From the MANHATTAN CONTRARIAN/ Francis Menton
Here’s the single most important function of this blog: Saying the things that are patently obvious but that just can’t be said these days in polite society. Yes, it’s The Emperor’s New Clothes every day here at Manhattan Contrarian.
With war raging in Ukraine following Russia’s invasion, there is a renewed concern in many quarters for “energy independence.” Until recently, the sophisticated countries of Europe had thought the whole idea to be passé. They built large numbers of wind turbines and solar arrays, while simultaneously banning fracking for natural gas and shuttering electricity plants that used coal and even those that used no-carbon nuclear. Suddenly, at the very worst possible time, they found themselves completely dependent on Russian gas for heat and reliable electricity. In the U.S. it’s not nearly so bad (yet), but the combination of the Ukraine invasion with the Biden administration’s resumption of Obama’s war on fossil fuels has also left the U.S. vulnerable to an oil and gas price spike on world markets, whose supply side has been artificially reduced by government hostility to production of fossil fuels.
So what’s the answer? If you are a member in good standing in American media/academia/environmentalist/Democratic Party society, the answer is obvious: Just build more wind turbines and solar arrays until you have enough. These facilities will count as “domestic” electricity generation, and therefore will quickly lead to “energy independence.” What could be easier?
So permit me to say the blindingly obvious: No amount of incremental wind and solar power can ever provide energy independence. Electricity gets consumed the instant it is generated. Electricity is consumed all the time, and therefore must be generated all the time. Indeed, some of the peak times for electricity consumption occur on winter evenings, when the sun has set, temperatures are very cold, the wind is often completely calm, and the need for energy for light, heat, cooking and more are high. During such times, a combined wind and solar generation system produces zero power. It doesn’t matter if you build a thousand wind turbines and solar panels, or a million, or a billion or a trillion. The output will still be zero.
And calm winter nights are just the most intense piece of the problem. A fully wind/solar generation system, with seemingly plenty of “capacity” to meet peak electricity demand, will also regularly and dramatically underproduce at random critical times throughout a year: for example, on heavily overcast and cold winter days; or on calm and hot summer evenings, when the sun has just set and air conditioning demand is high.
And thus it is time for a roundup of recent calls for massive building of wind and solar facilities in order to achieve energy independence.
From UK think tank Carbon Tracker, March 2: “It makes no sense to lock countries into fossil fuel dependent power grids over the medium term, . . . . Instead, Europe could rapidly reduce its reliance on Russian gas (and fossil fuels more broadly) by accelerating the implementation of . . . investments in renewable energy technologies as well as focusing on energy efficiency measures.”
From Sammy Roth at the LA Times, February 26: “[D]oubling down on oil and natural gas isn’t the answer [to dependence on Russia], some security experts say — and neither is energy independence. The war in Europe adds to the urgency of transitioning to clean energy sources such as solar and wind power that are harder for bad actors such as Russia to disrupt, those experts say.” (The article primarily relies on an “expert” named Erin Sikorsky of the Center for Climate and Security.)
From MarketWatch, February 26: “As grim as the reality of a conflict in Ukraine may be, economically, it may serve as a major catalyst for Europe’s decarbonization efforts, forcing governments to invest in earnest in greater zero-emissions renewable energy sources and the electrification of cars and homes. Doing so could secure energy independence from a Vladimir Putin-led Russia that’s proving to be a greater security threat by the day, say green-energy proponents and other global market-watchers.”
From Energy Monitor, March 7, reporting on statements from two think tanks called Ember and E3G: “Policies to further accelerate the roll-out of solar and wind power, and therefore reduce Europe’s reliance on Russian gas, will not have any impact in the immediate term. ‘But renewables growth can be much higher than planned from 2024–25 onwards, provided the policy framework is put in place right now,’ says Moore [of Ember]. . . . In a briefing whose release coincided with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the think tank E3G also advocates a ‘fast expansion of renewable energy and interconnections for the power sector”, which aims at “reducing structural gas dependence for system balancing.’”
From Scientific American, March 9, reporting on a statement from Frans Timmerman, chief “climate” official of the European Union: “The [EU’s] plan lends support to a package of legislation that aims to cut Europe’s greenhouse gas emissions 55 percent by 2030, and it would also ease European concerns over its energy security, said E.U. climate chief Frans Timmermans. ‘Renewables give us the freedom to choose an energy source that is clean, cheap, reliable and ours,’ he told reporters yesterday.”
There is essentially an infinite supply of such completely ignorant statements out there on the internet if you choose to spend some time collecting them. The quoted statements and dozens or hundreds more of same just blithely assume, or assert without basis, that sufficient numbers of wind turbines and solar panels can liberate us from fossil fuels, without ever mentioning or discussing the issue of energy storage.
Continuing with what is completely obvious but unmentionable in polite society: Since combined wind and solar power facilities regularly produce no power at all when it is most needed, a wind and solar generation system will either be (1) dependent on fossil fuel backup, or (2) dependent on storage for backup, or (3) both. If it is taken as given that the whole idea is to move away from fossil fuel backup, then everything comes down to storage. A fossil-fuel-free system based on wind and solar generation is completely useless without sufficient storage to cover all times of insufficient simultaneous generation.
To propose energy independence based on wind and solar without fossil fuels, you must, repeat must, address storage. How much is needed? How much would that cost? What loss of energy will be incurred on the turnaround between charge and discharge? Is the cost feasible? How long must the energy be stored between generation and consumption? Do batteries or other storage devices exist that can store energy for such a period without most or all of it draining away? Has there ever been a demonstration of the feasibility of a fossil-fuel-free system based only on wind, solar and storage?
Try to find any mention of these issues in any of the pieces linked above, or in any of the many others you might find advocating more wind and solar facilities as the solution to dependence of Russian gas supplies.
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On the other hand, we could “let” Russia take back the Ukraine and continue business as usual. That would be a lot cheaper and a LOT more humanitarian compared to a hot war.
I really think another world war over Eastern European politics is a bit much.
BTW, a third or less of energy use is for electricity in most countries. Replacing all of our electricity with renewables would have no significant impact on atmospheric CO2.
It is all fraud.
If your home is next to a dark cave inhabited by a grumpy giant with a grudge, it is wise not to provoke him.
“Net Zero” = zero electricity.
= compete independence
The world operates regulation and economic realities with regulation driving the economic realities.. We have seen in repeated posts in WUWT how solar and wind at the grid level do not cut the mustard economically without some sort of subsidy, which is what utilities are all about. Yet solar/tegs at the level of my house could provide a reasonable and profitable adjunct to CNG. oil, coal for off grid solutions. What is missing is an affordable commercialized Next Gen Battery/or SCMES/generator system that would make my desired off grid system viable. A scalable model using solar/tegs/hydrocarbon fuels could be applied to home, business, farm etc. The only reality I care about is economic. But it seems the oil companies and utilities are wise to people like me seeking carbon taxing regulations at the state level with anti-off grid regulations piggybacking the legislation. This effectively destroys any potential demand for a commercialized system for off grid solar/teg/hydrocarbon fuel electrical generation, storage and distribution systems. The Navy has tested systems using self contained SCMES and gas turbine electrical generation, storage distribution systems and they work. A Next Gen Battery or SCME would enable that same system to be scalable to the home level with solar and TEGS and an adjunct input. But the Greenies have been pushing for utility level renewables only and in concert with the oil companies been fighting against off grid solutions. WUWT.
Oh come on people! Dare to dream. Low “carbon” and net zero are both incredibly cheap and easy to achieve. Yemen and Haiti are practically there already.
And North Korea?
Intermittents/renewables and a toxic Green blight throughout its life cycle form recovery to processing to operation to reclamation. That said, we should all stand up for climate, developmental, evolutionary stasis.
Paul Homewood today is commenting on a report from Timera energy on the UK energy deficit in the context of net zero by 2035
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2022/03/16/the-uks-rapidly-emerging-power-flex-deficit/#more-55882
I hope that he will not mind me copying out some of his summary which seems very pertinent to thias discussion , for the UK at least and probably for other nations
Whereas wind power current fluctuates between about 2 GW and 10 GW, by 2030 the range will be 4 GW to 32 GW.
That reminds me of a quote by Otto Von Bismark:
“Stupidity is a gift from God.
But it should not be abused.”
The answer you seek is nuclear power, and lots of it. The rest is just wasted capital.
I have been making the same argument for years. No mention was made of how much land would be needed to install all the solar, wind and battery storage facilities. It is enormous. Only an idiot could believe this is possible.
Sadly we have many such idiots right here in Australia. So stupid that they can’t see the disaster that is unfolding in the Northern Hemisphere. They are destroying some of Australia’s most beautiful country in the pursuit of clean, green energy. In the name of a lie. We’re going to be world leaders they say, even as Germany is collapsing. I am feeling such a profound sense of loss.
Here’s a look at what has actually been happening in the GB grid as we have moved towards more renewables in the mix. We’re actually using more gas than in 1997!
When gas became expensive in 2011 in the aftermath of Fukushima, which led to high LNG demand from Japan and high prices in Asia, the UK quietly switched back to using a lot more coal. Until the coal fired stations started closing at the behest of the green gods. Wind has eroded the margins on baseload coal and nuclear, and it is these that it has replaced, while the rising volatitlity of wind output means we have to make good using interconnector imports and gas as the flex generation.
“So permit me to say the blindingly obvious: No amount of incremental wind and solar power can ever provide energy independence. Electricity gets consumed the instant it is generated. Electricity is consumed all the time, and therefore must be generated all the time.”
Energy storage makes this fundamental assumption untrue whether you believe it can be practically
and economically done with current technology or not.
It can’t be done, regardless of whether it’s economical or not.
Why?
Impossible to build enough batteries.
Even if one were to increase the number of battery factories 100 fold and devote 100% of their output to these grid level batteries, it would still take decades to build enough batteries to make a difference.
Even at that pace, before you could finish building out the number of needed batteries, you would have to divert most of the new output to replacing the batteries as they age out.
In other words. It’s impossible.
Impossible to build enough batteries.
I would really like to see someone propose how to achieve “net-zero” in the proposed time frames using the current state of technology and production.
I agree. The time frames people are “aiming for” are unachievable. But that doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t be done at all.
That a ridiculous argument. Building them over decades is what is needed. Also technology improvements will definitely help over that time.
Batteries don’t last decades.
There are no technology improvements to be had.
Your view on the world gets more bizarre with every post.
Just as an aside, you’ve described the extent of the of problem of moving to another energy source. It will take decades, many of them.
And that’s why we need to be doing it now because fossil fuels will deplete and production rates will be ever harder to achieve, its just that most people on this forum in particular dont see the time frames where that happens as being a problem.
If magically we get fusion to work and its actually viable then great! But I dont think we should bank humanity’s future against that one and we should collectively be putting in the effort to avert that energy crisis before it hits.
We have hundreds of years of fossil fuels left. Don’t sweat it.
After that we have hundreds of thousands of years of nuclear energy.
Moving to another energy source before it is necessary is a complete waste of money. Though I’m not surprised that someone who thinks turning over industrial policy to government is a good idea, would have trouble seeing that.
Whatever drugs you’re on, sure are good ones.
So many people assume that renewable electricity generation will eliminate fossil fuel dependence. Not so; worldwide electric generation accounts for 20-25% of fossil fuel use and a somewhat higher percentage of CO2 emissions because a large bit of that is coal.
Oil/gas/coal are also used for:
According to this chart from Our World In Data:
In many cases there are no feasible alternatives to fossil fuels (e.g, making new primary steel). But even if we had an alternative, expanding what currently supplies 5% of world energy use to replace the 84% currently provided by fossil fuels is NOT going to happen on the “net zero” timeframes adopted or advocated by any of the usual suspects.
Hopefully the chart will be attached somewhere to this comment.
Every Step towards ‘Net Zero’ ADDS to Fossil Fuel consumption, somewhere in the World. Every component in every solution to ALL the ‘Green Energy’ solutions Requires the burning of Fossil Fuels. The production of Solar Panels consumes more Energy from burning Fossil Fuels that they will EVER replace during their productive life span. Electric Cars cause MORE fossil Fuels to BE burned than what is burned in Gas Cars, OHM’s Law.
The whole ‘Market-Based Carbon Emissions Trading System’ is little more than a ‘Magician’s Trick’ all the credits are given to industries that ‘Appear’ to be ‘Emissions Free’ if ALL the input costs, the ‘Embodied Energy’, is ignored. All energy production from ALL sources is poison to Planet Earth. The whole ‘Green Energy’ program is ‘Elitist Propaganda’ coming from little more than wishful thinking and good intentions. Meanwhile Planet Earth gets More Polluted than under Status Quo. It’s like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic in the hope of ‘Righting’ the ship. A fools game with NO Scientific relevance !
Batteries, Renewable Energy and EV’s – The Ultimate in Environmental Destruction | Jim Le Maistre – Academia.edu
Electric Cars – Burn 31% More Energy than Gas Cars (Revised) | Jim Le Maistre – Academia.edu
Excellent. We need to stop all subsidies for wind and solar. Wind and solar need to build their own back up systems. Fossil fuel, nuclear and hydro should not be allowed to prop them up. Wind and solar either works or it doesn’t. If it works stand on your own and show us. In the meantime stop using fossil fuel, nuclear and hydro as life support. You people (wind and solar) are shameless parasites.
It’s ironic that intermittent renewables like wind and PV require “back-up” power sources that have to operate 60%-70% of the time. Don’t call it renewable power with back-ups; it’s reliable power with renewables intermittently skimming demand (and profitability).
It’s worse than that. They require back up power sources that have to operate 100% of the time. The reason for this is because you never know when the wind will stop blowing or when a cloud will pass over the solar field, and it takes time to spin fossil fuel power sources up from idle. As a result they have to be kept in hot standby, waiting to take over at a moments notice.
Australia to close 8 GW of coal power by 2030. Inevitably these won’t be replaced by coal or nukes. 8 GW is quite a lot. So I ran the numbers on what will happen if we try and replace them with renewables. Given that many other countries are pursuing the same pipe dream (I’m looking at you USA and Europe), battery supply is going to be an issue. With renewables you need at least a 5 day backup, as continent wide wind droughts are not uncommon in winter
lost coal plants 8 GW
lost coal plants 8.00E+09 W
lost energy per day 1.92E+11 Wh
5 days backup for winter 9.60E+11 Wh
Hence kWh of battery 9.60E+08 kWh
Global production 2021 2.78E+02 GWh
Global production 2021 2.78E+08 kWh
Years of production 3.45 years
So for the east coast of Australia by 2030 we need 3 years of global battery production. There is a new hydro scheme that will help, but that is the order of magnitude of the issue.
Americans buy 16 million (plus) cars and trucks per year … the global production of Lithium is 87,000 metric tons … which is enough Lithium to build about 1 point 2 million vehicles …
(i.e. less than 10% of the new vehicles sold in the US)
net zero has to be one of the biggest mass delusions in history … and will kill as many people in the end as every communist/fascist monster has this century …
Plus the IEA say the world faces potential shortages of lithium and cobalt as early as 2025.
No practical amount of storage will ever be sufficient on its own. If you have enough storage to fill in the gaps for (say) 1 month of low wind, what if there’s low wind for 2 months? If you enough storage for 2 months of low wind, what if there’s low wind for 3 months?
Of course longer periods of low wind are less frequent than shorter ones, but they will happen. Can you afford to go without power for a few months in the middle of winter when a rare, once-in-50-years low-wind event happens, as it could, by chance, in any year?
https://brilliantlightpower.com/tpv-suncell-test-at-2-stations/
Magic
No Amount Of Incremental Wind And Solar Power Can Ever Provide Energy Independence
No for that you need lots of safe reliable battery storage and in lithium we trust. Err…no wait a minute….
The Sunken Cargo Carrier Felicity Ace Is Now a Pollution Hazard for Undersea Life (msn.com)
I call them magic batteries, because magic.
The wienies talk about this or that tech that will give 50% improvement over best today.
That is 0.5 when we need 10 or likely 100 times.
Magic
Personally I think Syndrome had it right
Zero point energy
Sounds cool whatever it is
While it is politicians who make the rules and, certainly in the U.K., few are technically minded (Or even numerically minded it would seem) they are advised by various bodies. What expertise these bodies have seems to be short on technical knowledge and long on hope and rose tinted glasses.
The U.K. is committed to zero carbon generation by 2035, with no hope that nuclear could make the shortfall from intended fossil fuel generation.loss. It is often said that gas provides back up for low renewable output but that understates the importance of gas (And coal for a few years). In order for a grid to function it must run at very close to a specific frequency and to do that requires a controllable source of power, generators with a throttle, without them the grid will trip. Renewables have no such throttle and are essentially uncontrollable. This is over and above intermittency.
To compound the folly, vehicles and domestic heating are being mandated to use electricity as a fuel increasing the problems of de carbonising. It’s beyond science fiction.
Hey, on a cold, dark, windless night just plug your home into an EV powered truck! (Sarc off)
Has anyone realised despite the huge increase in “renewables “installed capacity or output in Europe, wind, solar , electricity production ,wind 2005 = 41,000 MW till 2020 =220,000 MW , solar 2004 = 550 MW till 2014 =17,000MW , Biofuels (best data ) 2007 = 89,000MW , plus the huge take up of electric cars around the world , plus the global slowdown caused by covid over the last 2 years , despite all this presumed enormous reduction in atmospheric CO2 , it has not deviated one iota from it’s upward path : see – https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1018