The Green Hydrogen Swindle

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT


By Paul Homewood

h/t Philip Bratby

From the Telegraph:

Engineers will rarely tell you something is impossible, even when your proposal is a very bad idea. Computer scientists at Stanford and MIT in the 1970s came up with a wonderful expression for this, an assignment that was technically feasible, but highly undesirable. They called it “kicking a dead whale down a beach”. The folklore compendium The Hacker’s Dictionary defines this as a “slow, difficult, and disgusting process”. Yes, you can do it like that. But you really don’t want to.

In its efforts to show the world how keenly it is embracing CO2 emission targets, our Government has left a lot of dead whales on the beach for us, and as consumers, we’ll be the ones doing the kicking.

For example, it’s not impossible to heat a home with a heat pump, but it is a very noisy, ineffective and expensive way of doing it. An electric car might be fun to drive, but it is also expensive, and because of the inferior energy density of batteries, a petrol equivalent will always be lighter and go further. Nor at the end of the day will an EV be able to boast any CO2 emissions savings, we now know, thanks to Volvo. But perhaps the greatest whale to land on our beach is hydrogen.

Every day, manufacturers announce that they’re working on some kind of hydrogen initiative.

These include our best and brightest companies, such as Rolls-Royce and JCB. The Government has a Hydrogen Strategy. The Climate Change Committee thinks hydrogen is wonderful. You may think these are all signs that it’s a good idea. But things are not what they seem.


To replace gas boilers with hydrogen boilers requires thousands of miles of new, much thicker, high-pressure pipes. Last year, Lord Martin Callanan, the energy minister, candidly described the plans to replace our gas boilers with hydrogen boilers “as pretty much impossible”. 


Hydrogen has two big problems which turn any project into a dead whale exercise.

The first is that pure hydrogen doesn’t exist – it’s both everywhere and nowhere. We must generate all the hydrogen we can then use, and this requires a lot of energy. This is fine when the output of the process is something very valuable to us, such as fertiliser. But less so when the output of the process must compete with much cheaper commodities, as it must in an energy market.

Secondly, hydrogen’s intrinsic physical properties create a whole range of unique problems. It’s a tiny atom that easily escapes confinement. Keeping it captive for storage is expensive, and moving it around safely even more so, because in liquid form it must be very cold.

Hydrogen advocates tend to shrug off these issues – solving them will be someone else’s problem, they reckon. Individually, none of these factors make hydrogen as an energy carrier or storer impossible, but the whale-like properties are becoming harder to ignore.

To replace gas boilers with hydrogen boilers requires thousands of miles of new, much thicker, high-pressure pipes. Last year, Lord Martin Callanan, the energy minister, candidly described the plans to replace our gas boilers with hydrogen boilers “as pretty much impossible”.

Wrong, m’Lud. It’s not impossible – it’s just a supremely bad idea. And when hydrogen explodes, it is quite spectacular. Right on cue, Australia’s first hydrogen carrying ship set sail for Japan this year, and burst into flames on its maiden voyage.

Again, hydrogen powered transport is not impossible, it’s just hampered by reality. Liquified hydrogen may be as light as petrol or kerosene, but keeping it at -257C requires much heavier apparatus. Converting a two engine turboprop from kerosene to hydrogen, I noted here recently, increases the weight of the engine from two tonnes to 13 tonnes.

As for storage, the story is little better. Wind often generates electricity when it is not needed (and doesn’t generate it when it is needed). So when the wind is blowing, the hydrogen lobby argues, we can create “green hydrogen” using electrolysis. These electrolysers are expensive, and sensitive, and switching them on intermittently to produce the mythical green hydrogen isn’t economic.

So green hydrogen is really not one, but two dead whales, engaged in a gruesome act of congress.

In his devastating assessment of the Government’s energy paper, Prof Dieter Helm calls it a “lobbyist’s utopia”. Prof Helm, an energy expert, describes how rent-seekers “[react] to each problem… by inventing another intervention. Each has unintended consequences, and these unintended consequences need more ‘fixes’”. That’s green hydrogen in a nutshell.

Green hydrogen may be generated reliably and cheaply using high-temperature gas-cooled nuclear reactors (HTGRs), a technology the Japanese have been refining for two decades. Japan’s first HTGR opened in 1997, but incredibly, was out of commission for a decade.

The history of nuclear energy is full of such stories, of untapped potential, and of avenues not explored. Our own Government tepidly hopes for a “HTGR demonstration by the early 2030s at the latest.” But even with a fleet of HTGRs generating hydrogen, the nasty stuff still needs to be stored and moved, and those costs haven’t gone away. Using hydrogen remains the worst way of doing almost anything.

Special interest groups however have discovered that the magic words “net zero” have the same incantatory power as “Open Sesame!”. In Arabian Nights, the phrase opened up a cave full of treasure. Here, they open up an unlimited trove of research grants and subsidies, and tap into abundant buckets of ill-directed “green” capital. The dead whale is never removed from the beach – and perhaps that’s the point.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/16/great-hydrogen-swindle-green-gas-not-seems/

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April 18, 2022 3:55 am

Hydrogen is a very simple and easy to use fuel, if one uses a very simple change: add some carbon to make a hydrocarbon. It can then be easily stored, easily pumped, and the output is just water and plant food … how much greener can we get?

michael hart
April 18, 2022 6:19 am

“These electrolysers are expensive, and sensitive, and switching them on intermittently to produce the mythical green hydrogen isn’t economic.”

I’d like to see some more detailed analysis of that claim.

I can easily believe that a hydrogen distribution network makes little sense when there is a good electrical grid that can do the same thing. But excess wind energy is sometimes sold at less than zero cost. Why not convert it to hydrogen at a central facility, mediated by the electrical grid?

Reply to  michael hart
April 18, 2022 10:57 am

Try having an intelligent read of this:

https://refhyne.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/D7.2-report-v7.0-clean.pdf

It’s a report on Shell’s REFHYNE electrolysis project at the Wesseling refinery. It goes into the economics of low utilisation of electrolysers, which isn’t pretty. They also talk about the economics of hydrogen distribution to filling stations, which again isn’t particularly pretty.

As to whether you can have a way to use the surplus economically, a look at this chart should tell you that intermittency is going to make it very unlikely: most of the surplus is too costly to harvest (especially if you have to bump up grid capacity to move it to electorlysers conveniently located next to salt cavern hydrogen storage)

https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/nZM72/1/

I hope that answers you questions.

Cuyana
April 18, 2022 6:49 am

Excerpted from the 3rd paragraph of the above article: “Nor at the end of the day will an EV be able to boast any CO2 emissions savings, we now know, thanks to Volvo.”

I’ve done an “un-extensive” online search … and I could not find any Volvo article referencing any such CO2 emissions study.

Is this Volvo study something of a “landmark” or seminal study?

If yes, particularly, I am interested in finding and digesting this paper … because, intuitively, I sense that EVs eventually will dominate the globe; however, because of their inherent multitude of drawbacks, the world still needs to recognize that, at the moment at least, such are not the panacea which many profess them to be.

Would be appreciated if someone can provide a link to this Volvo document. TIA.

catcracking
Reply to  Cuyana
April 18, 2022 1:06 pm

I can confirm the above comments having worked on hydrogen reformer furnaces. the outlet headers of these furnaces is about 1500 psi and at 1500 F and above. if there is a burning leak it cannot be seen in daylight. As I recall it can be seen at night. One particular furnace had a outlet header failure and pieces of metal flew around the plant denting adjacent pressure vessels. One cannot exaggerate the hazards of handling Hydrogen but the dangers don’t matter if it is green.

Alastair Brickell
Reply to  catcracking
April 18, 2022 8:23 pm

Many thanks for adding some real world practical experience to this discussion.

Only in the magical world of misty eyed greens is hydrogen ever going to be a good idea for transport, especially on roads shared by others.

April 18, 2022 6:56 am

Computer scientists at Stanford and MIT in the 1970s came up with a wonderful expression for this, an assignment that was technically feasible, but highly undesirable. They called it “kicking a dead whale down a beach”. 

I don’t think the origin of this phrase has been conclusively established. I believe I first saw it in the July 1978 edition of the Bell Systems Technical Journal, devoted to UNIX and the C programming language. My copy has been long since lost. As I recall the statement was made about the unpleasant user experience with IBM’s MVS/TSO (Time Sharing Option); from the context the author was most likely Ken Thompson or possibly Brian Kernighan. None of that excludes that he got it from someone else who said it earlier. Pithy sayings have a way of being widely repeated.

OweninGA
April 18, 2022 7:52 am

I have another issue with hydrogen as a common fuel: When it burns, the flame is invisible (UV output primarily). If there were a hydrogen fire about ones boiler, one would only recognize it by the things around it catching fire. If a line leak occurs and ignites, one could literally only find out about it if one happened to walk through the flame and incinerated oneself.

At the local plant that produces and stores various industrial gasses, they keep straw brooms at all the entrances to the hydrogen processing area and anyone entering the area is supposed to take a brook with them to check for burning hydrogen. If the broom bursts into flame turn around and go back the way you came.

Now imagine a car with a large enough hydrogen tank to have a 500 mile range. Someone runs a red light and plows into the car releasing that tank of hydrogen. Very likely everyone in both cars would burn to death before anyone knew they were on fire.

April 18, 2022 8:07 am

Had reason recently to lookup specs on Toyota Mirai, a hydrogen fuel cell (HFC) car currently available in California and Hawaii (Oahu). I was curious about the storage tank pressure. The specs at Edmunds say the Mirai has two “70 MPa” tanks for a claimed range of 402 miles.

An “MPa” is a megapascal, and is about 9.8 atmospheres or 145 psi. So 70 MPa is about 690 atmospheres, or roughly 10,150 PSI. A standard aluminum scuba tank is filled to 3,000 psi — less than a third of the Mirai’s hydrogen tanks.

A full scuba tank is nothing to mess with; people have been killed by catastrophic tank failures. US regulations require interior visual inspection annually and hydro testing at 60% overpressure (5,000 psi) every 5 years to verify expansion is within safe limits.

I don’t like the idea of sitting on top of a tank of anything at those pressures, and I really don’t like the idea of all the distributed high-pressure fueling infrastructure required to support a large population of HFC vehicles.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
April 18, 2022 11:27 am

This is like unchained gas bottles in a lab, aka torpedoes, a huge safety no-no.

April 18, 2022 8:15 am

We must generate all the hydrogen we can then use, and this requires a lot of energy.

More energy to generate than we get back out of it. That simply makes no sense.

Tom.1
Reply to  TonyG
April 18, 2022 8:44 am

What do you mean when you say it takes more energy to generate than we get back out of it? In any case it does not matter. What matters is the cost effectiveness, period.

Reply to  Tom.1
April 18, 2022 12:41 pm

It takes about 5-7 times the energy to electrolize hydrogen than you get from the resultant hydrogen. How is that efficient or economic?

Tom.1
Reply to  Slowroll
April 18, 2022 2:52 pm

I’m not sure how you arrive at that figure, but the cost effectiveness depends on the amount of usable energy produced vs. the capital and others costs to produce it. Since, practically speaking, we cannot manufacture energy, the value of energy made available to an end user is the sum of all the costs going into collecting it, transporting it, and converting it, etc. Energy, however you get it, is essentially free, delivered by nature. Production of hydrogen by electrolysis, is in and of itself, is a very efficient process, like 80%. You need to explain the 5-7 times number.

Reply to  Tom.1
April 18, 2022 3:51 pm

It is not efficient at all. Quite simply, you need to expend more energy to separate hydrogen from either hydrocarbons and especially water than the the usable energy that you then get get from the hydrogen. One learns that in basic chemistry. Your 80% figure is made up.

Tom.1
Reply to  Slowroll
April 18, 2022 8:00 pm

Yes, the 80% number is probably too high; it was just the first number that popped up when I did a search. According to the link below a better number is in the range of 60 to 80 percent for several different technologies. In any case, it’s fairly high as energy conversion processes go, and it’s not something anyone learns in basic chemistry.

Technology Brief: Analysis of Current-Day Commercial Electrolyzers: National Renewable Energy Laboratory (Fact Sheet) (nrel.gov)

Jack
Reply to  Tom.1
April 19, 2022 1:02 am

Producing hydrogen through electolyzers needs very pure water, which you can get by bidistillation. First energy waste.
60 to 80% efficiency of electrolyzers is the maximum you can get when the electric energy input is very steady and constant, which is not the main feature of the one produced by the wind mills.
Then the compression process to reach a high pressure storage such as 800 Atm requires much energy. 3rd energy waste.
Then you have to heed the yield of the fuel cell you will feed the hydrogen in to produce the electricity that will make the wheels running. It’s not more than 60%.
While the yield of a Li/Ion battery is close to 80%.
Adding all the yield losses of every stage of the hydrogen production, storage and its conversion to electric energy will show an overall much lower yield than the Li/Ion battery, that’s obvious.

Reply to  Tom.1
April 19, 2022 7:17 am

So you lose 20-40% of your energy just in that step of the process. How much loss is there in the other steps?

I don’t see anyone here arguing that it’s not possible at all, just that it’s not feasable as a viable form of mass energy delivery due to the technical challenges. You seem to take that as people saying it’s totally impossible.

Tom.1
Reply to  TonyG
April 19, 2022 11:40 am

A lot of people here only look for and exaggerate any potential problems. Often, they cite things that are irrelevant, such as hydrogen embrittlement or the Hindenburg disaster. Safety problems are exaggerated. The author of this thread cited in incident on a liquid hydrogen ship that was due to equipment malfunction and did not result in significant damage. There was a failure to note significant facts about the story; it was misleading. He also suggests that hydrogen is difficult to contain because of the “tiny molecules”. This is just an engineering problem that has already been solved many times over. Here is a link to a company that is offering commercial electrolyzers for hydrogen production. Read what they have to say. I do recognize that switching to electrolytic hydrogen is not and maybe never will be cost effective. I’m just saying that the only real impediment to using it is the cost.
Leading platform for distributed generation of electricity and hydrogen | Bloom Energy

paul courtney
Reply to  Tom.1
April 20, 2022 6:18 am

Here, we see Mr..1 posting H2 company sales brochures, but he’s not in favor of it. Above, he says that the technical feasibility is the point, but here Mr. roll’s “5-7” numbers is not an economic analysis, and we need to look at the economics. Oh well, at least he didn’t try to shade the website this time.
Oh wait, he did, albeit he limits it to “a lot of people here” this time. Mr. .1, I can’t speak for other commenters here, but I do get irritated when you insist on posting immaterial comments, which you later admit were not material. Transporting a bit of H2 does not solve the engineering problems of using it to heat homes or generate grid electricity, and a fire aboard that particular ship (on its maiden voyage?) is a story about risks in upscaling H2 that you, for some reason, think we should stop talking about. The details were linked, right? If you like the sales brochures, you buy in

Dennis G. Sandberg
April 18, 2022 9:10 pm

Quick, somebody, tell Canada, Shell and Mitsubishi what they plan to do for blue hydrogen is impossible and can’t work / sarc

10 September 2021 21:45 GMT UPDATED  10 September 2021 22:07 GMT
By Naomi Klinge   in    Houston 

Anglo-Dutch supermajor Shell and Japanese giant Mitsubishi announced a memorandum of understanding to create a blue hydrogen production facility in Alberta, Canada, as part of Shell’s previously announced carbon capture and storage hub.
Mitsubishi would build the hydrogen facility near Shell’s Scotford refinery facility, with Shell providing carbon dioxide storage with the proposed Polaris CCS project.

Dave K
Reply to  Dennis G. Sandberg
April 19, 2022 6:47 am

Quick, somebody tell Dennis to read the first paragraph. Oh and greenwashers will always want to make more money.

Bartemis
April 19, 2022 1:14 am

I suppose we have literal oceans of it stored away, but has anyone actually done any calculations to see how much hydrogen we would lose due to leaks, and what impacts that would have? Even more so than helium, hydrogen will rise and achieve escape velocity, and then it’s gone forever.

April 20, 2022 4:39 pm

I propose a simple method to tame hydrogen’s difficult properties. Add one carbon atom to four hydrogen atoms and produce a much easier to handle substance called methane.

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