'Correcting' Trenberth et al.

(See the note below before taking this post seriously – Anthony)

Guest essay by Steven Wilde

clip_image002

Here we see the classic energy budget analysis supporting the hypothesis that the surface of the Earth is warmer than the S-B equation would predict due to 324 Wm2 of ‘Back Radiation’ from the atmosphere to the surface.

It is proposed that it is Back Radiation that lifts the surface temperature from 255K, as predicted by S-B, to the 288K actually observed because the 324 Back Radiation exceeds the surface radiation to the air of 222 Wm2 ( 390 Wm2 less 168 Wm2) by 102 Wm2. It is suggested that there is a net radiative flow from atmosphere to surface of 102 Wm2.

I now discuss an alternative possibility.

The portions I wish to focus on are:

i) 390 Wm2 Surface Radiation to atmosphere

ii) 78 Wm2 Evapo-transpiration surface to atmosphere

iii) 24 Thermals surface to atmosphere

iv) 324 Back Radiation atmosphere to surface

The budget needs to be amended as follows:

The 78 Wm2 needs to be corrected to zero because the moist adiabatic lapse rate during ascent is less than the dry lapse rate on adiabatic descent which ensures that after the first convective cycle there is as much energy back at the surface as before Evapo-transpiration began.

The 24 Wm2 for thermals needs to be corrected to zero because dry air that rises in thermals then warms back up to the original temperature on descent.

Therefore neither ii) nor iii) should be included in the radiative budget at all. They involve purely non radiative means of energy transfer and have no place in the radiative budget since, being net zero, they do not cool the surface. AGW theory and the Trenberth diagram incorrectly include them as a net surface cooling influence.

Furthermore, they cannot reduce Earth’s surface temperature below 255K because both conduction and convection are slower methods of energy transmission than radiation. To reduce the surface temperature below 255K they would have to work faster than radiation which is obviously not so.

They can only raise a surface temperature above the S-B expectation and for Earth that is 33K.

Once the first convective overturning cycle has been completed neither Thermals nor Evapo-transpiration can have any additional warming effect at the surface provided mass, gravity and insolation remain constant.

As regards iv) the correct figure for the radiative flux from atmosphere to surface should be 222 Wm2 because items ii) and iii) should not have been included.

That also leaves the surface to atmosphere radiative flux at 222 Wm2 which taken with the 168 Wm2 absorbed directly by the surface comes to the 390 Wm2 required for radiation from the surface.

The rest of the energy budget diagram appears to be correct.

So, how to decide whether my interpretation is accurate?

I think it is generally accepted that the lapse rate slope marks the points in the atmosphere where there is energy balance within molecules that are at the correct height for their temperature.

Since the lapse rate slope intersects with the surface it follows that DWIR equals UWIR for a zero net radiative balance if a molecule at the surface is at the correct temperature for its height. If it is not at the correct surface temperature it will simply move towards the correct height by virtue of density variations in the horizontal plane (convection).

Thus, 222 UWIR at the surface should equal 222 DWIR at the surface AND 222 plus 168 should add up to 390 and, of course, it does.

AGW theory erroneously assumes that Thermals and Evapo-transpiration have a net cooling effect on the surface and so they have to uplift the radiative exchange at the surface from 222 Wm2 to 324 Wm2 and additionally they assume that the extra 102 Wm2 is attributable to a net radiative flux towards the surface from the atmosphere.

The truth is that there is no net flow of radiation in any direction at the surface once the air at the surface is at its correct temperature for its height, which is 288K and not 255K. The lapse rate intersecting at the surface tells us that there can be no net radiative flux at the surface when surface temperature is at 288K.

A rise in surface temperature above the S-B prediction is inevitable for an atmosphere capable of conducting and convection because those two processes introduce a delay in the transmission of radiative energy through the system. Conduction and convection are a function of mass held within a gravity field.

Energy being used to hold up the weight of an atmosphere via conduction and convection is no longer available for radiation to space since energy cannot be in two places at once.

The greenhouse effect is therefore a product of atmospheric mass rather than radiative characteristics of constituent molecules as is clearly seen when the Trenberth diagram is corrected and the lapse rate considered.

Since one can never have more than 390 Wm2 at the surface without increasing conduction and convection via changes in mass, gravity or insolation a change in the quantity of GHGs cannot make any difference. All they can do is redistribute energy within the atmosphere.

There is a climate effect from the air circulation changes but, due to the tiny proportion of Earth’s atmospheric mass comprised of GHGs, too small to measure compared to natural variability.

What Happens When Radiative Gases Increase Or Decrease?

Applying the above correction to the Trenberth figures we can now see that 222 Wm2 radiation from the surface to the atmosphere is simply balanced by 222 Wm2 radiation from the atmosphere to the surface. That is the energy being constantly expended by the surface via conduction and convection to keep the weight of the atmosphere off the surface. We must ignore it for the purpose of energy transmission to space since the same energy cannot be in two places at once.

We then have 168 Wm2 left over at the surface which represents energy absorbed by the surface after 30 Wm2 has been reflected from the surface , 77 Wm2 has been reflected by the atmosphere and 67 Wm2 has been absorbed by the atmosphere before it reaches the surface.

That 168 Wm2 is then transferred to the atmosphere by conduction and convection leaving a total of 235 Wm2 in the atmosphere (168 plus 67).

It is that 235 Wm2 that must escape to space if radiative balance is to be maintained.

Now, remember that the lapse rate slope represents the positions in the atmosphere where molecules are at their correct temperature for their height.

At any given moment convection arranges that half the mass of the atmosphere is too warm for its height and half the mass is too cold for its height.

The reason for that is that the convective process runs out of energy to lift the atmosphere any higher against gravity when the two halves equalise.

It must follow that at any given time half of the GHGs must be too warm for their height and the other half too cold for their height.

That results in density differentials that cause the warm molecules to rise and the cold molecules to fall.

If a GHG molecule is too warm for its height then DWIR back to the surface dominates but the molecule rises away from the surface and cools until DWIR again equals UWIR.

If a GHG molecule is too cold for its height then UWIR to space dominates but the molecule then falls until DWIR again equals UWIR.

The net effect is that any potential for GHGs to warm or cool the surface is negated by the height changes relative to the slope of the adiabatic lapse rate.

Let’s now look at how that outgoing 235 Wm2 is dealt with if radiative gas concentrations change.

It is recognised that radiative gases tend to reduce the size of the Atmospheric Window (40 Wm2) so we will assume a reduction from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2 by way of example.

If that happens then DWIR for molecules that are too warm for their height will increase but the subsequent rise in height will cause the molecule to rise above its correct position along the lapse rate slope with UWIR to space increasing at the expense of DWIR back to the surface and rising will only stop when DWIR again equals UWIR.

Since UWIR to space increases to compensate for the shrinking of the atmospheric window (from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2) the figure for radiative emission from the atmosphere will increase from 165 to 170 which keeps the system in balance with 235 Wm2 still outgoing.

If the atmosphere had no radiative capability at all then radiative emission from the atmosphere would be zero but the Atmospheric Window would release 235 Wm2 from the surface.

If the atmosphere were 100% radiative then the Atmospheric Window from the surface would be zero and the atmosphere would radiate the entire 235 Wm2.

==============================================================

Note: I’m glad to see a number of people pointing out how flawed the argument is. Every once in awhile we need to take a look at the ‘Slayer’ mentality of thinking about radiative balance, just to keep sharp on the topic. At first I thought this should go straight into the hopper, and then I thought it might make some good target practice, so I published it without any caveat.

Readers did not disappoint.

Now you can watch the fun as they react over at PSI.  – Anthony

P.S. Readers might also enjoy my experiment on debunking the PSI light bulb experiment, and note the reactions in comments, entirely opposite to this one. New WUWT-TV segment: Slaying the ‘slayers’ with Watts

Update: Let me add that the author assuredly should have included a link to the underlying document, Earth’s Global Energy Budget by Kiehl and Trenberth …

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

417 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
April 9, 2014 7:03 pm

Steven Wilde
I don’t have time to read all the comments so I don’t know if my points here have already been raised.
Trenberth’s diagram is basically correct. Thermals and Evapo-transpiration are not included in the TOA energy balance nor in the calculation of the 33 K greenhouse effect. Note these two energy flows do not reach TOA. The energy at TOA is balanced at 342 W/m^2 without thermals and evapo-transpiration.
You said:
“Conduction and convection are a function of mass held within a gravity field.”
No. Conduction and convection are a function of temperature differential between surface and atmosphere. Air pressure is a function of atmospheric mass and gravitational field. But pressure alone does not determine the temperature of gases. In the ideal gas law, density is a function of pressure and temperature. This is the proper way of looking at cause and effect. Gas density changes is an effect of changes in pressure and temperature. Not the other way around. (This is the common mistake of Dragon Slayers)
You said:
“The greenhouse effect is therefore a product of atmospheric mass rather than radiative characteristics of constituent molecules…”
This is equivalent to the statement “temperature of gas is solely dependent on its pressure. As mentioned above, it is wrong. The ideal gas law has three variables: pressure, temperature and volume (density). Any one of them is a function of two variables, not just one. A gas at 1 bar pressure can have different temperatures corresponding to different densities at that pressure.

gbaikie
April 9, 2014 7:33 pm

-So whether or not a gas absorbs and emits thermal longwave depends on the kind of bonds it has between the molecules. O2, for example, hardly absorbs longwave. It only has one possible vibrational mode. This is the mode where the two atoms move closer and further from each other. It can’t twist, it’s symmetrical. And it can’t flex or scissor, because there’s only one bond. So the absorption bands are very narrow. And the same, of course, is true of N2 and H2 and every other diatomic gas. All of them only have one way to absorb thermal longwave radiation, so they don’t absorb much thermal IR, and that only within narrow bands.-
So like most gases [including CO2] N2 and H2 are transparent to visible light. And all gases interact with various parts of spectrum.
With using telescope to see the rest of universe in various spectrum, H20 is biggest problem.
And reduce the problem with H20 molecule, astronomers build telescopes at high and dry locations. But also having telescopes look thru less atmosphere reduces other atmospheric distortion unrelated to spectrum atmospheric gases can block. And if want to see X-ray and gamma, one get out of the atmosphere.
-Note that if the entire atmosphere were O2 and N2, there would be no greenhouse effect worth mentioning.-
According greenhouse theory. But seems even some strong believers will say Mars would warmer even one added O2 and N2 to Mars.
So take the opportunity to see if more believe this.
Mars has very thin atmosphere with a lot CO2 in it- may times more CO2 than Earth’s atmosphere.
One say this way if removed N2 and O2 from Earth, and left argon, than Earth would have thicker atmosphere than Mars. But if removed the argon, Earth would have less atmosphere than Mars.
Mars has 2.5 x 10^16 kg of largely CO2. So about 25 trillion tonnes of CO2.
So question is if no added, say 100 trillion tonnes of N2 and O2 to Mars, would it make Mars have a higher average temperature?
If add 4 times more atmosphere, Mars still is weak atmosphere. You still need pressure or spacesuit in order to breath. But question is does CO2 of Mars “work” better, if add a significant amount of “inert gases” or non-greenhouse gases.
And think it does, can explain why Mars which has lot of solar energy reaching surface.
600 divide by 4 is 150 watts per square meter vs Earth’s Trenberth et al of 168 watts per square meter, is so cold.

Stephen Wilde
April 9, 2014 11:34 pm

Lots of words overnight from many heavyweight contributors but I respectfully submit that the point is still not getting across so I’ll try once again to reduce it to the simplest possible form.
We all accept that 102 Wm2 leaves the surface in Thermals and Evapotranspiration.
K&T and the rest of you appear to think that it heats the atmosphere so that we get more DWIR to compensate and that is supposed to balance the energy budget. That is why the DWIR figure is increased by the same amount of 102 Wm2.
The trouble is that as that 102 Wm2 rises it converts to gravitational potential energy which is not heat and does not radiate and so you can’t send a corresponding amount of DWIR back down.
Latent heat of evaporation converts to extra gravitational potential energy the instant it is released on condensation since it immediately enhances uplift.
So, you cant have all that PE radiating down as DWIR. It cannot raise surface temperature whilst it is in PE form.
It appears that the energy budget is unbalanced and indeed it is but only until the descent phase of the first convective cycle completes.
At that point balance is restored because the KE returning to the surface on descent matches the KE leaving the surface on ascent.
Thermal balance is restored but at a higher surface temperature because you then have solar energy still coming in at the same rate as before AND you have the extra 102 Wm2 stuck at the surface providing the energy needed for continued uplift and descent.
The original radiative exchange is unaffected with solar shortwave in of 235 and longwave out of 235.
The simplest scenario is this:
i) The radiative exchange between surface and atmosphere is in balance at 222 Wm2.
ii) The adiabatic exchange between surface and atmosphere is in balance at 102 Wm2.
iii) Energy absorbed by surface and atmosphere from space ( 67 + 168) is in balance with energy emitted by surface and atmosphere to space (165 + 30 + 40) which is 235 in each case.
The effect of radiative capability is therefore only to redistribute energy so that 168 absorbed by the surface becomes 40 emitted by the surface and 67 absorbed by the atmosphere becomes 195 emitted by the atmosphere (165 + 30).
It all boils down to the simple facts that one cannot get DWIR from gravitational potential energy and the latent heat of evaporation goes straight to PE on release by condensation.
Once can argue that there is still radiative leakage to space, that the adiabatic exchange is imperfect etc. etc. but the system balances at equilibrium when newly arriving solar energy balances the radiative leakage and at that point the atmosphere reaches its ‘correct’ height for the energy flowing through it.
If people still don’t get I can do no more.

Frank
April 10, 2014 12:18 am

Steve Wilde wrote: The trouble is that as that 102 Wm2 rises it converts to gravitational potential energy which is not heat and does not radiate and so you can’t send a corresponding amount of DWIR back down.
Wrong. During convection, an equal amount of air is coming down and going up, so the net change in gravitational potential energy is ZERO. The 102 W/m2 is not converted to gravitational potential energy.

Stephen Wilde
April 10, 2014 1:05 am

Frank.
Of course the net change in GPE is zero but only after the first convective cycle completes. During the first cycle the net change is most certainly not zero.
It is only after the first convective cycle completes that the energy exchange at the surface settles to net zero.
But forever after you still have 102 Wm2 of energy stuck at the surface holding the weight of the atmosphere off the ground and failing to escape to space.
Which is why surface temperature rises from 255K to 288K.

April 10, 2014 2:11 am

Stephen
“It all boils down to the simple facts that one cannot get DWIR from gravitational potential energy and the latent heat of evaporation goes straight to PE on release by condensation.”
Sorry but wrong. Latent heat is not the cause of increase in potential energy (rising air mass). The cause is sensible heat. First, you need to increase the temperature of the air mass before its volume decreases (lower density) than surrounding air. This is Charles’s law in the ideal gas laws. The rising air is due to buoyant force or the density differential between warm air mass and surrounding cooler air.
At high altitude, the air mass cools and water vapor condenses releasing the latent heat. This becomes sensible heat because it warms the surrounding air. And when air temperature increases, you get more DWIR. So yes Trenberth got it right.

Stephen Wilde
April 10, 2014 2:32 am

Dr Strangelove said:
“This becomes sensible heat because it warms the surrounding air. And when air temperature increases, you get more DWIR”
The warmed air immediately becomes warmer than the surroundings and rises higher thereby creating more PE.
The bulk of that warmed air is comprised of non radiative gases such as O2 andN2 so you can’t send much of that heat anywhere via radiation. Nearly all of it goes straight to uplift of the bulk gases and creation of more PE.
To the extent that radiative gases, clouds or aerosols are present then you can have some leakage but that is already included in the 165 if going to space or the 222 to the ground if it goes downward.
There is no basis for increasing DWIR above 222 Wm2 to the ground. That figure already takes account of radiative effects from clouds, aerosols, radiative gases and the hydrological cycle.
There is certainly no basis for increasing DWIR to 324 as though zero PE were being created by the increased uplift.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 6:37 am

Stephen Wilde says:

But forever after you still have 102 Wm2 of energy stuck at the surface holding the weight of the atmosphere off the ground and failing to escape to space.

Not only do you not understand atmospheric physics as well as the scientists, like Trenberth, that you criticize. You don’t even understand it well enough to pass a first year physics course. This sentence is an illustration of that.

Mervyn
April 10, 2014 7:00 am

‘Back Radiation’? This IPCC term is a myth. The cooler air cannot add heat to the warmer ground. It is impossible.
Please remember, you cannot create more heat out of that which exists unless work is applied (First Law of Thermodynamics), and a cooler substance cannot pass its heat to a warmer substance (Second of Law of Thermodynamics). The Second Law is an absolute law.
This is basic laws of physics.
‘Back Radiation’ is not a law, it is not a valid theory, and it is not even a valid hypothesis. It is simply an IPCC supposition to justify its positive water vapour feedback mechanism.

Editor
April 10, 2014 8:46 am

Stephen writes (emphasis added):

The trouble is that as that 102 Wm2 rises it converts to gravitational potential energy which is not heat and does not radiate and so you can’t send a corresponding amount of DWIR back down.
Latent heat of evaporation converts to extra gravitational potential energy the instant it is released on condensation since it immediately enhances uplift.
So, you cant have all that PE radiating down as DWIR. It cannot raise surface temperature whilst it is in PE form.

The only way to increase the gravitational potential energy of a parcel of air is to raise its height in the gravitational well. Phase change just happens when the conditions are right at a given altitude. If there is an altitude change subsequent to the phase change then THAT would convert KE to PE according to the lapse rate, but the the release of latent heat via condensation does not itself involve any conversion of KE to PE.

It all boils down to the simple facts that one cannot get DWIR from gravitational potential energy and the latent heat of evaporation goes straight to PE on release by condensation.

If the nub of the issue is the idea that “the latent heat of evaporation goes straight to PE on release by condensation,” it would seem to require some discussion and justification! Can this claim be defended?

Editor
April 10, 2014 8:57 am

Stephen has given a bit of an explanation for his claim that latent heat immediately converts to PE upon condensation:

The warmed air immediately becomes warmer than the surroundings and rises higher thereby creating more PE.

But the heat has already been released, warming the mid-atmosphere. Any subsequent movements of the air are just movements. The released heat gets mixed around a bit up there. This does not alter the fact that heat has been released, making the mid-atmosphere warmer than it would have been and hence increasing its infrared radiation.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 9:40 am

Mervyn says:

Please remember, you cannot create more heat out of that which exists unless work is applied (First Law of Thermodynamics)

Where are we creating more heat than exists? How much energy does the sun deliver to the Earth each second?

and a cooler substance cannot pass its heat to a warmer substance (Second of Law of Thermodynamics). The Second Law is an absolute law.

Since you are such an expert on the Second Law, please define for us precisely what is meant by “heat”. Then show us how the positing the existence of back-radiation means you are saying that heat passes from a cooler substance to a warmer substance.

This is basic laws of physics.
‘Back Radiation’ is not a law, it is not a valid theory, and it is not even a valid hypothesis. It is simply an IPCC supposition to justify its positive water vapour feedback mechanism.

And yet, you would be hard-pressed to find a physicist who agrees with you, whether they are a “warmest” (like me) or a “skeptic” (like Robert Brown, Judith Curry, or Fred Singer). Why do you suppose that is?

phi
April 10, 2014 10:41 am

joeldshore,
The concept of backradiation does not have more relevance than that of backconduction. Better not use it.

Stephen Wilde
April 10, 2014 10:44 am

Alec Rawls said:
“making the mid-atmosphere warmer than it would have been and hence increasing its infrared radiation.”
Except that the bulk gases, mainly 02 and N2, are supposed to have virtually no radiative capability so how are they going to radiate their energy anywhere ?
They acquire energy from the latent heat release via conduction but cannot radiate it out so they have to rise higher instead. The rise higher cancels the warming by converting KE to PE.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 10:46 am

Stephen Wilde say:

The warmed air immediately becomes warmer than the surroundings and rises higher thereby creating more PE.

There is certainly no basis for increasing DWIR to 324 as though zero PE were being created by the increased uplift.

As has been explained to you many times (but which you fail to comprehend because you are unteachable), to compute the work done in raising a parcel of the atmosphere from one altitude to another, you have to include all forces…not just the gravitational force. You cannot ignore the buoyant force, i.e., the force of the surrounding atmosphere on that parcel. There is more to the world than just kinetic and potential energies when you have non-conservative forces acting.
The “derivation” of the adiabatic lapse rate by Hans Jelbring is not correct since he does not understand how to apply conservation of energy correctly, i.e., he ignores the work done by the buoyant force and he also ignores the work done by the parcel of gas on its surroundings when it adiabatically expands. The fact that he almost gets the right answer (“almost” meaning if you ignore the difference between specific heat at constant volume and specific heat at constant pressure, as I recall) is due to these two (partially) compensating errors.
Until you understand the difference between correct application of the laws of physics and erroneous application of the laws of physics, there is little that can be gleaned in any discussion with you except confirmation of the fact that you don’t understand physics.

joeldshore
April 10, 2014 10:48 am

phi says:

joeldshore,
The concept of backradiation does not have more relevance than that of backconduction. Better not use it.

Well, I think the terminology is a bit unfortunate too. However, arguing about what terminology to use is different than whether you have the physics correct or incorrect. Mervyn has the physics wrong, no matter what terminology you use.

Stephen Wilde
April 10, 2014 10:51 am

joeldshore said:
“You don’t even understand it well enough to pass a first year physics course.”
Please specify the piece of first year physics that invalidates what I said.
Why can there not be 102 Wm2 of KE situated at a surface beneath an adiabatic, convective atmospheric circulation and unable to depart to space as radiation ?
After all, if it could leave to space as radiation then the atmosphere would fall to the ground would it not ?

SkepticGoneWild
April 10, 2014 11:18 am

Joel,
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states:
Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time
This law has not changed. It’s the same law I learned in my physics classes at university.
If you need a definition of heat, please refer to any university level physics text.
The sun is the only energy source which heats the earth. Backradiation will have no effect. That energy has already been accounted for. Reflected energy will not and cannot cause a body to increase in temperature. That would be a violation of the First Law as well.
As far as your last statement is concerned, arguments from popularity don’t cut it in the field of science. This new version of the Second Law seems to be popular in the field of climatology. If scientists want to create an alternate version of the Second Law, there is a well established protocol known as the scientific method, whereby the new proposed law could be validated.

Kristian
April 10, 2014 11:45 am

Willis Eschenbach says, April 8, 2014 at 10:09 am:
“For example, when the surface is warmer than the atmosphere, it is constantly losing energy to the atmosphere through conduction/convection. This is not affected in the slightest by the fact that Steven mentions, which is that air warms when it descends. So what? The surface will still be losing heat to the atmosphere as long as it is warmed by the sun.
The same is true about evaporation. When water on the surface evaporates, it cools the surface. Period. It doesn’t matter that “the moist adiabatic lapse rate during ascent is less than the dry lapse rate”. That’s true … but it doesn’t return energy to the surface, that would be a violation of the Second Law.”
(My bold.)
True dat!

Kristian
April 10, 2014 11:48 am

Stephen,
You are WRONG on this issue!

Frank
April 10, 2014 11:49 am

Trick: Do a Google image search for infrared spectrum atmospheric gases. You will find hundreds of graphs showing that atmospheric gases do not absorb like a blackbody. The emission spectrum is exactly the same as the absorption spectrum – gases only emit at the wavelengths they absorb. (Emission is simply absorption with time running backwards.)
The spectra you do see are mostly low resolution spectra that allow you to see the broad absorption bands, but not the fine structure of the multitude of lines produced when many possible changes in rotational energy states are combined with one change in vibration. At high pressures and temperatures, these line broaden (by collisions and Doppler shift) and eventually merge into a single band. You can see what the 15 um CO2 band looks like at:
http://clivebest.com/blog/?p=4597
http://scienceofdoom.com/2011/03/12/understanding-atmospheric-radiation-and-the-“greenhouse”-effect-–-part-nine/

Kristian
April 10, 2014 11:52 am

I do agree with ‘climatereason’ (tonyb), though when saying (April 8, 2014 at 2:51 pm):
“I am very uncomfortable with Stephen being humiliated in this way. If his article was not up to scratch it might have been better to have told him why, and not run the item.”

MikeB
April 10, 2014 12:00 pm

After all, if it could leave to space as radiation then the atmosphere would fall to the ground would it not ?

Steve, give up. I think you are probably a nice guy but with all respect learn some basic physics of heat transfer first. Could I suggest starting with how heat passes through a planar wall.
http://scienceofdoom.com/2010/09/12/heat-transfer-basics-part-zero/
And skepticGoneWild, maybe you would like to read it too. And then both progress to see how a 30,000 watt heat source can ‘create energy ‘ to generate 1,824,900 watts.
http://scienceofdoom.com/2010/07/26/do-trenberth-and-kiehl-understand-the-first-law-of-thermodynamics/
When you understand that, move to the next square.
If you don’t understand it, find some other hobby./

Stephen Wilde
April 10, 2014 12:26 pm

Kristian said:
“It doesn’t matter that “the moist adiabatic lapse rate during ascent is less than the dry lapse rate”. That’s true … but it doesn’t return energy to the surface, that would be a violation of the Second Law.”
I know it doesn’t return ENERGY to the surface. It does return HEAT to the surface as PE is converted back to KE so no violation of the Second Law.
PE is not heat and does not radiate until it becomes KE again.
MikeB said:
“Could I suggest starting with how heat passes through a planar wall.”
I don’t see anything there about convection and the conversion of KE to PE with height. It is that process that removes energy from the radiation budget at one time and returns it at a later time.

MikeB
April 10, 2014 12:40 pm

Come on Steve, you didn’t have time to read it never mind understand it. But you would be right, there is nothing there about convection (that’s for the big boys). But you have to learn the basics first. Then you can progress. You seem to have an auto-block on learning and so you stay on the dragon slayer rung. To learn, you have to be willing to learn – right?

1 8 9 10 11 12 17