
Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University, commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely. – Anthony
Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:
The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.
This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?
For shame.
Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.
By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.
Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.
The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!
Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.
There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.
Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.
This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.
The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.
These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.
The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
In particular, I quote:
For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a
friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.
One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.
I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government
advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether
drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it
would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a
result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re
being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.
Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?
And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!
Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.
Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.
For shame.
Jean Parisot says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:42 am
(although I haven’t written a quantum textbook, sadly)
I tried, the paper kept moving around.
There’s the problem — you’re not supposed to look at it…
TimC says:
June 27, 2012 at 12:40 am
davidmhoffer said: “handing the enemy a victory …”.
Who is “the enemy”, exactly? We are not at war:
>>>>>>>>>>
We are. If you want to understand physics, you study physics. If you want to understand war, then study war. I’ve provided you with two of the best text books on the matter, and if you study them, you’ll learn two things:
1. Most of winning a war has nothing to do with fighting.
2. We are at war.
I refuse to engage any longer with Myrrh and Greg House until they actually study the phyics they repeatedly demonstrate they do not understand, and I will no longer respond to you until you have at least read Sun Tzu and are conversant in the basic concepts of war. If you still believe at that point that we are not at war, then I’ll debate the point with you then.
Can’t argue with that – it’s certainly been educational. I was just getting a bit worried for Dr Brown’s blood pressure – but from his response, he seems to be doing just fine 🙂
Inserting a bit of humor — even if it eludes its objects — helps. I guess Dave Hoffer went to bed — I was looking forward to his response at being identified (in only the best of ways, David:-) with an elf. But he gets — and can take and dish out in return — a joke. Or iocaine powder, as needed.
But the marginal benefit of the thread is systematically diminishing and once again I’m contemplating moving along. But every time I do somebody makes the most absurd statement, something that does indeed make the “d” word swell to even my own very lips where I have to manfully suppress it (even though I did explicitly except its use to describe specific individuals in informal venues like blog posts in my top article and immediately ff). Still, I try to avoid open incongruity where I can.
rgb
Robert Brown
I take umbrage at the accusation that I am en elf based merely on my admission that consuming cabbage roles is a favoured endeavour which in turn causes me to fart. I am a gentleman, and gentleman do not fart. We occasionaly contribute to the diversity of the atmospheric composition. This is akin to ladies, whom, as I am certain you are well aware, do not sweat. They glisten. True, some glisten like a pig, but that is another matter.
I do however, have an elf infestation. No matter how much effort I spend clearing up the clutter in the house, putting things where they belong, and so on and so forth, the house remains a mess. I’ve even found my tools from the garage enexplicably strewn about a half built fort at the back of the yard, seemingly lying at random in the grass. I had at one point considered the possibility that my children were the culprits, but they said otherwise and so I conclude I have an elf infestation. Not being able to see them is no proof that they do not exist. This is along the same lines of course as the black hole in the back of my clothes dryer. While I cannot see it, I know that it is there, because socks disappear one at a time through it. They reappear as wire clothes hangers in my closet (I have no other possible source to consider this, so by default these are transformed socks. The correlation is excellent BTW).
I have noticed that since the offspring moved out to domiciles of their own, elf activity seems to have decreased. My understanding is that as the elf colonies grow, they split up and seek new homes. I was unaware that elves drank so heavily, but I have also noticed the liquor cabinet seems to be depleting at a far lower rate as well.
Robert Brown says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:08 am
I also see you’ve been feeding the trolls again. I warned against this very thing in my first post – you can explain all you want and they ask for experiments; you describe experiments and they say they’re not relevant.
I’m a compulsive teacher, what can I say. Or perhaps I view it as practice. I keep thinking that if I explain it just so, lay it out so very clearly in only a few steps, minimize the requirements for special knowledge, keep it stuff they can add up on fingers and toes by looking at actual data…
_____________________________
Has anyone ever tried the “Al Gore Experiment” using actual sunlight and instead of glass an IR transparent media like NaCl sort of like Tscheuschner did? If you ran the experiment with several identical decent size chambers in a desert so the RH is low, you should get some decent information about the effects of CO2, H2O vapor vs pure N2. Given the trillions of dollars spent on CAGW you could even set the darn experiment up on the Moon and shade the experiment area after 12 hours to see the result of day vs night.
Robert Brown says: June 27, 2012 at 12:33 am
[…]
3) Elves that never fart, produce no ozone
At what point, if ever, do the never farting elves become airborne?
Couldn’t escape the image that evoked. Thank you for your contributions here, they have been a pleasure to read over the past few days.
wayne says:
June 27, 2012 at 3:17 am
Greg House, you seem in need of some tools, if I read your stance correct.
==========================================================
No, you did not, I am afraid.
What we can see in this thread is
1. no warmist can give a link to a real genuine falsifiable scientific experiment proving that CO2 in it’s usual concentration 300-400 ppm (ca. 1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules) warms (reduces cooling) by 7 degrees and
2. what they did present to convince the public was at best a fake: http://wattsupwiththat.com/climate-fail-files/gore-and-bill-nye-fail-at-doing-a-simple-co2-experiment/
This is a strong indication that CO2 warming narratives are science fiction and all the conflicting extensive narratives are either a product of misunderstanding or designed to fool people.
davidmhoffer says (June 27, 2012 at 8:25 am): “They reappear as wire clothes hangers in my closet (I have no other possible source to consider this, so by default these are transformed socks. The correlation is excellent BTW).”
Coat hangers? An Avram Davidson reference?
http://www.kollectiv.co.uk/Objects.html
Greg House says (June 27, 2012 at 8:38 am): “This is a strong indication that CO2 warming narratives are science fiction and all the conflicting extensive narratives are either a product of misunderstanding or designed to fool people.”
*sigh* Well, fellas, looks like the jig is up. Greg & Myrrh are just too smart for us.
Congratulations, Greg. You’re right: there is no sailboat. 🙂
1. no warmist can give a link to a real genuine falsifiable scientific experiment proving that CO2 in it’s usual concentration 300-400 ppm (ca. 1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules) warms (reduces cooling) by 7 degrees and
2. what they did present to convince the public was at best a fake: http://wattsupwiththat.com/climate-fail-files/gore-and-bill-nye-fail-at-doing-a-simple-co2-experiment/
This is a strong indication that CO2 warming narratives are science fiction and all the conflicting extensive narratives are either a product of misunderstanding or designed to fool people.
1) is simply untrue, in detail. Well, it might be true in a weird sort of way, given that I’m no “warmist” and nobody said a word about “7 degrees” in some unspecified temperature scale… so maybe this is a straw man instead of an overt fingers in your ears and blindfold on lie.
And way to insert a non-sequitor straw man in at the end in 2)!
At this point rgb runs from the room screaming.
Cya.
rgb
Greg House says:
“…1 molecule CO2 from 3000 air molecules…”
Greg has given that incorrect ratio several times now. If he can’t get that right…
davidmhoffer said “If you still believe … we are not at war, then I’ll debate the point with you then.”
Can’t you really see that stereotyping the other side to the CAGW debate as “enemies” is the first step on the road of “labelling and dehumanising” them, over which you were railing and cussing upstream in this thread? Wait a moment – of course you’re now shunning me. And Myrrh, and Greg House. What on earth did we do to deserve this? Others might like to know …
Robert,
“How do you get Pu238? I thought one of the advantages of Thorium is that it is virtually nuclear proliferation proof.”
Getting a little “Off Topic” here but you are right as usual. You get very little Plutonium using the Thorium cycle and most of it is Pu238 rather than common old Pu239 (bomb stuff). The USA stock of Pu238 has been consumed by NASA in its deep space probes and they have used most of the Russian stock as well! The price is already millions of dollars per kilo. Thank goodness NASA only needs 5 kg per year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium-238
Greg, you still should at least look at that spreadsheet. I don’t think I misunderstood you. It shows there is *zero* effect on surface temperatures from co2 or any greenhouse gas in intermediate layers by radiation, just temperature differentials, very key there. You can never trap heat with a gas per se. Sheets of physical matter, like aluminum, is a different case with one hemisphere 100% blocked but by conduction. Reducing convection is also another case but neither of those apply to a planetary atmosphere of gases.
However, changes in a mixture of gases’ global emissivity (optical thickness) from the surface DOES affect cooling by radiation from the surface, but Miskolczi showed that has not occurred in the last sixty years. None. The sixty dots all plot pretty exactly on top of each other.
Vince Causey says:
June 26, 2012 at 7:17 am
Myrrh,
If you think the warming effect of a space blanket is entirely due to the suppression of convection, then why don’t you find the military just equiping their people with survival blankets made out of black plastic garbage bags? Surely that would work just as well.
Could it be something to do with the difference in colour? Now why would that be
===
Vince – I’m having great difficulty getting my meaning across because y’all don’t have the concepts to begin with.
I didn’t say entirely due, I said, from memory wuwt is going through another wordpress theft of time they’ve been messing with some key stroke capture tracking cookies or something and it’s slowed down use and posting to painful level, that AGWScience Fiction has taken out convection, so all these arguments are about radiation.
Now, in the real world the atmosphere around us is a real volume of gas, Air, and that is a fluid, liquids and gases are fluids, not solids. The primary means of heat transfer in fluids is convection – not radiation.
wiki on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_blanket
“In first aid the blankets are used to prevent/counter hypothermia. A threefold action facilitates this:
The airtight foil reduces convection
Heat loss caused by evaporation of perspiration, moisture or blood is minimized by the same mechanism
To a limited extent the reflective surface inhibits losses caused by thermal radiation.”
Smokey – radiation physics is pretty much irrelevant here. They concentrate on this because they don’t have an atmosphere in their world, the real atmosphere is a volume of fluid, not empty space. In a volume of fluid the primary means of heat transfer is convection. In the real world carbon dioxide is fully part of the water cycle which only exists in convective systems which they don’t have, because they only have empty space, so that is why the Water Cycle is missing from their energy budget.
Empty vessels make much noise..
Spencer really doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Also, he thinks the atmosphere is empty space with molecules travelling at tremendous speed through this bouncing off each other and thoroughly mixing.. He’s working to the idea of our atmosphere in the physics created for AGW, it’s imaginary and created out of imaginary ideal gas. His thought experiment is not only nonsense to real world applied physics, but has never been seen in all the gazillions of events in industries built on knowing real world physics. He has not produced a real experiment to show his thought experiment is fact. Please read No Virgina response to Spencer’s Yes virgina, real world trumps vivid but flawed fisics imagination, every time.
http://www.slayingtheskydragon.com/en/blog/185-no-virginia-cooler-objects-cannot-make-warmer-objects-even-warmer-still
That’s why some here go into paroxysmal angst when reality hits the fictional fisics of their imagination – they have to deny gravity and get extremely uppity and don’t know why..
..there’s no gravity in their ideal gas world.
Myrrh says (June 27, 2012 at 10:44 am): “Please read No Virgina response to Spencer’s Yes virgina…”
The most impressive thing about the “No, Virginia” supposed rebuttal is that nobody actually performed the experiment, proved Spencer wrong, revolutionized physics, slew the CAGW bogeyman, and received the adulation of a grateful world. WUWT?
“…real world trumps vivid but flawed fisics imagination, every time.”
Amen to that, brother. Yet the voodoo physicists cling to their imaginations, when one lousy experiment could prove them right. *sigh*
TimC;
Can’t you really see that stereotyping the other side to the CAGW debate as “enemies” is the first step on the road of “labelling and dehumanising” them, over which you were railing and cussing upstream in this thread?>>>>>
1. I wasn’t stereotyping them. I was protesting BEING stereotyped by them.
2. I didn’t propose to take some of their money and put it in my pocket. But they are proposing to take some of MY money and put it in their pocket, and suggesting that I am mentally deficient in some manner if I do not agree, and should be tricked if necessary into doing what they want.
3. Depending on which warmist meme one is talking about, their position ranges from taking action that has no merit and is a negtive impact to the economoy, to complete de-industrialization on a global basis that would result in the death of billions.
I didn’t “label” them enemies. The first step to winning a war is to recognize that you have an enemy, and that the enemy is preparing for war. If you’d actually read Sun Tzu (itz like less than 100 pages, you could knock it off in a day) you’d understand the concepts and recognize for yourself that society has an enemy, and that enemy is in fact at war with society. There is nothing “de-humanizing” about calling an enemy an enemy. It is just a fact that there are people out there that are lobbying very hard for some things that will be very bad for humanity. Unless of course you are one of those people that think we should have our population forcably reduced by 75% in which case… you are an enemy too.
Go. Read. Learn.
Dr. Brown, thanks for the comments… at least someone took the time to at least look and that’s nearly a first. 😉 I’ll take into consideration on each of your points but most of those have already been addressed to some degree. But you must realize why I didn’t attempt to present my 4th version instead of the spreadsheet where I began in the first place. One is that sending a complex spreadsheet with circular references would never have flown for most. But the basic reason is I wanted to present a *static* spreadsheet so anyone could so easily change anything in blue by just typing in a different number and SEE what occurred. My more complex versions do the same, nothing changes but numbers in the blue internal cells and they don’t affect us here at the surface. Does make airplanes in the atmosphere warmer or cooler though. Manually change the cells and see. 😉
For instance, let’s say I change the temperature at the 3 km level from 268.5 to 277 K which creates an inversion at that level, as if warm clouds were present at the 3000 meter level. What impressed me is that the OLR at the TOA does not change, the cell in red. The radiation and energy flux about those levels from 2000 to 4000 meter changes but it doesn’t appear to matter on the entire throughput of LR from the surface. The same applies to convection/evaporation, that absorbed by the atmosphere, nothing in blue ever affects the OLR at TOA. I just found that so curious! And it explains so much I have had problems with over the last three years trying to re-acclimate to atmospheric physics which I had never really taken a passion for in the past decades.
So, that was merely my first spread on this and I’ll look to implement your suggestions but if what I found in that ultra-simple beginning spreadsheet holds true, if all changes are in the blue cells, all of that is not going to matter one iota overall. That is what shook me awake.
I know that looks so incredible simple but Stefan-Boltzmann relation does some real non-intuitive movements within that I never expected, but, OTOH, most physics relation are symmetric at their core, if you dig to see what was used to build them in the fist place and S-B seems to be no exception.
Thanks Robert.
Gary Hladik says:
June 27, 2012 at 11:58 am
….The most impressive thing about the “No, Virginia” supposed rebuttal is that nobody actually performed the experiment, proved Spencer wrong, revolutionized physics, slew the CAGW bogeyman, and received the adulation of a grateful world. WUWT?….
_______________________________
That is why I asked if anyone had done the experiment @ur momisugly June 27, 2012 at 8:29 am or whatever the correct version of it is.
Tscheuschner did something in the line of what I mean but he has been shouted down as a “Kook” If his experiment is wrong why hasn’t the correct experiment been run?
Yes I do understand the 2nd law and I can follow the explanation @ur momisugly
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/29/visualizing-the-greenhouse-effect-molecules-and-photons/
and @ur momisugly http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/05/co2-heats-the-atmosphere-a-counter-view/
However given the fact we are being asked to wipe out our industrialized civilization and have spent trillions of dollars on this nonsense WHY hasn’t someone done the actual experiment with pure CO2, 100% humidity air and dry N2 and SHOWN how much PURE CO2 raises the temperature?
Perhaps the Atacama Desert (Chile) would be a suitable place.
SInce the CAGW crowd is talking about a doubling of CO2 raising the earth’s temperature by 2 to 3 C and we know that there are thermometers good to 0.0001, the experiment with a IR transparent container should be “easy” especially when you have billions of dollars to construct the IR transparent container.
Gail Combs;
The experiment you seek has been done:
http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm
Note the criticisms in the zip file at the top, which I believe are fair. Bottom line however is that this experiment shows rather conclusively that CO2 does in fact absorb and re-radiate IR. The order of magnitude is much smaller than what Heinz Hug expected based on the claims of warmists. But, as the criticisms point out, the experiment doesn’t scale to the atmosphere’s height, it assumed that water vapour would be consistant from one end of the container to the other which is NOT true in the atmosphere (water vapour levels fall with temperature and altitude while CO2 is kinda sorta evenly mixed) and in the container used there’s no such thing as convection and precipitation.
So, does Heinz Hug’s experiment show what the order of magnitude of warming from CO2 would be? No it does not. Does it demonstrate that CO2 absorbs and re-radiates IR as per the basic GHE theory? You bet it does. So does Robert Brown’s explanation above regarding earth versus the moon. Collecting data from the real world and analyzing it is just as scientifically valid as what Heinz Hug did, experiments don’t have to be conducted in a lab, they just need to be condcuted in a thorough manner with valid data.
Gail Combs says (June 27, 2012 at 1:15 pm): “SInce the CAGW crowd is talking about a doubling of CO2 raising the earth’s temperature by 2 to 3 C and we know that there are thermometers good to 0.0001, the experiment with a IR transparent container should be “easy” especially when you have billions of dollars to construct the IR transparent container.”
An “Al Gore” type experiment, even if done correctly, would demonstrate only the effect of CO2. Most of the predicted CAGW warming, however, is from hypothetical temperature-related positive feedbacks, which would require a much more complex experimental apparatus simulating the entire land/ocean/atmosphere system to test. We actually have such an apparatus, but we can’t control it and are only recently getting reasonably good measurements from it. 🙂
Gary Hladik says:
June 27, 2012 at 1:55 pm
An “Al Gore” type experiment, even if done correctly, would demonstrate only the effect of CO2. Most of the predicted CAGW warming, however, is from hypothetical temperature-related positive feedbacks,
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May I humbly assume that a zero effect of CO2 would have also zero temperature-related positive feedbacks?
Gary, you are not really going to talk about feedbacks of an unproven effect, are you?
davidmhoffer says:
June 27, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Gail Combs;
The experiment you seek has been done:
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Thanks, I realize we are talking a complex situation with several different gases with different absorption spectra etc but I had hoped the simple experiment at least had been done. It is a lot easier for people to understand. “Collecting data from the real world and analyzing it is just as scientifically valid as what Heinz Hug did….” I realize that also but I consider it a different step that is open to a lot more interpretation since it is “messier” Confounding factors and all that.
Gary Hladik says:
June 27, 2012 at 1:55 pm
…..An “Al Gore” type experiment, even if done correctly, would demonstrate only the effect of CO2…..
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I am well aware of that. However if that first step has not been demonstrated then you are only talking theoretical physics, much of which is over the heads of most people. Also if the “Al GOre” type experiment is done and shows nothing that can be measures then it kills the “Catastrophic” I do not care how much hypothetical temperature-related positive feedbacks they throw in. If you can turn the crank on that old Model T the rest of the engine isn’t going to run.
@davidmhoffer: please rest assured that I never have, and never in future will, read either of the works you suggest – Sun Tzu‘s (well BCE) work, or Adolf Hitler’s 1930’s ravings from his then prison cell.
I am also quite content on this basis to let the rest of your last posting speak for itself, without further comment from me.