Compendium of DEFR Analyses

Roger Caiazza

The organizations responsible for the New York State electricity system transition to net-zero agree that new technologies are necessary to keep the lights on during periods of extended low wind and solar resource availability.  This article references six analyses that describe a new category of generating resources called Dispatchable Emissions-Free Resources (DEFR) needed for a future grid that depends upon wind, solar, and energy storage resources.  

Compendium of DEFR Analyses

This article summarizes six analyses describing the need for DEFR: the New York Scoping Plan’s Integration Analysis, New York Department of Public Service (DPS) Proceeding 15-E-0302 Technical Conference, NYISO Resource Outlook, Richard Ellenbogen, Cornell Biology and Environmental Engineering, and Nuclear New York.  I also include the Jacobson and Howarth work that argues that no new technology is needed.

DEFR is not Required

When the Climate Action Council voted to accept the Scoping Plan draft, council members made statements justifying their positions. The statement of Robert W. Howarth, Ph.D., the David R. Atkinson Professor of Ecology & Environmental Biology at Cornell University argued that no new technologies are needed and was uncritically accepted by some members of the Council. Importantly, the leadership of the Council did not object to the following:

A decade ago, Jacobson, I and others laid out a specific plan for New York (Jacobson et al. 2013). In that peer-reviewed analysis, we demonstrated that our State could rapidly move away from fossil fuels and instead be fueled completely by the power of the wind, the sun, and hydro. We further demonstrated that it could be done completely with technologies available at that time (a decade ago), that it could be cost effective, that it would be hugely beneficial for public health and energy security, and that it would stimulate a large increase in well-paying jobs. I have seen nothing in the past decade that would dissuade me from pushing for the same path forward.

This is the reason I am compiling DEFR analyses because it simply is not consistent with any of the organizations accountable for New York energy policy.  The basis of the no new technology claim is the “Wind, Water, and Solar” work of Professor Mark Jacobson of Stanford.  In my summary of this belief, I showed that Howarth’s argument that no new technology is needed has been refuted in the peer reviewed literature.  In the remainder of this article I describe six other analyses that conclude that DEFR is required.

The Jacobson approach wass described in a widely publicized November 2009 Scientific American article by Mark Jacobson and Mark Delucchi that suggested all electrical generation and ground transportation internationally could be supplied by wind, water and solar resources as early as 2030. However, other contemporary projections were less optimistic, for example two examples disagreed: the 2015 MIT Energy and Climate Outlook has low carbon sources worldwide as only 25% of primary energy by 2050, and renewables only 16% and the International Energy Agency’s two-degree scenario has renewables, including biomass, as less than 50%.

Howarth’s statement cites a specific plan for New York (Jacobson et al. 2013) that he and Jacobson laid out a decade ago.  He says that “In that peer- reviewed analysis, we demonstrated that our State could rapidly move away from fossil fuels and instead be fueled completely by the power of the wind, the sun, and hydro.”   There was a formal rebuttal paper to this analysis by Nathaniel Gilbraith, Paulina Jaramillo, Fan Tong, and Felipe Faria. The rebuttal paper argued that: 

The feasibility analysis performed by Jacobson et al. (2013) is incomplete and scientifically questionable from both the technical and economic perspectives, and it implicitly assumes, without sufficient justification, that social criterion would not produce even larger feasibility barriers.

Jacobson et al. responded to that rebuttal claiming  that “The main limitations are social and political, not technical or economic.”  Given the significant differences between that analysis and the most recent projections by the organizations responsible for keeping the lights on, I agree with the Gilbraith et al. conclusion cited above.  I do not believe that the 2013 WWS analysis includes a defensible feasibility analysis proving that a dispatchable, emissions free resource is not needed during extended periods of low wind and solar resource availability.

Three books include analyses that also refute the Jacobson work.  Meredith Angwin’s 2020 book Shorting the Grid: The Hidden Fragility of Our Electric Grid cites academic work rebutting the Jacobson premise.  Angwin also describes two other books that directly refute it.  Roadmap to Nowhere: The Myth of Powering the Nation With Renewable Energy by Mike Conley and Tim Maloney is available as a free PDF download on the web. Mathijs Beckers, of the Netherlands, wrote The Non-Solutions Project, available as an ebook or paperback.

I conclude that the basis for the influential position that no new technology is needed is not supported by the Jacobson work.  More importantly, the following analyses all conclude new technology is needed.

Integration Analysis

The Final Scoping Plan is the “official” Hochul Administration strategy description of the New York Climate Leadership & Community Protection Act (Climate Act) transition.  The Scoping Plan directly contradicts the statement that technologies available when the Howarth paper was written and today are sufficient for the transition away from fossil fuels.  In particular, the Final Scoping Plan Appendix G, Section I page 49 states:

During a week with persistently low solar and wind generation, additional firm zero-carbon resources, beyond the contributions of existing nuclear, imports, and hydro, are needed to avoid a significant shortfall; Figure 34 demonstrates the system needs during this type of week. During the first day of this week, most of the short-duration battery storage is quickly depleted, and there are still several days in which wind and solar are not sufficient to meet demand. A zero-carbon firm resource becomes essential to maintaining system reliability during such instances. In the modeled pathways, the need for a firm zero-carbon resource is met with hydrogen-based resources; ultimately, this system need could be met by a number of different emerging technologies.

The analysis also recommends technologies for this resource:

Hydrogen effectively provides a form of storage to the system on the order of hundreds of hours. Large quantities of fuel can be produced during the spring and summer and then utilized over the course of the winter provided that there is sufficient fuel storage. In addition to hydrogen-based resources, the analysis also examined the potential to meet reliability needs with a long-duration battery storage solution. In this assessment, the firm zero-carbon capacity, as well as renewable resources needed to produce hydrogen, were removed from the system, and the analysis identified a need for 25 GW of 100-hour battery storage to replace the contributions of 21 GW of a fully dispatchable hydrogen-based resource, along with 14 GW of incremental renewable resources to provide storage charging.40 A 100-hour battery resource can provide firm capacity to meet system needs over several days. However, in contrast to a hydrogen-based resource, if sufficient excess energy is not available to fully recharge the batteries following a challenging stretch, their ability to meet a similar system need in subsequent weeks of the winter is diminished. As a result, a higher amount of 100-hour battery capacity is needed to meet the same level of reliability as hydrogen-based resources.

The analyst for the Integration Analysis reiterated this need at the Zero Emissions by 2040 Technical Conference session Gap Characterization  Kevin Steinberger, Director, Energy and Environmental Economics (E3) stated that their modeling consistently showed the need for a new resource that is firm, dispatchable, and has no emissions that can power the system for days without significant recharge from wind and solar resources. 

NYISO Resource Outlook

In all the resource analyses prepared by the New York Independent System Operator (NYISO) since Climate Act implementation began, the necessity of DEFR has been mentioned.  In the spring of 2024 the Power Trends 2024 report notes:

Renewable energy generation, subject to sudden changes in weather, also provides new challenges to grid operators that must balance supply and demand in real time. These variables highlight the need for new generation technologies that can fill in when weather-dependent resources are unavailable. Such new technologies, collectively referred to as Dispatchable Emission Free Resources (DEFRs), must be dispatchable, emissions free, and able to respond quickly to changing grid conditions. Such technologies do not exist yet on a commercial scale.

The NYISO described this resource in the 2021-2040 System & Resource Outlook:

DEFRs are a classification of emission- free resources that provide the reliability attributes of synchronous generation and can be dispatched to provide both energy and capacity over long durations. DEFRs must be developed and added to the system at scale to reliably serve demand when intermittent generation is unavailable. The lead time necessary for research, development, permitting, and construction of DEFR supply will require action well in advance of 2040 if state policy mandates under the CLCPA are to be achieved.

I described the presentation by Zachary Smith that gave an overview summary presentation of the DEFR issue.  In his first slide (shown below) he gave an overview of the generating resource outlook to make the point that a large amount of new generating resources needs to be developed.  The estimates shown are from the 2021-2040 System & Resource Outlook and represent two plausible load projections.  He noted that there are “a lot of attributes that fossil fuel resources provide today that wind, solar, and energy storage simply cannot provide”.  He also made the point that the DEFR replacements do not have to be a single technology but could be several technologies that in aggregate can replace the fossil generation.

Source: New York State Department of Public Service Zero Emissions by 2040 Technical Conference Agenda

Smith listed the attributes needed by DEFR in his presentation.  In my description of his discussion I offered comments on this list of attributes.

Source: New York State Department of Public Service Zero Emissions by 2040 Technical Conference Agenda

Smith’s presentation lists the attributes of twelve sample technologies in the following slide.  This represents the NYISO opinion of the capability of different technologies to meet the attributes necessary to maintain a reliable system.  In the future grid the insistence that all fossil fired units must be shut down means that numerous technologies that meet some of the necessary attributes will be required.  The added complexity of these technologies does not increase resiliency because wind, solar, battery and demand response are all energy limited.  Ancillary support services will be a major consideration because wind, solar and battery do not provide those services.  Just from this overview, it is clear that affordability and reliability will be challenges.

Attributes of Sample DEFR Technologies

Source: New York State Department of Public Service Zero Emissions by 2040 Technical Conference Agenda

Richard Ellenbogen

I described Richard Ellenbogen’s comments as part of the record for the Department of Public Service Proceeding 15-E-0302 related to the net -zero mandate of the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act (CLCPA). His comments discuss “a viable, affordable, and rapidly executable Plan B to assist NY State in reducing its carbon footprint using technologies that actually exist at scale, unlike the technologies proposed by the CLCPA which only exist at scale in the fantasies of its proponents.”

Ellenbogen lays out reasons that things have changed as the Climate Act is implemented that could affect the schedule and viability of the Scoping Plan list of control strategies.  He concludes that an alternative that does not go to zero provides a better solution. He argues that Interim Combined Cycle Natural Gas Generation phasing to nuclear over time is a far more cost effective and secure way to power the state than what the CLCPA is mandating. Recovering the Combined Cycle emissions in greenhouses will mitigate the negative effect of the carbon emissions. That will also provide energy security that renewables can’t, while simultaneously providing food security as climate change makes food production more challenging.

Cornell Biology and Environmental Engineering

In a post describing the Zero Emissions by 2040 Technical Conference session Gap Characterization  I summarized work by Prof. C. Lindsay Anderson, Chair of Department of Biological and Environmental Engineering Cornell.  Professor Anderson described an analysis her group did using a model they developed.  They made projections for expected loads and potential resources then used 22 years of hourly historical data to model the system.  Without considering cost constraints they assessed system vulnerabilities to evaluate periods where there was insufficient generation to meet projected loads.  Even with optimistic projections they found there will be periods during the coldest and hottest periods where there will be insufficient generation from wind, solar, and energy storage resources.  That gap must be filled with DEFR.

Nuclear New York

I described the independent analysis of the future grid found that New York State has seriously underestimated the need for DEFR. The Filling the Gap in New York’s Decarbonization Plan: A New View of the Electric Grid report was authored by Leonard Rodberg, PhD, Research Director, Nuclear New York, Inc.; Consultant, Energy Policy; Reiner Kuhr, Founder, Center for Academic Collaborative Initiatives (CAIC); and Ahmad Nofal, Co-founder, CAIC. 

The report describes the results of a new modeling tool that allows an hour-by-hour analysis of electric system behavior.  This approach enabled the authors to see details of the hourly operation of each energy source, features not disclosed by existing models.  In my opinion, the CAIC analysis treats DEFR differently than the Integration Analysis does.  I believe that when the Integration Analysis determines which resources should be applied to meet load for each hour, they use DEFR as a last resort.  On the other hand, CAIC uses DEFR much more frequently.  That could be due to a difference in the hourly projections of wind, solar, energy storage, and load for the two models or presumptions in the models.

They found that:

Our hour-by-hour analysis shows that the firm dispatchable source has to run two-thirds of the year. The total load has increased from today. The summer peak has been replaced by a much higher winter peak. That greater demand is met by the extended operation of the DEFR which runs during most evenings in the cooler portion of the year. In fact, we find a capacity factor — the fraction of potential output actually used –of 14.4%.

The report concludes:

We have shown, with a modeling tool capable of performing an hour-by-hour analysis, that dispatchable emission-free resources are essential to meeting the goal of a reliable, zero-emission grid.  Further, this clean dispatchable source must be able to run a large portion of the year. The only such source likely to be available within the next several decades is nuclear power.

Conclusion

There is extensive evidence that a new category of generating resources is necessary for a future grid that depends upon wind, solar, and energy storage resources. Most analysts of the future New York electric system agree that DEFR is necessary to keep the lights on during periods of extended low wind and solar resource availability.   At this point the only questions should be how much, what technologies can be used, and whether any technologies can provide the necessary services affordably.  Arguments that DEFR is not needed are questionable at best.  I would appreciate references to other studies that argue that this resource is needed.


Roger Caiazza blogs on New York energy and environmental issues at Pragmatic Environmentalist of New York.  This represents his opinion and not the opinion of any of his previous employers or any other company with which he has been associated.

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July 29, 2024 11:27 pm

In that peer- reviewed analysis,

This is where the rot starts. If a mental midget makes a claim and it is reviewed by their peers you simply have two mental midgets involved.

A proper review would be to have a thorough engineering value analysis undertaken.

If you are building a power station near a coal mine you do a resource estimation and establish economic reserves. I am yet to see any evaluation of the wind resource and how it is impacted by energy extraction. That is the first question I would ask of anyone presenting a proposal for wind energy. I would then ask how much coal will be required to make the energy extractors and the required life needed to make a positive return on the coal invested. And that calculation would need to cover all firming generation and additional stabilising infrastructure.

Even with the subsidy farmers in Australia getting $46/MWh in subsidies, which is more than their average wholesale value of $43/MWh, the return is insufficient to bring more generation on line because rooftops have swamped the lunchtime demand and the wind farms withdraw generation when the wholesale price goes more negative than the subsidy they get.

Scissor
Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 4:11 am

Kamala approves.

July 29, 2024 11:51 pm

I would appreciate references to other studies that argue that this resource is needed.

Some regions in Australia are achieving annual penetration of WDGs up around 70% – notably South Australia. The national network that covers 5 of the 6 States and one of the two Territories are achieving 30% penetration of WDGs. Point is, Australia has come a long way and is starting to see the brick wall.

This is a link to the latest integrated system plan:
https://aemo.com.au/-/media/files/major-publications/isp/2024/2024-integrated-system-plan-isp.pdf?la=en

In Australia the term used is “Firmed Renewables”. So if you search for “firming” you will get details of what is envisioned to keep pushing up the proportion of demand served by WDGs.

Australia is currently on a knife edge. The closure of a large coal fired station made that abundantly clear. This from the linked 2024 ISP:.

Investment is needed urgently. New generation, storage and firming must be in place before coal power stations retire, and to meet Australia’s growing demand for electricity.

Fundamentally, there are lots of roofs in Australia that provide space for power generation from abundant sunlight so thee emerging risk for the grid is household just going off-grid using the same technology as the grid scale WDGs are using.

In my submission to the first ISP, I implored AEMO to only use time run data for evaluation of adequacy of intermittent generators. This was prompted by the Finkel enquiry report that was based on averages. They were using annual Capacity Factors that are useless for reliability analysis. Since then all AEMO modelling of adequacy has been based on time run data rather than averages.

As a note, the solar panels on my off-grid system achieve 3.8% CF. I am using lithium battery for firming that has a load supply duration of 48 hours. The combination of collection power and storage capacity were optimised for minimum system cost 12 years ago. I live at 37S. I could improve the capacity factor by tilting the panels to maximise May output because May is the month of worst sunlight (so far).

Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 4:06 am

9pm Tuesday on the Australian east coast NEM

Wind is low, yet again. Zero Solar.

NSW… 79% Coal and Gas.. 16% Hydro only 5% wind
Qld… 91% Coal and Gas..
Vic.. 76% Coal and Gas 15% Hydro
Tiny “Renewables [lol] ” SA.. 68% Gas and 14 % DIESEL

Even Tassie is with its mighty hydro, is using 12% gas

rogercaiazza
Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 5:01 am

Thank you

Kevin Kilty
Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 6:47 am

Good comment.

Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 12:38 pm

South Australia is only able to operate at a high level of wind generation because it can export much of its surplus for value for now, and can also import a significant chunk of its backup from dispatchable sources. Utility solar operates with axis tracking: this is to allow maximum solar capture at each end of the daylight, and to detune and curtail in the middle of the day when rooftop solar results in negative RRPs.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
July 30, 2024 2:27 pm

Actually, the amount “exported” when the do have a good wind day, is a tiny pittance compared to the demand of even Victoria, let alone NSW and Queensland.

July 30, 2024 12:20 am

With regard the Attributes table, the only proven, potentially carbon free resource are trees/biomass. And this did not get a line on the table. This would require very large area of managed forests. Which would be many times better for the climate than sun soakers and wind stillers.

Solar and wind plus firming are the most carbon intensive. They are net coal consumers unless they have a life of over 200 years. This is quite easy to verify. If you do a proper analysis of the expenditure getting to Net Zero and then compare that to how much coal you could buty with that investment you would find it would be less fossil fuel intensive just to directly combust the coal in the USA than having China burn their coal to make all the WDGs and firming hardware.

Twiggy Forrest has just sacked 700 people working on his hydrogen project. They could not find the hydrogen fairy that was going to make it economic without extraordinary government largesse.

Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 4:36 am

A lot of big companies continue to “invest” in hydrogen research. I do wonder if they genuinely believe they will be the ones to find the elusive fairy or if it is more about being seen to be doing something.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  DavsS
July 30, 2024 8:17 am

There is, of course, no fairy. It is an immutable fact that more energy is used to produce hydrogen than that hydrogen then contains. Nothing will change this.

What is the point of pursuing an option that uses more energy than it produces?

Reply to  Dave Andrews
July 30, 2024 12:00 pm

It’s also called “Pumped Storage” when it’s done with water.

People like perpetual motion machines. It’s better than a free lunch. That’s why they keep taking government handouts to build them.

rogercaiazza
Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 5:06 am

New York mandates “zero” emissions. It does not matter if the emissions are carbon free. If there are NOx emissions it is unacceptable. There are members of the Climate Action Council that insist that hydrogen can only be used in fuel cells because of the NOx emissions. No concerns about reality whatsoever,

ferdberple
Reply to  RickWill
July 30, 2024 7:56 am

Solar and wind plus firming are the most carbon intensive.
=========
I found this to be true. Especially batteries. Basically a battery over its lifetime can store and release no more energy in total than it took to make the battery. Which makes batteries totally ineffective at reducing emissions.

Reply to  ferdberple
July 30, 2024 10:24 am

“a battery over its lifetime can store and release no more energy in total than it took to make the battery”

Don’t think this is true. There isn’t any reason in principle why lifetime storage and release capacity should be limited to energy required to manufacture and I doubt it is, even for existing technologies. Its a question of the chemistry of the battery, which has nothing to do with the energy required to manufacture.

They probably can reduce emissions somewhat in some applications. The problem is not that, the problem is the cost and the scale. The Royal Society estimated the UK would need 100 TWh of storage for Net Zero, close to 100 times more than anyone has installed anywhere, and it would be far too expensive, even if you could get it manufactured and deployed.

July 30, 2024 1:36 am

Never underestimate the power of carefully constructed peer reviewed bullshit.

michael hart
Reply to  Leo Smith
July 30, 2024 8:20 am

Yes. Urban planners building castles in the air.

I am always (un)impressed with how many exterior benches these people erect in situations where no pedestrians even walk past, never mind spend time sitting on them.

Meanwhile, in densely populated areas, new supermarkets/institutions also often plant vegetation and build obstructions against foot-traffic that actually tells them where many of their customers freely choose to enter the premises.

Ed Zuiderwijk
July 30, 2024 1:39 am

A 25 GW 100hour battery. What does that mean? I think they are talking about a battery that can store 2500 GWH, or 2,5 TWH. Such a thing does not exist, and trying to build it will bankrupt the nation. That they still think that it is feasible and wax lyrically about it suggests that they make the classic mistake of confusing GW with GWH. If so, their calculations are a factor 3600 off.

rogercaiazza
Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
July 30, 2024 5:11 am

i think they mean 25 GW capacity of 100 hour batteries. Not a single battery but still 2500 GWh of energy storage. In my opinion that does not exist and trying to build that much will bankrupt the state

Kevin Kilty
Reply to  rogercaiazza
July 30, 2024 6:56 am

Roger, it is stunning that almost no one, including people who ought to know better, will use the proper units of energy to measure how much storage they need. At one time they simply used units of power like MW, then a few began creeping into using non-units like MW organized into categories like short-term and long-term. Eventually a few will say explicitly 8-hours (or 4 or 2) and 100-hours, but they will not get to the crucial point of it…

And then there is the horrid mixing of storage sources and generation sources into reserve margins calculations leaving one with a calculation that depends on an unknown amount of time.

rogercaiazza
Reply to  Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 7:50 am

Energy illiteracy and innumeracy reigns supreme

auto
Reply to  rogercaiazza
July 30, 2024 1:33 pm

Indeed
For those who, perhaps, believe that the various expensive, well-educated [in Greek metaphors, perhaps] pollies and civil serpents have got this sorted, see, from a couple of days ago, at this parish : –
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/07/28/desnz-has-net-zero-competence/

If ‘net zero competence’ means causing no harm, I disagree.
DESNZ is causing harm, so its net competence is below zero, I suggest.

Auto

Reply to  Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 5:40 pm

If proper SI units were used instead of non-SI, especially Watt-hours, much confusion would go away (assuming tech writers understand Joules and Watts).

sherro01
July 30, 2024 3:28 am

What is wrong with these people, prompted by Jacobsen, that they cannot see blinding truth staring them in the face? What is wrong with this New York administration that it continues to employ these people born without the gene for bleeding obvious? An administration that must know its minions are either lying or mentally deluded, but fails to act as required in the interests of the people it is paid to represent? It is a travesty, I tell you!
Geoff S

Scissor
Reply to  sherro01
July 30, 2024 4:17 am

Jacobson has to be mentally ill, unless he is a socially deviant Marxist. I suppose he could be both.

Reply to  sherro01
July 30, 2024 7:47 am

Jacobsen’s work was so egregiously incorrect he was even defecated upon by Forbes magazine, yet his turds keep resurfacing on the cesspool of cyberspace…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/06/26/debunking-the-unscientific-fantasy-of-100-renewables/

July 30, 2024 3:38 am

Harold the Organic Chemist Says:
ATTN: Roger and Everyone
RE: Carbon Dioxide Causes only a Small Amount Heating of Air.

Using Google, search for “Still Waiting for Greenhouse”
This is the website of the late John Daly.

From the home page, scroll down to the end and click on “Station Temperature Data” On the
“World Map” click on “North America”, then click on “Pacific”, and finally scroll down and click
on “Death Valley”.

The graphic shows plots of the average annual seasonal temperatures and a plot of the average annual temperature from 1923 to 2001. The plots of temperature metrics are fairly flat. In 1920
the concentration of CO2 in air was 300 ppm. This is only 0.589 grams of CO2 per cubic meter
of air. By 2001 the concentration of CO2 was 370 ppm. This is 0.727 grams of CO2 per cubic
meter of air. At 20 deg. C, one cubic meter of air has mass of 1.20 kilograms.

The above empirical data and analysis falsifies the hypothesis that CO2 causes heating of air.
This small amount of CO2 can only heat up such a large mass air by a very small amount.
The claim by the IPCC that CO2 from the use of fossil fuels causes “global warming” and
”climate change” is a lie. Water is by far the major greenhouse gas and CO2 is a trace
greenhouse gas.

A few closing comments. “Net zero” is nonsense and is not possible. Wind and solar power
is fairly expensive and unreliable, and sometimes the windmills and PV panels produce
no power, and they have short life span (ca. 20 years or so). The DEFR is more more pie-in-the sky nonsense. However, small modular nuclear reactors might fill modest energy requirements.

The heavy industries, the heavy transports, and the heavy machinery will always use fossil
fuels because these fuels have high energy densities, and readily prepared from crude oil.

My motto is: Fossil fuels are forever!

Editor
July 30, 2024 4:48 am

A bureaucratically-controlled country can easily be powered entirely by wind or solar. The rules are simple, because in a bureaucracy tbe bureaucracy comes first:
(1) Users must time their usage of electricity for when it is available.
(2) If someone will die if there is no electricity, for example a critical hospital patient, see rule 1.

Kevin Kilty
Reply to  Mike Jonas
July 30, 2024 7:01 am

I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic, but you are correct that a nation can adjust its economy to a lousy energy delivery/conversion system, just as it can adjust to a lousy authoritarian government, but that certainly inverts bottom-up, deregulated growth.

July 30, 2024 5:23 am

To the extent that DEFR is used to “fill in the blanks” when wind and solar are unavailable or inadequate, DEFR renders renewables redundant capacity. Redundancy increases costs.

July 30, 2024 5:41 am

Column #1, “Carbon Free”, is a baldfaced lie. Nearly everything requires oil, gas, or coal at some point in time (don’t know what “Demand Response” means, this is an energy source?).

ferdberple
July 30, 2024 5:58 am

The rule of three applies: electricity is clean, cheap, reliable. But only 2 out of 3 are possible at the same time.

Virtually all technology follows this rule. Cars are cheap, fast, safe. But only 2 out of 3 at the same time.

Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 6:37 am

Good and valuable work as always, Roger. Yet, something that strikes me when I read these analyses you quote is the extent to which people depend on modeling, projections, and so forth to make them. I would guess that to politicians, regulators and the general public, especially the public like Howarth, et al, who are deep believers, this seems a bit unreal and they can justify saying to themselves “these are only projections and are quite likely wrong.”

Instead, a person can go back at least four years in the EIA grid monitor and gather actual demand/supply data for any portion of the grid one desires, switch off/on any of the generation sources and see what is left; what gap has to be filled. I was surprised to see what resulted when I just looked at the period November 2022 to end of October 2023 for the Northwest region and the subregion of it known as PACE. Even with wind+solar, scaled up in their current ratio to being able to meet current annual demands, and with fossil fuel sources eliminated, one couldn’t get through the period with less storage than 140-250 hours of average system demand depending on which subregion I examined.

In other words, just one year of observed data illuminates the difficulties and minimum cost pretty well — mighty expensive DEFR to just get by. Joe Born looked at part of the MISO territory in his Naptown Numbers and found that a person could reduce the investment by trading overbuilding the wind+solar against storage, but there is no way around these two conclusions:

1) that no matter what time of year, nor what subsection of the country one examines, there are periods of low wind+solar production and also periods where wind+solar comes and goes intermittently which drain the storage and

2) an adequately performing power system depending only on wind+solar is one that will have an extraordinarily large fraction, and I mean phenomenally large fraction, of its capital invested in wind+solar overbuild, transmission lines, and storage, all of which will perform at very low utilization — i.e. represent poor use of capital and lots of opportunity costs.

It’s nice that New York can also add hydro, but most of the country cannot because the resources don’t exist, and the opponents of fossil fuels don’t like hydro anyway and are working to eliminate it along with fossil fuels.

SteveZ56
Reply to  Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 7:22 am

Most of the hydroelectric power used in New York State is imported from Canada. But even that is seasonal, and generally not available in winter, since snow needs to melt before it can flow over a dam and generate power.

Hydroelectric power, while it does not generate CO2 emissions, is only available in mountainous areas with a wet climate.

The author of the above article did arrive at a reasonable conclusion–the only dependable emissions-free resource for energy production is nuclear. It’s a shame that people have been afraid of it since the Three Mile Island hiccup and the Chernobyl disaster.

rogercaiazza
Reply to  SteveZ56
July 30, 2024 7:57 am

SteveZ56,

New York has over 4,000 MW of hydro capacity thanks mostly to hydro near Niagara Falls, and along the St Lawrence Seaway but with a bunch of small facilities in the Adirondacks too. The Niagara and St. Lawrence projects are not limited much by the seasons.

On the other hand new hydro in NY is a dream and the only potential source is imports from Canada.

rogercaiazza
Reply to  Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 7:59 am

Kevin,

Thank you. I will be sure to incorporate your conclusions in my articles somewhere.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 10:08 am

Kevin, this graphic illustrates the pattern of daily capacity factors for wind, solar, and nuclear within the BPA’s area of load balancing authority for the period of January 2022 through February 2024.

comment image

In the winter of 2023-2024, the pattern of generation for wind experienced a period of at least twenty days with very low capacity factors. The pattern for solar generation shows low capacity factors in the winter months, as would be expected for solar power at our latitude. 

What is not shown on the solar graph are periods of forty days or more which occur in winter roughly every ten years or so where continuous cloud cover sends the solar capacity factor to less than 5% each and every day.

Nuclear, on the other hand, just chugs along at 93% capacity factor 24/7/365 most of the time except for the refueling outages which occur every other year.

I’m in the process of using the BPA’s raw data to model a centralized 5,000 MW capacity baseload power generation facility for the US Northwest using only wind, solar, and batteries.

The 5,000 MW facility would be located on the Hanford Site in central Washington State and produce an output of 100,000 MW-hours daily 24/7/365.

For purposes of simplicity, this facility would be a baseload facility operating under an assumption that US Northwest hydro would handle the region’s demand response load.  

The Hanford Site has only so much room for wind turbines, but much more for solar. My first iteration model uses a mix of one-third wind and two-thirds solar with an approximate 2X MW capacity overbuild for each.   

My preliminary first iteration model indicates that in order for a 5,000 MW wind & solar solution to duplicate what a 5,000 MW nuclear solution located on the Hanford Site might produce 24/7/365, massive volumes of battery storage are needed.

For this particular application, contingency for periods of low wind and solar have an effect on how much battery storage is required. But that effect isn’t nearly as large as is the effect of the large seasonal variation in solar output.

In order to maintain a baseload capacity of 100,000 MW-hours per day 24/7/365 from this notional Hanford facility, lots of energy must be stored in the summer and fall months and then be released from the battery banks in the winter and spring.

At any rate, within my simplistic model, I’m juggling the balance to be made between wind & solar overbuild versus the volume of battery storage required in order to get some kind of optimum mix.

But only as I have free time available after fulfilling my primary obligation of keeping up my Middle of Nowhere USA homestead.

Kevin Kilty
Reply to  Beta Blocker
July 30, 2024 5:41 pm

Sounds like an interesting project. Is this just out of interest or has someone proposed such a facility? I lived at La Center, WA for nearly a decade and got my electrical energy from Merwin. Two and one half cents per kWhr. If I were living there now I’d be leery of the enviros who want to breech the Snake River Dams right now. Then they will begin agitating about removing Columbia River system dams.

It will be something akin to the Great Salmon hoax, but far more destructive.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  Kevin Kilty
July 30, 2024 8:25 pm

It’s mostly out of my own interest. However, the DOE has recently signed a contract to install 1 GW nameplate of solar on a section of the Hanford site previously reserved for expansion of nuclear power. What I want to do is to see how much it would cost to use wind & solar backed by batteries to duplicate the performance of four AP1000 nuclear reactors — the four reactors which were planned by WPPSS forty years ago but which were never built.

July 30, 2024 7:34 am

Talking about hydrogen….
“Large quantities of fuel (hydrogen) can be produced during the spring and summer and then utilized over the course of the winter…”
Where are they storing this hydrogen ? Economic hydrogen storage is a significant engineering hurdle. How are they planning on using hydrogen to generate electricity again ? Burn it ? Fuel cells ? Years of manufacturing logistics are involved.
What they are advocating is typical of junior high school science class analysis….”we made hydrogen by electrolysis in class today, let’s rig up one to power our bicycle for our science fair project”

rogercaiazza
Reply to  DMacKenzie
July 30, 2024 7:58 am

I mostly agree. My only comment is that you are insulting junior high school classes by comparing them to this nonsense.

ferdberple
July 30, 2024 8:06 am

Hydroelectric power, while it does not generate CO2 emissions, 
====//=
huge amounts of CO2 were generated to build the hydro facility.

ferdberple
July 30, 2024 8:09 am

Building a green economy will generate much more CO2 by 2050 than if we did nothing. Most of this will come from Chinese coal.

Bob
July 30, 2024 12:48 pm

Very nice Roger. There is a simple solution to this whole mess and it all has to do with language. You use the rules for reliability for all generation not just DEFRA. Any reference to emission free must be removed as nothing but fossil fuel and nuclear can come close. Using the rules for reliability all wind and solar must be removed from the grid as they don’t come close to meeting the rules. This is so simple it is embarrassing that it has to be said.