Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In a recent interchange over at Joanne Nova’s always interesting blog, I’d said that the slow changes in the sun have little effect on temperature. Someone asked me, well, what about the cold temperatures during the Maunder and Dalton sunspot minima? And I thought … hey, what about them? I realized that like everyone else, up until now I’ve just accepted the idea of cold temperatures being a result of the solar minima as an article of faith … but I’d never actually looked at the data. And in any case, I thought, what temperature data would we have for the Maunder sunspot minimum, which lasted from 1645 to 1715? So … I went back to the original sources, which as always is a very interesting ride, and I learned a lot.
It turns out that this strong association of sunspot minima and temperature is a fairly recent development. Modern interest in the Maunder sunspot minimum was sparked by John Eddy’s 1976 publication of a paper in Science entitled “The Maunder Minimum”. In that paper, Eddy briefly discusses the question of the relationship between the Maunder sunspot minimum and the global temperature, viz:
The coincidence of Maunder’s “prolonged solar minimum” with the coldest excursion of the “Little Ice Age” has been noted by many who have looked at the possible relations between the sun and terrestrial climate (73). A lasting tree-ring anomaly which spans the same period has been cited as evidence of a concurrent drought in the American Southwest (68, 74). There is also a nearly 1 : 1 agreement in sense and time between major excursions in world temperature (as best they are known) and the earlier excursions of the envelope of solar behavior in the record of 14C, particularly when a 14C lag time is allowed for: the Sporer Minimum of the 16th century is coincident with the other severe temperature dip of the Little Ice Age, and the Grand Maximum coincides with the “medieval Climatic Optimum” of the 11th through 13th centuries (75, 76). These coincidences suggest a possible relationship between the overall envelope of the curve of solar activity and terrestrial climate in which the 11-year solar cycle may be effectively filtered out or simply unrelated to the problem. The mechanism of this solar effect on climate may be the simple one of ponderous long-term changes of small amount in the total radiative output of the sun, or solar constant. These long-term drifts in solar radiation may modulate the envelope of the solar cycle through the solar dynamo to produce the observed long-term trends in solar activity. The continuity, or phase, of the 11-year cycle would be independent of this slow, radiative change, but the amplitude could be controlled by it. According to this interpretation, the cyclic coming and going of sunspots would have little effect on the output of solar radiation, or presumably on weather, but the long-term envelope of sunspot activity carries the indelible signature of slow changes in solar radiation which surely affect our climate (77). [see paper for references]
Now, I have to confess, that all struck me as very weak, with more “suggest” and “maybe” and “could” than I prefer in my science. So I thought I’d look to see where he was getting the temperature data to support his claims. It turns out that he was basing his opinion of the temperature during the Maunder minimum on a climate index from H. H. Lamb, viz:
The Little Ice Age lasted roughly from 1430 to 1850 … if we take H. H. Lamb’s index of Paris London Winter Severity as a global indicator.
After some searching, I found the noted climatologist H. H. Lamb’s England winter severity index in his 1965 paper The Early Medieval Warm Epoch And Its Sequel. He doesn’t give the values for his index, but I digitized his graph. Here are Lamb’s results, showing the winter severity in England. Lower values mean more severe winters.
So let me pose you a small puzzle. Knowing that Eddy is basing his claims about a cold Maunder minimum on Lamb’s winter severity index … where in Lamb’s winter severity index would you say that we would find the Maunder and Dalton minima? …
Figure 1. H.H. Lamb’s index of winter severity in England.
As you can see, there is a reasonable variety in the severity of the winters in England. However, it is not immediately apparent just where in there we might find the Maunder and Dalton minima, although there are several clear possibilities. So to move the discussion along, let me reveal where they are:
Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with the dates of the Maunder and Dalton minima added.
As we might expect, the Maunder minimum is the coldest part of the record. The Dalton minimum is also cold, but not as cold as the Maunder minimum, again as we’d expect. Both of them have warmer periods both before and after the minima, illustrating the effect of the sun on the … on the … hang on … hmmm, that doesn’t look right … let me check my figures …
…
…
…
… uh-oh
…
…
Well, imagine that. I forgot to divide by the square root of minus one, so I got the dates kinda mixed up, and I put both the Maunder and the Dalton 220 years early … here are the actual dates of the solar minima shown in Lamb’s winter severity index.
Figure 3. H.H. Lamb’s England winter severity index, 1100-1950, overlaid with the actual dates of the four solar minima ascribed to that period. Values are decadal averages 1100-1110,1110-1120, etc., and are centered on the decade.
As you can see …
• The cooling during the Wolf minimum is indistinguishable from the two immediately previous episodes of cooling, none of which get much below the overall average.
• The temperature during the Sporer minimum is warmer than the temperature before and after the minimum.
• The coldest and second coldest decades in the record were not associated with solar minima.
• The fastest cooling in the record, from the 1425 decade to the 1435 decade, also was not associated with a solar minimum.
• Contrary to what we’d expect, the Maunder minimum warmed from start to finish.
• The Dalton minimum is unremarkable in any manner other than being warmer than the decade before the start and the decade after the end of the minimum. Oh, and like the Maunder, it also warmed steadily over the period of the minimum.
Urk … that’s what Eddy based his claims on. Not impressed.
Let me digress with a bit of history. I began this solar expedition over a decade ago thinking, along with many others, that as they say, “It’s the sun, stupid!”. I, and many other people, took it as an unquestioned and unexamined “fact” that the small variations of the sun, both the 11-year cycles and the solar minima, had a discernible effect on the temperature. As a result, I spent endless hours investigating things like the barycentric movement of the sun. I went so far as to write a spreadsheet to calculate the barycentric movement for any period of history, and compared those results to the temperatures.
But the more I looked, the less I found. So I started looking at the various papers claiming that the 11-year cycle was visible in various climate datasets … still nothing. To date, I’ve written up and posted the results of my search for the 11-year cycle in global sea levels, the Central England Temperature record, sea surface temperatures, tropospheric temperatures, global surface temperatures, rainfall amounts, the Armagh Observatory temperatures, the Armagh Observatory daily temperature ranges, river flows, individual tidal stations, solar wind, the 10Beryllium ice core data, and some others I’ve forgotten … nothing.
Not one of them shows any significant 11-year cycle.
And now, for the first time I’m looking at temperature effects of the solar minima … and I’m in the same boat. The more I look, the less I find.
However, we do have some actual observational evidence for the time period of the most recent of the minima, the Dalton minimum, because the Berkeley Earth temperature record goes back to 1750. And while the record is fragmentary and based on a small number of stations, it’s the best we have, and it is likely quite good for comparison of nearby decades. In any case, here are those results:
Figure 4. The Berkeley Earth land temperature anomaly data, along with the Dalton minimum.
Once again, the data absolutely doesn’t support the idea of the sun ruling the temperature. IF the sun indeed caused the variations during the Dalton minimum, it first made the temperature rise, then fall, then rise again to where it started … sorry, but that doesn’t look anything like what we’d expect. For example, if the low spot around 1815 is caused by low solar input, then why does the temperature start rising then, and rise steadily until the end of the Dalton minimum, while the solar input is not rising at all?
So once again, I can’t find evidence to support the theory. As a result, I will throw the question open to the adherents of the theory … what, in your estimation, is the one best piece of temperature evidence that shows that the solar minima cause cold spells?
Now, a few caveats. First, I want to enlist your knowledge and wisdom in the search, so please just give me your one best shot. I’m not interested in someone dumping the results of a google search for “Maunder” on my desk. I want to know what YOU think is the very best evidence that solar minima cause global cooling.
Next, don’t bother saying “the Little Ice Age is the best evidence”. Yes, the Maunder occurred during the Little Ice Age (LIA). But the Lamb index says that the temperature warmed from the start of the Maunder until the end. Neither the Maunder’s location, which was quite late in the LIA, nor the warming Lamb shows from the start to the end of the Maunder, support the idea that the sun caused the LIA cooling.
Next, please don’t fall into the trap of considering climate model results as data. The problem, as I have shown in a number of posts, is that the global temperature outputs of the modern crop of climate models are nothing but linear transforms of their inputs. And since the models include solar variations among their inputs, those solar variations will indeed appear in the model outputs. If you think that is evidence for solar forcing of temperature … well, this is not the thread for you. So no climate model results, please.
So … what do you think is the one very best piece of evidence that the solar minima actually do affect the temperature, the evidence that you’d stand behind and defend?
My regards to you all,
w.
[UPDATE] In the comments, someone said that the Central England Temperature record shows the cooling effects of the solar minima … I’m not finding it:


As you can see, there is very little support for the “solar minima cause cool temperatures” hypothesis in the CET. Just as in the Lamb winter severity data and the Berkeley Earth data, during both the Dalton and Maunder minima we see the temperature WARMING for the last part of the solar minimum. IF the cause is in fact a solar slump … then why would the earth warm up while the sun is still slumping? And in particular, in the CET the Dalton minimum ends up quite a bit warmer than it started … how on earth does this support the “solar slump” claim, that at the end of the Dalton minimum it’s warmer than at the start?
The Usual Request: I know this almost never happens, but if you disagree with something that I or someone else has said, please have the common courtesy to QUOTE THEIR EXACT WORDS that you disagree with. This prevents much confusion and misunderstanding.
Data: Eddy’s paper, The Maunder Minimum
Lamb’s paper, The Early Medieval Warm Epoch And Its Sequel
Berkeley Earth, land temperature anomalies
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
lsvalgaard says:
June 24, 2014 at 7:36 am
If not known, then the null-hypothesis must be that there is no major influence.
=====
Leif, thanks for a great example of word-smithing…..
The null would be…..we don’t know
Jim G says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:03 am
Unless one continues to think in single variable linear terms, there is also no evidence for your 0.1 degree estimate of solar involvement.
When changes are small, everything is linear. There are claims of a solar cycle effect of the order of 0.1C, but it is true that that effect is so small that it is almost lost in the noise.
The 0.1C effect is what we expect solely because of the variation of TSI over a cycle. If that variation has no effect, then we need to explain why, and what is your explanation for the lack of effect?
Latitude says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:04 am
The null would be…..we don’t know
As Wittgenstein noted “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent”.
lsvalgaard says:
“Even if solar activity was nearly the same in the 19th century as in the 20th.”
It was not, there were two grand minima in the 19th century. The 20th century only had the the last cycle of the Gleissberg Minimum.
Ulric Lyons says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:14 am
It was not, there were two grand minima in the 19th century. The 20th century only had the last cycle of the Gleissberg Minimum.
Not so: http://www.leif.org/research/New-Group-Numbers.png
Latitude:
At June 24, 2014 at 8:04 am you write
NO! Absolutely not. You are rejecting the scientific method.
lsvalgaard is right and you are wrong.
The Null Hypothesis says it must be assumed a system has not experienced a change unless there is evidence of a change.
The Null Hypothesis is a fundamental scientific principle and it forms the basis of all scientific understanding, investigation and interpretation. Indeed, it is the basic principle of experimental procedure where an input to a system is altered to discern a change: if the system is not observed to respond to the alteration then it has to be assumed the system did not respond to the alteration.
In this case the assertion was that solar changes would affect climate. The affects on climate are not observed so the Null Hypothesis says the solar changes did not induce them to a discernible degree.
Of course, the Null Hypothesis may be wrong because other effects masked the investigated affects. It is always possible that the Null Hypothesis is wrong but the scientific method decrees that its indications must be accepted in the absence of other evidence.
Richard
Richard, you just said we don’t know enough to know if the null applies or not…….
…which was exactly my point
Latitude says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:20 am
Richard, you just said we don’t know enough to know if the null applies or not…….
…which was exactly my point
The null has to do with what we observe, not with what you think we know.
I always thought it was the Sun too but am becoming increasingly doubtful that the Sun had anything more than perhaps a slight effect on the LIA.
Unfortunately for the hard-core denialists here it may be a decrease in CO2.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/columbus-arrival-linked-carbon-dioxide-drop
Latitude:
At June 24, 2014 at 8:20 am you say to me
I fail to understand why you think I said that. I wrote
Richard
I think it is high time that these discussions find someone who follows the course of events and to troubleshoot this, to date, the most difficult puzzles of which depends on many human activities.
I again, who knows the way, participants could help me by giving me the right address, I declare my evidence about the real causes of all events on the sun, and thus climate change which are the main indicators of the sunspot cycle. If this is read the owner and editor of this magazine, then I ask him to help me how to find the right place where I can express my proof of the solution of this enigma. These discussions can last for several hundred years, which again is not going to find a real and true causes of the sun. Maybe I’m not versed in the rules of publishing houses and these discussions, but it seems that no one has any interest to get this resolved. Why are you afraid to tell someone where they can present evidence, but with a contractual obligation, because the solution to this puzzle is worth several trillion dollars of mankind, provided that the proof is correct. To all of you strange when I offer a solution, which is logical, because I’m an unknown figure in science. I’m trying for several years to publish other works, which are adjusted current scientific evidence (König’s theorem, Kepler’s laws, irregular motion of the planets, causing spin the planet, causing retrograde planets, and the like. Seems that the science can be taught only as a member of a rich group ( Mason), or if paid in advance for membership, regardless of what kind of benefits the science. come to my time when many will pray to know the truth, but then may be too late.
To you I say to all: the cycle of the sunspots average of 11.2 years is base to which are connected to many other cycles that you do not want to know, nor without it can resolve the issue.
Anthony:
Since there was no information on what you “spiked” from V., I cannot address that matter. As you say you can and should “reserve the right”. There is an implication that it had something to do with sunspot cycles, and plate tectonics, which I would also agree would probably be rather specious. And, the other case, would be the total non-sequitor comment. This would be deserving of the elimination also. Plate tectonics would seem to involve things more on the geologic time scale, which would bode to climate influences ALSO on that time scale. That may be of interest, but as you noted, in a separate discussion.
Nikola Milovic says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:28 am
I again, who knows the way, participants could help me by giving me the right address, I declare my evidence about the real causes of all events on the sun, and thus climate change which are the main indicators of the sunspot cycle.
One way would be to write it up and submit it as a guest post to WUWT.
“….And while the record is fragmentary and based on a small number of stations, it’s the best we have”
What you have just isn’t good enough. If you don’t have the data, you can’t prove or disprove anything.
Leif Willis Mosher etc y’all might profitably look at the Figs (esp 3) in Yamaguchi et al
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/48/20697.full
here’s the abstract
“The Maunder Minimum (A.D. 1645–1715) is a useful period to
investigate possible sun–climate linkages as sunspots became
exceedingly rare and the characteristics of solar cycles were different
from those of today. Here, we report annual variations in the
oxygen isotopic composition (δ18O) of tree-ring cellulose in central
Japan during the Maunder Minimum. We were able to explore possible
sun–climate connections through high-temporal resolution
solar activity (radiocarbon contents; Δ14C) and climate (δ18O) isotope
records derived from annual tree rings. The tree-ring δ18O
record in Japan shows distinct negative δ18O spikes (wetter rainy
seasons) coinciding with rapid cooling in Greenland and with
decreases in Northern Hemisphere mean temperature at around
minima of decadal solar cycles. We have determined that the
climate signals in all three records strongly correlate with changes
in the polarity of solar dipole magnetic field, suggesting a causal
link to galactic cosmic rays (GCRs). These findings are further
supported by a comparison between the interannual patterns of
tree-ring δ18O record and the GCR flux reconstructed by an ice-core
10Be record. Therefore, the variation of GCR flux associated with
the multidecadal cycles of solar magnetic field seem to be causally
related to the significant and widespread climate changes at least
during the Maunder Minimum.”
Leif I suppose you don’ agree with the Pedro et al quote I posted earlier.
“The value of the Steinhilber interpretations is indicated in the following link posted earlier by Sturgishooper
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X12004748
“This suggests that studies which assimilate bipolar composite 10Be records in solar or cosmic ray
intensity reconstructions (e.g. Steinhilber et al., 2012), or variants,
such as the leading principal component of multiple records (e.g.
Muscheler et al., 2007b) are less likely to introduce spurious
climate-related signals than those assimilating 10Be records from
individual sites (e.g. Bard et al., 2000; Vonmoos et al., 2006;
Shapiro et al., 2011). Using multiple 10Be records in addition to
cosmogenic 14C (from tree rings), which has a very different
geochemical behaviour to 10Be, can help to further decouple the
climate signal from the 10Be record (e.g. Muscheler et al., 2007b;
Usoskin et al., 2009; Steinhilber et al., 2012″
“Dr Norman Page says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:38 am
Leif Willis Mosher etc y’all might profitably look at the Figs (esp 3) in Yamaguchi et al”
I see nothing in that paper that supports the contention that the grand minimums caused a cooler planet.
1. They cite a change in GCR. However, looking at the highest resolution measured data we have
on GCR, clouds, and temperature we can find no relationship between GCR and temperature.
2. They use proxies from one limited area of the globe.
3. they cite Mann 99 for a recon on the NH
Epic fail.
Please do not tell me that the REASON YOU BELIEVE is a study that uses mann 99
Dr Norman Page says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:38 am
y’all might profitably look at the Figs (esp 3) in Yamaguchi et al
“10Be record. Therefore, the variation of GCR flux associated with
the multidecadal cycles of solar magnetic field seem to be causally
related to the significant and widespread climate changes at least
during the Maunder Minimum.”
Although I value the opinion of my good friend Miyahara, there is little profit to extract from their paper. They advocate a 22-yr cycle impulse of short duration, based on superposed epoch analysis of only four cycles. This is much too short for any firm conclusion. If they would extend that analysis to the many more cycles that we actually have, their paper would be of interest.
Leif I suppose you don’ agree with the Pedro et al quote I posted earlier.
Many researchers do not agree with Pedro et al. There is a strong climate signal in the cosmic ray record [as strong or stronger than the solar modulation] so no real conclusions can be drawn.
Your problem is selective attention to papers that support your ideas without consideration of others that do not. I have yet to see your list of non-supportive papers. Perhaps you could take some time to compile such a list.
Where can one find a copy of the data for the “new” SSN’s? Also, have there been changes to the official dates for the various cycle maxima and minima?
william says:
June 24, 2014 at 7:41 am
I believe that the discussion has degraded to the level of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We cant know even assuming they exist. That pretty sums up our knowledge of the climate. It changes and we really dont know why so arguing about what level of co2 or sunspots it takes to change the weather seems pointless.
———————————————
There is nothing wrong with looking for answers but I would agree with you. My analogy to predicting climate is to get in a small boat in the middle of the ocean and predict by how much and when waves will move you up and down… with your eyes closed. All you have to go on is past up and down motions and your records of those are pretty spotty. Good luck.
RomanM says:
June 24, 2014 at 9:02 am
Where can one find a copy of the data for the “new” SSN’s? Also, have there been changes to the official dates for the various cycle maxima and minima?
As the data is still being finalized you will have to be content with an approximate list [which should be good for most kinds of studies]: Take the official SIDC/SILSO list and increase all values before 1947 by 20% or decrease all post-1946 values by 20% [which is what we decided to do]. The times of maxima and minima are not affected.
“Paul Westhaver says:
June 24, 2014 at 8:37 am
“….And while the record is fragmentary and based on a small number of stations, it’s the best we have”
What you have just isn’t good enough. If you don’t have the data, you can’t prove or disprove anything.”
##################
science is not about proof. math and geometry and logic do proofs.
Science is about the best explanation for the data as given.
That means you use the data you have to constrain belief, to bound belief, to rule out as much as you can. You use the data as given to create the best explanation given the data. And then you work to improve that.
lsvalgaard says:
“Not so”
Yes it is so, Dalton was cycles 5&6, Gleissberg was cycles 12-14. Four cycles effected by solar minima in the 19th century, and one cycle effected in the 20th century.
lsvalgaard says:
June 24, 2014 at 9:10 am
Thanks.
Ulric Lyons says:
June 24, 2014 at 9:14 am
Yes it is so, Dalton was cycles 5&6, Gleissberg was cycles 12-14.
Too much wishful thinking on your part. SC15-16 were on par with SC12-13 and the smallest cycle in that era was SC14 in the 20th century. SC23-24 would be the next minimum and yet the temperatures now are higher than ‘ever’, e.g. http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2705
So, no evidence for your contention.
[snip . . perhaps you could just point out their errors rather than saying they should just be got rid of . . thanks . . mod]
“The Null Hypothesis is a fundamental scientific principle and it forms the basis of all scientific understanding, investigation and interpretation.”
Wrong. The null hypothesis is related to statistical testing. The term was coined in 1935.
Clearly, newton did science before the null.
In its simplest form the Null is this: its a statement that there is no relationship (statistical relationship) between two variables. But clearly, newton was doing science when he formulated his laws, and Einstein was doing science in 1905.
The null is not the basis of understanding or investigation or interpretation. The null is a TOOL used to check the results of statistical tests. Do not mistake a step in the entire process of coming to understanding as the foundation of understanding.
When newton formulated that F=MA, he did not set out by asserting a null and then disproving it.
Quite the opposite. He set out by postulating a relationship.