On the futility of climate models: 'simplistic nonsense'

Guest essay by Leo Smith – elevated from a comment left on WUWT on January 6, 2015 at 2:11 am (h/t to dbs)

edsel-fine-engineering

As an engineer, my first experience of a computer model taught me nearly all I needed to know about models.

I was tasked with designing a high voltage video amplifier to drive a military heads up display featuring a CRT.

Some people suggested I make use of the acoustic coupler to input my design and optimise it with one of the circuit modelling programs they had devised. The results were encouraging, so I built it. The circuit itself was a dismal failure.

Investigation revealed the reason instantly: the model parametrised parasitic capacitance into a simple single value: the reality of semiconductors is that the capacitance varies with applied voltage – an effect made use of in every radio today as the ‘varicap diode’. for small signals this is an acceptable compromise. Over large voltage swings the effect is massively non linear. The model was simply inadequate.

Most of engineering is to design things so that small unpredictable effects are swamped by large predictable ones. Any stable design has to work like that. If it doesn’t, it ain’t stable. Or reproducible.

That leads to a direct piece of engineering wisdom: If a system is not dominated by a few major feedback factors, it ain’t stable. And if it has a regions of stability then perturbing it outside those regions will result in gross instability, and the system will be short lived.

Climate has been in real terms amazingly stable. For millions of years. It has maintained an average of about 282 degrees absolute +- about 5 degrees since forever.

So called ‘Climate science’ relies on net positive feedback to create alarmist views – and that positive feedback is nothing to do with CO2 allegedly: on the contrary it is a temperature change amplifier pure and simple.

If such a feedback existed, any driver of temperature, from a minor change in the suns output, to a volcanic eruption must inevitably trigger massive temperature changes. But it simply never has. Or we wouldn’t be here to spout such nonsense.

With all simple known factors taken care of the basic IPCC style equation boils down to:

∆T = λ.k.log( ∆CO2)

where lambda (λ) is the climate sensitivity that expresses the presupposed propensity of any warming directly attributable to CO2 (k.log(CO2)) radiative forcing and its resultant direct temperature change to be amplified by some unexplained and unknown feedback factor, which is adjusted to match such late 20th century warming as was reasonably certain.

Everyone argues over the value of lambda. No one is arguing over the actual shape of the equation itself.

And that is the sleight of hand of the IPCC…arguments about climate sensitivity are pure misdirection away from the actuality of what is going on.

Consider an alternative:

∆T = k.log( ∆CO2) + f(∆x)

In terms of matching late 20th century warming, this is equally as good, and relies merely on introducing another unknown to replace the unknown lambda, this time not as a multiplier of CO2 driven change, but as a completely independent variable.

Philosophically both have one unknown. There is little to choose between them.

Scientifically both the rise and the pause together fit the second model far better.

Worse, consider some possible mechanisms for what X might be….

∆T = k.log( ∆CO2) + f(∆T).

Let’s say that f(∆T) is in fact a function whose current value depends on non linear and time delayed values of past temperature. So it does indeed represent temperature feedback to create new temperatures!

This is quite close to the IPCC model, but with one important proviso. The overall long term feedback MUST be negative, otherwise temperatures would be massively unstable over geological timescales.

BUT we know that short term fluctuatons of quite significant values – ice ages and warm periods – are also in evidence.

Can long term negative feedback create shorter term instability? Hell yes! If you have enough terms and some time delay, it’s a piece of piss.

The climate has all the elements needed. temperature, and water. Water vapour (greenhouse gas: acts to increase temperatures) clouds (reduce daytime temps, increase night time temps) and ice (massive albedo modifiers: act to reduce temperatures) are functions of sea and air temperature, and sea and air temperature are a function via albedo and greenhouse modifiers, of water vapour concentrations. Better yet, latent heat of ice/water represents massive amounts of energy needed to effect a phase transition at a single temperature. Lots of lovely non-linearity there. Plus huge delays of decadal or multidecadal length in terms of ocean current circulations and melting/freezing of ice sheets and permafrost.

Not to mention continental drift, which adds further water cycle variables into the mix.

Or glaciation that causes falling sea levels, thus exposing more land to lower the albedo where the earth is NOT frozen, and glaciation that strips water vapour out of the air reducing cloud albedo in non glaciated areas.

It’s a massive non linear hugely time delayed negative feedback system. And that’s just water and ice. Before we toss in volcanic action, meteor strikes, continental drift. solar variability, and Milankovitch cycles…

The miracle of AGW is that all this has been simply tossed aside, or considered some kind of constant, or a multiplier of the only driver in town, CO2.

When all you know is linear systems analysis everything looks like a linear system perturbed by an external driver.

When the only driver you have come up with is CO2, everything looks like CO2.

Engineers who have done control system theory are not so arrogant. And can recognise in the irregular sawtooth of ice age temperature record a system that looks remarkably like a nasty multiple (negative) feed back time delayed relaxation oscillator.

Oscillators don’t need external inputs to change, they do that entirely within the feedback that comprises them. Just one electron of thermal noise will start them off.

What examination of the temperature record shows is that glaciation is slow. It takes many many thousands of years as the ice increases before the lowest temperatures are reached, but that positive going temperatures are much faster – we are only 10,000 years out of the last one.

The point finally is this: To an engineer, climate science as the IPCC have it is simplistic nonsense. There are far far better models available, to explain climate change based on the complexity of water interactions with temperature. Unfortunately they are far too complex even for the biggest of computers to be much use in simulating climate. And have no political value anyway, since they will essentially say ‘Climate changes irrespective of human activity, over 100 thousand year major cycles, and within that its simply unpredictable noise due to many factors none of which we have any control over’


UPDATE: An additional and clarifying comment has been posted by Leo Smith on January 6, 2015 at 6:32 pm

Look, this post was elevated (without me being aware…) from a blog comment typed in in a hurry. I accept the formula isn’t quite what I meant, but you get the general idea OK?

If I had known it was going to become a post I’d have taken a lot more care over it.

Not used k where it might confuse,. Spotted that delta log is not the same as log delta..

But the main points stand:

(i) The IPCC ‘formula’ fits the data less well than other equally simple formulae with just as many unknowns.

(ii) The IPCC formula is a linear differential equation.

(iii) There is no reason to doubt that large parts of the radiative/convective thermal cycle/balance of climate are non linear.

(iv) There are good historical reasons to suppose that the overall feedback of the climate system is negative, not positive as the IPCC assumes.

(v) given the number of feedback paths and the lags associated with them, there is more than enough scope in the climate for self generated chaotic quasi-periodic fluctuations to be generated even without any external inputs beyond a steady sun.

(vi) Given the likely shape of the overall real climate equation, there is no hope of anything like a realistic forecast ever being obtained with the current generation of computer systems and mathematical techniques. Chaos style equations are amongst the hardest and most intractable problems we have, and indeed there may well be no final answer to climate change beyond a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil and tipping the climate into a new ice age, or a warm period, depending 😉

(vii) A point I didn’t make: a chaotic system is never ‘in balance’, and even its average value has little meaning, because its simply a mathematical oddity – a single point on a range where the system never rests – it merely represents a point between the upper and lower bounds; Worse, is system with multiple attractors, it may not even be anywhere near where the systems orbits fr any length of time.

In short my current thinking says :

– there is no such thing as a normal climate, nor does it have a balance that man has disturbed , or could disturb. Its constantly changing and may go anywhere from ice age to seriously warm over extremely long periods of time. It does this all by itself. There need be no external drivers to move it from one attractor to another or cause it to orbit any given attractor. That climate changes is unarguable, that anything beyond climate itself is causing it, is deeply doubtful. That CO2 has a major effect is, on the data, as absurd as claiming that CO2 has no effect at all.

What we are looking at here is very clever misdirection cooked up for economic and political motives: It suited many peoples books to paint CO2 emissions as a scary pollutant, and a chance temporary correlation of rising temperatures and CO2 was combined in a linear way that any third rate scientist could understand to present a plausible formula for scary AGW. I have pointed out that other interpretations of the data make a non scary scenario, and indeed, post the Pause,. actually fit the data better.

Occam’s razor has nothing to say in defence of either.

Poppers falsifiability is no help because the one model – the IPCC – has been falsified. The other can make no predictions beyond ‘change happens all by itself in ways we cannot hope to predict’. So that cannot be falsified. If you want to test Newton’s laws the last experiment you would use is throwing an egg at a spike to predict where the bits of eggshell are going to land….

Net result is climate science isn’t worth spending a plugged nickel on, and we should spend the money on being reasonably ready for moderate climate change in either direction. Some years ago my business partner – ten years my junior wanted to get key man insurance in case I died or fell under a bus. ‘How much for how much’ ‘well you are a smoker, and old, so its a lot’ It was enough in fact to wipe out the annual profits, and the business, twice over. Curiously he is now dead from prostate cancer, and I have survived testicular cancer, and with luck, a blocked coronary artery. Sometimes you just take te risk because insuring against it costs more … if we had been really serious about climate change we would be 100% nuclear by now. It was proven safe technology and dollar for dollar has ten times the carbon reduction impact than renewables. But of course carbon reduction was not the actual game plan. Political control of energy was. Its so much easier and cheaper to bribe governments than compete in a free market…

.

IF – and this is something that should be demonstrable – the dominant feedback terms in the real climate equations are non linear, and multiple and subject to time delay, THEN we have a complex chaotic system that will be in constant more or less unpredictable flux.

And we are pissing in the wind trying to model it with simple linear differential equations and parametrised nonsense.

The whole sleight of hand of the AGW movement has been to convince scientists who do NOT understand non linear control theory, that they didn’t NEED to understand it to model climate, and that any fluctuations MUST be ’caused’ by an externality, and to pick on the most politically and commercially convenient one – CO2 – that resonated with a vastly anti-science and non-commercial sentiment left over from the Cold War ideological battles . AGW is AgitProp, not science. AGW flatters all the worst people into thinking they are more important than they are. To a man every ground roots green movement has taken a government coin, as have the universities, and they are all dancing to the piper who is paid by the unholy aggregation of commercial interest, political power broking and political marketing.

They bought them all. They couldn’t however buy the climate. Mother Nature is not a whore.

Whether AGW is a deliberate fraud, an honest mistake, or mere sloppy ignorant science is moot. At any given level it is one or the other or any combination.

What it really is, is an emotional narrative, geared to flatter the stupid and pander to their bigotry, in order to make them allies in a process that if they knew its intentions, they would utterly oppose,.

Enormous damage to the environment is justified by environmentalists because the Greater Cause says that windmills and solar panels will Save the Planet. Even when its possible to demonstrate that they have almost no effect on emissions at all, and it is deeply doubtful if those emissions are in any way significant anyway.

Green is utterly anti-nuclear. Yet which- even on their own claims – is less harmful, a few hundred tonnes of long lived radionuclides encased in glass and dumped a mile underground, or a billion tonnes of CO2?

Apparently the radiation which hasn’t injured or killed a single person at Fukushima, is far far more dangerous than the CO2, because Germany would rather burn stinking lignite having utterly polluted its rivers in strip mining it, than allow a nuclear power plant to operate inside its borders .

Years ago Roy Harper sang

“You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink

You can lead a man to slaughter, but you’ll never make him think”

 

I had a discussion with a gloomy friend today. We agreed the world is a mess because people don’t think, they follow leaders, trends, emotional narratives, received wisdom.. Never once do they step back and ask, ‘what really is going on here?’. Another acquaintance doing management training in the financial arena chalked up on the whiteboard “Anyone who presages a statement with the words ‘I think’ and then proceeds to regurgitate someone else’s opinions, analysis or received wisdom, will fail this course and be summarily ejected’

And finally Anthony, I am not sure I wanted that post to become an article. I dont want to be someone else’s received wisdom. I want the buggers to start thinking for themselves.

If that means studying control theory systems analysis and chaos mathematics then do it. And form your own opinions.

“Don’t follow leaders, watch your parking meters”

I say people don’t think. Prove me wrong. Don’t believe what I say, do your own analysis. Stop trusting and start thinking.

I’ll leave you with a final chilling thought. Consider the following statement:

“100% of all media ‘news’ and 90% of what is called ‘science’ and an alarming amount of blog material is not what is the case, or even what people think is the case, but what people for reasons of their own, want you to think is the case”

Finally, if I ever get around to finishing it, for those who ask ‘how can it be possible that so many people are caught up in what you claim to be a grand conspiracy or something of that nature?’ I am on the business of writing a philosophical, psychological and social explanation. It entitled ‘convenient lies’ And it shows that bigotry prejudice stupidity and venality are in fact useful techniques for species survival most of the time.

Of course the interesting facet is the ‘Black Swan’ times, when it’s the most dangerous thing in the world.

Following the herd is safer than straying off alone. Unless the herd is approaching the cliff edge and the leaders are more concerned with who is following them than where they are going…

AGW is one of the great dangers facing mankind, not because its true, but because it is widely believed, and demonstrably false.

My analysis of convenient lies shows that they are most dangerous in times of deep social and economic change in society, when the old orthodoxies are simply no good.

I feel more scared these days than at any time in the cold war. Then one felt that no one would be stupid enough to start world war three. Today, I no longer have that conviction. Two generations of social engineering aimed at removing all risk and all need to actually think from society has led to a generation which is stupid enough and smug enough and feels safe enough to utterly destroy western civilisation simply because they take it totally for granted. To them the promotion of the AGW meme is a success story in terms of political and commercial marketing. The fact that where they are taking us over a cliff edge into a new dark age, is something they simply haven’t considered at all.

They have socially engineered risk and dissent out of society. For profit. Leaving behind a population that cannot think for itself, and has no need to. Its told to blindly follow the rules.

Control system theory says that that, unlike the climate, is a deeply unstable situation.

Wake up, smell the coffee. AGW is simply another element in a tendency towards political control of everything, and the subjugation of the individual into the mass of society at large. No decision is to be taken by the individual, all is to be taken by centralised bureaucratic structures – such as the IPCC. The question is, is that a functional and effective way to structure society?

My contention is that its deeply dangerous. It introduces massive and laggy overall centralised feedback, Worse, it introduces a single point of failure. If central government breaks down or falters, people simply do not know what to do any more. No one has the skill or practice in making localised decisions anymore.

The point is to see AGW and the whole greenspin machine as just an aspect of a particular stage in political and societal evolution, and understand it in those terms. Prior to the age of the telegraph and instantaneous communications, government had to be devolved – the lag was too great to pass the decisions back to central authority. Today we think we can, but there is another lag – bureaucratic lag. As well as bureaucratic incompetence.

System theory applied to political systems, gives a really scary prediction. We are on the point of almost total collapse, and we do not have the localised systems in place to replace centralised structures that are utterly dysfunctional. Sooner or later an externality is going to come along that will overwhelm the ability of centralized bureaucracy to deal with it, and it will fail. And nothing else will succeed, because people can no longer think for themselves.

Because they were lazy and let other people do the thinking for them. And paid them huge sums to do it, and accepted the results unquestioningly.

Happy new year

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philincalifornia
January 6, 2015 10:32 pm

First line in the Job Description of Nick Stokes’s contract:
You will turn every non-conforming post on man-made climate change into an exercise in mental masturbation

bonanzapilot
Reply to  philincalifornia
January 6, 2015 10:45 pm

He’s doing it well….

Another Ian
January 6, 2015 10:39 pm
January 6, 2015 10:56 pm

“But it simply never has. Or we wouldn’t be here to spout such nonsense.”
Never is a long time for geology and geophysics and should be for climatology too..
COSMIC RAYS AND CLIMATE by Jasper Kirkby, CERN, Geneva, Switzerland
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0804.1938.pdf
Celestial driver of Phanerozoic climate? by Nir J. Shaviv and Ján Veizer,
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/enviropol/EnviroPhilo/Phanerozoic.pdf
A more accessible entry to cosmo-climatology is by: Svensmark and Calder, The Chilling Stars, Icon Books UK, 2007. (In Canada: Penguin Books)
More here: http://thecloudmystery.com/The_Cloud_Mystery/Home.html

4TimesAYear
January 6, 2015 11:07 pm

Can someone please make sure this gets presented at a Congressional/Senatorial hearing with the EPA present. There are some good guys on those panels that need to hear this.

mpainter
January 6, 2015 11:16 pm

Climate sensitivity is the pseudo-science behind all of AGW. It is usually expressed as the temperature increase °K/ doubling of atm. CO2. Its derivation is based on a string of unverifiable assumptions, and has been variously figured at values ranging from 0.5 °K to over 8 ° K, according to the lights of who does the figuring.
And figures don’t lie, do they?
But the truth is that the late warming trend circa1977-97 was due to increased insolation, as cloud data shows.
Starting in the mid-eighties, global cloud coverage has decreased:
decrease in clouds—>decrease in cloud albedo—>increased insolation
Pretty straightforward. A number of studies have addressed this decrease in global cloud coverage. One of these, by John McLean, was posted on WUWT several months ago.
So AGW has been knocked in the head by cloud data and is now yesterday’s bugaboo.
Wonderful stuff, that CO2; what would we do without it?

bonanzapilot
Reply to  mpainter
January 6, 2015 11:45 pm

Easy to say when you are preaching to the choir. I suggest it’s time to redouble efforts toward the gathered public, which is looking for facts, not one-upsmanship…

hunter
Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 7, 2015 4:20 am

If the people concerned with climate were looking for facts we would have nothing to be concerned about. Hansen, Mann, Gore, Obama would all be laughing stock for their claims regarding climate. Oreskes would be a disreputable hack and Ehrlich would be a minor footnote and warning about integrity.

Ivor Ward
January 7, 2015 1:31 am

Frankly my dear, the gathered public don’t give a damn.
If you look around at the overwhelming silence that greeted the carefully cobbled up and gleeful announcement of the “HOTTEST!!!! YEAR EVAHHH!!!” by those that crunch, adjust, tweak and fudge the numbers then the overall response was eff off. Apart from the climate faithful the remarks and comments wherever it was written could generally be summed up as “so what”. It would seem that the climate beauty has lost her pizzazz, her allure is fading, the cracks are showing. Time to move on to the next “OHMYGOD IT’S THE END OF THE WORLD” scare. I am excited to know what it will be. Must get in early on the funding stream.

bigtrev
Reply to  Ivor Ward
January 7, 2015 1:46 am

it is already here – Ocean Acidification

bonanzapilot
Reply to  Ivor Ward
January 7, 2015 1:52 am

CAGW has political and funding momentum, highly entrenched vested interests, and the “save the planet” folks looking for a purpose in life. I’d be cautious with complacency.

Non Nomen
Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 7, 2015 2:28 am

These “save the planet” folks are having double fun: they enjoy Halloween every day by frightening people stiff and making good profit out of it. Some occasional travel for free to nice places is the icing of those rotten fruitcakes. The scariest scaremongers are those ‘scientists’ that tweak, pasteurize, sterilize and manipulate data to make their living out of that fudge.
Disgusting.

rtj1211
January 7, 2015 1:47 am

It’s always interesting to see which angle of argument is deemed ‘scientific’ in situations like this. I (as a former research biologist) and several others on this site over the past 4 years, have argued from ‘common sense’ that the climate system had to be a self-regulating system akin to a very strong spring (in other words very hard to break out from Hookes’ Law) to have survived in stable form for millions of years. Common sense was regarded as ‘our opinions’.
Now we bring in some systems engineers who use a few terms like oscillators, feedback loops, time delays etc etc and it becomes ‘science’.
It makes me wonder which branch of science, philosophy, religion or ethics will be brought in to finally nail the ‘common sense contention’ that murdering millions of people for oil isn’t ‘pragmatic foreign policy’, it’s genocide…….

Tim
Reply to  rtj1211
January 7, 2015 3:38 am

‘Common Sense’ is not going to feed egos, unfortunately.
I believe that Homeostasis guides the system back to a desirable range – even in the face of great cataclysms, let alone a minor trace gas percentage blip. The ‘Pause’ is a good example of a return to equilibrium.

hunter
Reply to  rtj1211
January 7, 2015 4:17 am

Who is “murdering millions of people for oil”? Please also quote the policy of any country that is suggesting killing people for any reason, “practical” or otherwise by the millions for oil.
TIA

kencoffman
January 7, 2015 3:39 am

I confess, I find the embedded defense of the Sky Dragon Slayers heartwarming. When you want to learn something about thermodynamics, modeling and feedback systems, you have choices. For example, you could go to engineers or to climatologists.

Reply to  kencoffman
January 7, 2015 6:27 am

And I find the arguments of the Sky Dragon Slayers pointless and without merit, being little more than a passionate and confused interpretation of physics that isn’t winning any converts except at the fringe.

KevinK
Reply to  Anthony Watts
January 7, 2015 9:11 pm

Anthony, with all due respect, Ken’s post was basically “who do you believe; engineers that apply physics to make things that work, or climate scientists that “predict” how things MIGHT work ?”.
I have applied state of the art modelling tools (and designed a few custom modelling tools as well) for dozens of complex products. Most of which where eventually successful. Models are just one part of an engineer’s toolbox, they can inform, confuse, clarify and waste time. It all depends on how they are used.
The “radiative greenhouse effect” is STILL just a hypothesis, model predictions are CUTE, but observations are facts.
I can assure you that my interpretation of “physics” is solidly based as demonstrated by many successful designs I have contributed to. Several of which are currently orbiting the Earth and sending back nice color images that you can access from websites like Google Earth ™. My interpretation of “physics” is hardly confused.
And speaking of merit, I have invented and patented several ideas that where applied in products, in fact some of those patents and products have become obsolete/expired during the several decades that folks have been fooling around trying (with absolutely no demonstrable success) to model the climate.
And when exactly did science involve “winning converts” ??? That sounds a lot like a religion to me.
So who do you believe; engineers that have applied the laws of thermodynamics (evolved from engineering efforts by the way) to make things that work, or climate scientists that have abused those laws to make “predictions” ?
Cheers, KevinK
PS I do appreciate all that you have done to provide this forum and expose flaws in the temperature record, but I would like to remind you of a wise person who said (paraphrased); “if the observations don’t match your hypothesis, the hypothesis is WRONG”

Reply to  Anthony Watts
January 8, 2015 3:23 am

It is true that some of the Slayers were less than polite, but there has been a lot of that on all sides in this debate. The Scotish Skeptic explained it well in this post: http://scottishsceptic.co.uk/2014/07/04/skydragons-good-physics-appalling-pr/ Which he called “Skydragons: good physics – appalling PR”
I have watched this debate from the days of “a new ice age is comming” till now. I can honestly say that agreeing with the Jim Hansen theory of CO2 warming the planet may be politically good for the luke warmers but it is not proven in any way. In fact, unless Maxwell was not any good at physics then my money is on the Jim Hansen theory being as wrong as everything else he has been involved with.
In the lower atmosphere, conduction and convection rule. That is where we need to start.
Oh, and it was Dr. Brown of Duke who agreed with his old friend Peter Morcombe in a thread I read that CO2 was much, much more likely to bump into an oxygen or nitrogen molecule and give up its energy recieved long before it had a chance to radiate the recieved energy, thereby thermalizing the non-CO2 molecule. Another way of saying that convection rules in the lower atmosphere.

Reply to  markstoval
January 8, 2015 8:09 am

markstoval commented on

Another way of saying that convection rules in the lower atmosphere.

Unless the air at the surface is still, then the surface temps are radiatively cooled. On a clear windless nights, the surface is first cooled at a rate limited by humidity and GH gases I believe, as the surface radiatively cools, that cools the air at the surface and that causes rel humidity to increase, which at somewhere around 80% humidity or higher, cooling slows by more than 50%. This regulates the rate of radiative cooling at the surface.
Winds would control how much surface air cools before it’s replaced, so the humidity would be closer to the air’s bulk humidity, and should cool at that rate for a longer time.
Then your convection rules all above this.

kencoffman
Reply to  Anthony Watts
January 8, 2015 4:27 am

With all due respect (and this is huge, your contribution to the debate is immense and irreplaceable), Anthony, your intractable opinion is very well known. We’ll see how it all settles out. Once more people consider the nature of an atmospheric CO2 molecule and its capability, then the merits of the Sky Dragon Slayer arguments will be fully known, for better or worse. As an example: at near sea level how “hot” must a CO2 molecule be to measurably increase the temperature of 2,500 of its N2, O2 and Argon neighbors? Is it even possible for a CO2 molecule to achieve this elevated temperature without flying apart? Think about it.

Reply to  kencoffman
January 8, 2015 7:32 am

My position is that CO2 has an effect far smaller than posited and supported by a number of new studies emerging demonstrating lower climate sensitivity, but to ignore it entirely is absolute folly.
Given some of the people that are “slayers” and their horrid PR skills and mannerisms (Doug Cotton and John O’Sullivan come to mind) I’m really not interested in engaging the “Slayers”. Please refrain from further discussion of “slayer” topics.

Reply to  Anthony Watts
January 9, 2015 5:46 am

kencoffman January 8, 2015 at 4:27 am
As an example: at near sea level how “hot” must a CO2 molecule be to measurably increase the temperature of 2,500 of its N2, O2 and Argon neighbors? Is it even possible for a CO2 molecule to achieve this elevated temperature without flying apart? Think about it.

A vibrationally excited CO2 molecule at 15 microns contains ~1.4×10^-20 J in the vibrational mode, the kinetic energy of the average gas molecule at 300K is ~0.6×10^-20 J. So that’s enough energy to increase the average temperature of 600 colliding molecules by ~1ºC. The vibrating CO2 molecule does not fly apart, that would require ~10^-18 J. Hope that helps.

stevek
January 7, 2015 3:49 am

The main issue with positive feedbacks is that the temperature itself increasing is a negative feedback. This is reason we don’t have run away temperatures and oceans do not boil.

January 7, 2015 3:49 am

george e. smith January 6, 2015 at 2:25 pm
My only comment to the guest author, is a cautionary one. Given the specific subject matter, your use of (k) as a scale factor is unfortunate. It should be avoided like the plague here unless you DO mean “Boltzmann’s Constant.” Don’t worry, I like using k as a factor too; but I refrain from doing so.

George, in chemical kinetics k is used universally as the symbol for a rate constant, in that case kb is used for Boltzmann’s constant.

January 7, 2015 3:59 am

This discussion reminds me of one of my favorite ‘self-check’ quotations:
“No matter how absolutely certain you are, you may be wrong.”
I don’t know the source, but it sounds like Feynman.

steverichards1984
January 7, 2015 4:07 am

In dbstealey January 6, 2015 at 9:14 pm post, the Vostok core temperature/CO2 relationship is shown.
We can clearly see (in control engineering terms) a stable system. After a transient input change, the system restores itself relatively quickly to its quiescent position.
Control engineers understand that without energy being input to a system, there can be no change in controlled variable (temperature in this discussion).
To me, the massive changes in temperature at 150000, 250000 and 350000 years imply external to the earth ‘input changes’ to the system, and the small ‘returning’ oscillations are the earths damped response to these massive changes.
The plot above looks just like a damped system ( gain < 1.0) which is given step changes, just like the one described above with a spring, mass and damper.
The massive changes, in such a short time span indicate massive changes to the energy input to the earth.
The smaller changes appear to be the earths response to these massive changes.
The sun is the power source for the earth. On a geological timescale something appears to have temporarily changed the amount of energy that the earth received 4 times.

Reply to  steverichards1984
January 7, 2015 7:46 am

We can clearly see (in control engineering terms) a stable system. After a transient input change, the system restores itself relatively quickly to its quiescent position.
Looks more like a limit cycle to me rather than the stable node you describe, I would also say that the restoration is relatively slow.
Control engineers understand that without energy being input to a system, there can be no change in controlled variable (temperature in this discussion).
Not just the input but also the losses, for example KevinK’s accidental oscillator described above occurred because of a change in losses not input.
A change in GHGs changes the losses for the earth.

KevinK
Reply to  Phil.
January 7, 2015 9:23 pm

With respect, my accidental oscillator occurred because of an unanticipated change in material properties (i.e. the resistance of solder versus temperature) not because of a change in losses.
You wrote; “A change in GHGs changes the losses for the earth.”, not so, an change in “GHG’s” simply changes the delay time for energy as it flows through the system. It all starts at the SUN, flows through the system (Earth with atmosphere) and exits to the energy free vacuum of space.
And another elephant in the climate science suite (as if there is not a huge herd of pachyderms present already) is that ALL of the properties of real materials; thermal conductivity, thermal capacity, density, etc. etc…. are dependent on temperature, often in a non-linear fashion.
Heck, I think there are fewer pachyderms in Africa than in the “climate science room”.
Cheers, KevinK

Reply to  Phil.
January 8, 2015 9:45 am

KevinK January 7, 2015 at 9:23 pm
With respect, my accidental oscillator occurred because of an unanticipated change in material properties (i.e. the resistance of solder versus temperature) not because of a change in losses.

With respect that phase change was caused by inadequate heat loss to maintain stability. “Turns out that the switching transistor was just a wee bit too warm (not a large enough heatsink to shed the thermal load), not warm enough to be damaged however. This caused the solder that connected the transistor leads to start to liquify (not enough to open the connection so the lamp stayed lit)”
You fixed it by increasing the heat loss:
“once I found the problem I simply upgraded to a larger heatsink and kept my job, and some of you may have purchased a fax machine or document scanner with a little fluorescent lamp inside, one of those units included this design (after it worked).”
You wrote; “A change in GHGs changes the losses for the earth.”, not so, an change in “GHG’s” simply changes the delay time for energy as it flows through the system. It all starts at the SUN, flows through the system (Earth with atmosphere) and exits to the energy free vacuum of space.
Your model for the action of GHGs is not correct.
At a given insolation the Earth’s surface radiates energy towards space (T^4), CO2 filters out some of that energy (log dependence on CO2), using it to heat the atmosphere, as a result less energy is emitted to space than is lost from the surface. The Earth therefore increases its temperature until incoming and out going match.

Reply to  steverichards1984
January 7, 2015 11:46 am

steverichards1984 commented

The massive changes, in such a short time span indicate massive changes to the energy input to the earth.

http://www.science20.com/sites/all/modules/author_gallery/uploads/543663916-global.png
This is the derivative of station temp (Mn,Av,Mx) from global surface stations from the NCDC GSoD data set showing daily rate of change from Apr till Oct (Cooling), and Oct to Apr (Warming), The yellow spike in 1972 is most likely due to a large change in the number of surface stations from 1970-1973 (sample count changed from ~1800 to ~525,~450, and ~3700 for those years). But other than that you can see the acceleration plot of station temps. Fairly stable Mx temps, Mn temp changes are large local (regional) spikes, like you might see with a large change in temps of an upwind pool of water might have.

January 7, 2015 4:09 am

Reblogged this on Maley's Energy Blog and commented:
Blogging this mainly as a bookmark for future reference. Leo Smith sounds like a brilliant engineer. Note that the post is actually a promoted comment. Mr. Smith’s subsequent comment (1/6/15 at 6:32 pm) is remarkable in its clarity, insight and warning.

hunter
January 7, 2015 4:14 am

Showing up late, but increasingly Nick Stokes, with his quick pounce to derail any discussion is nearly indistinguishable from Omanuel, the kook and troll. The only cure for trolls and kooks is to stop feeding them.

mikewaite
January 7, 2015 4:50 am

I have a suggestion inspired by Leo Smith’s post: I believe that one can take Leo Smith’s insight further and actually compare it to topics in standard climatology textbooks to get an insight into his feedback parameter by reformatting his proposal as :
dT = lambda *k*ln2(1 + f(dx)/(lambda*k*ln2))
Then refer to , say Goudy ‘s textbook and in particular Ch 5 eqtns 5.43 to 5.47 for the amplification factor associated with water vapour. Apply the simplification that 1/(1 – a) = (1 +a) for a<<1 and you end up with an
equation similar to that proposed by LS , with the unknown parameter f(dx) associated with the relative contribution of the optical depth of water vapour (tau,w) to the total optical depth (tau) , ie the ratio
tau,w/tau where tau = tau,w + tau, CO2
So whilst CO2 continues to rise , and with it tauCO2 the contribution from water falls and global temperatures fail to rise as expected .
So , a fall in the optical depth of water vapour is the LS feedback parameter , and it is within the framework of orthodox AGW theory so it is surely not an improper suggestion that I am making . H2O is the key.

Solomon Green
January 7, 2015 5:56 am

Hidden away in Leo Smith’s excellent article are, for me, the real guts.
“It’s a massive non linear hugely time delayed negative feedback system. And that’s just water and ice. Before we toss in volcanic action, meteor strikes, continental drift. solar variability, and Milankovitch cycles…
The miracle of AGW is that all this has been simply tossed aside, or considered some kind of constant, or a multiplier of the only driver in town, CO2.
When all you know is linear systems analysis everything looks like a linear system perturbed by an external driver.
When the only driver you have come up with is CO2, everything looks like CO2.”
Why do climatologists attempt to model a blatantly non-linear system with what are essentially linear models rather than complex dynamic models? Or am I wrong and have any climate scientists come up with a complex dynamic model?

Reply to  Solomon Green
January 8, 2015 1:42 pm

They know it is not good, but some, out of arrogance, dismiss the other factors as non-factors, and the rest do not understand dynamic models. Man (one N) does not have the data necessary to accurately put in the other factors yet. And that is why their models are so bad.

Gras Albert
January 7, 2015 6:04 am

Stokes

GCMs do CFD perfectly well in the vertical direction (as do NWPs). They implement the momentum equation. It happens that you can generally ignore vertical acceleration (winds blow generally horizontally, or at least in line with topography), and also the vertical component of viscous stress. What’s left is hydrostatic balance. Some vertical transport due to sub-grid stuff needs to be modelled.

Oh Dear
So “winds blow generally horizontally” do they? Have you ever heard of mountain (gravity) wave? The kind that produces vertical ‘wind’ frequently > than 50kmh (25kts), measurable to the stratosphere, i.e. > 30,000m (100,000ft) and which are observed to stretch for 1500km (1000ml), never heard of “the land of the white cloud”?
It never ceases to amaze me how those that comment on climate from a CAGW perspective can be so ignorant of lower atmosphere physics
Nick, whenever the wind blows horizontally it also blows vertically, see NASA’s image of gravity waves stretching between Indonesia and Australia

Gras Albert
Reply to  Gras Albert
January 7, 2015 6:08 am

Here’s the correctly formed Nasa link NASA Gravity Wave Image

jaffa68
January 7, 2015 6:09 am

“To an engineer, climate science as the IPCC have it is simplistic nonsense.”
An excellent article.
Anyone who thinks a temperature ‘change’ that amounts to a tiny fraction of the daily range (at any location) or the regional range (at any point in time) is even going to be problematic – is a fool.
Once again Dick Strokes is shown to be missing his natural calling – as a Merchant Banker.

wordsmeanthings
January 7, 2015 8:32 am

spot on. clear, concise, understandable to laymen and professionals alike. best post ever.

RH
January 7, 2015 8:38 am

“Sooner or later an externality is going to come along that will overwhelm the ability of centralized bureaucracy to deal with it, and it will fail. ”
An externality, like maybe a national debt in excess of 20 TRILLION dollars.

ggf
January 7, 2015 8:43 am

As another engineer I came to a similar conclusion when the climate alarmism fist came to prominence.
These two paragraphs capture it for me.
“So called ‘Climate science’ relies on net positive feedback to create alarmist views – and that positive feedback is nothing to do with CO2 allegedly: on the contrary it is a temperature change amplifier pure and simple.
If such a feedback existed, any driver of temperature, from a minor change in the suns output, to a volcanic eruption must inevitably trigger massive temperature changes. But it simply never has. Or we wouldn’t be here to spout such nonsense.”

RH
Reply to  ggf
January 7, 2015 9:18 am

“alarmism fist”
Freudian slip? or best typo ever?

January 7, 2015 9:29 am

As I have shown and said if climate models can’ t show why the climate changed the way it did in the past even when they know how it changed (Pliocene to Pleistocene) how are they going to be able to predict the climate now?
The answer is they can not and the CO2 /AGW climate connection theory is nonsense in my opinion.
The strength of the GHG effect is a result of the climate not the cause and that is illustrated by the fact that CO2 responds to temperature and not the other way around.

January 7, 2015 9:31 am

http://www.meltdata.com/articles/pliocene-epoch-climate.html
This is really a good read showing how clueless things are about how climate changed in the past even though we know ho wit changed.

Steve Oregon
January 7, 2015 10:07 am

Great collection of AGW refuting here.
However, Team AGW, at least their icons, are fully aware of how fatally flawed their “science” and models are.
That why it’s a fraud being perpetrated.
The purposefully mendacious advancement of fallacious justification for the gross misappropriation of public money on illegitimate programs and policies.

Penncyl Puccer
January 7, 2015 10:28 am

“We are on the point of almost total collapse, and we do not have the localised systems in place to replace centralised structures that are utterly dysfunctional. Sooner or later an externality is going to come along that will overwhelm the ability of centralized bureaucracy to deal with it, and it will fail. And nothing else will succeed, because people can no longer think for themselves.”
Quite.