduced (colder), so that from other frequencies must increase, since total IR emission has to match solar. The only way that can happen is if their origin regions (eg surface) get warmer. And since otherwise heat is retained, they do get warmer until balance is restored.”
But this is happening on a sphere, so an increase in height greatly increases surface area limiting effect, plus I have yet to see empirical proof of this function.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Johannes Herbst
December 12, 2016 12:10 pm

” Something is wrong, not remarkable.”
Gas molecules can absorb IR. That has been known since Tyndall about 1860.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 12, 2016 12:42 pm

Gas molecules can absorb IR. That has been known since Tyndall about 1860.

Well clouds of gas molecules can absorb IR photons. But as I mentioned for spectral capture there needs to be an antenna of approximate wavelength. Einstein explained how this is possible with metals, but every example of a light emitting or capturing mechanism I’ve ever read about all involve a charged particle with the freedom to move the right distance to be an antenna for that wavelength. Applies to radio, microwave, ir, visible, and x-ray and gamma. And I passed the FCC commercial license when I was 17, which required knowing all about radio broadcasting.
So this is weird.

willhaas
Reply to  Johannes Herbst
December 12, 2016 7:09 pm

In the troposphere heat transfer by conduction, phase change, and convection diminate over heat transfer by LWIR absorption band radiation. In the 15 micron band, after absorbing a photon, a CO2 molecule will hold onto that energy an average of .2 seconds before radiating it away as long as that molecule does not come in contact with any other molecules.. But at a pressure of one bar during that .2 seconds that same CO2 molecule will interact with other molecules roughly a billion times, sharing heat energy with each interaction. The insulation effects of the atmosphere can be chacterized by a temperature lapse rate. It turns out that the lapse rate as derived from first principals and confirmed by observation is a function of the pressure gradient and the heat capacity of the atmosphere and has nothing to do with the LWIR absorption properties of greenhouse gases. The change in CO2 over the past 30 years has had no measureable effect on the lapse rate and hence no measureable effect on the insulation characteristics of the troposphere.

December 11, 2016 7:31 pm

Dr Tim Ball and Dr Roy Spencer – I’m wondering what your take is on this. As a layman, I am unable to process the formulas, but it sounds very impressive and meticulously argued. How do we make this go viral?

Reply to  Les Segal
December 12, 2016 1:44 pm

LS, Why would we want something to go viral without proper vetting? This site is a good source for vetting, so I would wait for the green light, should it light up. As for Tim Ball, I’m not sure he would be able to contribute as this is not his wheel house, Roy is a much better candidate for illumination, particularly concerning cloud feedbacks

Reply to  Les Segal
December 13, 2016 12:11 am

Les Segal December 11, 2016 at 7:31 pm
This is what Dr Roy Spencer wrote 6 Years ago:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2010/06/faq-271-if-greenhouse-gases-are-such-a-small-part-of-the-atmosphere-how-do-they-change-its-temperature/
“If greenhouse gases are such a small proportion of the atmosphere,” (only 39 out of every 100,000 molecules are CO2), “how can they heat or cool all the rest of the air?”
The answer comes from the “kinetic theory of gases”. In effect, each CO2 molecule is a tiny heater (or air conditioner) depending on whether it is absorbing more infrared photons than it is emitting, or vice versa.
When the radiatively active molecules in the atmosphere — mainly water vapor, CO2, and methane — are heated by infrared radiation, even though they are a very small fraction of the total, they are moving very fast and do not have to travel very far before they collide with other molecules of air…that’s when they transfer part of their thermal energy to another molecule. That transfer is in the form of momentum from the molecule’s mass and its speed.
That molecule then bumps into others, those bump into still more, and on and on ad infinitum.
To give some idea of how fast all this happens, consider:
1) there are 26,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules in 1 cubic meter of air at sea level.
2) at room temperature, each molecule is traveling at a very high speed, averaging 1,000 mph for heavier molecules like nitrogen, over 3,000 mph for the lightest molecule, hydrogen, etc.
3) the average distance a molecule travels before hitting another molecule (called the “mean free path”) is only 0.000067 of a millimeter
So, there are so many molecules traveling so fast, and so close to one another, that the radiatively active molecules almost instantly transfer any extra thermal energy (their velocity is proportional to the square root of their temperature) to other molecules. Or, if they happen to be cooling the air, the absorb extra momentum from the other air molecules.
From the above numbers we can compute that a single nitrogen molecule (air is mostly nitrogen) undergoes over 7 billion collisions every second.
All of this happens on extremely small scales, with gazillions of the radiatively active molecules scattered through a very small volume of air.
It is rather amazing that these relatively few “greenhouse” gases are largely responsible for the temperature structure of the atmosphere. Without them, the atmosphere would have no way of losing the heat energy that it gains from the Earth’s surface in response to solar heating.
Such an atmosphere would eventually become the same temperature throughout its depth, called an “isothermal” atmosphere. All vertical air motions would stop in such an atmosphere, which means there would be no weather either.”
What I didn’t realize until now is that hotter molecules means they are just moving quicker after “being hit” from a IR ray / photon or another molecule. The same is the other way round: emitting an IR or contacting another molecule lowers the speed and cools the molecule.
Another piece in the puzzle.

J.H.
December 11, 2016 8:00 pm

So…… When is the whole thing going to drop outta hyperspace?

December 11, 2016 9:22 pm

I live on the different time zone and therefore my comments always arrive late. But anyway.
1) Essay: “The change in the Average Global Temperature for Land between 1880 and 2002 was 2.6 F”.
Usually the surface temperature includes both the ocean (70%) and the land (30%). The ocean surface temperature has two times greater time constant but the oceans control the surface temperature of the Earth – not the land. IPCC has used the value of 0.85 C degrees (=1.53 F) from 1880 to 2012.
2) Essay: “The Maximum measured and estimated long term Water Vapor Feedback is 1.6 w/m2 per degree Fahrenheit change in Average Global Temperature Dessler (2014).[6]”
The measurement based data of NVAP dataset from 1979 to 2014 shows that the long-term absolute humidity (=absolute amount of water) in the atmosphere is constant. Link, htpp://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/data/timeseries/. The positive feedback of water is an assumption used by IPCC and in all GCMs but it is not true. This feature doubles the warming impacts of other GH gases as admitted by IPCC.
3) Essay: “the IPCC’s formula RF = 5.35 * ln (C/Co) – I mark this as eq. (1) – is the only consensus model I have found”. There is a comment later that “This equation is based on a determination for the optical (IR) opacity of CO2 and the assumption that the most significant and variable GHG, Water Vapor, was constant. This is not a valid assumption. More importantly this calculation ignores the very real and complex effects of CO2 band saturation, which can only be determined accurately using a very sophisticated computer model. “
This eq. (1) is used by IPCC, which is called canonical by Gavin Schmidt, is originally calculated by Myhre et al. and it was published in 1998. It is based on line-by-line computer model, which can be called sophisticated and it does not ignore the water effects. This type calculation is called spectral analysis and it is the only reliable way to calculate the warming effects of GH gases because it takes into account all the interactions between the GH gases including water. But it is not a consensus model. Myhre et al. informs that this formula calculates only the CO2 forcing, which means that the absolute humidity has been kept constant. But is it constant?
There are two other publications on the same issue: Hansen et al. and Shi. They show almost the same results for climate sensitivity (CS) with different mathematical formulas: Myhre et al 3.71, Hansen et al. 3.63 and Shi 3.98 W/m2. But, but Shi reports that he carried out the calculations in the conditions of “fixed relative humidity.” Do you know what it means? It means that actually water doubled the radiative forcing of CO2 in eq. (1).
Radiative forcing is not the warming effect. You have to use the climate sensitivity parameter (CSP), which according to IPCC is 0.5 K/(W/m2). And now you get the CS = 0.5 * 3.7 = 1.85 degrees. CSP value 0.5 means that there is again water feedback (this is openly reported by IPCC) which doubles the warming impact of CO2. IPCC uses twice positive water feedback in order to get the CS = 1.85 C degrees.
I have used the same method as it is used always in the real science to test the correctness of any new published results. I carried out the same calculations in the same way as Myhre et al. utilizing the spectral analysis method. My formula is 3.12 * ln (CO2/280) (compare to Myhre et al. = 5.35 * ln (CO2/280). This means that the climate sensitivity is only 0.6 C degrees, because CSP = 0.27 for constant absolute humidity. The warming impact of CO2 in the present climate is about 0.25 C degrees. The end results: IPCC’s climate model gives four times too much warming for CO2, because they use positive water feedback not only once but twice.
My web page is http://www.climatexam.com. There you find a lot of material about the climate change and everything is based on the published peer-reviewed papers. The potency of CO2 is here: http://www.seipub.org/des/paperInfo.aspx?ID=11043

Bindidon
Reply to  aveollila
December 12, 2016 3:32 am

Many thanks also to aveollila for this very understandable comment!
Even before clicking on your page I was sure to detect lots of finnish there 🙂
But… seipurb.org was a blind-alley.

Reply to  Bindidon
December 12, 2016 6:09 pm

Sorry, I picked up the wrong paper, because there are two papers of mine. This is the correct alley:
http://www.seipub.org/des/paperInfo.aspx?ID=17162

Bindidon
Reply to  Bindidon
December 13, 2016 5:31 am

Problem still unsolved: it is not due to “des/paperInfo.aspx?ID=17162” or whatsoever being wrong.
The server “seipurb.org” itself can’t be found from where I click on the link (Germany).
DNS problem?

December 11, 2016 10:00 pm

Regarding: “In this paper, Net Heating is defined as the percentage of Total Heating that does not go into the evaporation, sub surface warming and convection. The Effective heating percentage (“Eff”) is defined as the percentage of Total Heating that heats the Earth’s Land surface. Referring to Table 1, for Land, about 53% of the Total Heating of the Earth results in the Net Heating of the surface.”
Table 1 does not list subsurface warming (should not matter – the land is not a net sink of surface heating because the interior of the Earth is a net source of heat). That leaves convection and evaporation.
Meanwhile, Table 1 says for 1880 net heating is 360 W/m^2 and the total heating is 471 W/m^2, and for 2002 net heating is 367 W/m^2 and total heating is 485 W/m^2. Percentages of total heating for the net here are 76.4% and 75.7 respectively – much more than 53 or 55%.
Or, is Eff the percentage of a change of total heating that becomes change of net heating, since you say earlier in the article, “Eff is the percentage of an increase in Total Heating that heats the Earth’s Land surface”? At that point, I question how a 2.6 degree F temperature increase causes convection to increase from 99 to 105 W/m^2. Where does this number come from? That would have convection cooling proportional to around the 12th power of absolute temperature.
And for downward radiation from greenhouse gases increasing by 12 W/m^2, how did that happen? Increased from increase of greenhouse gases and because the greenhouse gases radiating towards the surface got warmer because the surface got warmer? Where did such a large number for the increase come from – to account for the surface getting 2.6 degrees F warmer and radiating away 7 W/m^2 more with solar influx increasing 2 W/m^2, and convection increasing 6 W/m^2?
Where does the remaining 1 W/m^2 go? Income increased 14 W/m^2 and outgo increased 13 W/m^2. I would expect rounding errors, because it would not be lost in (not listed in Table 1) subsurface heating because the interior of the Earth is a net source of heat.
Another thing I question is global land temperature increasing 2.6 degrees F from 1880 to 2002. As I see CRUTEM4, I think only 2.2 degrees F. Woodfortrees has CRUTEM4v (variance-adjusted CRUTEM4 which I expect to be similar enough to CRUTEM4 based on my past comparing of HadCRUT3v with HadCRUT3.) http://woodfortrees.org/plot/crutem4vgl/plot/crutem4vgl/from:1880/to:2002/trend/plot/crutem4vgl/from:1880/to:2015.5/trend This uses version 4.5 of CRUTEM. (HadCRUT4 uses CRUTEM4 for land and HadSST3 for sea, and decimal version notations in HadCRUT4 are the same as in CRUTEM.)
For that matter, at WUWT it is widely considered that all of the major land surface temperature datasets (and the corresponding global ones using these land ones) are “overcooked” and getting increasingly so in the past several years, with CRUTEM (land) and HadCRUT (global) less-so than the two-each corresponding American government ones. If global land temperature increased even less than 2.2 degrees F from 1880 to 2002, then Table 1 would need major rework, and I expect the figure for Eff as percentage of W/m^2 gain by the surface going into heating resulting in increased outgoing longwave infrared to be a lot more than 53-55%, probably more like 75%. That is before accounting for increased outgoing longwave radiation and convection heating the lower altitude greenhouse gases and causing them to increase the amount of longwave IR coming back down.