Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
“I realize it’s not exact. The sun can make plant grow and one have forest fire at 2000 K.
But wrong with using this as approximation- generally the Sun is 390 K at earth distance?”
Or re-phrase this. The Sun has Planck curve [or it roughly follows Planck curve]. When objects at distance from the sun are radiating a similarly close approximation of a Planck curve. Is this not heat being radiated from one object to another?
Stephen Wilde says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:56 pm
I actually thought it unscientific, vague, and way off topic.
w.
Anton Eagle says:
January 14, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Sure. If there is no way for a gas to radiate energy, and it is isolated, it will stay at the same temperature indefinitely. I think N2 absorbs/emits very, very, very weakly in the IR, so it might cool over thousands of years, but basically indefinitely for practical purposes.
w.
Willis wrote:[SNIP: No, you cannot use my thread to drive traffic to your site. Nice try though. -.w]If this were Willis’ site, I would have no problem with this response to Tallbloke’s censorship of his views at Tallbloke’s Talkship Turnabout is fair play, as the saying goes. But this is NOT Willis’ personal blog and tit for tat is not a principled response to censorship. Two wrongs do not make a right, and if Willis is going to moderate comments on his own post, I think he has an obligation to be especially non-censorious.
Anthony’s usual policy is non-censorship of any on-topic civil (or moderately uncivil) discussion. There is nothing the least bit uncivil in Tallbloke posting a link to Hans Jelbring’s paper, and the fact that it is hosted at Talbloke’s website certainly does not make it uncivil.
I, for one, would like to have a link to Hans Jelbring’s paper available. For all who agree, Tallbloke’s posting is here:
[SNIP]
Will Willis censor me too? Nothing against Willis. Great post, by the way. But the censorship standards of Anthony’s blog should not be arbitrarily altered.
Entertaining thread, and interesting challenge.
OK, this first elevator speech may seem off topic at first, but it is relevant.
1. Shallow pool of water, transparent to visible, absorbs IR in 20 microns.
2. Heat comes in, hits bottom, radiated upwards.
3. Water absorbs and re-radiates up and down.
4. Energy radiated downwards absorbed by bottom. Warmer than it would be without water.
5. Every 20 micron thick layer does the same. Pond explodes.
There are other ways of doing this, I just happen to like this one.
[SNIP: I’m glad you like it, but since it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, I’ve snipped it. w.]
Berényi Péter says:
January 13, 2012 at 10:52 pm
How would Earth’s surface temperature change if atmospheric pressure were doubled, that is, increased to 2 atm by adding more N₂ (and nothing else)?
————-
There would be no change. If there was no GHG at all.
The only route for energy to escape the earth with no GHG present is by surface thermal IR emission.
The energy budget must balance, so solar energy in must equal thermal energy out.
The rate of surface thermal emission is determined by just one thing: it’s temperature.
So adding more non-IR gas makes no difference.
————–
If you did have some GHG to start off with it is not clear to me how things would turn out. The vertical extent of the atmosphere would be higher, the GHG would also extend to a higher altitude but have a lower partial pressure at those altitudes and so on. In other words there are a bunch of countervailing factors that would need to be considered. There might even be no change.
If as you claim the atmosphere is above the S-B temperature and the surface is still at S-B temperature,
Nope. The surface normal to the sun is at a higher temperature than the atmosphere and thus through entirely mechanical means the atmosphere is heated.
At night the temperature of the surface is lower than the atmosphere through radiation from the surface. So now the surface is at a lower temperature than the atmosphere. The atmosphere is convecting at the same time but lets keep it simple. The atmosphere now is mechanically transferring energy to the surface, raising its temperature and thus the surface radiates the heat.
Heat only flows from warmer to cooler surfaces and this is nothing more than conductive, mechanical heat flow between dissimilar materials, 100% within the laws of thermodynamics.
Willis sez:
That’s it? You’ve run out of real points
I didn’t run out of them so much as have them deleted by your censor scissors.
[BULL: I quoted your whole entire post, that was all of it, uncensored. w.]
Willis,
Some people simply can’t understand the concept. That is why I long ago gave up trying to explain.
Tallbloke,
Please get a grip man, you are embarrassing yourself. You are completely mistaken, and only digging an ever deeper hole. Take a deep breath and really think about Willis’ thought experiment; you owe it to yourself to figure this one out.
I skipped a few of the posts toward the end, but I figured out the “elevator speech” for the Jelbring Effect.
STEP 1: Instead of a greenhouse gas like CO2 at the top of the atmosphere (TOA) that radiates at some IR wavelengths and is transparent at other IR wavelengths, use a greenhouse gas at the TOA that radiates at ALL IR wavelengths (ie is “black” to IR = emissivty = 1).
Or in his words “[The model planet globe] (G) and the atmosphere (AT) are surrounded by a concentric, tight, black spherical shell. “
STEP 2: Apply all the standard physics to the rest of the analysis.
A quick read-through makes me think that his discussion of STEP 2 is right (or close to right). The lapse rate will cause the temperatures to increase below the TOA due to gravity, independent (to a considerable extent) of greenhouse gases. His “shell” at the TOA is taking the place of the GHGs at the TOA in terms of radiative effects.
The “Jelbring effect” is simply postulating something besides CO2 to radiate from the TOA. The shell wouldn’t have to be “black” (emissivity = 1), but the emissivity would have to be definitely greater than 0. Without the shell, the temperature enhancement would disappear (ie an atmosphere without a “lid” and without GHGs, which puts the TOA at ground level).
The “Jelbring effect” should actually work pretty well for Venus, where a permanent cloud layer acts as the “black shell”, since the cloud should be pretty close to “black” for IR light. The fact that the clouds are far from black for visible light would reduce the “Jelbring effect” but not eliminate it
————————————————————————
PS I have concluded that the ability to allow visible light thru is only a part of the “greenhouse effect”. Focusing too much on this aspect can obscure other important aspects, like lapse rate and IR within the atmosphere — but that would take an entire post to explain the interconnections (and some time beforehand to figure it out and figure out how to explain it). So his postulate that the surface is “black” to visible light and not just to IR light would make some difference, but would not prevent the surface from being warmer than the shell at the TOA.
heat will be constantly flowing 24/7 from the warmer atmosphere to the cooler surface … and that violates conservation of energy. -w.
Our assumption is that the atmosphere has zero radiative absorption. Solar radiation at 10,000 kelvin is striking the surface of the Earth at an energy of 1366 w/m2 heating that surface. That surface is now warmer than the atmosphere and energy flows through conduction to the atmosphere through mechanical means. In conduction heat ALWAYS flows from the warmer system to the cooler system.
At night the warmer atmosphere transfers energy through conduction to the ground where it is then radiated to space.
You are getting too hung up on radiative transfer when it is not the only means of exchanging energy.
try a cup of tea at 80C instead. Leave it 1 hour it cools to 15C.
This infers the body of liquid cools because it is emitting radiation
This is the point of contention:
The radiation from the body of liquid doesn’t simply go into the atmosphere and increase its temperature. It thermalises with its surrounding atmosphere (15C). The prior radiation is no longer a form of heat. Neither does that radiation go into the floor boards through gravity. It disappears as radiative energy.
There is a tendency to regard radiation/heat as a permanent factor, probably due to this erroneous S-Bolzmann equation, and its assumptions, which is a prize piece of thought experiment absurdity, yet stubbornly accepted as a gospel truth thrown from heaven.
Ed Fix says:
January 14, 2012 at 4:37 pm
THANK YOU, Ed. On this topic (celestial body temperature), the insistence here on an equivalence between temperature and power has really had me bugged. I’ve begun wondering why thermometers don’t come marked in units of watts/mtr^2. My intuition and the dim memories of my thermodynamics courses 35 years ago tell me it’s much more indirect than that. Thanks for a lucid explanation.
Dan
ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm
That’s why the surface can get hot, because some of the energy radiated by the surface is absorbed by the atmosphere so we’re not emitting to space more that we’re absorbing. As a result, the last step of your proof is incorrect.
To answer Willis more completely, here is the GHG model I described,
space <==A== surface <==B==> ghg ==C==> space
I believe Willis is saying that because the surface radiates both through A and B, this allows the surface temp in the GHG model to increase.
I agree with Willis, so lets replace the net flow B with H as follows to see what happens:
space <==A== surface ==H==> ghg ==C==> space
Flow C takes part of its energy from the flow from the surface to ghg (flow H), plus the net energy absorbed directly from the sun by the GHG that re-radiates as C. Thus we can say that:
H + net solar absorbed by GHG reradiated as C = C
Since net solar absorbed by GHG > 0, then we can say than in all cases with a GHG atmosphere, that:
(result a) H < C
Here is our other model, the non GHG atmosphere, that does not radiate:
space <==D== surface <==E==> no ghg ==F==> zero radiation to space
D + F = solar energy in = radiation out to space
However, since F = 0, this becomes
D + 0 = solar energy in = radiation out to space
and from above:
A + C = solar energy in = radiation out to space
Therefore we can say
A + C = D
and from (result a) above
D = A + C > A + H
therefore
D > A + H
Since D and (A+H) vary as 4th power of Temp
Temp(D) > Temp(A+H)
since
Temp(D) = surface temp of planet with non GHG atmosphere
Temp(A+H) = surface temp with GHG atmosphere
Therefore the surface will be hotter on a planet with a non radiant (non GHG) atmosphere.
QED
While I agree with Willis that the inclusion of H has allowed the surface temperature of the GHG surface to come closer to the surface temperature of the non GHG planet, the GHG planet still has a lower surface temperature.
Ed Fix: If no extra energy is imparted to the gas from the surface of the planet, the gas will eventually all settle to the bottom end of the tube, back at 0K. However, the gas’ temperature did rise, and EM energy was emitted. The planet doesn’t have any less gravity than it did before, so where did the energy come from? I don’t know. If you want to say that violates conservation of energy, I can’t dispute it. Maybe if we really knew what gravity is, we could answer the question.
The extra energy came from falling down the gravity well and stopping/colliding at the end of the fall. It is a transformation of potential energy in the form of the “altitude” of the gas particles into the kinetic energy of linear motion, then vibrational modes for IR. The gas will never make it to absolute zero even given infinite time because of starlight falling on the planet and gas.
Alec Rawls says:
January 14, 2012 at 4:51 pm
While this is not my site, it is my thread, and I said I would snip anything off-topic. Now I do that and you want to complain. Nor is this “turnabout” as you assume, if it were I would have banned Tallbloke as he has effectively banned me.
I will not allow Tallbloke, or you, to drive traffic to his site. The question is not civility. The question is whether he can use my thread to advance his own ends. The answer is no.
Sure I’ll censor you too. Tallbloke put up a link above to Jelbrings paper at some third party site, and contrary to your claims about my motives, I have no problem with that. If that’s not enough for you, post it on your own site. I’m not sending anyone Tallbloke’s direction.
w.
You could use a fulcrum and lever, from which you infer the metaphysics of force and resistance.
You cannot argue that once you exert force, then let go, that the energy you used to pull the lever remains permanently locked into the apparatus. It goes back to a state of potential/inertia and force/resistance are no longer operating.
Much the same with radiation. Heating a stone doesn’t lead to transfers of heat from the stone to heat up the air around it which then travels off somewhere else. It disippates
On a rotating planet without an atmosphere, there is a big temperature difference between night and day. Add an atmosphere, and the daytime high temperatures are lower because of conduction and convection. Therefore the daytime radiation is reduced. At equilibrium, the nighttime increase in radiation must equal the day reduction.
“The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power.”
Because of the S-B equation, the night time temperatures must rise more than the daytime temperatures were reduced.
Therefore, the average temperature must rise.
Alec Rawls says:
January 14, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Willis wrote:[SNIP: No, you cannot use my thread to drive traffic to your site. Nice try though. -.w]If this were Willis’ site, I would have no problem with this response to Tallbloke’s censorship of his views at Tallbloke’s Talkship Turnabout is fair play, as the saying goes.
I haven’t censored anything said by Willis or Joel on my site. It’s all there. I won’t provide links since Willis thinks I’m trying to boost my hit count by doing so, but check the end of the suggestions page and the post about Joel Shore and scientific discourse, it’s all there. Every word said by both of them.
I have told Joel he’s not going tto get the opportunity to disrupt the various relevant gravity threads, but offered him a guest post in compensation for this. Willis then banned himself in protest.
By the way, I like the idea of a talkship. When Mickey Mann makes me rich I’ll consider this further. 😉
Willis I read Jelbring’s paper out of interest and frankly it’s nonsense. Basically he shows that an atmosphere has an adiabatic lapse rate which depends on g, calls that the greenhouse effect and declares victory. It’s idiotic! I read it twice because I couldn’t believe anyone could be that stupid. I like your model planet in this thread because as I showed above it’s possible to show no graviational effect, if it doesn’t work for this it won’t work in a more complex system.
Anthony Watts says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:09 pm
I’ve closed the other two threads on this subject since they were getting a bit ragged and Shore-worn, and directed everyone here to this thread
—-
… and leave the moderating to Willis, eh? (Or is this a new moderating policy?) Although I have been a lurker here at WUWT for several years, I don’t know what the average number of snips per thread is for your blog. However, IMO, the number of snips by Willis in this thread must be at least a 6-sigma outlier. FWIW, the number of self-snips on this thread suggests to me that others share my disappointment.
Willis, I prefer to use the stairs …
PaulR says:
January 14, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Ed Fix: If no extra energy is imparted to the gas from the surface of the planet, the gas will eventually all settle to the bottom end of the tube, back at 0K. However, the gas’ temperature did rise, and EM energy was emitted. The planet doesn’t have any less gravity than it did before, so where did the energy come from? I don’t know. If you want to say that violates conservation of energy, I can’t dispute it. Maybe if we really knew what gravity is, we could answer the question.
The extra energy came from falling down the gravity well and stopping/colliding at the end of the fall. It is a transformation of potential energy in the form of the “altitude” of the gas particles into the kinetic energy of linear motion, then vibrational modes for IR.
Hi Paul,
Aren’t you missing Ed’s point though? He’s asking why it is that the gas gained that energy, when it hasn’t been subtracted from the gravity of the planet. Maxwell and Faraday burned the late night candles working on that problem too. Maxwell gave up on it in the end, basically saying gravity didn’t fit with the laws of mechanics too well. The best he could come up with was to say the ‘lines of force’ were like a web pervading space continually.
Given the existence of a force field such as gravity, that automatically implies energy and differences of energy due to position in space. We don’t need to know why gravity exists to understand the physics of motion, temperature, radiation and planets with atmospheres.
tallbloke says:
January 14, 2012 at 5:21 pm
Tallbloke, that is nothing but fancy footwork to try to disguise what you did. You didn’t ban Joel for disruption, that’s after-the-fact flim-flam to convince the credulous. In fact, what you told Joel had nothing to do with “disruption”. You said the conditions of your ban were, and I quote your words exactly:
I defy you to find anything in that statement about him disrupting your poor little thread. You were upset because he would not back down on his scientific beliefs.
w.
Ed Fix says:
January 14, 2012 at 4:37 pm
As for gravitational heating, here’s a thought experiment. Imagine a transparent tube in interstellar space (no gravity), 200 km long, one square meter cross sectional area. Fill this tube with some amount of an ideal gas at 0K. That is, each molecule of gas in the tube is motionless. Without gravity, everything remains motionless WRT the tube.
Now instantaneously put an earth-size planet in contact with one end of the tube. All the gas begins to accelerate toward the planet (now the bottom) end of the tube. There will be collisions between gas molecules. That means pressure must increase at the bottom as it decreases at the top. The ideal gas law PV=nRT tells us that with increasing pressure the temperature of the gas will rise. This increased temperature causes the gas to begin emitting S-B radiation.
If no extra energy is imparted to the gas from the surface of the planet, the gas will eventually all settle to the bottom end of the tube, back at 0K. However, the gas’ temperature did rise, and EM energy was emitted. The planet doesn’t have any less gravity than it did before, so where did the energy come from? I don’t know. If you want to say that violates conservation of energy, I can’t dispute it. Maybe if we really knew what gravity is, we could answer the question.
Uh, how do we account for all of the energy expended putting that earth-sized planet in contact with one end of the tube instantaneously?
If we could turn gravity on and off in such a manner, I can see all sorts of energy that could be created as long as it also didn’t take even greater amount of energy to turn that gravity on and off.
Where gravity isn’t a constant, maybe such things are possible?
“…But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. …”
Willis wrote this post and put parameters on the type of comment he was looking for.
Although the parameters are unusual, I think it’s ok to: “Snip it if it don’t fit it.”
The choices are:
prove it wrong,
or write an elevator speech.
I don’t like to see the contention between thinking minds, but this exchange seems to have a history to it and that’s a separate issue…. so… “keep the discussion at least relatively chill …”
kbray.