Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
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Willis,
Your error is this. You said:
“But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.”
This is true for a body of uniform temperature.
What was needed for your “proof”:
“But when the average temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises…the surface radiation must rise.”
This is not true. consider the moon; cool the hot side, and then warm the cold side until the total radiation is equal. You will have warmed the cold side more because of the S-B equation. The average temperature will go up.
Vergent
last tag.
Willis Eschenbach @ur momisugly January 14, 7:02 pm
Quick test of the debate mechanisms here;
Willis, you wrote in part to Vergent:
So what the…. Is this sphere rotating at infinite rate whilst retaining an atmosphere, and how is perfect distribution of energy from equator to poles obtained? (have you cancelled the cosine law?)
sorry about interjecting facts into a political forum.
I modify my previous to say that the friction free atmospheric temperature can only exceed the average surface temperature if that surface is unevenly warmed which in the given model would not happen. In that model near surface atmospheric temperature would be increased with increased pressure (for a long time perhaps) time but would never exceed that of the surface (a perfectly dense atmosphere would approach the surface temperature)
erl happ :January 14, 2012 at 9:04 pm said:
Hypothetical planet (that is evenly irradiated) within the bounds of the hypothetical example
1. has five times the mass of the solid portion.
2. a second planet where the atmosphere has just 1% of the mass of the solid portion, the diameter of the sold portions in each case being similar.
So, both gather the same amount of radiation… Heat transfer to space is via radiation from the solid portion….the atmosphere’s in each case are heated by conduction, i.e. Molecular collision.
The atmospheres will not be equal in temperature from top to bottom. Temperature will relate to density.
…….the planet with the denser atmosphere will impart more energy to a thermometer (at 2 mtr above surface).
Add a greenhouse gas to the denser atmosphere.
It will become cooler and so will the surface of the planet because the surface that is emitting will be enlarged and there is still the same amount of energy to go round.
This from Earl Hap looks like an excellent model, and has an interesting result! –
I can’t fault his thinking – I look forward to more discussion on this.
Bob Fernley-Jones says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:44 pm
So what the…. Is this sphere rotating at infinite rate whilst retaining an atmosphere, and how is perfect distribution of energy from equator to poles obtained? (have you cancelled the cosine law?)
Yes he did cancel the cosine law, he did it by assuming a planet equally lit by thousands of small suns. Read the OP? Twice?
jorgekafkazar said @ur momisugly January 14, 2012 at 9:31 pm
I usually find that if I can’t distil my learning into elevator speech, it’s because I really don’t understand what I thought I learnt.
Willis,
My reading of Jelbring is that the surface is going to be warmer than absolute zero even if there is no solar input because the adiabatic lapse rate reigns supreme.
And since there is no such thing known as minus K an absolute zero surface cannot exist on a planet surface with more than a trifling atmosphere.
If indeed your model of radiative equilibrium at the surface mandates an absolute zero surface then the upper atmosphere of this planet would have to be measured in minus kelvin something that does not exist. So the concept of a radiative equilibrium in dark space is in conflict with other physical laws like the ideal gas law.
My apologies to Jelbring if I got that wrong.
And whats wrong with the radiative model?
I like the passive solar water heater system with collectors below the storage analogy.
The water warms in the collector coils and convects up the pipes into the storage tank and out of the bottom of the storage tank cooler water drops down into the coils to be warmed in a convection driven cycle. The collector coils are cooled by this process so they remain below radiative equilibrium until the entire system has warmed to that level.
And I am not talking about radiative equilibrium at the average blackbody temperature of a rotating planet but I would say that would be radiative equilibrium with the current radiation rate say around noon time if you managed to crank your efficiency up to 100% (which you can’t but you can get close).
You can only get close with very good insulation on the elevated water storage tank. But what is better insulated than a non-radiative atmosphere? The answer is nothing.
It can’t lose heat by conduction or radiation out the sides or the top. It can only lose heat out the bottom by conduction and common air is one of the best insulators around. You can’t build stuff this good at least you can’t economically at building scales. Maybe a polished vacuum bottle will rival it with the bottom closed.
At the end of the 24 hour cycle you will find the system to average considerably warmer than the average radiation would dictate because it is far less efficient at cooling than it is at warming.
The surface remains relatively cool even when the air is warm. Its hard to detect or measure this though as this coolness is confined to an infintessimally thin surface layer with strong temperature gradients immediately above and below that radiating surface.
So the sand feels hot on your foot because your foot is more conductive than the air and its drawing subsurface heat into your foot.
Then of course you have to enter latent heat of evaporation into this that is even more effective at transferring heat to the atmosphere in a one way route than conduction.
As a kid I lived in the desert. We used to carry those old canvas water bags and hang them off the radiator cap of our Model A. The evaporation kept the water relatively cool despite outdoor atmospheric (Stevenson screen height) temps in excess of a hundred degrees (F).
But even at that temp the atmosphere was not as hot as it would have been in the absence of convection.
With 1200 watts burning down through a cloudless desert sky the temperature was not the 225degF such a radiation level mandates at equilibrium, nor was the ground though we often joked about frying eggs on the pavement nobody could.
So what you have is a lot of daytime damping going on via conduction amplified by convection. At nighttime the damping of the cooling is far less.
Add greenhouse gases to the atmosphere and you probably change nothing as the additional heat it intercepts is offset by the heat it radiates. You no doubt will dispute that but I have to wonder why a ground molecule at 288K can radiate all its heat up and gas molecule cannot. I see this area as the borderline of AGW mumbo jumbo.
I think the completely passive solar water heating system that one can build for a few hundred bucks proves that a simple radiative equilibrium model in a GHG free atmosphere is pure BS.
[SNIP: gbaikie, either give us your elevator speech or falsify my model, your ramblings go nowhere. w.]
Except I’m far too lazy to do it, it would be interesting to count the number of posts that show evidence of the commenter having actually read the headpost, never mind understood it. It must be alarmingly small!
I occasionally drink with one of those lucky guys who gets to program a Cray with numerical simulations; of weather, rather than climate. When the talk gets to CAGW, there has on occasion been considerable bitterness between us, including said programmer being very dismissive of the level of scientific understanding of WUWT readers. In the past I have defended WUWT. Today I think it’s time to eat some crow. Mind you, he seems to have remarkably little grasp of basic Newtonian mechanics even though he has a Doctorate in astrophysics.
We all have our blind spots.
Dear Willis, I have not read the numerous comments, so somebody may have said the following already:
In your gedanken experiment:
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
A transparent to radiation atmosphere is a contradiction. For an atmosphere not to have a heat capacity it means that no matter ( atoms, molecules) is there . If there is matter then there exists a heat capacity. This matter will be radiating at some part of the electromagnetic spectrum with a modified SB law ( I think it is T^6 ), and the surface temperature will be ameliorated accordingly because of that. I am saying that the experiment is unphysical and cannot be used as proof.
I do not know the claims of the people you are arguing about.
( I will not digress into the oxymoron of talking of surface temperatures when all the fuss of AGW is made with temperatures measured at 2 meter height.)
Willis,
Your error is this. You said:
“But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.”
This is true for a body of uniform temperatureAND PRESSURE.
What was needed for your “proof”:
“But when the average temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises…the surface radiation must rise.”
This is not true. consider the moon; cool the hot side, and then warm the cold side until the total radiation is equal. You will have warmed the cold side more because of the S-B equation. The average temperature will go up.
Vergent
Whatt is amusing here is the time it took to achieve a logical conclusion.
“…while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon”
Actually it’s 20° cooler by day and 60° warmer by night, the net result being a surface that is 40° warmer than the S-B prediction. S-B applies to a surface and takes no account of heat absorbed and re-radiated by the subsurface, an observation made by other readers here.
http://www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com/pdf/Greenhouse_Effect_on_the_Moon.pdf
NASA have long known about this contradiction to the greenhouse theory, but presumably sat on it for sinister reasons that are all too familiar now.
http://climaterealists.com/?id=5783
“Willis, are you saying that if I am suspended in space, and a stream of 8,000 degrees N2 jets by me at say 10′ away, (nothing but the vacuum of space between me and the gas) I will feel nothing and my thermometer will register nothing, but if that stream of gas IS COMPOSED OF CO2 and jets past, again with 10′ of the vacuum of space separating me from the gas, I will feel immense heat from the radiating CO2, but none from the non radiating N2?”
A stream indicates they all going in one direction- they aren’t hot unless they hit something.
But even if they are hitting each other and not you, there is no heat to you.
Nice try, 20 down bye day and 60 plus by night, is a global temperature rise of 20C. This negates the premise of the argument.
[SNIP: please, no philosophical speculations on gravity. It’s a field. To move against it takes energy. To move with it gives you energy. No one knows why. w.]
Since Q= U + W (simply stated)
W= FD (simply stated)
W is a path function which means W1-2 can be more or less than W2-1 then I think you have stated the N&Z idea. Gravity causes work(compression) that adds energy to the atmosphere. Convection work reduces energy in the atmosphere and the two do not have to be equal.
PaulR @ur momisugly January 14, 9:59 pm
Sorry Paul, in a hurry, I overlooked that minor point of model definition. Me go and smack my wrist!
They are probably going to erase it but from 20% into this thread until 80% The authors of this thread were bitchen an moaning and smitten at each other.
U know what I mean.
Open question; Surface heat conducts to the non GHG atmosphere, Can non GHG molecues conduct heat to the surface?.
Yes. Any gas does this.
It doesn’t mean it will occur quickly.
Put anything cold into room at room temperature. The main way it could lose heat is thru conduction, reduce the losses in conduction and main way it warms is due to air molecules- convection.
Have cold jacket, hang from chair it should mostly warm from convection. If put near fire in fireplace, it would be largely from radiation. Radiation works good, if it’s 2000 F
I’d appreciate hearing back from anyone willing to wade through my post of
ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 6:30 pm
I cleared up the points Willis and a few others had and the result still comes out the same. The crux of my approach was to not try and calculate the specific amounts of the various energy fluxes. Rather to simply deal with them as inequalities, as it is much easier to say if one flux is larger than another, even if you can’t say by how much. This allows one to deal with the uncertainties and arrive at an answer that would otherwise be impossible to resolve.
Phil’s Dad says:
January 14, 2012 at 8:55 pm
“* By definition it can not radiate this heat away. It will however pass some of this heat back to the ground to restore equilibrium at the conductive layer. (Much more slowly than conductive warming as convection constantly interferes.)”
That part doesn’t sound right, heat is thermal energy in transit and energy will travel through the path of least resistance to restore equilibrium, less resistance equals shorter distance and shorter distance equals a more efficient transit of energy.
Principle of least action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_action
Willis,
494 responses and counting…wow!
Your redcutio ad absurbum argument is elegant and shows conclusively that in there can be no gravitational effect. End of as far as I’m concerned.
What is an interesting physics question is in your model what will the temperature distribution in the non-GHG atmosphere? I think it might be constant throughout with no convection and therefore no adiabatic lapse rate. The atmosphere in this model is effectively a gas column in an adiabatically bound state, heat conduction throughout the column will lead to an equilibrium of constant temperature distribution. I think Roy Spencer may have indicated this to be the case as well in his earlier comment.
Thank you for an elegant disproof of gravitational theorems.