The Chaos theoretic argument that undermines Climate Change modelling

Just to be clear ahead of time, chaos in weather is NOT the same as climate disruption listed below – Anthony

Guest submission by Dr. Andy Edmonds

This is not intended to be a scientific paper, but a discussion of the disruptive light Chaos Theory can cast on climate change, for non-specialist readers. This will have a focus on the critical assumptions that global warming supporters have made that involve chaos, and their shortcomings. While much of the global warming case in temperature records and other areas has been chipped away, they can and do, still point to their computer models as proof of their assertions. This has been hard to fight, as the warmists can choose their own ground, and move it as they see fit. This discussion looks at the constraints on those models, and shows that from first principles in both chaos theory and the theory of modelling they cannot place reliance on these models.

First of all, what is Chaos? I use the term here in its mathematical sense. Just as in recent years Scientists have discovered extra states of matter (not just solid, liquid, gas, but also plasma) so also science has discovered new states that systems can have.

Systems of forces, equations, photons, or financial trading, can exist effectively in two states: one that is amenable to mathematics, where the future states of the systems can be easily predicted, and another where seemingly random behaviour occurs.

This second state is what we will call chaos. It can happen occasionally in many systems.

For instance, if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a heart attack, the normally predictable firing of heart muscles goes into a chaotic state where the muscles fire seemingly randomly, from which only a shock will bring them back. If you’ve ever braked hard on a motorbike on an icy road you may have experienced a “tank slapper” a chaotic motion of the handlebars that almost always results in you falling off. There are circumstances at sea where wave patterns behave chaotically, resulting in unexplained huge waves.

Chaos theory is the study of Chaos, and a variety of analytical methods, measures and insights have been gathered together in the past 30 years.

Generally, chaos is an unusual occurrence, and where engineers have the tools they will attempt to “design it out”, i.e. to make it impossible.

There are, however, systems where chaos is not rare, but is the norm. One of these, you will have guessed, is the weather, but there are others, the financial markets for instance, and surprisingly nature. Investigations of the populations of predators and prey, for instance shows that these often behave chaotically over time. The author has been involved in work that shows that even single cellular organisms can display population chaos at high densities.

So, what does it mean to say that a system can behave seemingly randomly? Surely if a system starts to behave randomly the laws of cause and effect are broken?

A little over a hundred years ago scientists were confident that everything in the world would be amenable to analysis, that everything would be therefore predictable, given the tools and enough time. This cosy certainty was destroyed first by Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, then by the work of Kurt Gödel, and finally by the work of Edward Lorenz, who first discovered Chaos, in, of course, weather simulations!

Chaotic systems are not entirely unpredictable, as something truly random would be. They exhibit diminishing predictability as they move forward in time, and this diminishment is caused by greater and greater computational requirements to calculate the next set of predictions. Computing requirements to make predictions of chaotic systems grow exponentially, and so in practice, with finite resources, prediction accuracy will drop off rapidly the further you try to predict into the future. Chaos doesn’t murder cause and effect; it just wounds it!

Now would be a good place for an example. Everyone owns a spread sheet program. The following is very easy to try for yourself.

The simplest man-made equation known that produces chaos is called the logistic map.

It’s simplest form is: Xn+1 = 4Xn(1-Xn)

Meaning that the next step of the sequence is equal to 4 times the previous step times 1 – the previous step. If we open a spread sheet we can create two columns of values:

Each column A and B is created by writing =A1*4* (1-A1) into cell A2, and then copying it down for as many cells as you like, the same for B2, writing in =B1*4* (1-B1). A1 and B1 contain the initial conditions. A1 contains just 0.3 and B1 contains a very slightly different number: 0.30000001

The graph to the right shows the two copies of the series. Initially they are perfectly in sync, then they start to divert at around step 22, while by step 28 they are starting to behave entirely differently.

This effect occurs for a wide range of initial conditions. It is fun to get out your spread sheet program and experiment. The bigger the difference between the initial conditions the faster the sequences diverge.

The difference between the initial conditions is minute, but the two series diverge for all that. This illustrates one of the key things about chaos. This is the acute sensitivity to initial conditions.

If we look at this the other way round, suppose that you only had the series, and let’s assume to make it easy, that you know the form of the equation but not the initial conditions. If you try to make predictions from your model, any minute inaccuracies in your guess of the initial conditions will result in your prediction and the result diverging dramatically. This divergence grows exponentially, and one way of measuring this is called the Lyapunov exponent. This measures in bits per time step how rapidly these values diverge, averaged over a large set of samples. A positive Lyapunov exponent is considered to be proof of chaos. It also gives us a bound on the quality of predictions we can get if we try to model a chaotic system.

These basic characteristics apply to all chaotic systems.

Here’s something else to stimulate thought. The values of our simple chaos generator in the spread sheet vary between 0 and 1. If we subtract 0.5 from each, so we have positive and negative going values, and accumulate them we get this graph, stretched now to a thousand points.

If, ignoring the scale, I told you this was the share price last year for some FTSE or NASDAQ stock, or yearly sea temperature you’d probably believe me. The point I’m trying to make is that chaos is entirely capable of driving a system itself and creating behaviour that looks like it’s driven by some external force. When a system drifts as in this example, it might be because of an external force, or just because of chaos.

So, how about the weather?

Edward Lorenz, (1917, 2008) was the father of the study of Chaos, and also a weather researcher. He created an early weather simulation using three coupled equations and was amazed to find that as he progressed the simulation in time the values in the simulation behaved unpredictably.

He then looked for evidence that real world weather behaved in this same unpredictable fashion, and found it, before working on discovering more about the nature of Chaos.

No climate researchers dispute his analysis that the weather is chaotic.

Edward Lorenz estimated that the global weather exhibited a Lyapunov exponent equivalent to one bit of information every 4 days. This is an average over time and the world’s surface. There are times and places where weather is much more chaotic, as anyone who lives in England can testify. What this means though, is that if you can predict tomorrows weather with an accuracy of 1 degree C, then your best prediction of the weather on average 5 days hence will be +/- 2 degrees, 9 days hence +/-4 degrees and 13 days hence +/- 8 degrees, so to all intents and purposes after 9-10 days your predictions will be useless. Of course, if you can predict tomorrow’s weather to +/- 0.1 degree, then the growth in errors is slowed, but since they grow exponentially, it won’t be many days till they become useless again.

Interestingly the performance of weather predictions made by organisations like the UK Met office drop off in exactly this fashion. This is proof of a positive Lyapunov exponent, and thus of the existence of chaos in weather, if any were still needed.

So that’s weather prediction, how about long term modelling?

Let’s look first at the scientific method. The principle ideas are that science develops by someone forming an hypothesis, testing this hypothesis by constructing an experiment, and modifying the hypothesis, proving or disproving it, by examining the results of the experiment.

A model, whether an equation or a computer model, is just a big hypothesis. Where you can’t modify the thing you are hypothesising over with an experiment, then you have to make predictions using your model and wait for the system to confirm or deny them.

A classic example is the development of our knowledge of the solar system. The first models had us at the centre, then the sun at the centre, then the discovery of elliptical orbits, and then enough observations to work out the exact nature of these orbits. Obviously, we could never hope to affect the movement of the planets, so experiments weren’t possible, but if our models were right, key things would happen at key times: eclipses, the transit of Venus, etc. Once models were sophisticated enough, errors between the model and reality could be used to predict new features. This is how the outer planets, Neptune and Pluto were discovered. If you want to know where the planets will be in ten years’ time to the second, there is software available online that will tell you exactly.

Climate scientists would love to be able to follow this way of working. The one problem is that, because the weather is chaotic, there is never any hope that they can match up their models and the real world.

They can never match up the model to shorter term events, like say six months away, because as we’ve seen, the weather six months away is completely and utterly unpredictable, except in very general terms.

This has terrible implications for their ability to model.

I want to throw another concept into this mix, drawn from my other speciality, the world of computer modelling through self-learning systems.

This is the field of artificial intelligence, where scientists attempt to create mostly computer programs that behave intelligently and are capable of learning. Like any area of study, this tends to throw up bits of general theory and one of these is to do with the nature of incremental learning.

Incremental learning is where a learning process tries to model something by starting out simple and adding complexity, testing the quality of the model as it goes.

Examples of this are neural networks, where the strength of connections between simulated brain cells are adapted as learning goes on or genetic programming, where bits of computer programs are modified and elaborated to improve the fit of the model.

From my example above of theories of the solar system, you can see that the scientific method itself is a form of incremental learning.

There is a graph that is universal in incremental learning. It shows the performance of an incremental learning algorithm, it doesn’t matter which, on two sets of data.

The idea is that these two sets of data must be drawn from the same source, but they are split randomly into two, the training set, used to train the model, and a test set used to test it every now and then. Usually the training set is bigger than the test set, but if there is plenty of data this doesn’t matter either. So as learning progresses the learning system uses the training data to modify itself, but not the test data, which is used to test the system, but is immediately forgotten by it.

As can be seen, the performance on the training set gets better and better as more complexity is added to the model, but the performance of the test set gets better, and then starts to get worse!

Just to make this clear, the test set is the only thing that matters. If we are to use the model to make predictions we are going to present new data to it, just like our test set data. The performance on the training set is irrelevant.

This is an example of a principle that has been talked about since William of Ockham first wrote “Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem “, known as Ockham’s razor and translatable as “entities should not be multiplied without necessity”, entities being in his case embellishments to a theory. The corollary of this is that the simplest theory that fits the facts is most likely to be correct.

There are proofs for the generality of this idea from Bayesian Statistics and Information Theory.

So, this means that our intrepid weather modellers are in trouble from both ends: if their theories are insufficiently complex to explain the weather their model will be worthless, if too complex then they will also be worthless. Who’d be a weather modeller?

Given that they can’t calibrate their models to the real world, how do weather modellers develop and evaluate their models?

As you would expect, weather models behave chaotically too. They exhibit the same sensitivity to initial conditions. The solution chosen for evaluation (developed by Lorenz) is to run thousands of examples each with slightly different initial conditions. These sets are called ensembles.

Each example explores a possible path for the weather, and by collecting the set, they generate a distribution of possible outcomes. For weather predictions they give you the biggest peak as their prediction. Interestingly, with this kind of model evaluation there is likely to be more than one answer, i.e. more than one peak, but they choose never to tell us the other possibilities. In statistics this methodology is called the Monte Carlo method.

For climate change they modify the model so as to simulate more CO2, more solar radiation or some other parameter of interest and then run another ensemble. Once again the results will be a series of distributions over time, not a single value, though the information that the modellers give us seems to leave out alternate solutions in favour of the peak value.

Models are generated by observing the earth, modelling land masses and air currents, tree cover, ice cover and so on. It’s a great intellectual achievement, but it’s still full of assumptions. As you’d expect the modellers are always looking to refine the model and add new pet features. In practice there is only one real model, as any changes in one are rapidly incorporated into the others.

The key areas of debate are the interactions of one feature with another. For instance the hypothesis that increased CO2 will result in run-away temperature rises is based on the idea that the melting of the permafrost in Siberia due to increased temperatures will release more CO2 and thus positive feedback will bake us all. Permafrost may well melt, or not, but the rate of melting and the CO2 released are not hard scientific facts but estimates. There are thousands of similar “best guesses’’ in the models.

As we’ve seen from looking at incremental learning systems too much complexity is as fatal as too little. No one has any idea where the current models lie on the graph above, because they can’t directly test the models.

However, dwarfing all this arguing about parameters is the fact that weather is chaotic.

We know of course that chaos is not the whole story. It’s warmer on average away from the equatorial regions during the summer than the winter. Monsoons and freezing of ice occur regularly every year, and so it’s tempting to see chaos as a bit like noise in other systems.

The argument used by climate change believers runs that we can treat chaos like noise, so chaos can be “averaged out”.

To digress a little, this idea of averaging out of errors/noise has a long history. If we take the example of measuring the height of Mount Everest before the days of GPS and Radar satellites, the method to calculate height was to start at Sea level with a theodolite and take measurements of local landmarks using their distance and their angle above the horizon to estimate their height. Then to move on to those sites and do the same thing with other landmarks, moving slowly inland. By the time surveyors got to the foothills of the Himalayas they were relying on many thousand previous measurements, all with measurement error included. In the event the surveyor’s estimate of the height of Everest was only a few hundred feet out!

This is because all those measurement errors tended to average out. If, however there had been a systemic error, like the theodolites all measuring 5 degrees up, then the errors would have been enormous. The key thing is that the errors were unrelated to the thing being measured.

There are lots of other examples of this in Electronics, Radio Astronomy and other fields.

You can understand climate modellers would hope for the same to be true of chaos. In fact, they claim this is true. Note however that the errors with the theodolites were nothing to do with the actual height of Everest, as noise in radio telescope amplifiers has nothing to do with the signals from distant stars. Chaos, however, is implicit in weather, so there is no reason why it should average out. It’s not part of the measurement; it’s part of the system being measured.

So can chaos be averaged out? If it can, then we would expect long term measurements of weather to exhibit no chaos. When a team of Italian researchers asked to use my Chaos analysis software last year to look at a time series of 500 years of averaged South Italian winter temperatures, the opportunity arose to test this. The picture below is this time series displayed in my Chaos Analysis program, ChaosKit.

The result? Buckets of chaos. The Lyapunov exponent was measured at 2.28 bits per year.

To put that in English, the predictability of the temperature quarters every year further ahead you try to predict, or the other way round, the errors more than quadruple.

What does this mean? Chaos doesn’t average out. Weather is still chaotic at this scale over hundreds of years.

If we were, as climate modellers try to do, to run a moving average over the data, to hide the inconvenient spikes, we might find a slight bump to the right, as well as many bumps to the left. Would we be justified in saying that this bump to the right was proof of global warming? Absolutely not: It would be impossible to say if the bump was the result of chaos, and the drifts we’ve see it can create or some fundamental change, like increasing CO2.

So, to summarize, climate researchers have constructed models based on their understanding of the climate, current theories and a series of assumptions. They cannot test their models over the short term, as they acknowledge, because of the chaotic nature of the weather.

They hoped, though, to be able to calibrate, confirm or fix up their models by looking at very long term data, but we now know that’s chaotic too. They don’t, and cannot know, whether their models are too simple, too complex, or just right, because even if they were perfect, if weather is chaotic at this scale, they cannot hope to match up their models to the real world, the slightest errors in initial conditions would create entirely different outcomes.

All they can honestly say is this: “we’ve created models that we’ve done our best to match up to the real world, but we cannot prove to be correct. We appreciate that small errors in our models would create dramatically different predictions, and we cannot say if we have errors or not. In our models the relationships that we have publicized seem to hold.”

It is my view that governmental policymakers should not act on the basis of these models. The likelihood seems to be that they have as much similarity to the real world as The Sims, or Half-life.

On a final note, there is another school of weather prediction that holds that long term weather is largely determined by variations in solar output. Nothing here either confirms or denies that hypothesis, as long term sunspot records have shown that solar activity is chaotic too.

Andy Edmonds

Short Bio

Dr Andrew Edmonds is an author of computer software and an academic. He designed various early artificial intelligence computer software packages and was arguably the author of the first commercial data mining system. He has been the CEO of an American public company and involved in several successful start-up businesses. His PhD thesis was concerned with time series prediction of chaotic series, and resulted in his product ChaosKit, the only standalone commercial product for analysing chaos in time series. He has published papers on Neural Networks, genetic programming of fuzzy logic systems, AI for financial trading, and contributed to papers in Biotech, Marketing and Climate.

Short summary: AA discussion of the disruptive light Chaos Theory can cast on climate change, for non-specialist readers. This will have a focus on the critical assumptions that global warming supporters have made that involve chaos, and their shortcomings. While much of the global warming case in temperature records and other areas has been chipped away, they can and do, still point to their computer models as proof of their assertions. This has been hard to fight, as the warmists can choose their own ground, and move it as they see fit. This discussion looks at the constraints on those models, and shows that from first principles in both chaos theory and the theory of modelling they cannot place reliance on these models.

On his Website: http://scientio.blogspot.com/2011/06/chaos-theoretic-argument-that.html

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June 13, 2011 2:00 pm

Chaotic non-linear systems cannot be modelled with computers or anything else.
http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/the-seductiveness-of-models/
Pointman

June 13, 2011 2:05 pm

Great article on a subject that has been greatly overlooked in the Global Warming debate.
I was once responsible for forecasting long term North American natural gas supply and demand for a major oil company. They had spent many millions of dollars to generate the most complete supply model of North American ever created. They had also hired some of the foremost demand modelers in the world.
Late in the project, I was brought into to get the supply/demand model to converge, which sunk funds and invested egos demanded. The only way you could do that was to force a fit by pre-deciding what outcomes you wanted. That totally negated the very expensive honest effort to predict the future natural gas picture in North America. That is a simple task compared to long term global climate forecasting, particularly given that the modelers determined man is the main climate driver.
Management was convinced to dump the effort for three very simple reasons.
1. You will never have perfect and complete data.
2. Even if you have a perfect data, you will never have a perfect and complete model.
3. Even if you had perfect data and a perfect model, if such a thing existed people will see it and change their behavior, negating your efforts.
As the article shows, off by a little means you can be off by a lot. As my Grandfather used to say “Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades” That applies to the global climate models also.
Has anyone ever seen a highly complex, long term forecast that includes human behavior (the ultimate chaotic system) that has been shown to be correct? I would be happy to see just one model that works.

June 13, 2011 2:14 pm

If that worked then it would be in use right now – the users of it would be as rich as Croesus! Have you any idea what construction companies would give for that kind of information let alone farmers? You probably should demonstrate it at the ocean front property you have in Kansas.

Actually, the idea of constructing an information theoretically optimal decoder of messages from the future does work in practice. Please see http://www.knowledgetothemax.com/Bibliography.htm for citations to the peer reviewed literature.

June 13, 2011 2:14 pm

John B says:
“…if a grade schooler supported an essay with evidence like your photos, what sort of marks do you think they would get?”
If the teacher cared about the scientific method and honest science… A+
It has been demonstrated repeatedly that plants, both C3 and C4, grow faster with increased CO2. Commercial greenhouse growers inject CO2 in order to increase yields. They wouldn’t spend the money involved if it didn’t work. And in a world where one-third of inhabitants subsist on $1 a day or less, it borders on the criminal to try and reduce atmospheric CO2.
At current and projected concentrations, CO2 is a harmless and beneficial trace gas, with no evidence to the contrary. The entire “carbon” scare is based on money and political power, not on science. In the geologic past CO2 has been many thousands of ppm with no ill effects, compared with today’s minuscule 0.00039 of the atmosphere. The “carbon” scare is just that: a scare. Ask yourself: cui bono?

John B
June 13, 2011 2:15 pm

@Pointman,
You have given a nice example of why WEATHER is hard to model. Climate is actually easier. Climate models are more analogous to something like “if you keep hitting balls randomly, the chances of a ball going down will vary as the square root (or some other function) of the number of balls on the table, based on which we can predict the number of balls that will be left on the table after a given period.” Such a model is unlikely to be very accurate over short periods (small number of hits), but will get better over longer periods.
I just made that one up, but there are many other examples like it on the web.
John

John B
June 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Smokey said “In the geologic past CO2 has been many thousands of ppm with no ill effects”
Two problems with that:
(a) In most of the geological past, when that was true, there were no humans around to be affected
(b) It is the rate of current change that is (as far as we know) unprecedented, even in the geological past

June 13, 2011 2:25 pm

Excellent article! Thank you, Dr Andrew

John B
June 13, 2011 2:29 pm

And a third problem:
Even if changes of the same rate did ocur in the past, say after a comet strike, so what? That in no way contradicts AGW. Forest fires have happened in the past, that does not mean there is no such thing as arson.

DirkH
June 13, 2011 2:35 pm

KR says:
June 13, 2011 at 12:19 pm
“Boundary conditions drive any deviations back to the averages for that system. So while we cannot state whether it will be sunny on your birthday – we can still note that winters will be colder than summers, and that reducing the amount of energy leaving the climate at any temperature (with GHG’s) will make the average temperatures higher.”
Be careful; your boundary conditions can easily be used to argue against a global warming tipping point, as Willis Eschenbach clearly does in his Thunderstorm governor hypothesis. As a warmist, the last thing you want is boundary conditions.
Also, “the amount of energy leaving the climate” is a function of the cloudiness, amongst others, because of the albedo. You didn’t dispute the chaotic nature of weather, so you have admitted that it is impossible to know the cloudiness of a given day in the future (beyond a few days); so you have also admitted that it is impossible to know the amount of energy leaving the planet.

KR
June 13, 2011 2:35 pm

Smokey
Cui bono? Good question. Who benefits from “business as usual”? CO2 is not toxic at any foreseeable concentrations (your position is a strawman argument at best, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), but the side effects of resulting climate change are, well, rather severe. Who benefits from not modifying their behavior?
– Perhaps the $$$’d interests in fossil fuels? Hmm?
Who loses?
– Everyone else?

Side topic:
I’ve yet to find a clean categorization of those who deny (sorry, but that’s the appropriate word for those who dismiss all the data) global warming, but it appears to include folks who feel that any restrictions on their behavior, or for that matter corporate profits, leads to a dictatorship. Unrestricted free markets lead to sweatshops and 19th century violations of basic human rights, as people are treated as disposable resources. You can certainly go too far the other direction, overly restricting market freedom, but a completely unrestrained capitalism is not a good solution. It really sucks, and we’ve spent a lot of time overcoming that “robber baron” mentality.
Perhaps a middle path? Charge companies the external costs (global warming) of their actions with a carbon tax or something similar (I’m not tied to a particular approach, as long as external costs are directed to those who cause them), while keeping it as simple and minimalistic as possible to not impede innovation?

KR
June 13, 2011 2:39 pm

John B“It is the rate of current change that is (as far as we know) unprecedented, even in the geological past”
Indeed! As someone pointed out on another blog – surely crashing your car into a tree at 60mph won’t be harmful, will it? After all, uncounted cars have decellerated from 60 to 0?
Or is the rate of change important?

June 13, 2011 2:43 pm

B
Great improv, enjoy your mathematically-ignorant post normal science delusion. Ignorance, as Orwell said, is bliss …
Pointman

Latitude
June 13, 2011 2:46 pm

John B says:
June 13, 2011 at 2:20 pm
(a) In most of the geological past, when that was true, there were no humans around to be affected
================================================================================
John, CO2 makes some people feel drowsy at 10,000 ppm………………

Latitude
June 13, 2011 2:49 pm

John B says:
June 13, 2011 at 2:20 pm
(a) In most of the geological past, when that was true, there were no humans around to be affected
=======================================================================
and 2000 ppm is common in houses and office buildings………

June 13, 2011 2:49 pm

John B says:
“(a) In most of the geological past, when that was true, there were no humans around to be affected”
So CO2 adversely affects humans? Certainly not at current and projected concentrations. We’ve had this discussion here over the past year; search the archives. The U.S. Navy allows continuous exposure of 5,000 ppm CO2 on its nuclear submarines. There are no ill effects and there is no loss of alertness. So point (a) is deconstructed.
Next:
“(b) It is the rate of current change that is (as far as we know) unprecedented, even in the geological past”
You simply don’t know. CO2 may well have increased more rapidly in the past. There is evidence that it increased more rapidly in the early 1800’s and in the 1940’s. What we do know is that CO2 has been almost twenty times higher than now, and the biosphere flourished.
Finally:
“That in no way contradicts AGW.”
There is no evidence of AGW, John. Sorry to disappoint. There is only conjecture and hypothesis. Further, the fact that CO2 continues to rise, and the global temperature has been flat to cooling for the past decade indicates that CO2 has little effect.
Do try and make stronger arguments, John, these take no effort to deconstruct.

June 13, 2011 2:58 pm

Hello everybody, thanks for all your comments, there are now too many to answer, and when I looked someone had usually answered them better than I could anyway!
You’ve given me some good feedbackm so I can attempt t to tighten the argument up still further.
Thanks
Andy

John B
June 13, 2011 3:09 pm

@Smokey
“So CO2 adversely affects humans?” Yes, by changing the climate – that’s what this is about, remember? It will do that (according to mainstream science) long before it makes anyone drowsy.
“There is no evidence of AGW, John” – er, because you say so. The IPCC reports summarise all the evidence: temperatures, glaciers, sea ice, etc., etc. Oh, but you’ve got a picture of a Christmas tree. “QED”

son of mulder
June 13, 2011 3:14 pm

“ferd berple says:
June 13, 2011 at 1:22 pm
“There are many deterministic yet chaotic systems”
What would help with climate is to find properties of the system that are not chaotic eg like with the 3 body problem, the scope of movement of the 3 masses always lies within the total gravitational potential and kinetic energy, overall system momenta are conserved etc An additional problem with climate is that it is not a closed system like the 3 body problem.
I know of no such climate properties equivalent to conservation of energy and momentum that could be measured unless by chance something like global average temperature was such a property which I very much doubt.

John B
June 13, 2011 3:18 pm

@Pointman
“Great improv, enjoy your mathematically-ignorant post normal science delusion. ”
You have no idea how much maths I know. Here is another example: the behaviour of gas molecules is chaotic and cannot be predicted, but the gas laws, which work on the bulk are both accurate and useful. Oftentimes long range properties are predictable, i.e. can be modelled, even when the chaotic details cannot.
I don’t doubt that you know some maths too, but you are using it to obfuscate and confuse those who are only too willing to go along with your inappropriate conclusions.

KR
June 13, 2011 3:22 pm

Smokey“You simply don’t know. CO2 may well have increased more rapidly in the past. There is evidence that it increased more rapidly in the early 1800′s and in the 1940′s.”
Really. You’re sure about that? Take a look at this, then, at some actual data:

and stop spouting nonsense. I’m always saddened when someone posts something that could be fact-checked in 5 minutes with a search engine.

Jimbo
June 13, 2011 3:39 pm

I thought it was now Global Climate Instability. We need a special page.

rbateman
June 13, 2011 3:50 pm

Ed Mertin says:
June 13, 2011 at 8:30 am
What is even more astounding is that human greed and societal upheaval directly preceed times of great chaos in the general climate. It’s as if the general populatino is pre-programmed to put itself into the worst possible straits, just before salt is rubbed into the wounds.

NikFromNYC
June 13, 2011 3:56 pm

I recently summarize this wordy article in two lines in my Authority graphic poster as:
“Only weather is chaotic. Never climate!”

gingoro
June 13, 2011 4:07 pm

I wonder if anyone has experimented with one or more of the climate models to see what the impact of increasing floating point size has on the output. Using the same input values one could vary the float size from a base of 64bits to 128bits to 256bits… In a chaotic system of this nature there may never be an adequate length of floating point number such that the results are identical when the float length is doubled??? Another possibility is that an adequate float length exists but it is too expensive (in terms of time) to use for “normal” runs. In either of the above two cases chaos can enter the model calculations at each simulation step thus aggravating the chaotic nature of the output.
Dave W

June 13, 2011 4:08 pm

B,
You’ve just demonstrated to me how little math you do actually know. Obfuscation is more your forte I feel.
Pointman