Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A few months ago [2012] in the New York Times Green Blog they talked about “monetizing” the “social cost” of carbon. The article said:
In 2010, 12 government agencies working in conjunction with economists, lawyers and scientists, agreed to work out what they considered a coherent standard for establishing the social cost of carbon. The idea was that, in calculating the costs and benefits of pending policies and regulations, the Department of Transportation could not assume that a ton of emitted carbon dioxide imposed a $2 cost on society while the Environmental Protection Agency plugged 10 times that amount into its equations.
How does one “monetize” something, and what is a “social cost” when it is in its native habitat?
First, the easy one. A “social cost” is generally some estimated or inferred cost to society from something, in particular a cost that is not reflected in the price of the item itself. For example, alcohol has a social cost in the form of a variety of societal problems. That cost is not included in the raw ex-factory price of alcoholic beverages.
Next, to “monetize” a social cost means 1) to attach some monetary value to that social cost, and then 2) to attach that monetary value to the retail cost of the product in the form of an increased price. In the case of alcohol, that is usually done through government taxes. Sometimes, the revenue from these taxes is dedicated to ameliorating that social cost. In the case of alcohol, that might be in the form of alcohol dependence programs or clinics. Other times the income goes into the general fund.
This is generally not a problem as long as there is widespread agreement about the existence of the social costs. In the case of carbon emissions, however, no such agreement exists. There is no evidence of current costs or damages, only models of possible imagined future damages. Accordingly, even among those who agree that there is a social cost to carbon emissions, there is wide disagreement about the size of those costs.
However, despite the differences, and despite the lack of evidence of any demonstrable costs, the attempt to “monetize” the imagined future damages from carbon emissions continue apace. As you might imagine, I object to the whole process. Oddly, they didn’t listen to me, and the article in the NY Times say that they have settled on a value of $21 per tonne of carbon. The article said one government agency was using $2 a ton and another was using ten times that, or $20 a ton. So I guess they took the average of the two and used that average of $21 per ton for all government calculations … but again I digress.
Over-riding everything in this question is the unthinking, un-acknowledged destruction from jacking up energy prices. This always hits the poor hardest, as I have discussed elsewhere. Energy taxes, including carbon taxes and “monetizations” are the most regressive tax of all. But I digress … I was discussing monetization of carbon.
Let me recapitulate my two main objections to carbon monetization. The first is that for many issues, including carbon, there is no agreed upon way to establish the monetary values. In the case of CO2 there are questions about the very existence of such costs, much less their value. As the NYT article points out, there is great disagreement over the $21 figure even among those who agree that there is some social cost to CO2. Since there is no actual evidence of any actual costs, this is all merely claims and counterclaims, even between adherents. There is no objective way to settle the disagreements.
My second objection is that while people are often in a hurry to monetize the social costs of something, they rarely take the necessary other step. They rarely are in a hurry to monetize the social benefits of something. But if you do one, you have to do the other. After all, this is why it’s called a “cost/benefit” analysis …
I have even had someone seriously argue that there is no need to monetize the social benefits, because they were already included in the market price. After all, he argued, the reason we buy something is because of the perceived benefits. So they are already included in the price.
I find this argument singularly unconvincing. Some benefits are already included in the price, and some aren’t. Since a single counter-example will serve to disprove the general theorem, let me take a social benefit of CO2 as an example. This is the known effect of atmospheric CO2 levels on plants, which is that they increase their production with increasing atmospheric CO2. Obviously, nobody goes out and buys gasoline for their car in order to help the plants, so it is not included in the market price. However, increased plant growth is an undoubted social benefit, a huge one that affects the whole world. Therefore, it is an un-accounted for social benefit, one which does not get included in the price.
Accordingly, let’s take a look at monetizing this un-accounted social benefit. Curiously, the value of increased plant production is both easier and less contentious to calculate than are the claimed social costs of CO2. Why?
Well, it’s because the claimed costs of CO2 are future, imaginary costs that cannot be measured, where the increased plant production is both real and measurable. But I digress.
The folks over at CO2 Science have looked at the experimentally measured increase in plant biomass due to a 300 ppmv increase in atmospheric CO2. The figures are here, in Table 2. The changes are different for each plant, ranging from about 30% to 60%. So let’s be conservative and use the bottom end, an average 30% increase from a 300 ppmv increase. CO2 levels have gone up about 115 ppmv since pre-industrial times. This means that there has been on the order of a 10% increase in the annual production due to CO2.
Now, how much is this 10% increase in global plant production worth? Well, the marvelous FAO database called FAOSTAT puts the value of the annual plant production at ten trillion dollars annually, so lets assume a third of that, say $3.3 trillion dollars. Is $3.3 correct? There you have the problem with monetization … no way to know. But assuming that a 10% increase from some smaller value is due to increased CO2, that puts the annual value of this one single solitary social benefit of CO2 at over $300 billion dollars.
How does that compare to the proposed $21 per tonne social cost? Well, at present we’re emitting about 9.5 gigatonnes of carbon annually. That would mean that the total monetized social cost would be $21 times that number of tonnes emitted, which gives us about $200 billion dollars per year.
So here’s the balance—we have a verified, measurable social benefit to the planet of $300 billion annually, and an unverified, unmeasurable estimated social cost of $200 billion annually. Which leaves me with just one burning question …
When do I get my check for the social benefits I’m providing? The US has provided somewhere around a third of the CO2 responsible for that social benefit, that’s $100 billion per year in benefits … three hundred million Americans, that’s about $333 per American per year …
w.
PS—What’s that I hear you saying? You think I calculated the benefits wrong?
Well, certainly, perhaps I did. After all, it was just a rough cut. But all that does is bring us back to my first objection to “monetizing” CO2 … it’s very hard to get agreement on the actual values.
PPS—Note that I’ve only considered one single social benefit, the increase in plant production. Since their claimed costs relate to claimed future temperature rises, how about the benefit of increased ice-free days at the northern ports if temperatures do rise? And the longer growing seasons if temperatures increase? How much are they worth worldwide? They likely have included the extra costs from air-conditioning to fight the fabled future heat, but have they included the reduction in winter heating? I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point. The whole thing is an exercise in fantasy, shifting sands with no clear answers.
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Willis: “I consider the closing as a sad commentary on the hijacking of the environmental movement by carbon alarmists. CO2 alarmism has done huge damage to the environmental movement, and thus to the environment itself.”
Indeed. I’m of the generation who grew up demanding recycling of paper and glass. In the 80’s I was a signed-up Greenpeace supporter (ie sent them a regular check, though even that long ago, when they got into glossy catalogues and merchandising, I saw the writing on the wall and told them I no longer wished to support what they were doing. The cheques stopped).
Now, whenever some enviro starts deploring some ecological disaster, my initial reaction is “Oh yeah, where’s the proof?”
The sad part is they may be right and I may want to support efforts to prevent it but I no longer believe a frigging word they say”. Neither do I have the time to thoroughly research any and all issues since all my spare time gets eaten up fighting their AGW propagandistic bullshit.
The environmental movement has f[snip!] itself. And as a result disarmed all those of us are concerned about REAL environmental problems.
Reply:Inverting two letters is not enough. -ModE]
Willis said:
My second objection is that while people are often in a hurry to monetize the social costs of something, they rarely take the necessary other step. They rarely are in a hurry to monetize the social benefits of something. But if you do one, you have to do the other. After all, this is why it’s called a “cost/benefit” analysis …
===========================================================================
The costs assigned are always punitive. The other side is left to the greedy to both calculate and speculate in for their own benefit…it’s how the rich become rich.
Lets not forget the other big disbenefit caused by the AGW scam – forcing up food prices by mandating arable crop land for fuel production. Since the poor spend relatively high percentages of their income on fuel and food any action which increases the cost of either impacts disproportionately.
In order to ascertain supposed social value or pricing, one must first establish what cost (if any) is actually incurred.
And the evidence is becoming clearer every day that there is no actual cost to carbon.
Some politicians are finally waking up. Canada’s Prime Minister Harper has withdrawn the country from Kyoto, for example.
davidmhoffer (troll mode) says:
January 11, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Willis,
I don’t think you can claim a 10% productivity increase on the basis of the numbers …
======================================================================
You have the Medieval Warming Period as a close historical source.
Agriculture then was pretty primitive compared with now, yet the economic
surplus from the increase in agricultural production financed the Crusades
and the burst of Cathedral building across Europe. A bit of research into that
gain should be possible … and give a better value than an estimate.
… just a thought.
I think if we’re going to get into ‘social benefits’ of carbon dioxide we are going to have a complex discussion indeed.
I agree wholeheartedly that ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, plants grow faster with more seeohtwo around. Question is, are all other things equal?
a. What level of water do those plants need? Do they prefer steady feeding, short-sharp deluges or seasonal dousings??
b. Do particular plants grow slower, faster or not at all in different habitats, notably free of shade, in areas where daily temperatures fluctuate more due to the loss of forest cover, where daytime light may be more intensely focussed due to man-made reflective surfaces etc?
c. Do the other essential nutrients required for growth get affected by the type of rainfall, the other foliage etc etc? What happens to bioavailability of trace elements, NPK etc etc?
The global audits will be:
i. If you chop down forests and replace them with cows, you will create greater levels of desert, ergo fewer plants.
ii. If you get flash floods on deforested lands, you increase the rate of fertile soil erosion, thereby reducing the ability to use that land productively in future.
iii. If you reduce the fertility of the soil through deforestation, you are more likely to leach out essential minerals from what remains when heavy rains occur.
Of course, things can get much, much more complex than that.
The question of course would arise as to what the correlation is between increasing seeohtwo emissions and chopping down forests etc.
A question probably impossible to prove in a court of law, but the crux to any sentient and thinking society.
Complicated all this, isn’t it?!
Lew Skannen says:
January 11, 2013 at 10:46 pm
Our beloved Australian government has done a pretty good job of carbonizing money.
They have burned through billions on this insane CAGW scam.
You must be looking forward to the Coalition spending $10 billion taxpayer’s money to reduce CO2 emissions by 5% by 2020. Absurdly enough, the leader has said that ‘Climate science is crap.’ and the free market party is eschewing market-based instruments in favour of direct spending by government.
Spot the inconsistencies.
“Dellers” notes the demise of the NYT’s Environment desk.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100197832/now-even-pravda-admits-the-global-warming-jig-is-up/
In his usual fashion!
Oh the hope that Monbiot goes into the rubbish bin too!
BrianMcL says:
January 12, 2013 at 12:03 am
Lets not forget the other big disbenefit caused by the AGW scam – forcing up food prices by mandating arable crop land for fuel production.
I support AGW science and I oppose biofuels completely – for the reasons you raise and for others besides. It is quite obvious that special interest groups have ‘captured’ this bit of the AGW response to the disbenefit of taxpayers, the poverty-stricken, and the planet.
davidmhoffer
Climate Ace;
I take issue with a common meme of BAU boosters, that action on carbon dioxide is ‘unfair’ to the poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I read an article a while back about a woman in some dirt poor country in Asia. She had a rice paddy and a small gasoline powered pump which she used to irrigate the rice paddy. She was talked into giving up the gas powered pump and instead used a foot treadle powered pump. It took her 6 hours a day to pump the same amount of water, but the benefit to her was that she earned an extra $10 in carbon credits.
I read an article a while back about a an inuit village in Canada that needs to find tens of millions of dollars because the lack of sea ice and fast ice is no longer protecting their land from coastal erosion. Their village will fall into the sea so it needs to be shifted.
If I used your lack of logic I would draw some overwhelming general conclusions from this one story about the relationship between poverty and AGW.
But, IMHO, it would not hold water. The first reason is the obvious one: one example would not support such glib over-generalisations.
I suggest you go back to taws and to stop trying to conflate poverty and AGW issues. Poverty is an issue in an of itself. Poverty is a major issue with BAU. It will be a major issue with AGW. Either way, it needs to be addressed as poverty.
AGW is also an issue in and off itself. It needs to be addressed as such.
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 11, 2013 at 9:07 pm
JT says:
January 11, 2013 at 8:52 pm
Um, the average of 20 + 2 = 22 is calculated by dividing 22 by 2 which = 11, not 21.
Yeah, I know, that was just my poor attempt at humor regarding the whole thing, that they picked the big number.
w.
—————————-
As soon as I read it I thought Willis should have added a /sarc tag.
Someone will miss it.
cn
Biofuels was mandated to support corn farmers. There is no environmental benefit in growing crops for fuel. The energy used in plowing,seeding, spraying, cropping, transporting, fermenting, distilling and distributing the end product is not recovered.
Biofuels as a by product using waste from food manufacture is a different matter.
jimshu says: January 11, 2013 at 9:54 pm
Just following up on my earlier post re nutritional values, there are reports that say that while volume of crops has increased, the actual nutritional value has markedly decreased.
– – –
Lets do a reverse analysis. If the CO2 levels were so low that we could only grow half as much food, but the nutritious content of that food per mass was improved, would that be a good thing?
I will copy my comment I made at JoNova on a recent thread, which apparently was well received by the greenies / warmists judging by the number of snipped comments it received 😉 :
http://joannenova.com.au/2013/01/gone-bezerkers-climate-change-will-turn-humans-turn-into-hobbits/
Gary Mount
January 8, 2013 at 5:16 pm · Reply
Let us imagine a scenario (to make the math easier) where the quantity of food we grow is more than double because of the increased CO2, but the nutritious content is only 95% what it otherwise is when only half as much food could be grown with the given inputs.
You have 2.1 times as much food x 95% nutrition and end up with twice as much nutrition overall available to the population, though each individual has to eat slightly more. Its a quantity trick when the alarmists state that food is less nutritious but leaving out the part where there is much more nutrition available overall. As stated in this article “we might have to eat a higher carbohydrate diet?”.
Climate Ace says at 10:10 pm on 11 Jan 2013 “I think I will stick with the views of those scientists in BOM and CSIRO whom I know personally”
Would these be the same whip-sharp Australian scientists that Ian Harris noted in Climategate One?
“Ian “Harry” Harris, a programmer at the Climate Research Unit, kept extensive notes of the defects he had found in the data and computer programs that the CRU uses in the compilation of its global mean surface temperature anomaly dataset. These notes, some 15,000 lines in length, were stored in the text file labeled “Harry_Read_Me.txt”, which was among the data released by the whistleblower with the Climategate emails. This is just one of his comments –
15
“[The] hopeless state of their (CRU) database. No uniform data integrity, it’s just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they’re found…I am very sorry to report that the rest of the databases seem to be in nearly as poor a state as Australia was. There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations, one with no WMO and one with, usually overlapping and with the same station name and very similar coordinates. I know it could be old and new stations, but why such large overlaps if that’s the case? Aarrggghhh! There truly is no end in sight.
“This whole project is SUCH A MESS. No wonder I needed therapy!!
“I am seriously close to giving up, again. The history of this is so complex that I can’t get far enough into it before by head hurts and I have to stop. Each parameter has a tortuous history of manual and semi-automated interventions that I simply cannot just go back to early versions and run the updateprog. I could be throwing away all kinds of corrections – to lat/lons, to WMOs (yes!), and more. So what the hell can I do about all these duplicate stations?””
…………………………………
I have file after file like this, some going back to 1985, before CAGW was trendy. though it was about then that research fund allocation started to favour “the environment” rather than more tangible matters. What I mean is, after that time, more and more reasearch money was spent on knowing less and less. We shall never know the major innovations, inventions, discoveries that were not made, or that were delayed for decades, by this mad rush of CAGW spending.
……………………….
Give me the evidence, Climate Ace. 1. Name one way in which you have been personally harmed (or benefitted) by the notion of climate change. 2. Show me the quantitative paper that links GHG change with global temperature – it will have to be after 2012, because there is not one before then.
Although I am not a believer that the 40% rise in CO2 levels over the past 150 years has had much to do with the modest (circa 0.7 degrees C) increase in temperature over the same period, this thought brings up the question:
In the unlikely event the alarmists are correct about CO2 being the principal cause of the recent temperature rise, then we would obviously still be experiencing the climate of the LIA. This means less rainfall in monsoon regions, lower temperatures in the wheat lands of the northern hemisphere. In other words, a greater frequency of crop failure and famine. Our ability to produce sufficient food for the world’s population would be significantly reduced.
So using the logic of ‘climate science’, someone like me who has a relatively large carbon footprint (but only a tiny fraction of that of Al Gore) needs to be rewarded/ compensated for this by the poor. After all, without Al Gore and I most of them would have starved to death.
I am not sure which concept is more ridiculous: taxing the poor for not producing enough CO2, or CAGW.
garymount
IMHO, nano technology, GMOs, a global move down the trophic chain, and some heavy lifting on preventing food waste might just get us to feeding the extra billions that are already, in a manner of speaking, in the pipeline.
Atmospheric CO2 based productivity changes might contribute, and IMHO if they do, good. We should welcome them. But then again they might also be offset by productivity-smashing heatwaves as is occurring in Australia at the moment.
Garymount, your supposition regarding the nutrient content of food in higher carbon-dioxide concentrations is too simplistic. Cassava leaves and roots both contain glycosides that break down to release toxic hydrogen cyanide when chewed or crushed. Villagers grind cassava roots to make flour, which can be processed to remove cyanide, but leaves are often eaten raw. The cyanide can cause a condition called konzo that permanently paralyses the legs. One study found that 9 per cent of Nigerians suffer some form of cyanide poisoning from eating cassava.
The toxicity of cassava increases as the concentration of carbon-dioxide increases. The toxicity iincreases again if the plants are water stressed. This is a problem with droughts increasingly affecting areas of Africa where cassava is a staple food for poor people.
BTW your analysis that the nutritional content only reduces by 95% is interesting, where did you get that figure from? (And while you are at it, I would be interested where you got a 2.1 times increase in growth as well, both those figures appear to be very strange).
Climate Ace said @ur momisugly January 11, 2013 at 10:10 pm
I seem to recall those BOM/CSIRO scientists telling us that drought intensity/frequency was increasing and to prepare for perpetual drought. But when I look here:
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/rain.shtml
I see that rainfall has been increasing over the last hundred years. So how does rainfall and drought simultaneously increase? Perhaps you have a different definition of integrity to my OED.
Enhanced plant growth due to increased co2 is sound science. AGW[CAGW] proponents targeting of increased co2 and modern economies and society is based solely upon assumptions, speculation and the precautionary principle. Pro-AGWer’s side stepping their lack of a solid scientific foundation and unable to prove or show empirically how they are correct and talking up a storm about everything else is ancillary to the main argument of their half-baked, unfounded and alarmist AGW hypothesis- boils down to intellectual masturbation and a deliberate distraction away from their failed position.
The CAGWer’s usually fall back upon their pet assumptions and hope nobody notices, such as attributing weather events and trends such as a heatwave[apparently for them, heatwaves never existed until modern times] to AGW. How is that position any different than those during the Middle Ages who, without the slightest empirical evidence, deemed certain types of people needed to be sacrificed for the common good and to improve the weather?
Climate Ace says:
January 12, 2013 at 2:13 am
Atmospheric CO2 based productivity changes might contribute, and IMHO if they do, good. We should welcome them. But then again they might also be offset by productivity-smashing heatwaves as is occurring in Australia at the moment.
What you fail to mention is China’s & Russia’s cold wave. Or is it also caused by AGW? This was called weather in the old times. Everything gets now blamed on AGW.
You know the measured average temperature is disconnected from models forecasts, but you still spew nonsense based on models forecasts.
Why don’t you look at satellite data – sea level temperature and atmosphere temperature?
Why is RSS, UAH and Sea Level temperature so much off with CAGW model predictions?
Atmospheric CO2 might contribute
This is a measured value per satellite. So don’t put your head in sand. We have a measured greening of the Earth:
http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/the-greening-of-the-planet.aspx
period. Digest that, it is fact.
I am sorry if my post sounds too aggressive but I am being fed off with alarmists tunes. If you have something to say please show evidence for your arguments, don’t just spam the blog.
Further to my last comment, I occasionally have a drink with a CSIRO employee who claims to have a doctorate in astrophysics. He claims the barycentre of the solar system is always in the exact centre of the sun. Far from “whip-smart” I’d say.
davidmhoffer (troll mode) says:
January 11, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Willis,
I don’t think you can claim a 10% productivity increase on the basis of the numbers you presented because you haven’t established that there is a linear relationship. For example, if CO2 concentrations were 10,000X you would obviously not expect land to produce wheat at 400,000 bushels to the acre. Sure that’s a ridiculous comparison, but I think you should be able to see my point? The net benefit of CO2 increases to plant growth is probably logarithmic, I’d suggest that your estimate is rather high. An increase of perhaps 5% or even lower seems more in line with reality.
David, the increase is certainly not linear and above 2000 ppm is contraproductive or toxic, however we are still on the side of the slope where increase is significant. If I correctly remember satellite data were showing some increase in plans growth of about 10-11% only for the last 3 decades. the numbers on top of my head, need again to check but must not be too way off.
chinook said @ur momisugly January 12, 2013 at 3:09 am
Much of the enhanced growth due to higher CO2 levels is due to reduced transpiration of water by the plant. The pores in plant leaves that allow gas exchange also allow water vapour to be lost. Higher levels of CO2 lead to decreased pore-size, reducing this latter effect. According to the CSIRO, this leads to a decrease in water runoff.
Climate Ace says “The issue is poverty. The issue is AGW.”
I disagree with your (purely didactic) reasoning in this thread, which you now seem to have taken over – 26 search hits on your moniker as I write. It would also be helpful if you occasionally gave reasons behind your propositions, and meanings for the cascade of TLAs (three-letter acronyms) you use.
Your hypothesis (as you set it out above) was: “I think I will stick with the views of those scientists in BOM and CSIRO whom I know personally (I am not a climate scientist). They are whip-smart and, to my personal knowledge, behave with integrity. You would have no idea of the depth of utter contempt I have for the occasional pig-ignorant posters who mount vicious personal attacks on what I know very well to be ordinary, decent, human beings …”
At the outset Willis said: “CO2 alarmism has done huge damage to the environmental movement, and thus to the environment itself”. That is not a personal attack of any kind – it is a comment on a matter of public concern (see principles of defamation) on something in a field in which you accept you are not an expert. I don’t see any other “vicious personal attacks” in this thread.
And, from your hypothesis above, all your arguments are vicarious (“ … stick with the views of [others]”): do you not have anything personally to share with us lesser mortals here?
I won’t even get started on your conflating poverty and AGW – have you not encountered the differences between market and command economies? Under which of these systems do you think poverty is less, in absolute terms?
Pretty much covered it w. Nice.
It’s become ‘trendy’ to talk about internalizing externalities and using market mechanisms for it. It’s mostly a phony “Given these conclusions what assumptions can we draw?” game with the “interested parties” having their thumb on the scales. “Just say no. Thank you very much…”
Once they can demonstrate that there really IS a problem (not just “project one”, but predict it, then measure it, then confirm it independently) and that it IS caused by CO2, maybe we can talk. Maybe….
Oh, and they need to let go of that whole ‘take over running the world from the UN’ thing. “Cost of entry” if they want me to play…