Guest essay by Eric Worrall
Elon Musk has announced the release of a new storage battery for home use. The new battery in principle dramatically reduces the cost of going “off grid” – powering your house entirely from solar or wind, and using the battery to provide backup power, to ensure continuous supply.
According to The Guardian;
The electric car company Tesla has announced its entry into the energy market, unveiling a suite of low-cost solar batteries for homes, businesses and utilities, “the missing piece”, it said, in the transition to a sustainable energy world.
The batteries, which will retail at $3,500 in the US, were launched on Thursday at a Tesla facility in California by the company’s ambitious founder, Elon Musk, who heralded the technology as “a fundamental transformation [in] how energy is delivered across the earth”.
Wall-mounted, with a sleek design, the lithium-ion batteries are designed to capture and store up to 10kWh of energy from wind or solar panel. The reserves can be drawn on when sunlight is low, during grid outages, or at peak demand times, when electricity costs are highest.
The smallest “Powerwall” is 1.3m by 68cm, small enough to be hung inside a garage on or an outside wall. Up to eight batteries can be “stacked” in a home, Musk said, to applause from investors and journalists at the much-anticipated event.
I’m excited by this announcement, not because I’m currently considering buying a Tesla battery, but because of the potential this announcement has, for exerting downward pressure on household electricity bills.
Assuming the battery has around 1000 charge / discharge cycles, paying $3500 every 3 years is approaching price parity with some of the more ridiculous electricity utility charges. When you factor in the satisfaction of tearing up your last electricity bill, there is a real chance a significant number of people will be tempted to make the leap.
How will utility companies respond? I suspect they will be forced to cap household bills, to put as much price distance as possible, between the Tesla option, and staying connected to their grid. It will no longer be possible to make electricity rates skyrocket, to treat household electricity consumers as an inelastic revenue source – because now householders have an alternative, to putting up with endless price rises.
The biggest losers from this potential game changer, in my opinion, might be large scale renewable energy providers. Since households now have an alternative to paying ever larger electricity bills, electricity utilities will be forced to keep costs down – they will no longer be able to ignore costs imposed by government mandated renewable schemes. Either the government will be forced to provide higher subsidies, or large scale renewable schemes will have to be scaled back, to keep grid electricity price competitive.
thank you, Tesla.
John you must be invested in Lithium futures.
Have you thought how much Lithium would be needed even for a small town? So you are now thinking this could be done for hundreds of millions?
Get an envelope work out how much Lithium per dwelling, and per car and per every other electronic battery device.
Now check that amount of Lithium against known world wide reserves.
While lithium is fairly common, there is a problem with lithium batteries that greatly reduces their number of charge/discharge cycles. Every time you do on, you cause a dendrite to grow a bit from one of the electrodes. When it hits the other electrode, the battery shorts out. That is ok if you are talking only having the battery for a couple/several years. You will dump the laptop or whatever before the battery quits on you. Not so good with a solar system. You cannot afford to replace the battery every 5 years. Even worse, if the battery shorts out, you have a bomb on your hands. Lead acid also fails eventually due to the sludge at the bottom of the cells, but the fail is less catastrophic and takes longer. My lead acid cells are probably good for 20 years given they are the highest grade industrial cells I could buy and have been shown to have that sort of lifetime. The downside of lead acid is that they are not maintenance free and you have to deal with the hydrogen, etc. that vents out of them. I think my lead acid 100 KWH bank is about the same cost and same total volume as the “musk wonder” with an equivalent amount of storage and will last several times as long as it would.
Musk harvests subsidies, not a lot more. Like P. T. Barnum, people pay to see the show. Nothing against solar or wind properly deployed, but the economics are not what folks think they are.
@IanW:
One can just as easily make Potassium Ion batteries and Magnesium Ion batteries are proven (though not commercial yet). There are dozens of alternative battery chemistries that are show to be about as good as Lithium, or better. As soon as lithium costs too much, the others will substitute. (Already are in some cases).
With that said:
There are also already many battery chemistries that are cheaper than Lithium and work just as well in stationary applications. THE one feature of Lithiums is the light weight in mobile (cars) applications. Not relevant to my garage wall… So (as pointed out below and in the posting I did on this referenced below) simple deep cycle lead acid batteries are about 1/3 the cost, while the old Edison Cell Ni-Fe battery has a multi-decade life span for about the same cost (less in bulk) and are still used in such applications.
This is just a Subsidy Farm for Musk, not a game changer.
Complete and utter crap
Alas, I tend to agree. They will store ‘up to’ 10kWh of energy for $3500? SO to run a 2kW radiator for 5 hours will cost you $280 at 8% interest – about 15c/kWh just for the storage component. This price will undoubtedly come down, but it is not cheap storage – and there will need to be capacity in excess of demand to charge the battery.
Another company already offers such battery systems , at a significantly lower cost that Tesla. No thanks, Tesla.
Right. The idea that this is innovative or new is … well, suckered by good PR.
It’s an amazing thing only if he gets the cost down. Hasnt done that yet.
50 years ago I worked summers on the railroad Signal department. Mostly trimming weeds and trees. At that time they had four large lead acid batteries in the bottom of each of the crossing guard control system. There were a rectangular glass jar about 12 inch wide, 18 inch long and two feet high and Each of these had dates of instillation on them. Other than those that were replaced due to cars hitting the control cabinet every one of them I saw was over 20 years old. About every five years we would pump out any sludge from the bottom, like you might do in a fish tank, with a glass – turkey baster – looking device. The Signalman I worked for said that many of these batteries were over 40 years old. On the other hand, I have never had a battery in any power tool of any type last longer than four years – and I am retired and only use these tools as a hobby, Same for all of the LiIon batteries in my many laptops/cellphones.
I’m off grid and use 6 volt golf cart batteries. Assume 5 years max and that at 20% discharge nightly. Increase that to 50% and figure 3 years and that’s if you don’t screw something up. Sorry but that’s pretty much the facts of life. Solar is great but batteries suck.
@Steven McDonald. These large glass lead acid batteries only use the same type of electrodes and acid. In my 20 years of service in the Nuclear Navy on submarines I only knew of on Battery replacement (Battery meaning the entire set). Yes, occasional an individual cell needed replacement but most of the time there were extenuating circumstances for this replacement. They usually lasted the life of the sub and then some. When the sub was decommissioned the battery (all of the cells)m were salvaged reconditioned and used again. Same for the Emergency batteries that are at every Nuclear Power plant. These cells can be cleaned, and sort of flushed out [like a radiator flus or transmission flush at your local auto repair shop.] I have done this to my car battery and gotten another two years from a standard cheap car battery. Just empty the dirty sludgy acid, flush out with distilled water three or four times, fill with NEW acid, recharge. This has recovered the bad individual cell in a 12 volt battery giving me full power and voltage from the battery. The glass jars in industrial cells just make it easer and let you see the sludge in the bottom.
“Tesla is currently taking orders for the systems, with the first units expected to shift in August.”
You may want to wait, before thanking them, until they actually build and ship a product. In addition, though the company web page says these batteries are warrantied for ten years, I cannot find any specifics about what the warranty covers.
Not to worry Janice, the hype fits the needs for Paris in December and that is what is important right now. After Paris we will start to learn if these batteries change anything very much.
Sounds like the return of “vaporware”.
So, the on-demand power bank, that holds a buck worth of electricity, costs 100 bucks a month. I imagine each pack comes with a nifty decal for my front door, though.
And I’ll strap a massive heat-sensitive fire hazard to the side of my house? I like the idea of the battery, but I’d never put a giant block of lithium anywhere on my property.
This is potentially good news as Eric Worrall said – How ever your right, lithium-ion batteries have a dark side = fire and explosion potential, a degrading life span. Also ask the people in snow country how the Solar panels stood up to 2 to 6 feet of snow on the roof, Stressing the panels, roof mounting brackets and the roofing material causing stress leaks (shingles /tiles etc…) or the panel performance when they get dirty???
Just asking?
Snow country here. We have a metre of snow on the roof from end of December to early March. No solar panels here. Nope, not going to happen.
Lower electric bills, higher insurance premiums. Yeah, sounds like a GREAT idea.
Especially if the lithium container is breached and water gets introduced to the lithium. Water on lithium makes a fire much bigger and spectacular.
I don’t think the firemen would be amused when chunks of molten lithium are blown out of the battery and lands on the firemen (& fireladies).
I would expect that new building codes would require lithium batteries located in a separate building built out of reinforced concrete or cinderblock open to the sky.
So much for off the grid.
Anyway the batteries are still far to expensive for me.
There have been several reports lately of the problems caused by solar panels during a fire.
I’ve been reading about some fire depts. talking about creating a standing policy of only fighting fires in building with such panels from the outside.
Between the danger of the inside wiring still being energized, to the additional weight causing roof collapses to be more likely, and more deadly, to the problems of trying to ventilate a roof covered by such panels, it just isn’t worth the risk to them.
More importantly, coal and gas power stations won’t have to keep burning to have back up power for erratic energy demand from “renewable” sources, if everyone who installs it also installs a battery.
However, from an environmental perspective,” renewables” just became more detrimental than fossil fuels (which are still needed to dig the toxic cocktails out of the ground, transport them, smelt them, manufacture them, install them, maintain them, repair them and eventually dispose of them)
+1,
The “hower ever, from an environmental perspective”…. that has been my biggest opposition against the so called renewables for years, there has never been that part of the equation talked about on the so called “green” side.
Hypocrites.
“coal and gas power stations won’t have to keep burning to have back up power …“.
Regrettably, that won’t be true for a long time yet. There will still be enforced unreliables on the grid. A big move off-grid simply means higher costs for retail consumers. Another “regrettably” is that the only reason this off-grid stuff can even remotely compete is the high power price created by the mandated unreliables. It’s a double whammy for the long suffering ordinary citizen.
Here in Oz there’s a battle going on in govt circles about whether to increase or cut the RET (renewable energy target) . Hopefully sanity will prevail, i.e. a cut.
And, then, there are taxes. Energy is highly taxed. It might be “political” to look the other way in some cases but, if this sort of thing takes off, it will be heavily taxed too.
Sorry wickedwenchfan, coal and gas stations run at their most efficient at rated power. They have to keep going.
However, combined cycle ng plants do not have to run continuously, they can start up and shut down quickly. Coal is another matter all together.
@ShrNfr
Where did you get that information? 40 Years experience in the electrical utility generation and I have never heard that. Yes, it does have a faster startup/shutdown time HOWEVER, the efficiency comes from the combined cycle part – that is steam generation from the waste heat, then the steam driving another generator. How long does it take for you to get heat out of you car heater on a cold day. 15 minutes, more? that would be great but it is longer. By the time the CCTG is at peak efficiency the storm cloud has passed or the wind is blowing and you don’t need it any more. Meanwhile you are using the power of just the gas turbine part of the generator and you need two to get the power of one working at full efficiency. Thus you are pumping just as much CO2 into the air as the dirty coal plants that the Envirowhacos want to get rid of. No net reduction in CO2 just double, triple the cost for electricity. Don call me nuts do some research and discover the FACGTS, not the propaganda.
Storage near $100/kWh is no big deal. We want <$10/kWh….
And this is about $350/kWh.
Some perspective here. The 10kWh can be used daily for solar and intermittently for wind power.
So if can handle 1,000 cycles, then the battery cost is $350/1000 or 35cent / KWh ???
Huh, only 3x my utility bill cost for electricity for the battery alone. The math doesnt add up.
Could be a big opportunity to save power company costs if the batteries can be optimized for load shifting to pull power from grid during low demand periods and running on battery during high demand periods, perhaps the integrated power management of the battery can be controlled by power companies as to when to draw power from grid or to run on stored power. Power companies may include these a premise equipment complementing the power meter, or provide a special rate for consumers who use load-shifting versions. Load shifting at premises could reduce the cost peak load requirements on power plants and distribution systems and thus save everyone money.
If everyone is charging their battery from the grid during the low demand period, when will the low demand period be?
“when will the low demand period be”
Exactly. Trim the peak, raise the valley, it’s for load leveling. I suspect they’ll only be economical in areas that have really high rates. I haven’t looked into what power they can output, but they probably can’t run your home without the grid either.
Is an Inverter included?
Paul,
“You can go to the Tesla website – wwwDOTtelsamotorsDOTcom/powerwall…..and see some of the limitations. There are several, but the important ones in my view are the “Power” rating of 2.0 kW continuous 3.3 kW peak and the “Installation” where it says AC-DC inverter not included.
What the “Power” limitation means, is if you want air conditioning….it better be a room air conditioner because that will take 1.1 kW. Central Air is more like 5 kW and way too big for one Tesla unit. You also probably do not want to cook anything, wash, iron, heat, dry your hair or a whole other list of things we take for granted. Google “household power requirements.” 2 KW….2000 watts…is not a lot of power.
The other big limitation is the “AC-DC inverter not included.” Since the battery is DC….and everything in your house is typically AC…..you need something to convert that power. You can buy a decent inverter built for solar panel systems for around $2000….so now your basic Tesla battery / inverter system that will run (1) hair dryer, a TV and your electric toothbrush costs you $5000….before paying for installation.”
If you are connected to PG&E in Southern CA, you can save 4 cents per kWh by charging at off peak times. A 10 kwh daily use Tesla battery will cost you $7000 installed with the required AC/DC inverter and will save you 40 cents per day. (10 kWh x 4 cents savings per kW)
And when should I charge my electric car?
@Ann Banisher
Yes I’m aware of residential power and energy requirements. And that this wouldn’t allow you to go off-grid, even with a massive lifestyle change. But I don’t expect rates to remain stable in the future, at some point this concept might be effective?
I’m not in CA so I’m guessing here. I pulled up the PG&E TOU rates March 2015. The basic energy charge Schedule E-7 Tier 1 off=peak – peak: $0.11129 – $0.35944 (yikes!) That’s ~$0.25 delta for summer. And you are correct on the $0.04 delta for the winter rate.
Assuming net metering, the investment would be better spent on PV.
BTW, I find the idea of the California Climate Credit amusing.
Paul,
Yeah, net metering would wipe out any benefit of peak offpeak saving.
I already have solar here is SoCal to insulate myself from future Ca Climate stupidity.
Unless I was off grid and wanted to piggyback 3 of these packs together, I can’t see the retail use of this.
As for utility scale use, if one $3500 wall pack of batteries will get you 3 hr of peak use of an average household, how big a facility would your average utility need to house that mountain of batteries?
And we haven’t even addressed lifespan and storage loss.
BTW, my rates for net metering are $.19/kWh base, $.29 tier 2, $.43 tier 3 & $.46 tier 4 (tier 2 kicks in at 150, 3 at 300, & 4 at 400/kWh per mo) talk about yikes!
A typical American household uses about 10,000 kWh yearly*, which would average out to about 27 kWh per day.
“…designed to capture and store up to 10kWh of energy from wind or solar panel. The reserves can be drawn on when sunlight is low, during grid outages, or at peak demand times, when electricity costs are highest.”
So, would you need three of these things to go “off grid”? That would be about $10,500 for independence… replaced every HOW often?!
I also wonder about whether his cost is based on the projections of what Musk’s “gigafactory” will do once it hits full stride, which may take years; and finally, whether, some of that production cost is factoring in start-up subsidies still being handed out for solar enterprises. Solar still looks like one of the most expensive energy sources, considering panels, converters, maintenance, batteries, and costs to the environment.
* Organization of American States Office of Sustainable Development
Ann, presumably you already have a DC to AC converter that came with the solar panel.
How will the power company save costs when they have to pay homeowners that are giving them electricity 5 times as much as it costs them to make electricity? And provide all the power distribution costs on top of that. Nuclear and Mine-mouth coal plants can make electricity for about $0.03 to $0.05 per kwh. Net meter programs make the utility pay the home owner $0.12 to $0.20 per kwh how does that save money. How long could you sell donuts if you sold donuts for $6.00 BUT had to by back any donuts the costumer brought back during the same day for $0.50 each?
There are other companies producing similar technologies. There is a company in Calgary, Alberta supplying control systems for LG systems. This is a potential winner for all parties – off grid, solar PV storage, wind storage, peaking storage in home, and someday, industrial, load balancing, remote site and developing nations, etc.
Elon Musk is a super promoter but this is an emerging technology that could help in a lot of areas once all the issues are worked out. But all technologies are like that.
150 years ago, who would have guessed that something as simple as reinventing Roman sewer and water systems would increase our life spans and reduce death and disease … and that we are still working on providing these services in the developing world.
Their website says a 10 year warranty – http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
… as long as you never charge them.
OK – So it costs $1 per day within its 10 year warranty. Double that to £2 to include a similarly-priced inverter (that likewise is likely to fail in that time) and installation costs.
Soooo, can anyone save $2 per day just on the difference between peak and low electricity costs now?
It’s certainly not a slam-dunk money saver.
“can anyone save $2 per day just on the difference between peak and low electricity costs now”
IF you peak rate is $0.30 kWh, and charged it with PV, your 10kWh battery potentially contains $3 worth of electrons, no?
IF they made system controls for a home battery, the PV inverter would become a DC/DC converter that feeds into the battery, and then use the battery’s inverter (DC/AC) to push power to the grid. That inverter would need to be bi-directional to pull power from the grid to charge the battery at night. It’s the same topology as a fuel cell vehicle.
You’ve also got to make the electricity to go in them: add the cost of the solar panels.
Tax Credit?
Re-election money.
Renewable energy Tax Credit.
Sure as the sun not shinning on a rainy day.
The quoted price for off the shelf technology i. e. Li-On batteries is waaay below the real-world cost. One can only assume the mug punter musk shareholder is the real loser, a regular Pt Barnum for the new millennium, Is that apple juice i whiff in your always half full glass?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2015/05/01/why-teslas-powerwall-is-just-another-toy-for-rich-green-people/
The developing world may be the biggest beneficiaries. An entire village could share one.
It would cost the entire village’s annual income.
When you are living hand to mouth using dung for fuel and ox carts for transport, with the nearest power line a few hundred miles away, being offered a garage wall battery is way up in the ‘let them eat cake’ level of understanding.
Certainly true right now, but on a national level compared with the costs of developing high voltage generation, distribution and transformer substations; a solar array and a really good battery could be a cheap way to light up a village.
Re gymnosperm
May 3, 2015 at 8:20 am
If you wish to keep that village a village and the people in poverty and in hoc to whoever paid for the batteries, PV cells, inverters etc., That of course is the current approach try to keep the poor in poverty and prevent development that reliable power could bring. Reliable real power would provide 24/7 refrigeration for medicines and veterinary supplies, as well as lights power for cooking, perhaps televisions for the entire village. No…… “pat villager patronizingly on the head’ it’s cheaper for us just to give you enough for lights at night and, as we gave it to you we expect your vote in exchange for our largesse.
How about a 12V DC system, a little windmill with a 90A altenator, a couple solar panels and a few 12V car batteries or equivalents …… and the villagers could live in their non-mobile RV with many of the comforts of home.
Wiring a structure (house) for 12VDC is a lot cheaper than wiring it for 110VAC. And just about every RV Dealer can sell you just about any type of appliance you want.
Samuel C Cogar says “How about a 12V DC system, a little windmill with a 90A altenator,(…).
90 Amps is for arc-welding – it’ll find any poor joint and make a fire. A 48V DC system is better
because it quarters the current (22.5A), so smaller switches, thinner wires and reasonably safe to handle. Above 50V DC you get into shock-hazard territory.
The best thing those villages could use has existed for more than 150 years – a windmill water pump with a tank at the top of the platform. Just like many plains state farms had before the Rural Electric Power act. Two of my great uncles had them.
They still make ’em
http://aermotorwindmill.com/windmills-towers-pumps-rods-and-replacement-parts/
Thanks! Had the Aeromotor pump on top of a 25ft wooden tower on the farm I grew up on. As I remember only had to replace a shear-pin that did its job, worked forever!
Wouldn’t it make as much sense to charge the battery from the grid during low cost power between midnight and dawn and draw on it during the high cost afternoon?
If it will store 10KWhr and take 1000 charge cycles (probably at 75% draw down) that is 7,500 KWhr per $3,500 battery. That means you need at least $0.47 / KWhr rate differential between the high cost afternoon and the midnight recharge. You would need to get 5000 cycles (14 years) out of the battery to bring the differential down below $0.10/KWhr
In Houston, TX, our electricity rates are in the neighborhood of $0.09 to $0.11 / KWhr – flat rate.
Stephen Rasey May 2, 2015 at 9:27 pm
Wouldn’t it make as much sense to charge the battery from the grid during low cost power between midnight and dawn and draw on it during the high cost afternoon?
My understanding is that’s one of the use cases being suggested. Two problems with that. The first, as your numbers show, is that you need a whopping difference in peak versus off peak costs to make that viable. The second problem is that widespread adoption would quite potentially be self defeating. If everybody tries to charge at midnight in order to use the electricity the next day, the peak (and hence any surcharges associated with the peak) then moves to…. midnight. Of course you wouldn’t get full adoption, nor would this be a solution for industry, so you may get some net benefit out of it. Too early to tell, and the things that could potentially go wrong with that much energy stored on the wall of your garage are pretty lengthy. As good as it sounds, just generating the stuff inexpensively in the first place seems much more rational.
Just when would the household be charging their electric cars?
This is not just a case of moving peaks, this is a case of rewiring entire neighborhoods.
The website says that the daily cycle model is only 7 KWhr at $3000 each, guaranteed for 10 years.
On that basis, you would get 3650 cycles for a total of 25,550 KWhr of storage. That gives a $0.12 / KWhr storage cost.
I wonder what those devices will do to your homeowners insurance (fire) cost? Probably minimal. If even as bad as 1 in 10,000 batteries catches fire over its life to put a $500K home at risk, that is only a $5 / yr / home surcharge.
That gives a $0.12 / KWhr storage cost.
+ shipping +mounting +integration into existing electrical system +inspection…,
This easily gets to double that.
And I expect the insurance companies will demand a much higher premium until there’s enough track record to assemble some meaningful statistics.
I can see some jurisdictions even regulating against them. First fire fighter that gets fried fighting a fire because of one of these things and look for serious push back…
David, the inverter alone for a solar system of the size to make this a viable proposition costs around £2,600 ($4,000).
” the inverter alone for a solar system of the size to make this a viable proposition costs around £2,600 ($4,000).”
I didn’t see where they gave power output, so it MIGHT only output 500-1,000 Watts.
It’s not just the fire you have to worry about. If the fire causes the case to crack or melt, and some water gets into those batteries, the possibility of explosion then exists, putting the lives of fire fighters at risk.
I’ve read that some fire departments are talking about possibly only fighting fires from the outside if they see solar panels on the roof.
And then there is the cost of the required inverter. That $1,200 – $2,000 for a 3.3 KW to 7 KW inverter system.
Forbes: Why Tesla’s Powerwall Is Just Another Toy For Rich Green People
by Christopher Helman
From what I have been reading about inverters it is recommended that to purchase a premium inverter. Prices for top line inverters start close to $2,000 and go up from there.
I’m off-grid. I paid £0.99 (yes, 99p!!!) for my inverter, off of eBay.
It’s 3KW pure sine wave.
It has been working reliably for over 8 years.
It’s powering my house now.
Here’s the trick – you just shop around for redundant UPS systems.
Problem solved.
Huge numbers of these units are scrapped, simply because people widely do not appreciate that they can be operated as stand alone inverters.
That article from Forbes has a very large misstatement of how much power an American home uses on average. The article says “The average American home draws an average of 1,200 watts of power around-the-clock, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.” but even the site cited says the average use is 909kwh per month which (if my math is correct) is 30 kwh per DAY and more to what my experience has been.
With those kinds of errors, one might wonder what else Mr. Helman got wrong in his article.
Jake check YOUR arrithmetic
@jakee308
1200 watt, 24 hours => 28.8 kWh. This is about 30 kWh as by your calculation. Where is the error?
Frog, your solution would only work so long as only a tiny fraction of the population was doing it. More than that and the supply of surplus parts dries up.
Business should be very good in Hawaii where the cost per kWh is 34 to 46 cents depending on which island you’re on. I’m not sure of the laws about living off the grid, but it would make sense considering the high price of electricity:
http://www.heco.com/portal/site/heco/menuitem.508576f78baa14340b4c0610c510b1ca/?vgnextoid=692e5e658e0fc010VgnVCM1000008119fea9RCRD&vgnextchannel=2c65a51aaabd6110VgnVCM1000005c011bacRCRD&vgnextfmt=defau&vgnextrefresh=1&level=0&ct=article
Sorry, Eric, but this is just more Tesla hype. 10 kilowatt hours of storage for $3,500? Not impressed. I can purchase today, off the shelf, a 12 kilowatt-hour battery designed for 20 years of solar storage use for $2,750.
Tesla’s battery is just another rich man’s toy, backed by lots of hype and publicity. Folks, you can buy more storage for less money, no problem, trucked to your door. Here’s one of many batteries on the market that give you more for less.
w.
It is only 12 volts in the link. Dryer use 220 volts 30 amps power.
Need an inverter ?
What am I missing here?
A clothes line.
Near as I can tell, both the battery I listed and the Tesla system would require an inverter.
Regards,
w.
Max Photon
May 2, 2015 at 10:05 pm
A clothes line.
So, you DO have stock in solar then?
I AM solar.
Whenever I read stories like this, I’m reminded of the scene from the movie Dumb and Dumber, when Jim Carrey’s character exclaims, “We landed on the moon”.!
Just a battery folks. No quantum leaps here.
Move along.
But it’s a fancy, sexy battery. Cool people will buy them. Made by Tesla.And gets great press (free publicity) because “green energy“.
PiperPaul,
Very funny. You hit the nail on the head.
By the way, love him or hate him, Alex Jones is pretty darn funny when he imitates chicken-neck trendies.
Alex’s Bill Gates Chicken-Neck Bastard Rant
I have been thinking about going with this company,s products for a solar/battery setup….http://www.rollsbattery.com/
They sound like they are durable easily maintained batteries with a good track record for longevity. I was thinking of going with their 3 of their 4 volt batteries which are rated at 1350 AH/20 hr each.
Should have known you’d know a better value deal Willis 🙂
What impressed me is that the push for cheaper off grid storage technology has the potential to cap electricity bills. If electricity suppliers start permanently haemorrhaging customer base every time they set the price up to stupid, they will start to show at least a little caution about their pricing.
What I said;
… around 1000 charge / discharge cycles, paying $3500 every 3 years is approaching price parity with some of the more ridiculous electricity utility charges …
My three year estimate was an underestimate – Harry Buttle discovered there is a 10 year warranty on the Tesla batteries (and a 20 year expected lifetime on the battery you linked).
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
Obviously this is never going to compete, if you are paying reasonable charges for reliable electricity. But if you are paying say Hawaii prices (Bob Dias’ links – 34c – 46c / KWh), or even some Australian prices (around 30c / KWh, more in some places https://www.yourpowerqld.com.au/energy-pricing-and-economy-rates/electricity-pricing-explained/201415-prices ), then having another option on the table, even if it is not quite price competitive with any but the most extreme cases, has to be a good thing.
Thanks for your comments, Eric.
The difficulty I have with Tesla is that it’s all hype. Their batteries are not cheaper. They are not new and improved. They are not even as good as any of a dozen other batteries.
In a previous post I discussed the oddity that the only technology from the 1800s that is almost entirely unchanged is the automobile battery. Nothing has ever beaten it … and as my example from above shows, that includes the Tesla battery. Technology from the eighteen hundreds still beats Tesla’s finest. Go figure
You claim that this represents some kind of milestone, viz:
But since what Tesla offers has been on offer for over a century, I find it hard to believe that Tesla changes anything. Even with cheaper technology, it hasn’t made inroads even in Hawaii unless it is subsidized.
You also say:
The problem with your numbers reminds me of the old sailor’s lament, which is “Yes, the wind is free … but everything else costs money”. In the same way, yes, the sun is free but everything else costs money.
And in this case, you’ve only included the money for the battery. You haven’t included the cost of the panels, or of the inverter, or of the wiring, or of the battery-to-grid phase-locking, or of the safety interlocks, or of the frames to mount the panels, or the skilled labor costs of the installation of all of the above, or of the maintenance of the same. You also haven’t included the costs of power for those times when your battery goes flat, which a 10 kWh battery will do in short order in the winter … unsubsidized solar is a great solution for niche markets. I lived off of the grid for a couple of years, and solar was my salvation. I ran a 24-volt system using a dozen of the big phone company 2-volt batteries, and it kept my lights going and my computer in operation.
But for replacing grid power? The only solar making inroads there is subsidized solar, and as someone who is paying the subsidies, I’m not impressed in the slightest.
Thanks for your post,
w.
If the batteries can last 10 years while cycling 7KWh per day, then the $3,000 price is looking like a good deal if the electric utilities are allowed to do net metering on a time of day basis. That works out to about 14 cents per KWh, which will likely be less than the difference in rates between 11am and 7pm.
My understanding is that the cycle life of Li-ion batteries is much longer if the batteries are cycled between 40 and 60% depth of discharge. This suggests that stabilizing the grid for wind generation may be even more cost effective than for solar as the batteries would potentially be cycled several times a day. This would require some sort of interaction with the utility, with Tesla’s business model is providing the signalling infrastructure for a fee.
In regards to Willis’s comments about lead acid batteries: The initial price per KWh of storage capacity is cheaper with the lead acid than Li-ion, but not quite so sure if cycle life-time energy storage is cheaper. The graph on the Trojan website indicated that the cycle lifetime was inversely proportional to depth of discharge (i.e. 25% DOD gives 2X the number of cycles as 50% DOD). One other knock against lead acid is the charge discharge efficiency is significantly poorer than Li-ion.
Seems to me that the next charge that the residential customer is going to see is the “electrical demand charge” (businesses are charged this to cap their electrical draw). So the upshot is that despite not “using” any grid energy most of the time, you will pay a substantial monthly fee to “reserve” backup power, unless you want to go dark.
If this technology was cost effective, Southern California Edison and Pacific Gas and Electric would be using it.. Also you don’t need an Al Gore mansion to burn through 10KWh quickly. If you need the air conditioning on and you cook dinner and breakfast you will blow through 10KWh in no time. Your solar panels only work from 10am to 5pm at full power. You need to be specially located in California for wind to work in your back yard.
These are 12V lead-acid. While cheaper and generally safer than Li-Ion, they are larger and much heavier. Wouldn’t be thatmuch of a detriment for home use though.
I agree, there is nothing earth-shuttering about Tesla’s batteries. It is more of a marketing issue that can mainstream batteries and turn them into accepted thing instead of something that only “off-grid crazys” would be interested in.
Willis,
12 kilowatt-hour $2,750 is still about $230 per 12 kW-hr, about 2/3 of the cost of Musk’s batteries. By the time you factor in an inverter and installation, the fractional difference in cost will be much less. In a few years it the cost will probably be the same since lead-acid batteries are a mature technology while Li-ion is relatively new and still improving. And Li-ion is much smaller and lighter.
The real issue is how many charge-discharge cycles you get. The link guarantees 1500 cycles for Pb-acid, that is 4 years if you cycle it every day. So you are looking at $0.16 per kW-hr just for the capital cost of the batteries. That is not competitive and it is not going to get better. I have not seen anything on how many cycles can be expected from Musk’s batteries, but I doubt it is even close to 1500.
Battery storage for load leveling is still not close to being economical. What is intriguing about Musk’s project is that it *might* get there whereas Pb-acid never will. And his hype and salesmanship means that he might be able to get rich people to pay for the development until it is cheap enough for the masses.
Much agree – existing lead acid battery banks been around for YEARS and are LOWER cost. I trying to figure out why using expensive lithium batteries in place of lower cost lead batteries makes any sense?
For a car (or laptop), then weight is a HUGE issue (and li-ion is rather lightweight), but for a pallet with some batteries on it for home use, the case for li-ion batteries makes little sense.
Of course building that massive plant (with lots of government funding and tax breaks) means that it makes business sense to “try” and sell such banks.
The main problem is lead-acid banks exist, are a mature technology and are cheaper, better choice and longer lasting.
Regards,
Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Hi Willis Eschenbach
I enjoy you take on things.
Just wondered if you had checked out LENR recently?
Mr Rossi has Got a LENR power plant in operation at this time.
So soon Tesla will be making steam powered cars.
Exactly Willis …. or I believe 9 or 10 standard deep cycle 12v marine batteries would give you the same effective power – for about $100 each.
The Tesla battery is all hype … it is nit revolutionary, it does not change the world, it does not make it any easier, more efficient or more likely that people can go solar (or wind) and most certainly is no game changer.
It is a hugely expensive plain old battery … in a pretty wrapper. Supported by a whole lotta pure hype – all hat, no cattle kida claims.
The average US home uses appx 30kWh per day … one of these will barely provide 1/3 of a single days avg usage. To provide even 3 days backup would require at least 10 of these – or realistically more (considering you cannot discharge them 100% without destroying them)… and 3 days is not enough to cover the regular periods where there is no sun and/or minimal wind for extended periods.
The ONLY hing they are really good for is IF enough home had them, then can perform some load shifting – with utilities drawing on them at peak demand periods ad then recharging them during cheaper off peak hours.
Can this be far behind?
http://dilbert.com/strip/2009-04-28
Power: 2.0 kW continuous, 3.3 kW peak. yay, hooray- i can run the toaster- but not the fridge…
i’d have to spend 7000$ to run the fridge.
well, i’d have to spend 7k for a promise, at least. actually running the fridge is still just pie in the sky.
is it not a red flag warning when somebody is selling, with great fanfare, something that does not yet exist?
i’m sure he’s done the numbers, though- would be interesting to see how much of the accounting depends on money piped in from the taxpayers’ main vein.
all this tell and no show… it has a certain familiarity…
… and don’t even think about running a 3-ton air conditioner. Much less two of them.
Other way around. Toasters run twice+ the wattage of a fridge.
I wouldn’t put it up the wall… since entire solar installations get stolen from roofs, how convenient would it be to just take it off the wall? Hope it comes with GPS tracker and alarm…
Those extras require another battery.
You can save a ton of money … if you don’t count the costs.
Max Photon — you got it exactly. == Eugene WR Gallun
Yes. I didn’t buy a Ferrari today and I’m still wondering what to do with the money I saved.
Tomorrow I think I’ll not buy two Ferraris. At this rate I’ll soon be rich.
“Tomorrow I think I’ll not buy two Ferraris. At this rate I’ll soon be rich”
Hmm, similarities. Do you happen to work as a climate scientist?
Tesla Home Battery Hype
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2015/05/01/tesla-home-battery-hype/
So is this a giant breakthrough in $/kWh of storage? Let’s see…
————————————————————————————————-
Why Tesla’s Powerwall Is Just Another Toy For Rich Green People
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2015/05/01/why-teslas-powerwall-is-just-another-toy-for-rich-green-people/
“And here’s where the economics of the Powerwall break down. If you do not have a big enough solar system to get your home entirely off the grid, then there is simply no point whatsoever in paying 30 cents per kwh to get electricity via the Powerwall. At night, when you’re not generating solar power, you could simply get your electricity from the grid. For an average 12.5 cents a kwh.
I’ll say it another way: unless your solar-powered home is entirely disconnected from the grid, or your solar system is big enough to provide for all your electricity needs, an expensive battery backup system like Powerwall does not make economic sense.”
————————————————————————————————-
I guess that “not making economic sense” thing is what guarantees it success amongst
– Obamas subsidies ranking and other carpetbagger programmes
– the low information Green voters
As others have said: How are these “low cost”? 4 lead acid deep cycle 6 V batteries, 420 amp hours per battery cost me $1600 (Canadian). Suitable for use with my 2 110 watt panels. I still need to run my generator whenever I have a serious power draw (such as a toaster). Not to mention lead is recycled, but lithium isn’t. As Willis says. More Tesla hype.
If I could get a 1.5 to 2kiwh battery I’d be in the market for one of these, price being acceptable. I’m a low power user, have solar hot water and wood fired heating and have a 1.5kw grid connect solar system. Half of the power from the grid connect system goes back into the grid, I consume the other half. I get paid for the half that goes back into the grid.
I’m in the process of setting up an additional solar (with battery storage) system, more as a project than for any other reason. Unfortunately the 7kwh and 10 kwh batteries are much bigger than I need and way outside my financial capacity. I guess I will be buying 1kwh worth of solar gel or AGM batteries to do the job that I want. I’m open to any other “polite” and useful suggestions.
Ted, get a scrap Prius battery. About USD 150. car may be a write off but the battery good. Make sure it comes complete with all safetys etc
Take a look at these batteries…http://www.rollsbattery.com/
Check out Aquion Energy. link
These batteries are designed for stationary use and thus can be relatively large and heavy. No hazmat or rare materials are used. As far as I can tell, the performance equals or exceeds Tesla’s. They are much cheaper than Tesla batteries (close to the cost of lead-acid).
Of course now Aquion, Rolls and others will be able to increase prices. They may have to put existing product in a fancy case with blinking lights in order to compete on esthetics though.
@ur momisugly Piper… I have noticed that Rolls has increased the price on all of their products from what it was last year, by a substantial amount to boot. That is unfortunate, and I see that as a business mistake on their part. It equates to a similar issue that Hughes Sat had with their pricing range and limited features with their service. Would you rather have 1 million customers paying high prices, or would you rather have 50 million satisfied customers making a reasonable monthly payment?
Hello to all.
I read the article here on WUWT, then I went to the Tesla website ….
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
…. and read through their material.
Here is the opening paragraph from their web page:
-begin cut & paste-
Powerwall is a home battery that charges using electricity generated from solar panels, or when utility rates are low, and powers your home in the evening. It also fortifies your home against power outages by providing a backup electricity supply. Automated, compact and simple to install, Powerwall offers independence from the utility grid and the security of an emergency backup.
-end cut & paste-
Ok, sounds like a clean, complete, automatic power storage unit.
Accepts power from the line, or solar panels, etc, stores the power, then provides useable power when needed.
However……
On the Specifications, an item caught my eye.
Here are the specs, cut & pasted from the Tesla webpage:
-begin cut & paste-
Technology Wall mounted, rechargeable lithium ion battery with liquid thermal control.
Models 10 kWh $3,500 For backup applications 7 kWh $3,000 For daily cycle applications
Warranty 10 years
Efficiency 92% round-trip DC efficiency
Power 2.0 kW continuous, 3.3 kW peak
Voltage 350 – 450 volts
Current 5.8 amp nominal, 8.6 amp peak output
Compatibility Single phase and three phase utility grid compatible.
Operating Temperature -4°F to 110°F / -20°C to 43°C
Enclosure Rated for indoor and outdoor installation.
Installation Requires installation by a trained electrician. DC-AC inverter not included.
Weight 220 lbs / 100 kg
Dimensions 51.2″ x 33.9″ x 7.1″
1300 mm x 860 mm x 180 mm
Certification NRTL listed to UL standardsdo
-end cut & paste-
What stands out to me is ‘Installation’, where it specifically states “DC-AC inverter not included” (!)
Having repaired a neighbor’s sailboat power system, I learned very quickly that the inverter/converter is an expensive unit! The specifications state that this is not included.
Does this have to be purchased separately?
As furnished by Tesla, does this unit provide 60-cycle AC power, as one would assume from the smooth-reading opening paragraph, or as the specifications state, 350 – 450 volts (DC? The spec sheet does not specify AC or DC, but I have never seen an ‘AC’ battery!)
What’s the scoop?
Anyone?……
Voltage 350 – 450 volts
If there was an inverter included, its would output would be standard household voltage or there would be no point including it. And as your cut/paste says, it doesn’t.
They seem to be glossing over charging system as well. If your going to charge from the grid off peak, you’ll also need an AC to DC converter that puts out the same voltage as the battery, 450 volts! The more we learn the sillier this thing gets.
350 – 450 V/DC? Strewth! Some rail transport systems uses DC power not too much more than that. I would not like to have one of those stuck on ANY wall in a house. I saw an article on an Aussie MSM website. The article included no details about the system at all, just how much it cost and how much was being invested. As has been said in other posts, it’s just an expensive toy for rich boys.
As has already been said, there are plenty of deep-cycle, lead-acid batteries available which, IMO, would provide a proven, reliable and safe storage system.
[I]t’s just a
ntaxpayer-subsidized, expensive toy for rich boys.Aargh, I fugged-up the italics below.
[I]t’s just a
ntaxpayer-subsidized expensive toy for rich boys.Remember to close your HTML tags:
Insert drivel here
Aargh, it at my newly-invented HTML aargh tags!
(Another good joke consumed by the internet.)
Question based on the specs you pasted, specifically: “Operating Temperature -4°F to 110°F / -20°C to 43°C”
Doesn’t that rule out places that are fantastic for solar, such as Arizona (Phoenix averages 113-115 F in summertime) and the lower Nevada desert?
Also means you can’t place it outside anywhere much north of the Mason/Dixon line.
3500? Hot D@mn! Add that to the cost of my array, plus the charge controller and sine wave inverter and my system pays for itself in 15 years!!! Woohoo!!!!!
Did you factor in having to replace the batteries every 10 years?
The $100 a month for the battery is just part of the cost of course. You still need a few of those solar panels plastered to your roof, lots of wire and controls, switches, etc. So unless your power bills are among the highest in the US, or you really need to be off-grid, the economics don’t work. Power here, for example, is about .09/KWh, so it won’t be too attractive to us.
Musk’s business relies on government largess to succeed. This is no different.
So you go off grid. Instead of off peak hot water at its hottest in the morning you run it at 3pm. Because it’s way too big a drain for late night.
What if we have a string of cloudy, rainy or snowy days? Are people going to be left to have no power at all?
Are they going to go off grid in the long summer days but then reconnect mid winter? If so, no grid charges for 8-9 months a year is going to annoy utilities immensely. They should have the wires physically removed and serve the same waiting period to switch back on.