A Matter of Some Gravity

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”

So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.

The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is

Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4

where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.

This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)

Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun  with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.

Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.

On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?

Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.

The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:

1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.

2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.

In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:

• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.

• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.

• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.

• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

 OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.

I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.

So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?

But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.

I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.

The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.

So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.

But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

Q.E.D.

Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:

… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.

Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.

And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.

But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …

TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.

w.

NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.

Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.

NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.

But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.

NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:

Water, 0.96

Fresh snow, 0.99

Dry sand, 0.95

Wet sand, 0.96

Forest, deciduous, 0.95

Forest, conifer, 0.97

Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94

and so on down to things like:

Mouse fur, 0.94

Glass, 0.94

You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.

I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …

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kiwistonewall
January 14, 2012 12:39 am

A slight correction to make your statements work within the laws of Thermodynamics:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
At Night there is a net radiation by the atmosphere back to the surface.
(During the day, there is no heating, only a slowing of heat loss, as net radiation is outward)
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer at night than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
So the effect is that the night time temperature is higher and the day time temperature is cooler (due to the thermal mass of the air & oceans)
However, there is the same contradiction with the greenhouse effect.
Because there is ALWAYS more energy radiating from GHG out to space, (since emissions go equally in all directions, and the geometry of a sphere means just more than 50% is outward) this means that IF the planet gets MORE energy to the surface from GHG then the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
It matters not how many “layers” of GHG you have, Once equilibrium is established, more than half is always heading to space. The real world atmosphere is turbulent, but that standard explanation is always worked out on a static atmosphere.
It seems to me that there is a maximum effect, and once this is reached, there can be no further warming. Everyone seems to forget that classic climate theory (from textbooks prior to 1988) was that the atmosphere warms by convection and cools by radiation.

Hoser
January 14, 2012 12:44 am

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation.
And the air.
GHGs just absorb in certain bands of outgoing IR and make the air warmer. That makes the entire atmosphere radiate more, half the time right back down to the surface. An atmosphere sans GHG would still radiate, just less.
How would the atmosphere get warm without GHGs? Conduction and convection as others have mentioned.
The assumption made in the post is ALL of the energy absorbed during the day is immediately radiated back to space, and so we seem to have trouble explaining a higher than expected temperature.
If a significant fraction of the solar energy is absorbed, it may take time for it to be radiated away. Consequently, the temperature will rise until balance occurs. When the Earth is significantly warmer the total output matches the total input, accounting for delayed release of input energy. One mechanism for absorption of solar energy that cannot be immediately re-radiated is ocean mixing. Only the surface will radiate to space. The solid surface of Earth can act in the same way – as an energy sponge. The delay in reradiation must raise the temperature of the Earth to achieve balance.
To illustrate: Try walking barefoot in a freshly paved parking lot in Florida some summer.

Steve C
January 14, 2012 12:45 am

Willis, surely your transparent atmosphere is, like the standard GHE model, an unphysical and unhelpful concept, since in reality all gases will have some absorptive / emissive characteristics. If that were not so then, by definition, adding as much of this ‘atmosphere’ as you like cannot have any influence on the purely radiative balance between your planet’s surface and its shell of mini-suns, as you say. As soon as you concede that the added atmosphere can absorb and emit on its own account, though, you have an ‘atmosphere effect’, temperature gradients in that atmosphere, convection and so on, whereupon yes, the planet’s surface will warm as the effective radiating level moves upwards and away from the planet’s surface.
It seems to me that the basic error (in the Earth case, at anyrate) is in the assumption that the planetary surface receives a quarter of the available power coming in from the sun, continually. It doesn’t. I’m much more impressed by Postma’s thermodynamic analysis (‘Understanding the Atmosphere Effect’, ‘The Model Atmosphere’ etc.) in which he shows that consideration of a dynamic system, with a rotating planet orbiting a single sun, renders the introduction of a ‘greenhouse effect’ unnecessary, the (considerably) higher equilibrium temperature at the subsolar point plus the insulation of the atmosphere giving quite enough increase in average energy input and surface temperature to account for what we observe.
If I’m making a cup of tea, I need one cup of boiling water. Two cups of lukewarm water – even if the amount of heat energy is identical – just don’t do the work! It’s not only how much energy there is in the system, it’s also how it’s distributed.
As ever, a thought-provoking post. And now I know to keep an eye open for a copy of that Geiger book.

Jerker Andersson
January 14, 2012 12:51 am

“If there are no GHGs in the atmosphere, the atmosphere will not and cannot radiate energy.”
As far as I know all atoms above 0K raidate IR, even molecules in our atmosphere. Otherwise the air can be heated to any temperature and it will never cool until it gets into physical contact with cooler molecules i.e heat transfer via conduction.

Peter Czerna
January 14, 2012 12:53 am

@willis/crosspatch
Of course a gas can radiate energy, whether it has GHGs or not. If conduction/convection increases its temperature, it radiates more.
Why should gases not obey thermodynamic principles?

January 14, 2012 12:55 am

Why everybody here imitates Mr. Eschenbach, using hyphen in “Stefan-Boltzmann temperature”, “Stefan-Boltzmann equation”, and “Stefan-Boltzmann constant” expressions, as if “Stefan” and “Boltzmann” were two people who developed this formula?
Stefan Boltzmann was one man, his last name was Boltzmann, his first man was Stefan, and the correct way to use his name is “Boltzmann’s equation” or “Stefan Boltzmann’s equation” (if you insist for some reason on repeating his first name all the time) but not “Stefan-Boltzmann equation.” The “S-B” abbreviation, in this context, is incorrect.
Boltzmann killed himself, because the “consensus” among most of the respected, published and peer-reviewed “scientists” of his time was that Boltzmann was nuts. Since then, however, his classic formula has become a mandatory part of any high-school course of physics, and it is not clear to me, why discussing it here is of any interest, and why one has to be “mathematically inclined” to read one of the simplest formulas ever.
P.S. By the way, all gases and gas mixtures radiate heat, not only those containing the ubiquitous “green-house gases.” An atmosphere containing no water vapor or other “GHG” gases would warm up under sunlight and radiate heat, because light dissipates, to some extent, in an atmosphere consisting of any gas, however transparent.

Mike Edwards
January 14, 2012 1:00 am

Willis,
Thank you for showing the incorrectness of the Nikolov and Zeller idea in such a simple and straightforward way.
Meanwhile Robert G Brown’s article on WUWT showed some of the true complexity of calculating the surface temperature distribution of the Earth – no N&Z in sight!

Edim
January 14, 2012 1:01 am

“How would Earth’s surface temperature change if atmospheric pressure were doubled, that is, increased to 2 atm by adding more N2 (and nothing else)?”
Well, according to the GHG hypothesis, that would reduce the mixing ratio of atmospheric CO2 and less heat would be trapped. The surface would cool.
In reality 2 atm would change a lot of things, evaporation, convection, density of the atmosphere…

Alan Wilkinson
January 14, 2012 1:08 am

Since both N2 and O2 absorb and radiate in the UV region there is no such thing as a transparent non-GHC atmosphere. This is a good account of gas radiation: http://www.heliosat3.de/e-learning/remote-sensing/Lec7.pdf

daniel kaplan
January 14, 2012 1:10 am

1) Earth/Atmosphere is a thermal machine (details unimportant)
2) Mechanical Energies are Earth rotational energy + Earth/Moon Potential Energy (Tides)+…….+Atmospheric energies (small)
3) Energy imbalance goes into tiny change of earth rotation speed or ……

Julian Braggins
January 14, 2012 1:14 am

Gravity, plus the Sun, water vapor, rain, runs all the hydro power. The atmosphere is a little more diffuse, and harder to extract work from, but it does heat up as it falls down.
By the way, O2 and N2 seem to have significant IR absorption bands, considering their proportion of the atmosphere, was your hypothetical atmosphere also hypothetical Willis?

January 14, 2012 1:21 am

Alexander Feht says: January 14, 2012 at 12:55 am
“Stefan Boltzmann was one man, his last name was Boltzmann, his first man was Stefan”

No, Boltzmann’s name was Ludwig. Joseph Stefan was his predecessor as Professor of Theoretical Physics at the University of Vienna.
He was a highly respected scientist in his lifetime, and had been appointed to the most eminent scientific chair in the Austrian Empire. He had been received by the Emperor, shortly before his death.

kiwistonewall
January 14, 2012 1:24 am

To correct some misunderstanding:
Yes, all gases will emit and absorb energy, but for non GH gases the effect is small over thermal ranges (what we associate with earth temperature ranges). For Oxygen and Nitrogen, only collisions provide the dipoles needed for thermal absorption and emission. This is significant only at high pressure and temperature (where there are more collisions). Since the atmosphere is mostly non GH gases, even though this effect is small, it is by no means zero, but it is maybe less than 1% of that of the GH gases. Thermodynamics means that heated gases must cool to that of their surroundings. They do this by mainly by expanding, which is the cause of convection.

Baa Humbug
January 14, 2012 1:26 am

Hello again Willis
We didn’t quite finish our discussion at the Moon/Mistress thread so I’d like to continue it here if you’re willing.
The key concept to keep in mind is that warming by conduction (between a solid surface and a gas) is always more efficient than cooling by conduction.
This is because a warming parcel of air rises and expands, is replaced by a cooler parcel of air which is also warmed by the surface and the cycles goes on so long as the surface is warmed by insolation.

First floor, giftware

Cooling by conduction is not quite the exact opposite of warming by conduction due to the phenomenon of temperature inversion.
When a warm parcel of air conducts with a cooler surface, the air cools, the surface radiates away the newly attained warmth. However, the parcel of air higher up cannot make its way down because it is blocked by the now cooler parcel of air underneath.
Though conduction WITHIN the molecules of air will move some warmth to the adjacent lower and cooler molecules, this process is very slow and inefficient, otherwise temperature inversions wouldn’t happen.

Second floor, ladies wear

Temperature inversions on Earth are most common near coastal upwelling zones (note the famous Californian smogs of the 70’s and 80’s) where cold upwelling water cools the air immediately above which prevents the air higher up from descending because it is now warmer than the air below.
They are also very common at the poles especially in winter where warmer air from lower lattitudes conducts with the frigid surface forming a barrier which stops the warmer air above from descending.

third floor, menswear

Therefore, with the above in mind, a previously bare rock planet, injected with a non-GHG atmosphere will first and foremost have its outgoing longwave reduced because of conduction.
Due to the fact that the equator of a sphere is the warmest, this is where the most conduction will occur. The atmosphere will transport this equatorial heat towards the higher lattitudes.
This conduction cannot cease until the atmosphere attains the same temperature as the surface at the equator.
In all this time, the outgoing longwave from the surface will be lower than that of a blackbody, i.e. the system as a whole (surface plus atmosphere) is accumulating heat.

fourth floor, manchester

The process will come to equilibrium when the atmosphere (at all lattitudes) reaches the same temperature as the surface AT THE EQUATOR (or near enough so that convection is a tiny trickle)
Therefore, the AVERAGE temperature of the ATMOSPHERE will be higher than the AVERAGE temperature of the SURFACE, i.e. higher than the SB temperature.
Theoretically, because of the limited conduction from a warm atmosphere to the cold polar surface will warm the surface by a small amount (temperature inversion prevents continual heat transfer by conduction) the polar surface will be warmer than it was when without an atmosphere.
By the same token, the equator will be cooler than they were when without an atmosphere.
Put simply, a planet with a non-GHG atmosphere would be dominated by temperature inversions.

fifth floor, home made pies

This is where I humbly get off
p.s. my last response at the Moon/Mistress thread is at http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/08/the-moon-is-a-cold-mistress/#comment-860181
my best regards as always.
We need more Willisses in Science. He makes us think

Hail Core
January 14, 2012 1:40 am

I have talked with one engineer who is working infrared warmer manufacturer company. They have tried to warm air with infrared warmer and they have never managed to do so. They have even set tens of radiators to work at same time (hundreds kilowatts), no measurable results in air temperature. So the claims that infrared radiation warms atmosphere can’t be correct, so the main question is, what is absorption when you deal with gases (or air). How gases can backradiate anything if you can’t increase it’s temperature with radiation? If you have dust, water or other tiny particles in air, then radiation can warm these a little bit. They don’t add energy only transfers the original energy, so these can’t warm (add energy that increases temperature) anything cause they are not energy sources.

January 14, 2012 1:45 am

Alexander Feht says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:55 am
Why everybody here imitates Mr. Eschenbach, using hyphen in “Stefan-Boltzmann temperature”, “Stefan-Boltzmann equation”, and “Stefan-Boltzmann constant” expressions, as if “Stefan” and “Boltzmann” were two people who developed this formula?
Stefan Boltzmann was one man, his last name was Boltzmann, his first man was Stefan

Come on. Jožef Štefan was a full professor at the University of Vienna, he has discovered (and published) that energy flux of black body radiation is proportional to T⁴ in 1879 (based on measurements of French physicists Dulong and Petit). Ludwig Boltzmann was his student, he earned his PhD under his supervision in 1866 (the same year prof. Štefan became Director of the Physical Institute) and has extended Štefan’s results in 1884 to grey body radiation (at that time he was professor of Experimental Physics at the University of Graz). Also, Boltzmann’s beard was much thicker, therefore we are most definitely talking about two separate persons.
It is not a shame to be ignorant, but it is to pretend to know.

Patrick Davis
January 14, 2012 1:55 am

I asked an alarmist a very simple question recently. What emites/gives off IR, a block of ice, a bottle of water or a pot of boiling water? He (I assume so based on name) answered water vapour. He could not grasp the fact that ice emits IR. And then accused me of asking him a “trick” question!! This is the level of scientific stupidity anyone equiped with even a basic knowledge physics has to deal with in this “debate”.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 1:57 am

Apologies for the long comment, there’s quite a lot to deal with here.
Nikolov and Zeller’s extended conference poster ‘The Unified Theory of Climate’ was originally posted at the Talkshop a day before it was posted here at WUWT. On my website Willis says of it:
” I find the work of Nikolov and Jelbring to be laughable. I cannot even understand Nikolov. I invited him to state the core of his theory in a few sentences, since his writing is unintelligible….. He talks about atmospheric sponges and bowls, I can’t make sense of it…..As a result, I can’t tell if Nikolov’s theory violates the laws of thermodynamics.”
I ran a word search on the text but could not find any references to “atmospheric sponges and bowls”. Willis often complains that people argue against what they think he said rather than directly quoting him. I think he should follow his own advice and extend the same courtesy to others.
I also republished Hans Jelbring’s 2003 E&E paper ‘The Greenhouse Effect as a function of atmospheric Mass’ on which Hans Jelbring was kind enough to engage with Talkshop contributors.
Willis didn’t place any comment on that thread but said elsewhere on my website:
“Here’s the short proof, by contradiction. Jelbring proposes that a perfectly transparent, GHG-free atmosphere will raise the temperature of a planet’s surface well above the S-B temperature obtained from the average impinging solar radiation. (This is the situation of the Earth, for example.)
But if that is so, and the surface is somehow warmed above the S-B temperature, and the atmosphere is transparent, then the surface must radiate more energy to space than it is receiving, which is clearly impossible. Q. E. D…..I said the same thing to his face—his theory breaks the laws of thermodynamics.”

Once again Wiillis is doing what he tells other people not to do; arguing about what he thinks Dr Jelbring said instead of quoting him: Here is a brief excerpt from the beginning of section 2.1 where Hans Jelbring sets up the definitions for the model Earth in his 2003 paper. It is sufficient to dismiss Willis’ ‘proof’:
“A simplified model of Earth will be considered. The model planet does not rotate. It
neither receives solar radiation nor emits infrared radiation into space.”

Hans Jelbring tells me he has never met Willis face to face. To help resolve this apparent contradiction Willis could tell us when and where he
“said the same thing to his face—his theory breaks the laws of thermodynamics.”
Perhaps Willis is speaking figuratively, and is referring to an interaction with Hans Jelbring on the old CS email list? Before banning himself from the Talkshop because I ‘banned Joel Shore’ Willis should have engaged directly with Hans Jelbring on the same page where the entire E&E paper is published. That would have been the more scientific (and courteous) thing to do in my opinion.
Willis complains that I am preventing Joel Shore from expressing his scientific beliefs. This is incorrect. I won’t let Joel engage in the various very active and nicely undisrupted threads we have running at the moment but instead offered him a guest post where he could set out his scientific position formally on a thread of his own. It’s a strange kind of censorship which offers the ‘victim’ the microphone and points the way to the stage. According to Willis:
“Joel may have a hundred reasons not to want to invest the time and effort in a guest post.”
Joel himself says:
“I’m not particularly interested in doing a guest post. I have my hands full just trying to respond to all the misguided people over at WUWT and, with classes starting again tomorrow, I won’t be able to allow this time sink to continue for too much longer.”
Considering the much bigger loudhailer Joel has here at the biggest climate site in the world, it’s understandable why he would think it more important to spend his time here rather than on a website which gets around 1/20 of the traffic WUWT does.
The benefit to the Talkshop is that it enables its contributors to continue calmly discussing the merits and demerits of the properly set out scientific positions in the papers kindly provided by
Nikolov and Zeller
Hans Jelbring
Gerlich and Tscheuschner
R.P Sheehan
Johann Josef Loschmidt
Coombs and Laue
Roman et al.
Velasco et al.
William Gilbert
and
Dean Brooks
Cheers
TB.
[SNIP: No, there’s not a lot to deal with here, Roger, you have your blog for that. As I clearly requested above, we are dealing with two things:
• Your contribution of an elevator speech explaining Nikolov/Jelbrings work. Since you have not given one, I assume you don’t understand them.
• Your demonstration that my proof is wrong.
As a result, I have snipped your complaints about me and what I have done and what I understand or don’t understand. You can whine about that with your friends on your own website. Here, we’re discussing a couple very particular scientific questions. Come back if and when you are willing to give us your elevator speech or show my proof is wrong.
Sadly, but firmly,
w.]

[NOTE: Tallbloke’s post has been restored in its full glory. -w.]

January 14, 2012 1:57 am

No gas is transparent to all radiation – even if it is transparent to infrared, it will absorb ultraviolet, x-rays, something, and be heated by them..
So the true receiving area, even for a planet with a perfect GHG free atmosphere, is the disk section of surface + atmosphere.
And I put it to you that the resulting lapse rate could raise the surface temperature at least a little above the SB theoretical limit.

Rob R
January 14, 2012 2:07 am

Alexander Feht and others,
If all gasses are capable of absorbing radiant energy and if all gasses are capable of emitting at least a small amount of energy by radiation, then presumably all gasses are, to at least a small degree, greenhouse gasses. So any mixed atmospheric gas, for instance one composed exclusively of N2, O2 and Ar, will absorb some component of shortwave radiation and emit longwave radiation. Therefore there will be a greenhouse effect even if it is not large.
The question then would be whether these gasses are or are not capable of sublimation from a liquid or solid state at the Earths blackbody temperature. If the “gasses” are capable of existing in a gaseous phase at this temperature then there will be an atmospheric greenhouse effect even though it may be a small one. So logically the temperature of the gas at the earths surface must be greater than the blackbody temperature.
It would therefore seem that the greehouse effect attributable to the usual suspects (primarily H2O, CO2, O3, CH4) is less than 100% of the full greenhouse effect.
Could someone please explain where the above is incorrect?

kwik
January 14, 2012 2:08 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:37 am
“I will repeat it again. If there are no GHGs in the atmosphere, the atmosphere will not and cannot radiate energy. That’s the whole point. The only thing that can radiate is the surface. You keep claiming the atmosphere will radiate. It will not.”
I dont understand this . Are you saying I cannot heat Nitrogen?
If I put Nitrogen in a bottle. I lower the bottle in water that is constantly at 293 K. I leave it there for 50 years. Now the Nitrogen should be at 293K too.
I build a rocket with an insulation chamber.. I put the Nitrogen bottle inside this chamber. I launch the rocket into space. Via radiocontrol I manage to open the insulation chamber and release the nitrogen bottle into empty space.
The nitrogen bottle is now at 293K ? Empty space is…2-3K? Wouldnt the Nitrogen bottle ratiate energy?

January 14, 2012 2:14 am

Willis,
Thank you for your intellectual honesty: your critiques of the warmist theory is not blindfolding you when physical reality and valid physical laws have to be taken into account. So, for two reasons I appreciate the title that you gave to this post: a game of words and a call for seriousness.
Warming is not only due to GHG. Some of the Incoming solar radiation is absorbed by nitrogen, oxygen, CO2 and water in the UV/visible range, contributing to a temperature increase of the air mass.
In the atmosphere, there are enough components to ensure a long wave radiation according to SB law.: GHG (CO2, water, methane, nitrogen oxide), liquid water in form of clouds (cloudiness is about 60% of the Earth surface), and aerosols (liquids and solids).
Please have a look at this simple two layers model which is just assuming the existence of an atmosphere, regardless of its composition: http://climate.mr-int.ch/TwoLayersClimateModel.html
After having taken various feedback mechanisms the calculated surface temperature increase due to GHGs since the beginning of the industrial era is approx. 0.4°C, quite below values cited in most papers about warming, in particular by the IPCC. But some warming takes place thanks (or because of) GHGs. For any doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration a temperature increase of 0.5-0.6 °C can be expected.
A simple (simplistic?) model giving reasonable orders of magnitude, and satisfying the golbal heat balance requirement.

Phillip Bratby
January 14, 2012 2:18 am

Alexander Feht:
I don’t usually quote Wikipedia, But Ludwig Boltzmann’s superviser/tutor was Josef Stefan.
And I agree with other, all gases radiate EM if above 0K. It can’t be ignored if a “greenhouse gas”-free atmosphere is being hypothesised.