Via the GWPF – Paris Climate Poker On A Knife-Edge
£2.3 Trillion: Rich Countries’ Bill For Climate Deal
Britain and other rich countries face demands for $3.5 trillion (£2.3 trillion) in payments to developing nations to secure a deal in Paris to curb global warming.
Developing countries have added a clause to the latest draft of the text under which they would be paid the “full costs” of meeting plans to cut emissions. The amount paid by rich countries is a key unresolved issue at the climate conference in Paris, which is supposed to end tomorrow. The latest version of the text has more than 360 points of disagreement. –Ben Webster, The Times, 11 December 2015
The night saw an ugly brawl as US secretary of state John Kerry threatened that developed countries, including the US, would walk out of the agreement if it help up the wall of differentiation or if it was asked to commit to a road-map or a goal to deliver on its financial obligations in the Paris agreement. “You can take the US out of this. Take the developed world out of this. Remember, the Earth has a problem. What will you do with the problem on your own?” he said behind closed doors in negotiations to other ministers on the second revised draft of the Paris agreement. –Nitin Sethi, Business Standard, 11 December 2015
US Threatens To Walk Out If Financial Obligations Made Legally Binding
Business Standard, 11 December 2015
Nitin Sethi
Talks go beyond deadline as developed countries block differentiation in revised draft of Paris agreement and oppose financial road-map
Paris climate talks got pushed well beyond their scheduled deadline of Friday 6 pm. The French foreign minister Laruent Fabius formally announced that the next, and hopefully the final draft, of the Paris package would be brought out on Saturday morning followed by negotiations in afternoon. Bruised by the fractious arguments that had split countries along the developed-developing lines through the night between Thursday and Friday, many negotiators across the divide assessed that the talks would stretch in to Sunday.
The night saw an ugly brawl as US secretary of state John Kerry threatened that developed countries, including the US, would walk out of the agreement if it help up the wall of differentiation or if it was asked to commit to a road-map or a goal to deliver on its financial obligations in the Paris agreement. “You can take the US out of this. Take the developed world out of this. Remember, the Earth has a problem. What will you do with the problem on your own?” he said behind closed doors in negotiations to other ministers on the second revised draft of the Paris agreement.
He added, “We can’t afford in the hours we are left with to nit-pick every single word and to believe there is an effort here that separates developed countries from developing countries. That’s not where we are in 2015. Don’t think this agreement reflects that kind of differentiation.”
Making a veiled threat again that the agreement could fail if the US was pushed for financial obligations, Kerry said, “At this late hour, hope we don’t load this with differentiation…I would love to have a legally binding agreement. But the situation in the US is such that legally binding with respect to finance is a killer for the agreement.”
His remarks were made during the Indaba negotiations at the night between Thursday and Friday. Right after his short intervention Kerry left the negotiating room while other US delegates stayed back, making delegates from other countries point out that the sessions were to exchange views and not just threaten and leave.
Business Standard was able to confirm his remarks and other statements made during the night by speaking to multiple negotiators in the room during the night.
Kerry’s intervention was later followed by developed countries collectively refusing to give a road-map for delivery of their financial obligations behind 2020. EU said it was not acceptable and umbrella group of countries which includes the US too demanded scuttling such a plan.
IN the past the developed countries have been unable to deliver financial flows against their commitments of providing US $ 100 billion annually by 2020. The OECD produced a report recently claiming the rich world had delivered US $ 62 billion by 2014 which the rich countries showed off at the Paris talks. But developing countries, including India, noted gross levels of double accounting and counting of high interest loans as climate finance – which is seen as a reparation cost. The developing countries asked that a road-map for delivery of the US $ 100 billion be fixed at Paris and that the accounting rules too be set by the UN climate convention blocking attempts of creative accounting by developed countries. This was partially reflected in the second revised draft of the Paris agreement.
The proposal got the developed countries in a knot. One after the other each took the floor demanding that developing countries be asked to pay as well. The US went to the point of saying that at best the countries could ask for a one time goal being promised by developed countries in 2025. In other words developing countries would not be able to hold the developed world accountable for their financial commitments post-2025.
“Kerry’s statement against differentiation and legal obligations was shocking. They (developed countries) see this is an opportunity to walk away from their obligations. At all costs the developed countries want the rules rewritten in departure from all the principles and provisions of the convention,” said Meena Raman, from the observer group Third World Network.
The collective pushback from the developed countries got the rest of the developing countries together as well. Southern Sudan, a country formed only four years ago after strife and war, said, “Some developed countries are proposing all parties (countries) shall provide finances but many developing are poor vulnerable, with special circumstances and will not be able to pay for mitigation, adaptation and loss and damage because the amounts we are talking of are significant.”
He added, “We cannot afford to use the money for hospitals saving lives, providing education, water and schools to be used on these matters. The agreement needs to provide adequate predictable new additional and verifiable resources.”
Some of the umbrella group of countries also said they were not in favour of a review to see if the support provided for adaptation to climate change by developing countries was adequate or not.
India, China, Argentina and many other developing countries intervened through the night pushing for differentiation as well as explicit financial obligations from the rich world.
The talks remained inconclusive and the French foreign minister announced the extension of the talks beyond deadline promising to meet countries and groups in bilateral format through Friday and hope to produce the ultimate draft of the text on Saturday.
Key issues that have delayed the agreement
1. Should developed countries have a legal obligation to deliver finances against a road-map
2. Should developing countries that do not have historical responsibility for emissions also contribute to climate flows
3. Should the burden sharing in the agreement be based on self-differentiation based on current economic capacities or on both, historical emissions and current economic conditions
4. Should the actions of developing countries be linked, even if weakly, to the provision of finance and technology or should they be treated as par with developed countries during next ratchet up of emission reduction commitments
5. Should there be a periodic review of delivery of finance and technology by developed world or not
6. Should the long term goal of the agreement unambiguously be to keep global temperature rise below 1.5 degree by 2100 or should the agreement refer hedge on this goal
7. Should poor and vulnerable countries continue to hold rights to file for damages and liability against permanent loss and damage caused due to climate change
UN Climate Talks Deadlocked, Officially Delayed Until Saturday
The Times of India, 11 December 2015
Vishwa Mohan
The UN climate talks are officially delayed until Saturday. Overnight negotiations could not result into convergence on many issue.
Stage 5 of the UN Climate Ritual … breakthrough tomorrow?
The next and final text, which was supposed to come on Friday, will now be released on Saturday morning and discussion will begin over it the same afternoon to bring out a global deal latest by the evening to save the world from the impacts of climate change through countries’ post-2020 actions.
As overnight negotiations could not result into convergence on many issues, the French foreign minister and COP21 president Laurent Fabius had to officially announce this morning that he would not present the text on Friday evening as he had thought earlier (to meet the deadline as the Paris talks was scheduled to be concluded on Friday by arriving at an agreement).
As overnight negotiations ran on, Fabius will now present the final text on Saturday morning so that the talks would conclude by the evening.
He said, “There is still work to do. Things are going on in right direction”.
Most of the decisive issues are still open. It include the climate finance, transparency of action and the crucial one on how to share responsibility between developed and developing countries.
China has strong objections on differentiation as it thinks the second text that came on Thursday night was an attempt to dilute this provision. Egypt on behalf of African Group, on the other hand, wants the ‘greenhouse gas neutrality’ should be removed from the second version of the text.
Note: shortly after publication the first paragraph was reformatted to include some missing headline text.
Josh’s COP21 cartoon model has been the most successful climate related model so far.
The Bengal tigers took it seriously, as did the Chinese Panda… but to those whose flags are red and white and blue (and a green one or two, too), it was, LAUGH OUT LOUD — can’t help it!! — , just a big circus!
#(:))
(you can see the back of John Kerry’s head as he duck out behind the big top on the left)
lolololololololololololololololololololololololOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I do think dwarf clowns driving around in a miniature fire truck when I hear this piece. Entrance of the Gladiators by Fukic I believe.
Sabre Dance has a sense of desperation…. I think…COP21 Theme
Paul Westhaver: #(:))
Perfect. And the fire truck’s hoses are full of ketchup!!! And one of the clowns runs around grinning and screaming, “I’ve been to all 62 states! My parents met for the first time after I was born — and I DO NOT SPEAK AUSTRIAN!!” lolololol
Entry Of The Gladiators by Julius Fucik 1872-1916
a Czech composer and conductor of military bands.
I think this is a good candidate as a theme tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snnCKVFzjHE
It just seems to fit so well!
James Bull
How do you say: “Go and pound sand. !” in197 different languages ??
g
Nuts!
And by the way, they are NOT obligations. The USA has paid more than its fair share to this cacophony of nano-nations. They can have the same deal we got.
Get your governments off the backs of your peoples, and then watch what they can do without the mill stone around their necks. We can show them how; but we can’t do it for them.
g
@george … I think this might be universally recognizable … ↑ & # SiO2
Here’s my suggestion for the COP21 theme song.
Frank Crumit sings …..
…. and that’s how it goes at the COP, it’s really really true.
Oh wait a minute, after reading the rest of this thread, maybeeeeee….
What is the unfolding paradox of COP21 in Paris?
In Paris we see, ostensibly for the sake of climate, countries squabbling over who will be plundered for how much and who will be the plunderers. At the same time, paradoxically, the scientific community focused on climate has a profound divide about whether there is any discernably significant basis for any proposed plundering.
Even more paradoxically, even about the existence of a divide there is a deep divide in climate focused science circles.
Growing segments of our cultures are increasingly aware of the irrational situation and have serious issues with the whole climate focused process, and rightly so.
John
One way out of this fiasco would be for the whole scientific community to admit to the truth, that the whole thing has been a gigantic scam to gain grant money and political power, and the attendees need to creep back to where they came from and promptly resign. Then get on with impeaching the POTUS and charging Gore, Mann, etc. with fraud. Wishful thinking perhaps, but if the “developing countries” push hard enough….
Perhaps Kerry and other naive leaders of developed countries are finally figuring out the real reason developing countries are so actively on board – so they can get showered with free money! The pretentiousness of these poor countries. It’s all due to the bleeding heart socialist leadership we have. Dam, I want a leader who will re-educate these people. Teach them that they owe us for our graciousness in choosing not to vaporize their countries and allowing them to live. I want a leader who will remind them of this simple fact now and then. The stupidity of our current leader just burns!
You were doing so well up until:
“Teach them that they owe us for our graciousness in choosing not to vaporize their countries and allowing them to live”
I smell a troll.
Good time to remember the Belaton Group, Donella Meadows, and PT Bauer’s 1981 classic Equality, the Third World, and Economic Delusion. http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/spearheading-human-evolution-towards-a-new-vision-of-the-future-via-instilled-core-values-and-ideas/
The excuse for what are essentially colonialism reparations changes, but never the demand.
+10
The list of 7 key issues at the end is proof that this is no longer about climate, but rather about ransom money.
All,
For some reason, this reminds me of Harold Wilson.
PM of the UK.
Won 4 elections – albeit by small margins 3 times – but never escaped a reputation for being ‘slippery’
Wilson – the man with more faces than the Town Hall Clocks.
Yet COP 21 seems worse than that – to me.
Auto
To be perfectly frank and honest, it reminds me of HW too.
Auto and Martin A:
In 1976 Harold Wilson suddenly and without warning resigned as Prime Minister. Years later it was learned that on the day before Wilson’s resignation his physician had informed him that he had the beginnings of Alzheimer’s Disease. It seems that Wilson resigned immediately when he was informed his abilities were to decline, but he saw no reason to inform others of the reason for his resignation.
Today we can only hope to obtain politicians with the devotion and integrity of Harold Wilson.
Richard
If it is legally binding, that turns it into a treaty. That is thankfully DOA in the Congress.
Which is exactly why Kerry is pushing back on it. India, et al. cannot possibly be unaware of that.
That’s exactly what Senator Inhofe says in this address to Heartland Group at Paris. It is DOA, and the Senate have “Papers on The President’s Desk” awaiting Obama’s return from Paris, that will tell him just that, Paris obligations are DOA in the good ole US of A …… Yee-Ha !
I’m beginning to think no one wants an agreement. As it is, this has become an industry unto itself. An agreement would put an end to tens of thousands of people travelling to wonderful places, eating lavish foods, enjoying great entertainment, and, most importantly, earning a paycheck, to try to solve the problem.
The war on warming employs too many people to reach an agreement and put all of them out of work.
“I’m beginning to think no one wants an agreement. As it is, this has become an industry unto itself. An agreement would put an end to tens of thousands of people travelling to wonderful places, eating lavish foods, enjoying great entertainment, and, most importantly, earning a paycheck, to try to solve the problem.”
I think you may well be correct. What would the self-annointed climate saviours do with all their surplus shaming, sanctimony, blaming and personal attacks if an agreement were reached?
What would the self-annointed climate saviors do with all their surplus shaming, sanctimony, blaming and personal attacks if an agreement were reached?
I think it is referred to as reciprocity whereby policemen need criminals to justify their employment. No crime, no police.
Doug,
You make a valid point.
Now we know where money gone…
That’s why I keep saying that the conferences should be held outdoors in January. The venue to be Oymyakon and Marble Bar in alternate years.
Because if it’s legally binding then Obummer can’t sign it as an “Executive Agreement.” It would need to go to Congress … and it ends there. Kerry, when pushed into the corner, had to finally admit that he doesn’t really represent the U.S. at large.
I’m not sure who is calling who’s bluff, but it’s getting pretty ugly over there, Naomi Klein is saying nasty things about the French Government, Modi has been lecturing everyone, and Christiana Figueres seems to have total disappeared from the proceedings, and I’m here enjoying every minute of it
The uglier it gets, the better the resulting failure bang for bucks. Remember, this was sold as the last chance.
This is just the 21st “last chance”; There will be a 22nd next year.
I read an AP report that the attendees are “sleep deprived” as if they are working so very hard to reach an agreement by the deadline ( I wish “deadline” in this case were literal). These same people normally consider sleep deprivation as a form of torture. So can I assume that any agreement reached will be the result of torture?
How can an agreement which is supposed to affect the future state of the planet and all of its inhabitants have a “deadline”?
These people are truly unstable.
“Naomi Klein is saying nasty things”
Shock horror, Pope revealed as Catholic, Bear craps in woods & etc
What the th F**kwits expect! Roll over. Dulles would have been proud of the brinkmanship. All talk and no do.
COP21 will go down in history as the most expensive game of Russian roulette in history. Is it really possible that a U.S. representative could give away a nation’s total wealth overnight in a foreign capital on a whim with or without alcohol impairment? I don’t think the founding fathers ever saw this possibility. It’s the climate change version of Dr. Strangelove and Kerry is playing the part of…….
Thank the founding fathers for their wisdom in establishing a division of authority among the three branches of government. One might quibble with the current state of disarray in Washington, but this is one case in which we’ve been saved from a huge financial drain by divided government.
Our Founding Fathers tried their best to design a mal-functioning government system, unless there was overwhelming support and/or need.
Their intention was also to try and keep elected officials reachable by ordinary citizens. An intention that didn’t really last long.
The concept of one official writing ’emperor edicts’ contemptuously labeled ‘Presidential executive orders’ is not explicitly in the Constitution, the Bill of rights or amendments. Executive orders are a function of how an executive operates and manages administration affairs and the affairs or actions of the government relative to the executive’s function of government. As such they are expected and legitimate.
Where the President goes astray are executive orders intending to override or end-run Congress’s legislative duties.
Kerry taking his marble, a small solitary pitted glass marble at that, and walking out of the negotiations is because the POTUS can not issue funding orders. Not without risking a confrontation.
What the marble headed Kerry is trying for are agreements where the POTUS believes he might be able to use executive orders to demand compliance.
Which means that Kerry nor the POTUS listened when Congress warned both of them that any COP21 agreements are very unlikely to receive funding. And that no payment for CO2 guilt will be approved.
Congress may not be able to override a Presidential veto, but they have sufficient votes to eliminate funds for COP21 compliance payments or CO2/fossil fuel orders.
http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/dr-strangelove-still-580.jpg
(NewYorker.com)
Slim Pickens played a true hero in “Dr. Strangelove,” so, I would give Kerry the supporting role of some empty-headed, self-important, functionary who soberly intones fatuous inanities… .
Col. Bat Guano. One of the best movies Peter Sellers stared in.
General Jack D. Rippers bodily fluids ??
Slim Pickens.
Ride that baby in John…
What does this mean, anyway? (Nitin Sethi keeps using it in his article)
Seconded.
Anyone?
I’m thinking… it has something to do with Humpty Dumpty.
India, et. al. (grunting with the effort): Come on, guys, help me out here…. I can’t help Humpty Dumpty up this wall all by myself!
Well, ha! Humpty Dumpty read the book. HE is not going to “have a great fall” — even IF “all the king’s horses and all the king’s men” CAN put him back “together again”! With a twist and a leap — Humpty’s off! Last seen taking a swift boat home for Christmas dinner… .
Its actually pretty simple ‘code’. In the original UNFCCC (1992, IIRC), ‘differentiation’ was the enshrined treaty principle that developed nations had burned most of the fossil fuels, so bore a differentiated (larger) responsibility for mitigation. The issue (underlying misunderstood Kerry’s speech discussed on a previous thread) is that is NOT true for the future from now. If the US disappeared now (zero CO2), it would not matter for the future of ‘climate change’. China and India do. China and India want to develop, not contribute their ‘future fair share’. Unless differentiation is mostly done away with, COP21 fails objectively at its claimed mission reducing CO2. Yet no way will China and India let ‘differentiation’ (translation, developed countries commit economic suicide while China and India do as they please) get weakened because of its economic development impacts, arguing back to the original UNFCCC. Rock, meet hard place.
Thank you for the info. about “differentiation.” Rud. We got that (I think). We were wondering about the phrase “hold up” which, apparently, meant “maintain.”
Well Janice it would certainly differentiate the parts of Dumpty’s shell game from each other.
Really cracks me up !
g
@ur momisugly George (smile): Eggzactly. (ouch)
HELD up the wall ????
held
Beat ya by seven minutes…LOL
Well, that author needs some writing lessons. “Maintained” is only very awkwardly expressed by “held up.”
Maybe “heap“?
nope – I’m guessing it is literal, but missing a term –
help (build) up the wall of differentiation
It’s definitely a “hold up” if it goes through. Fortunately, the Senate has not yet lost its collective sanity.
It’s probably the usual latest leftist buzzphrase that they’ll all be smugly using while everyone else tries to figure out what they’re on about this week.
The developed world “scientists” created “Climate Change.” Their politicians pushed it, backed by moneyed interests. Now the Third World is showing up as victims, saying, “You guys caused it, you gotta pay for it.” More like Frankenstein than Humpty-Dumpty. Maybe this is the “Tipping Point” where money talks and B.S. walks.
““We cannot afford to use the money for hospitals saving lives, providing education, water and schools to be used on these matters.”
Finally, someone with priorities.
We have to suffer today so that future generations don’t have to adapt to a changing world. $2.5 T will buy the planet a completely controlled environment, set to 1890. There needs to be a provision that keeps countries from suing if they happen to have lousy climates now, and will forever be stuck with that when the climate deal is sealed.
BTW, where are all the domed cities that were supposed to be made by now? Perfect way to control the local environment. Of course perhaps one would have to renew at the age of 30.
Let alone what they’re spending on their armies
Right? Since there IS no “global warming,” this one oughta be EASY!
The rational argument (OK, I know) that these smaller truly developing countries should use is that they should be exempt from having to invest in only renewables since their combined contributions to world CO2 is less than a rounding error compared to India and China’s pledged plan to build a new coal plant per week each.
Any help beyond that should come from the generosity of currently developed countries (including China) in foreign aid for economic development and humanitarian purposes, which in fact has been happening long before this current con game began.
And everyone thought it would just be plane fair, hotel bills and a few parties the taxpayers would get stuck with…
obummer and his band of loons are flat out the worst negotiators ever! Everything those bitches touch turns into taking money from those who earned it and giving it away to unproductive people. Instead of teaching a man to fish he just gives them fishes – lots of them. That he takes from those who worked to catch them. He has got to GO! And Trump take his place. America might actually start winning again.
It’s like the old joke about price negotiations with a reluctant would be prostitute. Compromising one’s virtue won’t come cheap.
“In Paris we see, ostensibly for the sake of climate, countries squabbling over who will be plundered for how much and who will be the plunderers. At the same time, paradoxically, the scientific community focused on climate has a profound divide about whether there is any discernibly significant basis for any proposed plundering.”
It’s all rather silly.
And there there seems to be some justice that Kerry and Obama, having painted themselves in a corner, are left holding their paint brushes.
But it seems obvious that COP21 is more likely to start wars then prevent them.
Though there is nothing new about politicians being the cause of wars.
Soooooooooooooooooo, I really don’t get this.
The Liberals at the conference really,really,really believe that global, man made warming is the worst fear for the planet, but they aren’t willing to commit to it via a legal document????
Symbolism over substance??
Because laws must first go through congress. They would get away with it, if it weren’t for that pesky constitution!
No, I think Mark from the Midwest-December 11, 2015 at 11:00 am nailed it. Both Kerry and Obama know that the “legally binding agreement” they really want is also known as a “treaty”, which has zero chance of getting passed through Congress. Heck, I’d bet there are even Democrat congressmen that wouldn’t vote for it.
A sense of congress resolution opposing the Kyoto treaty passed by a vote of 99 to 1.
I doubt the new agreement could get even that much support.
Of course it is symbolism over substance. If they really believed in CAGW, the cop21 talks would have been skyped.
I have been saying that about these COP jollies for years. I profoundly object to these thousands of people pumping out tonnes of carbon to fly to a summit where they lecture me on my miniscule carbon footprint. If such people had the moral integrity to lead by example, I may be slightly more inclined to take them seriously. Of course, they would also have to point to some real, empirically measured, calibrated evidence of the earth warming in any way that can be proven to be beyond natural variability. Something which they have utterly failed to do for over 30 years of this on-going scam.
“6. Should the long term goal of the agreement unambiguously be to keep global temperature rise below 1.5 degree by 2100 or should the agreement refer hedge on this goal”
Why stop there? Why not eliminate hurricanes, tornadoes, droughts, floods, wildfires, earthquakes, tsunamis, and the heartbreak of psoriasis while they’re at it?
I would place hemorrhoids above psoriasis “on a global impact scale”.
isn’t he on bail ?
Don’t forget “a chicken in every pot” and “a car in every garage”.
Free range chickens and zero emissions cars of course.
I’ve often thought that was a mistranslation – it could be “A chicken in every car and a wok in every garage”
I’m at yum char in Hong Kong. Cantonese is flowing at full volume. I don’t understand a word but I’m assured they’re not talking about the Parisitical junket and the sleep deprived party goers with their hands out. Lol.
The Dems are providing all this ammunition just prior to an election year. Show the American tax payers the $BILL$ for this exorbitant vacation, then show them what we bought with our money, then make it clear that it actually could have been much worse. Should make the choice a lot easier for swing voters.
and if Joe Public doesn’t ‘get it’, this piece by an historian/political studies guy pretty well hits it out of the park –
http://drrobertowens.com/2015/12/10/the-man-made-global-warming-hoax-part-deux/
Bubba Cow:
Thanks for that link!
Mods/Anthony: I think that Dr. Robert Owens link/article should be elevated to a post here, if he’s willing.
Definitely worth a post. He takes no prisoners.
Post the Owens link on “tips” — might work. After 2 commenters cried out “Hey, this is a great article” on two different threads and were ignored, I posted there a great article about a German scientist who recently exposed the NOAA data tampering. For some reason, it appears, Anthony didn’t want to post that article! I saw a THIRD mention of it ignored just a few days ago.
So, good luck getting YOUR article posted via “Tips” — maybe no one is monitoring that thread anymore??
And why do they keep saying “rich countries”? Have they not seen the $22 trillion debt and $122 trillion unfunded liabilities?
The developing countries asked that a road-map for delivery of the US $ 100 billion be fixed at Paris and that the accounting rules too be set by the UN climate convention blocking attempts of creative accounting by developed countries.
But that is the only kind of accounting these guy have.
How does that go again? – the developing nations are right at the economic stage that the developed nations must fall to in order to adequately fight climate change. My, what a convoluted miry web that has been woven.
I noticed that, too. I keep wondering how the so-called “developed” countries will be able to sustain payments of the climate ransom after their standard of living has fallen into the ditch.
“India, China, Argentina and many other developing countries intervened through the night pushing for differentiation…”
Argentina wasn’t always a developing country: Che Guevara?
That gives me the perfect solution to this current climate impasse. While he’s admittedly far less photogenic than Che, and certainly possesses far less machismo, Bernie Sanders is possibly every bit as capable as hastening the day in which the U.S. turns into a developing nation. Voila; impasse over with.
Back in the 1930’s Argentina was in something like 8th place in terms of per capita gdp.
Then they discovered socialism.
@MarkW,
No, they didn’t. That is not what happened at all. The Economist explains:
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21596582-one-hundred-years-ago-argentina-was-future-what-went-wrong-century-decline, April 2014
Argentina was “the model for export-led growth when the open trading
system collapsed. After the second world war, when the rich world began its slow return
to free trade with the negotiation of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1947,
Argentina had become a more closed economy—and it kept moving in that direction
under Perón,:” and its “share of trade as a percentage of GDP continued to
fall.”
If you don’t educate your future generation, you die. If you do what the US is doing now, allowing the banks to plunder the financial future of the future generation with usurious loans and interest rates to achieve a higher education, you doom your country. This isn’t socialism, pal. It’s national suicide.
The banks convinced Cheney/Bush admin that they would finance student loans in return for a 100% federal government guarantee on their loans. That’s the federal government guaranteeing their loans 100%. I.e.: no risk. Interest rates are based on the risk involved. And just to make sure there would be no doubt about getting their money back in addition to the usurious interest, they convinced Cheney in 2005 to let them change the bankruptcy laws so that students could not discharge their debts–again, 100% federally guaranteed–in bankruptcy.
And the parents of America sat around with their thumbs in their bum and their brains in neutral and let them do it.
The US used to be in the top ten of countries worldwide in education. Now we’re 33rd.
Public university was free in the 50s and 60s. Now some kids have a $250,000 debt to pay.
I repeat, this is national suicide.
MRW
Obama had a chance to reverse all that for 2 years with Democrats controlling both houses. Wise up. The Dems are all talk. They are on the wrong side of history on CAGW and countless other issues.
Oh come on. They discovered fascism. Ever heard of Peron?
I live in Chile. I hear about Argentina all the time. Yes, it was socialism. Just like Venezuela. Just like it will be in Brazil. And the reason the US is screwed sure as hell isn’t from the damn student loan crisis. The idiot In office has accumulated more debt than every president combined. He is an utter failure. I actually had great hopes for him but he’s a petulant,anti science, ignorant, egotistical ideologue.
There was a time when the phrase “rich as an Argentine” wasn’t sarcasm. I think Juan Peron put an end to that.
So predictable!
The most important issue facing the world and here we are arguing over a few dollars! (sarc)
I think mother Gaia will be fine regardless of what man does.
Can we move on now and start dealing with some real issues.
Ron writes: “Can we move on now and start dealing with some real issues”?
Are you certain you’d want that to happen in light of the current cast of characters “dealing” with issues Ron? I wouldn’t. It’s almost a blessing they’re busy arguing about angels and pinheads. If they started working on real issues, what sort of response could we expect? An effective one? Somehow I doubt that. Instead I believe we’d get some hoked up response that did far more damage than good.
Ask yourself why the Sauds and the OPEC cartel are still pumping oil in mass quantities as the price per barrel approaches $30? Why would they do that? Because ISIS makes its money selling oil through Syria and if oil is cheap ISIS’ funding is cut off. Why is Russia (a major oil producer) now working hard to control Syria? What does this mean to the US consumer? ISIS is directly responsible for cheap gas. Unintended consequences? Certainly. And you might expect there would be others if action were to be taken by the US on “real issues” under the current administration. It’s very much worth considering that before advancing the idea that not enough is being done in some political/economic arenas. Right now, a very effective diplomatic strategy is being employed to restrain ISIS. I’m not certain the Progressives would be capable of pulling something like that off, so let’s not encourage them to engage in other, more important, affairs; I’m virtually certain they’d take us all to h*ll in a hand basket without even knowing what they were up to.
Perhaps it’s better they spend time chasing their tails? Otherwise we might be saddled with some very obnoxious “solutions”.
We’d get healthcare reform…..ooops
BTW Ron, most of that was meant as sarcastic humor. No offense was intended.
Kerry has been hoisted by his own petard. It couldn’t happen to a more deserving soul.
I can’t stand to even look at that man’s petard long enough to enjoy the hoisting…
There was a small headline a few days back where the Russian President was quoted as saying that ‘Russia would not stand in the way of an agreement’
Have to say, I really like Putin’s sense of humor. 🙂
It is so ridiculous, guys who sit about drinking rum all day on sand 5 feet above sea level are asking for funding because why ?
Because the bottle’s half empty, of course!
OK, you have to consider that for people to get into these positions they are not stupid, so you have to think what is this whole thing about as it is obviously a scam.
It has to be some sort of scheme to find a common denominator for all the humans. Is like a common purpose plot utilizing all available methods to create a world wide communist state. I didn’t think people were that smart.
As they say, “Everyone talks about the weather…but no one ever does anything about it.”
The common denominator is the weather. Everyone has to deal with it. It’s the common ground you can pretty much get everyone to admit they care about. And if you can get them to be scared about it, you can shake loose a whole lotta change out of their pockets…so to speak. Actually, it’s more than just pocket change. It’s supposed to end up being a life-sucking burden of debt for everyone who still breathes.
Didn’t those civilizations in Central America have as their central belief the idea that their leader was capable of controlling the weather? And if they sacrificed enough valuable warriors/kings/virgins, then the weather was bound to behave?
This scam is as old as mankind.
Power, The same system could be used today, scam or not ,people would follow and be pleased, but alas it is the lack of virgins to sacrifice that puts this system tried and true as it is, out of business. Thus we need carbon credits as a personal sacrifice, I myself would prefer the virgin option as it is much cheaper.
“One must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore.”
~ Ottmar Edenhofer, Co-Chair, UN/IPCC WG-3
This is how badly skeptics have lost the debate. The entire world’s leadership is squabbling over who will pay how much (and to whom) for damages that do not exist. Not a single world leader has had the stones (to the best of my knowledge) to demand a discussion of the science itself. It just isn’t on the agenda. The fact that climate issues poll at the bottom of concerns for citizens world wide is similarly swept aside.
The only thing preventing the most disastrous stupidity in the history of mankind becoming prevailing governance across the planet is the selfishness and corruption of nations. We debate the science, but reality is that the science no longer matters.
At some point one wonders if Big Coal will wake up and put some serious money on the table to fight back.
“This is how badly skeptics have lost the debate.”
Explain?
I suspect that DMH is referring to two parallel universes: one of the interested
and another of the public. The problem is that the public’s universe is informed by
only one conduit: the media. They have long since abandoned the ship of objectivity.
It is for this reason that political process by voices of reason like Cruz, Smith,
and others currently in congressional command are so important. They are now
the only hope of side-stepping the media and reconnecting the public to reality.
One can only hope that those efforts are more effective than to date.
“This is how badly skeptics have lost the debate.”
What debate? The science is settled; wealth distribution not so much.
Wealth generally gets redistributed upward.
Here in Australia,we had Tony Abbott when Prime Minister of this once fine country,said”Climate Change”was “Crap”He and the Canadian PM were in agreeance.Lord Monkton foresaw that the UN needed to get rid of them before the”Paris Love IN”Our Malcolm Turnbull made sure that their wishes were granted and the”Numpties”in Canada voted Harper out,which they and we in Australia will regret.
I agree Clive wholeheartedly. I never trusted Turnbull, especially it was rumored that he had visited Goldman Sachs a few years ago when carbon credits were about to be abolished and he may have owned some himself? If developed countries have to carry the financial burden themselves as they contribute more to adverse climate changes in developing countries, there will be a mass of revolt in Australia as AGW is a load of crap.I feel developed countries are not that stupid to go alone with this.
Yep. Two degrees is simply a means to an end. This was never about two degrees of temperature rise. It is only about money and liberal guilt.
The argument is about who controls the slush fund formed by the ruling elite. Kerry has no issue with the payment being binding. It is the distribution he does not want. All these socialists elites want a big pile of money betrothed to the U.N. so they can wallow in it.
The frustration is that the poor actually want the share their promised. What audacity these staking horses have?
Locally i sense a slight change of mood among my many friends in the AGW camp. The Green led riots last Sunday at La Place de La Republique in the heart of a city in deep mourning appears to have opened a few eyes. ‘If they can’t understand that this is really not the time and place then perhaps something is not right’ seems to be how they are thinking. Time will tell.
So…the CAGW chickens are coming home to roost. After 20 years of convincing the world that the developed countries (and a couple of developing countries) have endangered the very lives of all the people of the world by spewing carbon dioxide (aka “greenhouse gas” and “carbon”) into the atmosphere, and passing around government largess to green industries and faculty researchers, they have also convinced the other developing and undeveloped countries that they can demand payment for the reduction of CO2. Next they will demand reparations and payment of damages through the various “international courts” and the UN. How can we not be guilty after broadcasting our guilt for so long? Can it be that the avarice and fraud of the CAGW cabal is actually bringing sown its own house, to be hoist on its own petard?
way back in 09 when I read the parts re “reparation/ claims” I realised theyd created something they couldnt begin to deal with…all the 3rd world would be holding hands out n trying to sue for supposed harm/damages
well here and now we have the exact scenario unfolding
and
its bloody funny:-)