Readers may recall the contentious discussions that occurred on this thread a couple of weeks back. Both Willis Eschenbach and Dr. Leif Svalgaard were quite combative over the fact that the model data had not been released. But that aside, there is good news.
David Archibald writes in to tell us that the model has been released and that we can examine it. Links to the details follow.
While this is a very welcome update, from my viewpoint the timing of this could not be worse, given that a number of people including myself are in the middle of the ICCC9 conference in Las Vegas.
I have not looked at this model, but I’m passing it along for readers to examine themselves. Perhaps I and others will be able to get to it in a few days, but for now I’m passing it along without comment.
Archibald writes:
There is plenty to chew on. Being able to forecast turns in climate a decade in advance will have great commercial utility. To reiterate, the model is predicting a large drop in temperature from right about now:
David Evans has made his climate model available for download here.
The home for all things pertaining to the model is: http://sciencespeak.com/climate-nd-solar.html
UPDATE2:
For fairness and to promote a fuller understanding, here are some replies from Joanne Nova
sakhara says:
July 8, 2014 at 5:13 pm
Thanks, sakhara. Unfortunately, it still doesn’t run on my mac. However, I finally got it to run by just cutting out the various calls to the clock, which times the execution.
Having said that, I still can’t test the model. The proper test for this kind of model is to train the model on the first half of the data, and then see how well it predicts the second half of the data. Looking at the quality of the fit of the model is meaningless—it’s trivial to train a model to reproduce a given sample.
Unfortunately, we can’t do any out-of-sample tests because David still hasn’t released the part of the model that fits the 11, count’em 11, arbitrary parameters.
Your assistance is much appreciated,
w.
Huh I confirmed the 64bit bug on David’s. Saw the fix. And have been on the road since.
I made it clear what I wanted to test. Same as Willis.
crosspatch says:
July 8, 2014 at 5:56 pm
This is going to be very easy and there should not be any argument whatsoever. It is going to be proved out by purely empirical means. Sit back, relax, and see what happens.
Even if the forecast turns out to be in the ballpark, that does not prove anything at all, as Evans could be right for the wrong reason. If the forecast fails, it could simply be because the ‘parameter set’ chosen was not the right one. There could be another parameter set that would have given the correct forecast.
this model makes a prediction, temperatures will drop a certain amount over the next decade. Full stop. If it does all you naysayers and complainers SHUT UP AND GO HOME !! if it doesnt you can say I told you so and David and Jo will go back to the drawing board. The IPCC models predict temp rise (hint it aint happening yet) I dont think any of their code is available nor are the “science” and assumptions behind them published anywhere for people to examine. David has explained most things in an open and honest way, those of you complaining about it being too complex or too messy or too much info or not enough info, look at the results, read the posts that takeyou by the hand and help you through the nasty theory that conflicts with your entrenched beliefs. or better yet SHUT UP AND GO HOME!! (and put some wood on the fire and cuddle up under the duvet as its going to get cold…..
To falsify the claims that are made by a model one has to be able to be able to make the counts that are called “frequencies” in statistics. I don’t believe that these counts can be made with respect to Dr. Evans’s model. If I’m wrong, I wish someone would tell me of how I’ve erred.
Brad says:
July 8, 2014 at 5:51 pm
I investigated the problem and found exactly where it was coming from. I reported it here. I am extremely reluctant to post anything at Jo’s website, because at this point it is infested with people like yourself who will never be satisfied with what I do. In any case, the same bug was indeed reported there by others.
w.
Now we have sceptics that think they know there is enough human knowledge to know climate like warmists say…
What could be worse.?
Stupendus says:
July 8, 2014 at 6:07 pm
A perfect example of how little you actually know about the subject …
w.
Priceless. People complain all the time about AGW paywalled studies and research by media. Or grey papers filled with unvetted sciency sounding proclamations with no research to back it up. We cheer when skeptics, after great effort, finally get the stuff needed from the AGW crowd for reproducibility, validity, and sound science critique of CO2 global warming. Apparently we can’t do that with our own side. Poppy Cock.
If you can’t stand the heat of laser beamed scrutiny of skeptic proposals that is as good as we give to the AGW side, you should just be a spectator.
Steven Mosher says:
July 8, 2014 at 5:31 pm
Thanks Willis.
I made it clear at David’s that I thought his use of bad tsi data to derive his model was the first choice I would want to test.
The spreadsheet is useless to investigate the actual scientific decisions he made.
So test it. You have the data. You have the spreadsheet. You have (I assume) the ability to understand it. So test it. Stop slagging from the sidelines and prove him wrong. Or is that beyond your capabilities? He has provided a model and expected output. Identify the error. There are equations. You don’t have to know where x, y and z come from if you can show that the relation between x, y and z is not supported by the data. So show us where the relation is not supported by the data. If you can’t, you do not have the knowledge to say he can, in which case you are no better than sunshine guy.
Regarding the “scientific” decisions made. That is a cheap and easy cop out. There are things done today that are not fully understood, except on an empirical basis. The operation of a ball mill in a mining plant comes to mind. No one has an exact explanation of how energy is translated into broken rock, but people build billion dollar facilities, based on things like Dr. Evans spreadsheet. For those versed in the alchemy of mineral processing, yes I am familiar with Bond’s work. It is very much empirical and often less than predictive.
Oops. I wrote “Poppy C***” with all the letters and now I am in potty mouth moderation. LOL!
[ok – we are done with the food fight Brad, you don’t like what Willis has to say, we get it…move on to something relevant like posting what you’ve learned from the model – Anthony]
When I heard that Phil Jones did not know how to do a linear regression my first reaction was SHAME! but then I wondered if it meant he did not know how to calculate squared error, take derivatives, and solve equations for a line (true SHAME) or if he simply did not know how to use Excel to do it. My Microsoft Office has Excel but I have never used it. I don’t know how, and I am honest-to-goodness too old to take the time. [I do know how to write my OWN equations to fit least-squares curves in a language of my choice (Matlab for myself).]
So David’s Excel spread sheet does me no good. That’s my failing of course. But in a community that does well in R, Matlab, C, and even Fortran, why take the Excel route? In a model that supposedly uses signal processing, why not Matlab, C, or R? The point being that if we must work in what is not a familiar software platform, we need considerable incentive that something very good is being revealed for our efforts, and I don’t think we have this here as a viable potential. What is needed is a regular “scientific paper” of perhaps a max of 5 pages and 5 illustrations. Of course, it need not be peer reviewed. How hard is that? Yes – I know, it’s NOT easy!
When I first saw the release of the notch-filter model I was quite enthusiastic to have an engineer, an EE in fact, and a DSP engineer making an offering. Here was something I should be able to understand. I was amazed however to find a proposal for a physically generated notch (very unlikely), and that the notch was non-causal (quite absurd) and watched for explanations, and even asked questions at Jo’s site. Two things were (sadly) apparent:
David’s notch was inferred from a suspect ratio of Fourier transforms, and David did not really understand filters. In addition, he doubled down on Jo’s site with regard to the non-causality [“It is well known that notch filters are non-causal,” June 20, 2014, and “The step response of the complete model above, in Figure 4, is causal — but without the delay it is not.” June 21] This despite protests from myself and other engineers, and even my photo of a scope trace:
http://electronotes.netfirms.com/NotchStep.jpg
to which David replied, June 21, “Bernie I’ve no idea and am not going to debug and figure out what you have done exactly.” What it was was a simple experiment! I wasn’t asking him to “debug” my work, but rather his own. Neither, by the way, does his added delay make HIS non-causal notch causal, as his had neither the symmetry nor the asymptotic properties to do so. (If he needs a delay for his model, just use a delay, but don’t blame it on a notch.) David further said things (like Butterworth was only low-pass) which indicated to me that he did not know filters very well. My sincere efforts (and the sincere efforts of others) were apparently not appreciated at Jo’s. It’s just engineering after all.
Then along came “Force X” and nuclear winter, and so much playing with tiny effects, and fine tuning.
I like Jo and David, and have three or four times supported Jo’s site “tip jar”, and expect to do so more in the future.
With 11 parameters, I want to know where they came from. From what research. Based on what mechanism, from what calculation. And are the factors a reasonable facsimile of in-situ conditions? The same necessary curiosity exists for CO2 and aerosol factors in models used to generate IPPC AGW papers.
I’m not about to play with fudge factors to run a model till I know from whence and how the factors came to be the chosen ones. I expect no less of AGW modelers. And guess what folks? In well documented articles, they are there. Should we be giving ourselves a pass and not do that?
For those of you who think AGW and ENSO modelers don’t divulge this information, they do. In fact they are pretty good at that kind of documentation. Let me take a bit of time here and I’ll post a link to one.
Thank you Anthony,
Throwing out the baby with the bath water is never useful.
Anthony says in response:
“REPLY: Because I’m in the middle of ICCC9, and I have other duties that prevent me from able to give my full attention. Do you expect me to drop everything? Two of WUWT’s moderators are also at the conference. They can’t help either.
I can’t please everybody, and I can’t watch comments in the middle of a conference. Perhaps I should have waited until next week…but that would get criticism too….so there’s no easy option for me at this time. Anthony”
Anthony,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
I realize you are booked solid and fully understand, having attended two conferences in the past two months, they are killers mentally.
As an expansion to my question, why do you think you need to drop everything for this release? No one was asking you to, or expecting you to. There is no timeline on this, the model is now out there and ready for review, at your leisure. No deadlines involved.
I made the decision to donate the funds to David and Jo that I would have spent going to the conference. Both are important but I am a nobody where climate science is concerned, so I felt my money was better spent helping their research.
We all need to work together to stop the “CO2 machine” from destroying the world’s economy, and future generations. Maybe an addition to the mission statement prohibiting cross-blog sniping should be considered? Stop the illogical arguments? Just thinking out loud here…
Respectfully,
Brad
Pamela Gray says:
July 8, 2014 at 6:11 pm
If you can’t stand the heat of laser beamed scrutiny of skeptic proposals that is as good as we give to the AGW side, you should just be a spectator.
Well. That gave me pause. I don’t have a come back for that. I will say this (and make the previous assertion false). Dr. Evans is not the one who “can’t stand the heat of lase(r) beamed scrutiny”. It is dolts like me that are arguing here. Anyway. He and his wife have held their fire until the next phase of their phased publication. This is a brilliant procedure. Start with the hypothesis (the previous 7 posts about the “big discovery”). Look at the critiques. Pay special attention to those who should know what they are talking about and (the following is “step a”) see if the hypothesis crumbles. If yes. Oh crap. Look the fool don’t I. If no. (end “step a”) publish the algorithm, go to step a. Still not the fool? Publish the derivations and methods for developing the parameters in the equations. Go to step a. In the mean time, address all of the legitimate issues with each step. It is crowd sourced science and it is brilliant. Who needs peer reviewed literature? We have Willis, Leif and Steven to hold the author’s feet to the fire and that is at the friendly site. I have no idea whether Dr Evans’ work is gold or total crap. I can assure you that if it passes muster with the critics here, it is indeed gold and much more credible than anything published in “Science” or other “peer reviewed literature”.
This week central MN is forecast not to reach 80 F. Today feels like late August or mid-September.
Who cares about data when one can author paragraphs of this dreck:
“Gary. Listen carefully. Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) includes all infrared radiation frequencies emminating from the Sun, including UV. Visible light is a very good source of heat. In fact all the shorter-wave infrareds are a very good source of heat. UV is in the much shorter-wave range and is a much smaller portion of the entire solar irradiance. It is also not as energetic in terms of its ability to heat up a large body of water. It’s very good at killing stuff. It just isn’t that good at heating water. So if variations in the entire solar spectrum, including the powerful heat-warming portion of solar irradiance does not appreciabily show a connection with surface temperatures, how do you think the much smaller less heat-producing portion would be?”
High Schoolers need their drivel pre-digested.
Wavelength is inversely proportional to energy.
John Eggert says:
July 8, 2014 at 6:38 pm
Maybe a paradigm for certain kinds of scientific papers in the 21st century, the 20th century approach of peer review (so-called) having failed or been corrupted in too many cases.
Personally, I’m suspect because of the apparent hind-casing failures, but maybe that’s fixable or tunable. Wonder about the nuke aspect, too, but hey, almost anything is better than the worse than worthless, epically failed CO2 assumption-based GCMs that have been foisted upon the world at such cost.
Hindcasting.
http://www.easterbrook.ca/steve/2009/06/getting-the-source-code-for-climate-models/
As I said, the good ones have code available, some only to registered/licensed users, and the really good ones have it available as an open source code. But some modelers think the entire world speaks Chinese and you can’t have any of their stuff.
John Eggert says:
July 8, 2014 at 6:38 pm
I think I see what you’re saying. Maybe not, but looking at the process is interesting in itself. Even if this doesn’t work out, one could review the evolution and the steps of the process and learn something. The feedback they are getting may have value. As far as I know they’ve tried something new, and in the future others will follow them in ways that are similar.
I am reminded of a quote, “I know you’ve taken it in the teeth out there, but the first guy through the wall. It always gets bloody, always. It’s the threat of not just the way of doing business, but in their minds it’s threatening the game.” – Moneyball
@Leif
Even if the forecast turns out to be in the ballpark, that does not prove anything at all, as Evans could be right for the wrong reason.
Dr Evans said as much himself. What he says is that if the global temp does not drop by at least 0.1C, starting at around 2017, the model is falsified and it should be thrown away, but if they do then the model has not been falsified.
And why this is interesting is because the CO2 model is roughly similar to the solar-notch model but suggests that temps should continue to go up. From the late 20C to now, the solar model would have predicted temps to go up, meaning there would have been no way of telling the CO2 model or the solar model apart. But now, the two models definitely diverge, and he makes a definite prediction that could falsify the model – and really soon.
I really don’t sere why you don’t seem to grasp how he is approaching this. He is not using the model to assert “this is how the climate system works”, he is using at as an instrument to see if there is a solar factor influencing the climate worth identifying and investigating. Which is why he invokes ‘force x’ an unknown factor that influences the climate. And it’s why the model is relatively insensitive to the accuracy of TSI data sets used as they merely need to agree on timing and trend. It’s not about getting a perfect measurement, but to see if there is signal/relationship at all.
He knows the model is wrong. It has to be. He has made assumptions in creating the model he himself is skeptical of, for example, treating the climate system as if it has a linear response to external forcings. But it might be linear enough, he thinks, modelling it that way could tell us something useful. He knows it has to be wrong because it takes no account of GHG changes, or internal natural variability that might be at play.
He said himself, in the first blog post, that even if temps drop as the model predicts, all he will be able to say is that the model is not falsified, which is a long way from saying he is right…or that the model is validated.
Agnostic says:
July 8, 2014 at 7:17 pm
You describe the scientific method.
Galileo’s observations of the phases of Venus falsified (showed false) the Ptolemaic, geocentric model, without necessarily confirming the Copernican heliocentric model. Still on offer was Tycho’s middle way as well.
Good quote Gary, and I am still right. Here is the % of energy for UV out of the total watts/m2 of TOA total solar irradiance wavelengths 200-2000: 5%. I stand by my statement. UV, at 5% isn’t nearly as good as visible light and infrared (comprises 95% of total energy) in heating oceans. No contest.
http://www.newport.com/Technical-Note-Solar-Simulator-Sample-Calculations/412211/1033/content.aspx
And UV is very good at killing stuff. Hell you can sterilize with the damn stuff.