Bright Green Impossibilities

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

After reading some information at Friends of Science, I got to thinking about how impossible it will be for us to do what so many people are demanding that we do. This is to go to zero CO2 emissions by 2050 by getting off of fossil fuels.

So let’s take a look at the size of the problem. People generally have little idea just how much energy we get from fossil fuels. Figure 1 shows the global annual total and fossil energy consumption from 1880 to 2019, and extensions of both trends to the year 2050. I note that my rough estimate of 2050 total annual energy consumption (241 petawatt-hrs/year) is quite close to the World Energy Council’s business-as-usual 2050 estimate of 244 PWhr/yr.

Figure 1. Primary energy consumption, 1880-2019 and extrapolation to 2050. A “petawatt-hour” is 1015 watt-hours

So if we are going to zero emissions by 2050, we will need to replace about 193 petawatt-hours (1015 watt-hours) of fossil fuel energy per year. Since there are 8,766 hours in a year, we need to build and install about 193 PWhrs/year divided by 8766 hrs/year ≈ 22 terawatts (TW, or 1012 watts) of energy generating capacity. (In passing, for all of these unit conversions let me recommend the marvelous website called “Unit Juggler“.)

Starting from today, January 25, 2021, there are 10,568 days until January 1, 2050. So we need to install, test, commission, and add to the grid about 22 TW / 10568 days ≈ 2.1 gigawatts/day (GW/day, or 109 watts/day) of generating capacity each and every day from now until 2050.

We can do that in a couple of ways. We could go all nuclear. In that case, we’d need to build, commission, and bring on-line a brand-new 2.1 GW nuclear power plant every single day from now until 2050. Easy, right? …

Don’t like nukes? Well, we could use wind power. Now, the wind doesn’t blow all the time. Typical wind “capacity factor”, the percentage of actual energy generated compared to the nameplate capacity, is about 35%. So we’d have to build, install, commission and bring online just under 3,000 medium-sized (2 megawatt, MW = 106 watts) wind turbines every single day from now until 2050. No problemo, right? …

Don’t like wind? Well, we could use solar. Per the NREL, actual delivery from grid-scale solar panel installations on a 24/7/365 basis is on the order of 8.3 watts per square metre depending on location. So we’d have to cover ≈ 100 square miles (250 square kilometres) with solar panels, wire them up, test them, and connect them to the grid every single day from now until 2050. Child’s play, right? …

Of course, if we go with wind or solar, they are highly intermittent sources. So we’d still need somewhere between 50% – 90% of the total generating capacity in nuclear, for the all-too-frequent times when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing.

Finally, an update. A well-informed commenter below says:

I think you missed something, Willis

That 22 TW is average power. But generating plants, transmission facilities, transformers, circuit interrupters, and all that stuff, must be sized for the PEAK demand.

Most distribution systems in the US have a peak to average (PtA) ratio of around 1.6 to 1.7. Except for the New England ISO which is running around 1.8. Some systems in Australia have an annual PtA ratio of around 2.3. I expect Arizona would run that high taken in isolation, which, of course, it never is.

Take 1.8 as an estimated overall PtA ratio, you need to meet a peak demand of 22 * 1.7 terawatts or 37.4 TW.

But no power system can survive with generation equal to demand. So add 15% for reserves for when parts of the system are down because of maintenance, failures, or the like. The result is, you need peak generation of 43 TW. So roughly double all of your numbers as to what needs to be built.

And guess what? He’s right. We can’t just provide for average demand. We have to provide enough power for the hottest days in the summer, and for the coldest days in the winter. So we need double the numbers I gave above.

To summarize: to get the world to zero emissions by 2050, our options are to build, commission, and bring on-line either:

Two 2.1 gigawatt (GW, 109 watts) nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, OR

6000 two-megawatt (MW, 106 watts) wind turbines each and every day until 2050 plus a 3 GW nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, assuming there’s not one turbine failure for any reason, OR

200 square miles (500 square kilometres) of solar panels each and every day until 2050 plus a 3 GW nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, assuming not one of the panels fails or is destroyed by hail or wind.

I sincerely hope that everyone can see that any of those alternatives are not just impossible. They are pie-in-the-sky, flying unicorns, bull-goose looney impossible.

Finally, the US consumes about one-sixth of the total global fossil energy. So for the US to get to zero fossil fuel by 2050, just divide all the above figures by six … and they are still flying unicorn, bull-goose looney impossible. 

Math. Don’t leave home without it.

My very best wishes to everyone, stay safe in these parlous times,

w.

PS—As always, to avoid misunderstandings I request that when you comment, you quote the exact words that you are discussing so we can all be clear about who and what you are referring to.

Hard Copies: Someone said they couldn’t get this to print from WUWT. So I selected the whole document from the title to the end and copied it. I pasted it into Microsoft Word. Then I cleaned up the formatting and saved it to my Dropbox, where you can access it here.

I also saved it as a PDF file for those who don’t have Word. It’s here. However, because it’s a PDF, the links to other documents are not active.

Technical Note: These figures are conservative because they do not include the energy required to mine, refine, and transport the necessary materials, plus provide the energy needed to actually build the reactors, wind turbines, or solar panels. This is relatively small per GW of generation for nuclear reactors but is much larger for wind and solar.

They also don’t include the fact that wind turbines have about a 20-year lifespan, so after 20 years we’ll have to double the turbine construction per day. And with solar the lifespan is about 25 years, so for the last five years, we’ll have to double the solar construction per day. And then we will have to decommission and dispose of millions of wind turbines and hundreds of thousands of square miles of solar panels …

The figures also don’t include the fact that if we go to an all-electric economy we will have to completely revamp, extend, and upgrade our existing electrical grid, including all associated equipment like transformers, power lines, circuit interrupters, and switching stations. This will require a huge investment of time, money, and energy. And this extends into the homes, as every home like mine that’s heated by gas and uses gas for water heating and cooking will need to greatly increase the electrical service to the house and install an electric furnace, stove, and water heater.

So in terms of energy, these are still conservative figures.

They also don’t include the cost. The nuclear plants alone will cost on the order of US$340 trillion at current prices. And wind or solar plus 75% nuclear will be on the order of US550 trillion, plus decommissioning and disposal costs for wind turbines and solar panels.

Finally, the cost of converting all the individual homes, businesses, and buildings around the world that use gas for heating, cooking, and water heating will be enormous. Who will pay for that?

And this doesn’t touch the cost of the land for siting the windmills and the solar panels, which will be stupendous. Here’s some information from California regarding how hard it is to find suitable land for solar power.

Land

… Another issue is the fact that such solar ‘farms’ require huge tracts of land. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has been tasked with finding 24 tracts of public land of three square miles each with good solar exposure, favorable slopes, road and transmission line availability. Additionally, the land set aside for utility-scale solar farms must not disturb native wildlife or endangered species such as the desert tortoise, the desert bighorn sheep, and others. The wildlife issue has proved to be a contentious one. Projects in California have been halted due to the threat caused to endangered species resulting in a backlog of 158 commercial projects with which the BLM is currently contending.

Note that the BLM is having trouble finding a mere 75 square miles of land for solar power generation that doesn’t have too much impact on the environment, and we’re talking about building 200 square miles of new solar power per day …

So it is even more impossible … speaking of which, is it possible to be more impossible?

Because if it is possible … this is it.

4.8 151 votes
Article Rating
426 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Tom Halla
January 27, 2021 10:07 am

Greenpeace will insist that combined cycle power plants running off unicorn farts will save us.

January 27, 2021 10:12 am

According to Cambridge University Emeritus Professor of Technology Michael Kelly, replacing all the United Kingdom’s 32 million light duty vehicles with next-generation EVs would require more than half the world’s annual production of copper; twice its annual cobalt; three quarters of its yearly lithium carbonate output; and nearly its entire annual production of neodymium. [i] 

When you consider that today, there are 1.2 billion vehicles on the world’s roads with projections of 2 billion by 2035, one can easily see that the world may not have enough minerals and metals to support the EV growth projections. [ii]

[i] Kelly, Michael, Until we get a proper roadmap, Net Zero is a goal without a plan, June 8, 2020, https://capx.co/until-we-get-a-proper-roadmap-net-zero-is-a-goal-without-a-plan/

[ii] Green Car Reports, https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093560_1-2-billion-vehicles-on-worlds-roads-now-2-billion-by-2035-report

Hivemind
Reply to  Ronald Stein
January 27, 2021 1:41 pm

Without a plan, it’s no goal, it’s just a wish.

Patrick B
Reply to  Hivemind
January 27, 2021 5:03 pm

No, not a wish; they know it’s impossible. It’s an excuse for imposing more controls on how you live your life and paying public funds to themselves and their allies.

Reply to  Hivemind
January 29, 2021 5:44 pm

A fantasy.

Jan de Jong
Reply to  Ronald Stein
January 27, 2021 2:56 pm

All in power know or suspect that a plan is not possible. Indeed, it is not. But with OPM we can have a nice bonfire in these endtimes.

Toto
Reply to  Jan de Jong
January 27, 2021 4:30 pm

Call this plan Plan A. When (if) they realize it is impossible to provide the needed energy supply, they will go to Plan B, which is to cut the energy demand. No cars, trucks, airplanes, heating, industry, electricity, and keep cutting things. Until (if) they realize that that is impossible without revolution, then they will go to Plan C. Cut the number of people living. They will start by putting “deniers” in reeducation camps, they will end up putting non-party members in the gulags. I would not put a Final Solution past them. After all, we have seen it all before when an ideology rules.

Or they could just make a big mess of it and end up in a big bad war. The four horsemen of the apocalypse: Plague, War, Famine, Death.

The Searchers
Reply to  Toto
January 27, 2021 10:08 pm

There may not be enough resources for a World War II type total war, more likely continuous conflict between client states of major antagonists, perhaps over markets and resources.

Vanessa
Reply to  Toto
January 29, 2021 6:12 am

I fear this may be closer to the truth than any of us would like ! ?

Front toward enemy
Reply to  Toto
January 31, 2021 12:43 pm

Our develop a vaccine for themselves that makes them immune & will be denied to the citizens. Then they will turn loose the deadly virus that has a 80-90% kill rate on the population.

Mark Loveless
Reply to  Toto
January 31, 2021 2:08 pm

This may seem dystopian in its outlook, but think about it.
Supply and demand. If I want to reduce the supply I just eliminate the demand.

God help us, but I don’t trust the Marxists in the US or EU.
Thank God we have the 2nd amendment in the US.

Front toward enemy
Reply to  Jan de Jong
January 31, 2021 12:44 pm

Bon fires will be banned.

RicDre
Reply to  Ronald Stein
January 27, 2021 5:41 pm

I am reminded of this line from Jeff Wayne’s musical version of War of the Worlds:
“Never before in the history of the world had such a mass of human beings moved and suffered together. This was no disciplined march – it was a stampede – without order and without a goal … It was the beginning of the rout of civilization, of the massacre of mankind.”

WXcycles
Reply to  Ronald Stein
January 29, 2021 5:10 pm

Sentiment beats planning, practicality and economic viability any day.

Given a choice, many people prefer to read about celebrities.

And there’s no known cure.

dave
January 27, 2021 10:17 am

Put all the solar and wind sites in New Mexico, since the state’s ‘shocked’ by Biden’s attack on oil and gas. Cover the whole state with solar collectors and wind turbines, making sure to stuff as many as possible in Taos and Santa Fe, since those places seem to heavily favor green technology. I’m sure all the folks in those towns would have no problem with this, since ‘we’re all in this together,’ ‘we all have to do our part to save the planet,’ etc.

Brian Bellefeuille
Reply to  dave
January 27, 2021 10:31 am

One small hurdle to overcome though. You would run out of space for the solar panels in 419 or so days.(121,690/290).

Robert Ernest
Reply to  Brian Bellefeuille
January 28, 2021 4:47 am

Stack them on top of each other 😂😂😂👍🤦🏻‍♂️

WXcycles
Reply to  Robert Ernest
January 29, 2021 5:14 pm

You Sir have an uncommon level of innovative talent.

Pauleta
Reply to  dave
January 27, 2021 1:00 pm

I would do all that, the only thing I’d change is to do it with an abundance of caution.

markl
January 27, 2021 10:18 am

Logic will not be tolerated.

Bill Powers
Reply to  markl
January 27, 2021 11:46 am

Emotion rules.

Reply to  markl
January 27, 2021 9:02 pm

You are correct Willis – see the bolded paragraphs below.
Regards,
Allan
 
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/22/earth-day-should-celebrate-engines-and-electricity/#comment-2335996

Cheap, abundant, reliable energy is the lifeblood of society – it IS that simple.
 
Most politicians are too uneducated to even opine on energy, let alone set energy policy.
 
Witness the energy idiocy of recent politicians in Western Europe, Britain, Canada, the USA, and Australia. These imbeciles have squandered tens of trillions of dollars of scarce global resources on costly, intermittent green energy schemes that are not green and produce little useful (dispatchable) energy, all to save use from imaginary catastrophic global warming – all in a (probably) cooling world.
 
Fully 85% of global primary energy is still generated from fossil fuels – oil, natural gas and coal. The remainder is largely generated from nuclear and hydro. Hardly any useful energy is generated from green sources, despite tens of trillions in wasted subsidies – enough money to buy too many corrupt politicians, civil servants and academics.

Anti fossil fuels, anti pipelines, anti fracking, anti oilsands, pro green energy, etc. etc. – these scams are all promoted by the same people, all deliberately harming our economies while wrapping themselves in the cloak of phony environmentalism.

These people are not pro-environment – many of their programs such as clear-cutting of tropical rainforests to grow biofuels, draining the Ogallala aquifer to grow corn for fuel ethanol, clear-cutting eastern US forests to provide wood pellets for British power plants, erecting huge wind power towers to slice up birds and bats, etc are ALL anti-environmental.

Their successful efforts to delay and ban fracking of petroleum-rich shales have caused great harm in Britain, continental Europe , and have hampered growth in Canada and the USA. Their successful efforts to shut-in the oilsands through anti-pipeline lies have cost Canada tens of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of jobs.

By driving up the cost of energy and causing instability in electrical grids they have increased winter mortality and cost lives. Even greater loss of life has been caused in developing countries, where the installation of reliable fossil-fueled energy has been displaced by insistence on intermittent, near-worthless wind and solar power schemes.

Perhaps the greatest cost and loss-of-life has been due to the gross misallocation of global resources, where obvious first priorities such as clean water and sanitation systems, the fight against malaria, and the fight against world hunger have been displaced due to excessive spending on green energy follies.

These are crimes against humanity – they should be prosecuted and the scoundrels and imbeciles who promoted this nonsense should go to jail.

bogey
Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 31, 2021 2:43 pm

Yes, and what is worst about that is that we tolerate terrible inhumanities like child porn, human trafficking etc. The gullible do-gooders are misled. They have their priorities backwards.

Editor
January 27, 2021 10:26 am

The “easy” answer is to start drilling CO2 injection wells in the Gulf of Mexico and drill them at the same historical rate we drilled oil & gas wells. By 2050, we’ll have injected 60 years worth of current Co2 emissions from electricity generation.

Pages from GCCCPub2019-7-2.png
Rory Forbes
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 10:41 am

An even easier solution and we already have the means to accomplish it … stop pretending that CO2 is doing what they claim it is. End the “climate change” monologue. Start directing our resources towards real problem.

Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 10:50 am

That option expired on January 20, 2021.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 11:03 am

Well, thanks for that. Now I’m even more depressed today. I guess we’re doomed, then.

Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 11:11 am

We would have been doomed if the Democrats won a couple of more Senate seats… We might just be royally fracked for the next 2-4 years.

Steve Case
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 12:30 pm

It’s in the bag. Now that they know they can get away with stuffing the ballot box (Nov 3rd & Jan 5th) elections will be rigged from here on out.
comment image

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Steve Case
January 27, 2021 12:46 pm

It was so obvious and blatant (regardless how much the media pretend otherwise) I doubt they’ll ever be allowed to get that far again, unless they plan to station the National Guard at every polling place.

Duker
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 1:48 pm

Not true at all. None of the 60 court cases were able to prove a shred of fraud. The US decentralised election system means that 1000s of counties would have been ‘in on the fix’ which didnt happen. Indeed in many places Trumps vote increased, often in places that were ‘Democratic counties’ like Philadelphia.
Cant even produce one county in one state that has court level proof of fraud, Guiliani in his one appearance in court even pulled back from alleging Fraud when asking the court to invalidate that states election.
media doesnt pretend the courts kicked out the applications when its the Trump media whos pretending it was stolen…he also claimed he won the 2016 total vote count and appointed a blue chip commission to prove it. Never proved anything as there was no there there.

MarkW
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 2:05 pm

None of the 60 court cases reached the point where evidence was presented, as you well know.
You don’t need to corrupt every precinct, just enough to make sure that the state totals match what you need them to be.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 2:21 pm

Oh, dear gawd, what a buffoon. Of course Trump’s votes increased, (to be expected having increased his vote share by 10 million). That happened throughout the US. The courts didn’t even attempt to try the cases. The cases were rejected summarily on the basis of jurisdiction (legalese for cowardly cop-out). There is absolutely no question of massive fraud. The evidence is overwhelming … in the thousands of pages, hundreds of direct witnesses and video of fraud being committed, ballots being harvested, observers being rejected and on and on. It is statistically impossible for Biden to have won the election, considering the reality of Trump’s successes.

The courts were intimidated by the Democrat threats (Pelosi and Kamala) to riot and pillage by their military branch (BLM and Antifa). You need to stop posting until you learn how trials are conducted and how evidence is required. Stop watching the MSM then repeating their disinformation.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 2:38 pm

Thanks for the wrist slap … it’s just too easy to stray when an opportunity presents itself.

superdog683
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 2, 2021 11:06 am

the election (selection) are 100% connected.

left wing marxist stole the election so they can proceed with destroying the USA.
you can argue 97 different ways, but gorgia has video and 87 witness, statistically impossible results and no independant committe has been allowed to handle or examine any ballots, plus the fbi has not even interviewed any of the fraud employees.

eck
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 7:04 pm

Amen

superdog683
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 2, 2021 11:32 am

the election fraud
and the environmental fraud are one and the same.
find me a Marxist environmentalist that does not believe socialism govt induced force is necessary to save the planet and left wing politics is necessary by any means possible, even cheating, killing, burning and rioting 365 days a year,

dont you know burning buildings is good for the environment

it is a shame because we can move forward save energy and increase production.
one iron seeding cheap way to reduce co2
two. small nukes like France work well
three. insulation for all old buildings makes sense
four heat nacl solar like Australia make sense then use extra energy during non peak to make hydrogen, use hydrogen as the battery then run generator when no sun, any additional hydrogen get sold to fuel cell uses.
five. make all cargo container ships nuclear and stop trading with china saves hundred billion gallon of oil.
six use oil pipe line 100% oil tanker train cars cause 10 catastrophic wrecks and fires a year.
six. only use what makes sense in the different geographic areas, ie solar Nevada, nuclear in upper mid west,
seven. let the engineers at private companies make the decisions for what, where, and how not a bunch of political hack environmentalist
this would give actual results in fifty years.
but environmentalist and politicians do not want to fix anything!!!!!
they want to manage a totally useless program so that they can appoint and graft hundreds of thousands of jobs to fellow corrupt friends and relatives so that they will all have over paid jobs for the next 100 years..
oh and number 8. fix the election process so the USA does not continue the path of a banana republic.

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 3:18 pm

They never “proved” Jimmy Hoffa was murdered either. You think maybe he’s still walking around somewhere Duker? Just because the proof hasn’t been uncovered doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

harry
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 6:20 pm

The court cases weren’t very “scientific” and many ruled on rather strange criteria for evidence.
Let’s start with specific examples:
In one case A judge ruled as hearsay a person saying that particular instructions were given to staff regarding accepting late ballots, the judge wanted hard evidence and the press all laughed at the evidence without asking what possible evidence could a person supply when they hear what would be an illegal command being given? It’s evidence, it will need corroboration, but it can’t be dismissed out of hand as it was.

In another case the judge happily accepted the statements from a Harvard professor (I’m getting rather nervous about academic standards in the US) that the incidence of voter fraud is tiny – because he divided the total number of people convicted for voter fraud by the total number of votes cast in all elections over the period of the time of those fraud cases. Apparently this sort of analysis was compelling. No analysis of the efforts to detect fraud, no investigation of electoral rolls, mail-in ID sleeves, just divide convicted by total votes and bingo. I guess you can therefore conclude that the amount of uncertified domestic electrical work is total number of people convicted for uncertified work divided by the total number of electrical devices sold in the US over a period … nope …

Both parties try to take advantage of the electoral process in the US, pretty much every part of the election is open to abuse.
There have been no statistical surveys of the electoral rolls (in 2017 an attempt to audit the rolls was made by a Trump appointed election integrity panel, zero states complied). I expect there are a large number of invalid registered voters (non-citizens, undischarged felons and people who no longer reside in that electoral area (important for congressional counts)).

Similarly no validation was done on signature verification which would be very important in a high volume mail-in election – particularly when ballots are mailed to entire electorates rather than requested. The software “verification” base explained this way by one of the suppliers, they have a setting from 0 to 100, 0 meaning accept everything, 100 meaning use the maximum scrutiny (not the same as exact match), they set it to 60 because any higher rejected too many. Noone knows what the false positive/negative percentages are at this setting, yet it’s the only protection available against mass ballot harvesting in the last election.

Observers were kept too far away to actually observe, as evidenced in many videos of counting rooms where they were restricted to the front of rooms many metres away from the handling of ballots.

One case had a judge dismiss because “the state laws don’t require ballot boxes to be locked when transported” which may be true in a legal sense but pretty much invalidates any claims that the process has integrity. Remember – trust plays no role in free and fair elections – the system needs to be observably safe and those observers need to be independent of the process. The statements of election officials have zero evidentiary validity – just as they would have in Zimbabwe and NKorea, the process is only secure if it is observably secure.

I could go on with many more examples but I think you get the gist.

The election process in the US is broken, noone can say if it had an effect on the result – that’s the actual problem.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
eck
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 7:03 pm

Amen

Robert Ernest
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 28, 2021 4:51 am

Wow that’s scary 😂😂😂🤦🏻‍♂️

Russ Wood
Reply to  Robert Ernest
January 30, 2021 6:02 am

Willis, I appreciate your pages, and especially your ‘stories’, but the problem is that ‘global climate change’ IS political, not scientific. And people who feel helpless feel a need to spout off. The oppression of dissenting voices may yet lead to serious repercussions in ‘the West’.
But anyway, thanks for the pages and especially THE CHANCE to spout off!

will
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 31, 2021 6:41 pm

Certainly has to do with fraud though.

Scissor
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 7:23 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Reply to  Duker
January 29, 2021 5:50 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Front toward enemy
Reply to  Duker
January 31, 2021 12:37 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
will
Reply to  Duker
January 31, 2021 6:40 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Steve
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 3:55 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Jim
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 31, 2021 11:30 am

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
eck
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 7:03 pm

Amen

Rory Forbes
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 12:42 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 1:01 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Rory Forbes
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 1:04 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
MarkW
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 2:06 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Rory Forbes
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2021 2:28 pm

SNIP—I said five times I’d snip political posts. I was serious.

w.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
jelly34
Reply to  David Middleton
January 28, 2021 2:19 pm

David,might I remind you that the DemocRATS own the machines AND the courts.You ain’t going to vote THEM OUT.

Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 11:25 am

The damage will start by affecting many of those who were tricked by the MSM and big data into voting for Biden, especially those who can least afford it. The cost of the massive hand outs required to address this forced ‘injustice’, made far worse with subsidized illegal immigration, will then piss off the few taxpayers left who have to pay for it. It’s sad to see Biden setting up his administration to be the most harmful to America and Americans as his Marxist handlers can get away with.

Felix
Reply to  co2isnotevil
January 27, 2021 12:34 pm

2022 is going to be an eye opener. Unfortunately, the only eyes that need to be opened have long since been sealed wide shut.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  co2isnotevil
January 27, 2021 12:51 pm

It’s sad to see Biden setting up his administration …

Rest assured “Biden” is doing no such thing. It’s highly unlikely he has any actual authority at all. I haven’t seen him without Kamala in the background and his “Dr.” wife close at hand. I believe his dementia is advancing very rapidly … (answering why they’re pushing through so many “executive” orders).

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 1:01 pm

Dementia Joe is not allowed to have any press Q&A but from carefully selected “journalists” who are told what questions to ask, and what not to ask or press him on. And the Left-controlled media just takes it.

Duker
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 1:50 pm

You mean Biden is having the same ‘chosen media’ calls that Trump had ? Trumps media team stopped having any WH press conferences at all for last 18 months

MarkW
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 2:08 pm

You haven’t watched any of the press conferences in the last few years, have you.
Are you being paid to make a fool of yourself?

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Duker
January 27, 2021 3:11 pm

That’s because Trump answered reporters questions almost every single day. What would a formal press conference have provided over and above that!

I’d rather hear directly from the President than from a professional “mealymouth”.

Edgar Reinhard
Reply to  Duker
January 31, 2021 8:52 am

Quick question? Is there anything, absolutely anything, that Dozy Joe could do that you would disagree with? Do you not yet understand, that Carbon-triggered global warning, is probably, THE greatest conspiracy theory of all time?
Right now, in many countries across the world, farmers are being forced to use Carbon generators (inside greenhouses) to get their crops off to a good start! I’ve met very few dumb farmers in my life frankly, met plenty of zealous, lying politicians though, and Joe Biden most be the most corrupt politician EVER, to be elected to the office of POTUS!
Smell the roses, the scent does not lie, we do not have an ongoing global-warming crisis, do the research.

superdog683
Reply to  Rory Forbes
February 2, 2021 11:46 am

BIDEN IS A USELESS PUPPET

look up SES
most powerful usa govt. agency you never heard of.
they run everything now in the USA
every dept and every usa govt agency. EVERYTHING!!!

Reply to  co2isnotevil
January 27, 2021 1:00 pm

Bro’ (say Brah), you are perpetuating the myth that people actually voted for Biden… I thought this was a scientific forum?

MarkW
Reply to  co2isnotevil
January 27, 2021 2:07 pm

Where I live gas prices are up by 30 cents in the last 2 weeks

alastair gray
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 12:42 pm

In the UK that date was June 1st 2008 when sec. state for energy Milliband commissioned Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace to write our energy policy to be overseen by a numpity and failed politician called Gummer, since enobled as Lord Deben to run the whole shebang with family as consultants sort of HUnter Biden kind of stuff. We’ve already written the book for Joe.

eck
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 7:01 pm

With any hope, it may become an option in 2 years.

Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 12:51 pm

Joey Biden should invite people to look him in the eye….and then install 2 windmills on the White House grounds and cover the roof in solar panels……Joey must show people that he is serious Joey.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Anti_griff
January 27, 2021 1:02 pm

I’d rather see solar panels on every exposed surface, saving only the helipad. Homeless shelters on the West Lawn would be a nice touch, though.

Scissor
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 2:06 pm

My plan calls for a free Moderna vaccine with every flight you take on a 737 MAX.

DHR
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 12:12 pm

And just how would the CO2 be collected for injection? A wee problem I think

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  DHR
January 27, 2021 12:43 pm

The logistical problem of dispersed energy generation sources across North America. Nat Gas from WestTexas-NM-Colorado piped all over the western US to power generation stations as I referred to it in comment two days ago. The same situation for Montana-SpringCreek mine, Wyoming-Powder River, New Mexico-El Segundo mine coal, trains move energy-rich, low sulfur, stable, safe coal all over the Western US to generation stations.

How would the captured CO2 get to the GoM from hundreds of generation plants?
Answer: It wouldn’t. The regulatory permitting would take decades, held up by Green-socialists resistant to any pipelines. The Left’s clear intention is shut them all down. No gas or coal input, no CO2 output to capture and sequester.

Widespread, regional electricity Black-outs ARE coming under the Biden-Harris Energy plans for America.
Unaffordable gasoline and diesel fuels are coming for the middle class. Unaffordable agricultural produce and grains are coming for middle America under the Biden-Harris Energy Plans for America.

Last edited 1 month ago by joelobryan
Reply to  DHR
January 27, 2021 1:03 pm

It’s not that difficult… But the necessary infrastructure would be pricey.

Richard Page
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 2:00 pm

You do know that it’s not enough, don’t you? It will never be enough. This situation has empowered a small minority to be vocal and now they want the entire world to say that they were right all along, not fringe cranks.

Writing Observer
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 7:04 pm

@David, if price is no object… Better to spend the money on the first interstellar colonization expedition!

@Joel, before you start – that would be for hollowing out a medium-size NiFe asteroid (reserving the “tailings” for use in fission powered mass drivers for propulsion), thus solving the radiation problem. Spun, of course, to solve the microgravity problem along the inner shell. Loss of life during construction would most likely be less than that in whatever war the Harris Regime starts to distract the populace.

alastair gray
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 12:38 pm

If we do that then when we need the CO2 to delay an ice age we can let it rip again

Jerry Wilbur
Reply to  David Middleton
January 28, 2021 9:08 am

But what if the earth burps?

Jim
Reply to  David Middleton
January 31, 2021 11:28 am

Great idea, because when our grandchildren find out we actually need more CO2 we’ll have a ready reserve available.

January 27, 2021 10:28 am

As a lot of people talk about producing H2 with wind power, take that H2 for producing hydrocarbons, we have to add a lot of energy loss costs in the calculation, a calculation resulting in unpayable energy bills, at least.

Last edited 1 month ago by Krishna Gans
Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 27, 2021 12:45 pm

People who pitch about H2 don’t know the first thing about actual chemistry, thermodynamics, and the many mechanical and materials engineering problems involved. The few that actually might, are simply con artists looking for a score big$ on the stupid. Scores like free-money grants to study the issues from Uncle Sugar.

Last edited 1 month ago by joelobryan
Alan Robertson
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 2:43 pm

You’re right, Joel. Hydrogen as fuel isn’t really an energy source, per se, but would be better considered as an energy storage method, in other words, a battery.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 2:54 pm

In Germany they push a lot of money in H2, it’s their way to the CO2 free future, as crazy as it is.
Germany’s National Hydrogen Strategy
“In the fight against climate change, hydrogen made with renewable electricity is increasingly seen as a silver bullet for sectors with particularly stubborn emissions, such as heavy industry and aviation. Germany has set out to become a global leader in the associated hydrogen technologies, and the governmnet has penned a National Hydrogen Strategy to fulfil these ambitions. This factsheet summarises the strategy, which was approved by government on Wednesday 10 June.”

Facepalm ^2

google or what else for “germany hydrogen”,
comment image

Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 29, 2021 5:55 pm

Generated by electricity from those nuclear plants Germany is shutting down?

Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 29, 2021 5:54 pm

Well, that would be another way of storing energy. 😉

Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 10:29 am

Well, the “climate czar” in MA says that MA can get to net zero by 2050. He says we can reduce carbon emissions by 85%. Then we’ll need to find some way to balance the remaining 15% by sequestration- and much of that will come from forests. As a forester, I asked him to be more specific but he said we’ll just have to work that out! Even if we never cut another tree during that period- the forests can’t sequester nearly enough to satisfy the new “2050 net free bill”. And then we’ll have to replace wood products with what? Cement, metals, plastic? Makes no sense. And to even get to that 85% we’ll have to cover every building in the state with solar panels AND install several thousand wind turbines AND cover 60-120 acres of land with ground mounted solar- all in this very tiny state. When I complain about the stupidity of this- I’m accused of being unprofessional!

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 10:30 am

Also, I keep asking who amongst the green crowd will ask to have a solar or wind “farm” built next to their home. So far, no takers.

Derg
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 12:33 pm

Joseph instead of solar and wind why doesn’t Biden build internment camps for all the white supremacists, racists, bigots, homophobes, misogynists aka Trump supporters and make them turn large cranks to generate electricity? The woke could hold whips to ensure those plebes generate the power needed for the 1%

😉

Writing Observer
Reply to  Derg
January 27, 2021 7:06 pm

DO… NOT… DO… THEIR… THINKING… FOR… THEM!

Robert Ernest
Reply to  Derg
January 28, 2021 5:00 am

What will that whip thing pay? How big a dent will it make on the unemployment numbers?

Dave Fair
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 12:30 pm

Hey, net zero by 2050 in MA is easy! Just institute all the “climate czar” plans and everybody will move to TX, FL, AZ, etc.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 27, 2021 12:37 pm

Many people have left the state. The population is roughly 6 million and it was the same 50 years ago. It hasn’t decreased because the state welcomes people from 3rd world countries. Now, most official state documents are published in numerous languages and schools now need expensive translators. The cost of living here is going up fast. When I went to the state university in the late ’60s, it cost $600 a semester. I think it’s now $10,000 a semester or more. Cheap compared to the many ivy league schools here but when most people can’t afford to go to a state college- we have a big problem.

MarkW
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 2:17 pm

Don’t worry, if the progressives get their way, college will be free.
Free to everyone except the taxpayers. In which case you can expect actual costs to explode.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 27, 2021 1:05 pm

My Arizona is turning libtard shades of Blue under steady assault by low-information voters fleeing unaffordable California for the jobs and affordable living here.

Writing Observer
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 7:10 pm

Slightly OT – have you signed the recall petition for Mayor Brown Hooha yet? (Or perhaps you live in the county. I haven’t heard of one yet for any of the Board of Commissars.)

Mark A Luhman
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 27, 2021 9:33 pm

Leave out AZ it been Californianated.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 12:48 pm

MA will be like California and expect fly-over country to take it in the backside in order to provide what MA needs!

EdA the New Yorker
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 8:32 pm

“60-120 acres” Joseph?

MA must be a very, very tiny state.

Based on my trips up 84 to visit at MIT, it seemed as though even MA can spare that, IF means saving the planet.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  EdA the New Yorker
January 28, 2021 3:01 am

I meant 60-120 THOUSAND acres- most of which will be forest. And it is a very tiny state- look at it on a map of the U.S. if you can find it.

Robert Ernest
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 28, 2021 5:02 am

If he can find a map? 😂👍🤦🏻‍♂️

Larry in Texas
January 27, 2021 10:32 am

I think the Biden plan (as promulgated in reality by the Green New Deal-ers) is designed to intentionally crater the US and world economies, so that the “experts” can take total power and control. Sort of like in the medieval, Dark Ages eras.

Mr. Lee
Reply to  Larry in Texas
January 27, 2021 10:47 am

Clearly, it serves the interests of those in power. My guess is that it expands the size and power of the centralized bureaucratic state, so that the narrative serves those who work for the state. And, since the centralized state primarily exists to serve lobbyists for corporate interests, it is in the lobbyist’s interest to expand the central power of the state.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Larry in Texas
January 27, 2021 10:53 am

Everyone keeps talking about solving a nonexistent “problem” founded on bad science, imagined data, politics, virtue signalling and wishful thinking. For over 20 years I’ve watched, read and listened to people (on both sides) expanding on a science that barely surpasses astrology. It has been the blind leading the blind for decades. They know exactly how much unicorn horn and faerie dust is necessary to do the job. All they need now are unicorns and faeries.
The whole thing is laughable … a fantasy from 1st to last.

Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 11:05 am

Unfortunately, that fantasy is now a nightmarish reality.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 27, 2021 1:15 pm

Climate change science clearly hasn’t been about either climate or science for over 20 years. Simply about change.
I call the climate modelers, Climate Dowsers. Dowsing is a perfectly correct description of what they are doing.

Dowsing – Dowsing is a type of divination employed in attempts to locate ground water, buried metals or ores, gemstones, oil, gravesites, malign ‘earth vibrations’ and many other objects and materials without the use of a scientific apparatus

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

The pseudoscience rent-seekers took over academic “science” and drove out scientists, like Judith Curry, willing to be honest about the dismal state of climate science.
In Australia we’ve seen the same situation in attacks on good scientists like Peter Ridd and BoM’s ugly historical station temperature adjustment crimes.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 1:49 pm

Yes, dowsing IS the perfect analogy for the current state of climate “science”. It suits their reliance on logical fallacies (in all flavours). Post hoc ergo propter hoc fits both perfectly. I’ve experienced a few dowser ‘true believers’ over the years. You could punch a well anywhere, yet they strut around congratulating themselves when they hit water. I love it when they explain the method and how it works … (often in great detail), just like AGW true believers.

… attacks on good scientists like Peter Ridd …

… Judith Curry, Richard Lindzen, Murry Salby and so many others who’ve been cancelled to cover up the lies. Yet they laud pretentious, fraudulent toads like Mikey Mann and Gavin Schmidt.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 11:22 pm

Who was it, said: Magic is technology too advanced to be understood by the observer? There are quite a number of drillers who not only employ dowsing, they guarantee results. In other words, they dowse, and if they drill for nothing, you do not pay. For those who know what drilling costs, you will understand this is not a business model you can base on luck or wishfull thinking.
Sometimes I find those who laugh at things they do not understand, actually do not understand much of anything they regurgitate without understanding, geddit?
P.S. No, I do not “believe” in dowsing.

WXcycles
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 29, 2021 5:40 pm

Read the long (original) version of Stranger in a Strange Land between Christmas and New Years. I remember reading it when about 14 or so and being very impressed. But couldn’t remember much about the plot, so decided to re-read it after almost 40 years. The second reading was just as surprising as the first. Glad no one ever tried to make it into a movie. The new (rejected) Messiah had infinite global energy all sorted out too. But they didn’t Grok. Replacing the fake with the real was a bit too upsetting for the fakers and controllers. Mass stoning of the heretic with free liberating magic for everyone was preferable.

Darrin
Reply to  paranoid goy
January 28, 2021 8:34 am

Don’t believe in dowsing? Not so sure myself, had a dowser for a water well drilling company hand me his rods and challenged me to use them. I went over where I knew for a fact there was water and sure enough his rods crossed…This was on our farm and I spent over an hour in testing, not once did they fail to detect water where I knew there was water. Thinking maybe it was a subconcious twisting of my hands concentrated on holding my hands steady and still the rods twisted… Something was happening that I can’t explain, I suspect magnetism not magic.

Reply to  Darrin
January 28, 2021 11:25 am

Most dowsers I have heard of, use sticks, glass bottles filled with water, their hands… Magnetism seems …er…mmm.
Whatever it is, it works, at least for some people. Not every priest can make holy water, not only priests can make holy water, that has been shown.
Isn’t life a wonder?
Learned the term “Liehman rings” this week. Familiar with the concept of chaotic patterning on animals, it was still such a blast, curling my cat’s tail in foetal position, and actually seeing a theory demonstrated in practice, which until then was just some sort of natural magic trick. Always imagined a kinda splortch on the zygote, a sort of abstract …paint event passing through, now it’s maths, kinda.
I have this theory where your personal clock ticks every time you learn something new. I grew up a bit this week. Like, did you catch the WUWT article on CEEMD? Too cool! That’s two growth spurts in one week!
Imagine we had internet when I was a kid… Then again, libraries were cool… and no-one shat cookies into your memory.

Reply to  Larry in Texas
January 29, 2021 5:58 pm

I doubt they are that clever, but certainly they want to control humans – and be the elite that always rises in collectivism despite the everyone-equal claim.

lbeyeler
January 27, 2021 10:41 am

Beautiful, just beautiful, thank you.

Maybe a bit optimistic in this part here:
Since there are 8,766 hours in a year, we need to build and install about 193 PWhrs/year divided by 8766 hrs/year ≈ 22 terawatts (TW, or 1012 watts) of energy generating capacity.”

I think you could probably double the number of required wind turbines and all the rest to make up for the peak hours.

John Edmondson
January 27, 2021 10:55 am

Right on the money as usual Willis. Thanks John

Mr. Lee
January 27, 2021 10:57 am

It won’t happen. But I doubt if that is the goal. Those leading the charge to fight climate change couldn’t care less if the battle is won or lost. They only care that they are in charge and get highly remunerated for it.
State administrators always want more money and power . It is their raison d’etre. But they can’t just claim more money and power. They have to at least pretend to have a reason.

Curious George
Reply to  Mr. Lee
January 27, 2021 11:14 am

Things rarely are what they seem to be. Look at an effort to depose an ex-president, scheduled for February 8. Surely it is the most pressing agenda for 100% of Democrats. They are still shocked at the number of deplorables.

I have an even better agenda for them: Banish the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

MarkW
Reply to  Curious George
January 27, 2021 2:21 pm

On the other hand, the more time they waste on trying to remove Trump from office, the less time they will have to do damage.

Robert Ernest
Reply to  MarkW
January 28, 2021 5:06 am

Unfortunately I think they will find time for both. Uh and the energy for it. (That last bit was for Willis.)

Robert Ernest
Reply to  Curious George
January 28, 2021 5:04 am

Now your talking. Then on to the first!

Alan Robertson
Reply to  Mr. Lee
January 27, 2021 11:15 am

You are correct. Getting to zero emissions isn’t their goal.
Ever see that Ted Talk where Bill Gates put up a formula for getting to zero emissions, whereby one of the components was bringing human populations to zero? And the audience laughed?

fred250
Reply to  Alan Robertson
January 27, 2021 12:16 pm

“bringing human populations to zero”

.

Hence the need for a Bill Gates devised covid vaccine

Rick C
January 27, 2021 11:00 am

Willis: Nothing wrong with your calculations. I’ve done similar ones that pretty much agree. But, of course, this doesn’t cover the other approach which is to reduce demand. We just need to eliminate 2/3rds of the population and move most of the remaining population into an agrarian society utilizing primarily horses and oxen for power. (This may seen unrealistic, but Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot accomplished population reductions of large magnitudes in just a couple of decades.) We could then use existing wind/solar infrastructure to provide everyone that’s left with 2-3 hours of electricity per day to charge their cell phones and run their refrigerators. Might need to restrict each home to say 5000 watts though so no high demand appliances like air conditioning, heating, electric dryers, ranges or deep well water pumps.

You may think that I’m just being sarcastic, but there are quite a few population control advocates among the radical Green groups advocating for drastic human population reduction. Apparently they want to save the planet from us humans so that we don’t interfere with plants’ and animals’ enjoyment of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I do find some hope in the observation that nothing that is impossible has ever actually happened.

Last edited 1 month ago by Rick C
Ronald Havelock
Reply to  Rick C
January 27, 2021 11:59 am

I love that: “I do find some hope in the observation that nothing that is impossible has ever actually happened.” Who said it first? The truth? CO2 is harmless, no measurable climate effect. beneficial on balance to human life.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Rick C
January 27, 2021 12:52 pm

(This may seen unrealistic, but Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot accomplished population reductions of large magnitudes in just a couple of decades.)”

And they moved huge chunks of the population into an agrarian society using draft animals for power, just like you said would be needed. (actually a lot of it was *man* power, not draft animal power)

MarkW
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 2:23 pm

Today’s greens wouldn’t allow draft animals. Can’t have humans enslaving our 4-footed brothers after all.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2021 6:02 pm

Don’t forget the other climate boogieman—methane. More working animals would mean more methane, as would having too many humans around.

“Are you essential or non-essential?”

Fran
Reply to  Rick C
January 27, 2021 2:32 pm

Unfortunately I think you are right. We keep on about the fact that current standards of living are incompatible with ‘0 carbon’, but what they mean is a whole lot less people will be there and they will live “simple” lives.

Korkin
Reply to  Rick C
January 31, 2021 12:24 am

The Soviet Union under Stalin saved humanity from obscurantists who determined racial usefulness by the shape of the skull. And from “gas vans”, neatly, with German pedantry, placed throughout Europe. For inferior races.
The problem of reducing the population of China was at one time very successfully solved by British opium traders. Mao’s Cultural Revolution is simply a children’s party compared to the deeds of gentlemens.
The tragedy of Kampuchea / Cambodia is the result of the American military aggression in Indochina in 1964-1974. Pol Pot’s rise to power would not have happened without the bloody terror unleashed by his predecessor, the American protege Lon Nol.
I suspect that in a few decades after the epic failure of the green course, Putin will be named the main culprit.

Old Retired Guy
January 27, 2021 11:06 am

An interesting data set would be how these numbers compare to what was installed per day over the last 5, 3, 1 years. And what it means if you add 3 to 5 years at the current pace.

January 27, 2021 11:10 am

Even more impossible is that doing away with fossil burning will lower atmospheric concentrations of CO2. Natural emissions of CO2 are at least an order of magnitude greater than all anthropogenic emissions. These natural emission rates have been rising for decades as tropical ocean SSTs have been riseing. It is true that over a year, practically all of these emissions are absorbed by multiple sinks (rain, trees, grass, cold ocean waters, phytoplankton, etc.). The concentration of anthropogenic emissions in the atmsphere are similarly affected by these sinks. So there is no significant accumulation of such emissions.

Notanacademic
Reply to  Fred Haynie
January 27, 2021 1:49 pm

You seem to be forgetting that man made co2 is different and much much worse than normal co2. Sarc

Keith Rowe
January 27, 2021 11:11 am

Now you just got to add hydrogen to the mix and it’s losses. It’s insane.

Stephen Ellis
January 27, 2021 11:13 am

Nor does your analysis address the intractable problem of transportation. Last time I looked you can’t plug a plane in. And what about all the derivative products that fossil fuels provide like plastic for syringes, waterproof garments that are loved by the greenies. Your analysis highlights just how difficult this is going to be without even factoring in these additional challenges.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 4:59 pm

And electric agriculture? What a joke.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
January 27, 2021 7:05 pm

Carlo,

Most people have no idea of farming and ranching. As I posted somewhere else I had a cousin that worked on a ranch where the bunkhouse was 11 miles from the nearest road (i.e. the ranch was more than 22miles long and there was only one accessible road. Imagine you are 11 miles from the ranchhouse running a combine in a soybean field and the battery dies.
What do you do? Have someone haul a diesel generator out to you to recharge the battery? It’s getting ready to rain and you wind up sitting there for two hours waiting for the battery to recharge? If it was a diesel you could refuel in 15 minutes and get back to work.

John Garrett
January 27, 2021 11:16 am

Mr. Eschenbach,

Thank you × 1,000,000.

The U.S. and its noise-manufacturers (a/k/a the media) are wholly innumerate (in the case of the media, that’s a large part of the reason its employees went into the noise production business in the first place).

You have now done the mathematics for them. Let’s see if they can read.

David Dibbell
January 27, 2021 11:25 am

I just replayed the President’s short address and Climate Crisis EO signing this afternoon. Word salad, “good union jobs,” “we can do this,” etc. We are in serious trouble.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  David Dibbell
January 27, 2021 2:03 pm

Whenever Human-caused Climate Change is discussed in a group, such as a public meeting on the topic, Skeptics should hold up a sign that says:

“Carbon Dioxide is a Harmless Gas. Show Me Otherwise.”

or something similar.

Let’s make the Alarmists prove their case. The Alarmists will try to dismiss the sign by saying the “science is already settled” but we can’t let them get away with that.

These signs should be waved in the face of a lot of Republicans, too, since a lot of them are either lukewarmers or unsure of their position on the topic.

Let’s give them some assurance. Assurance there is no evidence that CO2 poses any problem for humankind. They will get this assurance when they go to find the evidence the sign requires, and they can’t find any. Then they will question the basic premise of the scam. Which is what they should have been doing all along.

We need signs and T-shirts, that challenge the bogus Consensus.

We ought to give a cash reward to the first skeptic that manages to get the sign on television.

Mark A Luhman
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 27, 2021 9:37 pm

How about the question “you do know that every carbon atom in your body came from CO2” my bet is, you will be called a liar.

David Dibbell
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 28, 2021 3:44 am

And to the “lukewarmers” – don’t get me wrong, I have great respect for Lindzen, Spencer, Curry, etc. – my sign would say, “Show me the evidence that Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity can be reliably distinguished from 0C.” Or to fit on an actual sign, “ECS > 0C? Show me.”

Tom Abbott
Reply to  David Dibbell
January 28, 2021 5:03 am

“Show me the evidence that Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity can be reliably distinguished from 0C”

They can’t do that because they don’t have that evidence. They are guessing.

They don’t even know exactly how CO2 in the atmosphere works. Some people posit that CO2 results in cooling, and some people posit that CO2 is now incapable of adding any more warmth to the atmosphere at current levels and higher.

So, the science definitely is not settled. Not by a long shot. Anyone who says it is demonstrates their misunderstanding of the issue.

Francisco Machado
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 28, 2021 6:17 am

“science is already settled” – There’s a word for that. Dogma. Like the geocentric universe. And dogma is not subject to challenge. Heresy will be punished. The Society has no room for apostasy.

Pat from kerbob
January 27, 2021 11:29 am

Exactly what I have been pointing out elsewhere for here in ALberta

It requires converting to EVs, electric heat etc, conservative assumption of tripling grid
So AB 10GW becomes 30, 1/3 availability of wind means need 90gw installed, even with 3mw turbines that is 30,000 of them

For little Alberta with 4.4 million people, a moderate sized suburb in China or Korea

Absolutely ridiculous

Pauleta
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
January 27, 2021 1:09 pm

But, didn’t your read Notley’s op-ed today?

John F Hultquist
January 27, 2021 11:32 am

Arithmetic and the concept of scale are not taught in lawyer school. [See: Biden & Kerry]
Not a chance that the calculations could be understood, even if such folks could be enticed to look at them.

Mark A Luhman
Reply to  John F Hultquist
January 27, 2021 9:39 pm

Lawyer are Lawyer because they can’t do math but have fairly good memories and are good at telling people up is down and down is up.

Pat from kerbob
January 27, 2021 11:33 am

Willis
A suggestion because the crazies talk about magic batteries in conjunction with wind and solar

Please add a short paragraph using best available battery technology

For every 10GW of grid renewables we need minimum 24 hours battery back up, here on canadian prairies 72hours more likely

How physically big would a 10GW 24 hour battery backup be?

MarkW
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
January 27, 2021 2:28 pm

Another problem with batteries is that you lose 10 to 20% of your power charging then discharging those batteries.
Also, you can’t let the batteries get too cold, or too hot, especially when being charged or discharged. So a lot of energy will be used just housing those batteries.

Last edited 1 month ago by MarkW
Writing Observer
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
January 27, 2021 7:15 pm

I’m not Willis, but I spent about ten minutes doing a quickie calculation with Powerwall 2s. See my comment above (or below, I have no idea how this site sorts comments some days).

Writing Observer
Reply to  Writing Observer
January 27, 2021 7:18 pm

Ah. The comment link widget only appears when you are in some small parts of the comment, so I mistakenly thought it had disappeared.

See https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/01/27/bright-green-impossibilities/#comment-3170876

alastair gray
January 27, 2021 11:36 am

Well done Willis Much the same computation as I wrote about a couple of weeks ago with my letter to my MP, and  Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.
I came to the same dismal conclusion as you regarding just how many windmills or Nukes we must build.

I did get a reply from mr Kwarteng,s researcher who assured me that it was all doable but to resend my spreadsheet so he could reply in detail. Here is hoping.

Meanwhile back at the GWPF pressure is being brought to bear on government for detailed costings of how we get to carbon free in 2050 and how much it will cost. They say some guff about 220,000 data points ( whatever a data point is and 100 spreadsheet. of detailed wisdom that is above the pay grade of we,the people.

Using the expertise that Andy May, David Middleton, and others routinely bring to bear on assessing viability of oil plays I think it could all be done on one decent spraeadsheet in a couple of weeks but there again we dont work for the gubmint

TheHeaterGuy
January 27, 2021 11:38 am

I think we’re missing “the big picture”. The other way to do this is to turn back the clock to the stone age. They’ll take your car, tell you you don’t need to heat your house, only run your factories when it’s sunny, run the internet servers when it’s windy, and convert everyone to be a vegetarian…or else. I, for one, will resist.

tonyb
Editor
Reply to  TheHeaterGuy
January 27, 2021 12:01 pm

I am worried that everyone here agrees with these figures. I would be happier if Nick or Griff or Loydo popped up to dispute the calculations.

Because if the figures are correct it is difficult to believe our respective governments have not also done the same calculations. Yet they ignore the obvious nonsense of being able to do what they tell us they intend to do.

Dissenters please!

tonyb

Alan Robertson
Reply to  tonyb
January 27, 2021 2:47 pm

How dare you!

Francisco Machado
Reply to  Alan Robertson
January 28, 2021 6:27 am

A quote from Saint Greta?

Rockwa
Reply to  tonyb
January 27, 2021 2:48 pm

Won’t happen. Surprisingly, Nick, Griff and Loydo are just smart enough not to take on Willis. And the odd time they do raise their head above the parapets it’s only to throw some left field diversionary comment. Present a well reasoned argument to Willis? Not in their playbook.

Curious George
Reply to  tonyb
January 27, 2021 4:09 pm

“t is difficult to believe our respective governments have not also done the same calculations.”
Governments are here to govern, not to calculate 🙂

old engineer
Reply to  tonyb
January 27, 2021 4:29 pm

tonyb-

“,,,it is difficult to believe our respective governments have not also done the same calculations.”

Of course they have. Or rather, some junior engineer in some agency did them, with the same results Willis showed. The junior engineer took them to his supervisor, who threw them in the trash, and told the junior engineer to go back to his desk and do what he was told.

A short story from my own experience. In the early 70’s I was employed at an institution that had EPA contracts for applied research in mobile source emissions. The EPA was a new entity, with a small staff and big job. Their entire emphasis was on getting the correct engineering solutions.

Some time it the ’80 that began to change, while correct engineering was desired it had to comply with the political goal. By the late 90’s competent engineering wasn’t even on the list. The political goal was all that mattered. I reviewed the engineering basis for an EPA regulation at that time, and found that it was complete nonsense! I knew it had been done by EPA engineers I had worked with, and knew were competent. They had simply came up with the proof they were told to, in order to keep their job.

So yes, there are government employees who know, they are just not allowed to speak.

Notanacademic
Reply to  TheHeaterGuy
January 27, 2021 2:00 pm

I wonder if that’s what they mean when they say you’ll own nothing and you’ll be happy. It might work if we own nothing but I’m pretty dam sure we won’t be happy but because we’ll own nothing we’ll lack the means to fight back, and we’ll be to cold and hungry.

Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 11:51 am

Obviously, the Net Zero push from the Left isn’t about climate or energy. It is merely a means to an end. The “end” being a total hold on political power for the Left.

n.n
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 27, 2021 12:57 pm

Capital and control. They come for the taxes. They stay for your savings and liberty.

Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 11:55 am

Joe Biden just said on TV (1/27/21) that the US will be off fossil fuel by 2035. So double all those figures for the US. It wouldn’t be 500 2MW wind turbines per day, it would be 1000. It wouldn’t be 40sq miles of solar panels per day, it would be 80sq miles, or an area the size of the Tulsa, OK MSA every two days!! It would be a 2.1GW nuke plant every 10 days.

Talk about lying to the American people. Biden should be impeached for this!

David Streeter
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 12:11 pm

You can’t impeach someone for rank stupidity.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  David Streeter
January 27, 2021 12:56 pm

If you can impeach an ex-president for telling protesters to be peaceful then you can certainly impeach one for being stupid!

fred250
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 1:14 pm

Not a democrat president, you can’t !

Tom Abbott
Reply to  David Streeter
January 27, 2021 2:18 pm

The House of Representatives can impeach the president for anything they so desire. It doesn’t matter if the president is guilty or not, it just matters if the low-life Democrats have the votes.

The Democrats have abused their political power. They are using the power of the federal government to punish their political opponents.

The Radical Democrats threaten the freedoms of all of us with their insane ideas.

Mary Darlene shepherd
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 4, 2021 12:54 pm

I’m just a dumb blond so bear with me. I for one when they started talking about this 2035 and everyone driving electric cars all I could think about is what are we going to do with all the millions of gas guzzling cars on the road today. Are they planning to convert gas cars into electric cars or are the cars going to be dumped into the ocean, or buried under ground? can someone tell me how this is.going to be accomplished so the electric cars we have to afford and buy can be driven on our roads and highways? So until we accomplish this problem we really can’t fix the problems you guys are saying is impossible. Anyone with common sense already knows none of this is possible. Please take me seriously. I need to know if I’m missing something. It is certainly a hoax on all of us living on this earth. How do they expect.the poor to buy electric cars? Can electric charging stations be built by 2035? And doesn’t electricity need fossil fuels? The thought of clogging up our beautiful land with those monstrosity huge ugly turbines is the craziest thing I can imagine and when they aren’t useful after their expiration date do they also get disposed of the same way as the gas guzzling cars?

Last edited 25 days ago by Willis Eschenbach
Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mary Darlene shepherd
February 4, 2021 2:25 pm

I’m really not being facetious – we would wind up fixing the old cars like they do in Cuba, someone will surely make the parts or we’ll scavenge them from junkyards. Then we’ll buy black market gasoline just like black market drugs are sold. Illicit gas smuggled in from Mexico, Venezuela, and China.

And, no, charging stations won’t be built by 2035. Can you imagine digging up all the sidewalks and streets in every city in America that has on-street parking by 2035 in order to bring in charging stations? What are they going to repave all the streets with? Asphalt? Where will the gravel and oil come from to do all this?

Forget about the electric grid. If you can’t provide the charging stations there won’t much of an additional load on the grid.

Pat from kerbob
January 27, 2021 12:02 pm

Here is alberta it is -15c and snowing, our Wind assets are running at 9%, solar at 6%

http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet

Can’t beat facts

100% renewables means death

Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 12:04 pm

Off topic- sorry- but this is interesting in a wrong way:

“Climate-Fueled Disasters Killed 475,000 People over 20 Years”
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-fueled-disasters-killed-475-000-people-over-20-years/

“Nearly a half-million people, mostly from the world’s poorest countries, died over the past two decades from conditions associated with climate disasters, according to new findings from the nonprofit Germanwatch.”

What the hell is a climate disaster? They may be weather disasters but who can prove they are due to climate change? Not possible.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 27, 2021 12:47 pm

In another dumb ass Scientific American article, “On Climate, Biden Must Do More Than Undo Trump’s Damage” at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/on-climate-biden-must-do-more-than-undo-trumps-damage/ I see: “to stay on course to meet the two degrees C goal, 90 percent of U.S. passenger cars and light-duty trucks would need to be electric by 2050”.

Given the fact that much of the world will not live up to the Paris agreement- even if 90% of U.S. vehicles are electric in 2050- we certainly won’t arrive at that perfect world only 2 degrees C- even assuming carbon emissions are actually the cause of that supposed problem, which of course is probably not the case.

Scientific American is going downhill fast. It offers no suggestion that perhaps the climate “problem” is exaggerated.

While I’m at it, check out: “Biden prioritizes climate change as national security concern, pauses oil drilling on public lands” at https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-prioritizes-climate-change-as-national-security-concern-pauses-oil-drilling-on-public-lands/ar-BB1d98n8
In that article, I see, “”Science is telling us that we don’t have a moment to lose,” said Gina McCarthy, Biden’s national climate adviser”. So this new climate religeon has a God called Science which talks to them!

Lee Scott
January 27, 2021 12:09 pm

What this discussion fails to account for is that the ultimate green goal is to drastically reduce the amount of energy the world uses. It’s not to merely substitute ‘renewables’ for fossil fuels to meet the same projected energy use. Deindustrialization is high on their list. We are seen as consuming too much, and our desire for stuff we don’t really need is ravaging the planet. It’s not just CO2 and the GHG effect, In a perfect green world, that projected energy-use curve will go way down, not up. We’ll all be riding bicycles and plowing our fields with mules again like our great grandfathers did. It will also mean a huge depopulation of the earth in a new Cultural Revolution that will make Mao’s look like child’s play.

Reply to  Lee Scott
January 27, 2021 1:19 pm

Your premise is correct, but your extrapolation is faulty. Am I using the right words here?
They will surely try to clamp down on energy usage, but that does not mean we will plough with mules. You will not be allowed to plow without a mining licence (you are extracting resources from the soil) and your crops will be a dangerous point of possible infection for licenced crops, think bird flu, pig flu etc, “necessitating” the culling of all wild strains (non-GMO or hybrid). That is IF you can find seed or breeding stock in the first place.
Already generating your own power is subject to taxation and fees, so going “off the grid” is a pipe dream, especially when considering they already remove children to “places of safety” from homes without municipal (poisoned) water and Mains power connections. Not being tied to the municipal sewage system is, apparently, tantamount to child endangerment, so living in the country will become illegal for families.
So, depopulation? Sure. Plowing with mules a la stone age? In Afghanistan, maybe, not in Zion’s Undeclared Soviets of America, you won’t.
Don’t you wish you Yankees were nicer to them sand-devils now?
There does exist, however, the vague possiblity the “ET disclosure” will allow us access to superior technology, negating the need for all this doom and gloom and Greenism.

Last edited 1 month ago by paranoid goy
Robert MacLellan
Reply to  Lee Scott
January 27, 2021 7:04 pm

Didn’t R.A. Heinlein prophesy something similar to this in the 1960s? Something about the “Crazy Years” and mass hysteria leading to a fundamentalist society?

Rud Istvan
January 27, 2021 12:10 pm

Nice post, WE.

The way I see it, Dems ‘led’ by Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer are now actively destroying their own Democrat party for all to see via their extremes. Second shampeachment, US all electric vehicles, halt deportation of final order illegal alien criminals, Fauci double mask after vaccination, DC statehood (a constitutional impossibility thanks to A1§8.17 …piling absurdity on absurdity for all to see. The 2022 general reaction will be greater than the Teaparty ‘revolution’ of 2010, and Biden (if still around) will get NOTHING done from then to 2024.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 27, 2021 1:05 pm

Fingers crossed… 🙂

Rud Istvan
Reply to  David Middleton
January 27, 2021 4:36 pm

David, a fun side note which you can verify with Charles. More than just my fingers crossed.
I was greatly bothered by all the slow ‘steal’ lawsuits, given clear and constitutional legislative deadlines. One night, tossing and turning, vaguely remembered A3§2.2. Called Charles the next morning after checking. Said to him, so I already emailed the solution to DeSantis in Florida. Charles said, why not also Abbot and Paxton in Texas? So I did. And Paxton acted (Tx v. Pa), but SCOTUS declined to take it up, Alito and Thomas dissenting.

What Charles did not til now know is that my gold SCOTUS cufflinks were given to me, as a thank you for pro bono ABA Appelate division service at a banquet in the SCOTUS Great Hall, by Justice Thomas himself some years ago.

I used to be a pretty good lawyer.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 28, 2021 7:12 am

What happened to the ban on politics?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 27, 2021 2:25 pm

“DC statehood (a constitutional impossibility thanks to A1§8.17”

Democrat U.S. Senator Carper proposed making DC a State earlier today.

The Founding Fathers didn’t make DC a State, but the current batch of crazy Democrats want to change all that up. Let’s stick with the Founding Father’s plan.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 27, 2021 3:24 pm

The FF’s didn’t want the seat of government to have any impact on the politics of the country. The Dems want the exact opposite! They want government workers to vote in the best interest of the government workers! Which party wants bigger government and more regulation by government bureaucrats? Answer that and you’ll understand why the Dems want DC to be a state!

(ask yourself why the Democrats were so dead set against Trump moving the Bureau of Land Management to Colorado)

Francisco Machado
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 28, 2021 7:29 am

This has been going on since Hamilton/Jefferson. The founders’ concept of state autonomy is anathema to control freaks. Marx conceded that Communism could not successfully be implemented until it was universal. Probably because if there was anywhere else to go people would opt to go there. Marx even said “If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist.” Tenth Amendment “The powers not delegated to the United States…” Like education, health care, climate control…

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 27, 2021 2:38 pm

Today some Democrat was quoted as saying that the DC riots are proof that DC needs to be a state.
If that’s true, then Seattle should have been made a state last year.

PaulH
January 27, 2021 12:24 pm

No doubt all those windmill factories and solar panel factories will be powered exclusively by windmills and solar panels. 🤣

George Daddis
Reply to  PaulH
January 27, 2021 1:47 pm

Of course not!
We’ll continue to buy those items from China.

Steve Case
January 27, 2021 12:25 pm

 Actual delivery from solar panels on a 24/7/365 basis is on the order of 2.75 watts per square metre depending on location.

Really, Is it that low? After a short search I find the claim of about 160 watts per meter² and then of course that needs to be divided by all the time it’s in the dark or not full sun ie., angle, clouds & what else? Just seems kind of low.

A run down of the arithmetic would be great (-:    

Richard Page
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 2:14 pm

Note not not Willis.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 11:40 pm

Solar at good clip gives 1kW/m2. Divide by 4 to compensate for night at high latitude. That bit I have to guess, I am just off teh tropic here, never seen snow in my life, soooo…. Divide by, say, three for clouds (cloudy weather does not preclude usefulness, just as a clear sky with high humidity can severly impact power). 1000/12 gives me 80W or so, not 8. Unless you are one of the stupidses I see every day, mounting their panels where it is convenient or pretty, instead of aiming them at the sun properly.
Still, that means 3m2 just to run a small fridge. Provided you have batteries that run on unicorn farts that last forever, because the current state of battery technology, price/capacity/lifecycle, borders on a crime against humanity…
…and as I scroll down I see the need to calculate this per hectare, for those who think it a good idea to build entire landscapes full of these things, which I think stupid from top to bottom. You either decentralise it, or it become just another environmental nightmare.
Put on your best Dracula-butler voice and say “Decentraliiiiiise…”

Last edited 1 month ago by paranoid goy
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 28, 2021 4:49 am

Ah, I won’t argue with your stats, I get my numbers off of my own roof, which carries no serious argumentative weight. To be fair, I’ll half my own numbers, I have not actually measured the square meterage.
As for decentralisation, I have to clarify: I mean total self-ownership. Every guy for himself, no power companies involved. This will not be feasible in scenarios like factories or high-rise living, I realise that. I could use this as platform to denounce the stupidity of high-rise living, but I realise how stupid that would be.
Instead I can list a few benefits of individual ownership:
1) No single point of failure.
2) IF, I say IF we grant subsidies, it goes to the end user, not shareholders and CEO bonuses. I hate subsidies, they are always the result/origin of corrupt business practices, as far as my admittedly limited thinking goes.
3) People who become responsible for their own generation, will automatically become more responsible for their own usage, which would cut waste real quick, a much better approach than legislating good behaviour. The Greens should kiss my ass just for that!
4) Because the general public will be responsible for their own resource management, they will demand better design and manufacture of appliances and abodes, a major factor in the current wasteful design paradigm of “let’s add some more useless blinkenscheize to ‘differentiate our product'”. We shall not go into the dreadful state of battery technology now.
5) As a side effect, this will require people to be more tech savvy, meaning more engineering and trade schools, fewer underwater hairstylists and pet dentitionists.
A last thought: That terribly low efficiency of solar farms? How much of that is due to the mechanicals on the farm serving nothing but the farm? Automated cleaners are nice to have, but from my own experience, a little dust does not impact efficiency as much as one would think, I wash my panels no more than once a month, if that, and I live in the wind shadow of mine dumps, veritable shitheaps of ever-blowing motherloving dust. Don’t ask me about the friggin’ Uranium!!! Still…
In the end, we will still burn fuel, unless you can sell me a pocket-sized nuclear reactor, which I won’t trust, anyway, especialy if it was made in Fong Kong.
Now, about those ET disclosures and zero-point energy…

Steve Case
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 28, 2021 8:24 am

Thanks for the reply. I wrote that without any mental, back of the envelope, or quick & dirty estimate.

After a short search for Trenberth’s energy budget chart I find 161 watts/m² reaches the surface. And another search of solar panel efficiency finds a lot of different values I’m gonna use 15% (not to far from 13%) which yields 24.15 watts/m² call it 25 watts and as was pointed out not all of the land area is used on a solar farm here’s an aerial view a solar farm:
comment image

Looks like 60% is used, but there’s other roads and buildings associated with it so something less than that and I’m coming up with less than 15 watts. All my rounding off seems to have been up rather than down, so sticking my wetted finger in the air I give it between 10 and 15 watts/m² on a 24/7/365 basis which is a lot less than I thought when I posted that. 13% efficiency would have been 12.6 watts/m² Without accounting for any other reasons and there no doubt is some maintenance downtime it’s close to your revised 8.3 watts/m²

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Case
January 28, 2021 1:55 pm

Another point is that efficiency goes down as the solar panel ages. It goes down real fast if the panels aren’t kept clean as well.

CNC Doc
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 1, 2021 12:09 pm

I just wanted to jump in with a quick comment. Solar panels lose their efficiency over time. Good ones are about 1% per year. Wind turbines have mechanical issues as well. It’s not a plug and play solution. I have lived off of both and had a diesel generator for back up.
I won’t live to 2050. So I don’t really care about being right or wrong. Humanity will be snuffed off the face of the earth long before anything like climate change will come to fruition, which it will not, because it is a scam. There are no known parameters of the amount of CO2 the atmosphere can hold and what levels result in what results, nor is there a control or a test. The “real-time” data is an extrapolation of averages based on suppositions based on theory. If I own 2 cars and drive 1, the data is that I am producing twice the CO2 emissions of a single car owner.
I also believe that blaming “Climate change” for destructive weather phenomenon or as they said about Hurricane Harvey, “Hurricane Hrvey wouldn’t have had so much associated rainfall with it had it not been for climate change.” What?
When can they predict the weather accurately? Where is the scientific proof that allows any credence at all to a statement that establishes a fact by saying what “could have been?” (For instance: “If he hadn’t farted in his bath, the tsunami wouldn’t have been so tall.”)
I don’t know how people became so ignorant and the media got so bold as to get people to believe all this rubbish.
But I see at least 4 more years of it.
At least the don’t call it “Global Warming” anymore. It fell out of vogue I suppose by apoplexy.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Case
January 27, 2021 2:41 pm

Not 100% of the land in solar farm can be used for solar panels.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 4:00 pm

Unless they are located at the equator, the panels have to be tilted to the south (from a north hemisphere perspective). Because of this, there has to be a gap between the panels, otherwise the northern panel will be partially shaded by the southern one. The further north, the bigger the gap has to be.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 4:04 pm

Hard to put voltage regulators, current combiners, etc in the shade of the solar panels. They would cook. So you need a place for those among the array. Nor can you haul replacement parts into a tightly packed solar installation, you need to leave access roads, storage, etc – just like an apple orchard can’t have the trees packed all together, you wouldn’t be able to get the harvesting equipment in among the trees. You’ll need all kinds of workspace for assembling panels, repairing panels, repairing the mountings for the panels, rebuilding motors if you have an articulated installation to follow the sun. Depending on the size and weight of the panels themselves as well as the infrastructure you might even need to leave room between panels to get a forklift into place around the panels. I could probably come up with more but wifey just called me for supper!

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 4:16 pm

Mark’s point is that your estimate for solar panel area is a lower-bound on the amount of land necessary to produce the required power, and not able to be used for other purposes, such as growing food or even recreation.

Steve Case
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2021 3:44 pm

Zackly what I wuz gonna say.

ColMosby
January 27, 2021 12:30 pm

“We can do that in a couple of ways. We could go all nuclear. In that case, we’d need to build, commission, and bring on-line a brand-new 2.1 GW nuclear power plant every single day from now until 2050. Easy, right?”
I hate to see such ignorance from both global warmists and us folk. Think Small Modular molten salt reactors, sized 399 too 500 MW, which are built in factories and installed on land which need very little preparation and very little, oor no water for cooling. These cost about half as much as a conventional light water reactor and produce power at a levelized cost of 4 cents per kWhr, It would be easy, worldwide with dozens of factories, to produce 1000 MW of capacity per day. These SMRs are in development as we speak and look to commercialize before the end of the decade.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  ColMosby
January 27, 2021 1:03 pm

The operative phrase in your post is “These SMRs are in development”. When they are in production then start cheerleading for them. And if they aren’t available till the end of the decade, 2030, that only gives us 5 years to meet Biden’s 2035 goal.

As Willis calculated it would take at least twice 1000MW per day. 1000MW is 1GW. Willis calculated 2GW would be needed per day. And if you cut the interval down to 5 years from 30 years you would need about 12GW per day! More than 10 times what you estimate.

And this doesn’t even count the installation time to put them on site, turned on, and producing!

Eric Harpham
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 3:01 pm

For comparison Hinkley Point, the UKs newest , nearly built , nuclear power station was planned in 2008 and will be in operation in 2023. It will produce 3260 megawatts.

Based on your figures and our usage the UK needs a 2.1Gwatt nuclear power station built every 45 days until 2050 to meet the target of zero carbon.

There are some very optimistic, mathematically challenged people out there and in government.

Richard Page
Reply to  ColMosby
January 27, 2021 2:17 pm

Ho hum time for the adverts again.

John F Hultquist
Reply to  ColMosby
January 27, 2021 2:29 pm

ColMosby,
Once again: [Let’s start calling this John’s 10 to the 4th rule.]
Get 10 producing and on the grid;
get another 100 in the hook-up stage;
another 1,000 financed and permitted;
and 10,000 approved by the polities wherein located.

Someone might listen to you when you get 10^4.

MarkW
Reply to  ColMosby
January 27, 2021 2:42 pm

They are in development as we speak, and have been for the last 20 years, and will be for at least the next 20 years.

Let us know when they finally get out of development and somebody has decided to spend their own money to build one of these fantasy power plants.

DMA
January 27, 2021 12:31 pm

Keep in mind the work force for this construction has to come from somewhere. We have about 12000 from the KXL layoff and there are all of us nonessential workers that are now unemployed but if the corona scare ever is allowed to dwindle some of us will want our old jobs. It shouldn’t take much training to teach unemployed waitresses to set turbin blades 900 feet above ground or operate electric draglines in the mines we will need to put together these generators. Come to think of it maybe “more impossible” is the correct term for this green adventure.

alastair gray
Reply to  DMA
January 27, 2021 12:56 pm

RIP USA Will the last yank out please turn off the lights? Wait What lights they went off years ago

Richard Page
Reply to  alastair gray
January 27, 2021 2:20 pm

Either just before or shortly after that happens, we’ll be doing the same in Blighty. Of course as we leave we’ll be able to wave across at wee Jimmie Krankie stomping around her new kingdom!

Reply to  DMA
January 27, 2021 11:50 pm

“…teach unemployed waitresses to set turbine blades…” We already know what happens when you redeploy waitresses into jobs that actually demand practical skills and intellectual labour. Can anyone say AOC?

bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 12:39 pm

Your math isn’t the problem Willis, your logic stinks. In each of your calculations, you assume that the particular technology (nuke, solar, wind) replaces all fossil fuel. That assumption is flatly incorrect. The reality is that it will be a mixture of the technologies you mentioned. You also must calculate efficiency gains that can be implemented.
.
Logic, don’t leave home without it.

Last edited 1 month ago by Willis Eschenbach
Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 1:07 pm

Uh, that *is* what Biden just said on TV today. Where were you? 2035 – the Dems date for eliminating all fossil fuel power generation. Along with 500,000 charging stations and no new ICE cars.

EXACTLY what efficiency gains do you expect?

Of course 500,000 new charging stations will barely handle NYC. With 60M rural population, each needing a charging station, I wonder where Biden is going to tell them to charge their EV’s?

MarkW
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 2:50 pm

People in flyover land won’t need charging stations, they can all just ride horses.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 3:19 pm

There are 2 million cars registered in NYC. Don’t you think one charging station for four cars is too much?

Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 3:36 pm

Many, many of those autos are parked on the street in NYC. I can just see people stringing out heavy extension cords to the nearest lamppost only to find out someone stole them all overnight for the copper!

How many times do you suppose that will happen before the people in NYC have a hissy fit?

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 4:21 pm

1) Use aluminum wire instead of copper
2) Do it like they do in Canada: comment image (for block warmers)

Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:27 pm

OMG! You ever tried to wind up a heavy aluminum cable?

Have you *ever* seen the on-street parking in NYC or even St. Louis. It isn’t drive-in parking, it’s parallel ON-STREET parking. Many (probably most) on-street places inn NYC or St. Louis don’t have parking meters. Are you going to tear up all the streets and sidewalks to put in charging stations? Do you have even the smallest clue as to what that would cost?

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:04 pm

Aluminum is no where near as good a conductor as is copper, so you are going to lose a lot more of your energy in the cable.
Aluminum is also expensive.
How do the thieves tell that the cable is aluminum and not copper?

KT66
Reply to  MarkW
January 28, 2021 3:00 pm

Aluminum production also requires a bunch of energy.

Writing Observer
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 7:38 pm

A block heater for a Tesla sized ICE vehicle consumes about 3 kWh over four hours. A Tesla 3 battery requires 40 kWh to reach half capacity (ignoring all charging losses). So you have to push out somewhere between 12 and 25 times the power over your “charging network.”

Much more expensive installation.

Mark A Luhman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 9:54 pm
  1. Betham456 a block heater does take power but is consumption is minor compared to what and electric car needs. Oh by the way I never lived in Canada but parking lot like this are common where I grew up and lived most of my adult life. Also battery driven car will not work a 0 F let alone – 50 F. 50 below a temperature I have to drive in once. -20 many times.
MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:07 pm

What percentage of those cars have off street parking? You don’t know, do you?

Tim Gorman
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2021 4:15 pm

Of course she doesn’t.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 4:22 pm

Doesn’t matter where they are parked

Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:34 pm

Of course it matters! If there is no electrical cable running down the sidewalk or street then one would have to be laid down and fed from somewhere. When you are tearing up the length of a block in a residential area depending on on-street parking WHERE ARE THE RESIDENTS GOING TO PARK? Now imagine doing that in a large city, block after block of pissed off residents screaming at the mayor and the press about the inconvenience!

And I can’t even imagine how many other services would get accidentally knocked out of service over and over again, telephone, cable TV, internet, etc. It would be a nationwide nightmare – and the Democrats to blame.

If the GOP want to win back urban and suburban voters this would be a prime policy screw-up to use in doing so! I almost hope the Dems try to push something like this through!

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:06 pm

With that one statement you have proven yourself to be someone who doesn’t have a clue as to what you are talking about.

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 1:21 pm

“Logic, don’t leave home without it.”

..

You left yours in the GARBAGE bin decades ago….. poor tyke !

Doesn’t matter what you PRETEND will replace fossil fuels.

I can’t happen WITHOUT USING FOSSIL FUELS.

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 1:25 pm

“efficiency gains”

ROFLMAO

You can’t get efficiency gains from using the MOST INEFFICIENT forms of energy supply !

Your total lack of any rational logical thought process is quite bizarre.

Seems that “logic” is something you never had, and never will have.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  fred250
January 27, 2021 3:09 pm

Better insulation in a building results is consuming less energy to heat/cool said building.

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 3:21 pm

Can’t make insulation without FOSSIL FUELS, idiot !

I’m so glad that YOU are offering TO PAY for insulation in every home.

And I notice the dumb attempt to change the subject from energy supply to something else

FEEBLE !!!

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  fred250
January 27, 2021 4:25 pm

The savings in heating/cooling bills pays for the insulation in less than 5 years.

Vermiculite and cellulose can be made without fossil fuels.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:43 pm

Really? Vermiculite can be made without fossil fuels? Do you actually know what vermiculite is and how it is made? Vermiculite insulation is not naturally occurring. It has to be processed.

Do you know what cellulose insulation is? It is shredded paper or denim treated with some kind of chemical. First, what powers the shredders? Fossil fuels, maybe? And how are the chemicals made? Bet it takes fossil fuels!

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:07 pm

Depends entirely on the house and the climate.
Typical progressive, actually does believe that one size fits all. And if it doesn’t government will make it fit.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 4:09 pm

I remember one poster awhile back who was convinced that the amount of energy saved by installing LED lights would be more than enough to power a complete conversion to electric cars.

superdog683
Reply to  MarkW
February 2, 2021 12:46 pm

it seems small but the new led lights are amazing,
good light
low energy usage
and if you live in hot climate like i do south Florida change every single light in the house and the LED generate almost no heat, this lowers the a/c bill because the A/C does not have to remove the heat from the bulbs.
i also have r50 and some r70 in attic, 2900 sq feet high ceilings etc. A/C on 78 with a newer unit
new seals on windows and doors house built 1998.
my elec. bill is 90-110 per month so insulation. and good construction fix-it skills make major difference.

and i am a right wing non environmentalist, conservatives actually do things, left wing nut jobs just talk.
i will share my discussion/lecture from my left wing neighbor. i in my hybrid Camry an getting a lecture from him in his extended Chevy suburban while he is having a picnic and filling five garbage containers with trash and recyclables, we have separate containers but he can not be bothered to separate. and he then complains his 14 year old a/c unit quit again which cost $400/month to run so he just got 3 window units for now to supplement.
also note he has 150-200k income so absolutely no reason for this stupidity.

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 3:39 pm

Making insulation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy__ovlT0TQ

Cannot be done without FOSSIL FUELS

100% mining, gas, and fossil fuels.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  fred250
January 27, 2021 4:27 pm

What is the EROEI from insulation? (calculating the return as “saved” energy)

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 5:22 pm

YAWN

CANNOT be made without fossil fuels

What part of that don’t you comprehend !!!

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:09 pm

As I pointed out before, most houses built since the 70’s, already have adequate insulation. The benefit from adding more is pretty small.

superdog683
Reply to  MarkW
February 2, 2021 1:05 pm

BS only houses built last 10 years have GOOD insulation. even now builders cheat and insulate good but use super cheap windows and doors because 90% of buyers have no idea the difference from good doors and windows to super cheap just have to look pretty. i was fixing a 3 million dollar home last year was there just to fix a window and some kitchen pot lights. 14 ten hour days later i was done, unbelievable the many things they cheated on. it depends on the builder some good, some bad. (note the windows are so cheap 1/3 do not open and close, its florida so people never use the windows so they do not know, first window i open fell right out of the frame and smashed on the roof below.
i have dropped utilities 6-8 houses from 400-600 dollars a month to 100-150 per month. i used to have a couple rentals and buy and sell a house now and then.
and for 2 weeks work and $5,000 i can drop the utilities $4,000 a year. (note that is if decent windows) if the house has total crap windows then things get more expensive, doors are cheap and easy and give big bang for the buck, if you have crappy ill fitting doors you will be surprized how much cold air comes in on a 15 degree day up north.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 3:42 pm

Airtight buildings are also a nightmare for those who live and work in them. And they must be air tight or the heating and cooling units have to draw in outside air and exchange inside air. So what does the extra insulation buy you?

My parents ran into this a long time ago. They had vinyl siding put on with extra insulation, had the walls filled with foam, and about 3ft of cellulose added in the attic. After about a week they had to start leaving the front and back doors open in the dead of winter because the house got so stuffy!

They never added it up but I question still today if it actually saved them anything. They *did* finally buy a high efficiency furnace/air conditioner and I know that save them a lot of money. The insulation? I have my doubts.

fred250
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 4:12 pm

Quite bizarre isn’t it.

These morons seek to have air tight houses to make them more efficient and hence decrease atmospheric CO2…

…. not realising that this will cause a build up of EVIL CO2 levels inside the house.

SO DUMB !!

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  fred250
January 27, 2021 4:30 pm
fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 5:27 pm

WOW, look at all that STEEL and PLASTIC !!!

Now where does that come from, ?

Do you know ?

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:10 pm

Powered by electric fans. There goes most of your energy savings.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2021 7:37 pm

Air exchangers don’t actually provide *any* energy savings. They are a cost over and above. You still have to heat and cool the air inside the house. An air exchanger won’t change that.

MarkW
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 28, 2021 7:16 am

Air exchangers also only recover a portion of the heat in the outgoing air.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 27, 2021 4:29 pm
fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 5:25 pm

Now were is all the metal, ducts, mechanics, electronics etc for these going to come from, moron

So glad that YOU are offering to PAY for all of these. !

Last edited 1 month ago by fred250
MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:11 pm

Typical progressive, never bothers to actually think through the things it is proposing.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 7:25 pm

It’s a 156watt unit that will probably need to be run 24/7/365. A cost over and above your heating and cooling bill – remember this doesn’t provide any actual HVAC input to the home, it’s only an air exchanger.

$800 plus probably $1000 for installations. $1800 for someone on a fixed income.

At $0.13 per KWh this thing will cost about $20 per month to run.

You *really* don’t know much about living poor on a fixed income, do you?

superdog683
Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 2, 2021 1:32 pm

a, almost impossible to make an old house :air tight”
b. there are formulas, setups and construction codes for all of these concerns, which you are not aware and did not do.
the house
the insulation
the windows
the doors
the furnace/a/c or heat pump
the air circulation (yes if house is perfect need some re circulation)
the type and size and length of duct work
the humidity, my first guess is you kept old furnace used a bunch of insulation and humidity was way outts wack.
a professional can calculate all these factors in 2-4 hours for $200-400 dollars, if you ever do it again it will be the best money you spend, because you can really fu@k a house up when you improvise major HVAC changes.
even worse if have a high humidity problem, i have seen people destroy a house, turn into a mold night mare in one year, many times the mold starts out of sight behind the walls and by the time it is obvious and visable the house is ruined.
really minor stuff can cause issue, i used plastic then insulation in part of an attic, it was installed correct. but didnt matter that corner was wind area and condensation formed, i noticed it a week later removed plastic and used tyvec instead. now i just spend the extra money for tyvec always b/c never know when need the extra margin of error. i have seen walls that took years to build up condensation say from one cold water pipe. tyvec will breath a little and let those small condensation issues resolve.

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:07 pm

True, and totally irrelevant to whether or not energy comes from fossil fuel or not.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 3:21 pm

How about you add in geothermal, tidal, and biomass?

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:04 pm

Geothermal only works when its near the surface.. eg Iceland, New Zealand

Biomass? gotta grow it, the CHOP IT DOWN and transport it, lots of CO2

….. and its messy and polluting to burn.

Some third world countries use LOTS of biomass in the form of dung, for cooking heat.

Tidal is a non-starter in every experiment so far, plus it damages natural ocean life and habitats.

NONE of these can provide the huge amount of RELIABLE energy required by a modern society. They are only ever just tiny niche supplies.

That modern society is what the socialist/marxists WANT TO DESTROY

But remember.. YOU are also part of the modern society.
(or could be if you wanted to)

As New Mexico is starting to find out ..

GREEN virtue-seeking…. DESTROYS.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  fred250
January 27, 2021 4:33 pm

Geothermal heating and cooling installations can be installed almost anywhere: https://www.epa.gov/rhc/geothermal-heating-and-cooling-technologies#:~:text=Geothermal%20Heating%20and%20Cooling%20Technologies%201%20Ground%20Source,…%203%20Deep%20and%20Enhanced%20Geothermal%20Systems.

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 5:29 pm

TINY NICHE !

Ground source heating deplete the ground’s energy, becoming inefficient after time

Again.. so glad that YOU are offering to PAY for all these

STOP TELLING OTHER PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO !!

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:14 pm

Geothermal heat pumps aren’t really geo-thermal. The name is little more than a marketing gimmick. The reality is that it costs a lot of money and requires each house to have a large yard to accommodate the coils. They are also useless for apartments and multi-story buildings.
Gee whiz, it’s almost as if you were doing a school project in how to prove to the world that you have never actually thought about any of the ideas you are proposing.

Last edited 1 month ago by MarkW
superdog683
Reply to  MarkW
February 2, 2021 1:41 pm

the big downer about heat pumps is when they leak,

if get lucky and install in a moderate climate area and never get a leak could do ok.
but extreme weather kills the usefulness
and a leak is one of the worst things you will ever deal with.
although new technology may make finding a leak easy, but without high tech sensor technology finding and fixing a leak is night mare.

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:10 pm

geothermal is pretty much tapped out everywhere except Iceland.
Tidal is a myth.
Biomass, not enough to make a difference, unless you want to start cutting down virgin forests.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2021 4:34 pm

You are clueless MarkW, see my post/link above to fred250

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 5:31 pm

You poor empty sack of ignorant mindless rhetoric.

Live in your own FANTASY LA-LA-LAND world, fool.

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 6:16 pm

So the guy who’s every claim has been refuted over and over again, wants to claim that others are clueless.
Fred has shredded every one of your claims.

Curious George
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:24 pm

Yesterday was the time to start on those three … So far, not a resounding success.

Richard Page
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 2:29 pm

It doesn’t really matter if you use a mixture of technologies – do the maths and see that there is no possible solution. As to ‘efficiency gains’ – wind power is essentially technology thousands of years old and was abandoned for being a dead end technology – there are no more efficiency gains to be squeezed out. Most of these technologies are similar – they’re at the limits of their usefulness and just can’t be any more efficient than they are right now.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Richard Page
January 27, 2021 3:11 pm

You neglect to envision new technologies, like https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/tidal-power.php

fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 3:22 pm

ROFLMAO

Tidal power has been trialed and FAILED MASSIVELY

The amount possible is totally insignificant.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  fred250
January 27, 2021 4:35 pm
fred250
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 5:33 pm

TINY, NICHE.. just like geothermal

Exactly as I said

Thanks for the confirmation bozo. !

Now go and scrape up some cow dung so your mummy can cook your evening meal.

MarkW
Reply to  bethan456@gmail.com
January 27, 2021 4:12 pm

The places with large tides require harmonic oscillations to get the high tides.
Add tidal power the mix and the harmonic oscillations disappear.
Every where else, a couple of feet of change in sea level twice a day isn’t enough to power anything meaningful. Not to mention all the problems with salt water corrosion and the cost of protecting your investment from winter storms.

fred250
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 27, 2021 5:44 pm

No Willis, she is DELUSIONAL.

She needs to be woken up to that FACT. !