EV Chargers To Be Separately Metered

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT

By Paul Homewood

 A few weeks ago, the government announced plans for new regulations, requiring domestic electric car chargers be programmed only to work at off peak times.

This was clear admission that car charging would simply overload the grid, if drivers charged up during the evening as most likely would.

It appears there is more that we were not aware of, as one reader has received this message from Vodafone:

image

LeasePlan UK also cover this on their pro EV website:

Forget about all the weasel words – the plan is clear; if the grid is overloaded, we can forget about charging our cars at night. We can only charge up when the National Grid says we can.

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Curious from Cleethropes
January 7, 2022 2:05 am

And if they are metered separately, they can be taxed separately!

Spetzer86
Reply to  Curious from Cleethropes
January 7, 2022 4:07 am

Heck, it actually says they can be independently controlled. Wonder how far your social score needs to drop before the car only partially charges? Maybe the governments just decide you don’t need to go anywhere today? or tomorrow…

Ron Long
Reply to  Spetzer86
January 7, 2022 4:25 am

Yea, Spetzer, not only controlled but drained into the grid. We keep going from “my dog ate my homework” to things like “boss, I can’t come to work today because I was drained last night.”. What a New Age of declining culture.

Joseph Walker
Reply to  Ron Long
January 7, 2022 5:04 am

Excellent point Ron. We’ll have to look at the specs and make sure that “drain” function is disabled and the “only at off-peak” is not turned on for Hollywood and certain areas in D.C. Unless the vote wrong. Thanks…

Rick C
Reply to  Joseph Walker
January 7, 2022 8:54 am

I foresee an app that tracks you EV charging status and notifies when they start draining your battery so you can go and unplug. Seriously, who would buy an EV knowing they won’t have control over charging the battery?

AWG
Reply to  Rick C
January 7, 2022 3:29 pm

Doesn’t every charge / recharge cycle diminish the life of the EV’s battery? So the authorities, when using your battery as a grid leveling asset are not compensating you for wear and tear on your battery.

Drake
Reply to  AWG
January 9, 2022 1:16 pm

At this point in time, where EV owners are using the roads that GAS taxes pay to maintain and who have received tax breaks from the Fed and many state governments, I say, tough crapola.

Hopefully the monitoring of the charging will include a surcharge as a road tax comparable to the current gas taxes imposed directed to road building and maintenance.

Lee L
Reply to  Rick C
January 8, 2022 11:23 am

Rick C…
‘who would buy an EV knowing they won’t have control over charging the battery’

Well.. the they’re the same people who would not realize that their utility suplied smart meter(mine is an Itron OpenWay supplied by BC Hydro) is capable of supporting bidirectional inhouse network connectivity.(such as Zigbee). to electrical consuming ‘smart’ appliances. These connections are painted as ‘monitoring capable’ enhancements. In truth, a Zigbee connection is an architecture allowing commands TO the stove, TO the a/c unit, TO the clothes drier etc. from the controlling node ( ie Smart Meter). Your smart meter as sold, has the capability of controlling the operation of any of these ‘smart’ appliances. No clothes drying, no electric heating,no A/C, no charging cars until Zigbee tells it to accept a RUN command is one possible outcome of this architecture.
These are also the same people who can no longer even buy a major household appliance (such as a clothes drier, an electric stove, an electric furnace, an a/c unit) that isn’t cabable of connecting to a Zigbee network.
Some utilities do already offer the service to control residential heating and A/C as a service. This is sold as a means of reducing Tier charges.
How long before your municipal government passes a bylaw that demands full Zigbee connection of all major electrical appliances INCLUDING car charging?

Smart meters weren’t really about the dangers of radiated energy. They are about stealth installation of energy consumption control into all households.

And that’s who would buy an EV… because they don’t know the infrastructure to control its charging times is already in place in their home.

Bryan A
Reply to  Ron Long
January 7, 2022 5:12 am

Per my Local Utility, currently Peak Time is from 4:00pm until 9:00pm. So pretty much once you get home with your depleted battery you won’t be able to plug in until after 9:00pm and so will be stuck there. Your battery will only be charged for 8-9 hours for as much KW as can be pumped at that time. If you only have the standard 120v charging cable, you might not be HALF CHARGED in that time. Government regulations will do everything that can to ensure your EV remains a toy

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 5:19 am

But when everyone begins to charge after 9 M, those hours will be added to the Peak Time frame. And so on and so forth.

John Sandhofner
Reply to  Tom in Florida
January 7, 2022 4:52 pm

Exactly. You have only extended the peak time frame. But no genius lefty ever thought of that problem.

Bryan A
Reply to  Tom in Florida
January 7, 2022 6:42 pm

Too true…peak will shift

Ron Long
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 9:41 am

OK, but they’re not going to do this to electric golf carts, are they? Because, you know, that’s important (18 handicap, but learning to cheat better).

Bryan A
Reply to  Ron Long
January 7, 2022 9:40 pm

Yeah Golf is Hell Especially with all those Little Wind Mills and Castles getting in the way

Drake
Reply to  Ron Long
January 9, 2022 1:20 pm

I bet you have a hole in a pocket to “find” that lost ball in a good lie.

meab
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 10:01 am

Most 120V circuits (in the US) deliver a maximum of 1.5 kW. 8 hours of charging at that rate would put 12 kW-hrs into your battery. That’s a ~20% charge on many EV batteries, good for ~36 miles of driving (20 in winter). Very few people could get by with only a 120V charger but that’s maybe the only thing you’ll have (in the US) if the goobermint shuts off your 220V EV charging circuit which could happen just like in the UK. You’ll have to run a heavy duty extension cord from a non-metered circuit to the garage to get a few kW-hrs.

AWG
Reply to  meab
January 7, 2022 3:31 pm

I understand that many home generators can run on propane, natural gas, gasoline or diesel. These generators can kick out 10kWs at 240V.

Dennis G Sandberg
Reply to  AWG
January 7, 2022 7:14 pm

The Cali governor saw that coming so he made them illegal.

PCman999
Reply to  meab
January 9, 2022 12:28 am

Looks like the charger itself can get a signal from the utility to shut itself off. Probably counts what utility you’re with and if you have a smart meter that probably acts like a router of somekind, or at least allows the signal through. That gives me a thought, that 1:1 transformers, that would block the data signal, will become a hot item, as well as Powerwalls or other batteries to allow unfettered charging and a guarantee that your ev will get you where you got to go the next day. A home turbine and nice set of solar panels would be nice too, if they free…

Drake
Reply to  PCman999
January 9, 2022 1:24 pm

All great solutions for the very well to do virtue signaler.

Drake
Reply to  meab
January 9, 2022 1:22 pm

Into the garage?

Are you crazy?

Do you WANT to burn your house down?

MarkW
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 10:25 am

Once the entire country goes EV as they are trying to force on us, 24 hours a day will be “Peak Time”. Most of us will get at best trickle charging for a few hours a night, while the politically connected will never have to worry about not getting their cars charged.

Bryan A
Reply to  MarkW
January 9, 2022 9:27 pm

They must get a charge out of Politics
Find a politician you like and stay connected

Robertvd
Reply to  Ron Long
January 7, 2022 7:15 am

What a New Age of Serfdom/Slavery. It seems there are still a lot of folks who think we are free people. Well I can tell you we are not. One clear example is Direct Taxation that gave those in power the right to know EVERYTHING about you. Just try not to pay your ‘fair share’ and find out how free you are. Slavery has never been abolished just changed the way it looks. At least in the past you could become a free man in some countries today we will be slaves forever.

Drake
Reply to  Robertvd
January 9, 2022 1:33 pm

Along with Direct election of Senators and the creation of the Federal Reserve, these were the “progressive” actions that began the downfall of the good old US of A.

However you do not need to undo the direct taxation constitutional amendment to terminate the IRS.

Please see the Fair Tax.

Hundreds of thousands of tax enforcers, tax attorneys, tax advisers, etc. etc. out of work and out of your pocket. Let the commie states demand filing of their own income tax requirements without being able to glom onto the US requirement, and watch all the major corporations leave NY, Chicago, SF, etc. And if they DON’T leave, have the SEC sue the boards and executives for the shareholders for the failure of the boards to look out for their best interest.

meab
Reply to  Ron Long
January 7, 2022 9:42 am

The more a battery gets charged and discharged the faster it degrades. The EV’s DC battery would need to be connected to the grid through an inverter which can (potentially) be disabled if the EV owner doesn’t want the goobermint ruining their battery.

MarkW
Reply to  Ron Long
January 7, 2022 10:23 am

The only problem with this is that there are currently no cars on the road with the circuitry to support draining the battery into the grid.
The additional circuitry will have to be mandated by government and will add several hundred dollars to the cost of each EV, as well as increasing weight and taking up space.

Ted
Reply to  MarkW
January 8, 2022 6:13 pm

Ford advertises their new F150 can power your house, but really it’s about the circuitry in the charger than in the car.

Bill Powers
Reply to  Spetzer86
January 7, 2022 6:28 am

Clear and insightful, on the social scoring, ala Communist China, Spetzer. Dare to push back against the collective hive mind? In the not too distant future cancellation won’t mean getting kicked off twitter or You Tube. It will mean loss of job because you could not make it in to work. It will give “cancelled” a whole new meaning.

Davidf
Reply to  Bill Powers
January 7, 2022 12:48 pm

You mean like, loss of job because you have a problem with a particular vaccine?

Gums
Reply to  Curious from Cleethropes
January 7, 2022 9:00 am

Wait, wait!
We are talking about the U.K., right?
Gums asks…

MarkW
Reply to  Curious from Cleethropes
January 7, 2022 10:21 am

At least that way, electric cars can at last start paying for the roads they are using.

Davidf
Reply to  MarkW
January 7, 2022 12:50 pm

Meh, thats easy. Diesel cars in new Zealand are required to buy Road User Charges by the km. Im willing to bet they legislation to apply that to EVs is sitting there ready to be rammed through the House

Mike Lowe
Reply to  Davidf
January 7, 2022 4:16 pm

If not, it should be!

Davidf
Reply to  Mike Lowe
January 7, 2022 5:27 pm

Yes, you are quite correct. But in this at least, our Government is rational in seeking to achieve its aims – regardless of the lunatic nature of those objectives. Given the astonishing lack of abilty to execute anything at all to date, Im rather surprised.

January 7, 2022 2:07 am

comment image

Climate believer
January 7, 2022 2:14 am

Luckily hardly anyone in the UK has an electric car. Imagine if the graph was reversed…deep do-do.

number_of_cars_in_UK_by_fuel_type_2.png
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Climate believer
January 7, 2022 3:58 am

They think they have problems now! Wait until they implement their all-electric vehicle plan.

What a fiasco this fake CO2 climate crisis is! Thanks to the liar, Michael Mann and his cronies.

They have successfully lied to leaders of the western democracies. As a result of those lies, the western democraces are in the process of destroying themselves trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist.

Michael Mann and his merry band of Temperature Data Mannipulators are the only “evidence” for this CO2 crisis. Our only source saying CO2 is a problem is a bunch of climate change liars.

People in the future will look back in amazement at this insane era of human stupidity and gullibility. And it all leads back to Michael Mann.

Michael Mann will be infamous in the history books.

Last edited 18 days ago by Tom Abbott
Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 7, 2022 4:22 am

the western democraces are in the process of destroying themselves trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist.

No , no. They are trying to fix a problem that they created to solve a problem that doesn’t exist!

Climate believer
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 5:02 am

Welcome to the EU.

Bryan A
Reply to  Climate believer
January 7, 2022 5:18 am

EVs will, by necessity, need to require the installation of Rooftop Solar with a wall mounted Battery Back-up (Powerwall) and a Quick Charger such that the EV recharges off the Battery through the QC at night and the QC Battery is recharged from Solar during the day

Don Perry
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 5:46 am

Then you get to go to work only when the sun shines the day before, that is, IF your garage doesn’t burn down from that battery. That’ll be a real boon to productivity.

Dave Ward
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 6:09 am

“Is recharged from Solar during the day”

Which (in the UK at least) means little to no useful range for 3-4 months of the year.

As I write this, Gridwatch http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
shows Solar as providing just 1.8% of UK electrical demand…

Kevin Stall
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 7:50 am

Roof top will belong household circuit, not on the cars charging circuit. That one will include fee for road use.so no cheating the government by using your own juice. Have an idea of a generator to make your own charge, that will probably be illegal.

Kenji
Reply to  Kevin Stall
January 7, 2022 8:00 am

Just rent some farmland and cover it with solar panels. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 8:36 am

Not everyone has access to enough roof to keep them rolling.

meab
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 10:07 am

Pity the apartment and condo dwellers, many millions of them, who don’t own a roof.

MarkW
Reply to  meab
January 7, 2022 10:29 am

Or a place to park their cars even if they did have a roof.

Ted
Reply to  meab
January 8, 2022 6:24 pm

Those apartment dwellers are all supposed to be using mass transit anyway.

meab
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 10:17 am

With battery backed up solar charging your EV you’ll have to replace two batteries (the wall battery and the one in the EV) every 8 to 10 years or so. These large batteries cost 10s of thousands of dollars. Non-starter.

mrsell
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 11:21 am

Just wait until the government decides that your neighbors need power from your rooftop solar more than you do…

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 12:39 pm

But you’ll be required to hook the Battery Back-up battery to the grid so that it, too, can be drained to make up for the “renewables” failure to supply sufficient energy to the grid.

Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 4:26 pm

Brian,
As I’m sure you know, at this time of the year – early January – the Sun, where I live [in South London], is about 16 degrees above the horizon. At meridian passage. Daylight of any sort – about 8 hours.
Sun is moving north, for sure.
But at the Equinox, March 21st (usually), it is still only 39 degrees up.
At Noon.
Less then that for the other twelve hours of daylight.
Subtract more than three degrees for Newcastle-upon-Tyne – and subtract five for Dundee.
Struggle to get too much juice here, never mind the North of England [Levelling Up territory], for three or four months of the year, at least.
And, of course, it’s England, so – clouds; rain; even snow occasionally, all cut the solar input.

Auto

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Climate believer
January 7, 2022 8:34 am

EU rhymes with “zoo.”

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
January 7, 2022 8:49 am

Replace “z” with “p” in that statement, and you are closer to reality.

mspsgt
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 6:14 am

They aren’t trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist, they are using a problem that doesn’t exist to destroy (in the case of the US) a democratic republic and install Marxism.

Robertvd
Reply to  mspsgt
January 7, 2022 7:25 am

You have been living in a Marxist US since at least 1913. When the economy is centrally controlled it is no longer a Free Market economy. Direct Taxation is another sign you no longer live in a Free country.

meab
Reply to  Robertvd
January 7, 2022 10:25 am

The economy in the US isn’t centrally controlled. The US goobermint siphons off a large percentage of the economy and controls much consumption but production is mostly still in the hands of private individuals and corporations.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  meab
January 8, 2022 2:57 am

Yes, there is lots of Free Enterprise going on in the United States.

That’s not to say the socialist are not trying to turn the US into a centrally-controlled economy, controlled by them, but they haven’t been able to do it so far, and if we get past this next year, they may not be able to do it at all, as political power changes hands.

Robertvd
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 8, 2022 3:56 am

It has never been about socialism. Those are just puppets in the hands of the wizards behind the curtain. We really think Biden has any power? AOC has any power ?

Robertvd
Reply to  meab
January 8, 2022 3:50 am

Now tell me that a central bank/(not)Federal Reserve printing money like there is no tomorrow isn’t a centrally controlled economy. And in 1935 Germany production was mostly still in the hands of private individuals and corporations. That doesn’t mean it was not a centrally controlled (socialist) economy.

David Brewer
Reply to  Robertvd
January 8, 2022 8:15 pm

You aren’t really wrong, but the real problem is that most people don’t understand the nuance of communism vs fascism. I don’t know if that’s the “correct” term, but basically as I’ve always seen it:
Communism is the economic model used by a tyrannical government when it directly controls everything about the economy.
Fascism is the economic model that a tyrannical government uses when it controls an intermediary (in modern terms this would be the corporations) that control the economy.

Presently, we don’t exactly fit either because neither the government nor the big businesses have total control over the economy but they are working to strangle all of the competitors to big business. Which gives them the best of both worlds because the government will argue that it doesn’t control the economy or the corporations and thus will blame the corporations, and the corporations will just blame government policy and all the shit will fall between them on the citizenry.

Ultimately, the real irony of the “left-right” debate here in the states is that Democrat vs Republican basically boils down to the form your tyranny takes. Neither set of politicians (with maybe a few exceptions… extreme emphasis on maybe) wants to do anything that won’t enhance the power of the government and bring additional tyranny. Thus, why both sides support (although the Republicans are more “cautious” and frequently “oppose” it yet don’t actually stop it) the absurdity of AGW.

Last edited 17 days ago by David Brewer
John Savage
Reply to  David Brewer
January 9, 2022 8:47 pm

“Communism is the absorption of the individual into the class. Facism is the absorption of the individual into the nation. Nazism is the absorption of the individual into race.”. – Fulton Sheen.

The are all collectivist ideologies in which individual identity is eliminated in favour of a group.

1098GIG
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 3:22 pm

The problem they are trying to solve is empowered people. This has and always will be about control, power and money. This way, they’re getting the populous to benevolently hand them control to be saved from a ramped up, faux problem. They know there’s barely enough electricity at present and that the grid won’t power all of these cars, not without a move to significant nuclear power. They want control, control, control and the $$$ that go with it.

Drake
Reply to  1098GIG
January 9, 2022 1:44 pm

Just think what the grid would be like if LED lighting hadn’t come along to reduce lighting energy usage.

Joseph Walker
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 7, 2022 5:06 am

What a fiasco this fake CO2 climate crisis is!

Robertvd
Reply to  Joseph Walker
January 7, 2022 7:28 am

No it isn’t. For those in power it all goes as planned. Of course they could print all that was needed to buy/corrupt the system.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Robertvd
January 8, 2022 3:00 am

“No it isn’t. For those in power it all goes as planned.”

Maybe not. They seem to be having problems. They are losing credibility.

Robertvd
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 8, 2022 4:10 am

To centrally control an economy is expensive. You will eventually run out of other people’s money and that is when the printing starts and now you can’t stop printing because the house of carts would fall apart. 
The end result will always be poverty nothing on the shelves and a population with nothing to lose. That is when the fun part starts. Think of BLM riots but BIGGER.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Joseph Walker
January 8, 2022 3:27 am

It bears repeating. 🙂

John Adams
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 7, 2022 9:12 am

Don’t forget that propagandist Al Gore.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  John Adams
January 8, 2022 3:17 am

Al Gore deserves mention, but Al Gore, along with all the other alarmists would have nothing to point to as evidence that CO2 is a threat except for the bogus, bastardized temperature record created by Michael Mann and the Hockey Stick Team.

Gore would have nothing to show as “evidence”, if he didn’t have the bogus Hockey Stick Chart.

The bogus Hockey Stick Chart is the only thing on Earth showing the Earth is experiencing unprecedented warming today. Without the bogus Hockey Stick Chart, there would be no CO2 crisis because it would be seen that nothing unusual is happening with the Earth’s temperatures or weather.

Michael Mann and Cronies enabled this Climate Change Big Lie. It could not have been done without their distortions of the temperature record.

When challenged about the temperature record, what do the alarmists do on this website? Why they post one Hockey Stick chart after another. It’s ALL they have. It’s really kind of pathetic expecting people to acknowledge the validity of a chart that everyone knows is bogus. Except for the alarmists, I assume.

The Hockey Stick Chart is a distortion of reality, easily proven by comparing it to any unmodified, regional surface temperature chart from around the world, which shows a completely different temperature profile where it was just as warm in the recent past as it is today, which means CO2 is at best, a minor player in the Earth’s atmosphere and is not causing unprecedented warming today.

It all comes back to Michael Mann and Crew and the distorted temperature record they have created. This is what has western politicians destroying their own nations trying to fix something that doesn’t need fixing.

CO2 is a harmless, gas that is essential for life on Earth. It is not dangerous to humans or the Earth, and does not need to be regulated.

Michael Mann has led a lot of people astray with his climate change deceptions. And it’s not over yet.

David Brewer
Reply to  John Adams
January 8, 2022 8:22 pm

How dare you forget that he invented the internet!!!

Kevin McNeill
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 7, 2022 11:04 am

He doesn’t care, as long as he is in the history books!

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Kevin McNeill
January 8, 2022 3:25 am

He’ll be in the history books, just maybe not portrayed the way he would hope.

Kenji
Reply to  Climate believer
January 7, 2022 7:56 am

No problem! Just burn more wood chips to generate more “clean” “green” “carbon neutral” electricity! Hell … the US and Canada are simply COVERED in forests that haven’t yet been clear cut! Gotta increase the number of ships steaming across the Atlantic.

Robertvd
Reply to  Kenji
January 8, 2022 4:13 am

Just think about it. Just 24 000 years ago there would have been no trees in what today is Canada.

katphiche
January 7, 2022 2:19 am

This in UK, correct? But probably coming to a country near you as well.

Laertes
Reply to  katphiche
January 7, 2022 2:41 am

They’re mandating Smart Meters in the whole Europe. The plans are for rollouts in the coming years, and for percentage-based plans, like for Poland for example.

Smart Meters will enable the government to control what you can do and not do at your own home.

AdenWs
Reply to  Laertes
January 7, 2022 2:56 am

People will just rewire.

Burgher King
Reply to  AdenWs
January 7, 2022 4:57 am

People will just rewire? Sure. At least until the energy police analyze your power consumption patterns and discover these to be far outside the norm. At which point they arrest you and haul you off to a re-education camp somewhere.

Don Perry
Reply to  Burgher King
January 7, 2022 5:44 am

Or to prison for tax evasion.

aamillereng@gmail.com
Reply to  Burgher King
January 7, 2022 8:48 am

Lowry? (“Brazil”)

PCman999
Reply to  AdenWs
January 9, 2022 12:47 am

You can’t tamper with the smart meter nor elect to have a dumb one instead, if you want to stay connected to the grid.

Drake
Reply to  PCman999
January 9, 2022 1:51 pm

And due to the power company tariff, you can’t even go OFF GRID if you have had power to your property. This was all fought out about 15 years ago when a lady in Florida got solar, batteries, etc. and told the power company to get off of her property with their smart meter.

The courts required her to pay the minimum service charge, even if she had no service.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Laertes
January 7, 2022 4:26 am

Smart Meters will enable the government to control what you can do and not do at your own home.

‘Smart’ anything is an invitation for someone else to control your property. My homes (yes, I have more than one) are as dumb as most politicians, and will remain so as long as I own them. My cars too (and, yes, I have more than one).

Last edited 18 days ago by Zig Zag Wanderer
Robertvd
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 7:35 am

So you also don’t walk around with a cellphone and only pay cash.

David Roger Wells
Reply to  Laertes
January 7, 2022 4:53 am

Then they will wake up one morning with the economy dead and buried the debt burden beyond recovery millions dying from hypothermia and Boris would do what? Scratch his arse and say but the good news is with fewer people on the planet the crisis will go away, problem solved.

Robertvd
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 7:38 am

Boris is just a puppet like Biden. They do as told by their masters behind the curtain.Boris is everything he promised not to be.

Reply to  Laertes
January 7, 2022 6:20 am

comment image

When did this idea originate? I wrote about it in 2009 but do not know when it started or if I originated it.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/10/polar-sea-ice-changes-are-having-a-net-cooling-effect-on-the-climate/#comment-63388
[excerpt]

Storage of electricity is much easier said than done.

One interesting idea for electricity storage is a “super battery”, consisting of many plugged-in electric cars. This should be possible in a decade or two.

Wind power is supposed to work well in conjunction with (excess) hydro power, but I have not seen this clearly demonstrated.

I have studied this subject and in conclusion I am yet not a fan of wind power.

Regards, Allan

Last edited 18 days ago by Allan MacRae
Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Allan MacRae
January 7, 2022 8:42 am

With higher tax rates, there goes the argument for EVs being cheaper to run than ICE vehicles.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
January 7, 2022 7:12 pm

The last analysis I read stated that EV’s were ~50% more expensive per mile than ICE vehicles.

PCman999
Reply to  Allan MacRae
January 9, 2022 1:01 am

Please provide a link for the analysis that you trust. So many sources now provide ‘woke’ analyses that try to add on stupid charges on ICE vehicles, like for traffic accidents – as if an EV can’t get into a fender bender.

PCman999
Reply to  Allan MacRae
January 9, 2022 12:58 am

The EV’s battery is for the EV not to make up for the government’s mismanagement of the grid and power generation. Think Rube Goldberg devices. Cars plugged in charging so that either the power is used to drive to work and back, etc., and just in case, used to peak-shave because prime time costs twice as much as other times. This while the utility gives away excess wind power for free or pays other utilities to take it because it would be cheaper than paying the turbine operators to curtail.

Drake
Reply to  PCman999
January 9, 2022 1:57 pm

As posted above, you take the tax break, you OWE the government the use of your battery.

Robertvd
Reply to  Laertes
January 7, 2022 7:33 am

Everything that uses electricity has its own electronic signature. They know exactly what device you are using if they want to.

James Bull
Reply to  Laertes
January 8, 2022 12:40 pm

So far as I changed my energy supplier they have asked if we would like a smart meter I’ve asked the caller how changing the measuring device will it save me money? Not had a sensible answer yet.
It’s like all this green nonsense it’s about control, their control of us proles and I’m not keen on being under their control

James Bull

Drake
Reply to  James Bull
January 9, 2022 2:01 pm

Where I live, LV, NV, US, everyone has a smart meter already unless they guarded their property, posted no trespassing signs, etc.

Most meters are accessible from the front of the house with no barriers from the street and the power company just changed them out.

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  katphiche
January 7, 2022 4:17 am

‘Smart Meters’ were installed here 54246 a couple of years ago. Our situation is unusual in that we have an effective 2.5 MWe ‘fuse’ in our ten mile long underwater power cable.

We have been cautioned against the effects of quick recovery tankless electric water heaters and of EV chargers.

Reply to  Doug Huffman
January 7, 2022 12:46 pm

You have been foolish to install this; for you are now in the hands of others where your energy needs are concerned ( Hackers, supplier or government. You name it).
Best enclose it in a Faraday cage; but wise to make easily removable in the event of the energy police knocking on your door in the middle of the night.

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Alasdair
January 8, 2022 3:24 am

I did not install the Smart Meter, but my ex-REA co-op did. Our electrical power supply is far more constrained than what you are familiar. On the other hand, I have two Smart Meters, the other for heavily subsidized electric heat power and a good trade off.

PCman999
Reply to  Alasdair
January 9, 2022 1:04 am

You don’t get a choice! The utility forces it on you – it’s not like a smart thermostat.

Joe Gordon
January 7, 2022 2:20 am

On the plus side, your monument to the perpetual war against reason will stand a much lower risk of spontaneous combustion while it sits collecting dust.

PCman999
Reply to  Joe Gordon
January 9, 2022 1:14 am

Wouldn’t it be more likely to overheat and catch fire if the charger and battery are used for grid backup as well as one’s transportation? The car’s battery never gets a chance to just sit and be left alone. I’m lucky – if I had to get an ev I only have to drive 10kms to work, and so after a 100kms during the week + 1-200km other kms it could sit charging during the weekend when demand is low and grid won’t need to steal my power or my batteries’ precious cycles.

Drake
Reply to  PCman999
January 9, 2022 2:04 pm

The exact situation where an EV may be useful.

I am sure you have an ICE vehicle for other uses like trips, vacation, etc.

fretslider
January 7, 2022 2:35 am

People with an EV here in my part of London run a cable out from their house using their domestic supply

They don’t have a charger

John Tillman
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 2:49 am

How long does that take?

fretslider
Reply to  John Tillman
January 7, 2022 3:08 am

Hours and hours

Bryan A
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 5:44 am

Using DC voltage, (P(w)=V(v) x I(a) Watts = Volts x Amps) the “Cord” you run from your domestic source will be charged at 120v and pull a maximum 15 amps. At that rate you will get 1.8KW per hour. An 85KWh Tesla Battery would take 47 hours to recharge from empty. Recharging from 9pm til 6am would only allow for a 16KWh charge
Using AC power decreases the 1.8KW/h to 1.5KW/h
Using 240v instead halves your time
Using a 50A 240V charger though allows you to effectively pump 12KW/h and recharge 85KWh battery in 7+ hours
Caveat
This would require the separate metering and separate charging point setups per EV

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 6:01 am

This is London, Bryan, his mains voltage is 230. Typical outlet is for higher wattage appliances is fused at 13 amps.

pigs_in_space
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 8, 2022 12:01 am

Have you actually ever tried to get one of those crappy square plug British things to supply 13A?

The old style 1950s-1060s ones with round pins were phased out because “they used too much copper” – so cost too much to make. (but had several variants inc the largest ones which could actually be used to run a decent size monophase welding set).

Those were the only ones which could actually stay cool and deliver what it said on the tin.

30-40 years later…
In my experience just getting a 2 bar electric fire to run off a UK square pin plug, makes them so hot you can’t touch the pins after 10 mins…that’s about 6A.
use anything over that?
FORGET IT, quite apart from the true quality of most UK house ring mains….with cheap small gauge cabling.

Pat Smith
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 9:19 am

Imagine when 33 million cars and 5 million vans/lorries get home at 6pm and plug in and take 12kW each = 480 GW in total = more than 10 times the current peak load on the system. No wonder the government is scared.

Bryan A
Reply to  Pat Smith
January 7, 2022 9:55 pm

Recharging 1 car overnight with a 50A charger produces 12kVA of load demand. Having 2 EVs per household would increase the demand to 24kVA for charging. That demand would require a 25 KVA Transformer for every service as a minimum which leaves room for about 8kVA of demand from the house usage before the transformer is too near overloaded for a second service to another house.
Aside from the additional generation demand placed by EV charging load, additional infrastructure upgrade would be necessary

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Bryan A
January 8, 2022 3:06 pm

Lots of infrastructure upgrades. Every transformer from the HV line to every substation etc. will be needed. In most cases every distribution line will also need upgrading.

PCman999
Reply to  Pat Smith
January 9, 2022 1:29 am

😱 … Wait, how is the government scared if they keep ratcheting up the stupid as far as EVs, heat pumps and other electrification is concerned? I think even a co2 apocalypse true believer would at least wait until the green crap could handle the existing electrical demand before adding on many more times that trying to take over transportation, heating and industry.

H.R.
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 3:17 am

How often do they have to replace their stolen cables?

fretslider
Reply to  H.R.
January 7, 2022 3:19 am

Nobody steals them

It’s not like there’s any real demand for them

Spetzer86
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 4:08 am

Your typical gang of “youths” will ultimately find that situation amusing…

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 4:19 am

Ho ho! There is for the copper in them! Bought a quality high capacity extension cord recently? I thought not.

I use a corded electric snow thrower on a 125’ 18 Amp extension cord.

fretslider
Reply to  Doug Huffman
January 7, 2022 5:30 am

I did buy some guitar strings.

Nobody has a snow blower in London and I’m talking about three or four cars in this area. Just a few.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 4:28 am

It’s not like there’s any real demand for them

You underestimate the value of copper. Just wait until the pikies (uk slang for gypsies) figure it out.

Last edited 18 days ago by Zig Zag Wanderer
fretslider
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 5:32 am

There isn’t anywhere here for the gippos to park up.

pigs_in_space
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 8, 2022 12:03 am

They already have,- they go for British rail cables in the night, which is often why the signals have gone out and failed early morning.
Pikeys love British rail, – by the time the theft is discovered the copper is already in the scrap yard and cash handed over.

Jim Turner
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 5:17 am

I get that you are being ironic, but theft of telephone cables is a real problem in the UK. Try searching ‘telephone cable stolen again’ (I was going to say ‘Googling’ but I don’t use their stuff if I don’t have to, and ‘DuckDuckGoing’ doesn’t really work as a verb for me)

fretslider
Reply to  Jim Turner
January 7, 2022 5:33 am

Nobody here – 3 or 4 cars – has had their cable stolen.

That’s a fact. Make of it what you will.

PCman999
Reply to  fretslider
January 9, 2022 1:33 am

You misunderstood – the previous comment to your original one was talking about power line theft, not the recharging cable.

Don Perry
Reply to  Jim Turner
January 7, 2022 5:52 am

DDG it.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Jim Turner
January 7, 2022 10:27 am

There have been several fatal accidents in the UK caused by low-IQ thieves trying to steal the copper from functioning electrical sub-stations. Darwinian selection in action.

Davidf
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 7, 2022 12:57 pm

Only if they havent already bred. Unlikely

Notanacademic
Reply to  Jim Turner
January 7, 2022 3:33 pm

DuckDuckling ?

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 3:41 am

Easily made illegal, only approved charge points to prevent battery fires and grid overload for example

Speed
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2022 3:48 am

If you have a house with a garage, it seems that you could park the car inside and charge it slowly (overnight) from a standard wall socket to beat the tax.

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Speed
January 7, 2022 4:22 am

15 Amps from a standard wall socket for 8 hours is only 120 AH ampere-hours.

Only credulous and salesmen own EV

Alastair gray
Reply to  Doug Huffman
January 7, 2022 4:56 am

Which is 30 kWhrs the capacity if a small EV battery . If all 30 million EV s were used for grid storage this would amount to900 GW hrs. Enough to back up today’ s grid for 1 day or 8 hrs in 2050

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Alastair gray
January 7, 2022 5:43 am

250 VAC ‘standard 15 Amp wall socket’? Nyaah, I don’t think so.

Which are you, credulous or salesman?

menace
Reply to  Alastair gray
January 7, 2022 8:13 am

I guess then you would have to be required to keep your EVs plugged in at all times while garaged at home to support grid storage.

Will they monitor your car’s location or proximity to the charger (via GPS or bluetooth) and fine you if you fail to plug it in?

menace
Reply to  menace
January 7, 2022 8:21 am

silly me, the car computers will be required “tattle” when you plug into the walls at home and when you fail to plug into the monitored charger

maybe they’ll honk your horn constantly if you fail to plug in after 15 minutes in the garage

MarkW
Reply to  menace
January 7, 2022 10:42 am

It won’t be difficult to have the car’s charging circuitry communicate with the stationary charger and refuse to connect if it isn’t an approved charger.
I had an HP laptop that used to refuse to use any charger that wasn’t from HP.

PCman999
Reply to  MarkW
January 9, 2022 1:37 am

It probably didn’t have enough amps. I even had trouble with the same brand but from a previous more frugal model not up to the task of powering a more advanced model.

menace
Reply to  Doug Huffman
January 7, 2022 8:07 am

A standard wall socket seems practical if you only drive like 30 miles a day a standard wall circuit should be able to keep it topped up.

If you have such a metered govt monitored 240V/30+A charger you might be tempted to plug into the wall socket instead on light driving days. But if they are using it for tax purposes and see you’re home is continuously drawing >14A all night on a smart meter that could be a means to ID and catch cheaters. However it seems that would require an overnight surveillance sting to make sure you aren’t keeping exterior and/or interior lights turned on all night. Would they call in for a court warrant and crash your door in the middle of the night to catch you plugging in?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  menace
January 7, 2022 8:48 am

A whole new meaning to the American slang word “plugger.”

AWG
Reply to  menace
January 7, 2022 3:42 pm

Do people have outdoor AC outlets in the UK like they do in most suburban homes in the US? One would think that running an extension cord to a neighbor’s outlet could produce some fun.

Drake
Reply to  AWG
January 9, 2022 2:48 pm

Another true story.

After the financial collapse of the mortgage derivative market there were a lot of houses, bought on spec as the market went up, that were left sitting empty in LV, NV. I got a call, I was a code enforcement inspector, about a property being occupied without a power meter.

The call came from a family member who feared the crack head brother living their would burn down the house. Also, the house was on a well so could not have sanitation without water. When I got to the house I saw signs of a cable running along a block wall at the back of the property and a hole through the wall at the ground. I went around the block and found that he had connected the cable to the AC compressor disconnect on an unoccupied spec house.

I was working for a new manager of that department and could not get him to do anything about the situation. The house was unsafe and unsanitary but he didn’t want the trouble.

I got out my leatherman, disconnected the cable from the disconnect and reconnected the AC unit, then hacked the cable into as many short pieces as I could. I threw them into my truck and never went back.

Luckily I transferred out of that department to the Fire department as Fire Inspector soon after. I heard of issues at that address within the year, a small fire, and yes, he still didn’t have a meter, no power, and was living there. I stayed away from that one.

pigs_in_space
Reply to  menace
January 8, 2022 12:05 am

It’s what the BBC do for their TV licence!

Drake
Reply to  menace
January 9, 2022 2:33 pm

True story.

My deceased father-in-law, a rather intelligent electrician, upgraded his house from an evaporative cooler to an AC system at the same time he put in a swimming pool.

He tapped off of the power company ahead of the meter and installed a small separate panel to power the compressor and pool equipment. He also added a welder outlet.

That setup didn’t set off any alarms because he did the change before adding new loads.

This went on for OVER 40 YEARS. After he passed my MIL called the power company about some issue and they found the tap. They required the equipment for be fixed but, because she had essentially nothing but her house, they only panelized her a couple thousand dollars.

Not honest but effective, I guess.

Second true story.

My brother in law (his son) lived in Cali in a rental house on oil company property in Huntington Beach in the early 80s. He somehow got a box of meter clips and a crimp tool. He would flip the meter for about 10 days every month and then replace the clip on the meter ring. The nut didn’t fall far from the tree.

This was in the days of meter reading by actual meter readers. He forgot to flip the meter one time and the reader caught him. It wasn’t long before the oil company terminated his lease.

Yes, he had a strip of land behind that house between them and the back neighbors with oil walls running down the space. Really nice quiet neighborhood with reasonable large houses. The pumps were running at that time and even then they looked pretty old. I didn’t see any pollution, no smell of oil or gas, etc.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Speed
January 7, 2022 4:31 am

And heat your home at the same time. Only once, though…

Bryan A
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 5:48 am

Sure makes your Marshmallows toasty though

MarkW
Reply to  Bryan A
January 7, 2022 10:45 am

Might coat your marshmallows with Li oxide.

Bryan A
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 5:48 am

At least it’s a radiant heat

PCman999
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 9, 2022 1:41 am

And generously keep your neighborhood warm too! How patriotic in these dark days of the climate crisis. Oh, the horror!

Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2022 12:50 pm

Hopefully they won’t get caught in a court case by someone tripping over the cable or having it cut by a nasty youth having a laugh.

TonyL
January 7, 2022 2:46 am

Well let’s just see here:
Who exactly, owns the car? Who exactly, owns the battery, especially?

“the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required.”

Oh My Gawd!
Charging is now a privilege granted or withheld on a whim. The government reserves to itself the right to use the battery for it’s own purposes, as it chooses.

The UK govt. is still at it.
This brings to mind a few things to those of us out in The Colonies.

1776 – The Declaration of Independence.
But before that, something happened of some note.

1775 – The battle of Lexington and Concord.
Made some noise: The Shot Heard Around The World.
But what were the British troops doing so far outside of Boston anyway?
They were attempting to enforce a ban on firearms ownership. They were attempting to confiscate the guns.
They got shot.

Seems there is a lesson in there, somewhere.

Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 2:51 am

Thanks for sharing it with us. Appreciate it.

John Tillman
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 3:57 am

There wasn’t a ban on firearms ownership. Thousands of armed militiamen descended on the Redcoat column retreating from Concord. The British Army mission was to find and destroy military supplies, including heavy cannon, hidden at Concord.

They didn’t find the stores at Barrett’s Farm, so well did my ancestors hide them. While some discovered powder was destroyed, the food and musket balls thrown in the mill pond were recovered.

Both the column and its rescuing brigade would have been captured, but an arriving militia captain let them escape into Charlestown, protected by Royal Navy guns.

Last edited 18 days ago by John Tillman
Drake
Reply to  John Tillman
January 9, 2022 2:52 pm

And a belated thank you to your ancestors.

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 4:27 am

Here is another lesson to be learned.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ began the Battle of Thermopylae.

The Battle of Thermopylae ended with the Epitaph of Simonides:
Ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

Ō ksein’, angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tēide
keimetha, tois keinōn rhēmasi peithomenoi.

O stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that
we lie here, obedient to their words.

Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and THE TRUTH

Last edited 18 days ago by Doug Huffman
SxyxS
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 4:29 am

Who owns the car,battery etc??

Well ,to quote the World economic forum
“you will own nothing and you will love it ”

So who are the owners?
UK,USA,the Queen?

“I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England.Let me issue and control the currency of a nation and i don’t care who made the laws”

Dean
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 4:57 am

So you have never heard of demand management being used in the US??

TonyL
Reply to  Dean
January 7, 2022 6:16 am

Demand management is the absolute proof that government has utterly failed in it’s primary task of providing abundant, reliable supply.
This is the bright red line that should *not* be crossed. Here is why:
At best, demand management is a short term solution to carry one over a tight time while new supplies are brought on-line.
Politics being what it is, immediately demand management is seen as “free” capacity. What was a stop-gap solution now becomes a permanent crutch enabling the system to hobble along while everybody responsible pretends that everything is just fine.
Events which caused the shortages should have caused a re-evaluation of policies which brought the grid to the breaking point. Things like “carbon free” and “renewables”. But no, demand management allows the political class to keep doing what they are doing right up to a catastrophic grid collapse.
Then:
Who, us??? It could not have been anything *we* did, right???

Finally:
It does no good to assign blame, we are all in this together.

And of course:
We are sure that there is plenty of blame to go around to all.

Graemethecat
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 10:32 am

“Demand management” is another way of saying “Communist rationing”.

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 12:52 pm

The Government has no task, primary or otherwise, to provide abundant, reliable power. The is up to the free market (would that it were free). If you disagree, please quote the relevant passages from the Constitution.

PCman999
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
January 9, 2022 1:46 am

You forgot about public utilities – not everyone lives in a capitalist paradise.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 5:22 am

Griff will eventualy show up here and say “No that’s wrong”.
Thank You Griff.

David Cage
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 6:17 am

They were careless enough to admit that lockdown was intended as acceptance training for precisely this situation of near zero mass mobility.

Dave Fair
Reply to  TonyL
January 7, 2022 10:29 am

Our nation’s Founders learned that lesson and responded with the 2nd Amendment. SCOTUS is in the (lengthily) process of slapping around the gun-grabbing Leftists.

H.R.
January 7, 2022 2:48 am

No worries for the ‘Green Blob’ leadership. Most of them drive or ride around in fossil fuel vehicles.

Derg
Reply to  H.R.
January 7, 2022 3:37 am

And fly private jets.

AdenWs
January 7, 2022 2:56 am

They should have smart meters too, and they should be on green tariffs only.
Then when the wind doesn’t blow, or blows too much, or the sun doesn’t shine, the smart meter cuts them off. It’s what greta would want.

Then they should have electric only driving licenses. If caught in a fossil fueled car, it will be crushed. It’s what greta would want.

Plus more tax solves every problem from general economic malaise to the queen’s std. We can tax them more. Heck, how about taxation in advance. It’s what greta woudl want.

BunyipBill
January 7, 2022 2:57 am

It doesn’t matter the brand or cost of an EV, you will never really own it. You’re reliant on the manufacturer to keep it mobile – the vehicle ‘talks’ to the manufacturer to enable software updates, charge rates, even entering the car. Now, with the UK government putting further restrictions in place, can someone tell me again how EVs are so great! (No, please don’t).

IanE
Reply to  BunyipBill
January 7, 2022 3:47 am

Yep, where’s GRIEF when you need him (/her/it)?

Spetzer86
Reply to  BunyipBill
January 7, 2022 4:12 am

My new Subaru has a bunch of security functions that can be enabled (for a price). Car location, remote opening (you’d have to assume you could also remote lock?), and other functions can be performed. Is that all that different?

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Spetzer86
January 7, 2022 4:34 am

My cars work as advertised for absolutely everything, with absolutely zero internet connection.

Last edited 18 days ago by Zig Zag Wanderer
Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 7, 2022 12:54 pm

That you know of (:-))

Rod Evans
January 7, 2022 3:09 am

Thank goodness we have that reassuring statement from Herr Schwab head of the WEF (woke empowered force)
“You will own nothing and you will be happy.”
Where would we be without those kind assertive words.
Heil Schwab!

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Rod Evans
January 7, 2022 5:13 am

Let’s go Brandon!

pochas94
January 7, 2022 3:29 am

That’s why the Dunning – Kruger sufferers running things can’t work. They work tirelessly at inverting reality. What you say is true is actually false, and here’s the “proof.” The problem is that nothing they say works, which puts society into the decline characteristic of all communist governments. 

Derg
Reply to  pochas94
January 7, 2022 3:39 am

Fear is freedom
Subjugation is Liberation

🤓

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Derg
January 7, 2022 4:37 am

Ignorance is strength.

Involuntary drugs are health.

Dominion is democracy.

Ed Zuiderwijk
January 7, 2022 3:31 am

Only charge overnight. With only a few hundred miles in your batteries when full. Forget any long journey.

The green dictatorship will make sure there is a journey you are not allowed to make.

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
January 7, 2022 4:33 am

See above, 120 AH

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
January 7, 2022 8:55 am

Reverting back to the culture of the Dark Ages when serfs had never been outside their village.

Right-Handed Shark
January 7, 2022 3:36 am

Buy yourself a diesel generator and charge whenever you want. Simples!

lmo
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
January 7, 2022 6:50 am

Between the car’s GPS, the car’s computer and the smart meter they will figure it out pretty quickly. A lot more effort is put into restricting actions than guaranteeing freedom.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
January 7, 2022 8:56 am

And don’t forget to buy a trailer so that you will never be without your charger!

Drew
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
January 7, 2022 1:56 pm

Where will you get the petrol/diesel from when its purchase and use is either forbidden or taxed beyond normal means.

Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2022 3:37 am

Anyone who bought/buys an EV in the beleif that the government of the UK wouldn’t replace the Excise duty and VAT it charges on petrol/diesel was living in cloud cuckoo land. It appears that on cold frosty mornings they may wake up and find that their battery that had some charge is now flat, their car charging point is off and their coffee is cold

fretslider
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2022 4:22 am

To recoup the lost fuel taxes etc they will switch to road pricing by the mile.

EVs are pretty heavy and do more damage to roads than conventional cars.

ANDY MANSELL
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2022 4:50 am

Sadly, it seems that cloud cuckoo land is overflowing and there is a long line waiting to get in. Almost everyone in our village is a rabid climate nutter demanding even more insane measures from an already insane government because of the climate crisis and for the sake of humanity! Electric scooters, electric bikes, dumping gas boilers, walking around with pieces of cardboard telling us how horrible we are, you name it- they’re doing it or demanding it. I’m doing my best to offset this by running a V8, eating lots of meat and using my tumble dryer to dry clothes instead of hanging them outside in the winter and hoping Greta blows hot air on them. I’m really popular.

Vuk
January 7, 2022 3:49 am

In the UK low demand is from 11pm to 5am.
comment image
If I’m correct, rapid charge could be up to 20kW, spare grid capacity at that period is 15-20GW, which means that less than one million cars can be charged at same time, while there is already about 850,000 hybrid or fully electric vehicles in the UK.

tygrus
Reply to  Vuk
January 7, 2022 4:55 am

What is the potential supply curve to match the demand? Day to day, season to season?
The grid has capacity overnight, as you said, but what generation type do they have at that time?
20GW / 34M vehicles x 6hrs = 3.5kWh each avg per night.
Excess solar during summer/spring/autumn could supply that much again per day.

So I guess we need a lot more solar on roofs & carparks for part of the year. Relying on wind is very challenging when it drops to 3% or peaks >85% when you assume average of 30%.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  tygrus
January 7, 2022 5:34 am

If you work the night shift then solar may work for you. Those who work during the day, not so much. If you expect every parking lot to have a solar farm then you are really dreaming.

AWG
Reply to  tygrus
January 7, 2022 3:51 pm

You also assume that solar runs at nameplate all of the daylight hours, year round, in all weather conditions, no exceptions.

Solar has never been considered dispatchable power. It is opportunistic power available when only weather permits.

Burgher King
Reply to  Vuk
January 7, 2022 5:10 am

The true goal is to largely eliminate personal ownership of cars and to force the great majority of the population into mass transit.

Ebor
Reply to  Burgher King
January 7, 2022 11:50 am

That’s what they want. In Portland OR they won’t expand the section of I-5 that’s a major bottleneck b/c then people won’t be incentivized to use mass transit, ride a bike, etc. You know b/c otherwise we’re all going to die VERY SOON!

Robert Hanson
Reply to  Ebor
January 8, 2022 11:56 am

Yep, the Governor of California said it right out loud a couple of decades ago. ‘We are not going to expand the roads, bc that will only encourage people to drive more’.

Which is obviously insane, as the actual pollution from cars stuck in grid lock far exceeds the Co2 resulting from cars driving quickly from place to place.

Peta of Newark
January 7, 2022 3:54 am
Kevin
January 7, 2022 4:01 am

This is inevitable. Fuel Duty raises some £28 billion a year. The government cannot give up that sort of revenue. At least it will wipe the smug smiles off the faces of EV owners who like to brag that it costs them a couple of pence a mile to drive.

Ewin Barnett
January 7, 2022 4:16 am

All as foreseen. A charger will need to ask for permission to connect and will need to also disconnect from the gridupon command. This means that an EV user cannot know if their depleted vehicle will receive a sufficient charge for any planned use. This must also apply to public charging stations. So an EV’s utility will be less than that of a conventional IC vehicle. Indeed, the EV user is now at risk of being stranded which might be a health/safety risk in extreme circumstances.

I am happy to see these limitations come out now before EVs get too endowed with political inertia. These limitations must enter the public policy discussion. People must retain their ability to own and use IC powered vehicles.

ANDY MANSELL
Reply to  Ewin Barnett
January 7, 2022 4:52 am

I agree 100%, but you do realise no one in authority is listening are even cares don’t you?

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  ANDY MANSELL
January 7, 2022 5:35 am

Refer back to the 1776 comment.

Y. Knott
January 7, 2022 4:33 am

It also means that they can draw-on your car’s battery for grid shortages – letting them claim “Our Renewable Energy plan is GREAT! Its inconsistent delivery of electricity has been nullified by TENS of THOUSANDS!!! ( – we hope – ) of EV batteries, saving all that excess wind-turbine electricity and feeding it back into the grid AS NEEDED!!!”

And after a windless night in the cold (or hot-and-muggy) season, your EV’s battery will have been drained back into the grid by morning, and you can forget about relying on your car to get you to work – its battery will be empty before you leave your house.

tygrus
Reply to  Y. Knott
January 7, 2022 5:06 am

They plan to limit how much the grid will drain the grid connected batteries. Eg. down to 50%, then they run out of blood to suck & claim the outcomes could not be predicted, worse because of climate change (without empirical evidence).

Jim Turner
Reply to  Y. Knott
January 7, 2022 5:59 am

What if you unplug your charged vehicle when you see the charge running backwards? Will that be illegal?

menace
Reply to  Jim Turner
January 7, 2022 8:33 am

I suspect new EVs will wirelessly communicate to the charging station and it will tattle on you if you don’t dutifully keep your EV plugged in at all times while garaged.

TonyG
Reply to  Jim Turner
January 7, 2022 9:46 am

Will that be illegal?

Almost certainly.

leowaj
Reply to  Y. Knott
January 7, 2022 6:24 am

You know some young gun thought this all up. “Hey, when the demand is high, we can use the peasants batteries to get a free boost of electricity!”

Peasants we are indeed.

ANDY MANSELL
January 7, 2022 4:39 am

I’ve been arguing against smart meters for years- usually to people rolling their eyes at me- because they’re two way and can be controlled by someone else. Maybe it’s nothing to worry about- I mean, we can trust the government, right? Ha- even if that were remotely true, why would anyone willingly allow something into their home that potentially allows someone/thing access to their electricity supply? Now this. I was planning to buy a few gas guzzlers to keep me going anyway. Not buying into any of this.

bluecat57
Reply to  ANDY MANSELL
January 7, 2022 6:33 am

GMTA ROFL

bluecat57
Reply to  ANDY MANSELL
January 7, 2022 6:33 am

No unintended consequences, only good feelings.

David Brewer
Reply to  ANDY MANSELL
January 8, 2022 8:32 pm

Famous words universally hated, “We’re from the government, and we’re here to help.”

David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 4:48 am

So they want people to buy EV’s to save the planet whilst at the same time reserving the right to curtail usage because they are aware that if everyone had an EV the UK could never install sufficient resource to enable the 24/7 usage of 32 million EV’s. And because the emphasis is on renewables and to stop a black crash during winter which would take a month to fully restart they will suck the charge back but of course they can only do this once. If the wind doesn’t blow for a second day exactly what happens then?

I have needed to dial 999 frequently in 2021 and the response was the waiting time is six hours. So your child gets croup your, partner needs to give birth, you charged the EV but by 3am the grid has sucked all of the juice back exactly what happens?

I find it amazing that only know after 40 years of bellyaching about climate and promoting the belief that renewables are the solution they are beginning to realise their bombastic bloody minded stupidity could never work even if the really was a climate crisis.

This is the reality. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Demand 23.11GW wind 1.09, turbines needed 184,800 or 462GW’sof capacity, 30.27GW’s wind 0.20GW’s turbines needed 1,328,800 or 3322GW’s, 32.59GW’s wind 0.10GW’s turbines needed 2,868,800 or 7172GW’s, 33.02GW’s wind 1.02GW’s, turbines needed 290,400 or 726GW’s, 36.58GW’s wind 0.90GW’s turbines needed 360,800 or 902GW;s, 25.60GW’s, wind 0.34GW’s, turbines needed 660,000 or 1650GW’s, 28.06GW’s wind 0.50GW’s, turbines needed 492,800 or 1232 GW’s, 31.64GW’s wind 1.27GW’s turbines needed 220,000 or 550GW’s, 33.38GW’s wind 1.25GW’s turbines needed 237,600 or 594GW’s, 32.25GW’s wind 0.75GW’s, turbines needed 378,400 or 946GW’s, 35.72GW’s wind 0.76GW’s, turbines needed 413,600 or 1034 GW’s, 36.34GW’s wind 1.38GW’s, turbines needed 228,800 or 572GW’s, 34.10GW’s wind 0.86GW’s turbines needed 352,000 or 880Gw’s, 34.54GW’s wind 2.13GW’s turbines needed 140,800 or 352GW’s, 33.38GW’s, wind 2.38GW’s turbines needed 105,600 or 264GW’s. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Consecutive days. Wind turbines for which each home is paying £350 a year in subsidy do not work 24/7 365 days of the year, they only work when the wind blows or the with solar when the sun shines. Pettigrew says Boris is falling behind on 40 extra GW’s yesterday we needed 10000GW’s to meet demand. Home gas boilers represent 0.09% of global Co2 emissions, China India and Africa are building 2650 new coal fired stations, how does the UK being Net Zero – whatever that disparate generality means – modify change moderate manipulate manage the way in which climate will change?  G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk)Demand 35.09GW, Wind 0.77GW, Turbines needed to meet demand 401,000 or 1002GW’s. Cost of providing 1,000 GW’s of wind turbine capacity £1.2 trillion repeated every 15/20 years. Lord Deben has predicted a peak winter load for an all-electric UK at 150GW’s which would be impossible to resource by 2050 or 2100, if ever. And if premised on wind solar and batteries then you would need to calculate the resource on the basis of no wind for at least seven months as happened in 2017. Demand 32.32Gw Wind 1.04GW, Turbines needed 272,800 or 682GW of turbine capacity. Demand 25.39GW Wind 2.09Gw, Turbines needed 109,178 or 273GW of capacity. Demand 36.22GW Wind 1.95GW turbines needed 163,800 or 407GW of capacity. Demand 36.72GW Wind 0.82GW Turbines needed 394,064 or 985GW of capacity. Demand 36.71GW Wind 0.70GW, turbines needed 461,472 or 1154GW of capacity. Demand 35.53GW Wind 1.61Gw turbines needed 194,128 or 485GW of capacity. Demand 35.71GW Wind 0.45Gw turbines needed 698,280 or 1745GW of capacity. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Demand 44.07GW, wind 3.04GW. Number of 2.5MW turbines needed to meet demand 127,000 or 319GW’s. Demand 44.68GW’s Wind 3.27GW’s Number of 2.5MW turbines needed to meet demand 120,208 or 300GW’s of turbine capacity. Demand 44.23GW Wind 2.93GW turbines needed 132,000 or 330GW’s. Demand 46.82GW Wind 3.54Gw number of turbines needed 116,336 or 291GW’s. Demand 36.90GW’s Wind 4.62GW’s number of turbines needed 70,400 or 176GW’s of capacity. Coal 2.86GW’s. Demand 39.88GW’s Wind 5.61GW’s turbines needed 61,600 or 154GW’s of capacity, Coal 2.84GW’s. So much for an extra 40GW’s how about the 3300GW’s we need right now? G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Demand 40.50GW’s Wind 0.27GW’s. Therefore today – Sunday – the UK would need 1.32 million 2.5MW wind turbines to meet demand or 3300GW’s of supply just to generate 40.50GW’s of electricity. You can get 1GW of reliable supply for £1 billion with coal or methane like 50GW’s for £50 billion. Each turbine costs £3 million therefore that is £3.9 trillion just for the turbines. Every MW generated by a wind turbine consumes 200 times more raw finite materials than a MW generated by coal or methane. You need 50 acres of land mass for 1MW of wind electricity so you would need 165 million acres of land but the UK has only 66 million acres. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Demand 43.64GW, CCGT 22.07GW’s Nuclear 6.30GW’s, Biomass 2.93GW’s, Wind 5.61GW’s, Coal 1.53GW’s, Solar 30GW’s. Therefore today to meet the demand of 43.64GW’s the UK would need 68,464 2.5MW wind turbines or 171GW’s covering 8.6 million acres. In 2017 the UK experienced 7 consecutive months of windless days. There is no battery that can store electricity for seven months but if it did exist the cost would be beyond £32 trillion. And it isn’t even winter yet? 27th November 2020 G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Demand 40.20GW’s CCGT 23.16GW’s (57.62%) Nuclear 5.73GW’s Biomass (Wood Pellets from USA) 3.01GW’s Wind o.44GW’s Coal 2.52GW’s Solar 1.2GW’s. UK would need 803,968 2.5MW wind turbines to meet demand or 2009.92GW’s of capacity. If solar 40GW’s of solar. At 1MW /50 acres Vattenfall would need 100 million acres of land – UK has 66 million acres – on or off shore to meet demand at a cost of £2.4 trillion. Whereas the UK could buy 50GW’s of coal or methane generation at £1 billion/GW. Lord Deben has not denied an all electric UK would have a peak winter load of 150GW’s 3.33 times our current peak load. Zero Co2 for the UK between £6 and £7 trillion.

Dean
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 5:02 am

Ever heard of paragraphs to make a wall of text more readable?

David Roger Wells
Reply to  Dean
January 7, 2022 5:33 am

Couldn’t be arsed. So you cannot argue with the content so you critique the presentation, that makes sense, not. That is how the BBC behaves when you complain about their coverage of climate because they cannot evidence what is speculation they criticise the volume of the complaint and the number of full stops and commas. Their favourite means of refuting a complaint is to say no evidence was provided but when you provide evidence they refer to that evidence as third party personal opinion even though it is the product of orbiting weather satellites which they use for their weather forecasts. Deluded.

MarkW
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 11:00 am

Life’s short. I have no way of knowing whether you post is worth reading until after I actually read it.
How can I argue against what you wrote, if you make not worth my while to spend the time figuring out what you actually wrote.
I strongly suggest that you get over yourself and spend some time thinking about how you impact others.

old engineer
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 2:33 pm

David-

While Dean’s response might have been a little snarky, he is correct.

YOU have information perinate to the topic, YOU want to share it. YOU want to convince people of your point of view. To meet YOUR goal, it behooves YOU to present that information in a way that is easiest to understand. After all, people are not required to read what you wrote.

To say you can’t be bothered to spend time on presentation, says that you don’t care if people read it or not. And since you don’t care, I didn’t read it.

twobob
Reply to  old engineer
January 7, 2022 4:49 pm

I might have information that is pertinent to the subject.
On December the 9th a product was launched.
That may change all, the thinking about Electrically powered vehicles.
I have order 11 of these,with an input of 1 Watt Dc to 100 Watts output.
12 volts in 12 volts out, can in series or parallel.
I know I will be disbelieved.
But so far 600,000 have be pre-ordered.
Please check it out. (no I will not give the site for ordering)

Doonman
Reply to  twobob
January 7, 2022 11:35 pm

Lets see now, power in DC Watts is defined as voltage times amperage. Since the voltage in this device is the same in and out, to get 99 free watts of output, all you need is a 99% percent increase in the amperage, not counting any copper loss.

That’s a great product. But where does the amperage come from? I’ll bet it’s pyramid shaped and has crystals inside, right?

twobob
Reply to  Doonman
January 8, 2022 10:27 am

Yes! you are correct, though possibly not the last paragraph.
Did you think it was to difficult to check out my submission.
You can get them in blue or white.
dimensions are:-17cm by17cm square 9cm tall.
Input voltage can be 12 volt AC or DC.

I watt input 100 watts output.

As described on the order form.

pigs_in_space
Reply to  old engineer
January 8, 2022 12:10 am

idem

twobob
Reply to  pigs_in_space
January 8, 2022 10:16 am

Ok! He who laughs last laughs longer.
I did imply that I would be disbelieved.
So! if you are of a mind, try E-cat.com.
Eric, did say he would consume his hat if this ever happened.
I await to hear the chewing sounds.

PCman999
Reply to  twobob
January 9, 2022 2:19 am

That’s ecat.com and what good is 12V at 100W? You ordered 11, better order another 89 so that you can run a small microwave, after you take the time to solder them all together and spend more money on an inverter.

If it works, why didn’t they come out with something with a decent capacity? This wouldn’t even max out a cheapo inverter I bought years ago to run my laptop in the car – before tablets and phones were a thing! Well ok, I guess it’ll be great for charging devices – does it need lead shielding??

Randle Dewees
Reply to  Dean
January 7, 2022 7:10 am

Agree, this might be worthwhile reading if it was more…readable

Reply to  Randle Dewees
January 7, 2022 4:59 pm

Plus one.
David, I’m sorry – but I looked down, and skipped your post after the first three or four lines.
Please consider these posts above before posting again. Thanks.

Auto

rhs
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 5:55 am

I would love be able to read this but the formatting needs some work.

David Roger Wells
Reply to  rhs
January 7, 2022 6:17 am

Its a list of numbers I would have thought it was patently obvious that the magnitude of the numbers would indicate the stupidity of believing renewables are a viable alternative to coal gas and nuclear.

MarkW
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 7, 2022 11:01 am

Nothing is patently obvious is the format makes it impossible to figure out what you wrote.

Don
Reply to  David Roger Wells
January 9, 2022 6:13 pm

Partially deciphered ! ??

wind 1.09, turbines needed 184,800 or 462GW’sof capacity, 30.27GW’s
wind 0.20GW’s turbines needed 1,328,800 or 3322GW’s, 32.59GW’s
wind 0.10GW’s turbines needed 2,868,800 or 7172GW’s, 33.02GW’s
wind 1.02GW’s, turbines needed 290,400 or 726GW’s, 36.58GW’s
wind 0.90GW’s turbines needed 360,800 or 902GW;s, 25.60GW’s,
wind 0.34GW’s, turbines needed 660,000 or 1650GW’s, 28.06GW’s
wind 0.50GW’s, turbines needed 492,800 or 1232 GW’s, 31.64GW’s
wind 1.27GW’s turbines needed 220,000 or 550GW’s, 33.38GW’s
wind 1.25GW’s turbines needed 237,600 or 594GW’s, 32.25GW’s
wind 0.75GW’s, turbines needed 378,400 or 946GW’s, 35.72GW’s
wind 0.76GW’s, turbines needed 413,600 or 1034 GW’s, 36.34GW’s
wind 1.38GW’s, turbines needed 228,800 or 572GW’s, 34.10GW’s
wind 0.86GW’s turbines needed 352,000 or 880Gw’s, 34.54GW’s
wind 2.13GW’s turbines needed 140,800 or 352GW’s, 33.38GW’s,
wind 2.38GW’s turbines needed 105,600 or 264GW’s. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) 
 
Consecutive days. Wind turbines for which each home is paying £350 a year in subsidy do not work 24/7 365 days of the year, they only work when the wind blows or the with solar when the sun shines.
Pettigrew says Boris is falling behind on 40 extra GW’s yesterday we needed 10000GW’s to meet demand. Home gas boilers represent 0.09% of global Co2 emissions, China India and Africa are building 2650 new coal fired stations, how does the UK being Net Zero – whatever that disparate generality means – modify change moderate manipulate manage the way in which climate will change?  G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk)
 
Demand 35.09GW, Wind 0.77GW, Turbines needed to meet demand 401,000 or 1002GW’s.
Cost of providing 1,000 GW’s of wind turbine capacity £1.2 trillion repeated every 15/20 years.
Lord Deben has predicted a peak winter load for an all-electric UK at 150GW’s which would be impossible to resource by 2050 or 2100, if ever. And if premised on wind solar and batteries then you would need to calculate the resource on the basis of no wind for at least seven months as happened in 2017.
 
Demand 32.32Gw Wind 1.04GW, Turbines needed 272,800 or 682GW of turbine capacity.
Demand 25.39GW Wind 2.09Gw, Turbines needed 109,178 or 273GW of capacity.
Demand 36.22GW Wind 1.95GW turbines needed 163,800 or 407GW of capacity.
Demand 36.72GW Wind 0.82GW Turbines needed 394,064 or 985GW of capacity.
Demand 36.71GW Wind 0.70GW, turbines needed 461,472 or 1154GW of capacity.
Demand 35.53GW Wind 1.61Gw turbines needed 194,128 or 485GW of capacity.
Demand 35.71GW Wind 0.45Gw turbines needed 698,280 or 1745GW of capacity. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) Demand 44.07GW, wind 3.04GW. Number of 2.5MW turbines needed to meet demand 127,000 or 319GW’s.
Demand 44.68GW’s Wind 3.27GW’s Number of 2.5MW turbines needed to meet demand 120,208 or 300GW’s of turbine capacity.
Demand 44.23GW Wind 2.93GW turbines needed 132,000 or 330GW’s. Demand 46.82GW Wind 3.54Gw number of turbines needed 116,336 or 291GW’s.
Demand 36.90GW’s Wind 4.62GW’s number of turbines needed 70,400 or 176GW’s of capacity. Coal 2.86GW’s.
Demand 39.88GW’s Wind 5.61GW’s turbines needed 61,600 or 154GW’s of capacity, Coal 2.84GW’s. So much for an extra 40GW’s how about the 3300GW’s we need right now? G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk)
 
Demand 40.50GW’s Wind 0.27GW’s. Therefore today – Sunday – the UK would need 1.32 million 2.5MW wind turbines to meet demand or 3300GW’s of supply just to generate 40.50GW’s of electricity. You can get 1GW of reliable supply for £1 billion with coal or methane like 50GW’s for £50 billion. Each turbine costs £3 million therefore that is £3.9 trillion just for the turbines.

Every MW generated by a wind turbine consumes 200 times more raw finite materials than a MW generated by coal or methane. You need 50 acres of land mass for 1MW of wind electricity so you would need 165 million acres of land but the UK has only 66 million acres. G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk)
 
Demand 43.64GW, CCGT 22.07GW’s Nuclear 6.30GW’s, Biomass 2.93GW’s, Wind 5.61GW’s, Coal 1.53GW’s, Solar 30GW’s. Therefore today to meet the demand of 43.64GW’s the UK would need 68,464 2.5MW wind turbines or 171GW’s covering 8.6 million acres. In 2017 the UK experienced 7 consecutive months of windless days. There is no battery that can store electricity for seven months but if it did exist the cost would be beyond £32 trillion. And it isn’t even winter yet?
 
27th November 2020 G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk)
Demand 40.20GW’s CCGT 23.16GW’s (57.62%) Nuclear 5.73GW’s Biomass (Wood Pellets from USA) 3.01GW’s Wind o.44GW’s Coal 2.52GW’s Solar 1.2GW’s. UK would need 803,968 2.5MW wind turbines to meet demand or 2009.92GW’s of capacity.

If solar 40GW’s of solar. At 1MW /50 acres Vattenfall would need 100 million acres of land – UK has 66 million acres – on or off shore to meet demand at a cost of £2.4 trillion. Whereas the UK could buy 50GW’s of coal or methane generation at £1 billion/GW. Lord Deben has not denied an all electric UK would have a peak winter load of 150GW’s 3.33 times our current peak load. Zero Co2 for the UK between £6 and £7 trillion.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
January 7, 2022 5:23 am

Anyone with a brain had to know this was coming. “Smart Metering” is a blander phrase for “Demand Mangement”, which in turn is a blander phrase for “Rationing”.

David Roger Wells
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
January 7, 2022 5:42 am

This is just the latest stage in the development of the hoax to whitewash the reality that no one involved in the hoax even bothered to think the confidence trick all of the way through because they neither have the mentality of the intellect to think further than the end of their nose. Every time they recognise their cockup they just make stuff up to cover up their endemic incompetence. The planet is full of fraudsters who behave like this 24/7 from Ponzi schemes to ripping off peoples bank accounts and courier scams the modus operandi is the same. When the hucksters who phone people up to take their cash they predict disaster scare people and offer what appears to be an easy solution then you cash is gone.

I remained concerned that there is such a huge number of people who fail to recognise how deceitful ordinary folk can be when there is an opportunity to commit fraud steal your cash and deceive into believing most anything to gain control and exploit belief. More worrying is the fact that it appears there is a huge number of people who cannot under any circumstances distinguish the difference between fact and fiction which is why scams like the climate hoax remain in existence. The idea that humanity could exercise control over the scale magnitude and complexity of climate is ludicrous the belief that such control could be exercised by farting about with Co2 beggars belief.

Tom Halla
January 7, 2022 5:31 am

The green blob really wants a society using sedan chairs for the elites.

Timo, not that one
January 7, 2022 5:40 am

After you pay to charge your battery, do they return your money when they steal the power back during the night?

joe
Reply to  Timo, not that one
January 7, 2022 6:01 am

yes, but at a reduced rate. after all, it is used electricity.

TonyG
Reply to  Timo, not that one
January 7, 2022 9:49 am

They’ll probably come up with a “reason” to charge you for something like “using the circuits” when they’re taking power from you.

Doonman
Reply to  TonyG
January 7, 2022 11:45 pm

Readiness to unserve charge.

Sara
January 7, 2022 5:51 am

We can only charge up when the National Grid says we can. – article

So, the reality is that The They want us to use these rolling deathtraps, but they don’t want us to keep them in working order, which means that we can’t really use them…. or something.

Yeah, I’ll stick with the ICE vehicles, and if I have to, I’ll go back to the horse and buggy thing. Cain’t nobody keep me from moving around at free will that way. Besides, horses drop fresh fertilizer on the roadsides, so there’s a benefit in that part, too.

pochas94
Reply to  Sara
January 7, 2022 7:01 am

Well, there’s always hydrogen..

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Sara
January 7, 2022 8:13 am

There is always shank’s mares. And I dribble fresh liquid fertilizer on the roadside.

Sara
Reply to  Doug Huffman
January 7, 2022 11:29 am

You guys haven’t had to walk into a headwind of about 30MPH in a base temperature of about 3F, with a windchill in the subzeroes, have you? It’s really not much fun. Not only do your eyes water, they form icicles on your eyelashes, which melt in the store you’ve just gone into, and sleet covers you from head to toe in front, so that has to melt off, too.

Sometimes, the store takes pity on some of us and calls a taxi for us. 🙂 Just sayin’.

Stay warm.

Reply to  Sara
January 7, 2022 5:04 pm

Sara,
Weather does indeed vary, globally.
Your experiences aren’t mine [for which I’m glad];
Once walked – in still air – half a mile to the local rail station, when it was reputedly -18C [that must be close to 0 F], in South London. Very glad that was a one off.

Take care.

Auto

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Sara
January 8, 2022 3:34 am

I haven’t?

I live at 45ºN 86ºW on an Island in Lake Michigan. At the moment it is an unseasonably warm 23ºF (11ºF chill) and heading sub-zero next week.

My exercise alternates indoor cycling, and a four mile walk around the block when I wear, for instance, double ‘pane’ goggles and full face cover. It is a real inconvenience t have to ‘clear’ my runny nose.

Doonman
Reply to  Doug Huffman
January 7, 2022 11:54 pm

Just get yourself a pair of breeding mules and sell the future offspring to your brother in law at a reduced rate before they’re born.

Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 6:00 am

I see the camel’s nose. What’s next? How about –

All new heat pumps must be wired thru a smart meter and capable of being shut off remotely.

All new kitchen stoves will be electric and must be wired thru a smart meter and capable of being shut off remotely.

All outside security lamps must be wired thru a smart meter and capable of being shut off remotely.

All new clothes dryers will be electric and must be wired thru a smart meter and capable of being shut off remotely.

All stock tank heaters must be wired thru a smart meter and capable of being shut off remotely.

All grain drying equipment must be wired thru a smart meter and capable of being shut off remotely.

Does anyone else see the provision of electricity moving from a community/customer driven resource to one where government controls what you get and when, i.e., a 5 year plan?

Does this sound like Prohibition in the U.S. where black market booze became the norm? Does the government not realize the black market solutions that will be implemented. How about neighbors kicking in for a shared generator and black market fuel?

Quelgeek
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 6:27 am

You sound like someone having an a-ha! moment.

Jules Guidry
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 7:01 am

Shhhh. Keep it to yourself. The government does not need any help in circumventing folks doing what they gotta do to keep moving around.

Doug Huffman(@doughuffman)
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 8:14 am

What’s next after the Kamala’s nose? Why, the hump of course.

menace
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 8:44 am

aye “internet of everything” becomes “government control of everything”

Sara
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 8:58 am

Really, it sounds more like what William of Normandy inflicted on the locals when he took his army to England, and his demands (all forestry off limits for development and/or firewood production, to simplify it) , as hunting in a forest was the RIGHT of the KING, and no others!!!

https://earlyenglishlaws.ac.uk/reference/essays/forest-law/

When you read through that, you will see that there is not a whole lot of difference between what the “King” demanded and what BoJo is trying to do now. When is he going to be kicked out on his backside?

Just so you all over there in Britain know, you have my deepest sympathies, and there is squabbling going on over here about getting US gas and other petroleum fuel users. It won’t do a single bit of good to shut off access to carbon-based fuels, but when you’re large and stupid (and not to bright to begin with), it’s easy to be talked into doing something dimwitted.

Last edited 18 days ago by Sara
Dave Fair
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2022 10:50 am

Leftists believe human nature is mutable and if it is decreed, it will happen.

PCman999
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 9, 2022 2:24 am

Black market booze will come back in style to power any remaining ICE vehicles and possibly the generators you mentioned.

Quelgeek
January 7, 2022 6:07 am

In a similar vein, on the BBC Today programme on October 8th, just after 07:10 they interviewed Dale Vince from EcoTricity. He rather let the cat out the bag about smart meters but the interviewer didn’t understand what he’d just been told. He let it pass completely unremarked.

Vince’s exact phrase, relating to how smart meters would help manage intermittent supply, is they allow suppliers to “…turn down demand…”.

Think about that for a moment. “…turn down demand…”

menace
Reply to  Quelgeek
January 7, 2022 8:54 am

On one hand a Texas winter catastrophe might potentially be averted if you could force all thermostats down to 60F in a crisis rather than just politely asking for cooperation in news releases. On the other hand such absolute control opens the door for corruption.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  menace
January 8, 2022 12:16 pm

ya think? Imagine if the Government could turn off the electricity of everyone who was registered for the “wrong” party, a member of the “wrong” religion, the wrong race, or who protested at their school board meeting against CRT.

China is already setting up a “social credit” system, where the computer can analyze everywhere you go, and everything you do. Right now its mostly the Uyghurs who get sent to the slave labor camps. But imagine a government that can decide your “social credit” score is too low to be allowed to use any electricity !

Quelgeek
January 7, 2022 6:11 am

The only person I know in my village with an electric car is an paediatric intensive-care nurse, who works shifts.

Good luck getting back to work for the night-shift.

ghalfrunt
January 7, 2022 6:29 am

as one reader has received this message from Vodafone:

There is nothing about this from Gov website unless this document is sufficiently misinterpreted to fit a view point:
Electric Vehicle Smart Charging (publishing.service.gov.uk)

DMacKenzie
Reply to  ghalfrunt
January 7, 2022 8:34 am

Wow…page 10 “Phase 2” is so 1984….

bluecat57
January 7, 2022 6:32 am

And that meter installation costs someone (OPM, so technically”free”) what $500 in fully loaded costs?

ghalfrunt
January 7, 2022 6:38 am

currently an electric supply company (Octopus) has a 4 hour period 00:30 to 04:30 for BEV owners. All energy during this period is supplied at LT 1/3 the standard rate. The same company also has an agile tariff that charges based on 0.5 hourly wholesale rate. This can be / is very expensive or actually negative. Smart charging can use either of these tariffs but you still have the opportunity to override the switch and simply charge.

I’m surprised no one here has brought up the radiation from these meters causing covid!!

Shark24
January 7, 2022 6:40 am

No problem. Just buy a honkin big diesel generator and use that to charge your EV “off the grid”.

Andy Pattullo
January 7, 2022 6:45 am

But EV’s will make lovely paperweights.

Jules Guidry
Reply to  Andy Pattullo
January 7, 2022 6:57 am

Fancy chicken coops in the backyard.

Tom.1
January 7, 2022 6:52 am

What is to keep someone from hooking the EV charger to, say, a drier outlet or otherwise circumventing this metering scheme? It might make sense from a load balancing standpoint but putting a tax on it seems problematic.

Jules Guidry
January 7, 2022 6:56 am

LMAO…at the suckers who are buying into this EV junk. Seen a number of EV on the side of the road in my travels. Just shake my head and chuckle. Now this. Further entertainment at the expense of the seriously mentally impaired EV owners.

Hughes Fullydeeoth
January 7, 2022 6:56 am

Easy solution: use a generator to charge the car “off grid”
I know it defeats the purpose, but the only way to win in clown world is to out-clown everybody

DMacKenzie
Reply to  Hughes Fullydeeoth
January 7, 2022 8:38 am

umm, likely roadbed coils will discharge your battery into the grid as you drive to ensure that those who charged the “proper way” get to use your electrons…

michael hart
January 7, 2022 7:05 am

“…plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required”.

I’m pretty sure even a greenie knows how to unplug an electrical connection when it suits them.

Joel O’Bryan(@joelobryan)
Reply to  michael hart
January 7, 2022 10:04 am

The smart meter networked to the internet would rat you out to the bureaucrats charged with enforcing these things. It’s the same mindset as that controlled TV licenses in the UK for decades and drove around in RF sniffer vans outfitted to find unlicensed TVs in the UK.
So Unplugging your EV to deprive the grid of your car’s charge gets you a negative social credit score (SCS) in a Chinese-style state. Your ability to shop at the best state-run stocked stores will be curtailed as a result of a bad SCS. You will be socially shamed as a selfish electricity hoarder in such a state.

Michael Nagy
January 7, 2022 7:14 am

So this happened in the UK? Wait till Elon hears about this.

michel
January 7, 2022 7:20 am

This is revealing the fundamental problems with the UK Net Zero project.

It consists of the following:

  • move electricity generation to solar and wind
  • move vehicles to EVs
  • move home heating to heat pumps
  • move piped gas supply to hydrogen

But these things cannot all be done simultaneously.

We see one reason here, that moving vehicles to EVs will impose too much of a peak load on the grid. However on examination this will also turn out to be true of heat pumps. Peak demand for electricity, if both of these things are done, will occur in a calm period with a blocking high in January or February. These occur just about every winter and typically last 10+ days. Between 6 and 10pm on a weekday with neither wind nor solar generation a huge load will arrive as people get home, plug in their cars, turn on their heatpumps and water heaters, and get ready to make dinner. If nothing changes, the grid will fall over.

Fortunately however the Government seems to have realized this, and will be taking steps to prevent cars from charging.

You can expect the next step to be that smart meters will be required for the heat pumps, and they can be stopped from being used.

The fact is that the UK grid in its present shape cannot support the increased load from the projected EV and heat pumps even in the spring and autumn. Once you convert it to wind and solar, its game over. The first hard winter will get whichever government is in power at the time exiled for a generation. The death rate among the old and poor will be enormous.

This is not all. Its also, at the same time as home heating is converted from gas to heat pumps, to convert the gas supply to hydrogen. This will be vastly expensive because the pipe systems, both in street and indoors, will have to be swapped out, and the appliances changed out. It will not be like the conversion from coal gas to North Sea gas, because of the permeability of piping to hydrogen. In the coal gas replacement case the same piping could be used and the appliances retrofitted. This will not be the case with the projected move to hydrogen.

But it gets better. After everyone has been converted to heat pumps and electric cookers, there isn’t going to be anyone left using gas to buy the hydrogen that the country has so expensively converted its piping to deliver. No-one will buy all those expensive new appliances. They will have already been converted to heat pumps.

And in addition, there is anyway no cost effective source of hydrogen to deliver to all these appliances that no-one is buying or using over the network that has now been converted. Well, not only is there no cost effective source, there is no source at all and no concrete plans to get any.

By the way, to convert to heat pumps also requires all out insulation to a very high standard. But it also requires new radiators, because they will not reach temperatures as high as gas or oil fired ones. And I am reading that this will also mean larger bore piping.

Its completely irrational. Even were it to be done, even were the UK to get to the fabled Net Zero, it would have reduced total global emissions by 450 million tons out of 37 billion. And that is before the rest of the world carries on increasing as it industrializes and grows its economies using fossil fuel, oil, gas, coal, what do they care?

Its a colossal diversion from thinking about and planning to fix the nation’s real problems.

bill Johnston
January 7, 2022 7:25 am

When has micromanagement by government ever worked?

Dusty
January 7, 2022 7:40 am

What did Socialists have before EV’s?

Drivable cars.

Jim Turner
Reply to  Dusty
January 7, 2022 8:44 am

Lenin had a Rolls-Royce, in fact he may have had as many as eleven. Strictly speaking they were not his, they belonged to the people in the guise of the Soviet state. I’m not sure how many peasants got to drive them though.

Jtom
January 7, 2022 7:40 am

Plan A. Keep your ICE vehicles as long as possible.

Plan B. Buy a gas generator that kicks in when there is a load (i.e., car is plugged in), but there is no commercial power flowing. Electronics also include a diode-like circuit that allows power to flow only in one direction (battery cannot be drained).

Plan C. Buy second EV. Always have one plugged into Plan B circuitry, so you always have a car that has a full charge.

When you buy a house, get one with a double or triple garage to hide it all. Yeah, I know. None of this will be cheap. Start saving now.

Last edited 18 days ago by Jtom
michel
Reply to  Jtom
January 7, 2022 7:45 am

It depends how serious they get about implementing it all. But one scenario is, in the country, its back to the fifties of the last century. Have a bike to get by back roads to shopping in the nearest market town. Install solid fuel stoves, if you can an Aga or similar stored heat range. Yes, it requires filling and emptying twice a day, but you will be warm and will have some hot water.

Joel O’Bryan(@joelobryan)
Reply to  michel
January 7, 2022 10:24 am

The Amish with their horse drawn buggies will be laughing their ass off at people trying to get to the store with bikes on snowy or wet roads.

Kevin Stall
January 7, 2022 7:41 am

This will also mean that your own solar panels won’t be allowed to charge your car.

Joel O’Bryan(@joelobryan)
Reply to  Kevin Stall
January 7, 2022 10:29 am

You should do the calculation on how much Solar PV install you’d need to charge a typical EV from 20% to 80% in the 6 hours from 9am to 3pm local time assuming a sunny day an optimal PV panel tilt angle to insolation. It’s an eye popping number I assure you. It’s been done here at WUWT many times over the years. Most people don’t have to property available for the required area even if they had the money for the solar PV panels.

MarkW
Reply to  Kevin Stall
January 7, 2022 11:08 am

The government needs that power more than you do.

Olen
January 7, 2022 7:47 am

What’s next a dog collar to shock if you get too close to car at peak usage!
Essentially you will have no car. They also want kill switches on cars.

Few things are more dangerous than enthusiastic idiots making plans for others.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  Olen
January 7, 2022 10:31 am

Yeah, in the US the latest “covid relief” bill signed by Brandon mandates all new cars are required to have kill switches, supposedly within 5 years. Who gets to control those kill switches? That’s an open question, one only the “paranoid” are asking at the moment.

Joel O’Bryan(@joelobryan)
Reply to  Olen
January 7, 2022 10:35 am

Tesla owners have long understood the networked nature of their vehicle and the remote control that offers. And already there are kill switches on most new cars, including ICE vehicles. You just don’t know it.

https://www.southbendtribune.com/story/news/crime/2016/01/21/cops-use-onstar-to-disable-suspects-engine-and-end-high-speed-chase/117107636/

John the Econ
January 7, 2022 7:53 am

Next up, EV “Animal Farm”.

Kip Hansen(@kiphansen2)
Editor
January 7, 2022 7:56 am

This aspect of the shift to EVs has been ignored from the start. There is not adequate infrastructure to support home-charged EVs — not enough power lines, not enough transformers, not enough amps delivered to home in the power drops, not enough juice on the grid.

While EVs make sense, the shift has to be gradual and must be demand-based. People have to want them, not be forced to have them. With a demand-based shift, users will buy EVs when they see that EVs are cheaper, more convenient, sexier, cooler, or otherwise more desirable. Demands-based shifts come gradually and will naturally depend on costs of upgrading local power grids, installing new power lines pole-to-home, upgrading home power panels and the cost of the electricity itself (which is a local issue).

If governments want to support the shift, they need to pour money into grid improvement, increasing electrical supply (SMR nuclear, probably), bringing down the cost of electrical power, subsidizing efficient home chargers — and a lot more.

Instead of making EV ownership-for-all possible, the current plan seems to be penalizing gasoline car ownership and attempting to destroy gasoline-powered automobile supply.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Kip Hansen
January 7, 2022 9:10 am

“Not enough juice on the grid”

Especially when you start to consider all the other things that will need electrification.

For example, Network Rail has been looking at the efficiencies of various forms of rail traction in the UK and overhead line electrification came out top at 80%, battery traction at 65%, hydrogen and diesel both at 25%. The overhead line electrification would require electrifying 13,000 kilometres of currently unelectrified track which would take decades to deliver. (Note battery traction was deemed suitable for only 800 kilometres of track)

Go to Europe and 46% of its rail infrastructure is unelectrified

Kip Hansen(@kiphansen2)
Editor
Reply to  Dave Andrews
January 7, 2022 9:39 am

Dave ==> I don’t have the chops to do the calculation, but calculate the amount of energy currently used to move automobiles around — number of gallons of gasoline burned times energy produced — and convert to MwH of electricity needed to be added to the grid.

It took 100 years to build the electrical grid we have today….how much time is needed to double it?

Joel O’Bryan(@joelobryan)
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