A short note about the state of affairs

It has been hard for me to keep up blogging, or even abreast of current news during my tour. With travel each day, and many days both a lunch and dinner meeting, it becomes an 18 hour grind. Mega kudos to Mr. David Archibald for his tireless navigation and good cheer. Without him I’d be lost here.

That said some disturbing things have happened. I’ve just learned of one this morning.

While on one hand we have an ugly climate science blacklist, on the other we have Tamino’s blog who has been the target of some legal complaint which prompted the removal of a post, ironically, one defending my rights. While I don’t agree much with Tamino, it is his “place”. He can say what he wants, it is his right.

Overall there’s too much pointless bluster and sniping in climate science. I wish there was a volume control.

Kids, can we just all “get along”?

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hunter

“No.”

PaulH

A few days of quiet contemplation for everyone would be a welcome diversion. :-/

Google it, its most likely for a non controversial reason and sometimes sent by mistake. …” others have this problem when they have put adsense or links to illegal software on their site” – think about it, WP is more concerned about rogue software, not opinions.

JimB

When we sit around my home…we have discussions. We have many different points of view between many friends, but we can still usually “discuss” things in a civil manner.
That being said, I do know people who believe that it is not civil to disagree with someone. I don’t know where this idea originated, but the belief seems to be that if you’re “discussing”, that means you all agree…but if you DON’T agree…you can’t have a discussion.
Seems very odd to me. It is a complex matter, no question…and I find it very similar to politics in that if you don’t like the president, there are all sorts of things wrong with you and your point of view.
And then there are those who want to see to it that NO civil debate takes place in either field…they thrive on discord.
Welcome to the human condition, I guess?
JimB

Sam the Skeptic

I agree, Anthony. I have learnt a lot of science since I started reading this blog and have learnt more than enough to be able to debate climate change with friends and neighbours and convince some of them that there is another side to the story and that some of the more alarmist positions are wrong and (occasionally) perhaps even deliberately so.
But the stance taken by Real Climate towards its opponents does it no favours and neither does the same arrogance or triumphalism emanating from the skeptics.
I am still open to be convinced that the pro-AGW lobby is right; I think it it unlikely since it seems to me that much of their science flies in the face of common sense and logic (as I see it).
As you say, Tamino’s site is his property and provided he stays within the laws of libel or other forms of defamation whatever they may be, he is entitled to express a view (and also to censor dissenting views if he wishes, though such action doesn’t move the debate forward).
I see increasing desperation among some supporters of the “warmists” (sorry, but I can’t think of a better shorthand; I don’t mean the term to be offensive in any way) but if this is only matched by equally unthinking and triumphalist outpourings from the other “camp”, then the debate is going nowhere and if a severe cooling (which seems possible) is just round the corner then we are going to need the assistance of those climate researchers and those who have succumbed to their blandishments in recent years.
This needs to be a serious debate, untainted as far as possible by personalities, and though we tend to think that the ad homs are all coming from the warmist side the “yah-boo” politics (as it is known in the UK) is not going to help any of us.
I’m with you … can’t we all just get along, even where we disagree?

Volume control, their methods are far more refined.
http://www.toonpool.com/user/323/files/shut_up_242485.jpg

James Sexton

People should take care not to become the ones they fight. or as Nietzsche put it, “Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.”

As Nigel Tufnel would say about the volume control, “Mine goes to 11!”

Curiousgeorge

If the issue was about the science of climate, then yes. But it’s not about the climate or science. It’s about power and money, and who has it. This is a grown up game of “King of the hill”. And the stakes are very, very high.

Luke

I just read this amazing comment “Overall there’s too much pointless bluster and sniping in climate science. I wish there was a volume control. Kids, can we just all “get along””
I now need a new keyboard after having spat my coffee all over it. Has being “down under” made Anthony more laid back?
After the tone of the posts for many years, the abuse of mainstream climate scientists, one’s jaw is on the floor and coffee on the computer. So McIntyre, Mann and Jones should all get along !!
If one wanted to get along ideas on both sides need to be tested and debated.
And if you want to make a start getting along try presenting the Watts tour to CSIRO and BoM instead of pot shotting them from a safe distance at very opportunity.

James Sexton

I suppose it is ironic that he stifles debate and his debate got stifled, but that isn’t the way. Mr. Goodnight, put your big girl panties on and suck it up. What did they do to you over there, call you mean names?

1DandyTroll

I hope Tamino didn’t make the complaint hi’self? <– That's about how much I respect the dude, but he does have the good and proper right to give me reason for not liking him.
'Kids, can we just all “get along”?"'
Nope!
It's very simple really. When ever you have two or more sides, the only ones that do get along are on each others side, mostly. The different sides never get along, for some god forsaken reason. :p

DesertYote

But but but … they are the enemy! They must be destroyed.

dbleader61

A quote that coincidentally appeared on my “Quote of the Day” gadget today leads us to an aspect of the human condition that is applicable here.
“The very purpose of existence is to reconcile the glowing opinion we have of ourselves with the appalling things that other people think about us.”
– Quentin Crisp
Our destiny is to defend ourselves and our opinions, so while it is admirable to “get along” we are doomed never to agree. It seems utterly amazing that humanity has accomplished as much as it is when it is our fate to be in disagreement. How did we ever form the first government? How does a bridge ever get built? How did we get to the moon? Somehow we have acheived these things despite our fundamental underpinnings to hold onto our own world view. Looking back at what humanity has accomplished means “this too shall pass” and we will survive the fundamental disagreements over AGW.

DesertYote

P.S. If I can civilly discuss the possibility of the worthiness of evolutionary theory to explain the origin of species with people in the Church, I attend, then climate science should be able to be discussed civilly also. BTW, some people in my Church think I am rather strange, but they love me anyways 🙂

Sean Peake

No, you are!

David Ball

We can disagree without being disagreeable. It has been my experience that when discussing this particular subject, I remain calm and present my points, and the pro-CAGW person flies off the handle in a childish emotional display. I welcome a calm discussion, but have rarely found one. I have to admit that I am amused by the “peacock” display, as it is beautiful, but sorely lacks substance. The most shocking thing to most CAGW advocates is how “green” I am, as though the two have to be mutually exclusive. Funny that they seem to have a wrong headed notion of how skeptics really are. I suppose it makes it easier for them to hate us. Like a glacier that slowly and inexorably advances, so it is with the skeptic movement.

David Ball

Just wanted to add that it would have been really funny if the volume knob at the top went to “11”.

David Ball

oops, someone already got in the “11” joke while I was typing. Oh well, ….

Alan Simpson

DesertYote says:
June 22, 2010 at 3:12 pm
P.S. If I can civilly discuss the possibility of the worthiness of evolutionary theory to explain the origin of species with people in the Church, I attend, then climate science should be able to be discussed civilly also. BTW, some people in my Church think I am rather strange, but they love me anyways 🙂
Well perhaps you would like to condemn the paper by the, “computer maintenance man” after you do that, and we all agree it is way beyond the pall, then your doubtless fascinating off topic and diversionary discussion of evolutionary theory may make some sense.

Greg Goodknight

As the one who made the complaint of libel against “tamino”, I’d like to remind everyone that there are a couple of limits to speech under our system of laws that even I know of. One is typified by yelling fire in a crowded theater, and can be criminal. Another is defamatory speech such as libel and slander, and it is a civil violation. It’s also against most Terms of Service on the net.
I recognized Anna Haynes from your original post even without the town, state or any names listed. Many of us who are not AGW believers in the Sierra foothills have had the occasion to meet Ms. Haynes under less than pleasant circumstances, including one SurfaceStations associate of yours, and so I eventually wrote a comment detailing my own first confrontation with Ms. Haynes, after she took credit.
I had no expectation of being allowed to post on “tamino’s” blog. I also had no expectations of being treated fairly, life isn’t always fair and that’s especially true in the blogosphere. I did have expectations that I would not be libeled, and never asked WordPress to have the thread deleted in its entirety, but what they saw in my complaint moved them to, in essence, do just that.
I wanted “Tamino’s” specific libels removed and the posts I made in my defense approved along with a couple of other recreational impossibilities but as far as I can tell, none of my requests were honored.
Unfortunately, I think the heat of the arguments will remain high for some time to come. I run into fewer and fewer who take exception to principled scoffers, but the worst of the rhetoric has yet to subside.
REPLY: Thanks for the explanation. The heated rhetoric is indeed sometimes off the scale there. – Anthony

nemesis

According to James Delingpole
“So when dealing with the Warmist lobby, always remember these helpful tips: sup with a long spoon, know that they’re lying from the fact that their lips are moving, and when they leave, make sure to count your fingers and your silverware.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100044445/climate-change-sceptics-have-smaller-members-uglier-wives-dumber-kids-says-new-study-made-up-by-warmists/

kim

Nine months ago I was hoping that all this would end in ridicule and not in anger, but the last thing Peter Bocking told me was that too many have died already. I no longer think we are all just going to get along. This was way too big and bold and destructive. Humans don’t just acquiesce to such as that.
==============================

like almost everything today the ‘climate’ debate movement is packaged and sold as ideology. which is a clever way to get people to really commit to something.
and most people hate to have their ideological beliefs questioned…they prefer security to freedom, certainty to…well,… freedom. yes i said it, most people are deathly afraid of freedom and responsibility.
oh, and ideology absolutely trumps reality.

kuhnkat

Not while there are so many dishonest partisans.

DirkH

“David Ball says:
June 22, 2010 at 3:22 pm
We can disagree without being disagreeable. It has been my experience that when discussing this particular subject, I remain calm and present my points, and the pro-CAGW person flies off the handle in a childish emotional display.”
I made the same observation. The reason can be found in transactional analysis; by not buying the dystopian scenario the AGW person offers you sabotage their game and frustrate them. They play a game that is called “UGMIT: You Got Me Into This” or some variation thereof. Eric Berne has given these games nice acronyms in his book “Games people play”. Look it up. Wait, here’s a list of some of the games:
(ironically, from the Death Star Of Knowledge wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#Some_commonly_found_games

Anu

Curiousgeorge says:
June 22, 2010 at 2:42 pm
If the issue was about the science of climate, then yes. But it’s not about the climate or science. It’s about power and money, and who has it.

Suuuuuurre, the climate scientists aren’t really working on the climate, or science. It’s all some elaborate multinational, multidecadal trick to get the tax money that currently goes to the military …
Meanwhile, real skeptics will be curious to see the data on global warming as it comes in this decade:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/?report=global
http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/AMSRE_Sea_Ice_Extent_L.png

AnonyMoose

That’s the price he pays from being under wordpress.com. He doesn’t own his site and has to operate under the rules and administration of wordpress.com.

kim

Yes, Tamino can say what he wants. And if it is libel, then he is liable.
===================

DesertYote

Alan Simpson
June 22, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Looks like I offended an anti-theist.
BTW, Its called allegory, If you can not understand it, maybe you should not post. You obviously do not have enough imagination to contribute to any discussion.

Michael R

Meanwhile, real skeptics will be curious to see the data on global warming as it comes in this decade:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/?report=global
http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/AMSRE_Sea_Ice_Extent_L.png

…and?

James Sexton

“Kids, can we just all “get along”?”
Upon further thought:
Yeh, we could, if it weren’t for the attempt to dismantle the entire socio-economic structure of the free world. While I despise censorship, it isn’t anything the alarmist group hasn’t been engaged in to begin with. Heck, the black list is a veiled attempt at censorship. And that is just one example, today. They also circumvent laws when it suits them, destroy peoples jobs, when it suits them, jeez, Anthony, how long did it take them before they even recognized you as a person? All of this anger could have been and should have been prevented. All they had to do, was engage people such as yourself and Steve Mc. and the rest as people with legitimate questions and it would have, in large part, been avoided. The blacklist today shows they still regard even the brightest of skeptics as intellectually inferior to the alarmist crowd, where I’d regard the regular poster here somewhere above the typical alarmist scientist.(I’m fairly familiar with the WAIS so I know a bit about recognizing intelligence, my appeal to authority. 🙂 ) While I and many here endeavor to take the high road, I understand when someone has reached the end of ones sense of fair play. Mainly because we’ve never had the benefit of fair play.

Curiousgeorge

@ Anu says:
June 22, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Apparently you never played “King of the hill” as a child. Let me enlighten you: King of the Hill (also known as “King of the Mountain” or “King of the Castle”), is a game, the object of which is to stay on top of a large hill or pile (or any other designated area) as the “King of the Hill”. Other players attempt to knock the current King off the pile and take their place, thus becoming the new King of the Hill.
The way the “king” can be removed from the hill depends largely on the rules determined by the players before the game starts. Ordinarily pushing is the most common way of removing the king from the hill, but there are significantly rougher variations where punching or kicking is allowed. The name of the game has become a common metaphor for any sort of competitive zero-sum game or social activity in which a single winner is chosen from among multiple competitors, and a hierarchy is devised by the heights the competitors achieve on the hill, and where winning can only be achieved at the cost of displacing the previous winner.

Scientists are not part of the game. They are merely spectators, as are those of us who cheer and boo on blogs such as this.
There is no elaborate multinational, multidecadal trick. No conspiracy, international or otherwise. Only the never-ending game that has been going on for centuries.

James Allison

Not sure about “getting along” but I’m with Anthony and others on being polite. Its much better to be clever and polite and show intellectual honesty (cheers ctm). This attitude will eventually sway public opinion more convincingly than the politically inspired, emotional and often plain dishonest pieces members of The Team and their supporters often write.
We should also consider poking fun when the occasion arises an excellent sport.

Amino Acids in Meteorites

Freedom of speech doesn’t cover everything. Example: you can’t yell fire in a crowded theatre, libel and slander are not protected under freedom of speech, andthere are words you cannot say in the mainstream media.
Libel and slander are relative.
Wordpress has the right to govern their blogs in any way they want.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Ok, so having said all that I agree with Anthony that there should be civility in blogging.

Amino Acids in Meteorites

I think I will remind everyone there was the big issue over The Great Global Warming Swindle at the UK Ofcom. So the battle over words isn’t a new thing in global warming. There’s trillions of dollars involved in global warming and also people’s freedoms. So I can’t see how these things can be avoided.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
I think this post is about Anthony wanting his blog to be a cut above. And I will follow his lead.

James Sexton

Curiousgeorge says:
June 22, 2010 at 5:00 pm
“……There is no elaborate multinational, multidecadal trick. No conspiracy, international or otherwise. Only the never-ending game that has been going on for centuries.”
So, Petrobras(one that George Soros is invested in) getting a $2 billion loan guarantee for off-shore drilling from the U.S. right after his moratorium on U.S. off-shore drilling is happenstance? George, you’re right more often than not on this page, but on this occasion, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn that I’d sell you if you can scrape up the money. Yes, it’s a game that’s been played since the dawn of time, but let’s not pretend people don’t conspire to win the game. I know I did.

James Sexton

“Gentlemen of France, perhaps you would care to fire first?”……do you mean that kind of courtesy or volume?

Tucker

Onto more important matters, I didn’t realize Anthony was so young for being so accomplished. Who’da thunk it. You do tireless work my friend. I work 26 hour days myself and you tire me out when I think of this blog and your projects and your speeches and your travel. Bless you and your work. It keeps me sane when I travel to California and listen to the ditto heads. How you can live at ground zero for stupidity is beyond my comprehension.

Curiousgeorge

@ James Sexton says:
June 22, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Thank you for the compliment 🙂 .
I was wondering if anyone would pick up on the hierarchical nature of the game, and how temporary alliances are incorporated into the play. Good catch. Most folks think of it as a very simplistic game, when in fact it is probably the most complex game ever devised, with multiple levels of subtlety.

Mike M.

Couldn’t quite figure out what was going on until I read Goodnight’s comment. Anna Haynes. Hand maiden of the Dark Side. Say no more. I believe without a doubt that he had an unpleasant confrontation with her.
Familiar with Harry Potter? This is Dolores Umbridge. I’m sure Tamino is just soo happy to have her on his side.

Gail Combs

I find it difficult to “get along” with people who are trying to hold a gun to my head and rob me of my freedom and hard earned wealth. I especially find it hard when the people who want to rob me have 100,000 or more times the wealth I have.
Sorry Anthony, as an abused child, I figured out the hard way never to give in to a bully even if he out weighed me by a hundred pounds. The leaders of the CAGW crowd are nothing but grown up school yard bullies and to them “compromise” is a weakness to be avoided at all costs. It takes two to have a polite discussion or argument and the CAGW crowd with their threats are not what I would call “polite”
Greenpeace: “We know who you are. We know where you live. We know where you work. And we be many, but you be few. ”

James Sexton

@ Curiousgeorge says:
June 22, 2010 at 6:26 pm
YW! Being slight of build, (at least in my younger years, now my chest has run south to collect the beer I drink) I’ve always endeavored to be the last king of the hill. (It worked sometimes.) I’m fairly adept at seeing the “multiple levels of subtlety” at the many games I play. Sadly, the stakes of this game is so high, I’d rather not play, but I’m compelled, not for my sake, but rather the future.
Cheers

James Sexton

@Mike M.
I’m not familiar with those people. I’ve tried to engage them on a few occasions, in different mannerisms, but any legitimate opposing view is censored. Heck, I left a note with them(Tamino’s site) stating support against censorship(I noted I disagreed often with them and that I was a skeptic) but I was appalled at the censorship and I would always support their right to expression of their opinion. Hours later, it still wasn’t posted. I haven’t bothered to check back to see if it is or not. They only hate their censorship, us……….?

Pete Hayes

“Kids, can we just all “get along”?”
But they will not let us join their “Gang” Anthony!

Dave Worley

Get along?
Big mistake, these folks are not friendlies.

RockyRoad

Science (and hence “discussion”) left the debate even before Gore proclaimed it settled and the majority of climate scientists have acted like children for decades. They will take their attitudes and improvisations to the grave; hopefully a new generation of realistic scientists will fill the void but I’m not optimistic.

jeef

Let the warmists throw their metaphorical stones. That’s their way, not ours. this blog has always been a polite, almost genteel environment that is a pleasure to visit. Can’t say the same for(un)realclimate or others of that ilk. Let’s keep it that way here, remembering that there’s other places for bigger rough and tumble games.

Anu

Curiousgeorge says:
June 22, 2010 at 5:00 pm

Yes, I realize there have been people of ambition for many millennia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugal-anne-mundu
First Emperor in history, ca. 25th century BC
And way before city-states, there were people who united/conquered villages and towns along the way to building the first cities.
But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes scientists are just doing science.
“What to do about a warming planet” is a separate problem from “are CO2 emissions causing the planet to warm, and by how much ?”
You would be wise to not ignore the climate data completely in the next decade – regardless of rhetoric, most people who are even aware of the issue will be persuaded, or not, by this data. This reality will be the foundation for any radical change in energy sources later this century – or not.
And yes, whatever happens, people will be trying to take advantage of the outcome – as always.