By Larry Kummer. From the Fabius Maximus website.
Summary: This is the last of my series about ways to resolve the public policy debate about climate change. It puts my proposal to test the models in a wider context of science norms and the climate science literature. My experience shows that neither side of the climate wars has much interest in a fair test; both sides want to win through politics. Resolving the climate policy wars through science will require action by us, the American public.
Ending the climate policy debate the right way
Do you trust the predictions of climate models? That is, do they provide an adequate basis on which to make major public policy decisions about issues with massive social, economic and environmental effects? In response to my posts on several high-profile websites, I’ve had discussions about this with hundreds of people. Some say “yes”; some say “no”. The responses are alike in that both sides have sublime confidence in their answers; the discussions are alike in they quickly become a cacophony.
The natural result: while a slim majority of the public says they “worry” about climate change — they consistently rank it near or at the bottom of their policy concerns. Accordingly, the US public policy machinery has gridlocked on this issue.
Yet the issue continues to burn, absorbing policy makers’ attention and scarce public funds. Worst of all, the paralysis prevents efforts to prepare even for the almost certain repeat of past climate events — as Tropical Storm Sandy showed NYC and several studies have shown for Houston — and distracts attention from other serious environmental problems (e.g., destruction of ocean ecosystems).
How can we resolve this policy deadlock? Eventually, either the weather or science will answer our questions, albeit perhaps at great cost. We could just vote, abandoning the pretense there is any rational basis for US public policy (fyi, neither Kansas nor Alabama voted that Pi = 3).
We can do better. The government can focus the institutions of science on questions of public policy importance. We didn’t wait for the normal course of research to produce an atomic bomb or send men to the moon. We’re paying for it, so the government can set standards for research, as is routinely done for the military and health care industries (e.g., FDA drug approval regulations).
The policy debate turns on the reliability of the predictions of climate models. These can be tested to give “good enough” answers for policy decision-makers so that they can either proceed or require more research. I proposed one way to do this in Climate scientists can restart the climate change debate & win: test the models! — with includes a long list of cites (with links) to the literature about this topic. This post shows that such a test is in accord with both the norms of science and the work of climate scientists.
We can resolve this policy debate. So far America lacks only the will to do so. That will have to come from us, the American public.
The goal: providing a sound basis for public policy
“Thus an extraordinary claim requires “extraordinary” (meaning stronger than usual) proof.”
— By Marcello Truzzi in “Zetetic Ruminations on Skepticism and Anomalies in Science“, Zetetic Scholar, August 1987. See the full text here.
“For such a model there is no need to ask the question ‘Is the model true?’. If ‘truth’ is to be the ‘whole truth’ the answer must be ‘No’. The only question of interest is ‘Is the model illuminating and useful?’”
— G.E.P. Box in “Robustness in the strategy of scientific model building” (1978). He also said “All models are wrong; some are useful.”
Measures to fix climate change range from massive (e.g., carbon taxes and new regulations) to changing the nature of our economic system (as urged by Pope Francis and Naomi Klein
). Such actions requires stronger proof than usual in science (academic disputes are so vicious because the stakes are so small). On the other hand, politics is not geometry; it’s “the art of the possible” (Bismarck, 1867). Perfect proof is not needed. The norms of science can guide us in constructing useful tests.
Successful predictions: the gold standard for validating theories
“Probably {scientists’} most deeply held values concern predictions: they should be accurate; quantitative predictions are preferable to qualitative ones; whatever the margin of permissible error, it should be consistently satisfied in a given field; and so on.”
— Thomas Kuhn in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions
(1962).
“Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory — an event which would have refuted the theory.”
— Karl Popper in Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledge
(1963).
“The ultimate goal of a positive science is the development of a “theory” or, “hypothesis” that yields valid and meaningful (i.e., not truistic) predictions about phenomena not yet observed. … the only relevant test of the validity of a hypothesis is comparison of its predictions with experience.”
— Milton Friedman in “The Methodology of Positive Economics“ from Essays in Positive Economics
(1966).
“Some annoying propositions: Complex econometrics never convinces anyone. … Natural experiments rule. But so do surprising predictions that come true.”
— Paul Krugman in “What have we learned since 2008“ (2016). True as well for climate science.
The policy debate rightly turns on the reliability of climate models. Models produce projections of global temperatures when run with estimates of future conditions (e.g., aerosols and greenhouse gases). When run with observations they produce predictions which can be compared with actual temperatures to determine the model’s skill. These tests are hindcasting, comparing models’ predictions with past temperatures. That’s a problem.
“One of the main problems faced by predictions of long-term climate change is that they are difficult to evaluate. … Trying to use present predictions of past climate change across historical periods as a verification tool is open to the allegation of tuning, because those predictions have been made with the benefit of hindsight and are not demonstrably independent of the data that they are trying to predict.
— “Assessment of the first consensus prediction on climate change“, David J. Frame and Dáithí A. Stone, Nature Climate Change, April 2013.
“…results that are predicted “out-of-sample” demonstrate more useful skill than results that are tuned for (or accommodated).”
— “A practical philosophy of complex climate modelling” by Gavin A. Schmidt and Steven Sherwood, European Journal for Philosophy of Science, May 2015 (ungated copy).
Don’t believe the excuses: models can be thoroughly tested
Models should be tested vs. out of sample observations to prevent “tuning” the model to match known data (even inadvertently), for the same reason that scientists run double-blind experiments). The future is the ideal out of sample data, since model designers cannot tune their models to it. Unfortunately…
“…if we had observations of the future, we obviously would trust them more than models, but unfortunately observations of the future are not available at this time.”
— Thomas R. Knutson and Robert E. Tuleya, note in Journal of Climate, December 2005.
There is a solution. The models from the first four IPCC assessment reports can be run with observations made after their design (from their future, our past) — a special kind of hindcast.
“To avoid confusion, it should perhaps be noted explicitly that the “predictions” by which the validity of a hypothesis is tested need not be about phenomena that have not yet occurred, that is, need not be forecasts of future events; they may be about phenomena that have occurred but observations on which have not yet been made or are not known to the person making the prediction.”
— Milton Friedman, ibid.
“However, the passage of time helps with this problem: the scientific community has now been working on the climate change topic for a period comparable to the prediction and the timescales over which the climate is expected to respond to these types of external forcing (from now on simply referred to as the response). This provides the opportunity to start evaluating past predictions of long-term climate change: even though we are only halfway through the period explicitly referred to in some predictions, we think it is reasonable to start evaluating their performance…”
— Frum and Stone, ibid.
We can run the models as they were originally run for the IPCC in the First Assessment Report (1990), in the Second (1995), and the Third (2001) — using actual emissions as inputs but with no changes of the algorithms, etc. The results allow testing of their predictions over multi-decade periods.
These older models were considered skillful when published, so determination of their skill will help us decide if we now have sufficiently strong evidence to take large-scale policy action on climate change. The cost of this test will be trivial compared to overall cost of climate science research — and even more so compared to the stakes at risk for the world should the high-end impact forecasts prove correct.
Determining models’ skill
“Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory — an event which would have refuted the theory.”
— Karl Popper in Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledge
(1963).
“We stress that adequacy or utility of climate models is best assessed via their skill against more naıve predictions.”
— Mann-Sherwood, ibid.
How do we evaluate the skill of models? A prediction of warming says little, since the world has been warming since the mid-19th century — so continued warming is a “naive” prediction. A simple continuation of trends is one form of baseline against which to compare a model’s predictions.
The literature proposes more sophisticated baselines which raise the bar for success. These tests will produce data, not black and white answers. What would come next in the policy process? For a summary see “The ‘uncertainty loop’ haunting our climate models” by David Roberts at Vox, 23 October 2015.
From “The uncertainty loop haunting our climate models” at VOX, 23 October 2016. Click to enlarge.
Have model predictions been tested?
“The scientific community has placed little emphasis on providing assessments of CMP {climate model prediction} quality in light of performance at severe tests. … CMP quality is thus supposed to depend on simulation accuracy. However, simulation accuracy is not a measure of test severity. If, for example, a simulation’s agreement with data results from accommodation of the data, the agreement will not be unlikely, and therefore the data will not severely test the suitability of the model that generated the simulation for making any predictions.”
— “Should we assess climate model predictions in light of severe tests?” by Joel Katzav in EOS (by the American Geophysical Union), 11 June 2011.
A proposal similar to mine was made by Roger Pielke Jr. in “Climate predictions and observations“, Nature Geoscience, April 2008. Oddly, this has not been done, although there have been simple examinations of model projections (i.e., using estimates of future data, not predictions using observations), countless naive hindcasts (predicting the past using observations available to model developers), and reports of successful predictions of specific components of weather dynamics (useful if it were to be done systematically so an overall “score” was produced).
For a review of this literature see (f) in the For More Information section of my proposal.
Conclusions
In my experience both sides in the public policy debate have become intransigent and excessively confident. Hence the disinterest of both sides in testing since they plan to win by brute force: electing politicians that agree with them. I’ve found a few exceptions, such as climate scientists Roger Pielke Sr. and Judith Curry, and meteorologist Anthony Watts. More common are the many scientists who told me that they shifted to low-profile research topics to avoid the pressure, or have abandoned climate science entirely (e.g., Roger Pielke Jr.).
We — the American public — have to force change in this dysfunctional public policy debate. We pay for most climate science research, and can focus it on providing answers that we need. The alternative is to wait for the weather to answer our questions, after which we pay the costs. They might be high.
Other posts about the climate policy debate
This post is a summary of the information and conclusions from these posts, which discuss these matters in greater detail.
- How we broke the climate change debates. Lessons learned for the future.
- My proposal: Climate scientists can restart the climate change debate – & win.
- Thomas Kuhn tells us what we need to know about climate science.
- Daniel Davies’ insights about predictions can unlock the climate change debate.
- Karl Popper explains how to open the deadlocked climate policy debate.
- Paul Krugman talks about economics. Climate scientists can learn from his insights.
- Milton Friedman’s advice about restarting the climate policy debate.

Problem is against which data?
Exactly. The two camps don’t agree on the accuracy and “truthfulness” of measured temperatures.
Indeed. The first step required is to ban post hoc “correction” of the reference datasets such as Karl et al 2015 and the recent revision of the RSS satellite extraction.
Climatology must be unique of all the ‘sciences’ in permitting constant “correction” of the data. In any other field that would be regarded as fraudulent.
In any other field, problems with your data mean you keep the data but increase the error bars.
That is the problem. So many data bases have been “corrected” (to fit the model?) that the exercise starts getting recursive. If the uncorrected raw data still exists, the testing should be done on that. The tests should take errors in measurement into account, of course, but that should be considered part of the tests.
I have said many times here that it is a nonsense to test the models against HadCRUT4 dataset when many models have been developed before 2010. You cannot calibrate your model by using one dataset and test it against a different one.
But it is even a larger nonsense to validate an ensemble of models when each one uses a different value for the climate sensitivity to carbon dioxide forcing.
Here let me fix it.
The dataset’s average all the data together, models produce global surface data, GCM’s need to not only get the average correct, it needs to do so at the regional level for all major parameters.
Um ! Tropical Storm Sandy, was actually a weather event; not a climate event. And on average it didn’t do much of anything.
Well you can cherry pick some parts of Sandy’s existence and find some local damages, but for the vast majority of its existence, it was just another Atlantic Storm, albeit one that got rather large in area. Only when it got near the US coast did it become a subject for reporters, who can’t ever remember in all recorded history, anything like that happening before.
Nothing about Sandy’s happening, demonstrated anything climatically as having changed. Storms sine then are still ho hum just as they were before. The only persistent remnant of Sandy ever having happened is all the junk built on the coast line that may not have been cleaned up yet.
G
I believe the comment about Sandy was that money that could have been used to improve the storm protection of the shoreline was used instead for ‘Climate Change’ research and prevention.
You obviously, Smith, didn’t live where this ordinary storm slammed into if you think there was little damage.
I’ve been trying to publish that paper for three years. It propagates error through climate model air temperature projections, and shows they are entirely unreliable.
Modelers write angry rejectionist, incompetent reviews. Journal editors run away, screaming with fear. I now have a lot of experience with this. The current of corruption is very strong in climate science, and doesn’t brook an honest analysis.
Pat Frank:
Your experience is not unique, see this.
Richard
I’m guessing our common experience is even more widely distributed, Richard.
Thanks for the links.
You have made really important observations.
You certainly falsifies IPCC’s idea that climate models can be trusted.
Try, try and try again.
Thanks, S or F. Still trying. 🙂
Gee, when all we here from the warmists is “the science is settled” what’s the need for testing the models. Have a little faith, will ya? 🙂
Once again, Mr. Kummer, for some mysterious reason known only to himself, mischaracterizes the AGW “debate” by creating the false impression of more or less equivalent blame for the failure of the science realists to agree with the AGW camp.

Mr. Kummer. There is simply NO DATA to support AGW. The End. The AGWers have yet to make a prima facie case for their conjecture that human CO2 emissions drive climate on earth.
Those who continue to promote AGW in spite of that fact are hustlers, plain and simple.
We already KNOW that the climate models are unskilled.
Apparently, you have not read (among many other model-fail analyses you seem to have missed, such as Roy Spencer’s and Judith Curry’s) Bob Tisdale’s e book: Climate Models Fail;
Available via Amazon and on his site here:
Janice Moore:
Yet again you identify the crux of a matter when you write to Larry Kummer saying
Yes, but Larry Kummer refuses to face that reality.
In the thread which discussed his post where he first asserted on WUWT that a “test” of climate models was not the panacea Kummer pretends, I here told him and explained
Richard
Oops.
I intended to write
In the thread which discussed his post where he first asserted on WUWT that a “test” of climate models is the panacea Kummer pretends,
Sorry.
Richard
Hi, Richard,
You and I disagree about (ssssh… heh), but I am so glad to see that you have been well enough lately to post with your usual vim and vigor. And you get to the nub of the Kummer Conundrum (i.e., why? why does he write what he does?) with the word
.
Either Mr. Kummer is very confused or is not forthright about what he is really arguing for. In every thread below his articles, commenter after commenter firmly and carefully points him to the facts. He then just goes ahead and writes another article based on the same errors. And trolls come along to back him up…. hm.
Well, at least his posts provide an excellent opportunity to get out the facts about GCM’s and AGW human CO2 conjecture… so someone out there can learn.
Take care,
Janice
What Janice says. AGW (or whatever you want to call it) is simply the “excuse”. The goal is (by Liberals) redistribution-ism, (by Greens) destruction of western industrial capacity, (by the young & naive) Socialism, and (by academics) the continuation of the Grant Gravy Train.
Warming – and models – and fact – have NOTHING to do with it. Never had. never will.
Janice I think you’re missing the point – we may know the models have failed but the wider public does not – if you do a “public” test rather than those which are rarely seen, except for those of us who read websites such as this, it could well remove the impasse to proper open scientific debate. It can seem that both sides are locked into this dispute and people like to be locked in to things – what would we all do with our spare time if there was no climate change debate?
Mr. Spurrier: The facts are already known. As you wisely point out, the key is to make them known. PUBLIC EDUCATION is, thus, the key. Model-re-testing is not needed. They are known-failed, unskilled, unfit for purpose.
Atta woman! Way to go Janice!
There is a very amusing file in the climategate release where a programmer tries to follow and ‘update’ a climate model.
It is the typical programmers nightmare of bad coding, tangled spaghetti code with many code jumps, undocumented code, calculations and rationale.
That programmer did nor redesign nor rewrite the code; they simply updted wht they could understand enough so the thing would run again and spew reams of useless output.
In the legitimate world, programmers and engineers that are genuinely responsible for their code would be fired for a series of wrong models. There is no corrective process in Climatology for better models, only rewards for staying the course.
Again, back in the real world, programmers and engineers disassemble models after every run and compare input, results, output, process and timing of the entire program to ensure they understand why and what the output was.
Any failed models could expect managers and modelers in offices of higher-ups to explain in detail why the model was wrong.
And this is for models only meant to advise employees and managers, not have their outputs treated as gospel.
Model output gospel are science fiction, especially as climatology uses them.
Thank yooooouuu, THEO! 🙂 Heh. Theo thinking… “Hm. Want to say, ‘Atta girl,’ but, she’s awfully touchy about that kind of thing… hm.”
What a gentleman you are. Thank you for your respect (wow, is that a rare gift for me!).
Just FYI: If you would say “boy” in any context (well, I THINK “any” context, lol…) I hope you will use “girl” with me, i.e., “atta girl” would be just fine. Going out with the “girls” (for a fun evening) is another example. And I am ONCE AGAIN talking too much about OT stuff.
Just don’t say, “Well, bless her heart, she tried.” lolololol
Hope all is well with you down there — are the magnolias in bloom yet? And, btw, I often and often enjoy your comments and don’t say anything…. lol. usually because I have already been talking way too much on that particular thread.
Take care,
Janice
#(:))
Janice:
Interesting thinking.
Only, I am married to a redhead.
Even I can learn some things…
I’m not fond of calling any adults diminutives. There is a gray area where the body and mind are two different maturities, but even then a diminutive is insulting. Far better to err on the side of giving them false maturity.
All bets are off when talking to ladies near or above the age of twenty nine; when I’m more likely to be threatened with emasculation for using terms like, ‘excuse me, Maam’. Almost certain to cause pancake makeup to smolder into incense.
There are plenty of non-diminutive comradely terms for friends.
Magnolias are not in bloom yet. I haven’t seen much of anything in bloom yet. Daffodils are growing, crocuses should be out or past.
Our Bradford pear is usually our first plant to flower, down the road redbuds and a few witch hazels and shadbushes will flower in the woods. The pussy willow will bud out just afterwards or can be cut and brought indoors for early budding. A buck really laid into our pussy willow last fall stripping the velvet off his antlers.
Virginia bluebirds, goldfinches and have been nest spot searching around the house and looking in when they perch on the screens.
I’m looking forward to when the windows can stay open and the bird songs enter.
I do enjoy reading your comments also along with many that you inspire. The muse of climate? Think about it.
ATheoK-
“Only, I am married to a redhead. ”
You then sir, are a very lucky man in many ways. And yes, lucky to be alive is one of them. 🙂
(I am a redheaded woman, so I can speak to these things)
Dear Mr. Theo,
Thanks for the lovely reply. I thought you were from the deep south! Even in my home area, about an hour due north of Seattle, WA, the pussywillows have come and gone by the end of February. Their silver softness always brightened our Januarys. Well, wherever you are, it sounds like you have many beautiful things to give joy to your poet’s heart (you appreciate, even if you do not write poetry…).
Re: “I’m married …” — JUST TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR my friendliness was in no way an “overture.” Maybe you were mainly emphasizing the “redhead part.” Yeah, Pamela Gray and Aphan (I see (in comment above), now — and it makes sense, O Bright Fiery One of Fervent and Powerful Opinions 🙂 ) bear out the stereotype as, I guess your wife does…
Re: “Ma’am” — why would that be an insult? (and I am waaay beyond 29, btw — and except for stage make-up, I will NEVER wear “pancake” foundation — mineral-based powder is much lovelier and more “natural”). I LIKE it when men open doors and speak respectfully. And I try to do what I can to reciprocate, e.g., by using “Mr.” until they seem to have given permission to be familiar (I called you “Theo” because I assumed it was okay and should not have). I think we can have equality of worth along with chivalry. Vive la difference! (and there is definitely a difference — to be mutually admired and respected, imo).
Well, re: phrases like “girls night out” and the like, I thought I’d just mention it as being okay with me, since a lot of men will talk of “going out with the boys” and they don’t mean it perjoratively. (In your ear –I’m fond of such “terms of endearment” I guess, because… I’mreallyaten-year-oldgirlinaverygooddisguise). Thanks for giving me the respect of someone much older than I will EVER be, lololo.
And, thank you, for your kind words.
Spring is almost here! 🙂
Janice
Janice:
Don’t bother with mister, Theo works just fine. All of my best friends use it, that is, when they’re not peeved over some prank.
Married to a redhead was not marking possession, but an understanding of a lady redhead’s wit and finely honed sense of justice; not forgetting their senses of punishment or reward and that the wise avoid a redhead’s anger whenever possible.
I use ‘boy’ just as infrequently as I use girl and almost exclusively for children 13 and younger.
I will use ‘boys with toys’ in a generic sense, but that might be it.
Apparently many of the ladies I’ve met consider use of the title ‘maam’ as belonging to someone much older than themselves. After more than a few threats, I’ve curbed my use of the word. ‘My lady’, works fairly well; a good thing since my memory for names is terrible.
I’ve lived North of Boston and in New Orleans, grew up in Pennsylvania and am currently in Virginia. I’ve spent a lot of time in the west, and love traipsing in the desert as well as any forested mountain.
Of course it is spring in the NW, such tepid winters… Try spending a winter in Nebraska and finding that negative temperatures turn transmission oil to thick goo. Warming up the engine does zilch for transmissions.
I’ve a friend that moved from North Dakota to Minneapolis. He thought he’d get a jump on the trip by loading the truck, sleeping overnight and then driving to Minneapolis early in the morning. He forgot about the sheer cold inertia of his belongings and shivered all the way to Minneapolis with the heater going full blast.
Every warm spurt of spring we’ve had this year has been followed by a solid hit of cold, so while spring is here as animal behavior attests, the plants are a little behind. A good thing too, I still have pruning to do.
Aphan:
I am pleased to hear about your red headedness. I have always had a weakness for freckle faced ladies whose ethereal beauty holds me enthralled; while their fierce emotions and loyalty cause me to smile idiotically.
Dear Theo,
I wish I could just talk away, here, but I’ve had people get very angry with me for that so please forgive me, but, I cannot give your thoughtful letter to me the response which it deserves. Thank you, so much, for taking the time. I enjoyed reading it very much. Your wife is sure blessed to have a husband who so appreciates her personal qualities. Now, you be sure to TELL her all that, too! (you probably do, but, just in case… on her behalf, I wrote that).
Aphan! Check out what Theo wrote to you! It will make your
weekyear (well, it would mine)!Just good to know there are good men in the world, too. You shine, Theo K! 🙂
Janice
“””””…..
Aphan
March 9, 2016 at 7:00 pm
ATheoK-
“Only, I am married to a redhead. ” …..”””””
Can you (both) be more specific ?
Strawberry Blonde/Red/Ginger/whatever ??
And yes; both very lucky.
g
For you redheaded women: I am reliably informed, by a redheaded female medical type, that redheaded women genetically have the highest pain threshold of all people. Agony that incapacitates any of the rest of us merely p*sses redheaded women off — hence the stereotype.
Hey, I wasn’t going to argue with her. 8)
That’s the indispensable value of open debate. Even if you don’t convince the True Believer on the other side, you still may convince the cooler heads in the room who don’t have a dog in the fight. Or at least motivate them to look deeper into the issue.
Spot on Janice. I wrote in similar vein before seeing your better explanation.
Hi, Ron of the wonderful bird and wildlife website (http://wingedhearts.org/ ),
Thank you! I’m glad you commented where I saw it here. Otherwise, I would have missed your delightfully unvarnished and precisely accurate comment far below. Rarely is a dispute truly 50-50, usually, it is more like 70-30 and the bogus-science AGW “debate” is more like … like 99.99-.01. The moral equivalency fallacy is almost always a crass attempt at manipulation.
Great minds 🙂
Your WUWT ally for science truth and love of wildlife,
Janice
P.S. I came across your fine Aug. ?, 2009 Fred-in-bed-with-and-without-blanket analogy (boy, some people on that thread sure did not understand what the purpose of an ANALOGY was). Nice job!
Thanks do much Janice. I have been doing some investigative research into US temperature adjustments. I hope to complete in about a month. What I have seen so far is quite a surprise.
Looking forward to reading about what you discover 🙂
A model requires data as input. If you had good data – that is raw data that was not being manipulated – you should be able to produce a set of predictions on broad future climate attributes (a gradual temperature change over a large area, an increase of high intensity storms, etc). Getting scientists to agree on a margin of error would be interesting.
However, I don’t think you can meet the first criteria – good input data. Besides data coming from a multitude of different instruments, situated in a vaiety of ways, moved around, and polluted by industrial expansion (air conditioners, roads, buidings, etc.), you have people manipulating the data again and again to “fix it” introducing more bias. Satellite data would come closest to “good raw data” and that only goes back half a century limiting your hind casts.
A computer model is never better than the data it is fed.
I think it is the manipulation of data and the hiding of data and methods that is the primary force behind all the distrust. If you will not publish raw data and methods used to adjust it – all of it – it isn’t useful for basing science on.
You’ve got it half right. Aside from the data, you need an accurate model. rgb has explained several times on this site the pathetic short-comings of the algorithms currently used to “model” (I use that term loosely) the global climate. It frankly wouldn’t matter if you could measure pressure, temperature, humidity, and composition of the atmosphere, terrasphere, and aquasphere to six decimal places at ten meter intervals from the Marianas trench to 100 kilometers up once per second. None of the “black boxes” you could pour this data into are fit for their purpose.
“””””….. “Thus an extraordinary claim requires “extraordinary” (meaning stronger than usual) proof.”
— By Marcello Truzzi in “Zetetic Ruminations on Skepticism and Anomalies in Science“, Zetetic Scholar, August 1987. See the full text here. …..”””””
Well some slick words. Carl Sagan used the exact same wording.
But it’s BS
Any scientific claim requires (if that’s even possible) requires rigorous proof.
And as we all know; there is NO proof that is not always facing the threat of that one experiment that disproves whatever scientific claim.
I have never seen anything; or everything, related to climate modeling, that gives me any more than a ho hum response. Because I’m not aware of any “climate model” or GCM if you wish, that in any way represents a model that in any way resembles the actual physical planet we live on.
You can’t morph three dimensional heat energy fluxes, into a one dimensional flow, when your model does not even have simultaneity of data in multiple locations. Without real time Temperature differences, you can’t have real heat flows.
The “anomaly” approach is just that; an anomaly, in lieu of real physically meaningful measurements and observations. Anomaly “data” can be used for only one purpose, and that is statistical machinations, because Temperature anomalies are not physical data. They cannot be observed or measured anywhere; and the statistics is just that; a formal body of numerical origami, that anybody can read in a text book, but nobody can use to compute ANY observational number that you don’t already know. All statistical “information”, is information about statistical algorithms, it isn’t additional information about any data set, that the set itself does not already contain; including the possibility of no information at all, when no two members of a valid data set are related in any way whatsoever, but for which the statistical algorithmic results are equally as valid, as if every member of the data set is calculable by a closed form mathematical equation.
But I could certainly do without the politicians with agendas, related to climate, energy, and related global matters.
G
Well said. Essentially, the entire quantification exercise for global temperature is simply chasing the distribution and transfer of solar isolation as it moves through the system and then back out to space.
The energy delivered isn’t hiding, being trapped, or in any way being altered by man. It is just too abundant and actively moving around to pin down with our tools for measurement. Yet folks pretend they can measure a .8 C differential over a year.
Comedic if not so sad.
At the top of this WUWT post is: “My experience shows that neither side of the climate wars has much interest in a fair test; both sides want to win through politics.”
By “both sides” I assume that Larry Kummer means the “usual suspects” versus the skeptics. If that is the case, Kummer slights us skeptics as wanting to win via a political route. I have never seen that from skeptics. We are the ones arguing the science, while the usual suspects use ad hominen attacks, appeal to authority, and other logical fallacies to form their attacks.
george e. smith posts: “I could certainly do without the politicians with agendas, related to climate, energy, and related global matters.”
Spoken like a true skeptic.
He also wrote: “Any scientific claim requires … rigorous proof.”
I declare george e. smith a bona fide skeptic against CAGW. I’m not so sure about Mr Kummer, who seems to fast and loose with his word choice.
More on Kummer’s apparent bias for the Warmists: in his article, Kummer presents a graphic reproduced from “The uncertainty loop haunting our climate models” at VOX, 23 October 2016.
The upper-left box seems unbiased as it asks how much greenhouse gas will humans produce through 2100?
The upper-right box reveals sotto voce bias when it asks “how much will global average temperature rise in response to those gases?” This assumes that the climatic response of rising temperatures in response to increasing CO2 and other GHGs has been proven; but what about the counter-example of “The Pause” as covered in WUWT and elsewhere?
The lower-right box assumes a temperature rise will occur from increased GHG. This reveals Warmist bias.
The lower-left assumes that the effects of the assumed warming will damage human health and economies. This has yet to be proven! Maybe the authors want to go back to life in The Little Ice Age? There are many examples of societal benefits from increased warmth, which may not occur (see “The Pause”).
“…neither side of the climate wars has much interest in a fair test; both sides want to win through politics.”
True. The AGW proponents push their ideology via politics, not science. The skeptics have tried science with the other side, but to no avail – so “politics” it must be.
“at VOX, 23 October 2016.”
It said “2015
“
I had always thought about this after reading the book “Nonlinear Time Series Analysis” with regards to modeling and testing how “good” your model is at forecasting. Went into within-sample and and out of sample predictions and the pros and cons of each. Definitely time to call for some action on looking at these models they made. Hell, a lot of that can be tested using some stats packages in R, adopted from TISEAN.
Most of them probably have never heard of the book or Nonlinear statistics because they are stuck trying to prove Climate is Linear and we are only headed for certain DOOM! The real question to ask is, did they seek to make their models without bias to warming only warming as the possible outcome? My best guess is no……..
A very interesting programme on the BBC on 8th March 2016 called ‘Saving Science from the Scientists’ . Does this represent a change in attitude in the BBC?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072jdqm#play
It covered irregularities with much scientific research, but not a mention of climate change research. I wonder why?
I understand that the BBC is forbidden by the government to discuss the subject.
it may be a lot easier than that.
please see
https://www.academia.edu/21366801/THE_SPURIOUSNESS_OF_CORRELATIONS_BETWEEN_CUMULATIVE_VALUES
AGW has always been about politics and ideology, and not science. No proof can be presented that would persuade True Believers otherwise,
I will make a prediction about the results of testing the models.
The warmists will say “Yes, we know that the early models did not provide accurate predictions. BUT the ones we have now are much better, and will work…
DG, there is a simple debunking reply. For details, see my guest post here on models. Computational limitations force model parameterization. And parameterization cannot avoid the attribution problem. We know there was not enough change in CO2 to cause the temp rise from ~1920 to ~1945. Natural variation. We know that period is essentially indistinguishable from ~1975 to ~2000. How much of the latter period rise is attributable to natural variation? AGW presumes none. Core to the warmunist belief and written into the IPCC charter. Why TAR went with Mann’s hockey stick. Flat handle erases natural variation shown by MWP and LIA.
…And parameterization cannot avoid the attribution problem. …
Ah, but our new (waves hands) clever statistics avoids that problem. It’s very complicated, so you’ll just have to take our word for it. And anyone who doesn’t is a ‘D-word’, and shouldn’t be listened to…
DG, I concede your point. Cause the warmunists have already done just that. Regards from a dodgy but not yet geezer.
In the 80’s I did experimental stress analysis on vehicle frames for FORD. The finite element analysis never matched the experimental stress analysis until several iterations when they found out what was wrong with their model (boundary conditions, usually). Now, with thousands (maybe millions) of comparisons to the real world I’ll bet they can do a finite element model of a vehicle frame and get it right the first time. Without those thousands of real world comparisons under their belt there would be exactly zero chance of them getting it write on the first try. But this is where the climate modelers find themselves. For them to validate correctly the first time would be like me swinging a hole-in-one with my first swing at the golf course (and I don’t play golf).
Scott, I spend most of the 80’s and 90’s as an electronics’s simulation expert, Analog, Digital, Timing. It’s really part art, you have to understand the prople input for the type of simulation you’re running, as well as understanding what it did.
But they have the whole physical results analysis all wrong, they blame determinism and that climate is chaotic, weather is chaotic, I’m not sure climate is.
And that’s what they are trying to get out of averaging suites of model runs, the general boundary of the variations.
But this is all wrong, a timing analysis is a boundary condition simulation, requires different input conditions.
GCM are a deterministic simulation, different inputs will matter, and we can’t measure the data we need to the required resolution, and if we could, we’d be able to measure if Co2 has an effect or not. But the GCM will never be right if it has the relationship of water and water vapor with Co2 wrong.
Scott, I also worked for Fords.
micro, they get out EXACTLY what they want to get out of the models, “scare stories” for the IPCC & politicians.
It is not about “Climate Science”, it is about power and financial control.
Does the graph of interglacial periods over the last half million years shed any light on that? How about this graph of the Holocene?
If we apply a filter to a chaotic system we should see a smooth graph and the attractors should be obvious. The smoothness of the graph should not fool us into thinking the system is not chaotic. The problem is that all our figures for global temperature are derived from some kind of filter.
Given the chaotic nature of the system, certainly for weather and perhaps for climate, I am skeptical about our ability to agree on a valid test for models. I would say the problem approaches impossibility.
CommieBob-
“I would say the problem approaches impossibility.”
The IPCC already said that:
“The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.” -IPCC 3rd Assessment Report 2001
Aphan, another way of saying “Don’t blame us”.
Scott, I had a rather rudimentary course in ‘strength of materials’ in my high school mechanics (Physics) courses (I went to an unusual and remarkable high school), but I later on (recently) got fiercely interested in the strength of composite materials; not because I wanted to know how easy it was to break a golf club over your knees, but I wanted to design my own type of efficient fly fishing rods (power rods for salt water).
So I dug out my old high school (replacement) text book; Timoshenko; which I guess puts me in the Stanford camp, and googled a whole lot of information about carbon and glass epoxy fiver composites. I got on the list for a composites journal that was heavily into the aircraft and space applications.
So I read in one of those journals, a very interesting paper about a sort of round robin inter-agency composites modeling regimens.
Evidently, NASA, the Air Force, Some British equivalent, NIST and some others, all had their own models of fiber composite modeling, including using things like basalt fibers, and other weird stuff.
So they got together and defined a homework problem. To design some relatively simple three dimensional structure to be fabricated using some relatively widely available technologies, probably a carbon fiber epoxy resin structure, and each team could use their own presumably available fiber composite layers, to design this gizmo.
I believe they then all exchanged their design information so each could check the others designs based on the other’s methodology, to catch simple procedural errors.
Then I believe an independent third part, was contracted, to build every one of these gizmos according to the designer’s recipe, so as to remove possible fabricational differences between the protagonists.
Then the third party tested the different structures, eventually to failure, to see how well the parts performed to calculated design, and to compare both the designs and also the modeling methods.
As I recall, there was quite a disparity between the design methods, and also a spread in how each design panned out in a fabricated part.
But bottom line, there was a pretty good confidence established for at least those participants, that they could design with suitable safety margins, and create parts that worked with reasonable surety of their soundness.
End result was that my rod blank design problem was much simpler, being basically one dimensional. Somebody actually (a friend) built me my own custom rod out of S-glass composites, that will stop any fish smaller than a Los Angeles class submarine.
I actually used a sort of one dimensional finite element analysis, to compute the bending flexure characteristics of that rod. In the process, I also spectacularly blew up some carbon fiber rods in my back yard, by hanging weights on them in extreme angular deflection configurations. Actually located and cured a weakness in one of their production carbon rods doing that (and got some free rods to boot).
Some computer modeling actually works.
G
Nooooo … that ends badly.
To quote an old saying.
All models are wrong. Some models are useful.
Mosh frequently says this (up/down thread already I believe).
While some without simulation experience might deny the second part, Some of us with experience know it is true, so what we are arguing is that they are not useful for stated purposes, and have yet to even prove out their theory of operation (ie Co2 drives surface temps).
Steve on the other, hand thinks we should accept that premise as true.
No one here is disputing that computer models can and do work. They work in all kinds of fields and for all kinds of purposes. Some things can be accurately modeled.
But there is a HUGE difference between modeling something not very complex -like material strength of specific given materials and modeling something that is VERY complex-like the climate. When dealing with substances for which we have known, predictable parameters, it’s easy to predict with accuracy how those substances will respond to specific and controlled pressures, densities, temperatures etc. It’s possible because you can control all factors but one and see how that individual factor responds in all cases, and then swap it out for another factor.
There is no climate model currently in the world that can mimic day to day, real world climate accurately…much less PREDICT future world climate. There is no computer in the world currently that can handle every single aspect and parameter of the globe and it’s atmosphere currently known with the resolution required to do it, and we don’t know and understand every aspect of our climate in the first place.
This is how a task like this should be done. I believe the Space Shuttle had 3 different white room developed Operating Systems, one for each of it’s systems. So a flaw in one is not likely done in the other two.
You can’t share code and expect to validate the theory by comparing different implementations that aren’t different.
micro6500 (and Richard Courtney)
They LOVE to quote the Box statement out of context as if it says something that it does not say.
“All models are wrong. Some are useful. ”
They quote it as if it can be read as saying “All models are wrong, but all models are useful.” Which is does not say. It says SOME (of all) are useful. It also does not say “Some models are wrong. All models are useful.”
Now, whether or not something is “useful” is in the eye of the beholder of that thing. I have a broken shovel…the head broke off from the handle. It is no longer useful as a shovel, but I used the handle as reinforcement on an outdoor arbor and the head has been used for various needs…so both pieces are indeed useful to ME. But I know many people that would chuck both in the garbage and just go get another shovel without a second thought.
So while it’s POSSIBLE that all models are useful…if you count using them as paperweights or door stops or step stools or just to keep a hard drive warm on a cold winter’s night…I think that Box meant SOME…when he said SOME…and he never, ever said that climate models were useful. So it’s odd that they bring up his quote as if its some kind of score for their team. 🙂
” So while it’s POSSIBLE that all models are useful”
They’re pretty good propaganda!
Naw…they are prolific at it…that doesn’t mean they are good at it. If they were good at it, it wouldn’t look, taste and smell like propaganda…but it does, on every level. Of course, first they wrote endless papers putting forth the idea that propaganda wasn’t “bad” it was helpful. But you read one of those papers and it won’t come off your hands for days, and if you get it on your clothes…forgetaboutit. 🙂
Bonus points to the first reader who posts a comment that accurately summaries the point of this proposal — which the comments so far suggest was not as obvious as I intended.
The point of this proposal=(yawn) is, again, to end the “gridlock” etc that you believe is keeping us from doing other things that you believe we should be doing.
Problem #1- the US Government was designed specifically for this purpose….to promote GRIDLOCK when both sides have valid questions, doubts, reasons for acting on any issue in which they feel there is not sufficient evidence or information available at the time to make the BEST decision possible. Checks and balances my friend.
Problem #2-you seem to think that the vast majority of people in the US actually agree with your altruistic positions and thus, it’s as easy as merely channeling them all in the same direction, which would automatically result in your desired outcome. Cognitive biases my friend. You’d be surprised how many people think differently than you do.
Problem #3- Climate models today can only predict the WEATHER with acceptable accuracy up to about 48 hours in advance. Every hour into the “future” past that point, the models become increasingly less accurate. Watch your local news for a week or so. Watch their 5 day forecast vs their 10 day forecast and see how they change as the “future” gets closer to the “present”. Now…if local weather models that only have to take local factors into consideration (vs taking global factors into consideration) and have oodles of daily, hourly, local records taken from observations in that area in the past to work with, cannot predict just that local weather with any accuracy beyond 10 days into the future, it is IRRATIONAL to believe that there could be global climate model that could do it beyond THAT time frame.
Problem #4-We already KNOW what the weather/climate was going to do from 1990-today…because it has happened already. The climate models of the past, did NOT predict what did happen accurately, because they did not then, and still do not today, accurately represent all aspects of our climate. Some aspects were not included at all. Some were misrepresented based upon what the modeler fed into them. Some interacted with each other in ways the modelers did not expect or predict then, and that are STILL NOT understood well enough today. If we go “back in time” and put in the actual data we now have from “the future” into those same models, you no longer have a “predictive model”!!! You have an observational model….a computer simply replicating a known past!! Well DUH! It’s just another HIND cast….and it would in NO WAY mean that the models can be trusted to predict the unknown future!
Climate models will never be, and SHOULD never be, accepted as evidence upon which to base current or future policies (by any rational, logical, intelligent humans) UNTIL the day comes that a running model contains every single aspect of our globe’s climate, accurately tracks every single one of those aspects daily, in real time, for a satisfactory period of time, and is THEN run into the future for a given period of time (creates a prediction) and then compared with real world observations as the time between when the prediction was made and the date of the prediction come together. In other words, there is a VALIDATED model that is accurate in both current climate as well as future climate. A model that PASSES the test, so to speak.
“Climate models today can only predict the WEATHER with acceptable accuracy up to about 48 hours in advance. Every hour into the “future” past that point, the models become increasingly less accurate.”
Models are pretty good at predicting that (NH) temperatures in July will be warmer than in December. They may even be better at predicting the average temperatures at a specific location for next July vs temperature at that location at a specific time next month. That they cannot predict weather does not mean they cannot predict climate.
“Models are pretty good at predicting that (NH) temperatures in July will be warmer than in December. They may even be better at predicting the average temperatures at a specific location for next July vs temperature at that location at a specific time next month. That they cannot predict weather does not mean they cannot predict climate.”
My golly be! I’m a model! I can predict that the temperatures outside my house in July will indeed be warmer than in December! I can even accurately predict that for the next 40 years and hindcast it for the past 40 with perfect accuracy! Someone give me a billion dollars for being an accurate model!
I done read me some historical geological books, and I’m fairly confident that I can predict that the climate is going to do what it has done over and over again…it’s going to warm up until it gets as warm as it’s gonna get, and then it’s going to start to cool down again and get colder and colder. Then we’ll have a spell of cold climate, ice will grow and advance…till the system changes again…like it always has…and starts to warm up again. I don’t need no fancy computers or programmers or grant funds…just an observational record from empirical evidence and the massive scientific literature that has been collected on this planet since humans learned how to read the movement of the stars. The overwhelming consensus from the evidence is-
Earths climate is constantly changing in one of two directions-warmer or colder. Sometimes it happens really FAST, sometimes it happens slowly, but it is always changing.
“Hey Earl….there’s seashells in this here field!” (which is currently more than a hundred miles from the shore)
“Well golly Fred….maybe some child done brought a bucket of sea shells up from the coast and dropped em here…”
Earl and Fred dig about. There are millions of sea shells, in deep layers of the earth. And all over town too! Reason leads to the conclusion that at some point in Earth’s past…that entire region was covered by oceans! Amazing!
Now, perhaps, based on the evidence, do you, seaice1, think we should start a movement to Save the Oceans? Obviously they have receded from where they once were, and must be drying up or being sucked into some kind of drain system….but for the earth to have changed SO DRASTICALLY….something unnatural or unprecedented must have occurred! But wait….which state was the “natural, normal, perfect state”?….the oceans being so high they reached Earl’s land….or them now being so far away? Did something unnatural, abnormal happen which caused them to rise….or was it something unnatural, abnormal that caused them to recede to where they are now? Or should they be somewhere in between?????
Change doesn’t scare me in the slightest. Stupid on the other hand terrifies me.
seaice1:
Climate models cannot predict the climate of the Earth because each model is of a different climate system and, therefore, at most only one unidentified model is of the Earth’s climate system.
I have repeatedly explained this on WUWT including an explanation to Larry Kummer when he previously made the same silly assertion as he has again made in his above essay.
Richard
Richard. That is why we can not have a perfectly accurate or exact model. That does not preclude a useful model.
Aphan,
“Problem #2-you seem to think that the vast majority of people in the US actually agree with your altruistic positions and thus, it’s as easy as merely channeling them all in the same direction…”
I lost interest at this point. Quite delusional. I said nothing even remotely similar.
From FM-“Aphan,
“Problem #2-you seem to think that the vast majority of people in the US actually agree with your altruistic positions and thus, it’s as easy as merely channeling them all in the same direction…”
I lost interest at this point. Quite delusional. I said nothing even remotely similar.”
I never said you SAID that. I said “You seem to think” that…which is based upon YOUR statements like this:
“We can resolve this policy debate. So far America lacks only the will to do so. That will have to come from us, the American public.”
“We — the American public — have to force change in this dysfunctional public policy debate. We pay for most climate science research, and can focus it on providing answers that we need. The alternative is to wait for the weather to answer our questions, after which we pay the costs. They might be high.”
Now…I’m willing to be entirely wrong here. So please, rather than declare your lack of interest, and project delusion upon me, how about you clarify a few things?
#1-do you believe that the vast majority of Americans do or do not agree with your positions..such as (1-that we can solve this debate with a model test 2-that we need to be doing something to protect ourselves against future known-to-recur climate disasters 3-that because we pay for most of the climate science research-we can indeed focus it on providing the answers that we need)
Because if the American public lacks the “will” to do something…and only that “will” can force the change you believe is required…and you DO NOT THINK that the vast majority of people in the US actually agree with your positions in the first place….dude….you’re pretty much hosed before you even begin. I mean, it would completely irrational and illogical to even ATTEMPT to get the American public to use their collective “will” to accomplish something they don’t even agree with on the most basic level! I mean…isn’t that pretty much a definition of “delusional” thinking?
seaice1:
As usual, you ignore what I wrote and pretend I wrote something else.
You write this non sequitur
in response to my having written to you
I did NOT say, suggest or imply that “we can not have a perfectly accurate or exact model”.
On the contrary, I suggested that one unidentified model may represent the climate system of the real Earth.
And I explained that the present situation DOES “preclude a useful model” because all except at most one unidentified model is wrong, and a model that gives wrong indications is WORSE than no model.
I can only suppose models that give wrong indications are “useful” to your political objectives.
Richard
“I can even accurately predict that for the next 40 years and hindcast it for the past 40 with perfect accuracy!” You cannot even predict tomorrows temperature with perfect accuracy. You cannot even state todays temperature with perfect accuracy. You can predict that July will be hotter, but that is not what you say you expect of climate models, -you require accurate predictions. Merely “hotter than today” will not do for you to consider climate models useful.
You say “Climate models will never be, and SHOULD never be, accepted as evidence upon which to base current or future policies…UNTIL the day comes that a running model contains every single aspect of our globe’s climate, accurately tracks every single one of those aspects daily, in real time”
Yet you you happily use a model to predict next July will be warmer than December, without being able to predict every single aspect of the Globe’s climate. Do you see the inconsistency? Using your criteria we should not stock up on winter fuel and de-icer.
“Someone give me a billion dollars for being an accurate model!” No, you are using a model to make the prediction.
“it’s going to warm up until it gets as warm as it’s gonna get, and then it’s going to start to cool down again and get colder and colder.” Probably accurate, but not useful unless you can say when it will get warm and how warm.
Your analogy with the seashells is pointless. A meteorite destroyed the dinosaurs, does that mean I should not be worried if a planet-buster was heading for Earth?
“Stupid on the other hand terrifies me.” Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Richard – “And I explained that the present situation DOES “preclude a useful model” because all except at most one unidentified model is wrong, and a model that gives wrong indications is WORSE than no model.”
Look at the quote in the post – all models are wrong but some are useful. Because all models except one are wrong does not mean they are not useful.
The Newtonian model of the solar syatem is wrong, but it is very useful.
seaice1:
I began my reply to you saying, As usual, you ignore what I wrote and pretend I wrote something else.
You have responded to that by doing it again!
You state some of what I wrote but you have ignored everything I wrote and you provide another falsehood that I refuted when you previously provided it.
You now say
NO!
A scientific model is right when it makes predictions that agree with observed reality to within the inherent errors of the observations.
A scientific model is wrong when it makes predictions that fail to agree with observed reality to within the inherent errors of the observations.
Scientists amend or scrap wrong models and NEVER USE wrong models as predictive tools.
The Newtonian model of the solar system is right for its stated accuracy within the range of conditions in which it is still used: that is why it is useful.
And you have written the nonsense I have here refuted in response to my having said to you
Average wrong is wrong and – as I said – a model that gives wrong indications is WORSE than no model.
Clearly, your misrepresentations demonstrate that your definition of “useful” is anything that supports your political objectives.
Richard
OK Richard – you are using your own definition of “wrong”. You say “A scientific model is right when it makes predictions that agree with observed reality to within the inherent errors of the observations.”
What doe you mean by “inherent error of the observations”?
Say we have a model for desease spread. The model predicts 10,000 people will get the disease. We have excellent health recording, so we can measure to the nearest person. We find that 9,950 actually got the disease. That is not accurate within the inherent error of the observations. The errror is 1 and the result is off by 50 times that. Nevertheless, I think it would be a very useful model.
Say we have a new disease. The infection parameters are not yet fully known, so the model is not as accurate as the one above. The model predicts that in the first week there will be 1000 infections, with confidence limits of 500 to 1500. The result comes in at 450. The model is wrong, but is it useful? What should we do? Abandon the whole idea of modelling infections? Or possibly acknowledge that we don’t know everything yet and refine the model?
More serious is this statement:
“Climate models cannot predict the climate of the Earth because each model is of a different climate system and, therefore, at most only one unidentified model is of the Earth’s climate system.”
How does this make sense if we use your definition of right? Why is it not possible to have millions of climate models that all produce predictions within the errors of the observations? You say the models cannot predict the climate because each model is different, and therefore only one can be a model of the actual system. The way you have put it means that you think there can only be one right model. In fact, by your definition, there can be unlimited right models.
No model will exactly reproduce all aspects of the system it is modelling.
seaice1:
How dare you!
I am NOT using my “own definition of “wrong”. I am stating what a scientific model does.
And you explain with your illustration of a medical model that you don’t know what is by “inherent error of the observations”. In that example there is a sampling error and a model error. Both are important.
But with the typical arrogant ignorance of a troll you proclaim that the principles of sampling and modeling don’t matter because you know nothing about them.
Your twaddle is wasting space in this thread.
The facts are that
(a) Climate models cannot predict the climate of the Earth because each model is of a different climate system and, therefore, at most only one unidentified model is of the Earth’s climate system.
And
(b) Average wrong is wrong.
And
(c) You are responding to my pointing out those facts with evasion, obfuscation and nonsense.
I will not ‘feed the troll’ any more because everybody can see I have refuted your nonsense.
Richard
Richard -you will see in post I ask you what you meant by inherent error of the observations, so no need to get on your high horse.
I ask you for an explanation of your reasoning. I ask you why it is not possible for more than one model to produce answers that are within the inherent error of the observations.
Specifically, you say “at most only one unidentified model is of the Earth’s climate system.”
I answer that no model is of the Earth’s climate system. All models are simplifications and approximations.
Newton provided one model of how things move. Another is general relativity. Are you saying that since there can only be one model of how things move, then Newton is wrong?
I am seeking to understand what you are saying. I have stated how it appears to me. If I am right, then I don’t see how your argument stands. If I am wrong please correct me.
seaice1:
Your twaddle becomes more ridiculous and offensive with each of your posts.
Your evasion by use of an untrue medical anology is NOT relevant.
On the other hand, you clearly have not read (or have been too thick to understand) the explanation I provided in my link to an earlier post that I now provide you for the third time in this thread. The link fully explains that at most only one of the models emulates the climate system of the real Earth.
The models are NOT simplified models of the Earth’s climate system.
All except at most one of them is a model of a different system.
Also, I said
You have replied by asking me if I am saying “the Newtonian model is wrong”. When you pass the second grade in Junior school then you will have learned that the word “right” does NOT mean the same as the word “wrong”.
And you conclude with this disingenuous falsehood
NO! If you were “seeking to understand” my clear statements then you would have read the link to my explanation that I have now provided for you three times. In truth it is blatantly obvious that you are really trying to disrupt rational discussion because you know the climate models are not fit for purpose and want to conceal that fact.
I should not ‘feed the troll’ because you are deaf to any evidence and any argument that refutes your superstitious belief in man-made global warming, but I am replying to your post because it is so outrageously untrue that I would not want any onlookers to be misled by it.
Richard
Richard. Lets get this straight. You insult me by claiming I am not yet at a second grade junior school level and calling me a troll, yet you are one taking offense. I have not said anything offensive to you.
Lets go through this a step at a time. Use a simple analogy so I can understand the subtleties of your argument.
“So, each climate model emulates a different climate system.”
I do not think emulate is the best word. But that aside, each model represents a different approximation of a system, or if you like, it represents or emulates a different system. This is why the models are not the same.
Simple analogy. Take a moving object – a real satellite in orbit around the Earth. Newtonian mechanics models a system where there are no time dilation effects. Relativity models a situation where there are time dilation effects. We could say each one emulates a different system. Is that in agreement with what you wrote?
Hence, at most only one of them emulates the climate system of the real Earth because there is only one Earth. “
OK, in our example we must change climate for satellite. There is only one satellite, so only one model can “emulate” the actual satellite.
I think we can agree that the relativistic model will be a more accurate model. However, the Newtonian model is accurate enough for many purposes.
““Climate models cannot predict the climate of the Earth because each model is of a different climate system ”
We now have the argument – climate models cannot predict the climate of the Earth because each model is of a different system and there is only one real system. So using our simple analogy, all models but one cannot predict the movement of the satellite because each model is of a different system, and there is only one real system. I think we can agree that when applied to the satellite this is literally correct, but that is what we said all along. All models are wrong, but some are useful. Both models are useful in different circumstances.
“And the fact that they each ‘run hot’ unless fiddled by use of a completely arbitrary ‘aerosol cooling’ strongly suggests that none of them emulates the climate system of the real Earth. ”
What you are saying here is that the models are bad, and therefore are not useful. This is a reasonable argument as far as logic is concerned. Bad models are not useful, and if the models are bad they are not useful. However this does not follow from your “only one real Earth” argument, which as far as I can tell is spurious, even after reading again your linked post.
Sorry but definitive tests are the last things that win-the-day lawyer politicians are interested in. They are heavily invested in not knowing anything else and not altering course.
..The models have already failed, some by a very wide margin ! How many chances do they get ?
Marcus do you feel like Throwing Up Vomit just for you. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/08/barack-obama-and-justin-trudeau-to-join-forces-on-climate-change
Oh thanks, I just ate ! LOL
Russell: My only question is, “who is Mutt and who is Jeff?” Who is the dimwitted one and who is the insane one? So hard to decide!
In a sense, what you propose has already been done, and by the criteria given by climate modelers (15 years BAMS 2009, 17 years Santer 2011) the models have now failed. For CMIP3, scenario A1B closely (not exactly) matches subsequent actual emissions. For CMIP5, RCP4.5 is a bit less than actual; that is OK for these purposes. Neither set of models run with these scenarios projected the actual pause measured by 4 radiosonde and 3 satellite data sets. And both sets of models under these scenarios also ran appreciably hotter than the problematic, much fiddled land/sea datasets.
But it does not matter, because the policy debate is not about model accuracy. It is about a quasi religious belief system that would hobble modern civilization out of fear of unprovable CAGW via application of a ruinous precautionary principle.
The warmunist ‘religion’ ignores that CO2 is beneficial to plants (earth is greening), that sea level rise has not accelerated, that the model predicted tropical troposphere hot spot does not exist (itself another test showing the models are unreliable), that polar bears do not depend on summer ice, that weather extremes have not increased,… Warmunists are immune to facts, and distort reality ad litem to suit the meme. AGW went from claiming snow would disappear to claiming it causes more snow, when the snow came. AGW was going to cause permanent Australian drought (hence the mothballed desal plants), and then when the rains came AGW caused flooding. It is not possible to have rational policy discussions with warmunists. Your hopeful proposal is in vain, IMO.
…+ 5,000
Indeed. IOWs, we’ve had these tests. It’s just not a “fair test” until the tyrants win.
ristvan,
I’ll respond to your comment, since it is a high-level version of almost everybody else’s on this post.
It’s nice that you have an opinion. The other side has opinions, also — and support from almost every major science institution. The goal of the policy debate is to gain support of the US public, most of whom are uninterested at this point in time.
Proclaiming that you are right has zero effect on this debate, no matter how loud or confidently you say it.
The situation could change as either the political winds change (as they often suddenly do), or if one of more large weather events strike — to be attributed to CO2 (of course). As they say in both political science AND the military: defenders need to win every day, insurgents need win only once. If the pubic is panicked into supporting news laws and regulations — as has often happened — then the warmists have won.
The debate can be resolved. This is an timely moment to do so.
This proposal offers one step to this: offer a fair test. Warmists will find it difficult to refuse without looking weak (i.e., that they are avoiding a test). if the models fail, as you expect, they will attempt to explain this away — but explaining away failure in a high-profile test seems likely to make them look unreliable.
“The warmunist ‘religion’ …”
Whatever. I doubt psychoanalyzing your foes makes any difference in the public debate. The other side does that to you as well. My guess is that most people look at such things and shrug about activists’ folly.
They already refuse to debate, they already reject the results of all the test that have shown their models have failed. What makes you think they’ll suddenly react any differently, particularly as long as the lame stream media is on their side?
Fabius Maximus-
To respond to you with your own advice-
“It’s nice that you have an opinion.” Everyone else has opinions too.
“Proclaiming that you are right (about some “fair test” idea) has zero effect on this debate, no matter how loud or confidently you say it.”
If warmists cared about looking weak, they wouldn’t say or proclaim half of the things they do…perhaps more than half. Most of them STILL claim that the models are accurate….so why would they have to agree to a test of something they proclaim already passed the test? “If the models fail”-they already have “they will attempt to explain this away”-they already DO, constantly-“but explaining away failure in a high profile test seems likely to make them look unreliable”-they already DO look unreliable. My lord….everything they produce looks unreliable because it IS unreliable. Why do you think that trust in scientists is at an all time LOW in this country? Why do you think that most Americans don’t take the climate scare seriously?
From your own blog, linked to in the above article-
“Let’s discuss what scientists can do to restart the debate. Let’s start with the big step: show that climate models have successfully predicted future global temperatures with reasonable accuracy.”
YOU actually seem to believe that climate models have “successfully predicted future global temperatures with reasonable accuracy”. BUT for some odd reason you demand in your “test proposal” that those “successful, reasonably accurate models” be fed different, alternative data…which makes no sense at all.
A-if the models worked accurately, then they would match what actually happened, and no test would be required to prove that.
B-if the models did NOT work accurately, then testing inaccurate models again, will produce inaccurate results, again.
C-programming a model with different data=a different model altogether.
Aphan, if you look at old IPCC reports they contain a number of lines extending into the (then) future, each one representing a particular emission scenario (business-as-usual, severe cuts in CO2 etc). If we look at these today, we do not know which of the lines represents what actually happened with CO2 and other parameters in the model. Therefore we cannot easily see how good the model was.
Since we now have the data about exactly what did happen to CO2, CH4, insolation etc, we are in a position to plug the actual data into that same model, in effect choosing one of the potential lines.
I would welcome seeing these discussed.
There was a famous prediction by Hansen in 1988. This has three scenarios, A,B and C. The actual forcing levels have been close to scenario B, but it would be instructive to see the output of the same model with the actual levels. The estimate of sensitivity was also a bit higher that todays, so we could also plug in the current best estimate to see how good the model was.
It would also be extremely instructive to see other models from 1988 that are based on CO2 not having an effect on the climate, and plugging in data for actual levels of whatever parameters these models were based on. We would then have a comparison between the AGW and skeptic models. Unfortunately there do not seem to be any such models. If anyone is aware of any, please let me know here.
“There was a famous prediction by Hansen in 1988. This has three scenarios, A,B and C. The actual forcing levels have been close to scenario B”
Alas….wrong:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/03/20/how-well-did-hansen-1988-do/
“So, only Scenario C, which “assumes a rapid curtailment of trace gas emissions” comes close to the truth.”
(In Hansen’s scenario C “assumes a rapid curtailment of trace gas emissions such that the net climate forcing ceases to increase after 2000”)
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/15/james-hansens-climate-forecast-of-1988-a-whopping-150-wrong/
“If we look at these today, we do not know which of the lines represents what actually happened with CO2 and other parameters in the model. Therefore we cannot easily see how good the model was.”
Here’s a chart of the results of 79 climate models vs reality-
http://i1.wp.com/www.globalwarming.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CMIP5-73-models-vs-obs-20N-20S-MT.png
Now…if, out of 79 models, NONE of them actually matched the temperatures that occurred , then we can easily SEE how BAD the models are. They may have gotten the actual CO2 increases PERFECT, but not something else-like how sensitive the earth IS to increasing CO2 etc. Or clouds. Or outgoing radiation. Or outgassing of the oceans etc. With a hundred different parameters, and a coupled, chaotic non-linear system-how exactly do you expect scientists to EVER be able to fine tune parameters when they cannot control for, and isolate, each individual parameter?
Editor
Your statement “…This proposal offers one step to this: offer a fair test….”
I assume both sides actually have exactly the same definition of “a fair test” = WE WIN!
Since this test-the-model fiasco has already been running for 25+ years, please explain how the tooth fairy plans to proceed.
John,
“What makes you think they’ll suddenly react any differently, particularly as long as the lame stream media is on their side?”
Because they obey the dictates of those who pay them. For example, the GOP could adopt this proposal. The public can put pressure on Congress. Congress can require NOAA to run this test.
“It is not possible to have rational policy discussions with warmunists.”
——————
It is not possible to have rational
policydiscussions with warmunists.Absolutely bloody spot on.
+10,000 Well said and well explained!
That pretty much sums it up.
One thing though. There are really three different, interlocking (non) debates being conducted:
1. “Climate Science” and specifically the obviously broken models. Conceptually, it is hard to see why this HAS to be a religious war. But is clearly is. Sadly, climate models that actually work would doubtless be very useful. But as long as the keepers of the models hold fast to a “The models are SCIENCE and anyone who denies that is the evil spawn of Satan” position, the models aren’t going to be fixed.
2. Energy engineering and specifically the capabilities and limitations of renewable technologies. This looks subject to be rational discussion and analysis. But it largely isn’t being discussed rationally. One side is hampered by extreme fact-free emotionalism and rampant wishful thinking. And the other is hampered by self-serving actions of those who would benefit from specific “solutions” — whether the solutions actually solve any problems or not.
3. A near complete failure on the part of Western intelligensia to understand the problems facing developing countries, how the 80-85% of humanity living in those countries view the issues, and the (frequently mindless) “solutions” being proposed by those who mistakenly think they are running the planet. (Why would anyone want to run this planet?)
Don,
This post discusses only the public policy debate.
“The government can focus the institutions of science on questions of public policy importance.”
The government (that is neither the elected nor the civil service) has no interest whatsoever in answering the climate change question. They want a continuing “carbon” cash flow based on AGW scare tactics.
Prior to MLO the atmospheric CO2 concentrations, both paleo ice cores and inconsistent contemporary grab samples, were massive wags. Instrumental data at some of NOAA’s tall towers passed through 400 ppm years before MLO reached that level. IPCC AR5 TS.6.2 cites uncertainty in CO2 concentrations over land. Preliminary data from OCO-2 suggests that CO2 is not as well mixed as assumed. Per IPCC AR5 WG1 chapter 6 mankind’s share of the atmosphere’s natural CO2 is basically unknown, could be anywhere from 4% to 96%. (IPCC AR5 Ch 6, Figure 6.1, Table 6.1)
The major global C reservoirs (not CO2 per se, C is a precursor proxy for CO2), i.e. oceans, atmosphere, vegetation & soil, contain over 45,000 Pg (Gt) of C. Over 90% of this C reserve is in the oceans. Between these reservoirs ebb and flow hundreds of Pg C per year, the great fluxes. For instance, vegetation absorbs C for photosynthesis producing plants and O2. When the plants die and decay they release C. A divinely maintained balance of perfection for thousands of years, now unbalanced by mankind’s evil use of fossil fuels.
So just how much net C does mankind’s evil fossil fuel consumption add to this perfectly balanced 45,000 Gt cauldron of churning, boiling, fluxing C? 4 Gt C. That’s correct, 4. Not 4,000, not 400, 4! How are we supposed to take this seriously? (Anyway 4 is totally assumed/fabricated to make the numbers work.)
IPCC AR5 attributes 2 W/m^2 of unbalancing RF due to the increased CO2 concentration between 1750 and 2011 (Fig TS.7, SPM Fig 5.). In the overall global heat balance 2 W (watt is power, not energy) is lost in the magnitudes and uncertainties (Graphic Trenberth et. al. 2011) of: ToA, 340 +/- 10, fluctuating albedos of clouds, snow and ice, reflection, absorption and release of heat from evaporation and condensation of the ocean and water vapor cycle. (IPCC AR5 Ch 8, FAQ 8.1)
IPCC AR5 acknowledges the LTT pause/hiatus/lull/stasis in Text Box 9.2 and laments the failure of the GCMs to model it. If IPCC can’t explain the pause, they can’t explain the cause. IPCC GCMs don’t work because IPCC exaggerates climate sensitivity (TS 6.2), of CO2/GHGs RF in the power flux balance and dismisses the role of water vapor because man does not cause nor control it.
The sea ice and sheet ice is expanding not shrinking, polar bear population is the highest in decades, the weather (30 years = climate) is less extreme not more, the sea level rise is not accelerating, the GCM’s are repeat failures, the CAGW hypothesis is coming unraveled, COP21 turned into yet another empty and embarrassing fiasco, IPCC AR6 will mimic SNL’s Roseanne Roseannadanna, “Well, neeeveeer mind!!”
One can only hope that 2016 will be the year honest science prevails. In the meantime the hyperbolic CAGW hotterist’s hysteria will continue to fleece the fearful, neurotic and gullible, (i.e. the world’s second oldest profession).
“…COP21 turned into yet another empty and embarrassing fiasco…”
Not so fast, did 0bama just write a big check payable to whomever?
..He would have wrote that check no matter what ! It’s his ticket to the top of the U.N. ……
What difference does it make if Obama wrote one big check or 400? COP21 STILL remains an empty and embarrassing fiasco…the check writing is merely another fiasco on top of it.
I thought the so called C02 effect is now saturated? That fact always seems to be left out of discussions, or is it not a fact?
The saturation argument misunderstands the CO2 warming mechanism. Sky Dragonish. More CO2 pushes the ‘saturated’ IR hindering altitude higher. Essay Sensative Uncertainty has an overview. Google around, as there are other good yet simple explanations. More CO2 warms more in a logarithmic relationship (200 to 400 same as 400 to 800). The issue is how much, and that depends on feedbacks like water vapor and clouds.
And those are constrained by the limits of Rel Humidity (remember it gets cold at night, and there’s dew in the morning).
Even more fundamental than the accuracy of models are these questions:
Why should we assume that the current climate is optimal?
Why should we expect to achieve stasis in a dynamic system that we only partially comprehend? After all national and world economies are far better understood and the efforts of governments, some with almost absolute powers, have yet to produce a sustained stability.
Why should we expect peoples living in less than optimal climates now to be content with stability? I’m thinking of the Bedouins and Canadians.
How would we know the difference between stopping this alleged warming and actually throwing it in reverse? Glaciers that aren’t shrinking might decide to grow.
And finally, assuming that the problem is real and that government can allay it, what in all of human history would give you confidence that the power to control climate would not be abused?
“Why should we assume that the current climate is optimal?” It is not so much optimal, as the climate we are adapted to. If the temperatures had been warmer over the last few millennia, we would have population in different places and cities in different places and agriculture in different places and everything would be fine. It is because we have these things in places suited to our current climate that a change will cause problems. I am sure these changes will be adapted to, but not at zero cost.
seaice,
You’re twisting yourself into a pretzel with arguments like that,
db:Why do you say that?
“It is not so much optimal, as the climate we are adapted to. If the temperatures had been warmer over the last few millennia, we would have population in different places and cities in different places and agriculture in different places and everything would be fine. It is because we have these things in places suited to our current climate that a change will cause problems. I am sure these changes will be adapted to, but not at zero cost.”
No…think about it. WE were born into this climate. WE did not “adapt” to it. Period.
“If the temperatures had been warmer of the last few millennia….” What? Temperatures are NOT THE SAME over this entire planet. Some places are MUCH warmer than others! In fact, the majority of the population LIVES in the zones on this planet that ARE the warmest! Humans tend to migrate towards warm and away from cold. And yet you seem to think everything is NOT fine.
Temperatures have been both warmer AND colder over the 200,000 years since humans evolved on this planet. The fact is, that the most recent 11,000 years has been a time of relatively little climate change compared to the rest of Earth’s history. But even then, there are entire cities in different places that are now submerged…because humans built cities in places where the climate/situation was not static. Things were not “fine” for them. We have abandoned cities and lost populations in places where the ocean did not eat them, and volcanoes did not burn them, and all seems perfectly livable…things were not fine for them. Life on planet earth ALWAYS has a cost. There has never been a time in which humans did not pay some price for what they have, or what they have done, or where they have built etc. Building cities on this planet ALWAYS comes with a risk of some kind. We’re stupid not to build our cities as if the Earth is really in charge, but pretending instead that WE are.
Lush fertile valleys with rich soil and cities built around them….under the shadow of ACTIVE volcanic mountains. We build nuclear reactors on KNOWN fault lines and rift zones. How many cities have been built on fault lines that are predicted to someday shake them into dust? How many coastal cities have been destroyed by the oceans-and yet stupid, determined humans rebuild them over and over again. Why? Because we WANT to. Because we INSIST on having what we WANT, not what is best for us, or safest for us, or makes the most sense. We IGNORE the forces of nature most of the time, then cry and weep over the destruction of our “stuff”, and then do it all again. That is not adaptation….it’s arrogance and pride.
Seaice1, do you really think Canada would suffer if it got 1 or 2 degrees warmer ? Or Russia…Or etc…..
0.8 degrees C warming over how many years? And may I add, supposed warming if we indeed can measure such a meaningless figure and as an average of the whole world (give your head a shake).
It’s been warmer and colder in the past and will probably be warmer and colder sometime in the future. Who cares. Whatever the climate will be, that will be optimal at that particular point in time and we will have to go with the flow. There is not a damn thing we humans can do to control the climate. The local environment is another thing. Don’t confuse the two!
This is just nonsense biologically. The “climate” is never optimal for species – it’s a constant stressor. Nor are we adapted to it – we continue to adapt to it. Adaptation is a continuum (with occasional step phases popping up). Nor is there “a climate”, biologically. From a biological perspective there are thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of “climates”. This remains why the entire discussion about climate change, especially when reduced to the absurd simplicity that physicists and climatologists are wont to take it, continues to render it entirely as a political, even religious discussion. Life gave up the idea of simplified climate model millions of years ago. In order for a model to work, you must have an agreed upon frame of reference. Not. Going. To. Happen.
I am not talking about biological adaptation. The societies we live in are adapted to current climate. The population distribution and location of cities is as it is because of the climate. An extreme example to illustrate my point. If everything else were the same but sea levels had been 100ft higher over the last few thousand years, we would have cities in different places. This is obvious as we would not have built cities underwater. Other than this humanity probably would not have had a problem. However, if sea levels suddenly rise by 100ft we will have a problem. It is not the sea level per se that is the problem, it is the change from the sea level to which we are adapted that causes the problem.
Please not that I am not saying sea levels will rise by 100ft, but using this to illustrate my point.
There is nothing intrinsic to 100ft higher sea levels that precludes civilisation pretty much as we know it. But if the levels rose 100ft tomorrow we would have a problem.
We could say that we cannot define an “ideal” sea level, so we cannot say if it should be higher or lower. That may be true intrinsically, but given the current distribution of people, the current sea level is about ideal.
So test out your argument on an extreme and see if it still stands up. If not, you might need to adjust your argument.
Larry says; ” My experience shows that neither side of the climate wars has much interest in a fair test; both sides want to win through politics. Resolving the climate policy wars through science will require action by us, the American public.”
The “climate wars” are entirely political, so it’s not surprising that the factions strive for political victory.
It’s not a very subtle shift in language that goes from “win through politics” to “resolve through science”, but the idea that action by the American public is going to achieve that sciencey resolution betrays a deluded sense of the scientific acumen of the populace.
The premise appears to be that the result of the proposed skill-test of the models will be presented to the public, they will toss their hats in the air and we’ll declare the cessation of hostilities and all agree to do what Larry suggests. Or Michael. Or Gavin. Or Al.
Accordingly, the US public policy machinery has gridlocked on this issue.
The Zombie hoard continue to batter against the walls protecting our liberty.
Yet the issue continues to burn, absorbing policy makers’ attention and scarce public funds.
The Zombie hoard continues to pound. They will not take “No” for an answer.
Worst of all, the paralysis prevents efforts to prepare even for the almost certain repeat of past
climateevents(cough! WEATHER events… I can tell where this post is going…. )
— as Tropical Storm Sandy showed NYC and several studies have shown for Houston — and distracts attention from other serious environmental problems (e.g., destruction of ocean ecosystems).
Well who is stopping you (i.e. public policy machinery) from switching attention to these matters?
Because hardening cities isn’t the goal.
The real goal is to transform society.
It’s just one of those days. Had to vent.
Stephen Rasey-seems like its always “one of those days” lately ya know?
Fabius Maximus is a guy who thinks he understands how people think, act, what they want, need, and that all it would take to unite everyone in the same cause is for some ideal solution to be proposed. Surely all (or enough) would recognize it’s brilliance and irrefutable wisdom, and then happily propel it into success.
Problems being 1-he has yet to propose a truly ideal, irrefutable solution, and 2-the human race is far more complicated than he understands it to be.
“…the human race is far more complicated than he understands it to be.”
That’s not what the models show.
ROFL! Thanks a lot Paul! 🙂
Models?
Not so sure that is where you start.
First is there any verifiable climate change?
Actual measured change?Outside our current knowledge of natural variability?
Then is there any of this measured “verifiable climate change” that is attributable to acts of mankind?
Modelling an assumption is no different to endless speculation as to the number of angels who can dance on the end of my hat pin.
Feeding speculation, made up numbers and output of previous models into computer models will produce interesting computer output. The value of which will remain marginal at best.
There are two sides of Climatology for a reason.
Policy driven speculation, designed to support this preconceived policy does not coexist with data driven observations.
Going where the data leads will always conflict with ideology.
Science does not respect authority.
So what is the Fair Test?
Where are the models defined?
Where are the defined terms?
How do you come up with an acceptable test to satisfy two wildly divergent philosophies?
Gospel IN–Gospel Out versus Garbage In —Gospel Out..
When blind faith in random modelling is challenged by people well aware of the pitfalls of computer modelling , you look for compromise?
The war is pretty simple and endless.
The parasitic hordes will seek to feed upon the herd.
If a big lie is the most efficient tool to allow the herd to be robbed peacefully, the the hordes will lie.
Naturally members of the herd will advocate for no compromise, starve the parasites.
I disagree with your proposal on many levels.
1. It is for those proposing the theory to do the testing and to pay for it themselves.
2. Before you can test, you need a baseline, which MUST include what natural variation might have caused. Natural variation is huge, so for example, you need to look at several ENSO/PDO cycles, and then your test must be for longer than a whole cycle (60 years?).
3. Your must have data integrity. This goes,
*to the data collection process (over 90% of weather stations are not fit for the purpose)
*to the data “adjustment process” (continuous and in the same direction? Really?)
*to the error in the measurements (not the least is the spread between the 5 main data sets)
4. You must demonstrate that humans are causing CO2 levels to be higher than they would have been. Recent evidence reinforces the idea that as temps go up, CO2 is outgased from the oceans toward a new equilibrium. If CO2 from fossil fuels goes into the atmosphere, then less CO2 will need to be released from the oceans. So, quite possibly, even though humans are putting CO2 into the atmosphere, we may not be increasing the total which would have been there anyway.
5. You must show that any particular rise in human caused global warming, which is above what natural variation might have caused, is catastrophic to the point of requiring mitigation now, rather than adaptation as needed.
There’s more, but you get the idea. The Alarmists’ task is more than trivial – many would say impossible. So, for you to suggest that I cut the Alarmists some slack, at the same time that they are trying to hurt me with their War on Energy, etc. shows a lack of understanding of the political nature of the issue on your part.
I agree in general with all of your points, but if the data were available, I’d actually be willing to kick in a few dollars as a single event fee to get the answer. So I’d say it is in society’s best interest to act on good information, and wouldn’t object to having society shoulder the cost of the test were the data available. I’m not talking about a new ongoing expense to add to the many already unfunded liabilities, but a single test event would be worthwhile to everyone if it was implemented and we acted upon actual, tested, and accurate results.
And who exactly does Larry refer to when he says “Climate scientists can restart the debate…and WIN!”??
There are climate scientists on BOTH sides of this issue. Which side is it that Larry thinks SHOULD win? There are climate scientists who believe in the accuracy of the models and those who find them painfully inaccurate. The only thing that ALL climate scientists will admit is that we do not fully and completely understand the climate on this planet! And if we cannot fully understand it, we cannot fully model it, and therefore ALL results are tainted with the unknown.
Aphan,
“There are climate scientists on BOTH sides of this issue. ”
Yes, that is of course my point. No matter what the result of the tests, it is a win for climate science.