
Guest posting by Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Anthony Watts’ earlier posting about Margaret Thatcher’s sceptical approach to the climate question prompted some comments asking whether I could add anything to the story, since I gave her advice on science as well as other policy from 1982-1986, two years before the IPCC was founded.
First, what on Earth was a layman with a degree in classical languages and architecture doing giving advice on science to the British Prime Minister, who was herself a scientist and a Fellow of the Royal Society?
Truth is, British government is small (though still a lot bigger and more expensive than it need be). The Prime Minister’s policy unit had just six members, and, as a mathematician who was about to make a goodish fortune turning an obscure and hitherto-unnoticed wrinkle in the principles of probabilistic combinatorics into a pair of world best-selling puzzles, I was the only one who knew any science.
So, faute de mieux, it was I who – on the Prime Minister’s behalf – kept a weather eye on the official science advisors to the Government, from the Chief Scientific Advisor downward. On my first day in the job, I tottered into Downing Street dragging with me one of the world’s first portable computers, the 18-lb Osborne 1, with a 5” screen, floppy disks that were still truly floppy, and a Z80 8-bit chip which I had learned to program in machine language as well as BASIC.
This was the first computer they had ever seen in Downing Street. The head of security, a bluff military veteran, was deeply suspicious. “What do you want a computer for?” he asked. “Computing,” I replied.
I worked that weighty little box hard. It did everything: converting opinion-poll percentages to predictions of Parliamentary seats won and lost (we predicted the result of the 1983 General Election to within 1 seat); demonstrating a new type of index-linked home loan that removed the inflationary front-loading of interest payments and made it easier for working people to buy the State-owned houses they lived in (we sold a million, and turned cringing clients of the State into proud homeowners with a valuable stake in Britain); and calculating the optimum hull configuration for warships to prove that a government department had defrauded a lone inventor (he got $1 million in compensation).
The tiny computer back-engineered the Social Security Department’s model that showed the impact of changes in tax and benefit rates on different types of family; discounted Cabinet Ministers’ policies to present value to appraise their viability as investments; and worked out how much extra revenue the Government would get if it cut the top rate of income tax from 60 cents on the dollar to 40 cents.
On that one, I was right and the Treasury were wrong: as I had calculated, the rich ended up paying not only more tax but a higher percentage of total tax, even though the top tax rate they had previously paid was 50% higher than the new rate.
The only expenses I ever claimed for in four years at 10 Downing Street were £172 for soldering dry joints on that overworked computer, on which I also did the first elementary radiative-transfer calculations that indicated climate scientists were right to say some “global warming” would arise as CO2 concentration continued to climb.
I briefed my colleagues in the Policy Unit, and also the Prime Minister herself. My advice was straightforward: CO2 concentrations were rising, we were causing it, and it would cause some warming, but at that time no one knew how much (plus ca change), so we needed to find out.
The Prime Minister’s response was equally hard-headed: we were to keep an eye on the problem and come back to her again when action was necessary.
Did she even mention that “global warming” presented an opportunity to give nuclear power a push and, at the same time, to do down the coal-miners who had destroyed a previous Conservative government and had also tried to destroy hers?
Certainly not, for four compelling reasons.
First, nuclear power was politically dead at that time, following the monumentally stupid attempt by the Soviet operators of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor to shut it down without external power just because they were curious to see what would happen.
Secondly, by then the mineworkers, under their Communist leadership, had long been defeated, and we were making arrangements for the deep, dangerous, loss-making coal-mines that had killed so many brave pitmen to be shut down and replaced with safer, profitable, opencast mines.
Two mineworkers came to my farewell party at 10 Downing Street: the first miners ever to enter Downing Street during a Conservative administration.
Thirdly, Margaret Thatcher was never vindictive: it simply was not in her nature. If any of us ever suggested taking any action that would unfairly disadvantage any of her political opponents, she would give us the Gazillion-Gigawatt Glare and say, very firmly and quietly, “Prime Ministers don’t, dear!”
Fourthly, she had an unusual mind that effortlessly spanned CP Snow’s Two Cultures.
As a former food chemist, she possessed the ruthlessly honest logic of the true scientist. As a former barrister, she had the vigor and articulacy of the true practitioner of the forensic arts. Too many scientists today are in effect politicians: too many politicians pretend to be scientific.
Margaret Thatcher was genuinely both scientist and politician, and was able to take the best from both roles without confusing them. She would not have dreamed of doing anything that in any way undermined the integrity of science.
A little vignette will illustrate her scientific integrity. In the late 1970s, a year before she won the first of her three General Elections and became Britain’s first woman Prime Minister, I had sent her a tiny piece of propaganda that I had designed, the Labour Pound.
The little slip of paper bore this simple message: “This is a Labour Pound. This is how small your banknote would be today if it had been shrunk to match the fall in its value under Labour. Vote Conservative!”
Margaret Thatcher noticed at once that the piece of paper was a little too small. Inflation had been bad under the Labour Government (at the time it was running at 27% a year), but not that bad. “Do it again and get it right and be fair,” she said. Humbled, I did as I was told – and tens of millions of Labour Pounds were distributed throughout Britain at the subsequent General Election, to satisfyingly devastating effect.
In 1988 it was my successor at No. 10, George Guise, who traveled one bitterly cold October weekend down to Chequers, the Prime Minister’s country house, and sat in front of a roaring fire writing the speech that would announce a government subsidy to the Royal Society to establish what would become the Hadley Centre for Forecasting.
George remembers how he and the Prime Minister chuckled at the irony of writing a speech about “global warming” on an evening so cold that he could hardly hold his pen.
But that’s October for you: a couple of years ago the scientific illiterates who now inhabit the House of Commons voted for the Climate Change and National Economic Hara-Kiri Bill by one of the largest majorities in Parliament’s history, with only three gallant MPs having the courage to defy the Whips and vote against – and this on the very night that the first October snow in 74 years fell in Parliament Square.
In due course, the scientific results began to arrive. It became as clear to Margaret Thatcher as it has to me that our original concern was no longer necessary. The warming effect of CO2 is simply too small to make much difference and, in any event, it is orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective to adapt to any consequences of “global warming” than to wreck the economies of the West by trying to demonize CO2 and cut our emissions.
Margaret Thatcher was very conscious that the Left tries to taint every aspect of life by attempting to politicize it.
In her thinking, therefore, there is genuine outrage that the coalescence of financial and political vested-interest factions in the scientific and academic community that are driving the climate scare should be striving to bring the age of enlightenment and reason to an end by treating scientific debate as though every question were a political football to be kicked Leftward.
In the elegant words of my good friend Bob Ferguson of the Science and Public Policy Institute, she is interested not in “policy-based evidence-making” but in “evidence-based policy-making”. The present crop of politicians on both sides of the Atlantic could learn much from her honest, forthright, no-nonsense approach.
Margaret Thatcher: the world’s first climate realist
by Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Anthony Watts’ earlier posting about Margaret Thatcher’s sceptical approach to the climate question prompted some comments asking whether I could add anything to the story, since I gave her advice on science as well as other policy from 1982-1986, two years before the IPCC was founded.
First, what on Earth was a layman with a degree in classical languages and architecture doing giving advice on science to the British Prime Minister, who was herself a scientist and a Fellow of the Royal Society?
Truth is, British government is small (though still a lot bigger and more expensive than it need be). The Prime Minister’s policy unit had just six members, and, as a mathematician who was about to make a goodish fortune turning an obscure and hitherto-unnoticed wrinkle in the principles of probabilistic combinatorics into a pair of world best-selling puzzles, I was the only one who knew any science.
So, faute de mieux, it was I who – on the Prime Minister’s behalf – kept a weather eye on the official science advisors to the Government, from the Chief Scientific Advisor downward. On my first day in the job, I tottered into Downing Street dragging with me one of the world’s first portable computers, the 18-lb Osborne 1, with a 5” screen, floppy disks that were still truly floppy, and a Z80 8-bit chip which I had learned to program in machine language as well as BASIC.
This was the first computer they had ever seen in Downing Street. The head of security, a bluff military veteran, was deeply suspicious. “What do you want a computer for?” he asked. “Computing,” I replied.
I worked that weighty little box hard. It did everything: converting opinion-poll percentages to predictions of Parliamentary seats won and lost (we predicted the result of the 1983 General Election to within 1 seat); demonstrating a new type of index-linked home loan that removed the inflationary front-loading of interest payments and made it easier for working people to buy the State-owned houses they lived in (we sold a million, and turned cringing clients of the State into proud homeowners with a valuable stake in Britain); and calculating the optimum hull configuration for warships to prove that a government department had defrauded a lone inventor (he go $1 million in compensation).
The tiny computer back-engineered the Social Security Department’s model that showed the impact of changes in tax and benefit rates on different types of family; discounted Cabinet Ministers’ policies to present value to appraise their viability as investments; and worked out how much extra revenue the Government would get if it cut the top rate of income tax from 60 cents on the dollar to 40 cents.
On that one, I was right and the Treasury were wrong: as I had calculated, the rich ended up paying not only more tax but a higher percentage of total tax, even though the top tax rate they had previously paid was 50% higher than the new rate.
The only expenses I ever claimed for in four years at 10 Downing Street were £172 for soldering dry joints on that overworked computer, on which I also did the first elementary radiative-transfer calculations that indicated climate scientists were right to say some “global warming” would arise as CO2 concentration continued to climb.
I briefed my colleagues in the Policy Unit, and also the Prime Minister herself. My advice was straightforward: CO2 concentrations were rising, we were causing it, and it would cause some warming, but at that time no one knew how much (plus ca change), so we needed to find out.
The Prime Minister’s response was equally hard-headed: we were to keep an eye on the problem and come back to her again when action was necessary.
Did she even mention that “global warming” presented an opportunity to give nuclear power a push and, at the same time, to do down the coal-miners who had destroyed a previous Conservative government and had also tried to destroy hers?
Certainly not, for four compelling reasons.
First, nuclear power was politically dead at that time, following the monumentally stupid attempt by the Soviet operators of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor to shut it down without external power just because they were curious to see what would happen.
Secondly, by then the mineworkers, under their Communist leadership, had long been defeated, and we were making arrangements for the deep, dangerous, loss-making coal-mines that had killed so many brave pitmen to be shut down and replaced with safer, profitable, opencast mines.
Two mineworkers came to my farewell party at 10 Downing Street: the first miners ever to enter Downing Street during a Conservative administration.
Thirdly, Margaret Thatcher was never vindictive: it simply was not in her nature. If any of us ever suggested taking any action that would unfairly disadvantage any of her political opponents, she would give us the Gazillion-Gigawatt Glare and say, very firmly and quietly, “Prime Ministers don’t, dear!”
Fourthly, she had an unusual mind that effortlessly spanned CP Snow’s Two Cultures.
As a former food chemist, she possessed the ruthlessly honest logic of the true scientist. As a former barrister, she had the vigor and articulacy of the true practitioner of the forensic arts. Too many scientists today are in effect politicians: too many politicians pretend to be scientific.
Margaret Thatcher was genuinely both scientist and politician, and was able to take the best from both roles without confusing them. She would not have dreamed of doing anything that in any way undermined the integrity of science.
A little vignette will illustrate her scientific integrity. In the late 1970s, a year before she won the first of her three General Elections and became Britain’s first woman Prime Minister, I had sent her a tiny piece of propaganda that I had designed, the Labour Pound.
The little slip of paper bore this simple message: “This is a Labour Pound. This is how small your banknote would be today if it had been shrunk to match the fall in its value under Labour. Vote Conservative!”
Margaret Thatcher noticed at once that the piece of paper was a little too small. Inflation had been bad under the Labour Government (at the time it was running at 27% a year), but not that bad. “Do it again and get it right and be fair,” she said. Humbled, I did as I was told – and tens of millions of Labour Pounds were distributed throughout Britain at the subsequent General Election, to satisfyingly devastating effect.
In 1988 it was my successor at No. 10, George Guise, who traveled one bitterly cold October weekend down to Chequers, the Prime Minister’s country house, and sat in front of a roaring fire writing the speech that would announce a government subsidy to the Royal Society to establish what would become the Hadley Centre for Forecasting.
George remembers how he and the Prime Minister chuckled at the irony of writing a speech about “global warming” on an evening so cold that he could hardly hold his pen.
But that’s October for you: a couple of years ago the scientific illiterates who now inhabit the House of Commons voted for the Climate Change and National Economic Hara-Kiri Bill by one of the largest majorities in Parliament’s history, with only three gallant MPs having the courage to defy the Whips and vote against – and this on the very night that the first October snow in 74 years fell in Parliament Square.
In due course, the scientific results began to arrive. It became as clear to Margaret Thatcher as it has to me that our original concern was no longer necessary. The warming effect of CO2 is simply too small to make much difference and, in any event, it is orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective to adapt to any consequences of “global warming” than to wreck the economies of the West by trying to demonize CO2 and cut our emissions.
Margaret Thatcher was very conscious that the Left tries to taint every aspect of life by attempting to politicize it.
In her thinking, therefore, there is genuine outrage that the coalescence of financial and political vested-interest factions in the scientific and academic community that are driving the climate scare should be striving to bring the age of enlightenment and reason to an end by treating scientific debate as though every question were a political football to be kicked Leftward.
In the elegant words of my good friend Bob Ferguson of the Science and Public Policy Institute, she is interested not in “policy-based evidence-making” but in “evidence-based policy-making”. The present crop of politicians on both sides of the Atlantic could learn much from her honest, forthright, no-nonsense approach.
Cal Barndorfer,
Monckton wrote Abraham outlining his concerns. The fact that Abraham refused to respond tells us all we need to know about his lack of character.
Abraham is typical of the alarmist contingent’s lack of class in general.
Smokey says:
June 18, 2010 at 8:17 am
Cal Barndorfer,
Monckton wrote Abraham outlining his concerns. The fact that Abraham refused to respond tells us all we need to know about his lack of character.
Abraham is typical of the alarmist contingent’s lack of class in general.
==============================
Other than Monckton’s word, where is your evidence that a letter has been sent and that Abraham has refused to comment. When was it sent? How much time does Abraham have to respond? What did it say? Was it as insulting as Monckton’s public response to Abraham’s presentation?
This attempt to injure Abraham’s character is pathetic. So far you’ve produced no evidence for any of your claims.
CB,
Do you have a moral blind spot? You impugn Monckton’s character while whining about your boy’s lack of character; psychological projection there. Even the far-Left NY Times prints retractions when it gets its facts wrong.
Abraham did a hit ‘n’ run drive-by attack, published on the internet, and now he is hiding out with his tail between his legs, cowering in his ivory tower rather than man up and defend his questionable assertions. Once again I double dog dare Abraham to issue a debate challenge to Lord Monckton.
For someone as meticulous to detail as Christopher Monckton to write both the university and Abraham, and as you imply, to lie about one of those communications, shows that you believe only what suits you. You bring to mind last election’s PDS.
I have no need to produce ‘evidence’ to please you. I’ve watched Abraham’s one-sided polemic. If I were Monckton I would demand that Abraham explain himself. Instead, Abraham hides out, just like all the other purveyors of climate alarmism.
Tallbloke,
You seem to be letting your hatred of Thatcher cloud your logic. Let me see if I can summarise: Thatcher destroys UK coal mining ==> coal mines become unusable ==> insufficient coal to power our energy needs ==> brown outs in 2015.
Excuse me, but isn’t the reason we won’t have sufficient energy generating capacity because our political leaders have decided to shun fossil fuels because of global warming hysteria? And isn’t it also the case that it was cheaper to import coal from Russia than mine our own so if we wanted to build coal fired power stations we could have, whether or not we mined our own coal?
Smokey says:
June 18, 2010 at 10:32 am
CB,
Do you have a moral blind spot? You impugn Monckton’s character while whining about your boy’s lack of character; psychological projection there. Even the far-Left NY Times prints retractions when it gets its facts wrong.
Abraham did a hit ‘n’ run drive-by attack, published on the internet, and now he is hiding out with his tail between his legs, cowering in his ivory tower rather than man up and defend his questionable assertions. Once again I double dog dare Abraham to issue a debate challenge to Lord Monckton.
For someone as meticulous to detail as Christopher Monckton to write both the university and Abraham, and as you imply, to lie about one of those communications, shows that you believe only what suits you. You bring to mind last election’s PDS.
I have no need to produce ‘evidence’ to please you. I’ve watched Abraham’s one-sided polemic. If I were Monckton I would demand that Abraham explain himself. Instead, Abraham hides out, just like all the other purveyors of climate alarmism.
====================================
So in summary:
1) You have no evidence of Abraham using ad-hominem attacks on Monckton
2) You have no proof that Monckton wrote a letter to Abraham, nor any information on what it said, nor when it was sent, nor whether it is actually being ignored by Abraham or whether he’s currently crafting a response.
Noted.
And debates are pointless. This is about science, not who is the better orator.
“”” Cal Barndorfer says:
June 18, 2010 at 9:11 am
Smokey says:
June 18, 2010 at 8:17 am
Cal Barndorfer,
Monckton wrote Abraham outlining his concerns. The fact that Abraham refused to respond tells us all we need to know about his lack of character.
Abraham is typical of the alarmist contingent’s lack of class in general.
==============================
Other than Monckton’s word, where is your evidence that a letter has been sent and that Abraham has refused to comment. When was it sent? How much time does Abraham have to respond? What did it say? Was it as insulting as Monckton’s public response to Abraham’s presentation? “””
So Cal; did I miss something here? Can you give me a citation that points to the documentation that confirms or even supports the accuracy of YOUR point of view; I didn’t see that anywhere; and I know what a stickler your are for peer reviewed documentary backup for everything you say.
“”” Jeremy C says:
June 18, 2010 at 5:43 am
Just a quick question. Can anybody confirm for me that Christopher Monckton’s job title in No 10 was as an adviser on education policy? “”
Jeremy, the confirmation is right up there where you posted YOUR documented evidence that in fact that was not his job title at #10.
Science progresses by skeptics posting evidence against the premise; as Einstein put it; no amount of evidence can confirm a theory; but a single piece of evidence can destroy it.
So Jeremy; ball is in your court; so deal with it.
“at least we are spared his face — he looks like an overcooked prawn”
– Lord Moncton referring to Prof. John Abraham
Anyone else find this ironic?
aha, after three months with no internet, I can access it again.
I’m delighted to see Richard Courtney’s explanations here. I still find his understanding to be the deepest and most coherent understanding, by far, that I’ve seen anywhere, of why the AGW myth ever took root. I’d like to see his material promoted to a separate post here. I was just thinking, how many warring half-truths I was seeing here, then Richard shows how apparently contradictory fragments can all fit together. Yes, originally Thatcher believed AGW was possible, as most of us did originally, she did use her scientific knowledge and concern to bolster her reputation and credibility, she did need to put money where her mouth was in founding the Hadley Centre and funding multi-disciplinary climate research, she did come to see that it was not a danger, but she did need to keep on supporting climate concern in order to keep her reputation. Her words show she understood the real science very exactly but you have to read them carefully to see just that, because she speaks as both scientist and politician, one who has to be seen as facing things other people are concerned about, even while knowing herself that there was little to worry about.
I applaud Monckton’s reply here, inviting Abrahams to respond privately and apologizing for his own OTT language towards Abrahams. Monckton’s science, and knowledge of science, wins over that of RealClimate and all the AGW crowd, hands down, as I’ve shown in crucial detail on my web page re. his original “refutation” by Gavin Schmidt, and confirmed to myself with further close investigation of similar issues. I fear this is why no AGW believer wants to debate openly, directly, with Monckton; this is what makes me most sick at heart about the lack of integrity in science currently.
Now the “sorcerer’s apprentice” feedback loop has kicked in, as Courtney alone, it seems, foresaw.
Lucy,
I wondered what happened to you. Glad to see you back!
George E. Smith says
June 18, 2010 at 2:06 pm:
So Cal; did I miss something here? Can you give me a citation that points to the documentation that confirms or even supports the accuracy of YOUR point of view; I didn’t see that anywhere; and I know what a stickler your are for peer reviewed documentary backup for everything you say.
===============================
Yep. See this link here: http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/
And it’s not so much that I’m a stickler for peer review (I’m not) so much as a stickler for evidence of any kind when accusing someone of wrongdoing.
Cal Barndorfer,
Using your original Abraham link to support your defense of Abraham? Isn’t that a circular argument?
Score one for George E. Smith.
Your main problem is trying to prop up a guy who hides out while taking internet pot shots. That looks really bad. No matter how you spin it, Abraham is a coward.
Smokey says
June 18, 2010 at 7:14 pm:
Cal Barndorfer,
Using your original Abraham link to support your defense of Abraham? Isn’t that a circular argument?
==================================
Nope. I’ve been arguing that Monckton’s accusation (later blindly accepted by posters on this thread) that Abraham’s presentation was full of ad hominem attacks was incorrect. Going straight to the source and actually listening to the presentation is the best way to confirm this.
Smokey says
June 18, 2010 at 7:14 pm:
Score one for George E. Smith.
Your main problem is trying to prop up a guy who hides out while taking internet pot shots. That looks really bad. No matter how you spin it, Abraham is a coward.
==================================
Are you trying to suggest that scientific disputes can only be conducted face to face? I’d say there’s a pretty long history to the contrary. In any case, I find it ironic that someone hiding behind a pseudonym is accusing Abraham (who provided his real name, email address, place of employment, CV, etc) of being a coward for “hiding out”.
Cal Barndorfer,
Ah, but I am not posting polemics via the internet, attacking people who merely have a different point of view, like Abraham does, am I?
And who are you? You use a name, but beyond that handle there is no veracity. You could be Gavin Schmidt for all we know. Or the debunked Michael Mann.
And yes, Abraham is a coward. If I’m wrong, I expect to see an upcoming debate between him and the Viscount. But I’m not wrong…
…am I?
Lucy.
Can I second Smokey in welcoming you back?
Cheers!
And Smokey: Keep up the good work!
Smokey says:
June 18, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Cal Barndorfer,
Ah, but I am not posting polemics via the internet, attacking people who merely have a different point of view, like Abraham does, am I?
And who are you? You use a name, but beyond that handle there is no veracity. You could be Gavin Schmidt for all we know. Or the debunked Michael Mann.
And yes, Abraham is a coward. If I’m wrong, I expect to see an upcoming debate between him and the Viscount. But I’m not wrong…
…am I?
=======================================
You’re right. I could be Gavin Schmidt or Michael Mann or anyone else. But that doesn’t matter since I’m not asking you to take me at my word. I made a statement that those suggesting Abraham’s presentation was full of ad hominem attacks were wrong and then I provided the link to Abraham’s actual presentation so his critics could actually see for themselves. Get back to me when you’ve read it. I know it requires more effort than just typing the sentence ‘Abraham is a coward’ over and over, but it’s cowards who take the easy way out. And you don’t want to find yourself labeled a coward now do you, Smokey?
Get back to me when you’ve either got some examples of Abraham’s ad hominem pot shots or an admission that you were wrong.
A debate wouldn’t be thorough, primarily analytical, and fairly balanced in its coverage of the contentious points. What ought to be done is for M to post all A’s statements, one at a time, and interject rebuttals (and/or concessions, or clarifications). Then A can reply and interject his rebuttals (and concessions), etc., etc. It should all be done online, where links and graphics can be studied at everyone’s leisure.
@ur momisugly George E. Smith: June 17, 2010 at 12:43 pm
@ur momisugly RockyRoad: June 17, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Have either of you ever come across an answer to the ~800 year lag?
I have looked and came across one curious connection. The coldest water in the oceans is near the bottom and the coldest water also stores the most dissolved CO2. Now the ocean current circuit takes approximately ~1600 years to complete one complete cycle. There are multiple places where surface currents dive to the depths and conversely deep water is forced to the surface and these points are about one-half of the worlds circumference apart.
I’m not saying this is conclusive but it is a curiosity since these periods tend to be of the same general scale.
See: Thermohaline circulation
Vincent says:
June 18, 2010 at 10:49 am
Tallbloke,
You seem to be letting your hatred of Thatcher cloud your logic. Let me see if I can summarise: Thatcher destroys UK coal mining ==> coal mines become unusable ==> insufficient coal to power our energy needs ==> brown outs in 2015.
Excuse me, but isn’t the reason we won’t have sufficient energy generating capacity because our political leaders have decided to shun fossil fuels because of global warming hysteria? And isn’t it also the case that it was cheaper to import coal from Russia than mine our own so if we wanted to build coal fired power stations we could have, whether or not we mined our own coal?
Hi Vincent, it’s true I got into a Thatcher hate rant here, but note that “our political leaders have decided to shun fossil fuels because of global warming hysteria?” that she started
She actually imported coal from anyhere that would sell it to us to break the Miners. Including brown which was hugely inferior to the domestic product coal from south american mines with apalling safety records using child labour . It caused much worse emissions and huge technical problems for the power plant operators.
My thanks to Richard Courtney for his level headed analysis, I now see that he wasn’t trying to defend Thatcher so much as Christopher Monckton.
Great to see Lucy posting again here too. Three months with no internet! How did you survive?
Lucy? Lucy? Ah Yes I vaguely remember the name 🙂
Welcome back-not rocking at Glastonbury?
Tonyb
tallbloke:
I write to thank you for your kind, generous and unsolicited comment at June 19, 2010 at 12:59 am that says:
“My thanks to Richard Courtney for his level headed analysis, I now see that he wasn’t trying to defend Thatcher so much as Christopher Monckton.”
And I add that all debate on the web would benefit from being conducted in the forthright, robust, considered and honest manner that the totality of your posts in this thread has demonstrated. Indeed, I thank you for your your challenges that forced me to explain my reasoning which I had clearly not presented in an adequate manner for you – so probably others, too – to undertand.
Richard
Richard S Courtney says:
June 19, 2010 at 3:37 am
I add that all debate on the web would benefit from being conducted in the forthright, robust, considered and honest manner that the totality of your posts in this thread has demonstrated.
Thanks for those kind words too Richard. I just want to add that although Thatcher did at least express some uncertainties about climate science in her 1990 speech she says at the end:
“But our immediate task this week is to carry as many countries as possible with us, so that we can negotiate a successful framework convention on climate change in 1992. We must also begin work on the binding commitments that will be necessary to make the convention work.
To accomplish these tasks, we must not waste time and energy disputing the IPCC’s report or debating the right machinery for making progress. The International Panel’s work should be taken as our sign post: and the United Nations Environment Programme and the World Meteorological Organisation as the principal vehicles for reaching our destination. ”
This amounts to a decree that “The science is settled – the debate is over.” It also enshrines these unelected, unaccountable supra-national quangos as the final arbiters of policy and direction (towards global governance).
This from the leader of the party most sceptical about handing more power to bureaucrats in Brussels. What was she thinking? I think she was setting the stage for herself in the role of international stateswoman, recognising her domestic political authority was a waning star.
Roger Knights @12:03 am,
An online discussion would be a good way to go. If Abraham ever comes out of hiding, this can be sorted out online. Not as satisfying as a live public debate, but much better than the current one-sided polemic.
It’s always a shame that any thread on Thatcher has to result in the regurgitation of Left wing myths of how she single handedly and deliberately destroyed British industry (what absolute nonsense). The reality of course is that as well as (with President Reagan) freeing Eastern Europe from the Communist tyrrany that the left would have the UK be subjected to, she removed the cancer of unelected union political power and rescued the economy from bankruptcy to robust health as all incoming conservative governments are destined to do.
If she let this dreadful MMGW genie out of the bottle then that is very unfortunate and she also signed the Treaty of Rome which helped set up the EUSSR. I’ll forgive her anything though because of what she did to straw head Scargill. I believe that destruction of the mining Union was her main driver in promoting a move away from coal to nuclear.
Martin Mason:
At June 19, 2010 at 8:22 am you assert:
“It’s always a shame that any thread on Thatcher has to result in the regurgitation of Left wing myths of how she single handedly and deliberately destroyed British industry (what absolute nonsense).”
Then you conclude with:
” If she let this dreadful MMGW genie out of the bottle then that is very unfortunate and she also signed the Treaty of Rome which helped set up the EUSSR. I’ll forgive her anything though because of what she did to straw head Scargill. I believe that destruction of the mining Union was her main driver in promoting a move away from coal to nuclear.”
Hmmm. I prefer to assess the factual evidence instead of subscribing to right wing (or any other wing) myths.
Richard