Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
People keep talking about how as electric cars become cheaper, more people will use them. But what they keep ignoring is that they are totally useless for long trips.
The Climate Spokeswoman for the UK PM Boris Johnson, Allegra Stratton, recently let the cat out of the bag when she revealed why even she doesn’t use an EV (electric vehicle):
“Net-zero is the glide path. What we have to be doing more quickly – the science is clear – we have to be changing our carbon emissions output right now so that we can stop temperature increase by 2030.
She explained that she doesn’t want to stop to charge her car when she visits elderly relatives “200,250 miles away”.
She claimed that she visits family around the UK, including Scotland, north Wales, the Lake District and Gloucester.
Because of this, she said: “They’re all journeys that I think would be at least one quite long stop to charge.”
(Gotta admit, I have to admire the otherworldly idiocy of anyone who seriously claims that we can “stop temperature increase by 2030”. Here’s why that is ungrounded madness … but I digress.)
Now, here in Nowherica, 250 miles is considered an easy morning’s commute … a map of Texas versus Europe shows why.
So I got to thinking … just how long a charging stop would that be to go another 250 miles? Me, I drive a 2016 Ram Ecodiesel pickup truck with about a 500 mile range, although the new ones have about a 1,000 mile range. And I can “recharge” it for another 500 miles in about five minutes at the pump.
Looking for information on this question, I see that the figure in question is called “RPH”, which stands for “Range Per Hour”. This is how many miles of range you get per hour of charging. I find a site called How Long Does It Take To Charge An Electric Car that says:
Range per hour varies depending on how efficient your car is. Small full battery electric cars (e.g. Renault Zoe) are the most efficient and get 30 miles of range per hour charging at 7kW. The biggest full battery electric cars (e.g. Audi e-tron Quattro) are heavier and get ~20 miles of range per hour at 7kW.
YIKES! That’s the charge rate for the standard commercial chargers. I can see why the UK Climate Spokesbabe doesn’t want to drive an EV. If you’re stopping to recharge your Audi e-tron for another 250 miles, instead of the five minutes it takes me to recharge my diesel pickup, it will take you twelve and a half hours to recharge.
But heck, don’t worry. Here’s Edmund King, the head of the UK Automobile Association. He says that drivers should take a break after 200 miles of driving.
“Drivers covering long distances should take regular breaks to maintain safety, so this is the ideal time to charge the car. Range anxiety will continue to decrease with more chargers and improved range on new models.”
Well, that makes perfect sense. Just stop for a quick ten-hour lunch, and you’re ready for your next 200 miles. And Elon Musk, winner of the Olympic Gold Medal For Getting The Most US Taxpayer Subsidies, makes much the same point regarding the new “long-range” Tesla Model S:
Musk said that he doesn’t see a need for an electric vehicle with a range of more than 400 miles:
“What we are seeing is that once you have a range above 400 miles, more range doesn’t really matter. There are essentially zero trips above 400 miles where the driver doesn’t need to stop for restroom, food, coffee, etc. anyway.”
The comment was criticized for not accounting for the fact that a 400-mile range is closer to 250-300 miles in colder climates and depending on the conditions.
Heck, yes, I often need to stop for ten hours for restroom, food, and coffee …
Call me crazy, but with the Tesla Model S going for a cool $74,490 including ten-hour restroom breaks, I reckon I’m gonna stick with my Ram Ecodiesel.
w.
… h/t to the irrepressible James Delingpole for a couple of quotes …
[UPDATE] Several commenters have pointed out that there are faster chargers out there, that can charge at 100 or even 200 miles or range per hour. This would cut the charge time in the middle of a 600-mile trip down to thre or even one and a half hours … in theory, of course. In practice, the numbers somehow never seem to match up to theory.
But heck, yes, I often need to stop for a couple hours for restroom, food, and coffee …
They also forget to consider the case where there aren’t any free charging points. Most motorway service stations I’ve visited have a handful of charging stations. Imagine that when you pull in for your 200 mile charge, you take your ticket from the charging receptionist or whatever (probably an automatic machine anyway), you’re number 105 and they’re only calling for numbers 40 to 45? Do you (risk) driving to the next station which is at a Starbucks hoping for more luck? Maybe you can use your handy app to tell you the nearest available charging point is. But what if it’s busy when you get their?
The practicalities of electric car ownership are outlined pretty well here….
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-i-regret-buying-an-electric-car
Somewhere in the suburb of Melbourne Victoria in Australia, in Port Melbourne, managers of a high rise building containing commercial and residential owners and tenants inquired about installing EV charge points in the underground carpark, the electrician checked it out and made an inquiry to the electricity supplier about installation.
The answer was no based on the local area grid not being suitable to handle the extra demand without major upgrading, like new sub-stations etc.
I wonder what the answer would be if all of the buildings in Melbourne CBD and surrounding districts applied for EV charge points, 415v 3-phase for example?
Don’t forget the danger of having an EV catch fire while charging. Not fun in an underground parking garage.
As a UK plug-in hybrid owner I love that I can easily get over 100mpg and have no range anxiety for long trips. We need this technology at least until there is a much much better charging network. I love that my local town journeys are just pennies and I don’t run tail-pipe. I hate being behind someone else’s exhaust in traffic and I can be part of the solution to that.
Most trips in the UK are under 30 miles.
People on the UK motorway network will usually stop for food or coffee or bathroom break – long enough to charge an EV.
Maybe the US is different, but there isn’t a range issue in the UK.
Gotta love Griff … I quote the UK Climate Spokesbabe for the PM saying there IS a range issue in the UK.
So of course griff, your basic internet popup coward who doesn’t have the courage to sign his own name, says there ISN’T a range issue in the UK.
Guess which one I’m gonna listen to …
w.
I don’t know many people who need an hour for a potty break.
yeah range vs chargetime
its 450km approx to either large city near me a 5hr drive
i do stop to eat, loo, let dogs out for about 20mins
dont think stopping halfway for 10hrs to charge would make anything enjoyable
and then theres no ecar that will FIT 5 very large dogs on the market in aus either
and to this day Ive seen ONE ecar charger setup anywhere on that road
I suppose all those living near roads and possibly growing food bathed in lead should just have moved to the countryside?
got that wrong this was a reply to Dennis August 8, 2021 4:59 am
Lead was removed from gasoline 40 or 50 years ago.
The levels of lead you would find on a country road couldn’t be measured by the most sensitive instruments available at the time.
Please consider leftist environmental agenda for transport vehicles since 1970s;
* Unleaded petrol at a cost of many billions of dollars for oil refineries and internal combustion engine modifications.
* Remove sulphur from diesel costs as above
And when completed a new demand that ICEV be replaced by EV, tried and rejected around 1900 because of the high prices and inconvenience of range and recharging, etc.
Dennis, do you really think the conversion to unleaded gasoline and low sulphur diesel was not worth it? Back in those days we had thick smog in the city centers.
The air today is much better and healthier; much of it because of low sulphur diesel an unleaded gasoline with catalytic cleaning.
I have some power tools that use lithium batteries, and the tools run at full power right up until they run out of juice, and then they just stop completely.
So what happens to your Tesla if you are driving down the highway at a high rate of speed, and then the battery quits on you? Do you have steering to get the car off the highway and onto the shoulder after the battery quits? I imagine this would be a rare occurance, but what would happen if it did occur?
They montor the power in and the power out and they then give warnings at around 5% capacity and when “empty” will switch to turtle mode for perhaps a couple of km
That’s good. At least you wouldn’t be sitting in the middle of the highway with a depleted Tesla.
Of course, as I said, this would be a rare occurrence since the car would give you plenty of warning in advance, and apparently Musk has planned for this problem already. I wasn’t doubting that, I just didn’t know the particulars.
Now come along, get with the program folks.
I have a handy assist for these “extended” journeys we sometimes make.
It is called a tow hitch, though I am working on a roof mounted option for those not able to reverse a small trailer.
Anyway, this is the whole option I am offering. You get a tow hitch fitted then buy a small diesel gen set with trailer, and a lead from said trailer to electric vehicle.
When you have completed say 150 miles you press the remote gen set start up switch and it pumps power into the depleted battery as you drive along. By the time you have completed 400 miles your battery is fully charged up ready for a refuel of your gen set trailer rig, about ten gals of diesel should do it.
What could be simpler. I am thinking of pitching it around the £990 price range.
What do you think?
First of all I think you can’t charge it while driving it; so you’ll need to sit by the side of the road for hours waiting for the charge to be completed, or for the generator fuel to run out.
Typically, a WUWT comment thread will run out of gas at around 100 comments or so. This one is now at 360 and is still going strong. Just saying.
So if I travel from Melbourne to Canberra in my EV car, I will drive through to Holbrook. That’s about three hours driving ….say, 7am to 10am. Then wait for ten hours to recharge. Not much happening in Holbrook. The pub for lunch and dinner while I wait for the recharge to happen. Now it’s 8pm, it’s dark, and the semi trailers are roaring up the highway. Good, then I’ll drive another two hundred miles to say Jugiong and get in about 11pm. I’ll be sleeping in my car while I recharge (is that safe?) because nothing will be open. Then by 9am the car will be charged and I can continue on to Canberra. About 27 hours for the journey. In my present car it would take me about 7-8 hours with a couple of short stops.
Funniest article I’ll read today. Sounds like EV’s are the most expensive paper weights ever made.
Their justification for the electric car is weak and against human nature.
People need a vehicle that is ready to go at any time not hours later. And it is not up to investors and enthusiasts politicians to tell us what we need. Although some think that is their job.
I’m disappointed that more effort hasn’t been put into hybrids.
To me they are the best solution to reducing vehicular CO2 emissions and still managing long distances. I like my Ford Escape. I can do most of my in-town driving on battery and my trip in and out interstate/hwy recharges me for the next trip.
Philip, that is far too sensible an option. The Greens won’t allow any of that fossil fuel charging as you go nonsense, hybrids indeed!
Yup! Totally useless for long trips, totally useless when you have power outages, and downright dangerous to have parked in your garage, especially if it is attached to your home.
And, of course, they want to shove “battery electric vehicles” down people’s throats at exactly the same time they are working overtime to make the electric grid unstable and unreliable, and the price of electricity extremely high.
But hey, what’s not to like?
As I’ve said before, “electric cars” will only be a “thing” when they can draw power from the roads and paths they operate on. Don’t hold your breath.
Willis,
I’m pretty impressed by your map, and its overlay of Texas.
But some facts might be pertinent.
England is about the size of Louisiana, and contains about 1/5th of the US population.
Worse still the bulk population is concentrated in just three regions. The western M62, The Midlands and The SE. Corona paradise.
For American readers, nobody in England is more than 60 miles from the Sea.
I simply, as with Australia, can’t imagine journies, a couple of thousand miles, to get from one place to another?
In my defence, I once made it from the Scottish Highlands back to the southern border of West Yorkshire in 3 hours. (about an average of 130 mph for the math challenged)
Nothing seems to bring out the heat at WUWT like electric car discussions. Toss in “guest post by Willis Eschenbach” and the comments go on for days.
EVs have come a long way since the old Detroit Electric and I firmly believe they are a practical choice for some people. I won’t have one but my brother owns two and they are indeed a blast to drive. Owners do seem to find ways to live with the range and charging limitations, just as owners of early automobiles put up with their flaws.
But several common misconceptions do deserve corrections:
Buy an EV if you want to and we can get along just fine. Just don’t coerce everyone else into buying one on the false claim it will have any impact on global CO2 emissions.
Uh .. that 400 mi range? How many people will drive their ev anywhere near that maximum? Esp. when far from home … long distance to next charger … in unknown area. And consider how many factors can combine to drain your battery and range faster … hills .. traffic speed car accessories … wind … etc etc. the battery drain is never a straight line function. Nobody in their right mind would push their ev to a near full drain. Because a total discharge of the battery does what to your ev? Oh yeah … it destroys the car.
when I run out of gas? I call AAA … I don’t have to junk my car’s battery array
My 2017 Honda accord will get 800km highway driving in minus 40C winter driving and plus 40c summer driving. Take minutes to refuel. I often go from Regina to Saskatoon and back in a day for meetin a 3 hour meeting – round trip 550km. No silly EV for me.
Fun fact: If you calculate the hydrocarbon combustion released energy corresponding to the annual global emission of CO2, it corresponds to a forcing of 0.1-0.2 watts / m^2. Not too far short of the lowest CO2 sensitivity estimates.
https://ptolemy2.wordpress.com/2021/08/06/could-fossil-fuel-warming-be-just-combustion-heat-not-radiative-whatnot/
Fun fact: your fun fact is wrong by an order of magnitude.
From Our World In Data, I find global fossil fuel consumption to be 135,807E+12 watthours per year.
Dividing that by 8,765 hours per year to get back to watts, then dividing that by earth’s surface area of 5.11E+14 square metres gives us 0.03 W/m2 … trivially small.
It does have an effect, albeit tiny, in extremely crowded countries and cities. But globally, it’s lost in the noise.
w.
Yes I found an error in my maths which when corrected gave me also 0.03 W/m2.
Here is an article that points out that in the UK, range will be severely curtailed, because the National Grid will not be able to cope. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9872451/RICHARD-NORTH-problem-electricity-come-electric-cars.html
I am visualising a Built Back Better future where, in a manner similar to the horse and carriage era, travelers would change EVs every 100miles at EV stations.
You wouldn’t actually own the EV, you would just lease them for the journey and swap to a new one every 300km or so. Coaching Stations would have stables/garages filled with fresh EVs ready to go and travelers would actually be able to keep moving after their 10 minute break to bathroom and snack.
Of course some people might be asking what you do if you final destination ISN’T actually within walking distance of the Coaching Station? Simple. You lease something with an IC engine when you drop off the EV for the remaining 100 or so kilometres!
It would be fine. Under Built Back Better most great unwashed will not be issued internal travel passports anyway, and the truly important people would all travel to Martha’s Vineyard by private jet. Hence each Coaching Station would only need about 20 EVs maximum at any one time.
New Green.
Perfection!
What could possibly go wrong?
If we had abundant electricity from nuclear fusion, and if batteries didn’t require all of the raw materials from China, and …, it would be Nirvana except for air travel. We all should be staying closer to home in our self-contained little communities anywho.
And that’s assuming you don’t have to wait for the guy at the “pump” ahead of you to finish his recharge before you can start.
Right now, it’s not a big deal, very few people drive electric cars so when you find a charging station, it’s usually free.
That math changes when they start forcing the majority of people into them. All the sudden everyone needs to charge their cars. If it takes each one of them 1.5 to 2 hours to charge up and you’re third in line…you’re talking about a nice, refreshing 8 hour lunch and bathroom break before continuing your journey. You may as well just consider a single charge the range you’re going to get per day and get hotel rooms at every stop.
Right now I can make the trip to my childhood home (where most of my relatives still live) in about 12 hours. It’s 700 miles. When they finally outlaw gas cars and force me into an electric, it looks like that same trip is going to take over 3 days.
i can’t wait
Sailorcurt, see my comment from two days ago regarding how you will go about visiting Auntie Em in a Green New Deal America.
I’ve taken an Amtrak train several times on long trips from the US Northwest to the upper Midwest to visit relatives living there.
These trips took about thirty hours, but I was completely refreshed when I got there. Saw a lot of scenery along the way too.
On one of these trips, the train was delayed in a town in northern Montana because robbers were holding hostages in a bank directly across from the train station.
The train stopped a quarter of a mile or so past the station near a grocery store parking lot and the passengers had to get on or off there.
It looks to me that most of the arguments on how an EV might be made to work are predicated on some necessity to replace internal combustion engines. Not so much on how EV performance has any more utility than the ICE. Range, load, versatility, convenience all go the other way. So the path to EV is based primarily on driving up the cost of ICE through mandates, penalties, supply interference, … while artificially lowering the cost of EV using those same mechanisms. That and massive, comprehensive and misleading PR.
Attaboy, Coach. You nailed it. Check out the apologias for electric cars, and you can spot the lies in mere seconds. EVs cost more? Not to worry. They cost less to operate, so you’ll get our money back. (after ten years, and the battery capacity has degraded, but never mind.) Greater torque? So what, unless you’re a drag racer. Falling prices? When? How did Teslas $35,000 sedan program work out?