The Recent Senate Climate Hearing Failed Because It Continues To Miss The Point

Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball

L-R Dr. Judith Curry, Dr. Will Happer, and Mark Steyn at Senate hearing today. Photo: Dr. John Christy
L-R Dr. Judith Curry, Dr. Will Happer, and Mark Steyn at Senate hearing December 8th, 2015. Absent from photo: Dr. John Christy

Courts will not listen to or judge scientific disputes. The basic argument is that it is “your paper” against “their paper” and they are not qualified to judge. This was the issue when I participated in appeals to the US Supreme Court over actions of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). It is also the case in the three lawsuits filed against me. They are charges of defamation and not about the science. The lawsuits are effectively Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation (SLAPP) or a legal form of ad hominem attack. The question is, if I am so wrong about the science, as they claim, then why the lawsuits? The answer is because they cannot say I am not qualified, although they tried, and my ability to explain the complexities of climate science in a way the public understands threatens them.

The same problems confront any discussion in a formal hearing about climate science. Politicians are no better equipped or qualified to determine a science confrontation than the Courts. Scientists who participated in the December 8, 2015, Subcommittee on Space, Science, and Competitiveness, Senate Hearings were exposed to such a dilemma. They found themselves in a forum where they were not qualified to provide the answers to questions and thus effectively lost the case. There is a solution to the challenge, but neither they nor those who organized the hearings understood it.

My presentation at the first Heartland Climate Conference in New York explained the challenges faced by the scientists identified pejoratively as Deniers in the Senate Hearings. Many listened but the few that understood were people involved in communicating science to the public. They knew the pitfalls and the techniques necessary. I underscored my point by saying that Al Gore’s movie deserved an Oscar because it was a brilliant piece of propaganda produced in the fantasyland of Hollywood. They knew how to dramatize the science to catch and hold people’s attention. Chief Justice Burton of the UK Court ruled it was propaganda in the week before Gore received his Nobel Prize, but did not order that it not be shown in the schools, even though it had nine scientific errors. Instead, he ordered that students be apprized of the problems and then shown another documentary for balance. Unfortunately, this assumes that students and teachers can determine who is right and who is wrong.

My message in New York was if the Skeptics are to counteract Hollywood they must understand and apply the same basic techniques. They must abandon the idea that getting access to Washington and participating in public hearings before Congress will achieve the goal of educating the public to the scientific truth. They must show how “Their paper” was deliberately falsified in terms the public can understand. The recent US Senate hearings failed because the “Deniers” explained the scientific problems with the science of “Their Paper.” The politicians and public didn’t understand the difference. Even if they entertained the idea that “Their Paper” was wrong they were confronted with the question of whether the errors were from incompetence or corruption, something the presenters of “Your Paper” were not able or willing to answer.

The title of the Senate Hearing “Data or Dogma? Promoting Open Inquiry in the Debate over the Magnitude of Human Impact on Earth’s Climate” guaranteed it would fail with most people. It failed despite the imbalance in presenters with four, Dr. John Christie, Dr. Judith Curry, Dr. Will Happer, and Mark Steyn arguing for Data, and Dr. David Titley tepidly arguing for Dogma. The imbalance is not surprising. I know it is difficult to get someone to debate the Dogma and that if they are willing to debate it means they know very little about the science. The failure was not the fault of the presenters rather it was the entire problem of arguing science in a political forum. It is similar to why courts won’t consider scientific disputes.

Dr. Curry signaled the defeat when she correctly demanded the right to defend her scientific integrity against the charge of being called a denier. I was surprised because I thought Dr. Curry learned the lesson about how nasty people are when you challenge the prevailing wisdom. Early in the ongoing saga about global warming, Dr. Curry leaned toward the AGW theory and IPCC science thus making her acceptable to her academic colleagues. Then, to her everlasting credit, Dr. Curry, tried to pursue proper scientific method by inviting Steve McIntyre to her University, Georgia Tech, to make a presentation on his analysis of the ‘hockey stick’. McIntyre commented about the reaction.

Readers of this blog should realize that Judy Curry has been (undeservedly) criticized within the climate science community for inviting me to Georgia Tech. Given that the relatively dry nature of my formal interests and presentation (linear algebra, statistics, tree rings etc.) and that I’ve been invited to present by a panel of the National Academy of Sciences, it seems strange that such a presentation to scientists should provoke controversy, but it did.

 

You cannot imagine how nasty people get until you experience it by challenging their prevailing wisdom. Dr. Curry learned as I did that the surprising and most emotionally disturbing attacks came from colleagues.

Skeptics were pleased with the performance of the presenters in Washington because they know about the science and the issues. What they forget is that the majority don’t know. Skeptics must first step out of their bias and view events objectively. Then they must understand the subjective perspective of those who don’t understand the science, which includes most of the public, the media, and the politicians.

I respect the science and integrity of those who appeared to explain the Data, however, it was difficult to watch them struggle with the political posturing. This observation is not a criticism because they are scientists and want to avoid politics as much as possible. It is as basic as the fact that by simply appearing for the Data side automatically placed them in the Republican camp. Their presence and arguments made them political. They also lacked understanding of the nature of the debate and how it exposed the Dogma side.

I regret to say the Dogma side won because the Data side failed to deal with the real questions implied in their argument. From the Dogma and citizens perspective science is science, so why are there disagreements? They see the Data presenters as representatives of a political perspective. They think this because they ask why would scientists at the IPCC present misleading data, or worse, manipulate the data? What is their motive? The Data presenter’s political motive is clear to them: they are directly or indirectly under the political or financial influence of the energy sector.

For most people the proof that the Data presenters were political was their failure to answer the questions posed by Senator Markey and others about the 97% consensus and the warmest year on record. In fact, they could not answer them because they require a political answer explaining why they falsified the data and their motive? What answer would you give?

Mark Steyn gave an erudite, humorous, blunt, assessment of the politics involved. The problem is he began by saying he is not a climate scientist. Unfortunately, this only served to underscore the view that his fellow Data panelists were also political. There was no political spokesperson for the Dogma side: Senator Markey knew it wasn’t necessary.

The problem for Data presenters is they are climate scientists, specialists each in one small area of the complex, generalist discipline of climatology. It would require dozens of such specialists to cover the subject and be prepared to answer all the questions and still they could not answer the political or motive questions.

How To Manage A Debate

For approximately three years the Roy Green radio program in Canada offered unlimited airtime for anyone who would debate the issue of Global warming with me. Nobody took the offer! Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party in Canada, told Roy she wouldn’t debate, but would get someone to do it. A month later she told him that she couldn’t get anyone. This is why I was surprised when Ms. May agreed to a debate with me on the Ian Jessop radio program a few months ago. I won’t speculate on her motive.

I know I won the debate because Ms. May resorted to a personal attack at the end with a veiled threat of “another lawsuit.” It didn’t surprise me, although I was amazed and pleased about how many people picked up on it.

The problem with a global warming debate between two scientists is that the public would not understand; they wouldn’t even know who won. In a debate between a scientist and anyone else the scientist inevitably loses because it becomes about emotions, especially the exploitation of fear. Besides, there is always the fall back precautionary principle that we should act regardless of the evidence.

These conditions formed the basis of my thinking in preparing for my debate with Ms. May. I knew as a lawyer she would try to use detail, to find an “error” to justify rejecting the entire case. I also knew that Ms. May believed, as co-author of Global Warming For Dummies, that she knew the subject.

Ms. May did as I expected and discussed the scientific data and detail. I knew this would go over the head of most listeners as the Data specialist’s information did in Washington. I acted with discipline by not even correcting the many errors Ms. May made. There was no point in getting bogged down in data and detail that few understood. Besides, few would even know who was correct even after the explanation. It is the state of confusion and uncertainty about who to believe that is common for most people.

I did the opposite and provided general comments and examples speaking to the Dogma. The first thing was to undermine the credibility of the IPCC. Most people think that the IPCC study climate and climate change in its entirety. Once they learn that the definition given to them by the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) directed them only to study human causes of change, they realize the limitations of their work. You then reinforce the point by explaining that you can’t possibly determine human causes unless you know and understand natural causes. You can reinforce thay point by saying that failed weather and climate forecasts prove we don’t understand the natural causes.

Next, you counter the myth that a majority of scientists (97%?) agree. It is too technical to present the arguments so well laid out in Lord Monckton’s analysis. It is easier and more effective to explain that very few scientists ever read the IPCC Reports. They accept, not unreasonably, the results of other scientists without question, just as the public do. The confession by Klaus-Eckhart Puls does not require data or scientific understanding. It expresses emotions people understand, including surprise, shock, and then anger that anyone can appreciate. The IPCC produced scientific documents that decimated all scientific rules, regulations and practices. You don’t need to know that when a scientist publically admits his failure in accepting, and passing on their corrupted science without question.

“Ten years ago I simply parroted what the IPCC told us. One day I started checking the facts and data—first I started with a sense of doubt but then I became outraged when I discovered that much of what the IPCC and the media were telling us was sheer nonsense and was not even supported by any scientific facts and measurements. To this day I still feel shame that as a scientist I made presentations of their science without first checking it.”

He wasn’t fooled; he just didn’t look.

I wrote much of my book The Deliberate Corruption of Climate Science years before it was published. I delayed publication because I knew from teaching Science to Arts students for 25 years, giving hundreds of public lectures, and participating in several documentaries that the public was not ready. In many ways, it was still released too early. I know many skeptics shy away from it because it dares to answer the question implied but avoided by the Senate Hearing; if the data is falsified who would do that and why? The question that automatically arises when you argue the Data or Skeptic side is MOTIVE. Not only did the Dogma win, but they also scored points by the inability of the Data specialists to answer questions that required providing the motive.

Elaine Dewar provided the motive after spending five days with Maurice Strong at the UN where he created the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the UNFCCC and the IPCC.

Strong was using the U.N. as a platform to sell a global environment crisis and the Global Governance Agenda.

Even if the Data specialists or Mark Steyn spoke to this motive Senator Markey would argue, falsely but effectively, that it was necessary to save the planet and dismiss them as conspiracy theorists. We are still a long way from the point when explaining the motive to the public would resonate. It requires exposition of the crimes first, and that requires explaining the science in ways the public understand. One factor that prevents those that are able is seeing what happened to Dr. Curry, myself, or several others. Just ask Dr. Richard Lindzen. The price paid for even seeking the truth in climate science is financially and emotionally high, and few are willing to pay the price. Besides, the Dogmatists and the public believe energy companies’ reward them well for their efforts.

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Science or Fiction
December 20, 2015 1:52 am

“The IPCC produced scientific documents that decimated all scientific rules, regulations and practices.”
I support that view: IPCC is governed by unscientific principles!

December 20, 2015 1:52 am

Dr. Ball, I agree that getting bogged down in the science is not a winning strategy against the dogmatists, I just thought I’d comment on the issue of Sweden and Denmark, which was brought up in the Q&A part of the debate.
Bearing in mind that electricity is only part of the total energy budget, it is still the most important part when comparing how different countries try to transition to non-fossil-based production. Thus, it’s important to realize that Sweden’s electricity production until ca 1950 was about 100 % hydro power. Most of the production increase since the 70’s came from nuclear (Sweden got its first commercial nuclear power plant in 1972), so that in 2010, hydro and nuclear together produced 84 % of Sweden’s electricity.comment image
The push to increase the share of alternative energy sources in Sweden is not so much about replacing fossil fuels as it is about replacing nuclear power – combined with the long-established consensus that we don’t want to expand our hydro power any more.
A problem is that our wind power doesn’t contribute much, even though it has been expanded to the point that many who live close to the installations have started complaining. The assumption that the fluctuations in wind power production will start evening out as enough generators are put in production doesn’t seem to bear out, and while hydro power is the perfect buffer for wind, our hydro-based buffer capacity is already largely used up, partly because Denmark relies on Norway and Sweden for hydro-based buffer capacity.

Norway and Sweden provide Denmark, Germany and Netherlands access to significant amounts of fast, short term balancing reserve, via interconnectors. They effectively act as Denmark’s “electricity storage batteries”. Norwegian and Swedish hydropower can be rapidly turned up and down, and Norway’s lakes effectively “store” some portion of Danish wind power.
Over the last eight years West Denmark has exported (couldn’t use), on average, 57% of the wind power it generated and East Denmark an average of 45%. The correlation between high wind output and net outflows makes the case that there is a large component of wind energy in the outflow indisputable.

(This written from a Danish perspective – there is, of course, corresponding export of electricity from Sweden and Norway to Denmark, and the balance partly depends on how well-filled the hydro reservoirs are, underlining the fact that Sweden doesn’t really have spare buffer capacity left for a major wind expansion, which is something that neighboring countries should also factor in.)
Solar is not really a contender at Sweden’s latitudes, especially in the north, where there is less than an hour of daylight this time of year (today in Kiruna, the sun rises at 11:29 am and sets at 11:57 am; where I live, at least we get ca 5 hours of daylight.)
In other words, Sweden is a bad example of how to transition to clean energy, since it’s been blessed with lots of hydro power potential from the start (Sweden, with less than 10 million people, ranks no 9 in the world in GWh hydro power production; Norway, with ca 5 million people, ranks no 6.) Many countries have very little hydro potential.

Science or Fiction
December 20, 2015 2:12 am

“Elaine Dewar provided the motive after spending five days with Maurice Strong at the UN where he created the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the UNFCCC and the IPCC. Strong was using the U.N. as a platform to sell a global environment crisis and the Global Governance Agenda.”
In the following minutes of meeting it is evident that IPCC was heavily biased from the beginning: Report of the second session of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) 28 June 1989
Extracts can be seen in my post here:
United Nations Had Dogmatic Influence On Ipcc From The Very Beginning!

Reply to  Science or Fiction
December 20, 2015 12:17 pm

::: putting on my 20 – 30s demographic pretend hat ::::
What’s so wrong with supporting the UN ?
My god, you are such a hater.
All people are equal.
No justice, no peace.
Really, get over your warmongering self and see the better future of cleaner energy.

Science or Fiction
Reply to  knutesea
December 20, 2015 1:56 pm

I´m supporting United Nations as long as United Nations operate responsibly within their charter.
I´m not supporting United Nations in putting up a so-called scientific body (IPCC) on which it does not enforce sound scientific principles. An UNscientific body having an effective monopoly on advising the nations.
I´m not supporting United Nations in letting the secretary-general Ban Ki-Moon appoint powerful bureaucrats having a personal agenda to change our economic development model:
“This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for the, at least, 150 years, since the industrial revolution,”
– Christiana Figueres, who heads up the U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change
I´m no supporting United Nations in doing that because it does not seem to be in accordance with my human rights: Article 21. (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections
Are you all ok with the way United Nations has been operating?

richard
December 20, 2015 3:12 am

Judging by the comment sections on all internet sites relating to gorebull warming stories it seems that the message is getting out there.

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  richard
December 20, 2015 6:28 am

True dat. And their “explanation” is that we skeptics must be getting paid. That is the only way they can make their ever- increasing levels of cognitive dissonance bearable.

cedarhill
December 20, 2015 3:31 am

Galileo, in his trial in 1616, had the better science but discovered political power plus bad science results in house arrest. You’d think after 400 years, science folks would be more scientific when entering into a political debate. After all, there is such a thing as political science.
Lawyers have long understood the general rule (with some exceptions) that when expert testimony is an issue at trail, each side will present their expert which will contradict the others expert. Regardless, the jury (i.e., voters) usually just cancel the experts out and decide most cases on other factors. One exception is to absolutely destroy the veracity of the opponents expert. A more recent trial example most folks may recall is the OJ murder trial which presented the now gold standard of evidence – DNA – and still lost.
Understand. After 20 years of all sorts of deceit, lying, alarming, campaigning, et al, along with the most outrageous readjustments of facts in the history of science, you’ll still get the carbon tax, you’ll still see windmills built, you’ll still see the governments of the world use their science experts to justify their redistribution schemes and vote buying.
Face facts. You’re like Galileo (true scientists) and are loath to engage in political science.
Expect to lose.
House arrest will be the best outcome you can expect from your opponents.
What you need to do is find a political science person(s), help them plan a campaign where you merely play the supportive role. Call in proxy political science. Oh, and get to work on your hockey stick as well.

mwhite
December 20, 2015 3:44 am

” Instead, he ordered that students be apprized of the problems and then shown another documentary for balance.”
To anyone who has seen it, would Climate Hustle be that film???

co2islife
December 20, 2015 4:34 am

You cannot imagine how nasty people get until you experience it by challenging their prevailing wisdom. Dr. Curry learned as I did that the surprising and most emotionally disturbing attacks came from colleagues.
Skeptics were pleased with the performance of the presenters in Washington because they know about the science and the issues. What they forget is that the majority don’t know. Skeptics must first step out of their bias and view events objectively. Then they must understand the subjective perspective of those who don’t understand the science, which includes most of the public, the media, and the politicians.

This documentary highlights how one person can present the data in a manner in which the public can understand and win the arguments. It also highlights how nasty people can become when you win the debate. This clip highlights some of it.
https://youtu.be/QowL2BiGK7o?t=11m50s

co2islife
December 20, 2015 4:52 am

Socialism and Environmentalism aren’t revenue generating industries. They will always need to find new ways to generate revenues. Now that the Tobacco money is running out, they need new sources. They have basically killed their Tobacco host and are now ready to move on. They will go from killing one industry to another just for survival. We skeptics argue for the truth, they argue for survival. A person facing certain death will make up a lot of lies to survive. It is that simple. They will destroy America if we don’t figure out a way to stop them. BTW, we need to put the spending in terms of opportunity costs. Do you want trillions of dollars going to trial lawyers, or to the schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, etc?

rtj1211
December 20, 2015 5:40 am

One has to say that in the age of ‘ageism’, where ‘the workplace’ dispenses with you after the age of 50, there is a huge role for the retired O50s to put the climate skeptical case, free of a need for a salary, free of the need for future work, free of the need to pander to superiors and free of the need to do anything but uphold the principles of whichever society they were born into/currently live in and fight the fight with everything that they can put into it.

Reply to  rtj1211
December 20, 2015 12:51 pm

Great observation.
Perhaps a march on DC.
Tens of 1000s of post 50s folks.
Will there be nakedness for attention sake
::: couldnt resist .. high T day i suppose:::

Adrian O
December 20, 2015 6:26 am

“their failure to answer the questions posed by Senator Markey and others about the 97% consensus and the warmest year on record.”
The answer to that is:
“Senator, you are also at your tallest on record, but that does not mean that you keep growing!”

Steven Capozzola
December 20, 2015 6:47 am

This is all very true.
The global warming debate always and immediately gets sidetracked by questions about “warming,” denying,” and “melting.”
The real issue is not whether mean temperatures rose modestly in the past century– since everyone already recognizes that they did. No, the debating point should be “WHY?” Ie. “Is it the CO2 hypothesis or solar variability that’s responsible for a net rise in temperatures?”
Anything else is a distraction, and doesn’t advance the discussion.

Russell
Reply to  Steven Capozzola
December 20, 2015 8:04 am

In order to upset the Elite Agenda I believe we must continue and I mean point out over and over again that the Diabetes Epidemic / Catastrophe and I mean major Catastrophe in the world was based, on a never proven science hypothesis / consensus ie Cholesterol Lie the US food pyramid High Carb Low Saturated Fat diet is killing the nation. Health Care Cost in the 2015 US Budget is One Trillion Dollars not counting the Medication / GOV program . The minute the bring up 97% we say yea look at what consensus did in the health care epidemic of our nation. 75% of all chronic disease can be eliminated on a proper saturated fat diet. However it has take 50 years for the truth.

Russell
Reply to  Russell
December 20, 2015 10:42 am
Reply to  Russell
December 20, 2015 12:49 pm

That is indeed a f___kd up one.
Unfortunately, society is still too deep in the execution of that disaster to see it clearly.
We have not reached “mass loading” yet.

Reply to  Steven Capozzola
December 20, 2015 12:43 pm

the debating point should be “WHY?” Ie. “Is it the CO2 hypothesis or solar variability that’s responsible for a net rise in temperatures?”
Anything else is a distraction, and doesn’t advance the discussion.

That’s why I keep pressing for the most basic quantitative classical physics . I see no way that electromagnetic , ie : radiative , phenomena can overcome the Divergence Theorem and “trap” energy .
GHG effects explain 0.0 of the difference between top and bottom of atmosphere temperatures . Show me the equations and experiments which prove me wrong .

Reply to  Bob Armstrong
December 20, 2015 1:19 pm

Bob
Can you put that on a poster when you march on DC ?

Reply to  knutesea
December 20, 2015 3:28 pm

Haven’t marched on WDC since just before L’l Bush awed Iraq .
Lotta good that did .
I think it all can be expressed in fewer equations than Maxwell needed .

Larry Adamec
December 20, 2015 7:09 am

Thank you for being among the few who have made the sacrifice you explained. Your actions do not go unappreciated though there is no tangible reward.

Ed Zuiderwijk
December 20, 2015 7:51 am

A sober and accurate assessment.

Tater
December 20, 2015 7:53 am

Dr. Curry seemed to be about to make a very good point concerning error bars but then trailed off. This seems to be the best area to hammer home to those that don’t quite grasp the statistical significance of what is being put forward by the true-believers.
When one understands that the margins are so large that the coolest of the last 20(ish) years could possibly match the warmest (and vice-versa), it can go a long way towards opening other avenues of questioning.
When the margins of error can contain every year in the measured period, doesn’t that just sort of show that the scientists’ own measurements (estimated) can’t even support their own arguments?
In reality, it would seem to me that the last 20 years or so have been remarkably stable in spite of all of the discussions to the contrary.

ScienceRules
December 20, 2015 7:58 am

Dr Tim Ball states the obvious when he says courts and politicians can’t judge the science.
What he misses is that it doesn’t matter –the courts go to the peer-reviwed science for that judgment– Which is why Dr Ball lost, and will lose every time –essentially all peer-reviewed science concludes AGW, as do all the world’s Science Academies. Until Dr Ball can put a dent in that scientific consensus, he’ll get nowhere, and deservedly so.

Simon
Reply to  ScienceRules
December 20, 2015 9:42 am

Have to agree. All the time the planet continues to warm and there is no other feasible reason for the warming, then hearings like this will just be disregarded as noise. And what a crock anyway. It was just grandstanding by a politician trying to improve his nomination chances. This was never about the science.

Ian
Reply to  Simon
December 20, 2015 3:21 pm

“All the time the planet continues to warm”
Dream on.
http://www.climate4you.com/images/MSU%20RSS%20GlobalMonthlyTempSince1979%20With37monthRunningAverage%20With201505Reference.gif
Removing only half a decade (1993-1998) leaves No Warming during the last four decades: NADA. Yet more than 30% of all of the CO2 that was EVER emitted was emitted during those four decades.
“Truth if the daughter of time, not of authority.” – Francis Bacon

Reply to  Simon
December 20, 2015 6:30 pm

Ian is correct. Simon says:
All the time the planet continues to warm and there is no other feasible reason for the warming…
“No other feasible reason”?? Maybe Simon really believes that. But he probably also knows that the planet has gone through the same exact cycles in the past, and that there is nothing unusual or unprecedented happening now.
So, Simon, if human CO2 emissions are the cause of what we are observing now, how is it that the same thing happened before there were any human industrial emissions?
C’mon, Simon, explain that one for us. That’s like claiming that human CO2 emissions are exactly balancing global cooling, and that’s why there’s been no global warming for the past couple of decades. Even more preposterous, human CO2 emissions are changing with the industrialization of China, India, and a hundred smaller countries. But the putative global cooling is being exactly offset by changing ACO2?? That means the global cooling is changing at exactly the same rate as the global warming being caused by human CO2 emissions.
Simon, at some point your explanations go off the rails. You’re in epicycle territory now, inventing more and more convoluted explanations to support your failed CO2=AGW conjecture, when Occam’s Razor says the simplest explanation is most likely the correct explanation.
The simple explanation is that CO2 just hasn’t got the global warming effect claimed by you and your pals. If you disagree, here’s your chance to show us. So here’s the question again:
If human CO2 emissions are the cause of what we are observing now, how is it that the same thing happened before there were human emissions?
Explain, Simon. Or concede to Mr. Ockham.

rogerknights
Reply to  ScienceRules
December 20, 2015 2:48 pm

“essentially all peer-reviewed science concludes AGW, as do all the world’s Science Academies.”
The consensus is about AGW, but the debate is about CAGW.

rogerknights
Reply to  ScienceRules
December 20, 2015 3:16 pm

“essentially all peer-reviewed science concludes AGW”
Not exactly: http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html

Knute
Reply to  rogerknights
December 20, 2015 6:56 pm

+ 100

Kyle K
December 20, 2015 8:02 am

Thank you Dr. Tim Ball, bravo!
You have shared with us a great perspective for where we are, and how we got here. This helps us determine the way forward.

gnomish
December 20, 2015 8:18 am

Dr Tim –
Do you imagine a debate is the appropriate process for dealing with somebody’s proposal to steal from you?
Do you fully accept that you will give up your stuff to whoever demands it and that you will also decide how much? How about the buck stops where you say it does – with you? How about not donating your earnings to thieves? How about not choosing what degree of slavery you will submit to and defying the premise?
Because when you negotiate, you have affirmed what you are and are merely dickering over price.
So no, your idea that negotiation will save you is wrong.

Reply to  gnomish
December 20, 2015 12:47 pm

disengage from an opponent who has authority and you will disappear.
engage them where they are weak and you WILL weaken them.

gnomish
Reply to  knutesea
December 20, 2015 1:21 pm

feed em, ya breed em.
they would not otherwise be able to exist.
who feeds them?
and then wishes they wouldn’t eat…
that’s codependent cannibalism as far as i can see

Reply to  gnomish
December 20, 2015 1:48 pm

Your suggestion works for an annoying fringe group with no power.
Alarmists were nothing special until the early 90s when they became identified as a political voting block. They did that via alignment with certain NGOs. Now they are entrenched with authority. You can ignore them and detach, but they’ll keep on coming until they are detached from the authority they control.
MOST of the silent majority tries to ignore them and self insulate and that of course plays into their hands because they already have the power they need to move forward.
Quite the sticky wicket.

Adrian O
December 20, 2015 9:08 am

The temperature record shown by Titley was cooked by NASA-GISS. The 1998 peak for instance had been nearly erased. That is why the point was lost.
Cruz should go after data fraud first, which he is now doing. Otherwise they will ALWAYS counter with fraudulent data passed as good. He should be able to say: “The data that you are showing was proved to be fraudulent.”
PS I am a strong believer in second chances. A climatologist who cooks temps SHOULD be given a second chance, to monitor the KFC cooker temp. Though under supervision against tampering for the first few years.

Reply to  Adrian O
December 21, 2015 5:22 pm

How about 3rd chances ?
Similar folks who rattled the cages for the next ice age in the 70s were resurrected to find CAGW as their new friend. It’s crazymaking and they keep attempting it because they don’t like what the a vibrant rugged and individualistic society.
As I was reminded by the stunning but oh so condescending organic farmer neighbor … “Our values are different and I just don’t expect you to have the frame of mind to understand where folks like me are coming from … “

December 20, 2015 9:08 am

Thanks, Dr. Ball, for starting this WUWT debate.
Settled science is not a permanent answer, as Newton would say, had he known what Einstein would publish.

CarlF
December 20, 2015 9:10 am

Most who believe in CAGW will defer to the 97% when challenged. They aren’t experts, but the 97% are, and that’s their final statement on the matter. Until the 97% claim is dead and buried, there is no possibility of convincing the general public. The skeptic community needs to put out their own claims so there is at least an available counter-claim. Senator Markey, who likely knows the 97% claim is false, uses it effectively to dismiss everything the skeptic side claims.

Russell
Reply to  CarlF
December 20, 2015 10:20 am

Rep Debbi Wasserman Schultz ; Chair of the Dem., Nat., Committee was on CNN this AM : the question asked was. Climate Change was not mentioned in the Democratic debate last night. Answer bla bla bla 97% 97%

Reply to  CarlF
December 20, 2015 2:17 pm

ScienceRules,
You have the Scientific Method backward. The ‘dangerous AGW’ conjecture (also called CO2=AGW) is put forth by the climate alarmist crowd. Therefore, they have the onus of providing a coherent scientific explanation that confirms their conjecture.
The onus is on the side making the conjecture; skeptics have nothiung to prove. The job of skeptics is to deconstruct, falsify, and debunk conjectures if at all possible.
Skeptics of the ‘dangerous AGW’ scare have done an excellent job of falsifying that conjecture, with the help of Planet Earth. The planet is contradicting the scare by not warming, as had been endlessly predicted by climate alarmists.
Doesn’t that convince you? Out of all the numerous frightening predictions of accelerating sea level rise, and runaway global warming, and decimated polar bear populations, and ocean acidification, and disappearing glaciers, and Arctic ice, and Greenland ice, and Antarctic ice cover, and inundated coastlines, and Tuvalu and Micronesia being drowned by rising oceans, and climate catastrophe in general, exactly none of those alarming predictions ever came true. They were wrong. All of them. In fact, no scary alarmist predictions have ever happened.
If the total failure of all the alarmists’ predictions convinces you that their dangerous AGW conjecture is wrong, then you are being rational. If the failure of all those predictions still doesn’t convince you that their conjecture is wrong, I have a question:
What would convince you? Please be specific.

rogerknights
Reply to  CarlF
December 20, 2015 3:05 pm
Reply to  rogerknights
December 20, 2015 3:31 pm

Thanks Roger
I ventured over there.
She’s runs a good page, but it’s low on participants.
CE needs a larger audience of posters.
She should consider merging her efforts with a larger page like WUWT or JoNova
Maybe an occasional joint publishing.
Obviously just my opinion.

Tom Crozier
Reply to  rogerknights
December 20, 2015 8:20 pm

Won’t ever happen. This site allows too many opinions of those whose minds are already made up. In a field with so politicized and with so many variables, it’s impossible at this point to know if anyone really knows the truth. Most here admit that there is simply not enough data to pontificate, but there are a few dogmatists whose pre-conceived ideas are as ridiculous as those of the most rabid environmentalists. Until the ad hominem stops, no true professional would associate associate herself (other than a few guest commentaries) with the sometimes vitriolic opinions expressed here.

Knute
Reply to  Tom Crozier
December 20, 2015 9:07 pm

Tom
The mosh pit is a messy place.
I agree that the ad homs are hurtful and have no place, but they seem to be kept to a dull roar here.
Based on your post, I think you would be surprised who wanders thru this webpage.

rogerknights
Reply to  rogerknights
December 21, 2015 7:16 am

“She’s runs a good page, but it’s low on participants.”
There are a lot of influential/mainstream lurkers there though. The warmist elite is aware of what’s on her site. She’s probably silently influencing some of them to be braver, and giving them links and arguments they need to do so.

Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 8:32 am

ScienceRules,
Well, you have just confirmed that you don’t know which way is up. And as always, you won’t answer a simple question. Instead, you ramble on incoherently, never answering questions, and never posting evidence that supports your belief. That is because you have no credible evidence, which is why you always fall back on your appeal to corrupted authorities.
Skeptics have nothing to refute, and climate alarmists have the onus of supporting their ‘dangerous man-made global warming’ conjecture.
You’ve failed miserably; you cannot even produce a single measurement to show what you believe is happening. There are no measurements of AGW, but if you want a Nobel Prize, just go find one.
Whenever someone like you shows up here and argues with nothing more than assertions, it is clear that you cannot support your belief; your assertions are all you’ve got.
Here on the internet’s “Best Science” site, baseless assertions like yours lose the argument. If you had credible evidence, you would have posted it by now.

BusterBrown@hotmail.com
Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 8:39 am

“There are no measurements of AGW,”
..
(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)

Reply to  BusterBrown@hotmail.com
December 21, 2015 8:45 am

Well, well, well,
Another ignorant comment by the King of Ignorance, Busted Bluster.
Why even bother to explain? You wouldn’t understand anyway, and you would just post more baseless, unsupported assertions like that one.

BusterBrown@hotmail.com
Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 8:50 am

(Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on posting 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name is wasted, because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)

Reply to  BusterBrown@hotmail.com
December 21, 2015 7:58 pm

Busted Bluster says:
(Hint: the “W” in AGW is “warming”)
And the “A” refers to ‘man-made’ global warming. But as always, you have failed to produce any measurements quantifying how much global warming is man-made. The fact is, you don’t know if any warming is caused by human activity. You certainly have no data measuring AGW. If you did, you would be the first.
Thus, you fail; all you are doing is asserting your baseless belief that global warming is primarily caused by human CO2 emissions. That’s why you keep bird-dogging my comments: you’ve got nothin’ credible to contribute; my mere presence displays your inferiority, and you’re fixated on me. Admit it (or don’t. But readers can see your lame attempts to argue pointlessly with every point I raise).
But of course, you cannot prove that human activity causes global warming. You can’t even produce credible evidence. So as always, you fall back on your baseless assertions; your opinions. Your opinions are worthless because you have no supporting measurements. You have no data quantifying AGW.
Unless and until you can produce verifiable, testable measurements specifically quantifying the fraction of global warming attributable to human CO2 emissions, your entire argument is nothing but your uneducated opinion.
Global warming stopped many years ago, therefore the planet is debunking your baseless opinion. Every time you comment, you’re digging your hole deeper. Because everyone can see that you’ve got nothin’.

Knute
Reply to  dbstealey
December 21, 2015 8:24 pm

I think it’s fascinating to watch the warmists cling to the argument that skeptics have to disprove something that they haven’t proved. And, they are getting much pushier about it (could just be my impression).
They are losing so many of the things they predicted to be true.
Must be getting a little unsettling for them that people might begin to notice.
I think they will dive deeper into meaningless minutia and try to trot out old nonsense such as the particulate negative forcing effect. No shame. It will be telling to see if the science community can tow the line and not take the bait of genuinely debating the equivalent of grasping for straws.
Eventually, some well organized consortium of NGOs should retest the SCOTUS decision. SCOTUS deferred based on the preponderance of uncertainty and a spineless deferral to tail end of the probability risk. With the growing failure of warmists predictions, the time is approaching for a challenge.

Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 9:48 am

“Skeptics have provided no coherent refutation of AGW that stands up to the scrutiny of peer-review; nor, apparently, do they wish to.”
Simply false .
On the other hand , you AlGoreWarming cultists have never , because you cannot , presented either the fundamental , in SI units , physical equations quantifying the “trapping” of energy by spectral phenomena , or any experiment demonstrating the effect .
Please do , because then we will have a way to construct perpetual heat engines and be done with all this landscape despoiling claptrap .

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 9:59 am

DBStealey,
Haven’t you heard? They have these new types of thermometers which are able to measure the anthropogenic portion of the temperature. Pretty cool, huh?
I think Mikey Mann has them, cheap.

Reply to  Bruce Cobb
December 21, 2015 10:24 am

I have a snap together hockey stick thermometer.
You can mix and match LIA, MWP, Roman, Minoan.
You can even program it to say “warmest evah”

Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 4:30 pm

SciencRrules continues to miss the central point: the onus is on you to produce convincing, evidence-based measurements showing that CO2 is the primary cause of global warming.
You’ve failed so abjectly to produce any evidence that it’s not surprising you keep missing the point.

Reply to  dbstealey
December 21, 2015 5:16 pm

DB
As Sciencedude points out, RIGHT or WRONG he expects skeptics to have to disprove what they haven’t proved. I’ve seen a good dose of this behavior in my life and I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it too. It’s hard to see it when your doing it.
It’s typically coupled with an emotional personal who doesn’t see that it’s up to them to provide at least a reasonable train of thought for why they cling to what they do and subsequently demand some sort of behavior. When you don’t perform the behavior the berating escalates. Funny thing is, after the dust settles and if the particular thing turned out to be the opposite of what they thought, there is rarely a review of past behavior. The really bad ones just keep repeating the cycle.
For what its worth, the worst thing to do is to get sucked in and reinforce the crazymaking … I think you have the right approach … RIGHT or WRONG as dude man says.
Peanuts from the gallery

markl
Reply to  CarlF
December 21, 2015 6:01 pm

ScienceRules commented: “… until the skeptics make a coherent argument in the peer reviewed literature, they have no chance of winning in the courts. Right or wrong, they continue to fail because, like Stealey, they consider it unimportant go do so….”
No one will give skeptic papers the time of day much less publish their views. If you think it’s because they are less “scientific” or “coherent” than most of the AGW drivel being published then you don’t understand the problem. Salamanders in North Carolina are exhibiting stunted growth because of global warming when only 6 specimens were examined received peer review and was published in a scientific journal as further proof of global warming. Is that what you mean by peer review? Skeptics have no voice because the media and educational institutions are denying it.

Mervyn
December 20, 2015 7:01 pm

Courts will not listen to or judge scientific disputes. The basic argument is that it is “your paper” against “their paper” and they are not qualified to judge.
Not so fast! Courts will listen and judge scientific disputes where the Courts are presented with the ‘red flags’ that demonstrate scientific fraud has been committed and that there was an intention to mislead and deceive. Many examples of this have already been raised in the public domain. What has been lacking is placing the evidence before the prosecutors in every major legal jurisdiction, from America to Australia.

Reply to  Mervyn
December 20, 2015 8:11 pm

+10
Evidence has tilted towards the side of the skeptic

December 20, 2015 10:24 pm

“Politicians are no better equipped or qualified to determine a science confrontation than the Courts.”
Dr Ball makes several good points: this approach was bound to fail. It failed because the Chairman and some Senators were acting as mere politicians instead of acting as Senators concerned with the administration of the law.
In my view, the hearing should have focused on compliance with the Data Quality Act rather than a forum for promoting skeptical views. The Senate and its committees have responsibility to monitor compliance with the Data Quality Act (DQA) or Information Quality Act (IQA), passed through the United States Congress in Section 515 of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2001. This is a matter of ensuring that taxpayers are getting what they are paying for.
“Politicians are no better equipped or qualified to determine a science confrontation than the Courts.”
Senators are not merely “politicians”. Collectively with the House of Representatives, Senators represent the citizenry of the US, charged with responsibility to make the laws and to oversee certain activities of the Executive Branch. including Government Agencies.
The Congress and the Committee are authorized and mandated by law to maintain oversight of Government agencies. If Senators are advised by scientists that some climate data is of such low quality that the NOAA (among other agencies) exaggerates the level of warming within the continental US, then the responsible Committee is obligated to investigate. Scientists employed full time by the US Government as civil servants have no special status, unlike independent scientists and academics who undertake research for the US Government under contract.
As I understand it, a more appropriate basis for a Committee hearing would have been the recent paper by Antony Watts and others that demonstrated how few weather stations attain the high quality that taxpayers are entitled to expect.
From the point of view of the Committee, the data has been and still is collected and analyzed in a manner that is inconsistent with the Data Quality Act.
The Canadian approach is of limited relevance to the US, because committees of the Canadian Parliament (Senate or Commons) do not have the same authority vis-a-vis government agencies. Whenever the Prime Minister has a solid majority in both houses, then the Parliament functions merely as the Prime Minister’s poodle.

JP
December 20, 2015 11:35 pm

You wrote “the definition given to them by the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) directed them only to study human causes of change”. Is there any documentation of this that I can cite? Thanks.

markl
Reply to  JP
December 21, 2015 8:26 am

JP commented: “… “the definition given to them by the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) directed them only to study human causes of change”. Is there any documentation of this that I can cite?….”
From “PRINCIPLES GOVERNING IPCC WORK” , second paragraph, ROLE:
“The role of the IPCC is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation.
IPCC reports should be neutral with respect to policy, although they may need to deal objectively with
scientific, technical and socio-economic factors releva
nt to the application of particular policies.”

co2islife
December 21, 2015 5:51 am

WUWT, I need your help with a MODTRAN problem to address the claims made in this video by a warmist. You gotta love the scientific title “Denial 101.” That would be a joke it it didn’t come from one of our universities. In the video it is claimed that the tilt of the earth slightly warmed the N Hemi, that slight warming caused an outgassing of the oceans of CO2 and that CO2 warmed the earth to bring us out of an ice age. The CO2 went from 180 to 260 for a net heat trapping of 2.5 W/M^2. The temp also increased by 3°C, but I held temp constant. The obvious problem with this theory is that the N Hemi would have gone from a very very dry ice age climate to a rather moist climate that was conducive for plant growth and life. Changing Water Vapor from 0 to 1 resulted in a net heat trap of 70W/M^2 , or 25X the impact of CO2. Clearly the increase in water vapor resulted in the warming, not CO2. I would to further refine that example using the adjustment of 3°C and more accurate adjustments for the water vapor. Any help would be appreciated. Once I get a solid example I can then make a video to refute this video. I would also hope others would do the same. We need to make videos exposing the flaws of this theory using their own claims.
https://youtu.be/dHozjOYHQdE

co2islife
December 21, 2015 8:49 am

BTW, the more I think about that explanation the more nonsensical it becomes. This about the dynamics. If Ice covered the N Hemisphere, the albedo would be great, reflecting more incoming light. There would be nothing absorbing the incoming radiation. As the snow and ice melt they flow into the oceans, slowing the warming of the oceans. As more ice melts, more of the ocean is exposed, allowing it to trap more heat. It would be as if a shade was being removed from the oceans. Once all the land ice has melted, the oceans would warm at a greater rate because there would no longer be glacier melt cooling them. The gradual decrease of the albedo and decreased glacier melt can explain the warming without the introduction of CO2. Am I wrong?

Reply to  co2islife
December 21, 2015 12:42 pm

Very pro produced video out of Australia.
You have your work cut out for you to compete.
They even use heavy bass beat to appeal to your basic instincts, if you believe in such stuff.
On the humorous side I think I saw that jacket in the 60s.
And thanks for linking to these.
I’m going to watch more.

Reply to  co2islife
December 21, 2015 6:35 pm

co2islife,
They seem to be neglecting the fact that the Southern Hemisphere has a lot more ocean than the NH. That contradicts their “theory”.
There are also the laws of radiative physics, which show that at current CO2 levels (≈400 ppm) the change in global T is so small that even for a large rise in CO2, the resulting rise in temperature is too small to measure.
This chart shows that even with a 20%, or 30%, or 50% rise in CO2, the resulting rise in global T would be only a tiny fraction of a degree:comment image
Walking viewers through that cause-and-effect scenario is convincing evidence, which is supported by the fact that global warming stopped in the late 1990’s, and has not resumed despite the large rise in (harmless, beneficial) CO2.

Reply to  dbstealey
December 21, 2015 6:55 pm

DB
Thanks, I think I get it.
What she did was create the illusion of a false dichotomy.
She first shows the graphics of how CO2 and T seem to mirror each other, then presents the case that both T preceding CO2 and CO2 adding to temp increase are correct .. the false dichotomy.
Essentially she takes the minuscule temp effect of CO2 and tricks the listener to think that CO2 has a large effect on temp increasing.
Fascinating