
Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University, commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely. – Anthony
Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:
The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.
This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?
For shame.
Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.
By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.
Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.
The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!
Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.
There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.
Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.
This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.
The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.
These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.
The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
In particular, I quote:
For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a
friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.
One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.
I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government
advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether
drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it
would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a
result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re
being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.
Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?
And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!
Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.
Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.
For shame.
Bryan says:
June 26, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Vince Causey says
” I know, I know, There will always be those who declare the greenhouse effect does not exist”
The greenhouse theory takes many forms.
The usual one presented in Climate Science textbooks has a magnitude of 33K.
This is achieved (so they say) by radiating slabs in the atmosphere.
Greenhouse gases are said to achieve this.
…….and that’s about it!!!!
I don’t think many sceptics would be happy to sign up to such a feeble conjecture.
This does not mean that they are any less familiar with radiative physics than greenhouse theory enthusiasts.
====
What a bad joke, all these well educated scientists claiming the Greenhouse Effect exists and none will provide any science detail to back this up..
..instead it’s always the excuse that ‘it’s there and it’s well known and there have been tons and tons of experiments to prove it’, and they throw in old scientist names, but nothing ever directly fetched.
Instead they distract themselves from seeing this rather big elephant in the room by arguing about the detail of the stitching on the Emperor’s new clothes among themselves, and being really arrongantly rude to anyone who asks for actual real science.
Why is this so difficult to provide? Well, we who can see the whole thing is a scam and have stopped taking it seriously as science know they can’t fetch it because it doesn’t exist. If it did exist they would fetch it.
Where is the science proof that greenhouse gases raise the temperature of the Earth from -18°C it would be without them?
How can that possibly be too much to ask them to provide?
Of these greatly educated science teachers writers of textbooks..
Here, a standard description of the Greenhouse Effect: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Greenhouse_effect
If the experiments really existed they would be able to come back with the exact detail, all of it; of the instruments used, of how the experiments were carried out, all of the data – on all these gases.
Real scientists would expect nothing less than that.
Read Tyndall for an example of the meticulous recording of experiments..
And then they throw in Fourier and Arrenhius, again without ever fetching exactly what they did and said. Fourier said nothing of the kind, Arrhenius misunderstood him and went off into cuckoo land, and even he revised his nonsense after 1896 but was anyway shown to be talking jibberish by Wood.
That’s why they never fetch anything by these two, there’s nothing there to back up their claim, it doesn’t exist, it’s a typical con trick – to pretend there’s an authority backing their claim. But heck, the likes of Monckton and Brown can argue that argument from authority isn’t science when it comes to arguing against claiming it by those they disagree with, but when demands, and yes I said demands, that they stop this and come back with science proof for the Greenhouse Effect, at best we get silence.
And that’s the official version. Robert and anyone else deciding to change the “back to the Earth warming its surface” by their own method of a “thick insulating blanket of a trace gas trapping heat” are simply putting another unproven method in its place and they have no ‘authority’ to do this…
But anyway, all of you claiming that the Greenhouse Effect exists, if you can’t provide the detail by good proven science then you are obviously talking nonsense because you claim that the proven science exists and you won’t provide it.
Those still thinking rationally about this have no reason to think you know what you’re talking about – you’re the ones sticking your fingers in your ears and not listening. You’re deluding yourselves. If you can’t fetch the science for us it means you’re believing something without proof, you aren’t scientists.
Here’s the real history of Fourier and Arrhenius: http://greenhouse.geologist-1011.net/
The facts do not back up your fake claims for them.
And as for ‘visible light heating the Earth and no direct heat from the Sun heating it’, the fake fisics meme “shortwave in longwave out” – that is such a nonsensical idea it’s off the scale of irrational – but from what I’ve encountered in discussions here, I think until you try to prove that is possible for yourselves you won’t be able to appreciate just how impossible it is.
Every part of the AGW fisics is fake. You’re not meant to see through the con..
Myrrh says:
June 26, 2012 at 5:39 pm
And as for ‘visible light heating the Earth and no direct heat from the Sun heating it’, the fake fisics meme “shortwave in longwave out” – that is such a nonsensical idea it’s off the scale of irrational – but from what I’ve encountered in discussions here, I think until you try to prove that is possible for yourselves you won’t be able to appreciate just how impossible it is.
Every part of the AGW fisics is fake. You’re not meant to see through the con..
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Yes, I love it how the make the solar infrared disappear. Or they say this is beyond the absorption bands of the “greenhouse gases”. Again 2 conflicting versions.
Dear warmists, 2 important questions for you. 1. Do the “greenhouse gases” block some portion of the solar infrared thus contributing to cooling (and what is the proof)? 2. If yes, prove that the net effect is warming.
OK, dear warmists, the 2. is not really a question, but you know what I mean, and please (Robert!), do not beat around the bush.
Read Tyndall for an example of the meticulous recording of experiments..
It’s doubtless a mistake to even reply to this (you’re basically on my own X list at this point as I’m sure you are on many others’), but I cannot help but encourage you to try to make it into the last century before you actively enter any debate on the GHE. There is this list of stuff that came after Tyndall: Electrodynamics, relativity, statistical mechanics, quantum mechanics, quantum chemistry — and you really do need to know some of it before you can understand what is wrong with statements like: “visible light heating the earth and no direct heat from the Sun heating it”.
In the meantime — well, it’s just embarrassing.
I don’t give a damn about Fourier or Arrhenius or anybody who worked in the 19th or early 20th century as far as the GHE is concerned. The explanation for it is entirely quantum mechanical and based on perfectly well understood physics, directly supported by observations (and I’ve posted links on this thread to the figures that directly prove it on the basis of observation, so it is really pretty extraordinary that you and a few other people continue to clamor for “experimental evidence” for the GHE. What exactly, would you consider evidence if not matching TOA looking down and ground level looking up spectrographs?
Oh, right. Nothing. Your mind is already made — or should we say locked — up.
Seriously. If you want to understand it instead of just rant, I’d be happy to help you and explain it — again. But I suspect — based on fairly substantial empirical evidence at this point, that you don’t. You just want to rant and feel self-important in your ignorance, not work and learn. The physics of the GHE isn’t particularly difficult to understand and is neatly laid out in climate physics textbooks, but you do have to actually learn some post-Tyndall physics or try to deal with the vastly simplified descriptions people have tried to give you many times. You also have to try to learn it with an open mind, not with a mind sealed tight and buried in concrete.
Suggesting that “every part of the AGW fisics is fake” is a clear sign that conspiracy theory-itis has made off with your brain. It is akin to asserting that space aliens have taken over the government at a party and mean it, a clear sign to all listeners that it is time to walk away slowly “to refill your drink” and pretend that you didn’t hear it.
Accordingly, you necessarily conclude that in spite of any evidence to the contrary in terms of education or accomplishment or being an ex-boy scout and hence trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly and so on, I am either a corrupt and dishonest person who is a part of this conspiracy to defraud the world (and of the worst sort, a mole who pretends to oppose CAGW while really existing only to “convert” the last few truly “enlightened” hold-outs such as yourself) or that I am honest but very, very stupid, not to mention ignorant.
Simply embarrassing. Sigh.
rgb
Dr. Brown:
I’m honored, thank you.
Dear warmists, 2 important questions for you. 1. Do the “greenhouse gases” block some portion of the solar infrared thus contributing to cooling (and what is the proof)? 2. If yes, prove that the net effect is warming.
Sure, and of course not. Is this a trick question or just a stupid one?
Ah, I see. A stupid one.
rgb
Robert Brown says:
June 26, 2012 at 6:40 pm
… I’d be happy to help you and explain it — again.
================================================
No one on this thread has asked you or any other warmist for an explanation. At least 3 conflicting versions of “explanations” have already been known to the public.
What the warmists have been repeatedly asked for is a link to a real genuine falsifiable scientific experiment proving the CO2 in its usual concentration (ca 1 molecule from 3000) slowing down cooling or warming by 7 degrees (according to the AGW concept). We are waiting, Robert.
Robert Brown says:
June 26, 2012 at 6:51 pm
Dear warmists, 2 important questions for you. 1. Do the “greenhouse gases” block some portion of the solar infrared thus contributing to cooling (and what is the proof)? 2. If yes, prove that the net effect is warming.
Sure, and of course not.
========================================================
Robert, please, make an effort and understand the questions and answer this clearly.
Greg House,
Real evidence has been presented showing that CO2 has an insulating effect. This is a long thread, and I’m not going to search it out. And I don’t have an experiment, or the time and inclination to get into building one, but I give credence to real experts like Prof Richard Lindzen, and Dr Brown, and Steve McIntyre, and John Christy, and Roy Spencer, and Anthony Watts, and Ross McKitrick [and also Dr Miskolczi, who shows that rising CO2 on balance makes no temperature difference].
But radiative physics means something. It cannot be simply dismissed for no reason.
My view for several years has been that 2xCO2=1ºC, ±0.5ºC, based more on Lindzen’s papers than anything else. The more I read, however, the more I am inclined lately to accept the low end of that [SWAG] range.
Nobody knows for sure [thus the endless debates over the climate sensitivity number], but the real world doesn’t seem to be supporting very high sensitivity to CO2. At the very most, the theoretical high end could be ≈1.2ºC per doubling. And it would not surprise me terribly much if Misckolczi turns out to have the correct answer: 0.00ºC. So far, no one has falsified his paper.
What we do know, based on real world, verifiable evidence up to this point, is that the UN/IPCC’s sensitivity numbers are far too high. But then, their real job is to alarm the public, in order to redistribute our wealth into UN pockets:
“One must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore.”
~ Ottmar Edenhofer, Co-Chair, UN/IPCC, WG-3
Smokey says:
June 26, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Real evidence has been presented showing that CO2 has an insulating effect.
==========================================================
No. Only narratives, 3 conflicting warmists’ narratives.
Greg House,
I was largely agreeing with you. And I provided a very small, concise book title, which would have answered your thermodynamics questions. Instead, you argued about it even though you obviously never read it, or anything like it.
You’re arguing with everyone. Instead, I would suggest clicking on the Lindzen link I provided above, then on “CV”. Read, and learn. The head of MIT’s atmospheric sciences department knows something about the subject. He has more than 200 peer reviewed papers published. Dr Spencer also has a good website, available on the sidebar along with many other scientific skeptics’ sites. And maybe Dr Ferenc Miskolczi’s papers might interest you. But radiative physics is not meaningless, and Dr Brown makes a good case.
Smokey says:
June 26, 2012 at 8:50 pm
Greg House,…a very small, concise book title…the Lindzen link…Read, and learn. … knows something about the subject….papers……good website…many other scientific skeptics’ sites…papers…
=======================================================
Thank you, but like I said I am familiar with 3 conflicting narratives of the warmists’. Multiplying these narratives in papers and on web sites doesn’t change the quality.
The point is that what they refer to does not scientifically support their claims. That’s why the warmists have been asked to provide… you know… see above.
No, you’re not. I’ve offered you that a half dozen times. I doubt you’ve even looked at the evidence. It is called top of atmosphere spectrographs.
Here’s how the experiment works.
a) Take a planet with 390 or so ppm of CO_2, mixed with N2 and O2 and H2O and sundry other gases in small amounts. To facilitate the observation of differential heating and cooling, rotate it so that one can see the entire dynamical process of warming and cooling. Once a day should about do it.
Why look at that! We’ve got one handy! How convenient.
b) Arrange to illuminate it with a very hot object, one whose radiation power spectrum is nearly that of a black body with a peak in or near the visible part of the spectrum. It would help if that object were large, far away, massive enough to keep the planet in a) tethered gravitationally so it doesn’t go wandering off mid-experiment.
Doggone! Got one of those those, too!
c) Controls, controls. Gotta have a control. So, let’s place another object in about the same orbit is the first one in a) so it spends most of its time about the same distance from the hot object. The exact orbit isn’t important — a moon is OK. Lose the atmosphere — this one is the object without any greenhouse effect. But feel free to add an N2 plust O2 atmosphere if you like — I’ll leave that up to you. In my experiment I’ll leave it out.
Got it. Can see it right now from where I’m sitting. Strange, how all of this is coming together, isn’t it? Almost as if it has been done for decades and you have to deliberately blind yourself to the evidence, isn’t it?
Experimental procedure:
1) Turn on the hot object, start the planet orbiting it, with a spin as recommended above. Give the moon a kick so it orbits the planet and is illuminated with about the same intensity of radiation from the hot object. Wait a long time for them to come into some sort of dynamic “equilibrium”, although the effect we are looking for to prove of falsify the theory isn’t one that takes a huge amount of time to observe. Still, a steady state of sorts is what we are looking for, not a transient.
2) Measure the electromagnetic spectrum of the very hot object through a vacuum at the orbital radius of the planet and moon. Be careful — there’s a lot of quantum detail and we have high resolution instrments. Record it.
3) Measure the electromagnetic spectrum of the very hot object through the layer of atmosphere on the planet selected in a) above. That way we can get our first idea of how much that atmosphere attenuates the incoming light, per frequency, across the entire spectrum. At the moment we won’t worry about where the energy goes — it will take several steps to determine that, and it isn’t our primary concern. We can imagine that some is absorbed and some is reflected, and of course we have the full spectrum at the bottom and so we can determine to a great extent precisely what molecules are doing what.
Presuming, that is, that you will admit that we can use laboratory measurements of the absorption and emission spectra for O_2, N_2, H2O, and CO_2 (etc) separately in our analysis. Or should I start my description of this “experiment” with the entire series of experiments that validates modern physics from Maxwell’s equations on? The reply will get pretty long — pretty much eight or ten years long, about as long as a physics undergrad and grad education take — but that’s really what you need.
4) Measure the electromagnetic spectrum just over some specific, reasonably thermally homogeneous chunk of the ground — say, a big patch of featureless desert — pointing the spectroscope both up and down, at night. Do this at a variety of surface temperatures. Verify the rough correspondence between surface temperature, the full spectrum of radiation that is emitted, and the Stefan-Boltzmann blackbody equation Or, do this in the lab — there is nothing special about the “ground” versus any other warm body. But you don’t want to use prior knowledge, I can tell, so off to the lab with you! Why up?
5) Back up to the TOA. At the same time you make the measurements in 4), measure the electromagnetic spectrum being radiated away from a given (small) solid angle around your patch of ground where measurements 3) and 4) were made. If you doubt that those measurements are generalizable over the entire patch you can “see” from space, please feel free to use more thermometers and spectroscopes and cover the patch as tightly as you like in 3) and 4).
Now it is time to analyze our data. You can see the data if you follow the links posted above. You should carefully think about what results would falsify the hypothesis “there is a greenhouse effect”, and what results would tend to confirm it. For example, I personally would say that if the up-directed spectrum you measure in 4) and the spectrum you measure in 5) are strictly attenuated versions of each other, that would suggest that there is no GHE. OTOH, if there is a difference between two, especially if parts of the TOA curve are shifted systematically downward to fit decently on a cooler SB curve in wavelength bands corresponding to strong electromagnetic scattering by CO_2, that would tend to confirm it.
But we should make sure. Compare the missing radiation with what you measure from the ground looking up. If you see a pattern of radiation that is complementary to the “cold emission hole, that strongly confirms that the GHE is real. If you observe something else, it would make the GHE more implausible. Note that the two don’t have to precisely match, especially in this simple experiment — we just want to see if the GHE is egregiously false or likely true. Once you have established that, you can do all kinds of science to further strengthen or weaken your degree of belief and account for details in the process.
We’re still not done! Remember steps 2 and 3 above? We can integrate over the spectrum in 2 to obtain the “TOA insolation”, often called “the solar constant” although it is not. This is basically the mean intensity (magnitude of the time-averaged Poynting vector, integrated over all frequencies) of sunlight — sorry, light from our “hot object” — after passing through (say) 150 million kilometers of near vacuum. If we make some fairly straightforward (and falsifiable) assumptions collectively known as the “empirically validated laws of physics” about how the light is being emitted from that hot object and how it falls off with distance, we can transform that measurement into (for example) a direct measurement of the total power emitted by the sun. Cool, huh! We can go one further and use the S-B law, Wien’s Law, parallax, and our trusty spectroscope and using exactly the same physics construct a Hertzsprung-Russell diagram:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung%E2%80%93Russell_diagram
which we can then magically invert into a meter-stick with which to determine the distances to the stars! Way cooler!
Finally, we can similarly analyze the total power in 3 (and repeat steps 4 and 5 in the day) to determine how much of the energy budget is reflected back to space directly (from all mechanisms) versus how much is absorbed by the surface of the Earth as heat. Note well that this isn’t strictly necessary to validate or falsify the GHE, but it would be peachy (once we have validated it) to start to work out the requirements of detailed balance because the total integrated outbound radiation from the planet ultimately has to equal the total integrated inbound radiation, on average, and because there is a well-understood relationship between temperature and radiated energy (back to S-B) we can arrive at some eye-opening conclusions about how the Earth’s surface must warm to maintain equilibrium, all things being equal, after accounting for all of the radiation in complete integrated detail in all directions once we observe that outgoing radiation has the cold dip that validates the GHE in the first place. That is, we can prove that either the GHE warms the Earth relative to whatever temperature it might have without it or conservation of energy is egregiously violated!
And if you think the latter is going to happen, back to the lab with you!
OK, I have now done precisely what you, Greg, and you, Myrrh have asked. I have described in nauseating detail an actual experiment that can be done to verify of falsify the GHE. You can do this experiment personally — it just takes a few billion dollars and decades of work in physics and engineering and chemistry and computer science and so on by some of the brightest minds in the planet to make it work for you — or you can open the damn books and links I’ve provided and look at the actual TOA spectrograph with the IR hole in the CO_2 band at a colder emission temperature than radiation from the surface at surface temperatures and go “gee, damn, I was wrong, there really IS experimental confirmation of the GHE, it COULD have been falsified, but it was confirmed instead.”
If you actually manage to wrap your head around all of this and do it, look at the experimental evidence and finally understand why it unambiguously confirms the GHE, I won’t even ask for an apology for all of the time you’ve wasted on this or all the other WUWT threads (and heaven help us, other blogs where no doubt you do give CAGW doubters in general a bad name) where you have utterly wasted perfectly good electrons promoting “it doesn’t/can’t/won’t exist, can’t be experimentally observed, violates the (fill in the blank) law of thermodynamics”, or other arrant, arrogant, and embarrassing nonsense.
This is in Cabellero, neatly explained. It is in a WUWT thread I linked above. If you are too lazy to look there (not for the explanation, at the data, the spectrographs themselves) I could probably google up still other places where you can trace the spectrographs back to specific experiments, dates, times, humans, spacecraft.
But it shouldn’t be necessary. One look at the spectrographs with your head somewhere other than buried firmly in — the sand — should be quite sufficient. Clear your mind of everything else. Forget all of the crap explanations you’ve made up for why it cannot be so. Just look at the CO_2 hole! You can argue all day that it can’t be there, but it is. End. Of. Story.
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Dear warmists, 2 important questions for you. 1. Do the “greenhouse gases” block some portion of the solar infrared thus contributing to cooling (and what is the proof)? 2. If yes, prove that the net effect is warming.
Sure, and of course not.
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Robert, please, make an effort and understand the questions and answer this clearly.
An effort? Look at the spectrographs of sunlight at the Earth’s surface! What are you, a child? For the love of God, man! There are absorption holes all over the damn place, clearly labeled with greenhouse and non-greenhouse gases! Look at the TOA spectrographs of light coming up from the Earth’s surface! See the holes, sitting square on top of the measured CO_2 absorption band? Now use the physics, Luke, and balance the energy flow. That’s right, you can do it… there! You too can see that the GHE is net warming!
Why don’t you stop wasting everybody’s time with “deep insightful questions” that a glance at the evidence already answers!
Christ on a crutch. It really takes an effort to actually piss me off, but you are managing it. As for “effort” — I just spent an hour plus and some 6000 words of “effort” — again — trying to get you to look at the spectrographs. One goddamn glance at an actual graph of real data is worth ten million of your non-sequitor questions about whether or not “greenhouse gases” block some part of broad spectrum electromagnetic radiation. [sarc on] No, of course not, they’re just little chunks of matter made up of electronic charge and are perfectly transparent to electromagnetic radiation. Not. [sarc off]
Anthony, I’m sorry, I’m tired and my patience is wearing thin. If this is too harsh for your blog feel free to let me know or censor it.
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Robert Brown:
I’m unclear on what you mean by “the GHE.” You seem to explain what you mean when you say “the GHE is net warming!” I’m going to assume that by “net warming” you mean the increase in the equilibrium temperature from the associated increase in the logarithm of the CO2 concentration. In other words, you’re arguing that Earth’s climate has the property that is called the “equilibrium climate sensitivity” (TECS). TECS is the ratio of the increase in the equilibrium temperature to the increase in the logarithm of the CO2 concentration. That TECS has a constant numerical value, though we may be uncertain about what this value is, is an apparent consequence from your definition of “the GHE.”
Your apparent contention that TECS has a constant numerical value (e.g. 3 C per CO2 doubling) has the logical shortcoming that the equilibrium temperature is not observable. In view of the non-observability, this contention is not falsifiable thus lying outside science. Please respond.
Robert Brown says:
June 26, 2012 at 9:15 pm
Here’s how the experiment works. a) Take a planet with 390 or so ppm of CO_2, (1,000,000 words following…)
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Robert, you have already tried this trick on this thread. Just renaming things won’t help. Just calling your narrative “experiment” does not make it experiment.
So, nothing yet? Maybe you simply need more time or other warmists will come and help you, let us wait a little bit longer…
I returned to this thread fully expecting that it woud have petered out by now, but no…. it still carries on. I think I’d like to repeat several statements by Robert Brown that bear repeating:
1. It’s doubtless a mistake to even reply to this
2. In the meantime — well, it’s just embarrassing.
3. Simply embarrassing. Sigh.
4. Is this a trick question or just a stupid one?
5. Ah, I see. A stupid one.
I think that sums up the discourse nicely, though I think you left yourself open for rebuttal on the aliens taking over government issue.
rogerknights says:
June 26, 2012 at 5:17 pm
it’s certain that some of them will do so, and likely that most of them will. But, logically speaking, it’s not certain that all of them will.
Absolutely correct, logically speaking. But the ones who won’t are the folks who already refrain from using the term out of politeness, and (judging from my admittedly limited exposure) are distinctly in the minority in the CAGW camp.
One needs to avoid falling into the position of utterly demonizing the opposition.
It’s not “demonizing” to state a fact, and the fact is that the CAGW movement *needs* to paint skeptics as mentally and morally inferior in order to maintain the illusion sustaining all three legs of the tripod supporting it:
1. the Concerned — the footsoldiers who man the booths and kick in the small donations. Most are natural joiners and get a good dose of self-esteem from being part of the group, and won’t break ranks for fear of being labeled as Other (i.e., in the skeptic camp);
2. the Vested Interest Hierarchs — the authority figures who may or may not have honestly bought into CAGW, but who know which side of the political fence produces all that nice grant money or who are raking in the cash from their investments; and
3. the Agendists — the source of large individual or corporate contributions. This group couldn’t possibly care less about being demonized because their wealth and political connections either insulate them or make them untouchable media stars.
Of the three groups, the second is the most vulnerable, and they *won’t* ignore any opportunity (or method) to discredit a threat to their position on the gravy train.
rogerknights says: Rather, “denier” is used in the opposite sense: to tar the responsible skeptics with the lunacy of the lunatic fringe via guilt by (verbal) association (i.e., equivocation).
So what? As up-thread, I am a (UK) lawyer: it’s a feature of our profession that we are variously admired, envied, mocked, loathed (principally the latter two – especially when it’s time to pay the fees) by most who have dealings with us, and many more besides. Everyone has their settled opinion and is not slow to express it.
Viewed from outside the scientific world, isn’t there a danger that this is truly about amour propre – that at heart scientists believe they are knights in white shining lab-coats dispensing truth from Mount Olympus and should be respected as such – but mother nature (playing hardball, as ever) has posed a conundrum which has split the scientific world into bickering, name-calling, factions. For once, the scientists are encountering some of the mockery and heat (no pin intended!) that some of us endure daily – and are having a hard time with rationalising it.
But the name-calling issue is just detracting from important and exciting scientific work left to do before the science is (truly) settled. Once again, wouldn’t it be better just to ignore the flak and press on with the mission? The world is watching, and waiting …
Robert Brown,
Wow, two rant length comments in the time it took me to write six or seven sentences of sarc!
What’s rather odd is that in your anger, you came up with possibly the best essay/comment/explantion of the bunch. Very well done sir.
I on the other hand have given up and am now simply content to mock the silly ninnies. Sorta along the lines of you can lead a horse to books, but you can’t make him read. Or better still, there’s no point trying to teach a mule to read. It wastes your time and annoys the mule. Oh wait….in this case annoying the mule is actually deeply satisfying. I’ll come up with something else.
I think that sums up the discourse nicely, though I think you left yourself open for rebuttal on the aliens taking over government issue.
I also wasted a perfectly good Vicini joke — but in retrospect that was to be expected, in context.
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Robert Brown says:
June 26, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Look at the spectrographs of sunlight at the Earth’s surface!
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Spectrographs of sunlight at the Earth’s surface like many other things is not an experimental proof of any warming or reduced cooling.
Robert Brown;
One look at the spectrographs with your head somewhere other than buried firmly in — the sand — should be quite sufficient. Clear your mind of everything else. Forget all of the crap explanations you’ve made up for why it cannot be so. >>>>>
Their heads cannot be buried in the sand, else they would have sandy explanations. Given that they have crappy explanations, their heads must have been buried….. elsewhere.
OK, I’ll break down and ask what the Vicini reference is? Lost me on that one.
TimC;
Once again, wouldn’t it be better just to ignore the flak and press on with the mission?
>>>>>>
Several people have tried explaining the issues to you already. I suggest that you read two books:
Sun Tzu; The Art of War
Adolf Hitler; Mein Kampf
The lesson learned from these books, and from the impact they have had on history, is that in a multi-dimensional war, if you choose to defend only that dimension you deam to be important, you will be defeated on grounds that you chose to not even defend, handing the enemy a victory without ever having to fight you.
On 6/25 around 7 pm Greg said: I just hope, Robert, that you do not realise, what you have been doing. I’ll give you a very simple example of an “experiment” of the same quality as yours. I am going to prove, that my finger cools my room. So, I stretch my finger and touch a very small thing. The air in my room starts getting cooler. Conclusion: my finger cools the air.
Any problem? Yes? What do you mean by “you turned the air condition on”? OK, you are very clever. But imagine we had a normally intelligent person teleported, let’s say, from the 10th century into my room. He would certainly consider my conclusion correct, because it is so obvious and he has no idea about air conditioning.
In case you do not understand, I mean, to a scientific method belongs also proving, that the effect was not produced by other factors.
To which I replied:
Or I could reply, in the best of grace, “Truly, you have a dizzying intellect”, to which you can reply “Wait until I get going! Now, where was I?”…
(Wesley to Vicini, in the Princess Bride…:-)
Air conditioning. Teleportation. Mind reading dead 10th century humans. The scientific necessity of proving a negative (look out Darwin, here comes Intelligent Design!). Non-sequitors. Atmospheres made of electromagnetically decoupled dark matter. Every object that is colder than you are invisible (after all, we know that it is quite impossible for radiation to pass from a colder object like an ice cube to a warmer one like your retina). Tyndall, in 1859: the seal of the physicsts.
And you thought I was kidding when I talked about space aliens bombarding the Earth with Dark Energy from the Moon to cause warming, and then taking over the government.
They impersonate normal humans. Al Gore, for example, was actually abducted in a UFO while taking a particularly potent bong hit way back in the 70’s, and the thing standing in for him now wears a mask to cover up its beard-tentacles. In Donald Trump’s case, the mask is slipping. And G. W. Bush — a simian-like arborian from Arcturus, I have it on very good authority (the real one was abducted, strangely enough, while taking a particularly potent bong hit back in the 70’s).
Is there really any doubt about what Greg and Myrrh and LazyTeenager really are? The commas in the sentences above are a dead giveaway.
As you said, fingers in ears: La-la-la-la… I can’t HEAR you… Sancho! My tinfoil hat!
Now, where did I put that iocaine powder…
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To the readers who are looking forward to any warmist eventually presenting a real genuine falsifiable scientific experiment proving that CO2 does warm by 7 degrees: the chances are not really good. It is not just this thread indicating it, there is another strong indication that such an experimental proof will never come, because they do not have any. And the reason they do not have any can probably only be that their claim is false.
This is the indication: http://wattsupwiththat.com/climate-fail-files/gore-and-bill-nye-fail-at-doing-a-simple-co2-experiment/ . Al Gore would have never presented such a fake, if it was possible to present a genuine one. They shot themselves in the foot.
In case you never heard of this debacle, blame the corrupt press who did not tell you.
Greg House:
It would be impossible for a warmist (or anyone else) to present a falsifiable claim of 7 degrees of warming from a given increase in the CO2 concentration. This is true because: a) the “7 degrees” is the numerical value of an equilibrium tempeature and b) an equilibrium temperature is not an observable feature of the real world.
A science of climate has to make claims about the numerical values of one or more observables. Currently, we don’t have such a science.
Spectrographs of sunlight at the Earth’s surface like many other things is not an experimental proof of any warming or reduced cooling.
If you’ve never learned the rudiments of physics and logical and mathematical reasoning, this is doubtless true.
Other people, on the other hand, use things like the Law of Conservation of Energy, Poynting’s Theorem, Maxwell’s Equations, and their fingers and toes to analyze those spectra and make statements like either a) the surface warms (given the spectra and energy conservation) or b) laws of nature are egregiously violated or c) we are really living in The Matrix and the computer has a bug in it, and choose a), because they are sane and rational and not completely ignorant. But sadly, you are suffering from the delusion that it is 1859 and you are trapped in an asylum with Tyndall, and refuse to move through the completely open intellectual door even two lousy years forward to Maxwell, let alone to the 20th century and spectroscopy.
No proof for you!
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