The law of unintended consequences in action: Imagine replacing all CO2 emissions with H2O emissions

electrolysis catalyst
Image: Tewodros Asefa A new technology based on carbon nanotubes promises commercially viable hydrogen production from water.

This story, while technically correct, made me chuckle, especially in light of a tweet today by Mashable warmist Andrew Freidman, who was complaining about heat and humidity in NYC. Just think about what it would be like if all those taxis and private vehicles were emitting H2O (as water vapor). – more below.

Rutgers Chemists Develop Technology to Produce Clean-Burning Hydrogen Fuel

New catalyst based on carbon nanotubes may rival cost-prohibitive platinum for reactions that split water into hydrogen and oxygen

NEW BRUNSWICK – Rutgers researchers have developed a technology that could overcome a major cost barrier to make clean-burning hydrogen fuel – a fuel that could replace expensive and environmentally harmful fossil fuels.

The new technology is a novel catalyst that performs almost as well as cost-prohibitive platinum for so-called electrolysis reactions, which use electric currents to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. The Rutgers technology is also far more efficient than less-expensive catalysts investigated to-date.

“Hydrogen has long been expected to play a vital role in our future energy landscapes by mitigating, if not completely eliminating, our reliance on fossil fuels,” said Tewodros (Teddy) Asefa, associate professor of chemistry and chemical biology in the School of Arts and Sciences. “We have developed a sustainable chemical catalyst that, we hope with the right industry partner, can bring this vision to life.”

Asefa is also an associate professor of chemical and biochemical engineering in the School of Engineering.

He and his colleagues based their new catalyst on carbon nanotubes – one-atom-thick sheets of carbon rolled into tubes 10,000 times thinner than a human hair.

Finding ways to make electrolysis reactions commercially viable is important because processes that make hydrogen today start with methane – itself a fossil fuel. The need to consume fossil fuel therefore negates current claims that hydrogen is a “green” fuel.

Electrolysis, however, could produce hydrogen using electricity generated by renewable sources, such as solar, wind and hydro energy, or by carbon-neutral sources, such as nuclear energy. And even if fossil fuels were used for electrolysis, the higher efficiency and better emissions controls of large power plants could give hydrogen fuel cells an advantage over less efficient and more polluting gasoline and diesel engines in millions of vehicles and other applications.

In a recent scientific paper published in Angewandte Chemie International Edition, Asefa and his colleagues reported that their technology, called “noble metal-free nitrogen-rich carbon nanotubes,” efficiently catalyze the hydrogen evolution reaction with activities close to that of platinum. They also function well in acidic, neutral or basic conditions, allowing them to be coupled with the best available oxygen-evolving catalysts that also play crucial roles in the water-splitting reaction.

The researchers have filed for a patent on the catalyst, which is available for licensing or research collaborations through the Rutgers Office of Technology Commercialization. The National Science Foundation funded the research.

Asefa, an expert in inorganic and materials chemistry, joined the Rutgers faculty in 2009 after four years as an assistant professor at Syracuse University. Originally from Ethiopia, he is a resident of Montgomery Township, N.J. In addition to catalysis and nanocatalysis, his research interests include novel inorganic nanomaterials and nanomaterials for biological, medical biosensing and solar cell applications.

==============================================================

The process described above is certainly better and less energy intensive than steam methane reforming (STR) which produces over 100 million tons of hydrogen worldwide every year.

I wrote a paper in college on the topic of replacing gasoline with hydrogen – it seemed a sensible idea then. Now, not so much.

For those that don’t know or don’t recall, the chemical reaction for combusting hydrogen is:

combusting_h2

The result of the reaction is water and heat released from combustion, the H2O, unless condensed and trapped, will exit as water vapor into the atmosphere.

When ranked by their direct contribution to the greenhouse effect, the most important greenhouse gas compounds are:

Compound Formula Contribution

(%)

Water vapor and clouds H

2O

36 – 72%
Carbon dioxide CO

2

9 – 26%
Methane CH

4

4–9%
Ozone O

3

3–7%
Source: Kiehl, J.T.; Kevin E. Trenberth (1997). “Earth’s annual global mean energy budget” (PDF). Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society 78 (2): 197–208.  doi:10.1175/1520-0477(1997)078<0197:EAGMEB>2.0.CO;2

The contribution of water vapor ranges far higher than that of CO2.

Imagine in a hyrdogen powered economy, millions of vehicles emitting water vapor from tailpipes instead of CO2.

H2-exhaust

The panic over temperature from water vapor emissions, which can be double to triple the heat trapping capacity of Carbon Dioxide, would be quite something to watch.

On the plus side trapping H2O is a lot easier than trapping CO2, though in automobiles, would require carrying around all that waste water of combustion, and dumping it when you fuel up, something I have yet to see dealt with in the various Hydrogen powered combustion engines I’ve looked at. Fuel cell systems do better, since they don’t produce much in the way of water vapor, but water is dumped onto the road just the same, where it will evaporate.

Note that this fueling station recently in the news has no provision for waste-water capture:

Linde starts production line for fuel-cell car filling stations

(Reuters) – German industrial gases maker Linde opened what it said was the world’s first production line for hydrogen fueling stations on Monday, in a bid to boost support networks for eco-friendly cars.

Fuel-cell cars, which compete with electric and hybrid vehicles in a race to capture environmentally conscious drivers, use a stack of cells that combine hydrogen with oxygen in the air to generate electricity.

Their only emissions are water vapour and heat, but the technology has been held back by high costs and lack of infrastructure. Fuel-cell cars will go on sale starting at $70,000, and filling stations cost over $1 million to build.

On the back of commercial launch announcements by Toyota and Hyundai and demand in Japan, Linde started up a production facility with an initial annual capacity of 50 stations a year. Until now, it has built them one by one.

The company announced an order for 28 stations from Japanese gas trading company Iwatani, which put the first of its Linde stations into operation near Osaka on Monday, the first commercial hydrogen fueling station in Japan.

We live in interesting times.

From Wikipedia, the criticism of hydrogen powered cars is broad:

In 2008, Wired News reported that “experts say it will be 40 years or more before hydrogen has any meaningful impact on gasoline consumption or global warming, and we can’t afford to wait that long. In the meantime, fuel cells are diverting resources from more immediate solutions.”[82] The Economist magazine, in 2008, quoted Robert Zubrin, the author of Energy Victory, as saying: “Hydrogen is ‘just about the worst possible vehicle fuel'”.[83] The magazine noted that most hydrogen is produced through steam reformation, which creates at least as much emission of carbon per mile as some of today’s gasoline cars. On the other hand, if the hydrogen could be produced using renewable energy, “it would surely be easier simply to use this energy to charge the batteries of all-electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles.”[83] The Los Angeles Times wrote in 2009, “Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars.”[84] The Washington Post asked in November 2009, “[W]hy would you want to store energy in the form of hydrogen and then use that hydrogen to produce electricity for a motor, when electrical energy is already waiting to be sucked out of sockets all over America and stored in auto batteries…?”[85]

The Motley Fool stated in 2013 that “there are still cost-prohibitive obstacles [for hydrogen cars] relating to transportation, storage, and, most importantly, production.”[86] The New York Times noted that there are only 10 publicly accessible hydrogen filling stations in the U.S.[59] Volkswagen’s Rudolf Krebs said in 2013 that “no matter how excellent you make the cars themselves, the laws of physics hinder their overall efficiency. The most efficient way to convert energy to mobility is electricity.” He elaborated: “Hydrogen mobility only makes sense if you use green energy”, but … you need to convert it first into hydrogen “with low efficiencies” where “you lose about 40 percent of the initial energy”. You then must compress the hydrogen and store it under high pressure in tanks, which uses more energy. “And then you have to convert the hydrogen back to electricity in a fuel cell with another efficiency loss”. Krebs continued: “in the end, from your original 100 percent of electric energy, you end up with 30 to 40 percent.”[87] Cox wrote in 2014 that producing hydrogen “is significantly more carbon intensive per unit of energy than coal. Mistaking fossil hydrogen from the hydraulic fracturing of shales for an environmentally sustainable energy pathway threatens to encourage energy policies that will dilute and potentially derail global efforts to head-off climate change due to the risk of diverting investment and focus from vehicle technologies that are economically compatible with renewable energy.”[6]

The Business Insider commented:

Pure hydrogen can be industrially derived, but it takes energy. If that energy does not come from renewable sources, then fuel-cell cars are not as clean as they seem. … Another challenge is the lack of infrastructure. Gas stations need to invest in the ability to refuel hydrogen tanks before FCEVs become practical, and it’s unlikely many will do that while there are so few customers on the road today. … Compounding the lack of infrastructure is the high cost of the technology. Fuel cells are “still very, very expensive”.

UPDATE: another unintended consequence I had not considered – leakage. Keeping Hydrogen gas from leaking is quite a problem due to the molecular size being the smallest. This comment sums it up:

Les Johnson says:

well, using H2 would solve the global warming issue, just not the way intended.

Replacing all auto fuel, and assuming a 10% leakage at surface, H2 will cause global COOLING, by tripling stratospheric moisture, plus destroy the ozone by hydroxyls chemistry…

This is disputed by Warwick 2004, but I find a 1% loss rate of hydrogen to be extremely low. We have 10% to 20% loss rates, per day, of liquid N2. And liquid H2 has a much lower temperature.

This has references to both papers, page 3.

http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/12/19371/2012/acpd-12-19371-2012-print.pdf

http://pr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12405.html

he adds later in a second comment:

This is the Tromp et al 2006 paper that shows that hydrogen leakage woul dbe very detrimental.

http://scholar.google.ca/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=ri8A4awAAAAJ&citation_for_view=ri8A4awAAAAJ:pqnbT2bcN3wC

Abstract:

The widespread use of hydrogen fuel cells could have hitherto unknown

environmental impacts due to unintended emissions of molecular hydrogen, including an

increase in the abundance of water vapor in the stratosphere (plausibly by as much as∼ 1

part per million by volume). This would cause stratospheric cooling, enhancement of the

heterogeneous chemistry that destroys ozone, an increase in noctilucent clouds, and

changes in tropospheric chemistry and atmosphere-biosphere interactions.

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John Scogin
July 14, 2014 7:49 pm

I would just like to point out that there are only two reasonable sources of hydrogen – from fossil fuels or from cracking water. In the first case, the hydrogen is only an intermediate to the ultimate product of water. In the second case, well …. that’s pretty obvious.
So there is no net difference in net water emission regardless of the fuel cycle of the hydrogen engine.

Editor
July 14, 2014 7:50 pm

In 2008, one of those big university press releases came out, in this case essentially preserved at http://www.technologyreview.com/news/410539/solar-power-breakthrough/ . No, it has nothing to do about solar power – it is about a new, cheap catalyst that could split water in an electrolysis cell and hence make solar photovoltaics feasible.

Researchers have made a major advance in inorganic chemistry that could lead to a cheap way to store energy from the sun. In so doing, they have solved one of the key problems in making solar energy a dominant source of electricity.
Daniel Nocera, a professor of chemistry at MIT, has developed a catalyst that can generate oxygen from a glass of water by splitting water molecules. The reaction frees hydrogen ions to make hydrogen gas. The catalyst, which is easy and cheap to make, could be used to generate vast amounts of hydrogen using sunlight to power the reactions.

It would be good for wind turbines – you could even ship the H2 (and O2) via pipeline.
So six years later, they’re still around, sort of. No products yet, see http://nocera.harvard.edu/SolarEnergyConversion
Oh wait, that’s a Harvard link.
Confused? http://www.technologyreview.com/view/512996/a-cheaper-way-to-make-hydrogen-from-water/ talks about a catalyst from Canada, but also notes:
Harvard professor Daniel Nocera, while at MIT, introduced a low-cost catalyst made of an amorphous cobalt oxide for splitting water to make hydrogen fuel. A company called Sun Catalytix was formed in 2009 using venture and government funding to commercialize his work but it has struggled to make a viable product and has since shifted its focus to making flow batteries. (See, Sun Catalytix Seeks Second Act with Flow Battery.)


So, maybe they have something, maybe they don’t. I won’t hold my breath!

July 14, 2014 8:27 pm

I believe most power plants use steam turbines, most of which vent much more H20 to the air than that produced by fuel combustion. Along with irrigated agriculture this adds slightly to the rain down wind, emitting a little heat to space in the process. –AGF

Mike Wryley
July 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Even if the energy and process used to create the hydrogen was free, everyone would be much better served if the H2 was used to make synthetic gasoline or diesel.

James the Elder
July 14, 2014 9:35 pm

Gamecock says:
July 14, 2014 at 2:40 pm
Oxygen is extremely corrosive. Plans to split water to get hydrogen never mention what they are going to do with the oxygen.
——————————————————————————————————
Turn it loose, burn it, repeat. When I can fill up for less than $40 and am reasonably sure of no low earth orbit if I take a speed bump too fast, I’m in.

John F. Hultquist
July 14, 2014 9:41 pm

When the hydrogen embrittlement issues are solved across thousands of items for 24/7 use and Murphy’s Law repealed – these are things we know – let me know. Then there are the things we don’t know.
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-HIC/embrittlement.htm

July 14, 2014 10:04 pm

nature figured out the hydrolysis reaction 3+billion years ago… chlorophyll reaction centers using visible light photonic energy to drive a proton gradient and electron transport with corrosive O2 as a toxic pollutant in ancient anoxic oceans and atmospheres. O2 forced iron out of solution, reducing bioavailability of this essential plant (chlorophyll) nutrient.
So O2 was the original pollutant. We animals are pollution consumers to keep the photosynthetic plants happy. We helping them out further by increasing their other essential nutrient now… CO2.

Mark.R
July 14, 2014 10:22 pm

If the Sun dries out the air in the day time where does all that dried out water vapour go.
The way I understand it is that the Sun warms the air .The air expands thus giving the impression that the humidity is going down.

Greg Goodman
July 14, 2014 11:45 pm

The panic over temperature from water vapor emissions, which can be double to triple the heat trapping capacity of Carbon Dioxide, would be quite something to watch.
On the plus side trapping H2O is a lot easier than trapping CO2, though in automobiles, would require carrying around all that waste water of combustion, and dumping it when you fuel up, something I have yet to see dealt with in the various Hydrogen powered combustion engines I’ve looked at.

WUWT REPLY: No disputing water vapor has a shorter lifetime than CO2, but if it is actively being cycled into the air locally and continuously, the effects will be an increased local humidity. I think you missed the premise at the beginning from the complaint by Freedman – imagine all that extra water vapor in a city like New York. It will have an effect.
===
Water vapour is less dense than air. Presumably this would lead to updraft over large cities as it does over the ocean. One consequence could be stronger winds towards cities, this would lead to cyclonic rotation.
Even with this effect it would need higher humidity to drive it, so net daytime humidity would be higher. However, the added ventilation could help remove UHI and other pollution from cities.
The average residence time of an H2O molecule in current climate it probably not the relevant factor to consider. A locally over-humid volume of air will condense out rapidly.. As the water laden air rises it will form cloud.
So if we take the alarmist line, I suppose we should say that if hydrogen cell vehicles become widely used, by 2040 there will be daily cyclones over NY city and LA.
However, the author’s suggestion that relative GHG potential of water vapour ( which is always worth emphasising ) would cause substantial warming or less nocturnal cooling seems questionable.
Also it should not be forgotten that one of the major combustion products of both gasoline and LPG is water vapour. How much more WV would be produced, per mile travelled, by burning H2 ?
My guess is it would be about the same.

July 15, 2014 12:37 am

Anthony,
Did you do the numbers before posting this story? My first reaction was to wonder if H20 emitting cars could possibly have any significant effect on the local weather and humidity.
I tried to Google for some numbers. Hopefully someone can improve on what I found. One place it said that 9 kg of water will produce 1 kg of hydrogen which is good for 100 miles of driving. Lets say that the average car on the road in NYC emits 3 kg of water per hour. I couldn’t find good numbers on how many cars there are in NYC per km² actually on the road driving. But lets consider the tiniest of rainfalls, 0.1 mm, just enough to wet the ground, which will evaporate within minutes and hardly have much influence on humidity after an hour. 0.1 mm equals 100,000 litres of water per km², in this case the equivalence of 33 thousand cars. Lets consider Manhattan. Manhattan is a about 60 km². Can you have 2 million cars driving in Manhattan at the same time, needed to produce the equivalent of 0.1 mm of rainfall per hour? I don’t think so. I think the car emissions will be more like the equivalence of the evaporation after a 0.1 mm rainfall in a whole day.
So the effect on the local weather has to be tiny. It wouldn’t surprise me if the effect of painting all the cars black would be greater.

July 15, 2014 1:01 am

When I first looked at Hydrogen Fuel Cells, the Platinum was the cost prohibitive issue, probably around a decade ago. As I’ve followed up they’ve been working on how to use the water itself and create a closed system that would be supplemented, which, after reading your paper, suggests they are well aware of this gripe relating to our terrestrial environment and water vapors.
Interestingly enough I had occasion to reach the Japanese Consulate in the course of that decade and their people had been working on using nanotubes as the PEM (to replace the need for platinum) which is what this Rutgers research appears to be claiming. Additionally their power company has actually issued hydrogen cell systems to people’s homes, the system basically replaces the water heater while also generating electricity, and yes using a fuel the power company pipes to the home. This was before the tsunami that hit Japan however (so maybe it’s been more than a decade :p)
I contend that a lot of this is not objective science but self-interested noise and one has to follow the money to understand and appreciate the reality of science losing its objectivity and being more of a religion, meta-narrative and all.
The Chicago carbon credit exchange is closed, http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/17/news/economy/climate_exchange/index.htm, however, in 2007, the first time that Union Pensions invested in Oil Futures and chased the price up to around 150, you’ll find they also made a huge investment in natural gas futures, http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf. I contend this has and will continue to skew the honesty of the variety of so called scientists who study Global Warm… er…. Climate Cha…. er …. Climate Disruption, to make every effort to move us toward wherever the deeper pockets of money will be more than happy to fund them to espouse is “scientifically proven” in the future.
I further contend we haven’t much data on the variety of planets in our solar system, as far as concise experiential data on atmosphere and cycles (100 years or more) that would be to a certainty not subject to debate in so far as whether there is a “weather pattern” for each of them. This, taken along with recent NASA discoveries regarding Mars (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/07aug_southpole.htm) could be used by one of these above mentioned scientists to explain by argument ad infinitum, that is rebutted just as well, and merely be an exercise in futile wastes of arguing fervor solely because we haven’t enough real data to settle such a contest. We’re always and unable to escape our terrestrial equipped relationship imposing itself on our view of another planet, completely unequipped but by assumptions based on our terrestrial certainties, for an extra-terrestrial relationship even with planets in our own solar system.
In any event, by Mars Polar Caps melting, you can see this could make 2 planets having some sort of climate change amongst our considered 9 in this Solar System, and that isn’t conclusive enough to suggest it’s a solar event…. That is until you add Jupiter and what is happening to its Great Red Spot that’s been assumed a massive hurricane, http://www.examiner.com/article/is-jupiter-s-great-red-spot-shrinking and http://www.physorg.com/news146328763.html.
Thus we have 3, yes 3 planets that we know enough about to know they’re going through what appears to be, by what data we have, atmospheric changes, and yet we have no idea if these are normal cycles or abnormal ones in the larger “bandwidth” of the measure of time, and yet all happening by co-incidence at the same time as what we’re willing to claim is man-made on our own planet. Yes I am a skeptic as to the man-made assumption, and that is due to other finds by NASA regarding the Heliosphere.
As is displayed regarding the Rutgers discovery and the noise of these near 20 years of so-called “inconvenient truth,” there remains the wealth sought by the story telling movie-maker and former Vice President Al Gore, who was surely knowledgeable in the activities of the HAARP project which blasts, I believe, 3 gigawatts of electricity into the Ionsphere that must be dissipated, every 6 months to test punching through it and whether or not a “communication dish” of a surface can be forged by doing this (so we’re not reliant on our satellite systems, a military idea). And also the wealth sought by science in the form of grants, as well as the above mentioned unions investing in natural gas futures It doesn’t take rocket science to see that there is a gap between what may honestly and actually be happening, and our apparent need to claim suicide by claiming manmade causes when all of this is merely keeping us from finding real solutions regarding survival of what happens when the Heliosphere loses another 20% of its pressure, thinning out and contracting further, the same amount as the Heliosphere has lost in the last 30 years of the 50 we’ve been monitoring it and prompted a special satellite be put up by NASA to analyze the Sun, http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/23sep_solarwind/ and http://www.space.com/7349-cosmic-rays-hit-50-year-high.html (please note all of this is happening at the very same time as what we believe are atmospheric changes to the Earth, as well as Mars and Jupiter, apparently science is somehow convinced these are unrelated “co-incidence”) that in some reports scientists explain the Earth would then be almost unlivable — yes in a shorter timeframe than the global warming alarmists projected for their, what appear to me have become, if they weren’t originally, erroneous and self-aggrandizing claims.
Great that we are figuring out alternative forms of energy, and likely this will lead to saving money and greater national security with a less centralized utilitarian power distribution structure, and less infrastructure cost, but it’s not going to save the world from extra-terrestrial forces of the universe that we’ve not a pinheads knowledge of, let alone understanding, especially for the “bandwidth” of 500, 1000, and 10,000 year cycles from actual experience of them. To illustrate, using our latest and greatest technology, Mother Nature’s Universe well reminds us of our infancy, http://news.softpedia.com/news/Cosmic-Explosion-Blinds-NASA-Satellite-147704.shtml. I am sure you’re all well aware that Cosmic Rays are nothing new, so to what do we owe our certainties but terrestrial assumptions, literally in the vacuum of space without a scintilla of reason to be so arrogant.
May we step off our pedestal long enough to save our race, then again maybe our ideological differences and pride in these have assured us we’ll never again find any reason to,
Toddy Littman
P.S. I am no scientist and no grammarian so apologies in advance.

Steve Garcia
July 15, 2014 1:02 am

Several folks beat me to the punch on exhausting that water onto the road surfaces in the wintertime. THAT should be something that engineering can deal with, though – to collect the water. I’d think it would be doable, even if they have to get inventive to do it.
The OTHER time of the year you don’t want water vapor on the road surface is when there hasn’t been rain in a good while, when oil has formed a bit of a film on the road. Rain rinses that oil film off the road, so other times of the year that is not problem.
Anecdotal: I was in Cairo, Egypt one December, when it hadn’t rained since springtime. Driving after that first rain in 8 months — I have NEVER driven on such slick roads before or since. Steering was a nightmare, and every little hump in the pavement or tiny little steering adjustment sent the rear wheel drive ass-end to one side or the other. And that was at about 30 mph, which was the functional max speed on the crowded streets of Cairo and Giza. I am no wimp as far as icy roads. I endured winters in Maine (150″ of snow that winter), Denver, Chicago, and the “Snow Belt” of NE Ohio for 43 years total. And never have I driven on such a dicey surface as a fresh rain after 8 months of dry in Egypt.
I’d imagine, then, that most dry states would have this problem with the first rain after a few weeks of dry. And some not-so-dry states, too.

bobl
July 15, 2014 1:51 am

Anthony,
Hydrogen as well as leaking out of almost any container, can’t be readily liquified. In its gaseous state it is very volume inefficient. IE: there is far more energy in a litre of gasoline than a litre of hydrogen. As well as being practically impossible to contain it also loves to hydrolise the containers resulting in severe embrittlememt of metals. And it’s very reactive making it rather dangerous to combine with quite a few things including nitrogen, producing toxic ammonia, and chlorine producing hydrogen chloride which when hydrated becomes hydrochloric acid.
Frankly one would be much better off using ammonia NH3 as a fuel since there are three hydrogens per molecule and it’s a liquid, albieit a toxic one. Then again, wonders will never cease, CH4 is even better, packing 4 hydrogens per molecule, is readily liquified and weighs less, and unlike toxic ammonia just happens to conveniently combust in air, oh and there’s a whole class of similar hydrogen packed variations, packing huge numbers of hydrogens per molecule, which are even more volume efficient. Oh but of course we can’t use them because that causes release of the magic gas of maximum harm (/sarc if anyone actually needed that).
No matter what you do, when you discuss hydrogen you end up discussing hydrocarbons.
Ps, another good carrier would be cellulose C6H10O5 or glucose C6H12O6 but they have that tricky oxygen attached.

July 15, 2014 2:10 am

Obvious points:
1 If the hydrogen is split out from water then burning it causes no net increase in water vapour. We are back where we started.
2 If the hydrogen is split out from methane then we are just adding an extra step that decreases efficiency and produces an even less user-friendly gas than the original methane.
3 If the hydrogen is split out from water at the point of use (as water is convenient for storing) then the energy source required for the splitting needs to be carried by the user. They may as well use that.
So what is the attraction of hydrogen as a fuel?

July 15, 2014 3:24 am

ER… conventional diesel/gasoline cars already emit more water vapour than carbon dioxide.
Long chain hydrocarbons are typically Cn H2n +2 so always more water than CO2 in molecular terms. Only going to aromatic compounds will get CO2 above H2O levels..

Whatever, I forget. This will suely make someone mad...
July 15, 2014 4:03 am

Actually we have this in a way. In Iowa and other high corn regions we take in billions of tons of CO2 and they emit billions of tons of water into the air…every summer.
http://www.weather.com/outlook/weather-news/news/articles/evapotranspiration-corn-belt-humidity_2011-07-13

July 15, 2014 4:55 am

The entire fixation by so many otherwise rational people about “fossil” fuels is irrational. I guess they are seeking a way to eternal life through “sustainability”, even though the sun itself will eventually burn out, killing all life on earth in the process.
Instead of specious silliness like ” The need to consume fossil fuel therefore negates current claims that hydrogen is a “green” fuel.”, we ought to focus on producing the energy and fuels that we do need with a minimum of pollution and at the lowest cost. In other venues, methane is praised because it can be made from organic waste and sewage sludge, which is in fact anti-fossil in nature. Such silliness is made even more silly because an obvious way to reduce “fossil” fuels is to use nuclear power when possible, but people would rather throw money to the wind (power) with bird-Cuisinearts rather than help to develop walk-away-safe forms of nuclear power.

Jeff Alberts
July 15, 2014 7:06 am

Nick Stokes says:
July 14, 2014 at 4:15 pm
[snip – off topic – this thread is about water vapor, not methane -mod]

Mods, please apply the same level of moderation to ALL OT posts. Especially those by Pat.
[done – mod]

CLR II
July 15, 2014 7:16 am

Why do people still fall for this stuff about hydrogen as a fuel? If the source of the hydrogen is water (as it is in this technology), the first and second law of thermodynamics guarantee that it is not actually a net fuel, since it would take more energy to produce than you could get back by burning it as a fuel. At best, it could be viewed as a battery of sorts as a way to store energy produced by some other means for later use. Where would we get all of the energy to create all of the hydrogen? Why not store that energy in a safer battery or burn that natural gas directly in the vehicle rather than taking the energy loss by converting the energy to hydrogen as an inefficient intermediate step? The whole idea of hydrogen from water as a “fuel” has baffled me for decades and I’ve yet to hear a good explanation as to why we should waste money funding this idea? The best possible case I can envision is using intermittent energy producers like windmills to produce hydrogen (essentially storing the energy for use when we need it), but we already know that wind mills are very inefficient and not cost effective (in addition to being eyesores and killing birds and bats).

Mike
July 15, 2014 7:57 am

The one major flaw in this argument is that the author is comparing chemical reactions without reference to how efficiently the energy from these chemical reactions can be captured.
If the hydrogen is reacted inside a fuel cell then efficiency of electrical production is around 50% and this electricity can be utilised at 98% efficiency by hub motors. This is further enhanced by using regenerative breaking to recharge on board peaking batteries.
This efficiency goes far and away above the efficiency of typical gasoline drive trains which might be in the order of 20-25% all told.
The high efficiency of fuel cell powered vehicles means that much LESS water will be emitted by a fuel cell vehicle for an equivalent distance travelled.
Also, if the hydrogen is manufactured from water via electrolysis then no net water will be emitted at all.
The most important benefit from switching to hydrogen fuels has nothing to do with CO2. It is to do with reducing photochemical smog and ground level ozone production which is a direct result of hydrocarbon combustion in automobile engines. City air pollution is a huge health issue and needs to be addressed urgently in all major industrial nations.
There is middle ground here where people who are rightly concerned about point source pollution can join hands with those concerned about the destruction of the scientific method by the CO2 high priests but sadly this article misses the mark.

MattN
July 15, 2014 9:42 am

Since water is also produced when burning a hydrocarbon, exactly how much more are you going to have with straight hydrogen?
Also, if these tanks are liquid hydrogen, you can assume minimum 1% probably 2% loss per day. Those tanks HAVE to vent. Our H2 bulk tank on the other side of the parking lot loses 1.3%/day average.

MikeH
July 15, 2014 10:13 am

Interesting thought on the “Unintended Consequences” aspect. I never thought of the water vapor aspect. I have long thought that we would eventually migrate to a Hydrogen based fuel cycle, away from the Hydro-Carbon we currently have. I had discussions on other sites (long ago) about Hydrogen storage for use in vehicles, and even at home. One of the possible solutions was to store it in a Nickle alloy:
http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/hydrogen/overview.php
Please note that I’m posting that link just as a point of reference, it was the result of a very quick web search, I do not pretend to comprehend the chemistry aspects. And I do not know the background of the above company, I just link it to provide a little background on storing H2 in a solid form. From what I understand, more H2 may be stored in this solid form than could be in liquid form. Plus to release any H2, the NiMh would need to be heated above normal room temperature, so storage in a car could be safer and reduce the leak rate. But that would reduce the efficiency, needing energy to release the H2. Once spent, the NiMh could be recharged with fresh H2. The NiMh could be in a granular from, to allow for easy refueling. As for accidental release, especially from a liquid/gas form, H2 would rise up from the ‘accident scene’ and dissipate. Something like LNG leaking, or Gasoline vapor would stay on the ground and pool in the lowest elevation, gaining in concentration until an ignition source releases its energy.
As for leaking plumbing/connections, I would offer the solution of a double wall fuel tube, where the inner tube delivers the H2, the outer tube would be fed to a recovery fuel cell to burn off the errant vapor and recover the energy. Double wall gas delivery is very common with dangerous chemicals, Flourine (ArF / KrF) gas for Eximer lasers as an example.
There are challenges with any form of energy we choose to use, which provides opportunities for engineering solutions. None are perfect, but we need to find the right blend with the most efficient and cost effective use. What I post above are just random thoughts, I could be completely wrong, just ask my wife, she’s the one to keep track of that, she’ll let you know.

Gamecock
July 15, 2014 10:53 am

M Courtney says:
July 15, 2014 at 2:10 am
Obvious points:
1 If the hydrogen is split out from water then burning it causes no net increase in water vapour. We are back where we started.
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Nope. Unless the plan is to electrolyze water vapour (you British?), the overall process will create water vapor from liquid water. Not where we started.

Wyatt Storch
July 15, 2014 11:33 am

Energy density is an issue even if you go through the expense of liquefying the hydrogen, which has significant refrigeration costs (I haven’t seen those mentioned). There is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen.

J Martin
July 15, 2014 1:04 pm

If every gallon of fossil fuel we burn produces a gallon of water, worldwwide over the course of a year is that enough to be a part of sea level rise ?
From Wikepedia It is estimated that between 100 and 135 billion tonnes of oil has been consumed between 1850 and the present. Taking a tonne to be a cubic metre then 120 billion cubic metres of exta water divided across the surface of the ocean (335 million sq km) gives an increase in sea level of a third of a millimeter over the last 165 years.
OK, unless I botched the calculation, then the contribution of fossil fuel use to sea level rise is effectively nothing. Probably to be expected, otherwise Greepeace would have made sure we all knew about it.