From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT
JULY 19, 2021
By Paul Homewood
More than two dozen electric Proterra buses first unveiled by the city of Philadelphia in 2016 are already out of operation, according to a WHYY investigation.
The entire fleet of Proterra buses was removed from the roads by SEPTA, the city’s transit authority, in February 2020 due to both structural and logistical problems—the weight of the powerful battery was cracking the vehicles’ chassis, and the battery life was insufficient for the city’s bus routes. The city raised the issues with Proterra, which failed to adequately address the city’s concerns.
The city paid $24 million for the 25 new Proterra buses, subsidized in part by a $2.6 million federal grant. Philadelphia defended the investment with claims that the electric buses would require less maintenance than standard combustion engine counterparts.
“There’s a lot less moving parts on an electric bus than there is on an internal combustion engine,” SEPTA chief Jeffrey Knueppel said in June 2019. Knueppel retired from the post just months later.
Proterra, which had Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm on its board of directors when Philadelphia pulled the buses off the streets last year, has been highlighted by the Biden administration as a business of the future. President Joe Biden visited the company’s factory in April and pledged in his initial infrastructure package proposal to include federal money for the electric vehicle market. The company has since been touted by top officials including White House climate adviser Gina McCarthy, who in a public meeting asked Proterra’s CEO how the federal government could spur demand for Proterra buses.
The cost of Proterra’s electric buses has gained attention in recent weeks. On a recent trip by Biden to La Crosse, Wis., it was revealed that two buses the city ordered from Proterra for $1.5 million in 2018 have still not been delivered. Over the past five days, Proterra’s stock price has fallen over 25 percent.
Philadelphia’s Proterra buses were first rolled out for the 2016 DNC convention with a promise that the city was “plugging into an emissions free future.”
Granholm was on Proterra’s board from 2017 until earlier this year. It was during that time that both SEPTA and Proterra learned that the heavier buses were cracking, according to the WHYY report.
Philadelphia placed the Proterra buses in areas where it thought they could succeed but quickly learned it was mistaken. Two pilot routes selected in South Philadelphia that were relatively short and flat compared with others in the city were too much for the electric buses.
“Even those routes needed buses to pull around 100 miles each day, while the Proterras were averaging just 30 to 50 miles per charge,” WHYY reporter Ryan Briggs wrote. “Officials also quickly realized there wasn’t room at the ends of either route for charging stations.”
Similar problems have been found in other cities that partnered with Proterra. Duluth, Minn., which, like Philadelphia, waitedthree years for its Proterra buses to be delivered, ultimately pulled its seven buses from service “because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill,” according to the Duluth Monitor.
Proterra did not respond to a request for comment.
Proterra has sold over 1,000 electric buses.
It seems the rest are working just fine.
So like windmills and solar farms, they probably work fine as long as the are placed in an environment chosen to be good for them. Ask them to to the real work and they break pretty quickly?
I like this experience concerning the buses in Duluth, “Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.”
The fact that buses couldn’t stop and rolled downhill is concerning. Diesel buses in the first place cost less than about half the price, but more importantly work.
https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/19/electric-bus-pilot-project-reveals-problems/
Everything works…..until it don’t………
There are electric “buses” of a sort, which work just fine, in my city.
They’re called “streetcars” and are powered by overhead electric lines.
Anyone with a lick of sense and lacking a political agenda, would quickly get past the idea of buses lugging around the freight load of batteries.
As a wee lad in the early 1950’s I road all over Dayton, Ohio on the trolley cars (buses) with my mother. Later I rode them downtown to my job as an electronic tech during my teenage years. They worked fine then and they work fine today even through various entities over the decades try to kill them off.
GM was at the center of that effort – one of the reasons I detest that company. They (among others) were the ones that sentenced us all to the oxymoron known as “BUS SERVICE.”
Yes they wanted to sell diesel buses and put many an electric trolley system down.
Actually a good point….those have worked well in Germany and Europe for nearly 100 years…..enough with expensive battery technology.
DING! DING! DING!
We have a winner! Electric vehicles of ANY variety will not be practical until they can draw their electricity from the roads or tracks or other pathways they travel on. Batteries don’t cut it, especially when ambient “operating conditions” are outside the ridiculous, exceedingly restrictive and optimistic “assumptions” used when calculating their supposed range.
I bet if somebody were to FOIA the manufacturer, they’d find the supposed “range” is calculated for an empty bus (driver only) on a flat, dry road with a temperature of 75 degrees F and no HVAC, wipers, lights or other accessories in use. LMFAO.
These useless pieces of shit were getting 30-50 miles per charge when they were supposed to get 100 miles per charge, and that was when using them on the “best” (read: least demanding) routes. Can you imagine the range on the most challenging routes? (“What do you mean the batteries are dead – you only made three stops!”)
Saw later the “supposed” range was actually 300 miles, so it’s even more pathetic!
Vancouver BC has an extensive network of wires for trolley busses. Perhaps limited by busses impeding busses on very busy routes like Broadway. One solution is to add rapid transit to some of that street. (Vancouver BC and suburbs have an extensive rapid transit system, much of it on stilts, some underground especially where there are many businesses along the street – Cambie for example.)
“Everything works…..until it don’t………”
Everything works on paper. It’s the real world where things get dicey.
Even Galloping Gertie worked on paper.
Tacoma Narrows Bridge Collapse “Gallopin’ Gertie” https://youtu.be/j-zczJXSxnw via @YouTube
“In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.”
Good point….everything works fine if its the taxpayers that are left with the bill.
Wind and solar may be fine for specific, isolated circumstances. But anything more. is pouring money down a rat hole.
Except in Philadelphia, the powers that be did exactly that – and the buses STILL were not up to the task.
By the way, just ignore Griff. All he is good for is comic relief.
Michael, from this article, it doesn’t sound like it.
“…Philadelphia placed the Proterra buses in areas where it thought they could succeed but quickly learned it was mistaken. Two pilot routes selected in South Philadelphia that were relatively short and flat compared with others in the city were too much for the electric buses.”
f they won’t work on short and flat routes, they won’t work anywhere, it seems to me.
What you’re leaving out there is that the “environment chosen to be good for them” only exists in San Diego, CA – and only if San Diego is flat as a billiard table, and the buses don’t have to run after dark. Otherwise, not so much.
You don’t know if they are working “just fine”. Obviously Philadelphia’s aren’t.
Never underestimate griff’s crystal ball. It is very active.
Perhaps even radioactive.
Maybe even retroactively proactive. Indeed, Wonders to Behold!
Griff didn’t know until he read this article that these busses were not working at all…..and assumes all the other busses still are…cause he is a bit strange and a loony left propagandist.
The rest of us would prefer to see evidence of that than take Griffy’s dubious word for it.
Do you have any data to support that statement or are you just assuming because you don’t know?
Why did you ignore this statement in the article?
Yeah, but none of those thousand other buses don’t have heavy batteries, fragile chassis or inadequate batter life. Philadelphia just happened to get the only lemons out of the whole supply.
AWG,
That is called Dem/Prog statistical sampling.
They selected the buses, based on a lack of judgment, and what would yield them the most GW brownie points
They got what they deserved
Biden’s deficit-financed “INFRASTRUCTURES” bill, would multiply idiocy by factors of ten.
A simple analysis by an energy systems engineer would immediately show, the imagined, fairly tale project was doomed to fail.
Starry-eyed Dem/Progs in Boston had the same results with electric school buses.
Doesn’t take an engineer, @Willem. I just took a look at the Route 8 here in Tucson (just about completely flat). It does a ~20 mile round trip, 28 times a day. That’s 14 buses, just to cover this one route (two round trips per bus, before they go in for charging the rest of the day – maybe the first two or three can use solar, the rest will have to use the grid). Not counting cloudy days, or having a spare or two when one breaks down. I’m also wondering if that 30-50 mile range is with the A/C running? A bus that loses its A/C in the summer here HAS to be taken out of service for repair.
Writing Observer,
Thank you,
Plenty of anecdotal evidence exists regarding electric buses being gross failures.
But those stories are “after the fact”
An energy systems engineer would have blown that out of the water “before the fact”.
I made an electric school bus analysis, sent it to at least 50 people in the government, and they went ahead with electric school buses anyway, which, led to failure, even worse than I expected, not to MY surprise.
The problem is the starry-eyed RE idiots are in charge.
And if a newly elected politician comes to a meeting
(he ran on draining the swamp), he is immediately confronted by the old guard of entrenched bureaucrats, who are eager to continue BAU.
There ain’t no way to drain the swamp, so the politician pulls in his horns and licks his ego wounds
No kidding, when Trump ran on draining the swamp the 3 letter agencies started spying and needed Russia colluuuusion to continue spying.
Yeah, and then 50 former intelligence officers, including five former CIA directors, from both political parties, came out and tried to defend Joe Biden by claiming Hunter’s laptop was Russian disinformation.
So, we now know that all these so-called intelligence experts were either lying or completely misinformed since it is a certainty that the laptop is Hunter Biden’s laptop, and the FBI has been in possession of it since at least 2019. No prosecutions yet, FBI? How convenient for the Biden’s.
That’s the Swamp we are contending with: Nearly all our officials and bureaucrats, some from our own party, are lying to the American people in order to enhance the Democrat Party and tear down the Republican Party.
Our Elites/Swamp Critters want one-party rule in the United States.
Be careful about who you put your trust in because they may actually be a Swamp Critter disguised as a normal human being. Bill Barr, anyone?
Political processes:
A politician was visiting a remote little rural town in Australia and asked the locals what the government could do for them.
“We have two big needs,” said the townspeople.
“First, we have a hospital but no doctor.”
The politician whipped out his iPhone, spoke for a while and then said, “I have sorted that out. A doctor will arrive here tomorrow. What is your other need?”
The townspeople replied, “We have no mobile phone reception in our town.” Geoff S
william, that is funny!
I’ve ridden buses. Some probably have comfortable air conditioning but many just aren’t quite as hot as outside — definitely not “comfortable”.
Depends on climate. In the mid-wet coast of North America few would have air conditioning traditionally. But AZ is hot – I left there one morning in August with temperature at 112F headed to 120F. At least it was dry heat, whereas NYV is humid, icky.
Cloudy days?? In Tucson??
Our local council made an effort to get some Green Cred and purchased with great fan fair a big electric bus for use in the free community circle route.
It was rubbish.
It was an easy guess that if the bus was late then it was eventually going to be the green bus. The diesels also used on the same service never had the same problem.
The bus was also amusing to watch late in the day when trying to go up a hill. The aircon would automatically switch on and off because there simply wasn’t enough juice in the tank.
It then disappeared for a couple of years. It was sheepishly and quietly mentioned that this was because they had to replace the battery and no one in Australia could do it.
Then it came out again and much the same problems. It still exists, I think, but really wish they would just push it into a pit and throw rocks at it.
They got what they deserved? The people who had to pay for them or the thugs that purchased them?
Maybe all of their busses were built on Mondays.
And on TGIF Fridays
Griffter also ignored that the City of Duluth also pulled these buses out of service. If Griffter had done two minutes of research he would have found a HILARIOUS story on the Duluth buses. Of course, the idiot didn’t do that – he apparently doesn’t mind that he gets caught lying.
From the story “Technicians also determined that Duluth’s cold weather was causing the bus heaters to drain the batteries too rapidly, preventing them from completing a full shift.
Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.”
“he apparently doesn’t mind that he gets caught lying.”
That seems to be the case.
self moderated
“he apparently doesn’t mind that he gets caught lying.”
It’s SOP for him. His funniest lies are when he posts links that don’t support his claims while claiming they do.
Oh the irony, the name of the investigating body is “WHYY”
Joe
WHYY are the call letters for the local radio news station.
Amazing, but WHYY is a PBS station.
Given the long wait times documented in the article – maybe it is just that very few of these $1M+ buses are actually in operation because very few have actually been delivered.
I was curious what “regular” buses cost. According to this article: https://www.liveabout.com/bus-cost-to-purchase-and-operate-2798845, a diesel bus costs around $550K.
So if we’re talking about $1M per bus – how many years of diesel “savings” does it take to make up for the $450K extra cost.
Even at $4/gallon for diesel and say, 10 mpg, each electric bus would have to be driven 1.1M miles to make up for the difference.
I am fairly sure there are no 1M mile odometer buses being used in public transit?
approx 250 miles a day = 1750 miles a week. 15 years years will get you to a million.
But if you have to replace an electric bus every 5 years or sooner, you lose money on each one but make up for it on volume.
That’s assuming you take zero time off for maintenance during that 15 years. Your calculation assumes 7 days a week 52 weeks a year, uninterrupted for 15 years. Good luck with that, pal.
Also, as noted by Writing Observer above, because of maintenance, charging, etc., it takes multiple buses for a single route. Put that in Sparko’s pipe and smoke it.
No-one is mentioning the cost of replacement batteries or infrastructure…which is because the busses don’t last as long as the batteries…so no need to worry about that, excellent. Planned obsolescence minus any kind of realistic plan. “Their” plan is to scream like a deranged child until they get what they are told they want…and then blame Trump when it doesn’t work…..again.
Griff the nutbag doesn’t seem to get it at all, what is the story with this bizarre character? Educated, but mental? Or something more sinister?
Re this buss fiasco, who here could bring themselves to sign such a deal? Even if I had a gun against my head I would be disgusted with myself forever more…sick sad world.
“Griff the nutbag doesn’t seem to get it at all, what is the story with this bizarre character?”
The bright spot with griff is that we can hope some AGW outfit like Carbon Brief is paying him to troll on here. It’s quite lovely to think any of them have put even one dime into paying him to post his nonsense.
The article indicates that Philly has been getting 30 to 50 miles per charge. Given 4 to 8 hours to recharge the batteries, it’s simply not possible to get 250 miles per day.
……barring obsolescence!
Thank you for the mathematical exercise – but the question was whether there actually are buses with 1M+ miles on the odometer?
This is a question about fact, not about speculation.
A quick search turned this up: https://www.liveabout.com/buses-and-other-transit-lifetime-2798844#:~:text=The%20answer%20depends%20on%20what%20kind%20of%20bus,useful%20life%20of%2012%20years%20and%20250%2C000%20miles.
The typical city transit system expects a bus to last 12 years and drive 250,000 miles.
So if we have an extra $550K cost vs. diesel – the extra capital cost comes out to $2.20 per mile.
Seems excessive to me.
Your original question asked “If” any buses had driven over 1,000,000 miles.
Now you return and use “averages” to assist your logical fallacy red herring.
All of which ignores that as long as buses meet safety regulations and can be repaired, they are kept in service virtually everywhere.
Then we also need to address the specious “miles” mark.
City buses drive slowly and repeatedly over measured bus routes.
All day and often 24 hours per day.
The key metric for the life of a bus is measured in ‘Hours’ not miles.
Sorry, but everything you write is idiotic.
The entire point of the exercise was to understand what the cost tradeoff is between electric vs. diesel.
The price difference is $450K vs. $1M+; the fuel difference is therefore the price difference divided by estimate fuel cost and mpg.
Nobody uses “hours” to estimate anything to do with transportation – not the IRS, not trucking fees, etc.
Then, of course, I actually found data which public transit authorities estimate the lifetime usage and value of a bus is.
Net net: the electric buses are extremely expensive compared to diesel. The supposed freedom from diesel cost is irrelevant if the capital cost is so enormous.
In spite of your personal obsession and apparently idiotic ignorance, you are wrong.
Finding vehicle mileage because you searched for miles doesn’t change the proper metric.
For vehicles with engines that run incessantly, the wear factor on both vehicles and drivers is ‘Hours’. Miles becomes a trivial consideration.
Look up regulations controlling operator/drivers and the regulations are based on hours of driving, hours of operation, not how many miles driven.
e.g. a bus may run a route that covers minimal miles but operates many hours.
According to these stats, over six months of ‘testing’, these hybrid buses got 6.3 miles per gallon.
Buses allegedly managed 11 miles for every “Hour” of operation.
As claimed, these test buses drove 175 miles each day of the test, driven during 16 hours of operation.
16 hours are two shifts of 8 hours or more likely 4 shifts of 4 hours each. Even though each driver only drove 11 miles per hour.
Are the drivers tracked by “miles” per day or per hour? No, they are tracked by hours driving.
Miles driven is a useless metric for determining vehicle wear! Hours are the metric governing operation!
i think both of you are broad-brushing.
First I will note that drives are not vehicles.
Engines that run regardless of whether or not the vehicle is moving have wear due to time spent running – those in cold temperatures for example. That time may be less stressful than running under load. So it needs to be factored. Load varies – hilly terrain pushes engines harder.
Time spent moving also wears suspension and tires.
In an earlier post I point to factors other than wear and tear motivating replacement. Here I add pollution reduction – particulate emissions from diesels for example. And more efficient engine designs.
Here I will add that in poor societies with cheap labour busses are probably kept in service for a very long time.
My points fall under the proper method of knowledge – ‘integration’ – considering all factors, then ideally weighting each.
“City buses drive slowly and repeatedly over measured bus routes.
All day and often 24 hours per day.”
Well, you might get close to 24 hours per day out of a fossil fuel powered bus that only takes mere minutes a day to refuel. You are definitely not going to be anywhere close to 24 hours a day for an electric bus that requires *hours* of recharging time each day (and that’s even assuming you only ever “fast charge” them, which kills the battery life).
Agreed!
Not only is it excessive, but the battery powered buses don’t do the job. Also see the comment above about needing multiple buses to cover the shortest and flattest of routes due to the pathetic “range,” which would multiply (by many) the number of worse-than-useless battery powered paper weights needed to cover the same routes.
I mean, “bus service” (oxymoron if there ever was one) is bad enough with buses that actually function; riding an “electric” (as in “battery powered”) bus seems like a step below walking home.
I’m surprised at only 250,000 miles, but I note that busses may be replaced earlier than they have to be to get desirable features like low entry (kneeling suspension and ramps that slide out), and yes air conditioning to entire more people to use the system.
Bus services are reduced dramatically on weekends and holidays.
Subtract out the power bill. And the batteries will be shot before 15 years.
Sparko’s math is reasonably close. In a previous life, the wife used to work for PACE Suburban Bus in Chicagoland. PACE expected to get 1 million miles out of each bus chassis, albeit with one or two engine/transmission overhauls along the way, upholstery changes, etc. Admittedly, the suburban routes tend to be longer mileage than city routes.
Down in St Louis, they are managing to get 1 million miles out of their fleet units on the original engine ! …
https://www.metrostlouis.org/nextstop/metro-maintenance-program-produces-a-million-mile-bus/
That St Louis bus was put into service in 2001 and passed 1 million miles in 2017.
PACE frequently gets 1 or 2 million miles out of their bus drivers, as I sat through several award ceremonies for drivers reaching that mark. Several of those drivers had driven 1 million miles without an accident, which is remarkable considering Chicago winter weather.
However, the Federal Transit Administration publishes a Guide for Grants for life-cycling buses at 12 years / 500,000 miles (general bus) or 10 years / 350 miles (public transit) before the local transportation authority can apply for federal grant money to replace the asset, so your mileage may vary considerably.
When you spend most of the time standing still and averaging about 12mph (on the faster routes), not getting into an accident shouldn’t be all that difficult…
I’m not much of a fan of buses, can you tell? 😀
What you lose in lifetime, cost, and efficiency compared to diesel buses, you get back in virtue points.
What you lose in lifetime, cost, and efficiency compared to diesel buses, you get back <s>in virtue points</s> under the table in a brown paper bag.
I am sure the tax payers will love to have that show up in their pockets. Spend it wherever you like.
Virtue-signalling is the whole point of Big Green.
And you’re getting the electricity free?
w/no emissions
Misleading data again Griffy? Proterra have sold over 1,000 buses to customers around the USA but have delivered only about 375 of them. That means a significantly larger proportion of them are failing.
If you act like a mentally challenged child in this way, then people will treat you as such – you reap what you sow Griff.
How many of those delivered are as old as the Philadelphia busses?
💋 💋 busses
🚌 🚌 buses
🧐🧐 pedants
😜
Thank you, Rich. Deftly done; a light touch.
It’s been driving me crazy (Is this my the buss stop?) the whole of the comment thread.
Actually, I should like to apologise for my data problem. The data I was using is out of date; as of 2021 the number of buses delivered has increased to just over 400. It was 375 in 2017, 390 in 2019 and the only data I have found for this year indicates it is “just over 400”. So apologies all round for that. I’ve not been able to find detailed data on individual contracts so I can’t tell when deliveries were made, nor which model of bus was delivered.
Just look for the headlines about “new buses not meeting expectations,” and you should find them quickly. 😀
griff – Over 1,000 buses sold. How many have been delivered?
–
La Crosse, WI is still waiting for the two buses they ordered in 2018. Isn’t it a bit premature to declare any as-yet-to-be-delivered bus a success when they haven’t yet been driven the first mile?
–
I honestly don’t know how many of those that were sold have been delivered, and of those delivered, how many are still in service.
It is sad to read that La Crosse is dumb enough to waste taxpayers money 😞
La Crosse is in Wisconsin. nuff said, like Minnesota. Cold not only kills, it seems to slow brain cells significantly.
In Denver, I thought it was the altitude. Hypoxia, y’know?
There you have it griff was right neither of those buses have broken down yet!
🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
–
So griff is on a hot streak of correctitudiness… until they deliver those 2 buses [♫♪ sad trombone ♫♪].
If La Crosse paid for those buses before they were delivered, that, in my (legal) opinion, is a criminal misappropriation of public funds.
“ I honestly don’t know how many of those that were sold have been delivered, and of those delivered, how many are still in service.”
That’s OK H.R., neither does griff. At least you are honest about it, griff just lies through his teeth.
Nice way to pad their statistics – the 600 they haven’t delivered have never experienced a failure! LMAO!
The other 976 are probably static exhibits in transport museums around the world.
There’s something battery powered buses can excel at – youngest piece of mass transit equipment in a museum! LMAO!
Forgot to note that they will need to remove the battery packs from the museum pieces to remove the fire hazard.
O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world
That has such people in’t!
1) There is no global heating and no climate emergency
2) Even if there were such a thing, trying to move everyone to battery powered transport will not have any effect on it.
The committed need to accept that if they really do believe in the global heating emergency, start advocating the kinds of changes to living and working which that requires. One of the lesser changes would be to transport.
It would not be replacing ICE vehicles with battery powered. On the contrary, it would be abolishing cars and replacing them with public transport, light rail, trolley buses, trams. They can all be electrically powered and there’s a long history of them working just fine. And they don’t need any lithium.
And as soon as you accept that, you realize that the collateral changes to how we live and work would be immense. So figure them out, start advocating them too. Maybe people will buy in. Though there is little or no sign of that yet, and the campaign has been going 30+ years.
And start demonstrating outside the Chinese embassy, till they get on board also.
Stop that! The idealistic politicians might get some more nutty ideas to try out on the guinea pigs!
As a practical matter, in big city areas, especially, in Dem run states, housing sells for a tremendous premium and the worker bees have to live far out of the city. I doubt electric buses are going to be making it to and from distant locations at the speed required to match a diesal bus speeds. For people spending hours a day on buses anyways, I doubt they are going to want to add to that time as, I suspect they would, to ride and electric bus. Just a thought.
Fixed it for you.
Sold. Delivered? In service? An imaginary bus, or a yard queen is certainly “working just fine.”
Yup – the 600 they didn’t delver are working just great! 😀
The rest, well….
“It seems the rest are working just fine.”
In the same way as stopped clocks always show the correct time twice a day !
Electric buses / trams are definitely the way forward for urban transport … they just need connecting to a reliable electricity supply via overhead cables (as was done successfully in the 20th century).
The history of electric road transport started in the 1830s & ever since then, batteries have always been the Achilles Heel.
But why did they go away in the 20th century if they were so “successful”? The fact is that they weren’t competitive with the private automobile and that the need for overhead wires and rails severely limited where service could be supplied. They are “the way forward” only if government regulation forces it in defiance of their economic disadvantage.
An (actual) conspiracy. Read “Getting There: The Epic Struggle Between Road and Rail in the American Century.”
Trolley and Interurban railway companies, for example, were bought up and scrapped, so (cough) “others” could sell buses to the cities instead.
In griff’s world, if the Guardian doesn’t cover something, it didn’t happen.
Hi Griffo, how are you doing in the UK’s ‘unprecedented’ heatwave all of 31C (87F)
In Germany electric buses are hot property:
Hanover: Million damage in a fire in the depot for electric buses
https://newsrnd.com/life/2021-06-06-hanover–million-damage-in-a-fire-in-the-depot-for-electric-buses.Bke5b3xqcO.html
Major fire in Düsseldorf: 40 buses destroyed
https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2021-04-01-major-fire-in-düsseldorf–40-buses-destroyed.SyWG57JXHO.html
No indication if the buses were electric or diesel.
Nice warranty, 100,000 km or until bus goes up in flames, whichever happens first.
I’ve always wondered about the usefulness of these “lifetime” warranties
Does this mean that the warranty only lasts until the object breaks?
Or until the object send you to your grave.
Probably more clever than that. “Bumper to bumper warranty – 100,000 km”
Exclusions – Fire, Flood, Overcharging Batteries, Undercharging Batteries, Operation in Rain or Snow, Operation in Dark Conditions… 😀
In France we like to do things differently….
On what evidence are you basing that assertion?
Griff does evidence? Who knew?
No, Griff does wishful thinking.
Griff is allergic to evidence-based anything.
Yeah, and Solyndra solar cells were also seemed to be working just fine until . . .
But wait, griff, no need for you to respond with “But that was a different time, a different company, and a different technology” . . . for clearly, we all know that something like that could NEVER happen again, right?
Sales mean the buses were sold. That does not mean the customers have functioning bus service.
Everyone who ever lived on earth, but didn’t have an obituary printed in the newspaper apparently is still alive. Same griffian logic.
In which time period would you prefer to live your life?
[__] Benign low CO2 1675-1750
[__] “Dangerous” CO2 1950-2025
It has orders for 1000.
It has delivered nowhere near that number.
Try harder Griff.
“Proterra buses were also taken out of service in Duluth, Minnesota, after officials realized that hilly routes and heaters were draining batteries too quickly. A battery fleet from Chinese manufacturer BYD was taken out of service in Indianapolis for upgrades due to range issues, while officials in Albuquerque, New Mexico, returned 15 BYD buses for similar reasons. The CEO of a major battery-powered truck start-up, Nikola — the related sector Proterra is now hoping to expand into — resigned after a report accused him of lying about the technical capabilities of long range vehicles.” – https://whyy.org/articles/septas-cracking-battery-buses-raise-questions-about-the-future-of-electric-transit/
“Problem with Proterra electric buses… they’re LEMONS!
It was a source of pride when the city of Seneca announced plans to become the first U.S. city to operate an all-electric bus fleet.
“We will eliminate our diesel fuel costs and eliminate our carbon footprint,” city administrator Greg Dietterick said during a November 2011 news conference.
But more than two years later, the city’s electric bus service has yet to get off the ground. Officials say there have been issues with the four Proterra buses they purchased since the buses were delivered in December.” – http://www.subchat.com/buschat/read.asp?Id=291326
Nothing ‘green’ ever works!
By “works” we mean functioning to the same performance standards as existing, established technology.
You’re quite right, Ken, but you left out the reason: Nothing ‘green’ can ever work, because if anything does work then the greens oppose it.
really!
Does ‘the rest’ include the Duluth experience?
https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/19/electric-bus-pilot-project-reveals-problems/
There is also this comment (“We wanted to design a bus around the system and not a system around a particular bus,”) which seems to be forgotten in the push for everything electric.
Proterra stock is down over 25% despite Griff saying the busses are working just fine. This makes Proterra a fantastic buy opportunity. I’m going to be rich!
It’s a sure thing our friend Griff is never wrong!
/sarc
Investors not impressed at all…
Ouch!
I’m sure the “investors” will soon be called “taxpayers,” via the “vehicle” (pardon the pun) of “bankruptcy.”
Do you not read the articles before you comment, griff?
…Similar problems have been found in other cities that partnered with Proterra. Duluth, Minn., which, like Philadelphia, waitedthree years for its Proterra buses to be delivered, ultimately pulled its seven buses from service “because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill,” according to the Duluth Monitor.
No, he/she/it (oh heck, let’s just call it Sheeit) only types in the script Sheeit is given.
“are working just fine” – Proof ? Or did you just pull that out of you butt?
No wonder his comments stink to high heaven.
Griff, congratulations on your negative score (-126 at posting). I think that this is a new record for you or anybody else. Given your recent track record on the quality of your posts, I doubt that it will stand for long.
They only did 2 months before being pulled out of service for the first time-
Electric bus pilot project reveals problems – Duluth Monitor
Read between the lines with Sir Humfrey Pumphrey griff-
“We’re happy to be doing this demonstration project and helping forward the technology aspect of electrics in an environment like this,” Pumphrey said noncommittally. “My counsel would be that we need to continue to see how reliable and effective they are.”
And you got this information where? Sounds like typical bs from an enviro.
Sold not equal in operation let alone just fine. Considering they haven’t even delivered half that number and Philly isn’t the only city experiencing problems with them, you claims of the rest “working just fine” is a laugh. No wonder you’ve reached triple digit negative on that posting and haven’t been back to reply to any of the numerous posts in response to your nonsense.
Sure, a 30% stock price fall is “just fine”
Nope, not in CA. This Co. is Xiden’s Solyndra.
The post opens with, ” More than two dozen electric Proterra buses first unveiled by the city of Philadelphia in 2016 are already out of operation, according to a WHYY investigation.”
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdOPBP9vuZA&w=560&h=315%5D
Regards,
Bob
What is funny is that we used to have electric busses, but got rid of those because of the unsightly cables all over roadways.
We had them in Toronto too. They were far more efficient than the battery ones are because they were much lighter, not needing to haul around a gigantic battery. Cleaner for the environment too, for the same reason, and they never ran out of charge.
https://www.fox6now.com/news/streetcar-bleeds-red-ink-as-ridership-struggles-to-rebound
If they built an intelligent and interconnected network of streetcars, they would do just fine. Inevitably, the bureaucrats build some disconnected, limited line and insist on charging a separate, exclusive fare for it (vs. buses, subways/commuter trains with free transfers), then wonder why nobody rides it.
Funny, I was thinking of those trolleys when I first learned of the electric bus debacle in Philly. They were very efficient but I can remember difficulty drive over their tracks in some parts of the city. Then they came up with track-less trolleys and pulled up all the tracks. These track-less trolleys were very successful for a long time.
One of my favorite memories in Philadelphia while visiting my dad’s aunt was to watch the trolley cars on the streets. It reminded me of living in Germany as a child. I think the trolleys are gone now.
Yes, I think they are all gone now. When I last lived in Pennsylvania, 40 years ago, I had a flat in Germantown and used to use Germantown Pike to head out into the western suburbs. The tracks were still there but no more trolleys.
According to wikipedia there are still 3 trolley routes in Philly (all of them “trackless trolleys”
Trolleybuses in Philadelphia – Wikipedia :
Route 59 Arrott Transportation Center Station – Oxford Avenue – Castor Avenue – Bells Corner, Rhawnhurst
Route 66 Frankford Transportation Center – Frankford Avenue – Torresdale/Holmesburg
Route 75 Arrott Terminal Station – Wyoming Avenue – Nicetown
Fixed it for you; electric vehicles NOT powered by batteries are the ONLY ones that will ever be useful.
At least the busses didn’t catch fire.
Yet…
That would be one way to stay warm during those Philadelphia winters.
That would be most unwelcome in places like Tuscan, tho.
I’d say bring your weenies and use it as a cooking fire, but you could probably just roast those by holding them over the sidewalk in Tuscan.
Especially when the heaters can’t operate if you want enough battery power to reach your destination!
What a joke, and a very expensive one. But I bet they feel so good!
Maybe SEPTA should hire the folks who committed massive voter fraud in Philly. They seem to know how to get things done. 😉
A possibility. Unfortunately in order for it to work, you’d probably need to tell them that Proterra was owned by Trump or something similar!
Wow, on the same day this came across my newsfeed:
https://www.ibtimes.com/united-airlines-invests-electric-planes-dont-count-them-taking-flight-soon-3254706
Of course, if Al Gore volunteered for the first test flight, I might be interested…
Please let me know where I can contribute $$ to pay for his very risky flight.
Electric planes?
No.
Remind me never to fly United again.
Researched this and Proterra. A fuster cluck all around.
Proterra’s new bus uses a Proterra designed modular battery with LiIon cells. They claimed 300 mile bus range but in Philly were getting at best 50 on the two relatively flat short routes requiring 100 miles per day.
So Proterra just doubled the battery (and battery weight).
To compensate for battery weight, Proterra uses a composite chassis. With the now doubled battery weight the chassis cracked and all the buses had to be taken out of service as unsafe. Lawsuits now flying.
Hybrid diesel electric busses make sense. Downsize the diesel, use the electric machine for acceleration and regen braking. Typical city bus never gets much over 35mph and starts/stops every couple of minutes. All of the newer buses in Fort Lauderdale are hybrids bought from Europe. Batteries are on the roof, add maybe a foot of height and are air cooled. Last life of bus (about 10 years) because never deeply discharged or fully charged.
Hybrid vehicles of many kinds make practical and economic sense for the right applications.
It’s the looney idea that battery-powered machines are up to the job right across the board that’s doomed to failure.
(but like socialism, “it’ll work good next time . . . “)
Bought from Europe? Awfully hard for the P*T*S and his cronies to get kickbacks from those. Just won’t fly.
Did you mean that the battery lasted 10 years? Seems to me that the bus should be able to last a lot longer than the battery does. If it’s properly maintained.
Looked it up again rather than rely on memory as above from my energy storage materials business. Average chassis life of a US city transit bus is 12 years. Includes about two engine rebuilds (about every four years).
Regular buses need new brakes about every 25k miles. Hybrids every 100k miles (regen braking), and no engine rebuilds because relatively constant load and rpms. Why all the newer Broward County Transit busses are hybrids. Saves money.
Makes sense, but I wonder why is the life of the chassis of a city bus so short. For comparison the life of a railway car, passenger or freight, is 35 years or more, and they can last a lot longer than that.
I’d call that a broccoli to oranges comparison.
Railway cars are accelerated relatively slowly – and then travel long distances at close to a constant speed. They also don’t contend with constant major irregularities in the road (i.e., ubiquitous potholes and debris).
Relatively even stress placed on the railway car chassis, as opposed to constant spikes to the bus chassis (same as, or worse, than an urban passenger car).
Low acceleration, but still a lot of stress as each car has to pull all of the cars behind it.
For diesel powered trains, yes; for electric MU (multiple unit) trains, each car is powered.
The electric (NOT battery) multiple unit commuter trains I ride could dust the buses that I’ve rode, so that “acceleration” argument is nonsense. Trains also tend to travel at higher speeds as well, since they aren’t operating on city streets with traffic lights, stop signs, sharp corners, auto traffic to compete with, and stops every few hundred feet.
Yes, buses take a pounding from streets that is outsized compared with the relative smoothness of railroad tracks.
Given the conditions of the roads in most major US cities I’ve been to, I’m surprised the chassis lasts as long as they do. And as Writing Observer said, there’s a big difference between the type of wear and tear that a railway car will experience vs what a vehicle on the open road will.
I drive a hybrid automobile (doesn’t need to be charged, either. Averaging 38.4 mpg combined. I have always felt that hybrids are vastly superior to any fully-electric vehicles of any type.
I drove a 1985 Chev Nova 405,000 miles it average 34 MPG back then it was a carburetor car. All I had to replace on it was struts, brakes, wiper blades, Driver side seat(it wore out) radiator, plugs, two timing belts, one timing belt idler(reason first belt failed) Carburetor rebuild(should have been replaced), high pressure power steering hose head lights and other bulbs, transmission filter and fluid and lastly regular oil changes some went to 10,000 miles at 750 miles a delaying an oil change in a before a long mile week it was fairly easy to miss a timely oil change. It would seem a well built car in the 1980s could nearly match you hybrid. In mileage and reliability. I drove it to the junk yard when I open up the trunk and could see the ground it died due to road salt.
I had an axe like that.
Lasted forever.
Just had 4 new handles and 2 new heads.
🙂
Good as new.
Good one. Had to think on it a bit.
Not sure what your metric is supposed to imply.
I have an axe that went through 3 handles in two years as my sons and their friends learned to chop trees.
One of the handles lasted one day after installation.
Kids kept out of my sight for days after I found the axe head and it’s now separate handle put back in the garage.
Little did they know at the time, that I prefer over reach swings than too short of a swing. Handles are replaceable.
It was almost as much fun as teaching them to properly swing a 16# sledgehammer to hit a star drill.
I think you missed the joke. He’s saying he replaced every part of the axe (handle and head). It’s a variation of the ship of Theseus thought experiment (known as Grandfather’s Axe) about whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object or not.
from the wikipedia entry:
Plutarch thus questions whether the ship would remain the same if it were entirely replaced, piece by piece. Centuries later, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes introduced a further puzzle, wondering what would happen if the original planks were gathered up after they were replaced, and then used to build a second ship. Hobbes asked which ship, if either, would be the original ship of Theseus.
Agree. We drive a MY 2007 Ford hybrid Escape AWD with class one tow hitch. Still going strong after 14 years and about 90k miles. Compared to the equivalent then capable V6, have saved many thousands of dollars (regular v premium, 1/3 less fuel) on top of fact that we got the whole hybrid premium back in tax rebates the year we bought it.
Proverbial no brainer.
Tax rebates, so you paid less tax and were subsidised by the majority who pay taxes and did not received subsidy for personal transport, and probably not for rooftop solar they subsidise for any neighbours who have them.
Free market capitalist system is well proven, let markets pick winners and losers on value for money, not government picking winners using taxpayer’s monies.
Better stick to elecrical engineering, Rud. There’s less energy density in premium compared to regular, and is ony preferred for it’s anti-knock qualitiy in high compression engines (or more mundane engines with terrible carbon build-up.) You were wasting money needlessly.on fuel.
I don’t know what it is you do, guido, but you should stick to that. gasoline/petrol has an energy density (or specific energy content) of about 42.4 MJ/kg. The energy density does NOT change with the RON or MON octane rating. RON 97 gasoline/petrol has the SAME energy density as RON 92 gasoline/petrol.
The energy density, however, can be higher or lower by up to 4%, depending on the fuel blend used by the refinery, and regulations set by the country. This has nothing to do with the RON or MON octane rating of the fuel, just its blend.
I agree. My 2007 hybrid has 280k miles on it (bought it with 180k) and still gets about 40mpg. Kept that one for the wife to use for short trips (instead of using the full size van needed to haul around the 7 kids) when I got a 2015 that’s averaging 45mpg (about a 50/50 split on city/highway driving). It really seems to be the best way to go for now. Quick fillups, regenerative braking, reduced fuel usage (and emissions), not adding to the load on the electrical grid at all. What’s not to like?
A good deal of the gas mileage “advantage” credited to hybrid vehicles is accounted for not by the hybrid power train, but from using lighter materials (aluminum vs. steel) for hoods, roof panels and trunk lids, and from using skinny, low rolling resistance tires, all of which could be used on a conventional ICE car to make the gas mileage difference close to nil (since the ICE car doesn’t have the weight of the batteries to haul around). All with less cost and complexity.
The F-150 hybrid is about 20% more fuel efficient than it’s standard equivalent. Not super-amazing, but still not something to dismiss. And that’s using a small (for the size of the vehicle) battery so as to not greatly impact it’s max weight capacities (towing or cargo). I also don’t believe they’re replacing steel with aluminum in those vehicles.
20 to 24 mpg doesn’t seem like much but it adds up, especially as gas prices keep going up.
I’m really surprised at how shorth the chassis life is. I can’t think of anything that would put that much stress on them. Are they under built, in order to keep weight down?
Take a ride on a city bus sometime. The local routes always stay in the right lane where all the potholes and damaged storm grates are. Buses usually can’t swerve to avoid them. If the passengers’ bottoms are taking a beating, the bus suspension and chassis are as well.
The handmaiden of engineering is economics and the notion of tradeoffs. You can make an incandescent light globe to last like that Edison one in the fire station dunny but do you still want to pay the cost of running it with unreliables power prices today? Enter nincompoop lefties who’ll tell you it’s a conspiracy of planned obsolescence by capitalist oppressors not to make the everlasting light globe when it’s so obvious that they can.
“All of the newer buses in Fort Lauderdale are hybrids bought from Europe. Batteries are on the roof, add maybe a foot of height and are air cooled.”
Lots of hills trains and bridges round Melbourne. Aus.
Regular trucks and buses get caught going under too low bridges.
Let alone add another foot of height [not that simple]
Is Fort Lauderdale nice and flat?
Lol. My man, all of Florida is nice and flat. Altamonte Springs (not ironically named) has a commanding view of the surrounding countryside at a whopping 85’ above sea level.
It’s a maddening place to visit if you’re from any location with actual hills.
Yes, south Florida is very flat.
But more relevant is that our interstates (and so state stuff) are all built to a federal 14’ 6”clearance, while the hybrid buses are at most about 12.
Very flat.
“Is Fort Lauderdale nice and flat?”
Most of Florida is Is nice and flat, unless you count sinking in swamp land in the everglades as “not flat”. 😉
How long do diesel buses last?
“How long do diesel buses last?”
Didn’t find a specific answer to how long they can last. But did find this answer:
most American transit systems expect their buses to have a useful life of 12 years and 250,000 miles. This time frame is due to the fact that, after their buses have been around for 12 years, they are eligible to receive replacement bus funding from the federal government. After twelve years, the “used up” buses are auctioned off for as little as $2,500 and frequently used for many more years by private operators.
In contrast to the United States, other countries keep their buses quite a bit longer than 12 years. Probably the main reason for this is that government funding for bus replacement has traditionally been more difficult in other industrialized countries. Sydney, Australia, has a fleet plan that counts on a bus life expectancy of 23 years. Of course, buses are used for even longer in developing countries. In those countries, as long as the bus has not collapsed in a heap of metal, it is kept in service.
“All of the newer buses in Fort Lauderdale are hybrids bought from Europe.”
Hybrids make sense.
The alarmists just can’t stomach doing something that allows the continued use of fossil fuels, even at a reduced rate. So they make the wrong choice and go with all-electric buses.
Wow – so one tenth to one sixth of the “range” the manufacturer claimed, on the LEAST demanding routes.
Wanna take bets on how much shorter that gets on the most demanding routes?!
Hilarious! That is priceless, and dang those are $$$ buses! Green dreams keep on crumbling.
Unfortunately if Biden and the useful idiots in Congress get their way, taxpayers will be funding trillions more of this utter stupidity.
If a city wants to “go green” with its bus system, they would be better off with natural-gas powered buses. They emit much less CO2 than conventional diesel-powered buses, and also also much less particulates, especially during frequent starts and stops. They also have a much longer driving range than electric buses.
The only major drawback to natural-gas powered buses is the weight of the compressed-natural gas tank, which makes it heavier than a diesel-powered bus. But their increased driving range allows the buses to be refueled at night, during periods of low demand (such as between midnight at 5 AM).
I’ve read that the engine oil lasts longer in nat gas engines, because nat gas burns cleaner.
They burn hotter because there’s no fuel vaporization in the cylinders.
Oil degrades from the engine’s heat breaking the long hydrocarbon chains. Carbon deposits simply end up in the oil filter.
I believe both LPG and gasoline engines have the same oil change maintenance schedules. After all, they typically are the same engine.
Lubricating oil picks up partially burned combustion products (from fuel as well as degraded oil itself) and the soot in the oil then “sandblasts” the lubricated engne surfaces. Oil is changed regularly to eliminate that soot, not because the oil has significantly lost lubricating ability. The oil filter only catches small animals and any chunks of metal that may have shaved off. It doesn’t do much for that soot. If it really worked well, why is oil so dirty again after just a few hours of running? (Works kinda like a mask for CoV.)
All the busses owned by the Transit Authority in my area are NG.
No Good?
GE engines are Good Enough.
If the buses don’t make the shift without a refill, it would be a problem.
Some 15 years ago I was stuck with a NG PU truck for a city job requiring 2o to 50 miles a day. The City only had one refueling station convenient to my area. It took 40 minutes or so to refuel. I had to do it at least twice a week.
The truck also ran on gasoline. After messing with the NG for a couple of weeks, I quite using it and just ran the gas, and refilled less than once a week at any of three city fuel pumps. I was a conscientious citizen and could not see wasting productive time refueling the NG. Of course the NG fueling stations and vehicles were paid for by the federal government.
I looked into putting NG into a small 4 cylinder car about 25 years ago, the cost would have been about $3,000.00 US. That included the tank and controls and the pump to fill the tank at my house overnight. I almost pulled the trigger, but decided it wasn’t worth the trouble. Although the system would have allowed you to switch between gas and NG the range with just NG would have made the car a local vehicle, like “modern” electrics,
As to buses, years ago I read that Denver had converted their busses to diesel and NG, where they would accelerate with diesel then switch to NG under the lower load of cruising speed. If I remember correctly, they were getting more miles out of the engines because the NG helped keep the engine cleaner. I tried a search for a link, but this was quite a while ago, and DDG was full of NEW stuff.
Last time I looked into converting a vehicle it cost over $50,000 just for the official approval back around 2000.
That cost goes to the EPA which “approves” LPG vehicle conversions.
The arrangement is meant for vehicle manufacturers to seek EPA LPG vehicle conversion approvals, except approvals tend to be specific to make, model, engine, and engine add-ons.
Unless the manufacture has a nice juicy national fleet deployment in the works, it does not pay for them to seek approvals for every vehicle model, engine and engine add-on versions.
Simply buying the tanks hoses and doing your own installation would get your car failed at it’s next inspection. Your registration would not have LPG capability listed.
The vehicle inspection station is likely to treat your unapproved LPG installation as a mobile bomb.
First off he said “NG”, that does not necessarily mean LNG, it could have been CNG. (and considering the time frame, “25 years ago”, and the vehicle size “a small 4 cylinder car”, it was more likely CNG than LNG)
Second. EPA approval is needed to claim the tax credit for conversion, not necessarily for passing inspection (that would depend more on the laws in your particular state which may or may nor include EPA approval). The big problem with “doing it yourself” isn’t inspection, it’s the possibly of fines for running afoul of the Clean Air Act’s rules against modifying fuel systems–a violation that could cost you up to $5000 in fines for every day you drive the converted vehicle. In short you have to go to a certified installer to do the job (which should also help with making you car “street legal” as far as inspections go).
When popular mechanics looked into the numbers for CNG conversion back in 2012, they came up with “A properly installed conversion will run anywhere from $6500 for a basic system to $12,000 for a top-of-the-line installation with a high-capacity, composite fuel tank. If you want a home fueling compressor, tack on another $3500 minimum”. So a lot closer to his 3k number than your 50k one.
The bigger the cock-up the greater the reward
Government has ZERO incentive to maintain anything. You can’t put your name on maintenance. Ever see a headline praising anyone for their vote or donation to maintain something? No, voting for an “infrastructure bill” does NOT count. Have you ever read one of those bills? A SMALL fraction for “maintenance”, the vast majority for new pork-barrel projects with the local elected employee’s name on them.
Olde Wisdom from Thee Frugal Curmudgeon
This calls for a Nelson.
Duluth Mn is the last place you’d want to use electric busses. It’s built on the side of 600 foot mountain. And it get -30 in the winter.
It’s therefore the perfect testing ground for them, so the delusion that they are a replacement for fossil fuel powered buses can quickly be destroyed, with much less waste of taxpayer money.
“Nothing ‘green’ ever works properly”
– Tim Blair
bloomin’ heck How can you spend a million bucks on a bus.. A london deisel bus costs about $400000 and they used top last about 20 years
Don’t throw them away. Stick a tow truck on the front of each one and Robert’s your relative.
Aye, and if my aunt had wheels, she’d be a proterra bus.
Well … if MY aunt had wheels she’d be a limousine. So there.
I’m sure they included maintenance staff reductions in the budget for purchasing these these marvels, right?
So, a million bucks each and they got five whole years of use out of the things? This should give anyone contemplating the purchase of an EV something to think about.
A range of 30 to 50 miles, yet the batteries are so heavy they are cracking the frame.
So much for the claim that electric busses are the perfect choices for cities.
PS: I wonder if that 30 to 50 miles was in the summer or the winter?
Summer, need to run big AC unit, heat decreases effective battery charge.
Winter, need to run big heater units, cold decreases effective battery charge,.
See above. To solve the Philly range issue, Proterra doubled the battery and the added weight cracked the chassis because was not designed for it.
That remembers me an old joke about Starfighters in Germany… 😀
The German Airforce bought a lot of Starfighters with a lot of adds, the plane wasn’t designed for, the knew that, but…..
It came what had to come…..
So, the question arised:
Do you want a Starfighter ?
Wow, yes, why not !
Buy some ground and wait.
269 crashs, 116 unnecessary regrettable deaths.
Widowmaker was it’s second name.
Now that’s a Captain Lockheed reference! A great song on a great album from a great bunch of musicians.
Germany used to be renowned for its engineering. It seems to have gone downhill at a rapid pace.
Jan. 12, 2018
German Engineering Yields New Warship That Isn’t Fit for Sea
Navy refuses to commission frigate after it failed sea trials; critics cite fiasco in conception and execution
Jan. 12, 2018
https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-engineering-yields-new-warship-that-isnt-fit-for-sea-1515753000
[
Defense experts cite the warship’s buggy software and ill-considered arsenal—as well as what was until recently its noticeable list to starboard—as symptoms of deeper, more intractable problems: Shrinking military expertise and growing confusion among German leaders about what the country’s armed forces are for.
A litany of bungled infrastructure projects has tarred Germany’s reputation for engineering prowess. There is still no opening date for Berlin’s new €6 billion ($7.2 billion) airport, which is already 10 years behind schedule, and the redesign of Stuttgart’s railway station remains stalled more than a decade after work on the project started. Observers have blamed these mishaps on poor planning and project management, which also figured in major setbacks for several big military projects.
German military procurement is “one hell of a complete disaster,” said Christian Mölling, a defense-industry expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin. “It will take years to sort this problem out.”
The naval fiasco, on a project with a €3 billion price tag, is particularly startling since Europe’s largest exporter relies on open and secure shipping lanes to transport its goods.
Here is an article about a failed electric school bus program in Massachusetts.
EXCERPT
ELECTRIC SCHOOL BUS SYSTEMS NOT COST-EFFECTIVE IN NEW ENGLAND AND CANADA
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at
Vermont’s Governor: “Investing in more energy-efficient public transportation is important for our economy and environment,” the governor said. He added that the COVID money is enabling the transportation agency to replace as many as 30 buses and fund energy-efficient projects.”
http://www.truenorthreports.com/governor-and-senators-seeking-more-…
NOTE: Each $325,000 electric school bus reduces CO2 by about 10 metric ton/y, compared to a $100,000 diesel bus. Vermont has much better CO2 reduction options. See Appendix.
The Vermont House Energy/Environment Committee, the VT Transportation Department, VEIC, EAN, etc., echo the same message, to “convince” legislators, people in the Governor’s Office, and Vermonters, to use COVID money and Volkswagen Settlement money to buy expensive electric buses to deal with a minor pollution problem in a few urban areas in Vermont.
Such an electric vehicle measure would be much more appropriate in the over-crowded, down-town Boston Area and the Connecticut Gold Coast.
The cabal urge Vermonters to buy electric buses at about:
$750,000 – $1,000,000 per mass-transit bus, plus high-speed charging systems.
A standard diesel mass-transit bus costs $380,000 – $420,000
$330,000 – $375,000, per school bus, plus high-speed charging systems.
A standard diesel/gasoline school bus costs about $100,000
https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Electric-Buses-a…
“Free” Federal COVID Money for Expensive Electric School Buses
The Governor and bureaucrats are throwing COVID money, meant for suffering households and businesses, into another climate-fighting black hole.
Spending huge amounts of capital on various projects that yield minor reductions in CO2, is a recipe for low economic efficiency, and for low economic growth, on a state-wide and nation-wide scale, which would adversely affect state and US competitiveness in markets, and adversely affect living standards and job creation.
Costs of Government RE Programs
Vermont’s government engaging in electric bus demonstration programs, financed with COVID money, likely would prove to be expensive undertakings, requiring hidden subsidies, white-washing and obfuscation.
Lifetime spreadsheets, with 1) turnkey capital costs, 2) annual cashflows, 3) annual energy cost savings, 4) annual CO2 reductions, and 5) cost of CO2 reduction/metric ton, with all assumptions clearly stated and explained, likely will never see the light of day.
Including Amortizing Capital Cost for a Rational Approach to Projects
RE proponents do not want to include amortizing costs, because it makes the financial economics of their dubious climate projects appear dismal. This is certainly the case with expensive electric buses. If any private-enterprise business were to ignore amortizing costs, it would be out of business in a short time, per Economics 101
Capital cost of electric bus, plus charger, $327,500 + $25,000 = $352,500
Battery system cost, $100,000, for a 60 to 80-mile range.
Capital cost of diesel bus, $100,000
Additional capital cost, 352500 – 100000 = $252,500
Travel, 12,000 miles/y, the average of diesel school buses in Vermont.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310
Charging Electric Vehicles During Freezing Conditions
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at
School Bus Normal Operation at 32F and below: On cold/freezing days, an electric bus would use on-board systems to heat the battery, as needed, during its daily route.
EV Parking: When at home, it is best to keep EVs plugged in during periods with 32F and below, whether parked indoors or outdoors.
When parking at a motel, or an airport, it is best to fully charge EVs prior to parking, to enable the on-board systems to heat the battery, as needed, during parking.
Charging at 32F and below: Li-ion batteries must not be charged when the batterytemperature is at 32F or less.
Turn on “pre-conditioning”, i.e., the battery heating/cooling system (which could be a heat pump) very slowly heats up the battery to about 40F. After the battery is “up to temperature”, normal charging can be started, either at home, or on the road.
Pre-conditioning can be set to:
1) Preheat the car cabin and/or seats
2) Defrost windshield wipers, windows, door handles and charge port, etc.; Tesla has a charge port heater. See URL
https://getoptiwatt.com/news/tesla-extreme-weather-considerations-how-to-optimize-your-tesla-driving-for-winter-months/
Power Failure, while parked at 32F and below: Partially charged batteries, connected to dead chargers, could use much of their remaining charge to prevent freezing of batteries.
See URLs.
NOTE: Li-ions (pos.) are absorbed by the anode (neg.) at lesser rates at a batterytemperature of 32F and below. Any excess Li-ions plate out on the anode, which further reduces the absorption rate. This condition increases charging percentage, increases kWh/mile, and reduces range. This condition is permanent, i.e., cannot be reversed.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/12/electric-bus-inferno-in-hanover-germanyexplosive-fire-causes-millions-in-damages/
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/263036/why-charging-li-ion-batteries-in-cold-temperatures-would-harm-them
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures
NOTE:
– Batteries have miscellaneous losses to provide electricity to on-board systems, similar to Tesla and other EVs
– On cold/freezing days, an electric bus should be ready for service as soon as the driver enters the bus
– On cold/freezing days, the driver would need at least 70% charge, because travel would require more energy per mile
NOTE:
If the battery temperature is less than 40F or more than 115F, it will use more kWh/mile
The higher efficiency range, charging and discharging, is 60F to 80F.
Batteries have greater internal resistance at lower temperatures.
Pro-bus folks often point to California regarding electric buses, but in New England, using electric buses to transport children would be a whole new ballgame, especially on colder days. See URLs
NOTE: Where would the electricity come from to charge and protect from cold, expensive batteries during extended electricity outages, due to multi-day, hot and cold weather events, with minimal wind and sun, as occur in California, Texas and New England?
Emergency standby diesel-generators? Emergency standby batteries?
https://www.wired.com/story/electric-cars-cold-weather-tips/
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127610_keep-your-parked-electric-car-and-its-battery-healthy-with-these-simple-tips
Oh just put the EV buses in garages heated by…fossil fuels! LMFAO.
Maybe they should have tried this softball test before committing millions of taxpayer dollars.
I suspect that this WAS the small scale softball test. 24 busses is not much for a city the size of Philadelphia, and given that they only ran the two routes, that implies that the rest of the city was still on diesel.
Even a softball test costs millions when you’re talking significant infrastructure for a large city. You need enough busses to see how they work on average, which means a decent sized statistical sample. 25 busses is a reasonable number for that. It’s just that these are ~1 million dollar busses, which means ANY test with more than one of them is multiple million taxpayer dollars committted.
Good points.
“The next stop is… Recycle Depot.”
More like “The Next Stop is…Landfill.”
Duluth ultimately pulled its seven buses from service “because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill,”
Well that sounds like such fun – you’re in the bus with your children and it starts rolling backwards down the hill. Do you sit still and enjoy the ride until you hit something, or try to jump out with your kids before the bus accelerates too fast?
Maybe you grab a couple of idiot city councilors and throw them under the tires to try to slow the bus? Nah, probably would not work – you’d need the entire city council.
(Do I have to say sarc/off?)
Are you implying they’re a bunch of lightweights? Shocking, I say, shocking.
Well, assuming said council members were the ones that approved the stupid battery powered buses, it would be a fine example of those who deserve to be “thrown under the bus.” 😀
Another shoot, ready, aim for the AGW believers.
Another stellar success by Jennifer Grandstand🤪
From the Duluth Monitor
“Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.”
Why didn’t they just install diesel generators?
https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/19/electric-bus-pilot-project-reveals-problems/
Or diesel MOTORS?!
Here is a MUST READ EV anecdote
Briglin is an eager-beaver RE nut in Vermont, unfortunately the Chairman of the House E&E Committee
He has been bragging about his EV and that everyone should buy one. Then his EV CAUGHT FIRE
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/some-ne-state-governments-play-deceptive-games-with-co2-emissions
THETFORD; July 2, 2021 — A fire destroyed a 2019 Chevy Bolt, owned by state Rep. Tim Briglin, D-Thetford, Chairman of the House Committee on Energy and Technology.
He had plugged his 2019 Chevy Bolt into his 240-volt outdoor charger.
The battery was at 10% charge at start of charging, at 8 PM, and he had charged it to 100% charge at 4 AM (8 hours of charging!!)
NOTE: Charging to 100% not only use more kWh AC per kWh DC in the battery, but also heats up your battery, i.e., a shorter life and less range sooner.
He was lucky, it was not parked in his garage.
Firefighters were called to Briglin’s Tucker Hill Road home around 9 AM Thursday. See Note
Investigators from the Vermont Department of Public Safety Fire and Explosion Investigation Unit determined:
1) The fire started in a compartment in the back of the passenger’s side of the vehicle
2) It was likely due to an electrical failure.
In 2020, GM issued a recall of nearly 68,667 Chevy Bolts, 2017, 2018 and 2019 models.
Owners are advised not to charge them in a garage, and not to leave them unattended while charging, which may take up to 8 hours; what a nuisance!
NOTE:
EV batteries should be charged from 20% to 80% charge, for minimal degradation and long life.
EV batteries shall not be charged, when the battery temperature is less than 32F; if charged anyway, the battery would be permanently damaged.
See section Charging Electric Vehicles During Freezing Conditions in URL
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/some-ne-state-governments-play-deceptive-games-with-co2-emissions
https://www.vnews.com/Firefighters-put-out-blaze-in-car-of-Vt-State-Representative-41272606
https://www.engadget.com/gm-chevy-bolt-fire-warning-215322969.html
https://electrek.co/2020/11/13/gm-recall-chevy-bolt-evs-potential-fire-risk/
“He has been bragging about his EV and that everyone should buy one.”
Should every EV owner burn her/his vehicle every two years, there is no need for the rest of us to go electric.
So pretty much useless north of say, Florida. SMH!
I’m sure that’s another “gotcha!” regarding the specified “range” they use to sell EV garbage – that is probably calculated based on 100% charge, which they then tell you not to do. :-I
Inadequate long-term testing. Rather like than not carried out by Mr. Pfizer!
I agree with your sentiment. On the other hand, would you prefer a face mask for five years?
Now, we have to wear face masks again along with vaccinations. So it is apparent that neither work as advertised, just like electric buses.
What about: leave people alone? There was never anything remotely close to a pandemic.
“the weight of the powerful battery was cracking the vehicles’ chassis, and the battery life was insufficient for the city’s bus routes. ”
Have they dumbed down or dispensed with engineers? Chassis breaking because of weight of batteries. Insufficient range to complete a route. As a mining engineer, even I could have pre-determined these failures.
Buses on city streets are different than on a company’s test track. Hit a few potholes and multiply the actual load of the batteries. Apply the brakes sharply a dozen times a day and the forward torque of the battery load compresses the forward mounts and lifts on the rear ones repeatedly.Take a few hundred right and left turns at intersections and sideways torque loads one side of the chassis in compression and the other in tension repeatedly.
What was done here was to concentrate on chiseling off as much overall weight from the bus as possible to get driving range. The chassis was one they over did.
Almost anything else but a chassis failure could probably be fixed and modified. These are shear/fatigue failures so the buses that haven’t failed yet also need to be taken out of service. The range problem has to be dealt with though.
For cities electrifying their fleets, get 3 buses early in the contract and run them on your most demanding route for 3yrs. Then have them taken apart and thoroughly inspected for field info for the manufacturer to make modifications.
Yeah, but the electricity likely comes from coal so what’s the point?
Yeah, I agree with you there, Griff, coal power didn’t fail.
“As a mining engineer, even I could have pre-determined these failures.”
Hell, as a software engineer (which is nowhere near the level of rigor required for physical engineering) I could have predicted them.
I’m not any kind of an engineer, and I could figure out that multiplying the battery pack weight by two was going to be a problem.
That won’t work, because the battery powered buses won’t be able to run your most demanding routes – which should tell you everything you need to know about what a bad idea they are!
What about the emissions from manufacturing? They never seem to talk about those. I’ve asked people in these cars and all I get is a dumb look.
I park in the ‘Low Emision & Electric vehicles only” spaces all the time.
I thought by now I would have to explain to some idgit that, given the manufacturing emissions and the 370,000 miles on the Tahoe (small suburban), it has a lower overall emission rate than whatever they drive.
AT 13 mpg it may not be true, but I’m still lookn forward to telling the story.
They give EVs the close parking so they don’t run out of charge looking for parking spaces and clog up the lot.
From the above article:
“Even those routes needed buses to pull around 100 miles each day, while the Proterras were averaging just 30 to 50 miles per charge . . . Officials also quickly realized there wasn’t room at the ends of either route for charging stations.”
One mighty fine example of the average IQ level of bureaucrats! Philadelphia’s taxpayers and businesses should take pride that it only cost them $25 million or so to re-discover this age-old fact.
A quick search reveals widespread problems with EV buses everywhere. The bursting into flame of the fleet of German buses, to me, is the one I would be most concerned about. You can always get off a bus that’s run out of juice.
When the famous laptop burst into flames on an airliner, specifications for battery chemicals changed that reduced transition element impurities in the lithium carbonate feedstock for battery manufacture to single digit ppm and lower and the industry also began switching from lithium carbonate to lithium hydroxide as the preferred starting chemical.
An important thing to ask for by a prospective customer for a bus fleet is the battery manufacturer’s specifications for its battery chemicals to have these checked for details of acceptable impurities. Breakdowns are a nuisance for passengers but a battery fire could be a disaster. The rough ride a big battery gets in a bus is something I’m not familiar with in terms of fire risk, but I’d be worried about it.
It still took several incidents, some quite serious, to do something about the 777. Under Obama’s watch, under the EU’s watch (who was “president” of Europe? nobody knows!!!!).
And they dared accuse Trump‘s FAA to not be vigilant with Boeing…
Everything is Trump’s fault…
If it weren’t for Trump’s policies and arrogance, Hunter would not be smokn all the crack; and little sister wouldn’t have memories of showering with dad.
What was wrong with the 777?
“What was wrong with the 777?”
As I recall, it used a lithium battery for one of it’s systems, and they developed a nasty habit of bursting into flames, sometimes actually in flight!
Ever wonder why there is not much talk about recycling Lithium type batteries?
Here is more than you want to know.
Recycling lithium-ion batteries from electric vehicles | Nature
and
The Race To Crack Battery Recycling—Before It’s Too Late | WIRED
and
It’s time to get serious about recycling lithium-ion batteries (acs.org)
Can they make a solar or wind powered incinerator? Just sayin>
The stock price is about 1/3 of its peak in January 2021.
This is what is meant by a green new deal.
[In some places the bus drivers were classed as “green jobs”.]
AS I like to call it (and more accurately), the “Green Screw-Steal.”
Why does it remind me the Monorail affair from Springfield, Simpsons?
Who is the most abominable character in the Simpsons, and why is it Lisa?
Philly has of lot overhead wires from trackless trolleys to handle much of this. I don’t know why that was not used. The buses, were 100% crap from the start.
I like the blue color. Bought a Subaru Crosstrek that color.
It worked as advertised.
50 shades of Boeing Max. Also, no durable testing to establish safety… viability profiles. Just do it. Deja vu.
As usual, the crowd here is celebrating the failure of at least some electric buses even though someone actively using the thought process would realize that this says nothing about the feasibility of electric bus technology generally. I have no opinion on the matter because I know so little about it, but I will not be surprised if electric busses become more and more commonplace. There is certainly an advantage to using them in cities since the are cleaner and quieter (within the city). Does it make an iota of difference to global warming; very unlikely. Someday the truth of global warming/climate change will become more clear to everyone and all this fussing will fade away. I, unfortunately, will not live to see this.
Electric trains and trams work fine
Just not compatible with personal or business vehicle use on the on the same road.
Eventually the E-Bus will be useful. 10 years?
The story here is throwing money at something just to see if it sticks.
Capital will be available when the technology begins to seem promising.
If Philly spent its own money I wouldn’t mind.
Tye fact is that battery technology in terms of watt hours per kilogram is approaching very close to theoretical limits.
Battery cars never will match furl cars for range.
This says everything about the feasibility of electric bus technology generally.
The batteries are not big enough, and when they made them bigger, the bus performance was totally degraded and it cracked its carbon fibre chassis.
regen braking is all very well but it isn’t 100% efficient and stopping and starting a heavy bus inherently uses more electricity than cruising along a freeway.
Who cares what the actual data shows? Buses will succeed because Tom wants them to succeed.
As to the truth of global warming, once again Tom couldn’t care less about what the actual data is. He believes it is true, therefor it will someday be proven to be true.
Spoken like a true believer. (But not a believer in science.)
They should have known the obvious with EVs and heavy loads-
Why Are Electric Cars So Bad At Towing? (lifehacker.com.au)
It’s why they’re working hard on hydrogen tech for heavy transport earthmoving mining etc as battery tech will never cut it.
At least no fires yet. I read of similar problems elsewhere in the USA with competing brands. High maintenance, and range issues.
At least these ones didn’t catch fire.
https://notrickszone.com/2021/06/11/electric-bus-inferno-in-hanover-germany-explosive-fire-causes-millions-in-damages/
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/12/electric-bus-inferno-in-hanover-germanyexplosive-fire-causes-millions-in-damages/
The purpose was to spend money on Green Energy. Mission accomplished.
As long as you’re not deluded enough to actually think “Green Energy” is actually “green.”
Come on. That’s a joke, right? No one designs a vehicle that can’t support its own power train. Do they?
Cracked carbon fibre chassis are a feature of formula one cars that ride the kerbs too much.
Like electric buses, they too are pushing the weight as low as they can.
Sounds like another obummer boondoggle with the company heading to bankruptcy.
giffie poo rank ignorance specious claims:
South Philly is not hilly at all. If the bus routes included the hillier parts of the city, they might have discovered the green fraud much much quicker.
Electric busses. We call ’em “trams” in these backwoods parts.
Or trolley busses.
Just piss poor engineering and maintenance I would bet didn’t help.. While I don’t like the nannyness of my wife’s coal powered Chevy Volt it just works and works well.
It is important to note the EV Industry messages, to begin that as volume sales increase these vehicles will become cheaper to buy … message from the renewable energy handbook. please consider what an EV really is, they are conventional vehicles or cars with battery system and electric motors replacing the internal combustion engine and drive train, not new technology for construction and suspension, brakes, etc. So compare the engineering and ask why EV is at the cheapest end more than double a conventional vehicle price. It’s the batteries of course, and ignoring disposal cost and environmental considerations as compared to recycling metals. And that a battery system weighs far more than a metal fuel tank full of fuel to travel the same distance.
Next that range is not important because the average car driver does 34 km a day … so explain why larger capacity and increasingly heavier and more expensive batteries are being offered, why not a 100 km range and savings resulting?
That the more EV sales increase the sooner a recharging network will grow in number of sites and number of charger points …. when Henry released his Model T Ford drivers could carry a couple of cans of “gasoline” on the running boards, what can EV drivers do if they travel to areas where no charging convenience is available?
Like all climate hoax programmes EV is the imperfect solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
In the event anyone wants to hear about real world hybrid car experience here is a bit.
When wife bought her Chevy Volt in 2014 we were ignorant of the battery fire potential.
However DDG doesn’t seem to know of any Volt fires in the wild.
It has two complete though interdependent power trains so the cost is high.
Judging from incident reports it is far better made than the Tesla.
At that time gasoline was $4/gal, and with the portion of our tax dollars the feds decided to let us retain as reward for buying the car, it made financial sense. Now with the current regime driving fuel prices back up again it (unfortunately) again makes financial sense. It made her 30mi commute up hill steep hills and down entirely on battery power even in cold (but not frigid) weather yet we regularly drive 1020mi down I-75 at 80mph to our escape pod in SW Florida. IMO having driven about half of the 90kmi on the Volt it is an excellent very conservatively engineered machine and with electric motor torque it is fun to drive. GM had to use high nickle brake rotors because they aren’t used much and would otherwise rust away… We don’t have a large family. We have an all electric house so the charging current doesn’t even show. And we won’t buy another hybrid/EV. I fear the day when it starts having problems as it can turn into an expensive driveway ornament in milliseconds as it cannot drive as a pure gasoline powered vehicle. No battery no go.
(My daily driver is a cute little low mileage 1984 GMC S15.)
Fixed it for you.
If they ever want to try something that actually works they should check out
wrightspeed.com
A drivetrain with electric for max torque at the low end and any one of a variety of fossil fuels to run the generator. Very slick and perfect for any large 3+ ton truck that makes a lot of stops. Garbage, recycling and busses come to mind.
Chattanooga, TN established a downtown loop that runs between the old railroad station and the aquarium, and another loop that goes across the river. Aside from an initial Federal transportation grant to start the electric shuttle bus system in the 1990’s, it’s been funded by a cut of the parking lot fees and donation boxes at the stations and on the shuttle buses. There’s no cost to ride them.
The initial buses used lead acid batteries. Those were either upgraded to NiCd or replaced with new buses. They’ve been phasing out the NiCd powered ones with new LiIon powered. New motor technology and other things make it impractical to replace the Nickel Cadmium batteries with Lithium Ion. Not much more $$$ for a whole new bus and of course a new bus doesn’t need a total rebuild after hundreds of thousands of miles.
The Lithium Ion powered buses can run the route all day (6:30 AM to 11:00 PM weekdays, shorter on weekends) where the Nickel Cadmium ones had to hit a charger for a while at least once a day and the Lead Acid ones required more frequent charging. IIRC they did battery pack swaps in about 30 minutes with the Lead Acid ones but the newer models no longer needed that. Regenerative braking going downhill from the stop at the railroad station, and at every stop on the loop, likely helps that endurance.
This whole climate alarmist enterprise is a Barbarossa against reality.
No matter how many resources they commit, it wont be anywhere near enough.
And Stalingrad is waiting at the end of the road.
It’ll be fun to watch though.
Sounds like the city didn’t even think about where they would be used before they ordered them. Half of this failure is just poor planning. Of course if anyone thought that far ahead then no-one would order these buses in the first place!
And Jennifer Granholm is in charge of our ENERGY Department. God help us.
The wheels on the bus don’t go round, don’t go round.
When will the “Green New Dealers” realize that WISHING an electric bus or car can replace the internal combustion engine DOES NOT make it true.
Do the buses even have Solar Panels on the roof? I reckon you could fit at least 1kw – that should add another 10 miles to the daytime range
On cloudy days, it’ll just add more weight to haul around, as if the batteries weren’t enough.
There is a wee fly in the ointment with lithium battery tech touted to save us all from the dooming-
Piedmont Lithium price plunges 20pc, goes into trading halt on ‘project block’ threat (msn.com)
You have to actually mine and process the stuff in BIG quantities Greenies.
I know the former manager of a local transit company personally and we discussed the electric bus issues often. The first e-buses they used had a range of about 30 miles, so they installed charging stations at each end of the route so the bus would charge while stopped for passengers. The next generation of buses had ~150 mile range and could run pretty much all day and charge overnite. But one of the major problems was that during winter the range collapsed due to cabin heating. The real numbers showed that maintenance and operating costs were significantly better than their diesel fleet, mostly due to engine service and brake service reduction (the machinery of the e-bus is much simpler). The initial cost of the e-bus was higher. But overall, for the life of the bus, the e-bus was cheaper. Based on this experience, I am not surprised that these struggle in northern climates. My take: e-buses aren’t ready for prime-time, and likely never will be, but hybrid buses are. Adding a diesel generator set addresses both the range and winter heating issues, and the stop and go braking issues, and the running cost issues. The additional cost of the d-g set is offset by a smaller battery.
Electrifying a bus service is a “whole systems” problem that goes beyond the kit that the punter sits in. Shenzhen in China has 16,000 electric buses
“There’s a lot less moving parts”
I guess there aren’t ANY moving parts on these pieces of junk.
Just in Proterra works well in CA. https://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/proterra-bus-fire-prompts-california-agency-to-consider-shelving-electric-bus-fleet/ Melting in the California sun. Just found this article at Gateway Pundit.