Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
ps: the correction I added was the energy flux H, which is the net flow of energy from the surface to the ghg atmosphere, which several readers mentioned as missing from the proof.
The solution relies on the inequality H < C. Specifically that
net energy flux from surface to ghg < net energy flux from ghg atmosphere to space.
Keeping mind that we are talking net energy flux, this assumption seems supportable. The ghg atmosphere must itself absorb energy from the sun, which it then radiates to space. Thus in equilibrium the net transfer from the atmosphere to space must be greater than the net transfer from the surface to the atmosphere.
If this inequality does not hold, then that would be an obvious starting point to attack the proof.
Derek Miller says:
January 14, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Again with this one. All matter doesn’t emit thermal radiation in the IR frequencies that correspond to the temperatures we’re discussing.
Also, Kirchhofs Law says that emissivity = absorptivity. Poor absorbers are poor emitters.
w.
Tim Folkerts, I don’t think you are correct for the conditions Willis specified (accepting Anna V’s point that they are unphysical at the limit). The adiabatic conditions are not satisfied at equilibrium so an isothermal condition is created and is neutral towards convection. With the atmosphere at the same temperature as the surface there are no sources of hot or cold spots to disturb it.
Dr Burns says:
January 14, 2012 at 8:20 pm
Dr. Burns, I’M NOT TRYING TO MODEL THE EARTH. Read the head post again. This is why I snip things like your last post, because they are so unbelievably distant from reality. I don’t care if I ignored cloud cover, I’m talking about a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT THAT HAS NO CLOUDS.
Read the freaking head post three or four times if you need to. It is a thought experiment designed to simplify a complex situation. If you come back on these same lines, you will get snipped.
w.
When I opened this thread there were already about 500 comments, so I haven’t read the bulk of them, and if someone else has already said what I’m about to say, I offer them my apologies.
Willis: I’m completely ignoring your “elevator speech” request, so feel free to just ignore this comment. For the rest of you, I will create a contradiction of the type that Willis appears to appreciate. Here’s what I have to say:
(1) I’ll assume that the “suddenly added atmosphere” is at a lower initial temperature than the surface of the planet. I will use the term “surface” to refer to the hard physical surface of the planet, and the term “air” to refer to the molecules of the atmosphere, regardless of what species these molecules might be. I will also ignore the possibility of radiation produced by scattering of any kind, and from the natural radiation of the atmosphere in the far IR region, even though both of these will necessarily occur.
(2) What happens just after the air is added is that the lowest thin layer will absorb energy from the surface by conduction, thus slightly reducing the temperature of the surface. That warmed thin layer of air will then conduct to the cooler air above it, will thus cool itself, and then be ready to accept re-heating by conduction from the surface. Under this logic, the process should then continue, propagating upward until the entire atmosphere has reached a single uniform temperature, namely the one possessed by the surface before any of this started.
(3) So we would seem to have an isothermal atmosphere, and things are back to the way they were at the start, except for a brief interlude during which the surface cooled a bit while heating the air, and then came back up to its original temperature. But there’s a problem with this scenario, namely that you can’t have an isothermal atmosphere in a gravitational field if it isn’t being heated (given energy) from the top.
Digression: We do have (approximately) such an isothermal situation in our real atmosphere, i.e. in the stratosphere, which has a fairly uniform temperature from the tropopause right up to the stratopause. Why does that occur? It’s because the top of the stratosphere is where the incoming UV starts to split up air molecules (notably diatomic oxygen, thus producing ozone). This, among other things, converts UV energy into thermal energy for whatever is up there. The effect gets reduced as you progress downward, so there is less heating in the mid-stratosphere than in the upper part, and by the time you get down to the tropopause the effect has run its course. The overall effect is that the decrease in temperature that “should” have continued upward from the tropopause has been negated by the absorption of incoming UV energy higher up, and the whole region is at a fairly uniform temperature (as long as the UV keeps coming).
(4) Back to the steady-state and supposedly isothermal atmosphere attained without the injection of extra energy at the top, the problem is that all of those molecules, which are supposed to have the same Kinetic Energy (same temperature), also now have gravitational Potential Energy. The system, however, is supposed to have reached a stable state where nothing is changing, so at each level the total energy of any thin layer should remain fixed. Another way to say this is that dU = 0.
(5) From basic thermodynamics, we have the relationship that dU = CpdT + gdh, so if dU is zero, then dT/dh = -g/Cp, which means that there is a lapse rate of the usual kind, and things get warmer as you go down. This implies that the new temperature of the air at the surface must be higher than the surface was at the beginning. I have no clue what the surface itself is doing, or what it’s temperature might be, but the AIR at the surface is warmer.
And that’s my take on the matter…
/dr.bill
willb says:
January 14, 2012 at 8:24 pm
willb, thanks for the elevator speech. First step looks good.
OK
Kinda, although it ignores the thermosphere that may not be significant.
Not sure what “through the pressure lapse rate” means, but OK.
OK
Whoa, whoa, whoa. The atmosphere is GHG-free. How does the released energy radiate anywhere, when the atmosphere has no GHGs, and as a result can’t radiate in the IR? I fear your explanation dies there …
Many thanks,
w.
Tim Folkerts says:
January 14, 2012 at 8:47 pm
I agree, although like you I do hate to bust Dr. Roy. The atmospheric lapse rate is a result of the kinetic/potential tradeoff for all molecules. It does not require bulk convective motion for the lapse rate to exist. As Tim says, at equilibrium the atmosphere will be isentropic, rather than isothermal.
w.
David says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:01 pm
I haven’t a clue what the radiational characteristics of high temperature nitrogen is, David. I wouldn’t be surprised if at that temperature it would radiate visible light, but I don’t know.
I do know that it doesn’t radiate in the IR. So if the gas were at say 30°C, no, the nitrogen wouldn’t be emitting any radiation, your hand and your thermometer wouldn’t register anything.
w.
Willis said “TimC, you are right. You don’t even have enough knowledge to ask intelligent questions. I don’t wish to be cruel, but in such a situation, just listen and learn, OK?”
A bit snippy, surely. I only have a science masters from long ago (my career was law), but I am still trying to learn – I thought that’s what this site was about …
From Wikipedia (I know, I know): “Thermal radiation is electromagnetic radiation generated by the thermal motion of charged particles in matter. All matter with a temperature greater than absolute zero emits thermal radiation.”
And: “A greenhouse gas (sometimes abbreviated GHG) is a gas in an atmosphere that absorbs and emits radiation within the thermal infrared range.”
Am I right (to ask a question directly this time, rather than offer a comment) that SB is concerned with total thermal (ie electromagnetic) radiation – whether it falls within the IR, visible or UV parts of the spectrum?
“The atmospheric temperature and pressure drop as altitude increases with the temperature ultimately dropping to that of deep space (~3K).”
Objects in space have a temperature, space itself does not. 3K is the background microwave radiation of space. A non-radiating object (gas) would maintain its temperature.
erl happ says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:04 pm
It’s great that you assert that. But you have provided no evidence for that. For that to be true, the dry adiabatic lapse rate would have to depend on density. But it doesn’t, it’s g / Cp, no density involved. So the temperature profile of the two atmospheres would be the same.
w.
David says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Sure.
w.
Willis,
I don’t think I agree with you here and am with Roy Spencer on this point. I think the the lapse rate does require convection. In an adiabatically bound column of gas in a gravitational field, which I think your model is, the temperature is constant throughout the column. The tradeoff between kinetic and potential energy has been discussed as the ‘Loschmidt effect’ and treated by the following authors:
Coombes, Ch. A. and Laue, H., 1985, Am. J. Phys, v53, 272-273
Velasco, S., Roman, F.L. and White, J.A., 1995, Eur. J. Phys. v17, 43-44
Qualitatively, since both the kinetic energy of the molecules and the number density of the molecules decreases with height, the average molecular kinetic energy does not necessarily decrease with height. The average molecular kinetic energy is the summation over all values of molecular energies divided by the number of molecules in any specific volume element. This average kinetic energy is constant throughout a column of gas in a gravitational field.
Interestingly there is an interesting discussion of this over at Tallblokes. I’m with Roy Spencer on this one. However, I’m also going to go back and give some more consideration to the lapse rate to see if I’ve missed something. Keep up the good work.
Bob Fernley-Jones says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:44 pm
Read the head post, Bob. And if you can’t figure out the answer to your question, don’t come back.
w.
Vergent says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Yes, and since that is the body under discussion, further comments about other bodies are off-topic.
w.
thepompousgit says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:16 pm
Indeed, git, my point exactly. That’s why I’ve asked for it, to see if anyone out there understood either the Jelbring or the N&Z theories. So far no one has given a clear precis of either one, so I must assume no one understands either one.
w.
anna v says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Thanks, Anna. First, certainly a gas can be transparent, why not? What is it that you think will stop a gas from being transparent?
Second, the fact that it is transparent has nothing to do with its heat capacity. A transparent gas has heat capacity, as does a transparent solid.
w.
Vince Causey says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:07 am
“…But, if the lower atmosphere is warmed by the gravity effect, there would indeed by a temperature gradient, with temperature declining as you go higher. At this point, it could be imagined that there is a TOA higher up radiating the same amount of energy that is received from the Sun.
But. . .the crucial point is, these molecules in the atmosphere cannot radiate. To do so would require molecules of N2 and O2 to emit photons. As far as I am aware, they do not. The only way energy can leave the Earth is by radiation, and only the surface can radiate…”
Some very good points made in your post, Vince, except all matter does in fact radiate…
“Radiation:
Thermal energy emitted by matter as a result of vibrational and rotational movements of molecules, atoms and electrons. The energy is transported by electromagnetic waves (or photons). Radiation requires no medium for its propagation, therefore, can take place also in vacuum. All matters emit radiation as long as they have a finite (greater than absolute zero) temperature.”
http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~shih/eml3015/lecture%20notes/radiation.htm
At higher temperatures matter emits more photons. Also the number of photons being emitted depends on the density of the matter. The temperature of the atmosphere will be the same as the surface of the planet at the boundary between the solid and gas. It is also obvious that the surface of the planet contributes significantly more photons as it is significantly denser than air (~3000 kg/m3 vv ~1.225 kg/m for air at sea level and at 15°C).
I know this isn’t the model Willis used but what is the outcome if the IR transparent atmosphere can radiate energy?
I’m interested in the limiting cases of trace GHG gas in the atmosphere, what happens in a IR opaques atmosphere and also a GHG free atmosphere that includes the water cycle but without the IR properties of the water vapour.
dr.bill says:
January 15, 2012 at 12:05 am
dr. bill, that’s an attempt to falsify my proof, so it is no problem.
However, statement (2) is where the train of thought gets derailed. The adiabatic lapse rate doesn’t magically disappear. It is still g / Cp, just like before. The molecules at the top of the atmosphere don’t magically convert their potential energy into kinetic energy. The atmosphere will not become isothermal. It will become isentropic.
w.
“I know this isn’t the model Willis used but what is the outcome if the IR transparent atmosphere can radiate energy?”
Just to add, I think this is the most interesting model in that it appears to act something like the earth’s atmosphere but can obviously be seen to let surface radiation directly into space, so doesn’t have any direct GHG absorption properties
TimC says:
January 15, 2012 at 12:24 am
If “you know, you know”, you should have listened to your inner Jiminy Cricket.
True.
The peak frequency of the S-B emission is dependent on the temperature. The hotter the object, the higher the frequency of the thermal radiation. At high enough temperatures, objects emit visible light. The S-B equation does cover all frequencies and refers to the total emission.
And yes, yes, you are right, and I was wrong, those were some intelligent questions. My apologies.
w.
Willis,
Do I have a simple “elevator explanation of the N&z hypothesis”? Yes. Are you getting it? No.
Not until you apologise to Roger and many others.
[SNIP: Well, I guess we’ll never hear your brilliant elevator speech if that’s the case. I gave my apology to roger above, that’s done, not sure why you bring it up again but that’s it. w.]
RobB says:
January 15, 2012 at 12:50 am
Can’t happen. Kirchhofs Law says that if it absorbs, it emits, and if it doesn’t absorb it doesn’t emit. Frequency dependent, before someone complains.
w.
Willis said
>>I don’t care if I ignored cloud cover, I’m talking about a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT THAT HAS NO CLOUDS.
Your model is quite pointless if you’re not trying to understand what goes on in the real world. A black solid sphere with a transparent atmosphere that has no convective circulation, no lapse rate, no clouds, no evaporation, no water and upon which only radiation acts, what do expect ?