Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
People keep talking about how as electric cars become cheaper, more people will use them. But what they keep ignoring is that they are totally useless for long trips.
The Climate Spokeswoman for the UK PM Boris Johnson, Allegra Stratton, recently let the cat out of the bag when she revealed why even she doesn’t use an EV (electric vehicle):
“Net-zero is the glide path. What we have to be doing more quickly – the science is clear – we have to be changing our carbon emissions output right now so that we can stop temperature increase by 2030.
She explained that she doesn’t want to stop to charge her car when she visits elderly relatives “200,250 miles away”.
She claimed that she visits family around the UK, including Scotland, north Wales, the Lake District and Gloucester.
Because of this, she said: “They’re all journeys that I think would be at least one quite long stop to charge.”
(Gotta admit, I have to admire the otherworldly idiocy of anyone who seriously claims that we can “stop temperature increase by 2030”. Here’s why that is ungrounded madness … but I digress.)
Now, here in Nowherica, 250 miles is considered an easy morning’s commute … a map of Texas versus Europe shows why.
So I got to thinking … just how long a charging stop would that be to go another 250 miles? Me, I drive a 2016 Ram Ecodiesel pickup truck with about a 500 mile range, although the new ones have about a 1,000 mile range. And I can “recharge” it for another 500 miles in about five minutes at the pump.
Looking for information on this question, I see that the figure in question is called “RPH”, which stands for “Range Per Hour”. This is how many miles of range you get per hour of charging. I find a site called How Long Does It Take To Charge An Electric Car that says:
Range per hour varies depending on how efficient your car is. Small full battery electric cars (e.g. Renault Zoe) are the most efficient and get 30 miles of range per hour charging at 7kW. The biggest full battery electric cars (e.g. Audi e-tron Quattro) are heavier and get ~20 miles of range per hour at 7kW.
YIKES! That’s the charge rate for the standard commercial chargers. I can see why the UK Climate Spokesbabe doesn’t want to drive an EV. If you’re stopping to recharge your Audi e-tron for another 250 miles, instead of the five minutes it takes me to recharge my diesel pickup, it will take you twelve and a half hours to recharge.
But heck, don’t worry. Here’s Edmund King, the head of the UK Automobile Association. He says that drivers should take a break after 200 miles of driving.
“Drivers covering long distances should take regular breaks to maintain safety, so this is the ideal time to charge the car. Range anxiety will continue to decrease with more chargers and improved range on new models.”
Well, that makes perfect sense. Just stop for a quick ten-hour lunch, and you’re ready for your next 200 miles. And Elon Musk, winner of the Olympic Gold Medal For Getting The Most US Taxpayer Subsidies, makes much the same point regarding the new “long-range” Tesla Model S:
Musk said that he doesn’t see a need for an electric vehicle with a range of more than 400 miles:
“What we are seeing is that once you have a range above 400 miles, more range doesn’t really matter. There are essentially zero trips above 400 miles where the driver doesn’t need to stop for restroom, food, coffee, etc. anyway.”
The comment was criticized for not accounting for the fact that a 400-mile range is closer to 250-300 miles in colder climates and depending on the conditions.
Heck, yes, I often need to stop for ten hours for restroom, food, and coffee …
Call me crazy, but with the Tesla Model S going for a cool $74,490 including ten-hour restroom breaks, I reckon I’m gonna stick with my Ram Ecodiesel.
w.
… h/t to the irrepressible James Delingpole for a couple of quotes …
[UPDATE] Several commenters have pointed out that there are faster chargers out there, that can charge at 100 or even 200 miles or range per hour. This would cut the charge time in the middle of a 600-mile trip down to thre or even one and a half hours … in theory, of course. In practice, the numbers somehow never seem to match up to theory.
But heck, yes, I often need to stop for a couple hours for restroom, food, and coffee …
Oh and don’t forget that IONITI in Europe charges 0.69 euros per KWh so twice or three times as expensive as my modest French diesel at 52 miles per English gallon
The 7 KW charger is for overnight charging. The chargers you use on the road are superchargers which gives 150 to 250 KW.
i have used electric cars in my daily commute since 2014. Since the range in newer models have increased, we now also use it on long road trips.
The range on my model, the smallest and cheapest Tesla, is 614 km. Like most people I seldom drive more than 300 km from home. Home charging covers the need for all shorter trips. On longer trips we often use destination charging. That is hotels/ motels which let you charge overnight.
Superchargers are for the rare exceptions. A recharge on a supercharger takes about 30 minutes. My experience is that most people do not use more than about 2 hours per year on superchargers, and that is time they need for rest and streching their legs anyway.
Like most people who have tried electric I will never go back to petrol. Electric vehicles are far superior in almost every aspect.
/Jan
How many hours would a charging time eat from your vacation trip to Italy?
If that was you main concern, wouldn’t you fly and rent?
Among other things, cost.
Good question. I have driven to Italy twice but that was before I went electric.
The distance from Oslo to Rome is 2500 km, but I recommend to start wirh the luxurious car ferry to Kiel. The distance from Kiel to Rome is 1777 km.
For that you need four stops, or approximately 2 – 3 hours combined if you only use superchargers. If you only use destination chargers on hotels and motels you wont spend any extra time at all.
However, if you really want to drive on vacation to Italy I would recommend to have at least a three week plan. Use a week each way between Kiel and Rome to see some of the sights along the route and use destination charging each night.
“Electric vehicles are far superior in almost every aspect.” except they are nuclear, coal, gas or oil powered.
Thanks pigs in space. That comment usually comes from those who see no problems with coal fired power plants. Coal is only a problem if they power electric vehicles it seems.
My assessment is that we need to de-carbonize the power production. The highest priority is it to get rid of coal. That will both reduce CO2 emissions and particulate pollution by a lot, and it will eliminate most of the mercury pollution from primary sources.
The cheap Tesla in the US has a maximum range of about 450 km (278 mil). It’s about 250 miles from my house to my favorite vacation spot that we visit 2 to 3 times a year. There is one supercharger 161 miles from my destination. My wife and I used to drive 470 miles every three weeks to visit my daughter out of state. All this driving is/was done winter and summer with a range of -20F to +100F. I think I’ll stick with my ICE vehicles.
I don’t understand why electric vehicles are not built with kinetic chargers?
Also, does overuse overheat the batteries, leading to meltdowns and/or fires?
They do.
All electric cars convert braking energy to electricity, and that is a form of kinetic charger.
We could also use the energy in shock absorbers, but I guess that the energy there is too small to make any difference.
I have an answer to range anxiety for the U.S. drivers. If we divide up the U.S. into 500 smaller countries all the vehicle trips will be shorter. Presto!
Let me know what else I can help with Willis.
So simple!
Willis,
You base your figures on 7 kW charging. That is about the slowest rate available except for a simple mains plug (about 3 kW in the UK). It is normal for a domestic charger where the car can be charged overnight so the slow rate is a non-issue.
Public chargers are much faster. Over 100 kW is common. Iirc someTesla units go up to 250 kW. There are chargers coming into use which can charge at 350 kW – although it has to be said that not many cars can take that rate for now.
You might care to take a look at the various threads about all aspects of the EV experience on here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=247
There’s quite a lot of chat about hydrogen cars as well.
Not true in the slighest. I’m using figures for Level II commercial chargers.
Yes, Tesla does make “Superchargers”, but they are few and far between. And even those will require an hour and a half to two hours per 200 miles of range depending on your EV … still FAR too slow to be practical. Look at the backup at your typical gas station where it takes 5 minutes per fillup.
Now multiply that by 20 or so for EVs, and you’ll spend far more time waiting for a charge than actually charging …
Here’s an article about a half-mile long line of Teslas waiting for a Supercharger … so please, let’s use real numbers and not theoretical best-case scenarios.
w.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger
Supercharger stalls have a connector to supply electrical power at maximums of 72 kW, 150 kW or 250 kW.[4]
You described the low end of the chargers, not superchargers. The largest of the Tesla Model S batteries is 100kWh and so the 72kW charger can fully charge it in your hour and a half to 2 hours. That’s more than 200 miles range.
The high end superchargers will charge it in the time it takes you to go to the toilet and have a coffee and a stretch which is what every responsible driver ought to do every few hundred miles at least.
Like it or not Teslas (and electric vehicles in general) are becoming ever more popular and superchargers will become more common.
Those high end superchargers if used much will degrade the battery life much faster and increase chance of a superfire.
do you have proof of your statement?
Sorry but you are overlooking DC fast charging which is a different ball game and by far the best option for charging on the road. It’s far from theoretical being in general use by the charging networks. AC/Level 2 is only really suitable for home charging overnight or a brief top-up while shopping, for example.
I’m no EV fan but I do think they have a place as another fuel option which is particularly well-suited to local use and in-town driving because of the reduction in street-level pollution and noise.
Making EVs compulsory for all is just more green madness-on-stilts.
DC fast chargers are on the order of 100 – 200 miles per hour. Still an hour and a quarter to two and a half hours for 250 miles. And that is ONLY if you are the one person wanting a charge … the lines for the Tesla Superchargers are legendary.
w.
You keep saying this and it’s wrong. A 250kW charger charging a big battery that is 100kWh is well less than an hour and that’s more than 200 miles.
Tim, you’ve got to learn to distinguish between theory and the real world. Plus, 250 kW Superchargers are rara avis … and they don’t work with 90% of the electric cars on the road.
w.
250kW chargers aren’t theory. Neither is the demand for EVs.
Supply and demand is driving the charging network and the demand is increasing enormously. Add to that the government subsidies to improve it and your argument disappears.
You can only “fast charge” so much, it degrades the batteries. This is being overlooked by those that keep bringing up “shortest possible” charge times, and also ignores the wait time for a couple of EVs in front of you at the “supercharger” means about 45 minutes wasted before your “fast charging” even begins.
Maybe some of the EV proponents should study queuing theory.
One has to run the numbers to understand the enormity of the situation if everyone is driving a EV.
I just think of the thousands of cars stopping every hour for food and fuel at any of the roadside rest stops on the major highways. Now imagine the cars were are all electric each one needing to charge for at least one hour. I wonder how long the lineup would be or how many 40 Kw charging stations they would need to process that many cars and trucks in one hour. Keeping in mind I can fuel up my 29 year old truck in less than five minutes for a more than 500 mile range. Even 500 chargers would not be sufficient. With 500 chargers and a 20% availability of the wind generators the 500 would require at least 67 wind generators for each rest stop on every highway. The numbers are staggering.
MB:
Yep. Here in Phoenix, AZ area during the 2019 Thanksgiving weekend there was a 2 plus hour
wait just to get hooked up to a public Tesla charger . The local news had pictures of the queue for all the out of town crowd [ presumably trying to drive back to California ].
Nobody will need go to Disney World or Disney Land again once they’re driving EVs – they’ll have already gotten their fill (pardon the pun) of the “waiting in line for hours” experience.
“But what they keep ignoring is that they are totally useless for long trips.” – article
OK, that ties it for me. Not going to fly anywhere, EVER, and the trains don’t run to my sister’s home town so that lets that out. If there were still reliable passenger service by train, I’d happily take the train to visit her a couple times a year, but nope: passenger trains have been reduced to commuter rail from/to the suburbs and only certain “major” cities. And I really did like riding the rails, especially if I could just sit in the dining car and watch the cornfields go by.
Sorry, don’t mane to wax nostalgic for Them There Olden Times, but they really did have their benefits.
You have a problem with the flying cattle cars?
“<i>And I really did like riding the rails, especially if I could just sit in the dining car and watch the cornfields go by.</i>
Years ago I rode the Santa Fe from Chicago to the Bay area. About 8 years later “City of New Orleans”, written by Steve Goodman, chronicled the demise of this fine way to travel.
If you rode the rails, you might enjoy my piece entitled “Freighted With Memories” … my favorite way to travel.
w.
Had a read of that old post, Willis. That flat car you called “Gertie” was a “bulkhead flat car;” at some point, the railroads slapped a 45mph speed limit on any train with an empty bulkhead flat car on it, due to precisely the “handling” behavior you described. The violent nature of their empty handling at higher speeds caused trains to derail (reason for the subsequently applied speed limit), so you were fortunate to have survived your “bucking bronco” ride on “Gertie” in more ways than one.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/02/16/freighted-with-memories/#comment-983521
As for Claude Harvey’s comment (linked), no those cars didn’t need mismatched wheels, they all handled horribly when empty, because of the heavy steel bulkhead at each end and the light deck in between them. It was a handling characteristic of those cars generally, and they were indeed downright dangerous when empty.
Sorry for the OT stuff, but I couldn’t add comments to the old post.
Thanks, AGW. Considering the things I’ve done, I consider myself the luckiest man on the planet to still be on this side of the grass … I can testify that I can’t think of a time I was more scared.
w.
Dunno… I didn’t invent “range per hour”, which is good, but just reused “miles per hour”.
7 kW electrical × [3 to 4 mi/kWh] = 20 to 30 miles per hour.
A 75 W charger, proportionately more … 200 to 300 miles per hour.
A 5 gallon-per-minute kind-of-on-the-slow-end gas pump ..
… 5 gpm × [15 to 40 mpg] × 60 min/hr
= 4,500 to 12,000 miles per hour.
Range per hour.
Whatever.
And that kind of puts the whole thing into perspective, doesn’t it? pumping ‘benzine’ (very old fashioned term or petrol or gasoline) is roughly 30× faster than a 75 kW super-charging station, and likewise, roughly 300× faster than the 7 kW at-home charger.
GoatGuy
I don’t even like having to stop and recharge my vibrator, much less my car.
Spokane Washington to Grand Forks North Dakota, northern route. 1,113 miles.
Zero Tesla superchargers.
The US is a big place.
w.
I checked the Southern route on Google maps and “added superchargers”. They’re all the way along that route. A dozen of them. In fact there were more Superchargers showing than gas stations.
So what you’re really saying is that there isn’t complete coverage yet for all possible routes one may take but market forces will add them as they’re needed and become profitable.
TimTheToolMan
Nope. If that were the case, we taxpayers wouldn’t be paying for the 75,000 EV chargers in the latest so-called “infrastructure” bill, because they’d be added by “market forces”.
Why is it that every time you green geniuses come up with a new plan to save us from some invisible danger, it requires that you stick your grubby hands into my wallet and take my money to pay for it?
That scam is gettin’ old …
w.
Your government has determined that it is necessary to move away from fossil fuels. We both agree that doing it because of climate change is a bad reason.
However you made an analysis of the time and difficulty to switch from fossil fuels to alternative energy and showed it was damned near impossible in about 30 years.
Unfortunately you cant see from your own analysis how hard it will be to do it over the next 100 years where we both agree the earth will be struggling with finding and producing fossil fuels to keep up with the demand.
And what of the poor when there is actual scarcity of supply?
I do not agree with that claim in the slightest. I showed that there is 53 years of proven reserves of oil left. However:
No need to wait 100 years for that. You can see that happening today, where the stupidity of our government in following the sick “green” agenda has driven gas prices through the roof.
w.
“I do not agree with that claim in the slightest.”
You did when we discussed it before. And 53 years of oil (if that’s true) isn’t 100 years. It’s a very long way from 100 years. And doesn’t allow for growth either.
“No need to wait 100 years for that. You can see that happening today”
There is a big difference between artificial higher prices and actual supply shortages.
TimTheToolMan August 8, 2021 2:06 pm
Tim, this is exactly why I ask people to QUOTE MY EXACT WORDS.
We were talking about the effect of higher fuel prices on the poor, not the cause of the higher prices. But nice try.
w.
“Tim, this is exactly why I ask people to QUOTE MY EXACT WORDS.”
Here are your exact words
from this thread
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/01/27/bright-green-impossibilities/
When there is no supply constraint, governments can (and do) subsidise the poor and the poor can (and do) buy energy with the subsidies. That’s not an option when there simply isn’t enough energy.
Thanks, Tim, but me saying
is NOT the same as
I said NOTHING about how we’d be “struggling with finding and producing fossil fuels to keep up with demand”.
Instead, I said “the market will take care of it.” Not one word about struggling to keep up with demand.
I knew before I responded to you that I’d likely regret it, and sure enough, here you are misrepresenting what I said.
I’m gonna pass on further interaction with you. As I knew and sadly ignored before starting, debate with you falls under the First Rule Of Pig Wrestling:
Pass,
w.
Total cognitive dissonance there.
Actually we don’t both agree that we will be struggling to find fossil fuels in 100 years. 300 to 400 years is much more likely.
Even if it is 100 years, there is no need to force feed your preferred solution on the masses at this time. Wait 60 or 70 years, and then use whatever technology has been developed in the mean time to solve the problem.
As to the poor, your solution is to make driving expensive now, so we wont have to worry about it becoming expensive later. How generous of you.
What MarkW said …
w.
Its not my “solution” but I think you missed the point. When the market drives change its because demand exceeds supply.
Under those conditions, its not that energy is expensive, its actually constrained.
Lots of speculation there. “Moving from fossil fuels” is an idiotic notion at this point, since (1) there IS NO “alternative” in terms of transport (no, “electric cars” are not and will never be an “alternative” until you have electricity supplied to the vehicles by the roads or paths they operate on, since there is not enough in terms of raw materials for “batteries” to replace the ICE vehicles already in existence much less any future increase in numbers and the replacements of “battery packs” required of all those vehicles over time); (2) fossil fuels aren’t the cause of any problem at this point and supplies are plentiful, therefore the “need” to “move away” from them is nonexistent and should not be done by government edict; (3) the only “alternative” for electric generation, once fossil fuels are no longer available (which will probably not be for 10+ generations, given the known reserves of coal alone being sufficient for about 1,000 years) is nuclear, which poses some issues for non-nuclear powers and weapons proliferation, but is otherwise workable if the same idiots trying to cram worse-than-useless wind and solar down our throats will stop resisting its expansion.
You might as well suggest we let them starve today because one day there might not be enough food. Isn’t it more intelligent to use the fossil fuels until there is an actual, as opposed to an imaginary, “scarcity?”
Isn’t it more intelligent to use the fossil fuels until there is an actual, as opposed to an imaginary, “scarcity?”
Scarcity isn’t imaginary, its just a question of when. And a question of whether the fossil fuel energy can be produced quickly enough to meet demand.
Willis already did an analysis of what it would take to go from where we are today to a fossil fuel free 2050 and he showed it was pretty much impossible and certainly nowhere near what we are currently achieving.
Any plans to wait until 30 or 40 years before “the end of supply” whenever that is forecast, are going to have an enormous impact on society. Much bigger than what we’re experiencing now.
Maybe we’ll have fusion by then? I certainly hope so. But I wouldn’t count on it. Call me skeptical on that one.
“[Superchargers are] all the way along that route. A dozen of them. In fact there were more Superchargers showing than gas stations.”
Unable to reproduce your result – but see below.
A dozen within 100 miles of Grand Forks.
Apology: Google maps switched to Superchargers near Grand Forks.
On the route itself? It surprised me too but that’s what Google was showing at the resolution I has selected.
I’ve heard stories from my German friends about the German tourist who rented an RV (large self-driving camper for those who do not know) for a week to drive around the US. I’m not sure if the story is true, but it does point to the size of the US. If they want to hit Canada also, you’ve got an immense area.
Self driving? :-O
I instantly think of the story about someone who engaged the cruise control in his RV and went into the back to make a sandwich. Didn’t end well.
I doubt there is an EV that can outlast my endurance behind the wheel. In the Big truck I have did 715 miles without stopping in an 11 hour driving shift frequently before they came out with the rule that the driver has to take a 30 minute break within the first 8 hours of their driving shift. Now I often drive nearly 500 miles before I take that required 1/2 hour break.
three years ago in my Toyota FJ I drive straight through from Driggs, Idaho to Anderson, Indiana with only stops to fuel and use the bathroom. That’s over 1,500 miles.
When Iraq invaded Kuwait I was an SF medic. I was an instructor at SOMED which back then was the longest portion of the SF medic training. I was home on leave. When I saw that I told my parents who we were staying with, “we’re going to war” and the next morning cut my leave short and headed out. Drove Straight from Anderson, IN to San Antonio, TX. nment
For weeks I burned up the WATTS line trying to get an assignment to go. The other five SF medics at the course were doing the exact same thing. It go so bad that the Commanding General of US Army Health Services command under who we were serving, sent his adjutant down to our school house and got us together and told us to knock it off. The Commanding general says “your here to teach” and the only way your getting out of here is if you get orders signed by an General Officer that outranks him (He was a Major General),
So I watched as a bunch of reservists and NG types came through Ft, Sam Houston to train up and prepare to deploy and listened to some of them bitch about being called up!
I’m on holidays in southern Saskatchewan
Drove 7 hours Wednesday, another 6 yesterday, 6 tomorrow home to calgary
All on schedule when I want to go
The EVs and their charging is all well and good for early adopters, basically free riders
Eventually it all breaks down
Like those that put solar panels on their roof and crow about independence, but refuse to cut the utility lines
My craziest drive was from Tampa, FL to Las Vegas, NV nonstop. Never again.
Edmonton to Salt Lake City
That was plenty
Orlando, FL to Cedar Rapids, IA to Idaho Falls, ID. ~2500 miles over the course of 2 days, much of the way far exceeding the speed limit. LOL
Last week first trip I left out of the terminal in Anderson, IN for Marshal, MI. From there it was down to Jefferson in Southern, IN. Took a 10 hour break at the Loves at exit 16 off I-65 and then drove back to Anderson.
2nd trip from Anderson to Canton, MI where I was loaded with aluminum wheels for Nissan vehicles being manufactured in Canton, MS and back to Anderson.
3rd trip Anderson to Kansas City Kansas near the airport, there I dropped the trailer I had brought filled with Toyota service parts and then hooked to an empty trailer in a dock and pulled it out and dropped it. Then hooked to the trailer I had brought and put it in the dock, chocked it and put a jack stand under it’s nose. Then hooked up to the empty.
I took the empty to Unilever in Independence, MO and dropped it there and hooked to a trailer preloaded with spice tailings to be recycled. (They make Knorr dry soup mixes at the plant.} I then went to the TA truck stop at Oak Grove, MO, and took my 10 hour break and then at 02:30 local took off for Anderson.
Lately I have been keeping my truck well stocked with provisions because there are shortages and some restaurants closed at some of the truck stops due to lack of help or lack of shipments.
I did not fuel anywhere but at the Anderson, IN terminal all week. For the last trip I left Anderson with full tanks. When I got back I put 132 gallons in.
Mine was Tulsa to San Franciso. Straight through, alone, and it took 22 hours. I was exhausted when I arrived.
The best arguments come from knowledge and understanding and make the best case for the opposing argument while pointing out the issues. Your case is not that.
Are you genuinely ignorant of superchargers that can get appreciable percentage of the charge in well under an hour?
Your argument is about as convincing as an opposing argument that you need to walk to a gas station with a jerrycan every time your Ram Ecodiesal runs out.
Fast charging means greatly reduced battery life
Physics
And more chance of explosions and fires.
That you cannot put out
Oh good
Willis started this suggesting “But what they keep ignoring is that they are totally useless for long trips.”
And he’s right. If most of your travel was long trips then you wouldn’t put up with the inconveniences of charging today. However for the vast majority of people the long trips are rare enough that the argument is largely irrelevant.
I know several drivers who like me travel 50,000 kms every year on average and mostly on country roads and highways.
When I was working (new retired) our company cars were driven on average 30,000 kms every year, most city based but with country driving regularly.
Take taxi drivers as an example, they rack up huge numbers of kms but mostly its well within range of charging and superchargers. They nearly never get rides that stretch battery range and put them in a remote location.
Taxi cabs are usually 24-hour day operated, at least for 16-hours including changes of driver in shifts.
Having to wait hours for a full recharge would be a cost penalty for the owner and the drivers. And an 80 per cent recharge in up to maybe one hour is also a nuisance compared to liquid refills.
In my experience taxi cabs have very high distance readings per year.
“an 80 per cent recharge in up to maybe one hour”
Its possible to do that in less than half an hour and possibly as little as 15 mins depending on the battery capacity in the EV. I expect even taxi drivers need the occasional break.
EVs are cheaper to run so that’s a major consideration too.
Conveniently ignoring, once again, that “rapid charging” reduces battery life and you therefore can’t use those “quick charge” times as if they are the normal routine.
Cheaper to run because you don’t pay road taxes. Burns me up my brother boasting about how cheap his car is to run. Can’t wait for the time when the equivalent taxes are put on EV’s.
No, it’s not irrelevant. What the hell do I want with a vehicle that can’t take me on ANY trip I want to take?! Especially at more than twice the cost of a vehicle that CAN?!
“What the hell do I want with a vehicle that can’t take me on ANY trip I want to take?!”
Mate you need to do some learning. Youtube is loaded with people in EV’s doing long trips. Sure it may mean the trip is slightly longer but it will be much cheaper and probably a whole lot more fun.
So EV manufacturers recommend recharging no more than 80 per cent of battery pack capacity on a regular basis to protect the batteries.
And the battery system limits discharge to not exceed 10 per cent.
Therefore when travelling write off 30 per cent of range before considering the other variable energy consumption items like air conditioning, highway speeds and hills.
So you start at 70% effective “range,” then you can cut that in half for “real world” driving conditions vs. fantasy world “estimated range” operating conditions (at best; reduce by more in extreme conditions), then you can cut THAT in half for prudent “charging stops” so you don’t end up stranded #%&@ur momisugly knows where.
So multiply “estimated” range by about 17.5%.
I’ll say it again. Useless, virtue-signalling toys for wealthy hypocrites.
It’s all a bait and switch, we are starting to see comments that most people don’t really need a car and so maybe “shouldn’t” have one.
Which will be the answer when the supply hits the demand wall for electricity, battery material, etc.
You can’t go back to the old way, the new way really doesn’t work oops, I guess you’ll just have to live with it.
It’s what happens when we put artists in charge of our technical needs.
I need my engineers on the autism not artism side of the scale.
I’m proudly on the autism side, I occasionally make things that actually work
Maybe the innovative drivers will end up with old vehicles and equip them with charcoal burners to produce gas to fuel the internal combustion engines?
As during and after WW2 in desperation when liquid fuels were rationed.
Then again, we could cut off the engine bay and install shafts for Horses, but the environmentalists would be unhappy with all the poolution resulting.
The public is in denial with regard to EV safety. EV safety is perpetually just another fix from being solved. On April 17th, after an EV car accident, fire fighters doused the vehicle with 28,000 gallons of water over a period of 7 hours in which flames spontaneously reignited:
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/federal-regulators-warn-risks-firefighters-electrical-vehicle-fires-n1271084
In 2019, a Phoenix APS substation designed to store electricity from solar cells ignited. Undaunted, APS still has plans for future installations on its drawing boards, even as an investigation into the fire continues:
https://apnews.com/article/hi-state-wire-fires-us-news-ap-top-news-az-state-wire-5cd81a81345a40f5b1ac2e5556a68ff7
On July 30th in Australia, a Tesla Megapack battery caught fire:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-megapack-catches-fire-at-australian-battery-project-11627635528
“High-voltage batteries like the ones used in Teslas can reignite after being damaged, even after firefighters have extinguished a fire, according to the National Transportation Safety Board,” the article concludes.
Gasoline at the gas pump is rated to flow at 10 gal/min. That is 330 khw of energy per minute.
At 7kw you meet to charge for 47 hours to equal the same amount of energy.
Electric propulsion is not enough of a step up in efficiency to make this practical.
The only solution would be to create hundreds of charging stations for every gas pump.
You basically need 1 charging station per one or two cars, and the car will need to charge at least as much as it drives.
That puts a whole new perspective on waiting in line for things.
Hi Honey, I am second in line at the charging station, I will probably be home tomorrow, 🙂
see: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11G4yWUuQ1gTrNjBBWCXuWDIqau7QUuZO/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=112477356397851702224&rtpof=true&sd=true
cut and paste to see.
It waa written, obviously in jest, that 90 per cent of EVs sold are still on the roads.
The others made it home.
Brilliant! Hope you don’t mind if I borrow that one.
It has been calculated that to cope with high traffic and increasing in holiday periods that to recharge EVs would require a vast area of land with recharging bays, think about the outdoor drive-in movie businesses and parking area with speakers on poles.
And of course a cafe on site for EV drivers and passengers to fill in time waiting for the 80% hour long recharge, maybe a little less time if the local grid can cope.
The E-Cat SKL has been perfected and is the solution for electric cars. Other new energy sources are also being perfected. See the following: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11G4yWUuQ1gTrNjBBWCXuWDIqau7QUuZO/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=112477356397851702224&rtpof=true&sd=true
You may have to copy and past the URL above to activate it.
Uh, why do they assume there is only one driver?
(Don McCollor)…The obvious thing was in the first gas crisis in the 1970’s when they tried to think things through.. EV’s needed swappable battery packs (like a cordless drill). Pull in to a station, swap out the battery for a charged one, and be on your way..The station could recharge batteries at leisure….
And how would the deteriorating replacement battery pack condition be costed, and who would the loser be, EV driver/owner or battery station owners?
How would EV warranty consider an EV that had many battery pack replacements before a warranty issue was raised?
The only way I can think to solve this problem is to have the automaker retain ownership of the battery back, and just rent them out to the car buyer.
Of course that would mean the swapping station would have to maintain sufficient batteries from each of the many EV manufacturers to make sure they always had a fully charged battery on hand.
Of course this problem could be solved by having all batteries owned by some third party, instead of the manufacturers or car buyers.
A cordless drill battery weighs a pound or two. A car battery weighs hundreds of pounds to around 1000 pounds.
First thing you need to do is get all the car manufacturers to standardize on one or two battery styles. If you think your change out station is going to stock half a dozen batteries of each of several dozen styles, you’re crazy.
Then you are going to have to buy a custom built robotic arm that is capable of swapping out those very heavy batteries, all without damaging the delicate electrical connectors.
Thirdly, if you think they will be able to build an affordable robot that is capable of doing that in under 15 minutes or so, you have never studied mechanical engineering.
You also have to handle those batteries gently, no hard bangs. Otherwise you risk having the battery go up in flames while charging.
Then there is the problem of where do those batteries get stored while they are being charged and until they get swapped back out?
If they are on racks, then the racks have to be strong enough to carry a large number of very heavy batteries. You also need some way to isolate those batteries from each other. You don’t want one battery catching fire to incinerate your entire inventory.
Combine that with the problem of swapping out a brand new battery for one that is on it’s last recharge, and you have a solution that will never work in the real world.
Fast chargers are much faster. The supercharger network is a fast charging network for Teslas. Non-Tesla EVs have a separate (much worse, for now) network.
Depending on the state of charge, etc, you can refill 200 miles of charge in about 20 minutes.
If you live in China, you can buy a NIO SUV that has access to a network of a few hundred battery swapping stations. They swap out a dead battery for a full one in about 5 minutes.
Nothing can compete with the convenience of diesel for road trips. For typical commuting, EVs are more convenient than diesel. You take 10 seconds to plug in at home, recharge overnight and start every day with a full charge.
If you conveniently ignore, once again, the fact that this reduces battery life and is therefore not the “typical” charge time you can expect routinely.
And that “200 miles worth” is another “estimate” based on completely ridiculous operating condition “assumptions,” which in the real world will probably cut that in half or more.
“How Long Does it Take to Charge an Electric Vehicle?: There is no simple answer, but knowing the variables will help you better estimate the time it takes for an EV fill-up.” By K.C. Colwell | May 22, 2020 | CarAndDriver.com
Ignoring tesla:
“granny chargers”! are 2.7kW (standard wall socket)
dedicated home chargers are 7kw
3 phase home chargers are 22kw
In the wild there are
rapid >=100kw 100kW-350kW
Fast ~=50kW
Plus all the other destination chargers and people willing to share their home charger!
Many supermarkets have free 7kw and paid for/free 50kW chargers in car park
I do not understand why people are talking 7kW!
the speed to full charge is not only dependant on the max charge delivery rate but also on battery charge level and temperature. This mainly applies to the 100kW+ chargers which may reduce rate to 50kw if hot/v-cold or near full charge
tw0 screen shots rapid and fast chargers in uk
above is rapid and fast. this is rapid and both exclude tesla
Why I am not interested in buying an EV;
* The price is too high, an equivalent ICE model far less money, the difference between ICEV and EV before an EV buyer breaks even would pay for a lot of liquid fuel and services.
* Inconvenience of recharging stopovers, full charge takes several hours, 80% charge up to an hour, but when travelling in the countryside I need maximum range all the time.
I am concerned about exothermic reaction and very difficult to extinguish fire hazard.
The only reason why EV’s are currently cheaper to operate is that at present, the fuel used by EVs is being subsdized. Once the government finds that it can no longer maintain that subsidey (as percentage of EVs goes up), then that advantage disappears. It may even reverse.
The maintenance issue is not that big. The only regular maintenance for an ICE that isn’t present on an EV is oil changes. $15 to $20 dollars, 3 or 4 times a year.
The engine for your ICE will probably last longer than the battery for an EV, and the engine will last longer as well.
“and the engine will last longer as well….”
Nope. Estimated life of the model three engines is around 1 million miles. Way fewer moving parts. Find me a ICE engine that will reliably do that?
I sincerely hope that EV fans who buy thinking about the environment are aware of the environmental issues in an EV production, and disposal of batteries?
And take care to only recharge from renewable energy direct sources, not suppliers buying tax credit offsets and selling fossil fuel generated electricity ….. meaning most of the word’s electricity supply.
“Renewables” are 100% fossil fuel dependent anyway, so getting your “juice” from wind and solar is nothing more than virtue signalling. EVs are all ultimately coal, oil, gas or nuclear powered, for the most part. A bit of hydro here and there. Wind and solar are just indirect coal and oil and nuclear (and a bit of hydro) powered.
I live in Alberta, in Western Canada. Population 4.3 million. There are no, zero, public charging stations in this province. There are huge distances between cities. In winter it gets cold, and stays that way for four months. In the city I live in, it is currently impossible to buy a new electric car and get in it and drive it on the same day you pay for it. You have to have it delivered from somewhere else.
70 percent of vehicles bought here in a given year are used. You can buy a safety inspected, insurable gas car here for as little as $4000. You can get in it the day you buy it, gas it up, and drive it 800 miles due north with no fear that you won’t be able to refuel it along the way.
The cheapest electric car available is about $40,000, and that would be a silly little golf cart with a range between charges of about 100 miles.
I live in a city (Edmonton) with a population of 981,000. I’m just guessing but I’ll bet that there are less than ten EVs in this city, and most of those are Teslas. I will also bet that most of the EV owners have annual incomes of $100,000 or greater, and all of them own other, gas-powered vehicles.
So, barring any major technological advances in the production and performance of electric cars, there is no way that electric cars will ever by anything but a tiny niche market here. No way.
But the average driver only drives 35 kms a day so EV is easily capable of that range.
Yes, but who can afford one when an ICEV costs at most half the price for an equivalent?
Then why cart around even a 200 kms range battery pack and heavy weight, far greater than a tank of liquid fuel for the same range that is much lighter when full of fuel?
Cut the range to 100 kms for a cheaper and lighter EV.
Yes I know, the tiny market would be even less so the kms per day sales pitch is ridiculous.
“What we are seeing is that once you have a range above 400 miles, more range doesn’t really matter. There are essentially zero trips above 400 miles where the driver doesn’t need to stop for restroom, food, coffee, etc. anyway.”
My first car was a 1968 Jeep, which I drove between home in St. Louis County, MO, to college in Melbourne, FL back in 1972-74. It was exactly 1,100 miles from my driveway at home to the parking lot at school. The first time I did it, I didn’t get out of the car once, including to gas it up – the gas tank was under the driver’s seat, and I could refuel without leaving the seat. It took me exactly 20 hours and 30 minutes to make that first trip. Subsequent trips took longer, because the “gas crisis” hit somewhere in there, and speed limits were greatly (and unsafely) reduced. But even today, at age 67, I can go more than 400 miles without stopping for any reason.
You must be a camel!
I’ve been driving since I was twelve years old in the 1960’s and was an ‘undocumented driver’ during the three years before I got my license.
In the state where I grew up, you could obtain a driver’s license at the age of fifteen if you took a driver’s training class. Which I did in the summer of 1967.
In driver’s ed, first you do the classroom work, then they put you into a car and give you what is supposed to be your first driving experience behind the wheel.
In our case, the first drive was done in a large parking lot near our high school.
Three of us students and the instructor went out into the lot and got into the driver’s ed car. It was an absolutely beautiful red and white 1967 Pontiac Catalina.
I was first up. We went around the parking lot several times, and then the instructor asked me this question. “How long have you been driving a car?”
“Three years. Both automatic and stick shift. I like stick shift better.”
Then he said, “OK. Let’s go out onto the street and see how well you do.” After we got back, he noted that I had picked up some bad habits which needed to be corrected. These problems were emphasized to the other two students who were riding in the back seat.
Nothing more was said about it. I finished up the driver’s ed course and got my license at the end of the summer with 100% on the written test and 96% on the driving test.