'Correcting' Trenberth et al.

(See the note below before taking this post seriously – Anthony)

Guest essay by Steven Wilde

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Here we see the classic energy budget analysis supporting the hypothesis that the surface of the Earth is warmer than the S-B equation would predict due to 324 Wm2 of ‘Back Radiation’ from the atmosphere to the surface.

It is proposed that it is Back Radiation that lifts the surface temperature from 255K, as predicted by S-B, to the 288K actually observed because the 324 Back Radiation exceeds the surface radiation to the air of 222 Wm2 ( 390 Wm2 less 168 Wm2) by 102 Wm2. It is suggested that there is a net radiative flow from atmosphere to surface of 102 Wm2.

I now discuss an alternative possibility.

The portions I wish to focus on are:

i) 390 Wm2 Surface Radiation to atmosphere

ii) 78 Wm2 Evapo-transpiration surface to atmosphere

iii) 24 Thermals surface to atmosphere

iv) 324 Back Radiation atmosphere to surface

The budget needs to be amended as follows:

The 78 Wm2 needs to be corrected to zero because the moist adiabatic lapse rate during ascent is less than the dry lapse rate on adiabatic descent which ensures that after the first convective cycle there is as much energy back at the surface as before Evapo-transpiration began.

The 24 Wm2 for thermals needs to be corrected to zero because dry air that rises in thermals then warms back up to the original temperature on descent.

Therefore neither ii) nor iii) should be included in the radiative budget at all. They involve purely non radiative means of energy transfer and have no place in the radiative budget since, being net zero, they do not cool the surface. AGW theory and the Trenberth diagram incorrectly include them as a net surface cooling influence.

Furthermore, they cannot reduce Earth’s surface temperature below 255K because both conduction and convection are slower methods of energy transmission than radiation. To reduce the surface temperature below 255K they would have to work faster than radiation which is obviously not so.

They can only raise a surface temperature above the S-B expectation and for Earth that is 33K.

Once the first convective overturning cycle has been completed neither Thermals nor Evapo-transpiration can have any additional warming effect at the surface provided mass, gravity and insolation remain constant.

As regards iv) the correct figure for the radiative flux from atmosphere to surface should be 222 Wm2 because items ii) and iii) should not have been included.

That also leaves the surface to atmosphere radiative flux at 222 Wm2 which taken with the 168 Wm2 absorbed directly by the surface comes to the 390 Wm2 required for radiation from the surface.

The rest of the energy budget diagram appears to be correct.

So, how to decide whether my interpretation is accurate?

I think it is generally accepted that the lapse rate slope marks the points in the atmosphere where there is energy balance within molecules that are at the correct height for their temperature.

Since the lapse rate slope intersects with the surface it follows that DWIR equals UWIR for a zero net radiative balance if a molecule at the surface is at the correct temperature for its height. If it is not at the correct surface temperature it will simply move towards the correct height by virtue of density variations in the horizontal plane (convection).

Thus, 222 UWIR at the surface should equal 222 DWIR at the surface AND 222 plus 168 should add up to 390 and, of course, it does.

AGW theory erroneously assumes that Thermals and Evapo-transpiration have a net cooling effect on the surface and so they have to uplift the radiative exchange at the surface from 222 Wm2 to 324 Wm2 and additionally they assume that the extra 102 Wm2 is attributable to a net radiative flux towards the surface from the atmosphere.

The truth is that there is no net flow of radiation in any direction at the surface once the air at the surface is at its correct temperature for its height, which is 288K and not 255K. The lapse rate intersecting at the surface tells us that there can be no net radiative flux at the surface when surface temperature is at 288K.

A rise in surface temperature above the S-B prediction is inevitable for an atmosphere capable of conducting and convection because those two processes introduce a delay in the transmission of radiative energy through the system. Conduction and convection are a function of mass held within a gravity field.

Energy being used to hold up the weight of an atmosphere via conduction and convection is no longer available for radiation to space since energy cannot be in two places at once.

The greenhouse effect is therefore a product of atmospheric mass rather than radiative characteristics of constituent molecules as is clearly seen when the Trenberth diagram is corrected and the lapse rate considered.

Since one can never have more than 390 Wm2 at the surface without increasing conduction and convection via changes in mass, gravity or insolation a change in the quantity of GHGs cannot make any difference. All they can do is redistribute energy within the atmosphere.

There is a climate effect from the air circulation changes but, due to the tiny proportion of Earth’s atmospheric mass comprised of GHGs, too small to measure compared to natural variability.

What Happens When Radiative Gases Increase Or Decrease?

Applying the above correction to the Trenberth figures we can now see that 222 Wm2 radiation from the surface to the atmosphere is simply balanced by 222 Wm2 radiation from the atmosphere to the surface. That is the energy being constantly expended by the surface via conduction and convection to keep the weight of the atmosphere off the surface. We must ignore it for the purpose of energy transmission to space since the same energy cannot be in two places at once.

We then have 168 Wm2 left over at the surface which represents energy absorbed by the surface after 30 Wm2 has been reflected from the surface , 77 Wm2 has been reflected by the atmosphere and 67 Wm2 has been absorbed by the atmosphere before it reaches the surface.

That 168 Wm2 is then transferred to the atmosphere by conduction and convection leaving a total of 235 Wm2 in the atmosphere (168 plus 67).

It is that 235 Wm2 that must escape to space if radiative balance is to be maintained.

Now, remember that the lapse rate slope represents the positions in the atmosphere where molecules are at their correct temperature for their height.

At any given moment convection arranges that half the mass of the atmosphere is too warm for its height and half the mass is too cold for its height.

The reason for that is that the convective process runs out of energy to lift the atmosphere any higher against gravity when the two halves equalise.

It must follow that at any given time half of the GHGs must be too warm for their height and the other half too cold for their height.

That results in density differentials that cause the warm molecules to rise and the cold molecules to fall.

If a GHG molecule is too warm for its height then DWIR back to the surface dominates but the molecule rises away from the surface and cools until DWIR again equals UWIR.

If a GHG molecule is too cold for its height then UWIR to space dominates but the molecule then falls until DWIR again equals UWIR.

The net effect is that any potential for GHGs to warm or cool the surface is negated by the height changes relative to the slope of the adiabatic lapse rate.

Let’s now look at how that outgoing 235 Wm2 is dealt with if radiative gas concentrations change.

It is recognised that radiative gases tend to reduce the size of the Atmospheric Window (40 Wm2) so we will assume a reduction from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2 by way of example.

If that happens then DWIR for molecules that are too warm for their height will increase but the subsequent rise in height will cause the molecule to rise above its correct position along the lapse rate slope with UWIR to space increasing at the expense of DWIR back to the surface and rising will only stop when DWIR again equals UWIR.

Since UWIR to space increases to compensate for the shrinking of the atmospheric window (from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2) the figure for radiative emission from the atmosphere will increase from 165 to 170 which keeps the system in balance with 235 Wm2 still outgoing.

If the atmosphere had no radiative capability at all then radiative emission from the atmosphere would be zero but the Atmospheric Window would release 235 Wm2 from the surface.

If the atmosphere were 100% radiative then the Atmospheric Window from the surface would be zero and the atmosphere would radiate the entire 235 Wm2.

==============================================================

Note: I’m glad to see a number of people pointing out how flawed the argument is. Every once in awhile we need to take a look at the ‘Slayer’ mentality of thinking about radiative balance, just to keep sharp on the topic. At first I thought this should go straight into the hopper, and then I thought it might make some good target practice, so I published it without any caveat.

Readers did not disappoint.

Now you can watch the fun as they react over at PSI.  – Anthony

P.S. Readers might also enjoy my experiment on debunking the PSI light bulb experiment, and note the reactions in comments, entirely opposite to this one. New WUWT-TV segment: Slaying the ‘slayers’ with Watts

Update: Let me add that the author assuredly should have included a link to the underlying document, Earth’s Global Energy Budget by Kiehl and Trenberth …

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Trick
April 10, 2014 12:40 pm

Frank 11:49am: “You will find hundreds of graphs showing that atmospheric gases do not absorb like a blackbody.”
Correct; the graphs show real bodies reflect some of the incident photonic energy unlike a theoretical black body which doesn’t reflect at all. Planck function posted above 4/9 12:57pm is never 0.0, so radiation is emitted by all bodies regardless of temperature, although to varying degrees at different frequencies.
The part of the incident photonic energy not reflected is absorbed/emitted in a hemisphere of directions is occurring in nature by Planck function at all frequencies all the time at all equilibrium temperatures for solid/liquid/gas – no hedging here “all” means ALL – no exceptions, the integral of which across the spectrum is the irradiance.

Frank
April 10, 2014 12:46 pm

Steve wrote: “Of course the net change in GPE is zero but only after the first convective cycle completes. During the first cycle the net change is most certainly not zero. It is only after the first convective cycle completes that the energy exchange at the surface settles to net zero. But forever after you still have 102 Wm2 of energy stuck at the surface holding the weight of the atmosphere off the ground and failing to escape to space.”
Think of convection like a Ferris wheel with every passenger weighing the same. Lifting the passengers on one side doesn’t require work because the descending passengers on the other side are mechanically linked to each other. Convective cycles don’t occur in steps. Ascending air doesn’t leave a vacuum behind; descending air fills its spot immediately. It’s a continuous flow, not a discrete steps. The PE of individual parcels of air and the PE of individual passengers on a Ferris Wheel change, but no energy is consumed because the net change in PE is zero. In both cases, power is needed only to overcome friction.
A better analog: Fill a bath tub with water and place pot or bucket at the bottom of the tub full of water. It is easy to lift the pot as long as it remains totally under water. You are lifting only the weight of the pot because water is flowing underneath the pot as you lift. As the pot emerges from the water, it feels heavier and heavier because some of the water you are lifting is no longer being replaced from underneath by an equal weight of water. Now consider the empty bath tube and lifting a bucket of air. There is 14.6 psi of atmosphere pressing down on that bucket, but you never notice it because 14.6 psi of air flows underneath and to replace it. Needless to say, I’m talking about buoyancy. In water, lifting a plastic bucket of water takes no energy except to overcome friction (the plastic bucket being about as dense as water). The same is true for lifting air in air.
The work done when the gas expands or contracts or water vapor condenses complicates the analysis, but potential temperature and moist potential temperature keep track of the internal energy more clearly than temperature alone.
By definition, when water evaporates, it has left the surface and become part of the atmosphere. Collisions between gas molecules and surface molecules also conduct heat between the surface and the atmosphere. Wind sheer turbulence transports simple and latent heat within the planetary boundary layer (roughly the lowest kilometer of the atmosphere) until organized convection carries that warm air and water vapor high enough to condense. Turbulence prevents the energy from being TRAPPED at the interface between the surface and the atmosphere.

Trick
April 10, 2014 12:56 pm

Stephen 12:26pm: “I know it doesn’t return ENERGY to the surface. It does return HEAT to the surface..”
Oh my. Stephen – can’t help but post a hint. You will want to rephrase this if you can see the issue. If not, then don’t bother.

Editor
April 10, 2014 1:13 pm

The rise higher cancels the warming by converting KE to PE.

So then it is a higher level of the atmosphere that becomes warmer than it otherwise would have been, and if the warmed gases are not themselves emissive they will transfer their heat by conduction to parts of the atmosphere that are.

April 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Willis Eschenbach says
“In short, Anthony just published the piece, and did nothing else. He did nothing blameworthy at all … and in any case, blaming the publisher when a newly launched scientific post goes hard aground on a reef of ugly facts is merely an attempt to divert attention from the wreck.”
I don’t agree with that at all. If Anthony had said I’ll feature your article but be warned I myself will call it a load of ld B0^&ocks for starters and I’m sure other replies will be less forgiving; then if Stephen still went ahead well he couldn’t complain.
Anyway Willis are you and Roy Spencer talking again and that was only one persons criticism and you were seemingly mortally wounded.
No it could have been handled far better . This thread is now about two issues the scientific argument and the dreadful behaviour on many now trying to look like scientist-well 3% of scientist.
Sorry Anthony and Willis but I found this disturbingly cruel

Curt
April 10, 2014 1:51 pm

Stephen: You keep referring to the up-and-down cycle of parts of the atmosphere, with or without evaporation/condensation, as being an adiabatic process, even though multiple people have pointed out to you that this is not remotely true. To recap, the radiatively active gases in the atmosphere transfer energy to space, and do so more effectively at higher altitudes. This means that the cycle, by definition, is not adiabatic.
The implication is that less energy is returned to the surface in the downward/condensation part of the cycle than is transferred to the atmosphere in the upward/evaporation part of the cycle, so there is a net upward transfer of energy.

SkepticGoneWild
April 10, 2014 2:17 pm

MikeB,
It’s hard to take someone seriously who believes in “energy creation”. But by all means, please provide reference to the experiment whereby a “30,000 watt heat source can ‘create energy ‘ to generate 1,824,900 watts”. I hope that device is patented, because the owner will be wealthy beyond all measure since he will hold the key to solving the world’s energy crisis..
I don’t recognize Science of Doom as a reference source for physics.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 2:19 pm

SkepticGoneWild says:

This law has not changed. It’s the same law I learned in my physics classes at university.

Well, the problem is that you didn’t learn it very well.

If you need a definition of heat, please refer to any university level physics text.

The point is that “heat” is the MACROSCOPIC, NET flow of energy due to a temperature difference. “Back radiation” is not heat. The combination of the “forward” and “back radiation” is what heat is. Hence, the statement that the heat flow is from the warmer to the colder means that the forward radiation is larger than the back radiation and that the net of the two is heat.

Backradiation will have no effect. That energy has already been accounted for. Reflected energy will not and cannot cause a body to increase in temperature. That would be a violation of the First Law as well.

Nonsense…The only way that back radiation can have no effect is by violating the First Law. If we accept the First Law, then all flows of energy must be accounted for.

As far as your last statement is concerned, arguments from popularity don’t cut it in the field of science.

Only people who are both arrogant and foolish would assume that he, having had maybe one course in physics, knows the Second Law better than those of us who have gotten PhD’s in physics and written papers in the most prestigious physics journals in the world in the field of statistical physics, which is the underlying basis of thermodynamics.

This new version of the Second Law seems to be popular in the field of climatology.

It is popular in all fields of science that are based on the correct understand of physics, rather than the blatant distortion of physics.

If scientists want to create an alternate version of the Second Law, there is a well established protocol known as the scientific method, whereby the new proposed law could be validated.

There is no alternate version. There are just people who don’t even understand what the term “thermodynamics” means. Try looking up the term “thermodynamic limit”. Thermodynamics is a theory that describes macroscopic phenomena. For God’s sake, the formulation of the Second Law came many decades before we even knew about microscopic things like electrons and photons. If you actually understood the modern (by which I mean the last century or so) understanding of thermodynamics in terms of the underlying statistical mechanics, you would realize how utterly ridiculous it is to claim that there is no “back-radation” or that such radiation can magically be discounted! Since you don’t have any such understanding, you are blissfully ignorant of the ridiculousness of your assertions.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 2:27 pm

Stephen Wilde says:

“You don’t even understand it well enough to pass a first year physics course.”
Please specify the piece of first year physics that invalidates what I said.

Your statement was:

But forever after you still have 102 Wm2 of energy stuck at the surface holding the weight of the atmosphere off the ground and failing to escape to space.

This implies that energy must be input to hold the atmosphere up. In fact, as you would learn in a first-semester physics course, no work is done if there is no displacement. It does not take energy to NOT move something. [This may seem counter intuitive on a physiological level, e.g., if you imagine holding a bar bell above your head, but that is merely because our muscles do move (stretch and contract) in such a situation and hence we expend energy. If you put the bar bell on a table, it does not take any work by the table to hold the bar bell up.]

April 10, 2014 2:49 pm

Frank said:
“Turbulence prevents the energy from being TRAPPED at the interface between the surface and the atmosphere.”
and Curt said:
“The implication is that less energy is returned to the surface in the downward/condensation part of the cycle than is transferred to the atmosphere in the upward/evaporation part of the cycle, so there is a net upward transfer of energy.”
Which are both expressions of the same objection, namely that a net upward flow somehow prevents the adiabatic nature of the convective exchange.
It is not denied by me that there is a net upward flow nor do I say that a static parcel of energy is in some way trapped.
There is still 102 Wm2 leaving the surface in adiabatic uplift and 102 Wm2 returning to the surface in adiabatic descent.
It may be comprised of ever changing parcels of energy as energy flows through and it may be incorporated within the general upward flow but it is still there and it raises surface temperature from 255K to 288K.

April 10, 2014 3:04 pm

Perhaps I should now address the conduct of this thread.
Whilst Anthony was within his rights I did place trust in his judgment and sense of fair play. Others can judge whether or not I was unwise.
There clearly has been an attempt to humiliate me but I do not feel humiliated because no one has yet addressed the basic point.
How does one get 102 Wm2 of DWIR from a non-radiative block of PE distributed through the atmosphere ?
If someone now tells me how that can be done then I am still not humiliated because thus far no one else here appears to know the answer.
If there were a simple answer then I could have been told at the outset or even by Anthony when he reviewed my submission.
I am currently inclined to the view that the attempt at humiliation is due to the lack of an answer.
Apart from that I have proposed a perfectly clear and reasonable alternative to the K & T diagram namely:
i) The radiative exchange between surface and atmosphere is in balance at 222 Wm2.
ii) The adiabatic exchange between surface and atmosphere is in balance at 102 Wm2.
iii) Energy absorbed by surface and atmosphere from space ( 67 + 168) is in balance with energy emitted by surface and atmosphere to space (165 + 30 + 40) which is 235 in each case.
For the third time I ask, what is wrong with that ?
Is the reason for the abuse that such a scenario provides no net radiative flux to the surface but instead replaces it with the adiabatic return of KE to the surface so that atmospheric mass becomes the sole arbiter of the surface temperature enhancement ?
If that were so then the entire warmist and lukewarmist edifice would be demolished because GHGs are such a minute portion of atmospheric mass.
So, guys, bite the bullet and tell me how one gets DWIR of 102 Wm2 from gravitational potential energy which does not register on thermometers and does not radiate.
If you want me to go away then there is your chance.

MikeB
April 10, 2014 3:10 pm

SkepticGoneWild says:
April 10, 2014 at 2:17 pm
I am really at a loss on how to deal with people with closed minds. If you by chance found some mistake in the referenced article then that would be impressive but the appeal to ignorance that you make “ I don’t accept Science of Doom” but am unable to find anything wrong with it is beyond belief. There really is no hope for you and your kind. However, if you don’t accept Science of Doom out of your own predudice or stupidity then here is another, from WattsUpWithThat, which makes the same point and shows how ‘energy is apparently created’
ttp://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/17/the-steel-greenhouse/
I bet you won’t read that one either (certainly won’t understand it). Or don’t you accept WattsUpWithThat?

MikeB
April 10, 2014 3:11 pm
April 10, 2014 3:14 pm

joeldshore said
“This implies that energy must be input to hold the atmosphere up. In fact, as you would learn in a first-semester physics course, no work is done if there is no displacement. It does not take energy to NOT move something”
That is fine if there is no internal movement within the mass being held up.
The difference for gases held in a gravity field above an unevenly heated surface is that you constantly get density differentials in the horizontal plane.
Those density differentials lead to weight differences so that parcels rise and fall relative to one another.
That internal movement does require work and it is true that the amount of work going up is the same as the amount of work going down but of opposite sign so it nets out to zero BUT for the process to be on going you need a fund of energy devoted to the process because you have to constantly resupply the work done on the ascent from work done on the descent.
Energy locked into that cycle cannot be taken for radiation to space or you break the chain of energy flow and the atmosphere falls to the ground.

david(swuk)
April 10, 2014 3:46 pm

Curt says:
April 10, 2014 at 1:51 pm
“……..The implication is that less energy is returned to the surface in the downward/condensation part of the cycle than is transferred to the atmosphere in the upward/evaporation part of the cycle, so there is a net upward transfer of energy.”
Obviously – might say The Plumber – but – HEAT is the word and you can only have it ONCE!
(ask your accountant) (tootsies or top o` the shop).
And so, depending on where that 198Watts of IT might land, up goes a parcel of 102W (from whatever average base) as warm air and vapour which then raises the temperature of the ~40oC air somewhere above (1m3 25oC say divided by maybe 1000m3 -40oC = abaht, er, next to-er, nuffink!) and so makes it sing and dance `The Light Fantastic`NOT but instead suffer condensation and gravity which combine to deluge the donor Earth beneath with further COOLING precipitation and not fanciful NON-heat and more than a basin full of air a lot colder than that which left and which will continue to do so while the Sun doth shine (at the prescribed intensity).
So, no DWIR is an overall no-no even if a go-go in Polar Regions perhaps due to much of it being warmer up there than dah n `ere. OK.
And no double-billing either the slices of UV/SIR syphoned off by those active gases on its way dahn and which, at 67W, if you say (but I wouldn`t) pings off at mebbe 20W up & dahn with the other 27 helping keep the daytime sky warmer than the night (or is it pseudo twilight?) but eventually radiating back to Space along with best part of the thermals and 66 (your figure 390-324 again sir) radiated by the surface plus that which is said to be reflected (without any loss)…………….
…………..and all of which comes out to abaht a £rand squire (less, of course, 100% for prompt payment, as accords with much of the logic written above).

gbaikie
April 10, 2014 3:56 pm

– Stephen Wilde says:
April 10, 2014 at 3:04 pm
Perhaps I should now address the conduct of this thread.
Whilst Anthony was within his rights I did place trust in his judgment and sense of fair play. Others can judge whether or not I was unwise.
There clearly has been an attempt to humiliate me but I do not feel humiliated because no one has yet addressed the basic point.
How does one get 102 Wm2 of DWIR from a non-radiative block of PE distributed through the atmosphere ?
If someone now tells me how that can be done then I am still not humiliated because thus far no one else here appears to know the answer.-
Well, an answer could be the water droplets of a cloud radiate IR to the surface. So droplets get bigger from condensation, and warm from the condensation, and radiate heat to surface.
So in the way the latent heat is being radiated..
But such warmed droplets will also warm air around them [air must cool for such condensation to occur] and if warmed is warmed, the air it rises as packet of air.
So that I believe is a possible answer.
But I would say clouds are a volume and in terms quantity and where condensation occur, one should more condensation in the cloud vs on edge of cloud, thereby a percentage of the radiant warmth will not escape the cloud. And generally speaking it’s complicated.
But one could point to occurrence of clouds and warmer nights and assume/guess this related to a net amount of radiant energy from clouds.

SkepticGoneWild
April 10, 2014 4:09 pm

MikeB,
Words are cheap. There are many stupid thought experiments out there.. Show me the experiment for your “energy creation”. The scientific method is what separates the wheat from the chaff. Otherwise you are blowing hot air.

Eric Barnes
April 10, 2014 5:17 pm

“Stephen Wilde says:
April 10, 2014 at 3:04 pm
How does one get 102 Wm2 of DWIR from a non-radiative block of PE distributed through the atmosphere ?”
I’m with you Stephen. Humiliation is something for the vain to worry about. IMO, there hasn’t been an adequate response to your question.

gbaikie
April 10, 2014 5:41 pm

As said before, I don’t think Earth’s energy budget tells one why Earth is warm.
Or 100 or 1000 watts in and 100 or 1000 watts out does not tell your how warm it is.
So one starts with two factors, total amount 1360 square meter [divided by 4] and
how much is reflected.
And if how much is reflected is known, one knows how much energy there is left
to be radiates as non reflected light.
So if we imagine something like earth which doesn’t reflect light, and it get 1360 watts, we
know it radiates 1360 divided by 4. 340 watts per square meter.
And a ideal blackbody which radiates 340 watts is the same as saying it’s 5 C.
And a whiter body which radiate 340 watts is warmer than 5 C.
As white body reflect more energy, and hence must get higher amount input in order
to radiate the same amount energy as blackbody.
Or a blackbody radiates more energy at 5 C than a whiter body would at 5 C.
So the Trenberth et al model indicates earth is reflecting 107 watts per square meter.
So if you had a planet will a surface which was not similar to ideal blackbody and reflected 107 watts per square, it radiates 340 -107 watts per square meter or 233 watts. And it could be about 5 C.
Since it’s not a blackbody and doesn’t radiate at 1.
So absorbs less energy and it radiates less energy. But if such a white body radiated like blackbody is would be much cooler than 5 C.
So if you put a mirrored sphere in space and at Earth distance from sun.
And say it reflects 99.9 % of sunlight, how warm is it?
So side facing sunlight reflects 99.9 % of sunlight.
So using manner of earth heat budget, if sunlight is 1360 watts per square meter, 1358.64 watts per square meter of it is reflected, it leaves 1.26 watts absorbed.
Divide it by 4 gives .34 watts per square meter radiating from it.
If reflective sphere radiated as blackbody, .34 watts per square meter would be a very cold object.
But it doesn’t radiate as ideal blackbody.
And one would need more details before one would try to determine how warm it actually was.
Now if you had a planet with reflective surface [like a mirror] and it had an earth like atmosphere,
could a planet be 99.9 % reflective?
It’s does not seem possible because this much atmosphere is not very transparent.
But for such world one have energy budget of about 349 watts square meter reflected and
1 watt absorbed and emitted back in space, and so assuming this was the determined values, How could you determine how warm would such a planet would be?

Curt
April 10, 2014 6:26 pm

David: You think you’re being clever and colorful, but you’re really just being incoherent. I don’t think you have the capability to discuss these matters in careful and precise terms. Underneath the bluster, you aren’t even addressing my arguments.
BTW, I know plenty of very bright British scientists and engineers who can let loose linguistically in the pub at night, but discuss technical subjects very coherently when it is required. You’re obviously not one of them.

Dr. Strangelove
April 10, 2014 6:28 pm

Stephen
“The warmed air immediately becomes warmer than the surroundings and rises higher thereby creating more PE.”
That is correct. What you missed is the source of that energy is sensible heat, not latent heat. Sensible heat is converted to increase in potential energy. You don’t see that in Trenberth’s diagram precisely because as you pointed out it should not be included. And Trenberth did not include it in the diagram, What you see in the diagram is latent heat. This should be included because it becomes sensible heat when water vapor condenses in high altitude.

SkepticGoneWild
April 10, 2014 6:28 pm

Joel,
So now it’s arguments from authority? “Us” who have PhD’s? “Arrogance”? OMG. You are the one who brought up the subject of your “PhD” and publishing papers. You then to proceeded to call me “arrogant”, “foolish”, “ridiculous” and “ignorant. Please discuss the topic at hand without resorting to ad hominem trash talk. I am a professional civil engineer. I’ve had multiple courses in physics, including a specific course in thermodynamics. But that is besides the point. The scientific method does not concerns itself with letters behind one’s name or published papers.
The Second Law mentions nothing about “net”.
This is what happens when people take liberties with the established laws of thermodynamics. Remember the Willis post last year on the R.W. Wood experiment, and the steel shells? Willis believes your version of the Second Law, and followed it to its logical conclusion when he stated:
“Radiative energy doesn’t care where it is coming from or going go, or what the temperature is on either end. If I light a candle on the earth during the day, the sun ends up warmer than it would be if I didn’t light the candle. Of course the reverse is true as well, the candle ends up warmer than if there were no sun. Since NET heat flow is from the sun to the candle, no thermodynamic laws are broken … but that doesn’t mean that the light from the candle is not absorbed by the sun. It is definitely absorbed, and the sun ends up warmer because of that radiation.”
Tim Folkerts in the same post agreed, as did many others. Would you agree as well? So logically not only is CO2 causing the earth to warm, it is causing the sun to warm.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 7:46 pm

SkepticGoneWild:
If you refuse to entertain the notion that other people in the world who has studied stuff in WAY more detail than you ever have might actually have a better understanding of it than you do, then you will remain in your state of ignorance. That’s your choice to make.
I won’t choose to say anything too prejudicial about engineers, whom I do teach, and whose abilities I have great respect for in some areas. But, frankly, you guys generally don’t learn physics in all that much depth. And, I’ll just say that if you’d agree to not pretend you understand more about the 2nd law of thermodynamics and the underpinnings of it from statistical physics, I’ll agree to not pretend that I understand more than you about designing bridges…And believe me, you probably don’t want me designing bridges.

The Second Law mentions nothing about “net”.

The Second Law talks about “heat”. Since you don’t seem to know what that word means, you misinterpret what it says.

Willis believes your version of the Second Law, and followed it to its logical conclusion when he stated: …
Tim Folkerts in the same post agreed, as did many others.

Yes.

So logically not only is CO2 causing the earth to warm, it is causing the sun to warm.

Actually, I don’t really see how this follows logically from what was said above. In the case of the candle, there is more emission of energy toward the sun when it is lit compared to when it is not. In the case of increased CO2, the Earth’s surface may be warmer…but as seen from space, it will still be emitting the same amount of energy as it was before (once radiative balance has been restored…In fact, if you consider the time period when CO2 is rising and the Earth has not yet come into radiative balance, it will actually be emitting LESS energy than before).

Curt
April 10, 2014 7:54 pm

Stephen: You say at 3:04pm:
“There clearly has been an attempt to humiliate me but I do not feel humiliated because no one has yet addressed the basic point. How does one get 102 Wm2 of DWIR from a non-radiative block of PE distributed through the atmosphere ?”
The question is so nonsensical that it is impossible to answer. Potential energy does not radiate, substances radiate.
And substances radiate as a function of their temperature and their emissivity at that temperature. Period. Earth’s atmosphere has radiatively active gases that do radiate significantly in all directions at their temperatures.
I’m afraid that your question shows that you don’t remotely have the conceptual background even to begin to discuss these issues intelligently.
At 3:14pm, you say, “Energy locked into that cycle cannot be taken for radiation to space or you break the chain of energy flow and the atmosphere falls to the ground.”
When I read this, my first thought was that someone else posting under your name said that to discredit you. I actually still hope that is true, because it is beyond ludicrous. (Hint: the atmosphere has already fallen to the ground.)

gbaikie
April 10, 2014 8:08 pm

” Would you agree as well? So logically not only is CO2 causing the earth to warm, it is causing the sun to warm.”
If your Sun’s twin were it at Earth orbital distance, it would not warm the Sun.
But it would affect the weather on Jupiter’s Moons- having slighter larger weather effect than any CO2 levels have ever had on Earth’s weather.

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