Causation Of Climate Change: Was The Medieval Warm Period “Regional”?

Reposted from the MANHATTAN CONTRARIAN

January 03, 2021 / Francis Menton

Some commenters yesterday noted that the climate establishment has not just completely ignored the threat to their orthodoxy posed by the Medieval Warm Period and other similarly-warm pre-human-emissions eras. Initially, there was recognition that this issue could be important, and there was definitely some attempt to deal with it. However, over time, the accumulation of evidence, particularly as to the existence Medieval Warm Period as a global phenomenon, gradually became overwhelming.

So — in the face of evidence that, under the normal precepts of the scientific method, would be deemed to invalidate the hypothesis that only human CO2 emissions could be causing current warming — how can the orthodoxy be kept alive? The answer, almost entirely, has been to resort to the hand-waving of “detection and attribution” studies, and hope nobody notices. And, to a remarkable extent, nobody notices.

Readers may be interested in a short history of this issue.

  • The initial IPCC Assessment Reports that came out in the 1990s contained graphs of climate history showing that the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than the current period, despite the human CO2 emissions in the current period. In the late 90s, the clique of climate “scientists” principally responsible for preparation of the next IPCC report, due in 2001, recognized this as a problem.
  • In approximately 1996, a scientist named David Deming received an email from a member of the inside clique named Jonathan Overpeck. Deming later described the email in testimony before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. Deming’s testimony is quoted in a 2013 post at Watts Up With That as follows: “With the publication of the article in Science [in 1995], I gained significant credibility in the community of scientists working on climate change. They thought I was one of them, someone who would pervert science in the service of social and political causes. So one of them let his guard down. A major person working in the area of climate change and global warming sent me an astonishing email that said “We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period.” According to the WUWT post, Deming did not specifically identify Overpeck in his testimony, but “rumors” began to circulate that the email had come from Overpeck. Overpeck then denied sending such an email. However, after Overpeck made the denial, another email surfaced, this one from Overpeck to Keith Briffa (another member of the inside climate clique) dated in 2005, in which Overpeck said “I’m not the only one who would like to deal a mortal blow to the misuse of supposed warm period terms and myths in the literature.”
  • In 1998 and 1999, Michael Mann and co-authors published two articles in Nature giving temperature reconstructions going back to the year 1000 and beyond. Contained in these articles was a graph of a temperature reconstruction for the Northern Hemisphere going back to the year 1000. The graph showed that temperatures had remained essentially flat from the year 1000 to approximately 1940, after which there was a sharp upward spike in the most recent years. In other words, the Medieval Warm Period had disappeared. This graph quickly became known as the “Hockey Stick” after its iconic shape.
  • In 2001 the IPCC came out with its Third Assessment Report of world climate. The Hockey Stick graph had totally taken over the narrative, appearing as the lead graph in the Summary for Policy Makers and at multiple other places throughout the Report. The abolishment of the MWP was never mentioned as such, but astute observers could easily see how the graph solved the problem of the gaping logical flaw in any argument that recent warming could only have been caused by human CO2 emissions. A version of the Hockey Stick graph that appeared in the Third Assessment Report in 2001 appears at the end of this post.
  • Over the course of the next about five years, the basis for Mann’s Hockey Stick graph was gradually and thoroughly destroyed. A longer version of the story appears in a post I did in 2019 here. The unraveling began in about 2003 with a very talented Canadian mathematician named Stephen McIntyre trying to replicate Mann’s work, and putting in a request for Mann’s full data and methods. McIntyre was met with refusal and hostility. McIntyre then set about the very laborious process of trying to replicate Mann’s work without access to the data and methods, and ultimately established that Mann had used flawed statistical methods and had cherry-picked data to get the reconstruction he wanted.
  • After the demolition of the Hockey Stick, an alternative narrative was needed to support the position that the Medieval Warm Period had not existed. By 2009 Hockey Stick lead creator Mann had shifted to the new narrative, namely that evidence for the MWP only came from certain limited “regions” and therefore the era could not be said to have been a world-wide warm period such as the current era. Here is a 2009 piece from Penn State News (Penn State is where Mann teaches), quoting Mann as follows: “These terms can be misleading,” said Mann. “Though the Medieval period appears modestly warmer globally in comparison with the later centuries of the Little Ice Age, some key regions were in fact colder. For this reason, we prefer to use ‘Medieval Climate Anomaly’ to underscore that, while there were significant climate anomalies at the time, they were highly variable from region to region.”
  • Good try. The effort to diminish the MWP as merely “regional” has inspired several organizations and individuals in response to compile lists of research papers covering all areas of the world and reconstructing temperatures from the approximate MWP years of 1000 to 1250. One of the most comprehensive collections I am aware of has been compiled by Craig Idso at the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change. Idso has listed well over 100 studies from literally every corner of the world, organized under categories that include Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Europe, North America, Northern Hemisphere, Oceans, and South America. As with the Hockey Stick graph, the idea that the MWP was merely “regional” has been thoroughly demolished.

The dozens upon dozens of studies compiled by Idso and others have put the promoters of the “human causation” hypothesis in a nearly impossible position. One study, or two, or five, might be flawed and/or easily refutable. But more than a hundred? And from all over the world?

And thus once again the promoters of the “human causation” hypothesis have changed the subject. Now instead of following the scientific method of attempting to falsify the hypothesis, we talk about the mumbo jumbo of “detection and attribution” studies. As of now, that seems to have fooled almost all of academia, the media, journalists, Hollywood celebrities, and billionaires. Also the incoming President.

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John Tillman
January 4, 2021 2:12 pm

Not just the Medieval Warm Period but prior such excursions in the Holocene and previous interglacials, with cool intervals in between, show the Modern Warming well within natural fluctuation.

Similar secular trends and counter-cycles within them are even more pronounced during glaciations.

Hence, the null hypothesis can’t be rejected.

fred250
Reply to  John Tillman
January 4, 2021 2:39 pm

Yep, Has been COOLING for the last 3000+ years.

The occasional warm period gets less and less warm

…. ie Minoan, Roman, MWP, and the Modern SLIGHTLY warm period.

MarkW
Reply to  fred250
January 4, 2021 3:37 pm

Throw in the Egyptian Warm Period and you get cooling for the last 5000 years.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  MarkW
January 4, 2021 10:21 pm

Throw in the Holocene Thermal optimum and you get nearly twice that duration of continuous cooling. If that doesn’t show a trend of natural global variation culminating in the present era’s infatuation with with nonsense science, nothing ever will. The greenhouse effect is window dressing for fraud.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 5, 2021 4:28 am

“The greenhouse effect is window dressing for fraud.”

Good way to put it.

menace
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 5, 2021 8:12 am

“Holocene Thermal optimum” aka “Holocene climactic optimum”…

Optimum has two definitions (Merriam-Webster)
1) the amount or degree of something that is most favorable to some end
2) greatest degree attained or attainable under implied or specified conditions

I suppose to scientists definition 2 would be applicable. However to the average person they think of definition 1. Thus a warmer earth is more favorable.

Other definitions such as dictionary.com suggest it literally means best for life…
the best or most favorable point, degree, amount, etc., as of temperature, light, and moisture for the growth or reproduction of an organism.

So when most people see “Holocene climactic optimum” they think “warmer is better for life”. But the other side would say no we mean definition #2. Shows how language often can be confusing/ambiguous.

However it is very likely that both of the definitions can be applied truthfully in this case.

Reply to  menace
January 5, 2021 9:01 am

Of course the optimums are more favorable except to misanthropes that despise humans or apparently life in general. What’s better, massive glaciers smothering vast areas of land, or at least tundra or even boreal forests instead. And much more open oceans able to support phytoplankton & the resulting sea-life. In addition, glacial periods even reduced tropical rainforests to smaller areas mixed w/savannas due to drying out.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  menace
January 5, 2021 9:05 am

Nope, sorry but the first definition is the correct interpretation of “optimum” in this context. A (true) scientist would not turn to such convoluted abuse of language as to use “optimum” if the second “definition” were intended; they would have just called it the Holocene Thermal Maximum” if that’s all they meant.

Warmer climate IS better for life. Frozen wastelands do not support much of it.

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
January 5, 2021 6:19 pm

Optimum is a value judgement. Scientific procedures are not big on social opinions of what is optimal. We can say there was a thermal maximum without judging how wonderful it was to live in one. Maybe society did best in moderate conditions. It is moderate now. And we have done pretty well over the last 170 years.

David A
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
January 6, 2021 12:40 am

It would appear logical that definition number two would be meaningless as applied to climate. The climate is always optimum in the form of number two’s definition, in that climate is always what the input factors and laws of physics say it shoud be, regardless of human understanding.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  menace
January 5, 2021 10:14 am

I’m afraid it would never be referred to as the “Holocene climactic optimum”. I think you’re trying to say CLIMATIC optimum. Using “climactic” makes no sense. Of your two definitions, #1 is clearly the intended sense of the phrase for the reasons outlined by others on this thread.

Jeremy Poynton
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 1:34 am

7K! Each warm periods is cooler than the preceding one. Interstadials = rapid temperature rise, then gradual fall punctuated with warm periods. Enjoy them while we still have them!

https://edmhdotme.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/the-holocene-context-for-anthropogenic-global-warming-2/

Reply to  John Tillman
January 4, 2021 4:47 pm

Hence, why Trenberth et al are desperate to reverse the null hypothesis.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 4, 2021 10:24 pm

Such people no doubt also believe the the entire scientific method is a flexible model requiring interpretation for allow for the use of logical fallacies when necessary.

fred250
January 4, 2021 2:25 pm

NTZ has a huge compendiums of papers showing the MWP was GLOBAL….

… and WARMER than the current climate

Here are 3 from widely separate regions

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January 4, 2021 2:35 pm

All the proxies for tropical ocean temperature clearly define the regulation of the upper limit on the tropical ocean surface temperature. This chart is one of a number that provide a similar picture:
http://co2science.org/data/mwp/images/l1_indopacific.gif

The tropical oceans have very tight limit on the maximum SST.

Reply to  RickWill
January 4, 2021 2:43 pm

This is the Makassar Strait reconstruction. Same clear indication that top SST limit is near 30C for tropical ocean.

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Tom Abbott
Reply to  RickWill
January 5, 2021 4:33 am

It appears that pictures ending in “.jpg” will show up in the comment, whereas, pictures that end in “.gif” will not, only showing the link. Interesting.

January 4, 2021 2:36 pm

This topic hangs on like a bad smell. Despite the ‘Regional’ Mediaeval Warming Period Theory being demolished by Worldwide evidence and studies by Craig Idso at the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change and many others, the desperate Alarmists keep repeating the lie to try to resuscitate the moribund Hockey Stick. The Hockey Stick is Zombie Science.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
January 4, 2021 5:43 pm

No Hockey Stick chart = No CO2/Climate crisis

David A
Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
January 5, 2021 12:27 am

Yes. The documentation of the MWP was fairly extensive long before Mann’s hockey stick. The MWP was generally accepted. Mann’s infamous hockey stick demolished the MWP without the courtesy of a “how do you do” as Mann’s work never began to address well known studies contrary to his fradulant assertions. ( In other words Mann simply ignored established peer review research that countered his political science assertions.). Sheesh, Mann nixed the LIA as well, and in the same manner!

In Craig Idso’s intiall constructions some criticised that not all the evidence covered the same portions of time. While this was a true assertion, it was, on careful analysis, not a strong refute of the MWP. In the decade plus since, many more reconstructions have been completed, and it is quite well established now that the MWP was real and more global then the current mild warming. ( Which has very possibly peaked)

January 4, 2021 2:48 pm

The MWP is one of the favorite dead horses deniers have in this never ending gish gallop. Guys, MWP was a hypothesis first discussed in the mid 60s. It wasn’t like Thomas Aquinas or the Plantagenets were talking about “how good we live in the MWP thanks god”. It wasn’t something common sense or commonly known up to very recent times. It was hypothesized from historic sources and from the very earliest Paleo-climatology research. The Manhattan Nutcase is insulting our collective intelligence… So, this field of science has had an extreme development in the last few decades. Now we have modern and quite precise reconstructions (coming from leading paleo-climatologists like Mann) and we know there was MWP, yes, here and there. It turned out it wasn’t global.
Actually, the MWP and the other warm periods are good demonstrations for the phenomenon of “deniers being consistently inconsistent”. The fact that we know about climate anomalies is the result of climate science, the very field you try to deny by screaming EMDUBIYAPEE and the like.
Part of the gish gallop is these collections of papers like the one referenced above. These are valid scientific papers but they simply don’t prove the claim the web site editors tried to prove. Please read at least few of the papers to get a glimpse why.

mikebartnz
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:01 pm

What a load of diarrhea.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  mikebartnz
January 4, 2021 3:20 pm

Nyolci, his dribble comment, or both? I vote for both.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:06 pm

ROFLMAO..

nyholist regurgitates another load of EVIDENCE-FREE tripe

The only thing it is capable of.

EVIDENCE means nothing to those who’s mind is made of greenie sludge.

Actual real evidence MUST BE DENIED to remain an AGW acco-lite !!

MarkW
Reply to  fred250
January 4, 2021 3:30 pm

I like the way it just trot’s out Mann’s work, as if the article above hadn’t provided proof that Mann’s work has been disproven.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:34 am

I like the way it just trot’s out Mann’s work

Mann’s was among the first comprehensive reconstructions. Now we have dozens and, of course, all show the familiar hockey stick.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 12:40 am

If the Hokey Schtick is real, why did the IPCC delete it from their Assessment Report?

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 5, 2021 1:48 am

If the Hokey Schtick is real, why did the IPCC delete it from their Assessment Report?

It deleted it? Oops, I didn’t know that! Sorry, I retract everything… Just kidding! 🙂

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:01 am

EMPTY nyholist. => NO EVIDENCE

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:42 am

You didn’t answer the question, nyolci. Why did the IPCC stop using the Mann Hockey Stick chart?

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 7:22 am

You didn’t answer the question, nyolci. Why did the IPCC stop using the Mann Hockey Stick chart?

Because it didn’t stop using the “hockey stick” chart. These reconstructions are now commonplace in climate science. Mann’s original reconstructions have been refined so in a sense they don’t use that, yes, but more accurate versions.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:11 am

Really? I understand that the IPCC included it in the AR, then hastily withdrew it when they realized what a heap of garbage it was.

Do you really have faith in a reconstruction based on a tree ring from one tree in the Yamal Peninsula?!

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:57 am

Translation, I can’t refute your point so I’ll ridicule it instead.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:06 pm

Translation, I can’t refute your point so I’ll ridicule it instead.

Correction: I refute and ridicule.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:00 am

Troll putting out bait.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:57 am

A couple of people use the same faulty methods and the same carefully chosen data sets, get the same results.
Only a warmunist would be impressed by that.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:17 pm

A couple of people use the same faulty methods and the same carefully chosen data sets

No, there are independent reconstructions with independent proxies and methods. A growing list. A quite comprehensive survey, with short explanations:
http://environmentalforest.blogspot.com/2013/10/enough-hockey-sticks-for-team.html
You can see the various proxies used, the various methods, etc. FYI This is science not some compilation page.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 2:31 pm

So-called paleo-temperature reconstructions do not reconstruct temperature.

A detailed blog explanation is available at WUWT in Proxy Science and Proxy Pseudo-science.

So-called proxy temperature reconstructions are numerical and/or statistical constructs that have no distinct physical meaning. “Temperature” is assigned by mere fiat.

The whole field of proxy reconstructions descended into pseudo-science as soon as Briffa, Jones, and Schweingruber slapped degrees Celsius on their numerical construct of tree ring densities in 1988 (see their Figure 8). That Figure should never have passed peer review.

Physics naifs like Briffa, Jones, and Schweingruber may be excused from knowing that Statistics is no substitute for Physics, by way of ignorance. But Mann certainly knows it’s a crock, and does it anyway.

fred250
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 5, 2021 8:13 pm

But Mann certainly knows it’s a crock, and does it anyway.

That is the REALITY of the situation

Mickey Mann must KNOW that the hockey stick is BOGUS and ANTI-SCIENCE, a load of statistical malpractice.

But he HAS to double down and try to HIDE that FACT.

He had to avoid “DISCOVERY” with every bit of his AGW funding.

His funders COULD NOT allow for their connection to the scam to be known, because it would have brought the whole stinking AGW farce crashing down.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:33 pm

If you look at the top of fig. 4 in [ https://epic.awi.de/id/eprint/32886/1/PAGES2k_NGEO_inpress.pdf ] you will see 4 constructions for the last two millennia. It looks more like a sickle than a hokey stick. The ‘blade’ of the sickle simple appears to be returning rapidly to the temperature of about 1,000 AD. Do you review things before you cut and paste?

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:08 pm

“Correction: I refute and ridicule.”

NO, you have not refuted ANYTHING..

You don’t have the science to do that.

You are EMPTY.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 4:38 am

“nyholist regurgitates another load of EVIDENCE-FREE tripe”

We get a lot of that around here. In fact, that’s all we get from alarmists. Which makes sense since they don’t have any evidence to back up their claims. But they pretend they do.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 7:23 am

But they pretend they do.

I don’t pretend anything. I just quote scientists. You know, the actual ones.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:58 am

Once again the warmunist declares that only scientists who support his beliefs qualify as actual ones.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:39 pm

Almost good. Just the other way around. I base my beliefs on actual scientists.

mikebartnz
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:25 pm

Well little Michael Mann wouldn’t make a scientist arse hole as he switched from tree ring data to real data without making that switch obvious. He is also so stupid that he thinks courts can decide science which is backfiring on him. The guy is one horrible narcissist.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:13 am

Like Michael Mann!!

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:27 am

There are a LOT of scientists who consider the “hockey stick” paper as junk science.

Besides it is a NORTHERN Hemisphere in coverage only.

LOL

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 5, 2021 12:41 pm

Besides it is a NORTHERN Hemisphere in coverage only.

Mann’s yes, the others (and there are a lot of others 🙂 ) are various. The problem is the relative lack of proxy data from the Southern Hemisphere. That’s what scientists say.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:15 pm

Plenty of Southern hemisphere proxies for the oceans (and other oceans as well.

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Clyde Spencer
Reply to  fred250
January 7, 2021 7:37 pm

Fred,
No fair using data more recent than nihilist!

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:26 am

nihilist, you have a remarkably appropriate moniker.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:07 pm

“is insulting our collective intelligence”

The AGW cult is a collective with basically ZERO intelligence.

MarkW
Reply to  fred250
January 4, 2021 3:31 pm

What’s funny is the fact that nyolci is actually convinced that it is an intellectual.

Drake
Reply to  MarkW
January 4, 2021 5:57 pm

And it is. Only an intellectual can reason away to themselves obvious facts. I started looking at Global Warming when the Hockey Stick graph came out. I didn’t see the MWP or LIA in the graph and immediately KNEW that it was CRAP. Years following Steve McIntyre’s reconstruction and deconstruction of the data manipulation of paper after paper, even considering that the TEAM didn’t ever provide all the data they discarded because it didn’t fit their narrative. Mr. McIntyre and Climate Audit are a recourse beyond parallel, he deserves a Nobel for mathematics, not because he did something “new”, but because he did something unique. he analyses a bunch of frauds and proved their deceit.

I am a conservative, not a liberal “intellectual”. They can’t see the trees for their forest of unreason. I hate when the MEDIA, as they are already starting to do now with Obiden, will spend all their time discussing “nuance” and how conservatives are too dense to understand how progressive ideas brought to us by leftist intellectuals (progressivism, liberalism, socialism, communism, Marxism, feudalism, totalitarianism, etc.) will work, even though when tried for centuries their isms never have.

Reply to  Drake
January 5, 2021 12:36 am

I didn’t see the MWP or LIA in the graph and immediately KNEW that it was CRAP.

Huh, this is what I call the scientific approach 🙂

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:02 am

You know NOTHING about anything to do with SCIENCE

Science is about actual EVIDENCE

You are an empty sock.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:29 am

Why is it that ALL you can ever come up with is EMPTY BLATHER ?

It seems that your scientific education and rational orlogical comprehension is basically ZERO

Failed humanities student ??

Tom Abbott
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 4:47 am

“Why is it that ALL you can ever come up with is EMPTY BLATHER ?”

It’s all the alarmists have, fred.

MarkW
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 8:00 am

What do you mean failed?
Being able to spout nothing but empty blather is the entire purpose of most humanities degrees.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:26 am

Yes, it is what is called the scientific approach, I too heard that by 2020, great Britain would be running entirely off renewable energy, and thought that is probably crap, since amongst other things I am an electrical engineer, and ten years later monitoring every MWh generated since, I can confidently assure you that my conclusions were pretty much correct.

In a book I read once, is a story about a man who lived in a village of illiterates, and had a book, of wisdom, which he read passages out of in the village square, to the adulation of the whole village. One day a young man who had left the village, and been away and learnt to read, came back and noticed that the man was holding the book upside down!
“He cant read! He is holding the book upside down!” the man taunted.
Undismayed the man looked at his villagers directly. “What difference does it make to a man who can read, which way up the book is?”

Whenever I hear of Michael Mann, I think of that story.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 5, 2021 7:32 am

I too heard that by 2020, great Britain would be running entirely off renewable energy

What the hell does this have to do with climate reconstructions?

I can confidently assure you that my conclusions were pretty much correct.

Please you should be a bit more correct as an engineer. I’m pretty sure you wanted to say “my predictions”.

I am an electrical engineer

Ah, a fellow engineer. Shame on you then, you should know better and avoid these flat earthers.

Whenever I hear of Michael Mann, I think of that story.

Huh, you should a long way to go for some basic scientific literacy.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:02 am

nyolci talking about basic scientific literacy.
Now that thar is funny.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:43 pm

nyolci talking about basic scientific literacy. Now that thar is funny.

No, it’s not. It’s very serious. You should take it seriously too. Denying science will bite you, and unfortunately your denial will bite me too. Your idiocy is dangerous…

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:17 pm

You should take it seriously too

Yet you obviously don’t…

otherwise you wouldn’t be so scientifically ILLITERATE. !

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:43 pm

There is nothing as dangerous as a fool who is convinced he is absolutely correct, when he isn’t. Skepticism is always being open to being corrected.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:04 am

The scientific approach is you telling us how Mann’s hockey stick reconstruction included “global” data to show no MWP.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 7:44 am

included “global” data to show no MWP.

Are you really this delusional?

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:25 am

You know what they say, if everyone around you is crazy, then you had better look close in the mirror?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 12:45 pm

if everyone around you is crazy

Then I’m visiting the locked ward. Proudly sponsored by right wing think tanks.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2021 7:46 pm

Jim
The other appropriate saying is that only sane people question their sanity; the insane are absolutely convinced that they are sane and it is everyone else that has a problem.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:18 pm

Are you really this delusional?

Are you REALLY is such deep and MANIC DENIAL ?

Or is it all just play acting !

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:59 am

If I saw a study that proved that the Sahara had over 100 inches of rainfall per year, I would know that it is junk.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:01 pm

If I saw a study that proved that the Sahara had over 100 inches of rainfall per year, I would know that it is junk.

Splendid! You know if I smell BS I won’t let you go 🙂
So could you explain to me why you would know that? Perhaps with the help of some science? Or could you tell me what the amount of rainfall in inches is you would deem believable? Don’t bother, I know you can’t answer these, you’ve got no clue. These are scientific matters, and the people trained for this are called (climate) scientists. They are the experts society has paid a lot to train them. Perhaps you should let them do their work. The topic is not just of academic interest. At least stop harassing them, will you?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:49 pm

Surely your realize that few of these self-proclaimed climate ‘scientists’ actually have degrees in climatology. They are interlopers, like most of us.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:30 am

I had the very same reaction, because I happen to know a bit about MWP and LIA, whose existence has been known for years prior the arrival of the HS junk paper.

There are a number of science papers over it and historians accounts of them too.

It is your IGNORANCE is why you are easily fooled by a pseudoscientist.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 5, 2021 1:04 pm

I happen to know a bit about MWP and LIA

‘cos you are, I guess, the grandfather of the Highlander, right? Okay, it was the rude way to call your assertion bullshit.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:20 pm

nyholists has PROVEN he/she/it knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the MWP

Links to anti-science propaganda sites.

Is EMPTY of any actual REAL evidence

DENIES real evidence placed in front of it.

So incredibly and stupidly green-sludge minded.

Ron
Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 13, 2021 12:12 am

There are tree samples from under the glaciers in the Alps being proof the tree zone was way up compared to today in the Roman and Medieval times by C14 analysis. If people would have a look on other continents that would without a doubt proof that the Roman and Medieval Warm Periods were global cause temperature is the determining factor for that. The tree zone data from the LIA is very clear about temperature being the key factor.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:37 am

What’s funny is the fact that nyolci is actually convinced that it is an intellectual.

No, I pretty sure the Manhattan Whoever is not 🙂

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:03 am

Nyholist is a NON-intellectual.

No science, just an EMPTY sock.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:03 am

And now the warmunist tries desperately to change the subject.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:31 am

Calling someone an “Intellectual” is actually a deadly insult.

Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 2:41 pm

They have plenty of intelligence, fred. There’s no reason to think that high intelligence is a guarantee against malignant intent.

Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:20 pm

Evidence-free drivel from A-holist.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:28 pm

One constant with warmunists, they refuse to let go of a good lie, no matter how many holes has been shot into it.

Here we have an article, which cites hundreds of studies showing that the MWP was real, and global, and the troll just trots out the lie that Mann has shown the MWP doesn’t exist.
The fact that Mann’s data and methods have been shredded by people who actually know what they are talking about, doesn’t dent the trolls confidence that his religious beliefs will someday triumph over mere science.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 12:41 am

Here we have an article, which cites hundreds of studies showing that the MWP was real

Well, the problem is that these studies don’t show that. They show this and that, that’s why we know the MWP was exceptional (eg. precipitation). But in terms of temperature, it was, on average, below current levels. (In certain territories, it was above.)

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:04 am

Problem is that the actuical DO SHOW IT

Take off your blindfold, little boy !

Remove the green sludge from you little cranium.

Loydo
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 4:49 am

nyolci is correct, the MWP was weak, patchy and shows up at different times in different places. That is why it barely shows on globally averaged plots. No conspiracy required. If you think any of these compendiums of MWP papers show otherwise then you have not bothered to read any of them.
In stark contrast the modern warming period is abrupt and apart from one or two outliers global.comment imagecomment image

Reply to  Loydo
January 5, 2021 5:17 am

HAHAHA!

Images from unsceptical science

Try a real paper and many more

Loydo
Reply to  Redge
January 5, 2021 2:13 pm

You think either Easterbrook or Idso have any credibility amongst the science community?

Reply to  Loydo
January 5, 2021 8:25 pm

And yet the “science community” are unable to refute their work

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 5, 2021 11:23 pm

You think either Easterbrook or Idso have any credibility amongst the science community?

FAR MORE credibility than mickey mann, al gore, di caprio. et all

An certainly far more than a moronic nil-educated twit like you…

…. who is provably WRONG on every statement you make.

Reply to  Loydo
January 5, 2021 6:07 am

Loydo,

Your second graph shows Brazil as suffering from very high warming. Yet the cooling degree-data from Manicore, BR (61.30W,5.82S) shows a definite cooling trend over the past five years. The trend is unmistakable and is shown in the following graph. The graph has a 2nd degree polynomial trend line showing that the peak warming in Brazil was in 2015 and it has been cooling ever since.

The graph you are using is misleading as all git out and does not show the real trends in Brazil.

I suspect the same thing will show up in most other “high warming” locations.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 6:09 am

I don’t know why the graph didn’t post. Here is another try.

brazil.png
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 6:52 am

Your graph also shows NW Africa as seeing extreme heating.

Attached is a graph of the cooling degree-days from Tambacounda, SN. The trend line shows the cooling degree-days have gone from 630 to 645 over the past 10 years. That is hardly an “extreme” change.

This is a prime example of where the use of “anomalies” simply doesn’t give a good picture of what is happening physically. It amplifies the scale and makes what is barely any change into a catastrophe.

tambacounda.png
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 7:47 am

cooling degree-days have gone from 630 to 645 over the past 10 years

Ditto. Loydo’s graph shows the period of 1999-2008.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 7:46 am

peak warming in Brazil was in 2015 and it has been cooling ever since.

Check the graph please, it says 1999-2008. I don’t want to dwelve into your other claims.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:43 am

SkS are WRONG.. period..

They make a point of using LIES and DECEIT based on pure FABRICATION and IGNORANCE

comment image

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Reply to  nyolci
January 8, 2021 9:03 am

Jeeesh, I wish I had seen this earlier.

I gave you the graph of the cooling degree-days in Brazil over the past five years. It is not labeled by year! It is labeled by month starting five years ago!

It shows the peak warming in Brazil happened in 2015. Sorry you can’t read the graph!

Reply to  Loydo
January 5, 2021 8:33 am

No link, too unsure about the charts?

fred250
Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 5, 2021 12:09 pm

Oceans 2k clearly shows the MWP was MUCH WARMER..

comment image

But DATA and FACTS means nothing to nyhoolist..

He/she/it is a CLIMATE CHANGE DENIER extraordinaire. !

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 5, 2021 10:40 am

No SkS is WRONG

They are a bunch of LYING ANTI-SCIENCE hacks

Just the sort of ignorant people Loy would cite.

ALL parts of the oceans were MUCH warmer during that period..

comment image

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MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:04 am

Actually, they do show that.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:15 pm

Actually, they don’t. We can play this game for long, so here’s a few examples:
http://co2science.org/data/mwp/studies/l3_lakekamalete.php
Lake Kamalété, Central Gabon “the dry season was “more prolonged and more severe” than it is today”, in line with what science claims.
http://co2science.org/data/mwp/studies/l3_namib.php
Sossusvlei, Namib Desert, Namibia again, precipitation variations.
http://co2science.org/data/mwp/studies/l2_yangtzedelta.php
Yangtze River Delta, China Now this is an actual temperature reconstruction at last. Go check it. Except for 3 short peaks (two during the LIA) MWP is colder than what we have today, and the record is cut at the year 2000. This is completely in line with what science claims.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:38 pm
Ron
Reply to  nyolci
January 13, 2021 12:25 am

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1akI_yGSUlO_qEvrmrIYv9kHknq4&ll=-10.687424348880807%2C38.03818700000005&z=2

More than 1,200 papers about climate reconstructions world-wide. The big majority shows warmer climate whenever temperature and not precipitation was assessed.

No cherry-picking for a change.

Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:35 pm

You better should read scientific papers, didn’t know M.Mann was “leading” in what ever despite of spreading BS

Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 5, 2021 12:41 am

You better should read scientific papers

That’s what I do.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:05 am

No, you are INCAPABLE of understanding real scientific papers.

You have proven that time and time again.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:54 am

If you do actually read and comprehend actual “scientific” papers,

Why are you such a definitive and absolute CLIMATE CHANGE DENIER ?

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:27 am

You can read? then you should know that Mickey Man is holding the book upside down!

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 5, 2021 7:16 am

then you should know that Mickey Man is holding the book upside down!

??? What the hell is this? You deniers get really idiotic sometimes.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:06 am

An actual statistician proved that Mann’s methods were faulty. But the faithful don’t care, because Mann’s results support what they want to believe.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:22 pm

An actual statistician proved that Mann’s methods were faulty.

And quite a few actual statisticians proved this guy (actually these two) wrong. And there’s moral in this story. These guys (McIntyre and McIntrick) very likely knew they produced gibberish ‘cos their errors were so obvious. They are knowingly disseminating BS. Why? The target audience is a bunch of ignoramuses, that’s okay, but I seriously doubt McThis and McThat were playing tricks for the future WUWT clown show. Perhaps they were doing that ‘cos their paymasters (yeah, right at the point now!) wanted to claim “doubts”. How about that? And you, my dear MarkW, are just filler material for this show.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:47 am

No DENIERS here except you

Tell us one thing we “DENY” that you can present proper scientific proof for.

You DENIAL OF CLIMATE CHANGE is what the whole AGW scam is built on

You do know that mickey mann used upside down proxies, don’t you !

Or are the scams and statistical malpractice used by the fraudster something else you are IGNORANT of. !

fred250
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 8:22 pm

Noted that when asked to actually produce EVIDENCE…

little nyholist.. rabid AGW apologist…

HAS NOTHING TO OFFER.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:05 am

And yet you still misrepresent what the studies show.

Reply to  MarkW
January 6, 2021 2:54 pm

see above.

Reply to  nyolci
January 6, 2021 8:58 am

You may perfectly well read them. But you sure don’t understand them.

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 6, 2021 2:55 pm

see above, you genius.

Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:39 pm

You may have a look here:
Link

(OT: where are the formatting tags ??)

Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 4, 2021 3:41 pm

Seems to run the manual way as earlier…

Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 4, 2021 3:45 pm

Are back, fine 😀

Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 5, 2021 12:47 am

You may have a look here: Link

I have already, and there was another comprehensive site as well. I went further, I read some papers. And no, they don’t show. Eg. one paper was about temperature reconstruction in a certain point in China. The reconstruction showed temperatures generally higher than the LIA ones, and generally lower than current ones, and the temperature was quite stable during the period in question. There were three reconstructed (short lived) peaks that showed higher temperatures that the reconstructed temp at 2000. Two were during the LIA. Another paper concluded that at a certain location Africa was dryer. Etc. These were scientific papers completely in line what we know about this period.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:06 am

Poor nyholist

science comprehension is BEYOND you..

And always will be.

Roy W. Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 3:58 pm

Nyolci, you are an anonymous hand-waver who thinks bad Mannian revisionist science, which even many alarmists find suspicious, overturns dozens of lines of paleo proxy and historical evidence. 1,000 to 2,000 year old forests which until recently were covered by glaciers provide mute but powerful testament that your narrative belongs in the fiction section of the local library.

Reply to  Roy W. Spencer
January 4, 2021 4:34 pm

Nyolci, you are an anonymous hand-waver who thinks bad Mannian revisionist science…….overturns dozens of lines of paleo proxy and historical evidence.”

Yes he does and on the face of it, I can only assume some kind of psychological issue.

David A
Reply to  Mike
January 5, 2021 12:37 am

Nyolci, ” defending the indefensible”

Reply to  Mike
January 5, 2021 7:50 am

I can only assume some kind of psychological issue.

I can only assume you’re not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist 🙂 I’m pretty sure you don’t have a stem degree either.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:48 am

You ooze base level ignorance from every post..

Poor failed humanities student.

Reply to  Roy W. Spencer
January 5, 2021 12:54 am

Nyolci, you are an anonymous hand-waver who thinks bad Mannian revisionist science
??? What the hell does being anonymous have to do with my arguments? Furthermore it’s quite shaky speaking about anonymity with a name that looks essentially a pseudonym 🙂 FYI Mann is not considered “revisionist”, he is the mainstream in climate science.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:56 am

Nyolci–“he is the mainstream in climate science.”
Thank you for nicely summing up mainstream climate “science” in one short sentence:

  • Faked the data by truncation to “hide the decline” which would have exposed a fatal flaw at the foundation of his work.
  • Did not plausibly refute contra data.
  • Refused to share his data and methods, presumable to avoid discovery of his errors.
  • Misapplication of statistics.
  • Didn’t notice that red noise gives alarming hockey sticks.
  • Making errors we would NOT EXPECT from a college junior or senior, let alone a PHD candidate.
  • As we all know, this isn’t about truth at all, its about plausibly deniable accusations.  (1256735067.txt)
  •  it would be nice to try to “contain” the putative “MWP”, even if we don’t yet have a hemispheric mean reconstruction available that far back  (1054736277.txt)

Thanks
JK

Tom Abbott
Reply to  JimK
January 5, 2021 4:58 am

Erasing previous warm periods is a fraud perpetrated on the people of the world. The Climategate emails show it was a deliberate fraud meant to promote a political agenda, and rake in big bucks for the promoters.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 6:30 am

The Climategate emails show it was a deliberate fraud

If Climategate showed anything it was the desperation of deniers to come up with something. Furthermore, it destroyed any respect a lot of people felt towards Judith Curry. What she did that time could be characterized as deliberately dishonest.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:09 am

Fascinating, exposing the lies of the so called climate scientists shows the desperation of deniers.

Really, that’s the story you want to go with?

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:37 am

But you made you made NO case to back up your silly claims,

Just a bunch of bla, bla, bla…….

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:51 am

Poor nyholist..

Totally blinkered and blind to reality.. That’s the AGW way

PATHETIC

You have not a single honest bone in your feeble little non-entity.

Your whole meme is built around LIES and MISINFORMATION.

Your tiny mind is just too full of brain-hosed green sludge for you to know it.

Reply to  JimK
January 5, 2021 6:33 am

Faked the data by truncation to “hide the decline”

If I had a penny for every time it has been explained to outsiders like you I would be a millionaire. Tiresome. Just as the rest.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 6:39 am

Careful, your ignorance is showing, which is more than can be said for your evidence

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:21 am

nyolci —>. 1st, you are a troll. Go away.

2nd, you are using an argumentative fallacy of appeal to authority. If you want to use authority, then you must provide the studies that prove No Global Affect of the MWP.

You can’t even use Mann’s work because he hasn’t and won’t release the data and math he used to achieve his result. At this point, it is truly his OPINION, not a proven scientific fact.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 7:55 am

nyolci —>. 1st, you are a troll. Go away.

I’m not a troll. I’m actually helping you. You’re lost in illiteracy.

If you want to use authority, then you must provide the studies that prove No Global Affect of the MWP.

Why do you think I can’t? Science is such that you have the evidence. Science is designed such. https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo1797

You can’t even use Mann’s work because

Sorry it’s evidently not idiots like you who tells me what I can or can’t use. Accidentally I provided a comprehensive study but Mann is not an author.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:54 am

From your link with this dishonest Abstract quote:

There were no globally synchronous multi-decadal warm or cold intervals that define a worldwide Medieval Warm Period or Little Ice Age, but all reconstructions show generally cold conditions between AD 1580 and 1880, punctuated in some regions by warm decades during the eighteenth century.

bolding mine

Notice the word Synchronous?

No one has ever said MWP and LIA everywhere at once, not only that it NEVER is that way in climate change, The climates zones of the world changes independently, it always has.

That is a DISHONEST statement using that word Synchronous, materially damages the paper.

DR. Mann’s own HS paper doesn’t even cover half the world, yet you fall for it hard!

LOL

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 5, 2021 1:25 pm

I think I’ve found a real gem of confusion:

No one has ever said MWP and LIA everywhere at once, not only that it NEVER is that way in climate change, The climates zones of the world changes independently, it always has.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:27 pm

Doesn’t take much to confuse you does it, little mite. !

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:40 am

Not even the judge in his libel suit against Dr. Ball would take Mann’s word alone that his hockey stick was done correctly and ordered him to provide the information.

You can continue to argue that his study was valid, but there IS NO VALIDATED INDEPENDENT REPLICATION of his study because of MANN’S REFUSAL to release the data and methods so replication can be done.

That makes his conclusions OPINIONS ONLY and would not be accepted in any debate society nor would this study be allowed as evidence to advance your claims.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:26 pm

You’re lost in illiteracy.

And you are lost in base-level idiocy.

Pages 2K consortium, DESPITE their aim of trying to hide the MWP with cherry-picked anti-science STILL shows the MWP warmer than now, as well the anomalous LIA from we have been fortunate enough to recover from.

comment image

Oceans 2K show it even more distinctly.

comment image

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:10 am

Ah yes, since outright deception was necessary to prove his case, then outright deception was justified.
And thus dies “climate science”.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:37 am

But you can NOT address it, just more bla bla bla……

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 8:05 pm

So, you are saying that you are an insider?

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:07 am

he is the mainstream in climate science

No, Mickey Mann is a scam artist..

and you gullibly fell for his anti-science CON job.

He was unwilling to produce his actual data and methods EVEN UNDER THREAT OF LAW.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 5:03 am

“He was unwilling to produce his actual data and methods EVEN UNDER THREAT OF LAW.”

That ought to tell you all you need to know.

I think nyolci needs to read Mark Steyn’s book about Michael Mann. Steyn has statements in his book from prominent climate scientists who don’t have a very good opinion of Michael Mann’s work.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 7:13 am

“He was unwilling to produce his actual data and methods EVEN UNDER THREAT OF LAW.”

Bullshit, courts don’t consider scientific evidence.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:13 am

Once again, nyolci is either incredibly ignorant, or he’s being a climate science and just lying about what he knows.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:43 pm

Mickey Mann COULD NOT ALLOW “DISCOVERY”..

To do so would have shown that his farcical Hocket stick was a pre-designed , paid for piece of scientific fraud.

Not even mickey mann could ave done it by gross incompetence.!

But it does take GROSS incompetence, massive GULLIBILITY, and MANIC climate change DENIAL not to realise that the whole ugly piece of non-science was basically a LIE from start to finish.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 7:35 am

I couldn’t edit my last comment and I feel you would misunderstand it. So courts don’t decide in scientific matters, they leave that to scientists.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:57 am

Mann was asked to produce evidence

HE WAS INCAPABLE OF DOING SO, because he KNEW he could not do it without totally destroying what was left of his slimy reputation and EXPOSING those funding his LIES and scientific malfeaces.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:36 pm

The court was deciding a legal matter, not a scientific matter. Mann was required to produce certain data and failed to do so, and lost the legal case as a result.

If Mann had confidence in his data, he would have produced the data, and would not have lost the case on that account.

But Mann chose to lose the case rather than produce his data.

That’s what I meant by saying “that ought to tell you something”.

MarkW
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 8:12 am

@he is the mainstream in climate science@

No, Mickey Mann is a scam artist..

But scam artist is the definition of a mainstream climate scientist.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:08 am

He is mainstream in climate science.

That’s your problem right there.
Climate science stopped being about science back in the 70’s.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:26 pm

Climate science stopped being about science back in the 70’s.

They how do you know about the Minoan warm period? 🙂

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:44 pm

ROFLMAO..

nyholist again shows his abject ignorance

So funny

MarkW2
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 4:00 pm

“It [MWP] turned out it wasn’t global.”

This argument can be destroyed in seconds for the very simple reason that current “global warming” isn’t global either, but regional.

Ipso facto what you’ve actually done, nyolci, is provide your own reason as to why YOU shouldn’t believe that AGW is real.

Jeez, what planet are you on?!

Reply to  MarkW2
January 5, 2021 12:56 am

This argument can be destroyed in seconds for the very simple reason that current “global warming” isn’t global either, but regional.

Well, scientists say otherwise.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:37 am

A-holist fails to rebut MarkW2’s point.

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 5, 2021 1:58 am

A-holist fails to rebut MarkW2’s point.

??? MarkW2’s point was “not A”. Not very elaborate. I said “A”. The difference is that I have the support of science.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:11 am

Nyholist FAILS.. ALWAYS

It what he/she/it does

Its a builtin mind defense mechanism.

You DO NOT have the support of science.

If you did you would be able to produce some, instead on your mindless yappings.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 1:40 pm

“It what he/she/it does”

nyolci needs to tell us what his/her sex is, or is that gender?, I get all those things confused any more. But I do know the difference between a man and a woman. 🙂

Anyway, nyolci needs to give us a clue so we know how to address xxxyyy.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 5:12 am

“The difference is that I have the support of science.”

That’s funny. You realize you are losing the argument, don’t you? When you start falling back on “the science”, you demonstrate you don’t have a case to make.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 6:07 am

When you start falling back on “the science”

I consider falling back on science quite a strong point. Perhaps you should too. After all the Enlightenment was like a bit more than 200 years ago. It’s time to catch up.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:00 am

Well, scientists say otherwise.”

What scientists? Be specific. Document any links you use as reference.

“scientists say” is nothing more than the argumentative fallacy of Appeal to Authority – and you don’t even specify what authority you are appealing to.

“falling back on science’ is just one more use of the argumentative fallacy of Appeal to Authority.

These kinds of statements are nothing more than hand-waving useful in applying the argumentative fallacy of Argument by Dismissal. They are emotional appeals and are not fact based.



Mr.
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 7:57 am

Whenever I see or hear that expression “scientists say”, I think about those cheesy tv ads from the 1960s when marketers could claim all kinds of tosh about their products.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 8:00 am

What scientists? Be specific.

Climate scientists.

Document any links you use as reference.

Almost useless for illiterates but here’s one: https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo1797

“scientists say” is nothing more than the argumentative fallacy of Appeal to Authority

Hm, appealing to science is kinda the last resort. Science is the forum where these things are carefully examined and researched. So scientists are the people we should appeal to when in doubt or confusion (like you).

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:24 am

you didn’t read your own link – it’s out of date by 2 years

go back, read the latest version.

Look at Figure 2

Following these corrections, the period from 1941–1970 emerges as the second warmest 30-year period in the Arctic record, and 1971–2000 the third warmest, rather than the first and second warmest as reported in the original version. The ranked order of the best estimate of temperature indicates that the warmest 30-year period is centred on AD 395.

and look at this:

The authors thank D. Divine, S. McIntyre and K. Seftigen, who helped improve the Arctic temperature reconstruction by finding errors in the data set.

Not the first time McIntyre has corrected the climate scientologists

Reply to  Redge
January 6, 2021 3:02 pm

the period from 1941–1970 emerges as the second warmest 30-year period in the Arctic record

They are speaking about the Arctic record, you genius, not the global record. That’s why they claim the MWP was a North Atlantic phenomenon.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:03 am

Those particular scientists had a pre-determined outcome in mind.

They DELIBERATELY IGNORED much of the actual science out there.

Even their BIASED NON-SCIENCE could not erase the warmer period than now before the LIA

comment image

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 8:13 pm

You obviously don’t understand the meaning of the word “specific.”

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:16 am

The difference is that you have declared that any science that disagrees with what you want to believe, isn’t science.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  MarkW
January 6, 2021 5:59 am

“you have declared that any science that disagrees with what you want to believe, isn’t science.”

That’s the heart of it in a nutshell.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:01 am

“I consider falling back on science quite a strong point.”

Except that YOU DON’T

You blatantly IGNORE actual science as if it was the CV-19

You even ignore the data they actually produce, clearly showing a warmer period before the LIA.

And that is AFTER they did everything to ignore most of the real data out there.

comment image

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:44 pm

Yeah but, just saying “the science” isn’t really demonstrating any science, it’s just saying a couple of words.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 6, 2021 3:06 pm

Yeah but, just saying “the science” isn’t really demonstrating any science, it’s just saying a couple of words.

Well, science is a lot of knowledge, you should do the reading yourself. But the thing is that when I do provide evidence, you either can’t understand it or choose to remain silent when you do. Very likely because you realize evidence doesn’t support your position.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:30 pm

It’s time to catch up.

Yet your mind is still trapped in the Dark Age….

…. or is it the Neanderthal period..

And you show that you have no intention of letting it escape.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:26 am

No you don’t. Find a climate scientist or paper that will affirm that the Global Average Temperature (GAT) increase occurs everywhere on the planet in a similar amount.

The very fact that you are using this as the basis of your refutation of MarkW shows how little you really know about climate.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 8:12 am

Find a climate scientist or paper that will affirm that the Global Average Temperature (GAT) increase occurs everywhere on the planet in a similar amount.

  1. Nick Stokes has a good interactive site where he demonstrates these data collected from scientific papers.
  2. No one claimed similar amount. Actually no one claimed exclusive warming. Polar regions warm much faster as opposed to equatorial ones. There are regions that don’t show substantial warming and some regions show cooling. But most of the Earth is warming, and now scientists have evidence this is unprecedented both in extent and speed.
AGW is Not Science
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:35 am

“scientists have evidence this is unprecedented both in extent and speed”

LMFAO. Only when the ignore the evidence they don’t like! Even the paleoclimate record, which lacks the resolution of today’s instrument record, shows warming that occurred faster and in a greater amount than anything happening now.

Lrp
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:59 am

Data is not demonstrated, data is presented. What Nick shows is not data, but climate models.

Reply to  Lrp
January 5, 2021 1:32 pm

Data is not demonstrated, data is presented.

Nick Stokes has a good demonstration. But you can read “presentation” if you wish 🙂

What Nick shows is not data, but climate models.

No, and with this statement you have demonstrated (or presented? I’m confused 🙂 ) your complete ignorance in this matter. Reconstruction is not modelling, you doofus! At least get your bullshit a bit more coherent!

Solomon Green
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 3:18 am

Actually reconstruction is modelling – albeit preferably using more accurate data.

Try researching any major archeological site and discover how many conflicting theories there have been as to its contruction, purpose etc

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:07 am

Nick stokes has a BAD, highly BIASED and selective site

Its what he does, twist data to suit his needs.

You on the other hand just IGNORE REAL DATA.

ts the ONLY CHOICE you have to keep you mind intact from cognitive dissonance and malfunction.

MWP was GLOBAL.. that is what the massive loads of evidence shows.

GET OVER IT and stop being a childish anti-science CLIMATE CHANGE DENIER.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:51 am

Show us a study that analyzed the Global Average Temperature (GAT) and broke it down into smaller regional pieces to see If the sum of the parts actually add up to the whole.

Remember, if the central USA is not warming, then you need to find an equivalent area that is heating 3 degrees or more to have an average of 1.5 deg. For areas with 1 degree of cooling you would need an area with 4 deg of warming. I assure you that you will be hard pressed to find areas with this kind of warming over the last century.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 6, 2021 3:10 pm

Show us a study that analyzed the Global Average Temperature (GAT)

Nick Stokes has a good compilation page with extensive references, go read.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:18 pm

Provide a link to a single paper that will affirm that the Global Average Temperature (GAT) increase occurs everywhere on the planet in a similar amount.

I dare you

Reply to  Redge
January 6, 2021 3:09 pm

Provide a link to a single paper that will affirm that the Global Average Temperature (GAT) increase occurs everywhere on the planet in a similar amount.

No one claimed “similar amount”. Scientists always say Arctic warms much faster, for example. Nick Stokes has a good compilation page with extensive references, go read.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 8:57 am

He is a proven science illiterate.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:15 am

Once again the warmunist refuses to actually address the question and declares that all the scientists that agree with him, agree with him.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:35 pm

Once again the warmunist refuses to actually address the question

No. BTW Anytime I answer with facts, you immediately change topic.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:45 pm

You haven’t answered ANYTHING with FACTS

What you use are links to manic AGW propaganda sites.

Its all you have.. lies and misinformation.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:47 am

What science is that?

I have yet to see you even know what it is since your replies are continually dead on arrival.

This is a hallmark of a troll not trying to support your empty assertions.

“Well, scientists say otherwise.”

“The difference is that I have the support of science.”

“Bullshit, courts don’t consider scientific evidence.”

“If I had a penny for every time it has been explained to outsiders like you I would be a millionaire. Tiresome. Just as the rest.”

What a list of empty replies you make, and this was your recent ones.

Pathetic.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:09 am

“Well, scientists say otherwise.”

Sorry but DATA say its only regional

Pity you are too incompetent to understand actual data.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:31 am

And my late Aunt Matilda claimed there were bats in the belfry and something nasty in the woodshed.

Can’t you do better than proof by assertion and argument from authority? These are social science tools, not climate science, and you de platform yourself by using them.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 5, 2021 6:27 am

Can’t you do better than proof by assertion and argument from authority?

Lame excuse for disregarding science. When there’s a scientific assertion (and I’m talking about natural sciences, not social sciences) that has already gone through the proper channels, now that is not an assertion from authority. That’s something you should not dismiss if you don’t want to look like a flat earther.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:17 am

And nyolci continues to ignore any science that it disagrees with.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:08 am

“Lame excuse for disregarding science”

Yet that is what you do in EVERY post you make

Its quite hilarious to watch you twist and turn in DENIAL.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 5:09 am

“Well, scientists say otherwise.”

“Some” alarmist scientists. They don’t have any evidence for *their* claims, either.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 5, 2021 6:23 am

“Some” alarmist scientists. They don’t have any evidence for *their* claims, either.

You look quite well versed in scientific matters 🙂

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:18 am

And once again, the troll has to resort to snark because it can’t produce the evidence to support it’s lies.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:10 am

“You look quite well versed in scientific matters”

You you look like a failed humanities student

You don’t seem to have any sort of actual “science” in your background at all

All you can do is yap mindlessly about it…

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:52 pm

I’m pretty well versed in alarmist unsubstantiated assertions. I’ve seen thousands of them.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t recall any unsubstantiated assertions by alarmists that have ever materialized. They’ve been wrong every time.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:14 am

Once again, the warmunist declares that only those who agree with him can qualify as “scientists”.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:41 am

“Well, scientists say otherwise.”

Your continued refusal to make an actual counterpoint exposed your lack of evidence and knowledge of the topic.

You act like a cheerleader without any demonstrated understanding of how science research works.

John VC
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 4:02 pm

What flavor was that Kool-Aid ??

Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 4:06 pm

Now we have modern and quite precise reconstructions (coming from leading paleo-climatologists like Mann) and we know there was MWP, yes, here and there. It turned out it wasn’t global.”

Ok let me get this straight. You are so deluded that you believe the above?
That there is scary stupid.

Antarctica…

Bertler et al. report that they identified three distinct time periods in their record: the last 150 years of the Medieval Warm Period (AD 1140 to 1287), the Little Ice Age (AD 1288 to 1807), and the Modern Era (AD 1808 to 2000). And with respect to the Little Ice Age, they note that summer temperatures at the core site were 2°C colder than those of the Modern Era (ME), while they write that “the McMurdo Dry Valleys were 0.35°C warmer during the MWP than during ME, accompanied by warmer conditions in the Ross Sea.”

Namibia….

”The author radiocarbon dated stands of dead Acacia erioloba trees from locations within the central Namib Desert. Results indicated that trees growing near Sossusvlei (24.75°S, 15.28°E) started growing in the 11th-12th century “during the relatively humid conditions of the Medieval Warm Period and died out after the more arid conditions of the Little Ice Age set in during the 14th century.”

New Zealand…

Temperatures were inferred from δ18O data obtained from four stalagmites found in caves at Waitomo (38.3°S, 175.1°E) on New Zealand’s North Island for which 19 TIMS uranium series ages were measured. The Medieval Warm Period occurred between AD 1100 and 1400 and was warmer than the Current Warm Period.
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/images/l2_waitomo2.gif

New Calidonia…
Based on their multi-proxy approach to climate evaluation, the authors determined that between ca. 2640 and 2000 cal yr BP, conditions were “drier and cooler,” while subsequent observations linked wetter with warmer. More specifically, they report that “between ca. 1250-500 cal yr BP the higher % of Rhizophoraceae and their peak around ca. 1080-750 cal yr BP underscore a mangrove belt development along the coastline.” And they state that this episode must be related to a wetter period and “may be related to a more global phenomenon such as the MWP in the Northern Hemisphere.” Thus, we consider the period AD 920-1250 to represent the MWP in this part of the southwest tropical Pacific.

Southern South America…

Reference
Neukom, R., Luterbacher, J., Villalba, R., Kuttel, M., Frank, D., Jones, P.D., Grosjean, M., Wanner, H., Aravena, J.-C., Black, D.E., Christie, D.A., D’Arrigo, R., Lara, A., Morales, M., Soliz-Gamboa, C., Srur, A., Urritia, R. and von Gunten, L. 2011. Multiproxy summer and winter surface air temperature field reconstructions for southern South America covering the past centuries. Climate Dynamics 37: 35-51.
Description
Working with 22 climate proxies, Neukom et al. developed a mean austral summer (December-February) temperature history for the period AD 900-1995 for the terrestrial area of the planet located between 20°S and 55°S and between 30°W and 80°W, a region they refer to as Southern South America (SSA). This record indicates that “a warm period extended in SSA from 900 (or even earlier) to the mid-fourteenth century,” which they describe as being temporally located “towards the end of the Medieval Climate Anomaly as concluded from Northern Hemisphere temperature reconstructions.” And as can be seen from the figure below, the warmest decade of this Medieval Warm Period was calculated by them to be AD 1079-1088, which as best we can determine from their graph is about 0.17°C warmer than the peak warmth of the Current Warm Period. MWP: AD 900-1350.

http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/images/l1_southensa.gif

Now go back under your rock.

Reply to  Mike
January 5, 2021 1:04 am

Well, do you need a comprehensive survey?
https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo1797
Furthermore, no one claimed that the MWP wasn’t special. It may have been warmer for a few decades than current temperatures at certain (or even most) locations. The thing is that it wasn’t warmer at the same time. Please comprehend that at last. What you referenced above doesn’t contradict this. (But be careful, Caledonia is the correct spelling.) The Namibian part is especially funny ‘cos they speak about precipitation not temperature.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:12 am

Finally admits the MWP was a period of GLOBAL warmer temperature.

Mindlessly yaps to try and get around the FACTS

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:10 am

Can’t you get it through your head that the “global warming” isn’t global either? Even the warming that has occurred since the 90’s has happened at different times in different locations.

According to NASA maps the central US has some of the highest concentrations of CO2 on the planet. Yet the central US is one of the regions that is COOLING. Do you understand what cognitive dissonance is? It’s holding two opposed views as true at the same time Believing that CO2 causes warming and that high CO2 locations are cooling *is* cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is *not* a survival trait.

co2_concentration_2016.jpg
Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 8:16 am

Can’t you get it through your head that the “global warming” isn’t global either?

Can’t you get it through your head that what you say doesn’t refute science? That what you say is completely in line with that? That what you say is actually the result of science you try to dismiss?
Global means most of the Earth, not each and every point. The current map of anomalies says that too. You should listen to scientists.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:12 am

Well that was a load of EMPTY GARBAGE..

The one thing little nyholist seems capable of.

Science.. NOT in its knowledge bank.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:34 pm

Current “anomalies” are FAR LOWER than for NEARLY ALL of the last 10,000 years

The planet is actually only a small bump out of the COLDEST PERIOD in 10,000 years.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:28 am

You do understand “global warming” works the same way don’t you?

The warming isn’t throughout the earth, just parts of it which changes constantly. Some parts warm, some parts cool.

The most amazing thing about global warming is most of it occurs where nearest to built up areas and airports.

Obviously the scientists adjust things “a little” to take into account the urban heat island and they wouldn’t dream of using one weather station and extrapolating the data to cover vast areas that don’t have any data or long enough records, would they?

Reply to  Redge
January 5, 2021 8:25 am

The warming isn’t throughout the earth, just parts of it which changes constantly. Some parts warm, some parts cool.

What we have today is unprecedented in extent and speed however you try to grasp straws here.

The most amazing thing about global warming is most of it occurs where nearest to built up areas and airports.

Another dead horse in the race. Every gauge at airports and build up areas show constant increase in time. If you were right they should show net zero gain but they show the same behaviour than other gauges, ie. increase. And no, global warming occurs truly globally, not just around airports.

Obviously the scientists adjust things “a little” to take into account the urban heat island

Scientists consider a lot of things and use sophisticated methods to correct for a lot of factors. No wonder you don’t understand that.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:53 am

your whole response is just laughable

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:15 am

What we have today is unprecedented in extent and speed

TOTAL BS !!

just like the rest of your posts.

Not one bit of actual science in any of them

Mindless rhetoric, and a couple of link to disreputable anti-science propaganda sites.

But that’s because you actually HAVE NO SCIENCE, have you.

Let’s see you produce some ACTUAL SCIENCE for a change

or just squirm away like a little worm..

1… Do you have any empirical scientific evidence for warming by atmospheric CO2?

2… In what ways has the global climate changed in the last 50 years , that can be scientifically proven to be of human causation?

fred250
Reply to  fred250
January 5, 2021 8:35 pm

Again.. when asked to produce actual evidence…

…. RUNS AWAY and cowers in the corner like a naughty little 5 year old.

Chris Hanley
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 4:44 pm

‘…These are valid scientific papers but they simply don’t prove the claim the web site editors tried to prove …’.
As I read it ‘The Manhattan Nutcase’ wasn’t trying to prove anything but merely pointing out that MBH99 and many iterations have set out to convinced the public that the supposed twentieth century warming is unprecedented at least in the past 1000 years and implying therefore cannot be due to natural fluctuations:
“… While warmth early in the millennium approaches mean 20th century levels, the late 20th century still appears anomalous: the 1990 s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium …” (MBH99).
That cannot be inferred by the proxy study alone but only by grafting the alleged thermometer record (GISS) onto the end to form the ‘blade’ as shown above.
Incidentally the reason the early twentieth century proxies correspond with the supposed thermometer record on the graph is because the proxy samples for the entire study were selected that way, rather than randomly.

Reply to  Chris Hanley
January 5, 2021 1:12 am

As I read it ‘The Manhattan Nutcase’ wasn’t trying to prove anything

Oops, I didn’t notice that, sorry 🙂 But if this is the case how come at least a handfull of you speak about the article as a profound piece of evidence? Consistency! A very important habit in science! Work on it!

That cannot be inferred by the proxy study alone

Jesus H. Christ… You should’ve obtained some information about this in advance. It was clearly explained in the paper. They used the period 1900-1980 for calibration, and the half century before for verification.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:13 am

More EMPTY yapping’

ZERO Science or Evidence

Because that’s what he/she/it has

Chris Hanley
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:47 pm

If by ‘calibration’ you mean the process of giving much greater weighting to samples that correlated with the supposed 1900-1980 thermometer record, precisely describing one important fault in the reconstruction as described by McIntyre i.e. almost guaranteeing a hockey stick shaped reconstruction.

fred250
Reply to  Chris Hanley
January 5, 2021 8:36 pm

The whole process of the fabrication of the hockey stick has been shown to create a hockey stick even when fed with random data.

It is a complete and absolute mathematical FARCE.

Reply to  Chris Hanley
January 6, 2021 3:18 pm

If by ‘calibration’ you mean the process of giving much greater weighting to samples that correlated with the supposed 1900-1980 thermometer record,

Supposed thermometer record? So the thermometer record was bad? Remember, McMoeFoe didn’t claim that! I take this fact as an implicit admission that the Thermometer record was okay.
For the rest, while the actual calibration was quite complicated, let’s assume they did what you claim. Do you advocate giving much greater weighting to samples that show bad correlation with the thermometer record? Wouldn’t that be a sign that this particular proxy is useless as a temperature proxy? The question was rhetorical, of course.

Chris Hanley
Reply to  nyolci
January 6, 2021 4:46 pm

If a proxy is considered reliable there should be no need to screen samples for correlation with (in this case) the thermometer record — such as it is.

Reply to  Chris Hanley
January 9, 2021 10:18 am

If a proxy is considered reliable there should be no need to screen samples for correlation with (in this case) the thermometer record — such as it is.

I think we have a gem here. A proxy is considered reliable precisely because it shows good correlation with the instrumental record, not the other way around, you genius. A proxy is called a proxy ‘cos it’s not the thing (ie. temperature measurement). You have to prove it’s can be used as a proxy for temperature, by comparing it to the instrumental record. That’s what Mann and quite a lot of others have done in the last cc 30 years or so.

Reply to  nyolci
January 9, 2021 10:24 am

I think we have a gem here.

You have to prove it’s can be used as a proxy for temperature, by comparing it to the instrumental record. That’s what Mann and quite a lot of others have done

  

Obviously a hidden gem 😉

commieBob
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 4:50 pm

… coming from leading paleo-climatologists like Mann ….

Mann’s credibility is shot. Because of his conduct in his lawsuit against Dr. Ball, Mann has, because of adverse inference, admitted that he belongs in the state pen. Calling a self-admitted fraudster a ‘leading paleo-climatologist’ is an insult to paleo-climatologists everywhere.

Reply to  commieBob
January 5, 2021 2:19 am

Mann’s credibility is shot.

In the scientific world Mann’s credibility and name recognition are actually increased. Talk about “unintended consequences”.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:14 am

All those who even PRETEND that Mann was anything but a low-level con-artist, are just a low on the credibility ladder

BELOW ZERO. !

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:32 am

Now you are just trolling.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 5, 2021 6:37 am

Now you are just trolling.
While sometimes I am, this time it’s serious. Michael Mann is respected and very well known not just in his field but much more broadly. This latter is more or less the result of deniers’ attacks. Of course his research is excellent but that is usually not enough for name recognition outside your very narrow field.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:17 am

Mickey mann’s paper are a DISGRACE to science and mathematics.

They are PROVABLE built on lies, distortions and statistical nonsense.

He is considered a JOKE even by many of the cli-sci community.

But off you go and lick his feet if that is all you have.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Leo Smith
January 7, 2021 8:22 pm

When did he stop?

commieBob
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 6:46 am

So, if his credibility is so high, how come no scientists raced to be by his side in his lawsuits against Ball and Steyn.

Reply to  commieBob
January 5, 2021 8:26 am

raced to be by his side in his lawsuits against Ball and Steyn.

That was a libel lawsuit. Scientific matters are not decided in court. This is it.

commieBob
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:18 am

Dr. Ball quipped that Mann belonged in state pen not Penn State. The implication, of course, is that Mann had indulged in sufficiently illegal conduct to be incarcerated. That would be defamation if it weren’t true.

Can you think of anything Mann did, other than the hockey stick, for which Ball would accuse him of criminal wrongdoing?

Anyway, by avoiding testimony and cross examination and discovery items, Mann has opened himself to adverse inference. We are allowed to infer that Mann’s purported science was actually fraudulent. That’s exactly what courts decide.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  commieBob
January 5, 2021 5:23 am

“adverse inference”

Love it!

We could apply that to the alarmists around here who make claims they can’t back up, and who go silent when asked for evidence of their claims.

Definition: “Adverse inference is a legal inference, adverse to the concerned party, drawn from silence or absence of requested evidence.”

Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 5:09 pm

Those Greenland Norse colonies where they grew crops and grasses for their livestock were a “dead horse” figment of archaeologists imaginations. (1100 AD – 1350 AD)
Those Mesa Verde Chaco culture indians growing maize on a Colorado plateau at 6,500 feet for 400 years was also a “dead horse” (850 AD- 1275 AD).
The Mayans (Mayan Warm period) in Central America as well. during the Roman Warm Period.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 5, 2021 1:28 am

Those Greenland Norse colonies where they grew crops and grasses

No, they didn’t grow crops. They couldn’t. They were reliant on cattle and sheep and fish. Furthermore MWP was foremost importantly a North Atlantic condition so it is expected that Southern Greenland was a bit warmer. Norse Greenland was never self reliant and the most important economic activity beside animal husbandry was walrus hunting (for ivory). When this market collapsed (‘cos of competition from actual ivory) that was the doom of this colony.

The Mayans (Mayan Warm period) in Central America as well. during the Roman Warm Period.

Well, no one speaks about Mayan Warm period, and the bulk of the Mayan classic period (the definite Mayan age) was after the “Roman Warm Period”. Work on it!

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 2:00 am

You are are liar. The Vikings grew barley in Greenland: https://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/viking-barley-in-greenland/

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 5, 2021 6:40 am

You are are liar.

You are a mothafuka.

The Vikings grew barley in Greenland:

“And yet there are men among those who are counted the wealthiest and most prominent who have tried to sow grain as an experiment; but the great majority in that country do not know what bread is, having never seen it.” Researchers believe the Vikings probably grew barley in small quantities.
From the article you referenced.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:41 am

Ooh, I seem to have touched a nerve! Good!

So you have confirmed that the Vikings did indeed grow barley in Greenland. “Researchers believe the Vikings probably grew barley in small quantities.”

And you’re still a liar.

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 5, 2021 9:20 am

Ooh, I seem to have touched a nerve! Good!

??? Insult for insult, that’s a fair deal I think. Don’t go mad. FYI It has nothing to do with the Vikings.

So you have confirmed that the Vikings did indeed grow barley in Greenland

Could you please consider the actual weight of this? I know it’s hard for you but please try. Even contemporary sources speak about experimenting with growing barley.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:20 am

Its extremely funny to watch you compounding you IGNORANCE is every NON-SCIENCE posting little rant you make, nyholist

Always weaseling out of any actual science that you KNOW you don’t have.

Such a display of blatant and wanton climate change denial . !!

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:49 pm

They grew enough barley to make their mead and to feed their stock and to eat.

More than experimental

Unfortunately the LIA intervened and they couldn’t grow barley any more.

No barley.. no beer… so they left. !

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:16 am

Poor nyhiolist,

WRONG on every statement.

Just make it up.. Avoid any actual science or evidence

No other choice, have you , child.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:41 am

“Work on it!”

You certainly haven’t.

Regurgitatiing mindless non-facts is all you have done

Not one shred of actual evidence in any post you have made.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:16 am

They were reliant on cattle “

What do cattle and sheep eat? If the grass was good enough to pasture cattle and sheep on then it was most assuredly a good enough climate to grow grains on. The confounding variable here is that the Vikings were probably not culturally attuned to growing grains because of where they came from. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t have grown grains, they just didn’t do so!

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 8:30 am

What do cattle and sheep eat?

Hay and grass.

If the grass was good enough to pasture cattle and sheep on then it was most assuredly a good enough climate to grow grains on.

No. Check Iceland. Nice place for hiking, I can recommend. Big hay fields, no grains. Because of the climate.

The confounding variable here is that the Vikings were probably not culturally attuned to growing grains because of where they came from.

Confounding variable here is that Vikings grew grain where they could. Greenland was not that place.

Lrp
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:14 am

Icelandic sagas written during 13th century mention grains growing.

Reply to  Lrp
January 5, 2021 1:42 pm

Icelandic sagas written during 13th century mention grains growing.

🙂 Most of the Icelandic sagas’ stories actually happen outside Iceland, mostly in Scandinavia but sometimes even in Constantinople. They are called Icelandic because that was the place they were put into writing by Snorri Sturluson (mostly).

Lrp
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 2:42 pm

Try reading Njal’s saga; although it won’t convince you, it describes events and life of Icelandic farmers including sowing and harvesting grains. It includes events that happened in Norway, Orkney, The Hebrides, Scotland, and Ireland as well, but the focus is on Iceland.

Reply to  Lrp
January 6, 2021 3:21 pm

Try reading Njal’s saga

Okay, that’s correct, and Iceland was and is a place capable of supporting grains. Not a great one but the possibility does exist.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:33 am
MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:21 am

No, they didn’t grow crops. They couldn’t. 

So all the evidence that they did grow crops doesn’t exist.
Once again, nyolci is forced to deny science in order to support his religious beliefs.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 9:22 am

So all the evidence that they did grow crops doesn’t exist.

Mark, I’ve expected more from you. Even contemporary sources said they were experimenting with growing barley. That’s all.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:34 am

You are LYING , yet again

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:52 pm

FAR MORE than experimenting

They grew enough to make the beer and mead, and to eat and to feed to stock

Why are you SO DESPERATE to DENY the FACT of the GLOBAL Medieval Warm Period ?

Was warmer yet again in the Roman warm period and even warmer still for most of the the prior part of the Holocene

The planet is very much at the COOLER end of the current inter-glacial

And basic DENIAL of that FACT makes you look like nothing but a ignorant , anti-science LIAR and CON-MANN

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 8:28 pm

You said, “No, they didn’t grow crops.” You didn’t qualify that as to large or small amounts. Since Graemethecat has shown your statement to be false, I’ll be charitable and just say that you are claiming things that are not true.

Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 6:01 pm

Nyocli, read the caption for this photo and tell us all your load of gibberish once more.

tree-stump-climate.jpg
KAT
Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 5, 2021 1:04 am

An inconvenient spruce…….

Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 5, 2021 1:29 am

read the caption for this photo

So what? Again, no one claimed that certain regions at certain times were warm (or even warmer than today).

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:17 am

Admission that the MWP was GLOBAL.. thanks, muppet

You cognitive malfunctioning continues with breathtaking hilarity. 🙂

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 6:35 am

Not just certain regions were warmer, but the entire world was warmer throughout most of the Holocene. You tacitly admit that with your reply.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and admit I’m not exactly sure where you stand on anthropogenic climate change, so I’ll give you an opportunity to explain your position. What do you find so alarming about the recent, very modest increase in global temperature? Why can that increase be caused only by anthropogenic CO2 and not whatever natural forcings that was responsible for much greater warmth during most of the Holocene, and why is this modest increase in temperature necessarily bad?

Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 5, 2021 8:36 am

but the entire world was warmer throughout most of the Holocene

Now this is not true as per the specific claims of scientists. They say it was not warmer. Neither the whole world nor during the whole Holocene (not even the peak periods).

What do you find so alarming about the recent, very modest increase in global temperature?

Hm, so we can conclude there is warming, right? This settled, I’ll give you an opportunity to explain what you find so soothing about the recent, unprecedented increase in global temperature.

Why can that increase be caused only by anthropogenic CO2

Well, scientists did a very thorough accounting and this was the result. We know essentially all relevant variables from at least the mid 80s (or even further back), like cloud cover, incoming radiation etc.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:38 am

Yes, real scientists DO KNOW that the MWP was global.

That is what the scientific evidence shows.

The rest of your post is one of blatant scientific DENIAL.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of warming by atmospheric CO2

It has NEVER been observed or measured anywhere on the planet.. The attribution studies are based on DELIBERATE IGNORANCE, and are totally meaningless.

Let’s see you produce some of the “science ” you are yapping mindlessly about…
 
1… Do you have any empirical scientific evidence for warming by atmospheric CO2?

2… In what ways has the global climate changed in the last 50 years , that can be scientifically proven to be of human causation?

Or will you continue to show that the whole stinking AGW edifice is built of foundations of sewerage.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 12:50 pm

Epic fail on all points.

“Now this is not true as per the specific claims of scientists. They say it was not warmer. Neither the whole world nor during the whole Holocene (not even the peak periods)”.

There is no way the world could have been at the same temperature much less cooler with a thawed permafrost as there must have been mid-Holocene evidenced by the spruce trunk 100 km north of the current tree line and thousands others that litter the North American and Asian tundra. Estimates by real scientists put global temperatures 3-5F warmer than current time. You might remember that thawing of the permafrost is one of the things alarmists like yourself fear with catastrophic climate change. Yet it all happened just a blink of an eyelash ago in geologic time. And obviously you have no idea why.

“Hm, so we can conclude there is warming, right? This settled, I’ll give you an opportunity to explain what you find so soothing about the recent, unprecedented increase in global temperature.”

There’s not a person on this thread that deny there’s been warming the past 150 years. What you so steadfastly deny is that there is absolutely nothing unprecedented about the amount of warming that has occurred. Obviously you buy into Mann’s hockey stick, which has been debunked so many times and in so many different ways that you should feel foolish even suggesting it.

“Well, scientists did a very thorough accounting and this was the result. We know essentially all relevant variables from at least the mid 80s (or even further back), like cloud cover, incoming radiation etc.”

An utterly ridiculous statement. Until you can identify all the different variables that caused past, much greater warming, something not even close to being accomplished, only a fool would attribute modern, very modest warming to only anthropogenic CO2, yes, modest, most certainly not unprecedented. Remember, it’s still not warm enough to melt the permafrost or the polar ice caps.

You’re the denier, and a blatant one at that.

Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 6, 2021 3:35 pm

There is no way the world could have been at the same temperature

Again, slowly ‘cos you won’t get it. Specific locations were warmer than today. Even a lot of locations were warmer in some period or other. Especially Arctic locations were found to be like that. But the thing is that these regions weren’t warmer at the same time, and warm regions were more than outbalanced by cold ones, so globally the Holocene wasn’t warmer. The recent global record has already surpassed any reconstruction for the Holocene during the mid 20th century.

There’s not a person on this thread that deny there’s been warming the past 150 years. What you so steadfastly deny is that there is absolutely nothing unprecedented about the amount of warming that has occurred.

If it’s not unprecedented, then there’s a precedent (we are talking about the Holocene). Could you please show us. Entertain us! 🙂

[I describe energy accounting]

An utterly ridiculous statement. Until you can identify all the different variables that caused past, much greater warming, something not even close to being accomplished

We are talking about an energy budget here. This comes in, that goes out, measured with great precision. The result of this is something that is self evident without any historical knowledge.

Ron Ginzler
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 8:27 pm

nyolci, let me rephrase your post in plain English, without emotion:

I believe the Medieval Warm Period was first brought up in scientific literature in the 1960s. [Supporting evidence: none.]

Mann and I believe it wasn’t global. [Supporting evidence: none.]

Third paragraph: No facts asserted, only opinion.

Fourth paragraph: asks the writer of the article to read the articles he cited, but doesn’t say nyolci read any of them.

Suggest you look up the definitions of “science” and “logic” before you comment here again. You will do much better.

fred250
Reply to  Ron Ginzler
January 4, 2021 8:43 pm

“You will do much better.”

Sorry, its posts have been getting progressively worse and WORSE…

….as it sinks deeper and deeper into its own cognitive malfunction and produces little more than blank-mined blathering.

Reply to  Ron Ginzler
January 5, 2021 1:35 am

I believe the Medieval Warm Period was first brought up in scientific literature in the 1960s. [Supporting evidence: none.]

We can’t talk about paleo-climatology before that. There were speculation based on historical sources. So evidence is evident.

Mann and I believe it wasn’t global. [Supporting evidence: none.]

Apart from a small logical error (There’s undisputed evidence that both of us do believe it was global 🙂 ), of course scientific evidence is unequivocal.

but doesn’t say nyolci read any of them.

Okay, I say now. I’ve read some of them.

Suggest you look up the definitions of “science” and “logic”

I did, I looked them up in the encyclopedia 🙂

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:20 am

All that yapping

Yet ZERO EVIDENCE.. just mindless mantra pap.

So funny !

You may have pretended to looked up “science” and “logic”…

… but its totally obvious you didn’t comprehend what either of them meant.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:46 am

of course scientific evidence is unequivocal.

That not even wrong…its preposterous blatherskite. What pray is ‘scientific’ evidence as opposed to plain ordinary facts?

You will be telling me next that if I look out of the window and it is cold, grey and wet, that in fact those ‘facts’ are unreliable whereas the scientific evidence from computer models shows that in fact its sunny, bright and warmer than it has been for a thousand years?

That may work on idiots who live in towns, Sonny Jim, but us country yokels know better.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 5, 2021 6:51 am

as opposed to plain ordinary facts?

What is a plain ordinary fact? Now really, have you ever seen an electron? A single one? Don’t be so stupid, nowadays plain ordinary facts are obtained with hard work.

You will be telling me next that if I look out of the window and it is cold, grey and wet, that in fact those ‘facts’ are unreliable

??? Who the hell said it was unreliable? A fact like this is a single observational data point. If you want to know how things go globally, you have to collect, analyze, transform thousands and thousands of data points like this. This is called science.

whereas the scientific evidence from computer models shows that in fact its sunny, bright and warmer than it has been for a thousand years?

Wrong on multiple counts. First of all, we are talking about reconstructions here, those are not the result of modelling. A good illustration how clueless you are about this. Secondly, scientific evidence shows that what we have today (however wet, gray and cold) is on average (repeat: average) still warmer than what we reconstructed for the early-mid middle ages. There may be places that were warmer (N.B. Europe mostly), and a lot of places may have been warmer for a short time (but not synchronously) than today. This is what science tells you.
Furthermore I look out of the window, and I see it’s cold, wet and gray now. When I was a kid, it was cold, shiny and snowy this time of the year. Nowadays the difference is perceptible. During a single lifetime and I’m cc 50.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:26 am

 If you want to know how things go globally, you have to collect, analyze, transform thousands and thousands of data points like this. This is called science.”

No, this is called hokum. Unless the uncertainty associated with each of those observations are recognized and carried through the entire chain of calculation then all those data points, when combined, represent nothing. You simply cannot assume that the stated value of the observations are 100% accurate like the climate scientists do so they can ignore the uncertainty analysis that goes with iteration of analyzing and transforming the data.

Even when you use a minimum and maximum temperature at a station to calculate a mid-range value if the uncertainty of each measurement is +/- 0.5C then the total uncertainty grows to +/- 0.8C. By the time you have combined thousands of data points your uncertainty has grown beyond what you are trying to measure!

That uncertainty remains whether you use the absolute temperatures or an anomaly calculated from a baseline. In fact, if your baseline has an uncertainty associated with it then that uncertainty adds to the value of the anomaly you calculate! The uncertainty of (a+b) and (a-b) grow the exact same way, root sum square!

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 5, 2021 9:08 am

Unless the uncertainty associated with each of those observations are recognized and carried through the entire chain of calculation

Who the fcuk told you uncertainty shouldn’t be taken into account?

You simply cannot assume that the stated value of the observations are 100% accurate like the climate scientists

Climate scientists are of course scientists for the precise reason they can handle things like this. Data needs transformation, everything has error bands that propagate etc. This is known stuff and they handle it right. That’s why they are scientists.
But there’s a thing you deniers should settle among themselves at last if you try to avoid being regarded as a clown or a flat earther. This is called consistency. Smith was masturbating about “plain facts” ‘cos well, he couldn’t understand why modern science needed such big detectors as the LIGO instead of your mere eyes. When I answered him you came with your BS about why science needed more transformation ‘cos well, you couldn’t understand that scientists were doing the right stuff. Consistency! Try harder!

By the time you have combined thousands of data points your uncertainty has grown beyond what you are trying to measure!

Sentences like this are good illustration why amateurs shouldn’t do science without first learning. I give you an extremely simple but illustrative example (tuned to you). When you toss a dice, the expected value is 3.5 with a variance of 2.91. When you average two, the expected value remains the same but the variance decreases to 1.46. This is a well know, basic result. Of course there are thousands of factors you have to consider (like independence etc.) for actual large scale observational data but I think you get the point (I really hope this is not beyond you). Properly combining measurements actually decreases uncertainty.

then that uncertainty adds to the value of the anomaly you calculate!

There’s no difference in uncertainty when you use variable X and when you use variable Z (the anomaly) where X = Xavg + Z in a time series. The variance is the function of Z^2 anyway, you doofus.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:54 am

nyholist again shows a complete lack of understanding of errors.

So funny !

At least go back to junior high and try just a little bit next time

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 12:15 pm

“When you toss a dice, the expected value is 3.5 with a variance of 2.91. When you average two, the expected value remains the same but the variance decreases to 1.46. This is a well know, basic result.“.

You’re only confirming your ignorance of data dude/dudette. Uncertainty in measurement IS NOT, again, IS NOT, a probability function. If you don’t know that, then you have no business trying to “school” someone who does.

Uncertainty is something you don’t know and can never know. It is not subject to variance or any other statistical treatment that can be reduced.

Something for you to cogitate. I read a thermometer and record 75 degrees. What is the interval that the temperature could have been at and why?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 2:27 pm

Uncertainty in measurement IS NOT, again, IS NOT, a probability function.

It was an illustration, you genius, I explicitly said that. A simple one so that you can understand that.

Uncertainty is something you don’t know and can never know.

Good god, another Einstein…

I read a thermometer and record 75 degrees. What is the interval that the temperature could have been at and why?

It depends on the thermometer. Back in the old days when I was a trainee engineer we calibrated various measurement instruments (mostly scales) and we had a very good idea of their uncertainty.
But I have a question to you. I’m pretty sure you know the answer to your question. How come if we don’t know and can never know?

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:56 pm

It was an illustration

A FAILED one… meaningless and erroneous

little nyholist yet again shows he has basically zero comprehension of “uncertainty”.

He says he is SURE of the uncertainty

Its cognitive malfunction yet again rears its wack-a-mole head.

So funny

Reply to  nyolci
January 6, 2021 9:00 am

Your illustration was an inaccurate portrayal of what uncertainty is. Don’t try to justify using something when you know nothing about it.

Uncertainty sure does have something to do with Einstein, you just don’t know and can never know.

You still didn’t answer the question I asked you. What is the minimum uncertainty in a recorded temperature of 75 degrees? It isn’t a hard question.

Although you may have learned the physical steps in calibrating an instrument, I sincerely doubt that you learned metrological reasons for what you were doing.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 6, 2021 3:57 pm

Your illustration was an inaccurate portrayal of what uncertainty is.

??? Look, the whole stochastic processes/statistics thing is about this. A properly set up random variable is an extremely good model. This is wikipedia, but I think even you can get the point:
The measurement uncertainty is often taken as the standard deviation of a state-of-knowledge probability distribution over the possible values that could be attributed to a measured quantity.

What is the minimum uncertainty in a recorded temperature of 75 degrees? It isn’t a hard question.

Okay, I don’t know 😉 Tell me, I’m curious! I’m pretty sure you also know that your question doesn’t make sense in its current form.

I sincerely doubt that you learned metrological reasons for what you were doing.

I was majoring what is best translated as “instrument and measurement technology” at university, finished MSc.

Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 10:38 am

With an MSc in measurement technology, you should know this stuff inside out, but obviously you never learned some things.

Wiki is not the best place to look for scientific information unless you know the answer already.

From thE GUM:

“2.2.2 In this Guide, the word “uncertainty” without adjectives refers both to the general concept of uncertainty and to any or all quantitative measures of that concept. When a specific measure is intended, appropriate adjectives are used.

2.2.3 The formal definition of the term “uncertainty of measurement” developed for use in this Guide and in the VIM [6] (VIM:1993, definition 3.9) is as follows:
uncertainty (of measurement)
parameter, associated with the result of a measurement, that characterizes the dispersion of the values that could reasonably be attributed to the measurand

NOTE 1 The parameter may be, for example, a standard deviation (or a given multiple of it), or the half‑width of an interval having a stated level of confidence.”

You should know that a temperature measurement is a non-repeatable event. It is a one time occurrence that immediately fades into the past and until time travel comes about, there is no way to make multiple measurements of that one time event.

That means there are no multiple measurements that can be treated statistically to determine a probability distribution and a standard deviation for this non-repeatable measurement.

Consequently, the only descriptive method of indicating measurement uncertainty is “the half‑width of an interval having a stated level of confidence“.

As such, a recorded temperature of 75 degrees also has a minimum uncertainty of +/-0.5 degrees. You simply do not know and can never know where the measurement actually lay, other than between 74.5 and 75.5 degrees. You can probably assume the real uncertainty is larger, as the NWS does.

I would have thought someone with your “scientific” background and education would live and die by metrology. You should know the GUM and this stuff inside and out. Why aren’t you schooling us on these issues with factual information?

I’m just lowly BSEE and have dealt with these issues for years in real life situations. Obviously I am teaching the teacher!

Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 7, 2021 11:52 am

You should know that a temperature measurement is a non-repeatable event. It is a one time occurrence that immediately fades into the past

Look, calibration is all about making repeatable experiments under controlled conditions. Pls. don’t give me the bs that we can’t do that.
Anyway, you arbitrarily picked an “interval having a stated level of confidence” here to be 1F (or C? I don’t know, you never mentioned, I guess F, please be more precise next time.) without any reason.

I’m just lowly BSEE

Yeah, I can see now why.

Reply to  nyolci
January 8, 2021 9:17 am

How do you make repeatable measurements of something as ephemeral as temperature? You keep missing the point. If you measure a temperature today at 8am then how, at 10am, can you remeasure the temperature at 8am?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 8, 2021 10:29 am

How do you make repeatable measurements of something as ephemeral as temperature?

How do you make repeatable measurements at all? Everything is trivially ephemeral, including your weight and (quite unexpectedly) the weight of an anvil.

If you measure a temperature today at 8am then how, at 10am, can you remeasure the temperature at 8am?

Your namesake (Jim) and I were talking about something a bit different: “there are no multiple measurements that can be treated statistically to determine a probability distribution“. Of course you can do that. You can make a reasonably stable “heat bath” precisely for this purpose. This is part of the calibration process of a thermometer. You can do virtually numberless experiments with the same thermometer, at the same temperature to discover its distribution. The way you stabilize the bath and determine its temperature is non trivial, and the way you calibrate the very precise thermometer used for this is even more complicated. This is a field of its own. Eventually you should be able to track anything back to the base etalons stored in Paris (well, it was like 25 years ago when I was doing calibrations, nowadays the basic units are determined by Physical definitions).
Of course you can cheat fate, eg. at 1 atm. melting ice is by definition 0C cold, and boiling water is 100C. Of course you have to stabilize air pressure, furthermore certain impurities in water like dissolved salt do affect these temperatures.

Reply to  nyolci
January 8, 2021 12:59 pm

How do you make repeatable measurements at all? Everything is trivially ephemeral, including your weight and (quite unexpectedly) the weight of an anvil.”

Really? An I-beam changes length from one moment to the next? Your weight changes amount from one moment to the next?

How do you measure the weight change of an anvil from moment to moment? Any weight change will be beyond the resolution of most measurement devices I have access to. Do you have something better?

“Of course you can do that. You can make a reasonably stable “heat bath” precisely for this purpose.”

ROFL!!! What does this have to do with measuring the temperature outside? Stop moving the goal posts!

“This is part of the calibration process of a thermometer. “

The second you take the thermometer out of the bath the calibration will begin to drift. It might change rapidly and it might change slowly – but how do you know when it is sitting in a box out in the middle of a 40 acre field?

” Eventually you should be able to track anything back to the base etalons stored in Paris (well, it was like 25 years ago when I was doing calibrations, nowadays the basic units are determined by Physical definitions).”

Take the Argo floats. They use a thermistor sensor capable of .001C resolution. The problem is that the conversion of the reading of the sensor depends of the salinity of the water flowing over the sensor as well as the amount of water flowing over the sensor. If a barnacle partially blocks the inlet to the float the sensor reading will be off. If the salinity of the water being measured doesn’t match the salinity of the calibration water the sensor reading will be off.

You can’t eliminate these through statistical analysis. All you can do is estimate the systemic uncertainty associated with the float from an unknown environment. That uncertainty has no probability distribution so statistics don’t apply.

It’s the same for a thermometer sitting out in a 40 acre field. A mud dauber wasp can build a nest that blocks air flow across the sensor. Ants can get in the box and leave dirt and grime caked on the sensor. Ice can accumulate during a storm and block air flow. All of these must be described by estimating the systemic uncertainty associated with each measurement from all possible causes in order to understand each measurement. You simply cannot assume that the stated value is 100% accurate the way climate scientists do and ignore the uncertainty for each measurement.

If you were truly trained in metrology and the physical sciences you would understand this. But you don’t seem to understand it at all. Either you didn’t pay attention in school or your school didn’t teach you the fundamentals of physical science.

Calibration in a lab is one thing, field measurements are something entirely different. How many times must people tell you this before it sinks in?

P.S. Why do you think the federal government says their measurement stations have a +/- 0.6C uncertainty? How many climate scientists include this uncertainty in anything they do?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 8, 2021 2:58 pm

Really? An I-beam changes length from one moment to the next?

Yes. A steel I-beam changes length exactly as fast as its temperature changes.

Your weight changes amount from one moment to the next?

Well, your example was like 8 am and 10 am. During that time your weight surely changes.

How do you measure the weight change of an anvil from moment to moment?

I don’t want to measure the weight change of an anvil. This was an illustration that if temperature is ephemeral, everything else is too. An anvil loose weight due to abrasion, this is minuscule but in a sense you can’t get the same measurement ever.

What does this have to do with measuring the temperature outside? Stop moving the goal posts!

Stop being an idiot. Calibration gives you the characteristic of the thermometer, ie. the probability distribution of readings around the actual temperature.

The second you take the thermometer out of the bath the calibration will begin to drift.

And what? Actually, drift is measured too for instruments that are important, and the term “recalibration” might be familiar to you too.

Take the Argo floats.

Sounds non trivial, yes. I’m pretty sure this is why measurement science is a science. Just as Climate Science is a science by the way.

All you can do is estimate the systemic uncertainty associated with the float from an unknown environment. That uncertainty has no probability distribution so statistics don’t apply.

You can only estimate if you have some previous knowledge otherwise you can’t say shit and just pull a value out of your ass. When you take “systemic uncertainty” from various sources into account you actually combine various random variables whether you like it or not.

If you were truly trained in metrology and the physical sciences you would understand this.

Exactly. I’m trained and I understand this.

P.S. Why do you think the federal government says their measurement stations have a +/- 0.6C uncertainty?

Well, evidently they combined those random variables 🙂 And this leads us to the next topic:

How many climate scientists include this uncertainty in anything they do?

All of them. An no, this uncertainty is not a problem, they treat that well, and won’t invalidate their results. And no, uncertainty won’t build up. To the contrary, it decreases. And you can detect trends that are well below uncertainty in magnitude (like 0.2C per decade warming). This is commonplace statistics, and your whining won’t change that.
And now I have a question to you: are Tim and Jim the same person in real life? Your wording, your obsession with some aspects of metrology, your apparent suspicion to anything that is theory, your complete misunderstanding of statistical analysis are very similar to him, not just your name that is just one letter apart.

Reply to  nyolci
January 8, 2021 3:23 pm

Really? An I-beam changes length from one moment to the next?

Yes. A steel I-beam changes length exactly as fast as its temperature changes.
——————————————————————

As I said, not using the typical measurement device for measuring I-beams. Nor does my weight change enough for a typical scale to tell. I’ve tried!

This was an illustration that if temperature is ephemeral, “

Now you are using the argumentative fallacy of False Analogy.

The anvil doesn’t go anywhere. You can make multiple measurements on it. Even if it changes slightly you can determine why.

A temperature taken at 8am? It’s gone in the next moment. You can’t determine if it changes slightly by taking multiple measurements of it. It doesn’t change – it can’t – because it is no longer there. All you can do with it is try to determine what the uncertainty of the measurement was!

Stop being an idiot. Calibration gives you the characteristic of the thermometer, ie. the probability distribution of readings around the actual temperature.”

Nope. Calibration does *NOT* tell you the uncertainty associated with a measurement. Uncertainty is *NOT* bias and uncertainty is *NOT* error.

You can only estimate if you have some previous knowledge otherwise you can’t say shit and just pull a value out of your ass. When you take “systemic uncertainty” from various sources into account you actually combine various random variables whether you like it or not.”

And what is the random variable probability distribution for a barnacle attaching to an Argo float inlet? What is the random variable probability distribution for a mud dauber wasp building a nest in the air inlet of a field measurement station?

Uncertainty has no probability distribution. It is a range inside of which the true value probably lies You have no idea if the true value is above or below the stated value. You don’t know how far below or above the stated value the true value might be! There is no way to say “the true value is exactly “x units” below the stated value – which you *could* do if uncertainty was a random variable with a probability distribution!

There is *no* random variable called uncertainty. Again, uncertainty has no probability function. Uncertainty is not error and it is not bias.

And no, uncertainty won’t build up. To the contrary, it decreases.”

How many references do I need to give you to convince that this is just a plain false statement by you?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
January 9, 2021 2:48 am

Nope. Calibration does *NOT* tell you the uncertainty associated with a measurement.

You determine the probability distribution using theoretical considerations and repeated measurements

Uncertainty is *NOT* bias and uncertainty is *NOT* error.

Exactly. The definition of uncertainty is “standard deviation”.

And what is the random variable probability distribution for a barnacle attaching to an Argo float inlet?

What is the “systemic uncertainty” associated with this and much more importantly how do you arrive to this particular value? The only value you (your Jim avatar) have given was 1(F I presume) for a hypothetical, non-specific thermometer, without any justification. Standard household (non digital, liquid) thermometers have much less uncertainty in their calibrated range, furthermore hospital thermometers are very exact in the 34C-44C range all the while they are being essentially a glass tube with a liquid. I can well imagine that the Argo buoys’ thermometer has a big range like +/- 1C. What I can’t imagine (and justifiably so) is that the determination of this value was not a result of a complicated series of studies and experiments that essentially mapped the various factors affecting the reading to random variables (however roughly). Furthermore, my hunch feeling is that quite a few systemic factors can be (and are) corrected for in this modern world like salinity, a fairly slowly changing value we have decades of experience measuring. The developers of the buoy can determine a very good approximation of salinity’s effect to the thermometer using measurements and theoretical considerations.

Uncertainty has no probability distribution. It is a range inside of which the true value probably lies

Please read again your very sentences. You can’t even define uncertainty without using some terminology from probability theory. How do we know where something “probably lies” (even often with quantified probability) if we don’t (even roughly) estimate a “probability distribution”? I’m sure you know well that uncertainty is usually taken to be the variance or std of the theoretically and/or experimentally determined probability distribution of the measuring instrument at certain points.

There is no way to say “the true value is exactly “x units” below the stated value – which you *could* do if uncertainty was a random variable with a probability distribution!

I’m kinda surprised to discover that you have a very vague understanding of what a random variable means. This is part of the basic literacy of a measurement expert (even for a BSEE if you are Jim).

How many references do I need to give you to convince that this is just a plain false statement by you?

Your Jim-self knows about the Central Limit “Theory” (correctly:
“Theorem”), one of those results (among many) of maths that has relevance here, and judging from the angry tone of his post he has been exposed to this in debates quite a few times during his career. But if you (or Jim) are really a BS of EE, you should know the commonplace knowledge of such a pedestrian thing as primitive moving window averaging of a spatio-temporal signal how effectively acts as a low pass filter reducing broad band noise while hardly affecting the signal. I don’t know whether you studied the theory behind but this is a related result and very illustrative for an EE.

Ron Ginzler
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:10 pm

nyolci, you looked up the definitions of “science” and “logic” in an encyclopedia? After I suggested this, or before? Did you take any high school or college courses in these subjects? Just checking. I won’t hold it against you if you didn’t.

Reply to  Ron Ginzler
January 6, 2021 3:58 pm

After I suggested this, or before?

During.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 9:05 pm

MWP was a hypothesis first discussed in the mid 60s

How typical of a warmunist, if the past doesn’t fit the narrative, rewrite the past.

This editorial contains a link to a 1934 New York Times article discussing the MWP.

https://realclimatescience.com/2018/12/erasing-the-medieval-warm-period/

MWP was a hypothesis first discussed in the mid 60s

How typical of a warmunist, if the past doesn’t fit the narrative, rewrite the past.

This editorial contains a link to a 1934 New York Times article discussing the MWP.

https://realclimatescience.com/2018/12/erasing-the-medieval-warm-period/

Finally, the mid 60s were hardly a time of rampant global warming denial.
If since they were discussing the MWP during that time, it was because they had actual data that proved it existed.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:43 am

If since they were discussing the MWP during [the 60s], it was because they had actual data that proved it existed.

Khm, do you understand what you wrote? I help you with a slight reformulation: it was because they had actual [proof]. Mark, you seemed to be the voice of reason lately in this crowd of confused “thinkers”. Why is this relapse? There was speculation about climatic conditions before the 60s, yes, based on historical sources. Historians especially noted the apparent contrast between medieval times and the early modern era of Europe. But that was speculation, without any quantifiable data. Now we have high quality reconstructions with data, so we have scientific knowledge of the era.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:21 am

Only confuse person here is you little monkey

You continue to yap mindlessly, without a shred of any science or evidence

Its like you are a failed lit student or something !

Boff Doff
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:33 am

First Greenland Ice cores were drilled in 1955. Complete cores were available by 1966.

Reply to  Boff Doff
January 5, 2021 7:00 am

First Greenland Ice cores were drilled in 1955.

Good on you. The first meaningful paleo-climatic reconstruction was in 1965 for England.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:56 am

WRONG ! and why suddenly bring up England as is that was what was being talked about

FOUND WRONG.. you just double down on your stupidity.

Hilarious.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:49 am

And we all say it , so it must be true! Thus spoke the Bandar Log, the Monkey people…

Really you are providing great entertainment, as you utter one logical fallacy after another.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 5, 2021 6:54 am

Really you are providing great entertainment, as you utter one logical fallacy after another.

Perhaps you should stop and think a bit before crying BS like this to someone who quotes scientific opinion.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:58 am

You have not stopped .. and you have never had a rational thought

Nor have you present any evidence except for propaganda sites.

You are a scientific NON-ENTITY.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 1:46 pm

Hey MarkW, I gave you answers here, and you dropped the topic, didn’t you?

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 7:57 pm

You did not give answer.. you gace mindless anti-science rants, based on NOTHING to do with actual science

Your answers were meaningless twaddle.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  nyolci
January 4, 2021 10:42 pm

I’m guessing that you’ve embarrassed yourself so completely with your nonsense comments that you’ve decided to slink off into obscurity once more. I suggest you look up the term “gish gallop” while you learn what “global” means.

Your comments about the Plantagenets and Thomas Aquinas clearly shows your understanding of how history works is as faulty as your grasp of science. The same lack of logic applies …

Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 5, 2021 1:45 am

I’m guessing that you’ve embarrassed yourself so completely with your nonsense comments

Well, you’re guessing wrong.

Your comments about the Plantagenets and Thomas Aquinas clearly shows

Why? 😉 Could you explain? Gonna be interesting…

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:23 am

You are too dumb and arrogant to feel embarrassment or shame by your deep-seated ignorance

You are actually PROUD of it !

And display it at every opportunity.

Herbert
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:26 am

nyolci,
Let me correct your views of Michael Mann and the Hockeystick paper MBH98 in the words of the late Professor Wallace Smith Broecker PhD.-
“The goddam guy is a slick talker and super confident. He won’t listen to anyone else.
I don’t trust people like that. A lot of the data sets he uses are shitty, you know. They are just not up to what he is trying to do…. if anyone deserves to get hit it is goddam Mann….”
I think you know who Professor Broecker is.
Do you think that Professor Broecker one of the 10 most acclaimed mainstream climate scientists ever and the man who reportedly invented the term “global warming” in 1975 is part of a “Gish gallop”?
The hockey stick is discredited.Period.

Reply to  Herbert
January 5, 2021 2:12 am

Professor Wallace Smith Broecker PhD.-

So case closed? 🙂 Broecker simply didn’t like the style of Mann. He didn’t dismiss his results, and anyway, later they were on good terms. FYI Broecker was a, how should I call it, a warmist.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/19/climate-change-science-pioneer-wallace-smith-broecker-dies

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:24 am

Quoting the gruniad

Its about your level of science

ie BELOW ZERO !!

John Doran
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:30 am

Nyolci you seem not to know that Mann pursued Dr. Tim Ball, honest climatologist, through the courts. Mann lost a multi-year, million$ case.
http://www.principia-scientific.com is a site dedicated to truth in science, co-founded by Dr. Ball. Put Ball defeats Mann in the search box.
Full costs were awarded to Dr. Tim Ball, & true to his dishonest character Mann fled to Australia, one step ahead of the debt collectors.

Reply to  John Doran
January 5, 2021 2:15 am

This was a libel case, dismissed on procedural grounds.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 3:25 am

Yep, Mann chickened out refusing to put forward his data and methods of fabrication

Just like you… a deep seated FRAUDSTER.

No wonder he is your hero.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:33 am

No, dismissed because Mann was ordered by the court to provide the data for the Hokey Schtick, which he failed to do. The court found against him on the grounds of Adverse Inference. Costs awarded entirely to Ball.

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 5, 2021 6:57 am

No, dismissed because Mann was ordered by the court to provide the data for the Hokey Schtick, which he failed to do

This was a libel case and Bell should’ve provided evidence for his assertion. Furthermore, courts in modern times never do arbitration in scientific matters. They wisely leave that to scientists. The dismissal was due to some procedural error without any consideration.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:25 am

Mann was ordered by the courts to produce his data.
Mann refused.
Mann’s libel case was dismissed.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:57 am

The suit was based on Mann’s assertion, not Ball’s. It was Mann that needed to show HIS assertion was valid. If he had done quality scientific study, he could have presented it in court and shown that Ball’s statement about him was libel.

He didn’t do that, because allowing his “work” to be exposed to the light of day would achieve about the same thing as what happens in the movies when Dracula steps into the sunshine.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:50 am

Again you show your ignorance of the case, here is what the JUDGE says on WHY he shuts it down:

[13] With respect to prejudice, such prejudice is presumed unless the prejudice is rebutted. Indeed, the presumption of prejudice is given even more weight in defamation cases: Samson v. Scaletta, 2016 BCSC 2598, at paras 40-43. The plaintiff has not filed any evidence rebutting the presumption of prejudice.

[14] Moreover, the defendant has led actual evidence of actual prejudice. The evidence is that the defendant intended to call three witnesses at trial who would have provided evidence going to fair comment and malice. Those witnesses have now died. A fourth witness is no longer able to travel. Thus, in addition to finding that presumption of prejudice has not been rebutted, I also find that there has been actual prejudice to the defendant as a consequence of the delay.

[15] Turning to the final factor, I have little hesitation in finding that, on balance, justice requires the action be dismissed. The parties are both in their eighties and Dr. Ball is in poor health. He has had this action hanging over his head like the sword of Damocles for eight years and he will need to wait until January 2021 before the matter proceeds to trial. That is a ten year delay from the original alleged defamatory statement. Other witnesses are also elderly or in poor health. The memories of all parties and witnesses will have faded by the time the matter goes to trial.

[16] I find that, because of the delay, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for there to be a fair trial for the defendant. This is a relatively straightforward defamation action and should have been resolved long before now. That it has not been Mann v. Ball resolved is because the plaintiff has not given it the priority that he should have. In the circumstances, justice requires that the action be dismissed and, accordingly, I do hereby dismiss the action for delay. 

bolding mine

======

The reason WHY Dr. Mann was dragging it out for over 8 years was his lack of libel evidence to present.

You are once again exposed as a very ignorant person.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 5, 2021 1:56 pm

This is a relatively straightforward defamation action and should have been resolved long before now. That it has not been Mann v. Ball resolved is because the plaintiff has not given it the priority that he should have.

This is exactly dismissal on procedural grounds.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:00 pm

Yep, Mickey mann could not allow “DISCOVERY”

If he had submitted what the judged asked for,

…. the whole stinking hockey stick edifice would have come crashing down,

…. taking mann’s funders and the whole AGW SCAM with it.

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:24 am

The procedural grounds were that Mann refused to reply to the court order requests for information.

Are you really that desperate to protect Mann’s reputation?

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:52 am

Yes, the “procedural grounds” being that Mann refused to provide his data and methods and allow them to be put up to scrutiny which he knew they would not stand up to, thereby providing absolute defense against his claim of libel – that being “TRUTH.”

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:44 am

Wrong, it was stopped because Dr. Mann wasn’t pursuing his lawsuit, he was foot dragging it out.

The Judge agreed with the defendants request to summarily end the lawsuit.

Ed Zuiderwijk
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 1:55 am

Every court needs a jester. Good try, you’re hired.

Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
January 5, 2021 6:58 am

Every court needs a jester.

Thanks for your application. You are hired. You have good references. No pay though.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 11:59 am

YAWN

You are more the bottom scale of village idiots.

Richard Page
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 2:05 am

Actually I did read some of them, as well as Michael Mann’s study of past temperature proxies. Compared to the papers I read, Mann’s work is limited and lacking sufficient ‘weight’ of evidence. On balance, Mann comes across as far less convincing than other studies – he fails to make a good enough case for the MWP being purely regional whilst other studies are robust and comprehensive. There is a reason why Mann’s work has been dismissed whilst others showing a global MWP have endured and that is because they are scientifically robust and his just isn’t. The case has been made for a global MWP so far.

Reply to  Richard Page
January 5, 2021 7:05 am

Actually I did read some of them, as well as Michael Mann’s study of past temperature proxies.

A step in the good direction, congratulations!

he fails to make a good enough case for the MWP being purely regional

He didn’t make any case for that. He didn’t specifically researched that period, and his first reconstruction only had a time window back to 1400. The result of his research showed it was (at least in terms of temperature) a local phenomenon.

There is a reason why Mann’s work has been dismissed

It wasn’t dismissed. You have a long way to go. But you’ve taken the first step!

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 12:03 pm

“first reconstruction only had a time window back to 1400”

So not back to the MWP.

He IGNORED much data, used a single tree, badly
.
Turned data upside down

A LOT of scientific and statistical malfeaces went into the construction of that farcical piece of ANTI-SCIENCE

He was TASKED with getting rid of the MWP, and was prepared to do “whateverittakes” to manufacture the LIE.

Mann’s work HAS been dismissed as total GARBAGE by anyone with a rational scientific mind, and not in the AGW trough. .

Richard Page
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 12:58 pm

Oh, I see what you did there. You cherry picked a few words out of the whole post (and out of context), twisted them until they fit YOUR narrative and bore no relation to the original. Oh, I wonder where you learned to do that? #sarc

Bill Toland
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 2:33 am

Sea levels have been considerably higher in most of the last 10,000 years which shows that the temperatures were higher then.

https://notrickszone.com/2017/08/21/10000-to-5000-years-ago-global-sea-levels-were-3-meters-higher-temperatures-4-6-c-warmer/

Reply to  Bill Toland
January 5, 2021 7:06 am

Sea levels have been considerably higher in most of the last 10,000 years

And what? This is completely in line with scientific opinion. No one claimed otherwise. Furthermore this has nothing to do specifically with the MWP (when sea levels were lower than today).

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:25 am

If sea levels were higher, that’s evidence that global temperatures were higher.
Case closed.

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 2:31 pm

If sea levels were higher, that’s evidence that global temperatures were higher. Case closed.

Well, no. The current change is so fast sea level has had no time to catch up. In other words, we are not in equilibrium now. Even if warming miraculously stopped in this very moment, sea levels would rise for quite a long time.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:05 pm

”Well, no. The current change is so fast sea level has had no time to catch up.”

Ahhhhahahahahaha What a moron!

Reply to  MarkW
January 5, 2021 2:37 pm

If sea levels were higher

I’ve just checked and no, they weren’t even higher. Case closed.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:07 pm

I’ve just checked ”

Oh please stop! You’re killing me!

Bill Toland
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:11 pm

comment image&f=1&nofb=1

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 6, 2021 3:26 am

I’ve just checked and no, they weren’t even higher.

WRONG as always. They were higher.

Ignorance is the ONLY defense you are capable of..

Bill Toland
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:21 am
Reply to  Bill Toland
January 5, 2021 2:38 pm

No. Various multiproxy reconstructions show otherwise.

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 6:50 pm

Let’s see them.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 8:04 pm

WRONG, Ocean proxies show MWP was WARMER

Deliberate DENIAL of science doesn’t help your DENIALIST position…. AT ALL.

Make you look like a low-end village idiot, actually

comment image

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Bill Toland
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 9:58 pm

More evidence that sea level was higher in the Medieval Warm Period.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/02/history-falsifies-climate-alarmist-sea-level-claims/

Bill Toland
Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 10:03 pm

comment image&f=1&nofb=1

Reply to  nyolci
January 5, 2021 4:13 am

I can show you incontrovertible evidence that the mediaeval warming period, or at least its demise, were very well known, to Edwardian authors of historical fiction at least, as prior to the Black Death that ravaged Europe, there had been a ‘year without a summer’, and massive crop failures. In fact many people attribute the virulence and the death rate of that disease to a population in famine. And in contrast to what you might expect, as far as records of births and deaths go, the Britain at least, never recovered its pre plague populations until the onset of the industrial revolution. Why? one answer is that the little ice age limited crop production and hence populations, until the arrival of fertilisers, ploughs and crop rotation..the evidence is everyweher, from Roman wine growing in Scandinavia, to Viking colonies and cow bones found in Greenland, that things were much warmer than now, and then got much colder in the little ice age. Glaciers now retreating are uncovering tree remains that date to a thousand years old, when presumably the glaciers were not there.

It has gotten to the stage where the only people who believe Mann’s narrative are those who don’t know anything about palaeoclimatology.

All the scientists I meet who have some reason to know, rather than just accept the popular narrative, are united in their scepticism. But it’s more than the jobs worth to say that publicly.

Even people with no scientific understanding whatsoever have come out against it for entirely different reasons. If it looks like a duck , quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck, and from the get go Climate Change has been handled with all the subtlety and the plethora of test tools, not as a piece of emergent science, but as a marketing campaign.

97% consensus,… people believe that…scientists have clearly removed all doubt, the science is settled…wild animal species at risk….human future at risk…your children wont even know what snow is…big oil is lying to you…people who disagree are as bad as holocaust deniers…peddling fake science…opinion polls show… these are not tools of science, these are the tools of marketing. To generate a fake emotional narrative using every pejorative and emotive trick in the book, and monitor how effectively it is believed.

It’s just a remake of the 1960s cold war AgitProp anti-nuclear propaganda…Project Fear and Loathing, White hats vote left, black hats are deplorable right voting and evil, bent on destroying the world for profit and personal gain (why would they, for heavens sake? would anyone willingly destroy the world? Vast swathes of populations, yes – genocide is always popular – but the planet itself?)

This is not science, this is political theatre, a marketing campaign of massive proportions, and seen to be so by at least one commentator who has nothing to say amount the science whatsoever.

Cui Bono? asks Cicero, who gets rich?

Keep asking.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 6, 2021 4:06 pm

I can show you incontrovertible evidence that the mediaeval warming period, or at least its demise, were very well known, to Edwardian authors

Yes. That was early speculation. Now we have numbers.

And in contrast to what you might expect, as far as records of births and deaths go, the Britain at least, never recovered its pre plague populations until the onset of the industrial revolution.

Historic population reconstructions were extremely inaccurate, so again, Edwardian authors might have only guessed about this.

January 4, 2021 2:54 pm

Are we able to compare the rates of warming during the MWP to the last century? I have noticed in some of the more recent literature people supporting AGW have had to admit to more recent warm periods than now, so the argument seems to have been more focused on the rate of of change of warming being the big issue, not the actual overall temperature.

fred250
Reply to  Diggs
January 4, 2021 3:11 pm

No, there is not sufficient resolution of past data to compare rates of warming.

The rate of change was almost certainly MUCH GREATER and longer sustained in the period up to the Holocene optimum.

Anything else is nothing but a tiny wiggle.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  fred250
January 4, 2021 10:44 pm

That’s right. The rate of warming following the Younger Dryas was orders of magnitude more pronounced than post LIA.

Reply to  Diggs
January 4, 2021 3:24 pm

Little by little, the Warmunists are retreating. They have been forced by the weight of evidence to accept that the MWP is real, so their new line of defence is to claim that the rate of modern warming is abnormal.

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 4, 2021 7:03 pm

….. and, here we go again,- right on cue from AP. How did I guess the article was from Seth Goebbelstein, the great climate liar enabler, after reading just the title.

https://apnews.com/article/climate-climate-change-pollution-3f226aed9c58e36c69e7342b104d48bf

Dessler said. “It’s really the rate of warming that makes climate change so terrible.” 

…. preceded by this gem:

“Places such as the Southern Ocean, surrounding Antarctica are a bit cooler, and that difference creates low-lying clouds that reflect more sun away from earth, keeping these places cooler. But this situation can’t keep going indefinitely because physics dictates that cooler locations will warm up more and when they do, the clouds will dwindle and more heating will occur.”

You put your left arm in
Your left arm out
In out, in out,
You shake it all about
You do the Okey-Cokey
And you turn around
That’s what it’s all about

MarkW
Reply to  philincalifornia
January 4, 2021 9:11 pm

I love how in their desperation to ignore reality, they end up refuting each other.

The gospel of global warming requires a massive amount of positive feedback based on the belief that relative humidity will stay the same.

If warming results in fewer clouds, that means relative humidity is dropping, not staying constant.

Beyond that we have the standard warmunist belief that in polar regions, most sunlight is absorbed by water. It is not, at low angles of incidence, most sunlight is reflected, not absorbed.

MarkW
Reply to  Diggs
January 4, 2021 3:33 pm

This argument is actually further evidence of the inability of the average warmunist to actually understand science. When you have a proxy with a resolution of 10, 100 or even 1000 years, you simply can’t compare it to a temperature record with daily resolution.

Reply to  MarkW
January 4, 2021 4:10 pm

We don’t even need the MWP

centraleurpoeantarcicatemps.JPG
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Mike
January 4, 2021 6:07 pm

Love that chart!

Another refutation of the Human-caused Climate Change/Global Warming claims.

It’s not any warmer today than in the past. CO2 is “missing in action”.

Reply to  Mike
January 4, 2021 11:28 pm

Could you post the source of that chart, thanks.

Reply to  Climate believer
January 5, 2021 6:48 pm

There is a link to the paper there as well..

Reply to  Diggs
January 4, 2021 7:26 pm

Diggs–“the rate of of change of warming being the big issue, not the actual overall temperature”
Where do you get that garbage?
Just look at out oldest thermometer record, the CET:

A look at the same data shows several rapid warmings, ALL of which were faster than recently.
1692 to 1733 was from 7.73 to 10.5  for 2.77 degree in 41 years, or 0.068 /yr
1784 to 1828 was from 7.85 to 10.32 for 2.47 degree in 44 years, or 0.056 /yr
1879 to 1921 was from 7.44 to 10.51 for 3.07 degree in 42 years, or 0.073 /yr
1963 to 2014 was from 8.52 to 10.95 for 2.43 degree in 51 years, or 0.048 /yr

From: http://www.debunkingclimate.com/no-rapid-warming.html#no-rapid-warming

fred250
Reply to  JimK
January 4, 2021 8:46 pm

CET 1997 – 2020 very slightly negative…. essentially ZERO WARMING.

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Reply to  JimK
January 4, 2021 9:52 pm

Hi JimK,

Thanks for the info. Not my garbage, just pointing out what gets pushed now when some people are questioned about the ideal temp for the planet or when they are shown it has been warmer in the past. philincalifornia above linked to a current news item and a quick google search on earths ideal temp will return a variety of excuses. Thats why I was looking to file some graphs that compared the warming rates of the various warmer periods.

https://mashable.com/2018/02/14/what-is-earths-ideal-temperature/

https://skepticalscience.com/earths-ideal-temp.html
(warning, serious nausea alert to above video, but I am sure the 5 year olds get it)

Mr.
January 4, 2021 2:55 pm

Charles, when you say that the incoming president has been fooled by “detection and attribution” studies into the Medieval warm period, you have to treat this assertion with some caution.

Note, according to Joe’s recollections – he was there.

fred250
Reply to  Mr.
January 4, 2021 3:12 pm

I would say he is fooled by his own memories……..

But he has forgotten them.

Seems he may be hoping to renew childhood memories by sniffing children’s hair.

Solar Mutant Ninjaneer
January 4, 2021 3:01 pm

Seems to me that the MWP fits perfectly with climate science. Ice cores clearly show that CO2 concentrations increases about 1000 years after temperatures increases. So according to “climate science” our CO2 emissions are causing the MWP of 1000 years ago. /sarc (Makes as much sense as the rest of the so-called “climate science.)

Reply to  Solar Mutant Ninjaneer
January 4, 2021 4:14 pm

Ice cores clearly show that CO2 concentrations increases about 1000 years after temperatures increases”
I have seen this said many times. I would like it explained because it make no sense to me.

Peter W
Reply to  Mike
January 4, 2021 4:57 pm

It has to do with the oceans. They warm more slowly than the land, and cold water absorbs more CO2.

David A
Reply to  Peter W
January 5, 2021 12:51 am

…and it has to do with the resolution of the studies, many of which are on a scale of one to three centuries. So the CO2 lag has a range estimate of 300 to 1000 years, as the CO2 resolution it self is quite broad, and the ocean outgassing is rather slow.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Solar Mutant Ninjaneer
January 5, 2021 10:20 am

Some portion of modern CO2 level rise is exactly what is reflected in the ice core reconstructions – it is (in part) increasing due to the MWP warmth having worked its way through ocean cycles, thereby leading to more “emissions” of CO2 from ocean to atmosphere.

Also thought it was 800 years (plus or minus quite a bit), but same result.

January 4, 2021 3:08 pm

There’s always an escape hatch for climate liars.
You can show them 100 regions with MWP, and they will always claim that other regions for which there’s no data must have cooled enough to offset these regions. And what can we say to that?

There ain’t no rest for the wicked.

MarkW
Reply to  Zoe Phin
January 4, 2021 3:40 pm

Yet these same activists will then turn around and declare that it doesn’t matter that in many places, temperature problems are hundreds of miles apart, because they can just assume that the areas between the sensors must have been behaving the same as the surrounding sensors.

Reply to  Zoe Phin
January 4, 2021 3:42 pm

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
January 4, 2021 3:59 pm

Yes, and they will claim we’re the ones making the extraordinary claim without evidence.

Absence of evidence MUST support them.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Zoe Phin
January 4, 2021 10:52 pm

Hell, their entire premise “anthropogenic climate change” is founded on an appeal to ambiguity … equivocation. At least AGW was falsifiable … bad science, with no evidence but at least theoretically falsifiable. “Climate change” is merely a tautology … rubbish.

Reply to  Zoe Phin
January 5, 2021 5:45 am

Not so much wicked as self-deceived.
They are very much like cryptozoologists. Just because the Bigfoot hasn’t been found where we are looking just means he must be elsewhere.

It’s very similar actually. With the IT revolution there are phones and cameras everywhere. But no more evidence comes up.
That ought to worry them. But it doesn’t.

With Argo buoys and satellites and supercomputers the climate sensitivity should be easier to calculate. But it’s had the same uncertainty for 40 years.
That ought to worry them. But it doesn’t.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  M Courtney
January 5, 2021 10:28 am

And they put up instruments that were supposed to “show us” how atmospheric water vapor was rising due to the imaginary pulled-out-of-their-anus “positive feedback” that was going to multiply the (already purely hypothetical and in reality nonexistent) “climate driving” effect of CO2 of about ONE degree Celsius per doubling of concentration and turn it into 3-6 degrees per doubling.

Then quietly stopped “supporting” that project when no such result was found, without so much as a whisper about the failure to find what they “expected.”

That ought to worry them too. But it doesn’t. AGW has become “religion wearing a “scientist” outfit.”

Weekly_rise
Reply to  Zoe Phin
January 5, 2021 7:56 am

This is not accurate. The science tells us that many regions around the world experienced changes during the MWP, and in some places and at some times, temperatures were quite warm. The major difference between the MWP and today is that these changes lacked global coherence. See Neukom et al. for more on this:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1401-2

The confusion seems to be that when skeptics see “the MWP was not globally synchronous” what they hear is, “the MWP only had expression in a few isolated spots,” which is inaccurate. Think of it like a whack-a-mole board. Today we are seeing all or most of the moles popped out of their holes all at once. During the MWP, moles were popping in and out of holes all over the board for a period of time, and we might even conclude that at some point during the MWP, most or every mole popped up at least once, but that doesn’t make the pattern of moles during the MWP directly analogous to today, where they’re popped out all at the same time.

January 4, 2021 3:12 pm

Many warmists like to claim that the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was ONLY regional. As if that means that it is not important.

But what these warmists don’t realise, is that the present day global warming is ONLY regional, as well. Global warming is not really global.

Can I prove that? Of course I can. I divided the earth up into 8 equal sized areas, by latitude. They were:

  • 90N to 48N
  • 48N to 30N
  • 30N to 14N
  • 14N to Equator
  • Equator to 14S
  • 14S to 30S
  • 30S to 48S
  • 48S to 90S

As you move from north to south, the warming rate decreases consistently.

  • From +3.98
  • to +2.53
  • to +1.99
  • to +1.63
  • to +1.61
  • to +1.29
  • to +1.07
  • to +0.26

(all in degrees Celsius per century).

For the full article, with graphs, see:
https://agree-to-disagree.com/new-regional-warming

Reply to  Sheldon Walker
January 4, 2021 4:46 pm

If the planet was all water or all land you would probably see even numbers.
Have you tried to work out the difference percentage wise?
$40% Nth, 20% Sth??

gbaikie
Reply to  Mike
January 4, 2021 5:08 pm

If Earth was all water, it would be much warmer.
Or at moment average ocean is about 17 C and average land is
10 C. And I would say average of all water would be at least 17 C.
If all land, I would say far less than 10 C, probably cooler than -10 C.

But by re-arranging the 70% ocean and 30% land, one make significant
difference in global air temperature.
Or we living in different world because it has been re-arranged by plate
tectonic activity.
We are living in Ice Age due to geological processes which resulted in Earth
having a cold ocean. And Antarctica moving to the south pole is only one example
of this change. Though many consider it, a quite significant aspect that explains why we are in an Ice Age.

Reply to  gbaikie
January 4, 2021 5:49 pm

The average temperature of the land (averaged by area for 216 countries, but excluding Antarctica) is 15.6 degrees Celsius.

The average temperature that humans live at (averaged over the total population of the Earth) is 19.7 degrees Celsius.

This shows that people avoid living in the colder locations, and choose to live in the warmer locations. The average human lives at a temperature that is 4.1 degrees Celsius warmer than the average land temperature.

As the earth warms, more of the cold land will become suitable for humans, animals, and plants. Food will be able to be produced on this cold land.

You can see the average, winter, and summer temperatures, and population, graphed for 216 countries in this article
https://agree-to-disagree.com/why-is-climate-science-different

David A
Reply to  gbaikie
January 5, 2021 12:55 am

Not certain you have the land average correct, yet I tend to agree, the oceans are a Liquid Greenhouse, greatly increasing the residence time of solar insolation.

Reply to  Sheldon Walker
January 4, 2021 9:01 pm

Interesting article you made, but there are no links for the data you must have used to make those charts and more.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 4, 2021 11:18 pm

The data that was used for all of the graphs was NASA GISTEMP LOTI (Land and Ocean temperature index) Gridded temperature anomaly data.

I usually use NASA GISTEMP data because Alarmists trust that more than other temperature series.

fred250
January 4, 2021 3:16 pm

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/08fb/cc48a931a0f82e1c97fa79302533b3c1d68d.pdf

(Edward R Cook).. not Lewy’s pet psycho-alarmist.

The identification of a MWP sensu latoin NewZealand adds an important new datum to the debate con-cerning its large-scale occurrence and supports Broecker’s[2001] argument that it was indeed global

czechlist
January 4, 2021 3:36 pm

“As of now, that seems to have fooled almost all of academia, the media, journalists, Hollywood celebrities, and billionaires. Also the incoming President.”
They are not fooled; they are politically motivated and/or cowards .They are like a high school clique – the “jocks” the “cheerleader rah-rahs” the band with their groupies. They are the Baby Boomers and their spoiled kids who believe popularity is primary and are terrified they will be excluded from the “in crowd” and the toney cocktail parties. They are materialistic – “whoever dies with the most toys ($$$) wins” – narcissists with unsatiable avarice..They promote conservation and environmental issues while they pollute the planet with their lust for pleasure and attention. They are merely HYPOCRITES.

fred250
January 4, 2021 3:50 pm

Modern global ocean heat content dwarfed by Medieval values

comment image

January 4, 2021 4:18 pm

Here is my boiler plate on the subject:
3000 years ago, there was the Minoan Warm period. Man did not emit CO2, but it was warmer than now.

Then 1000 years later, there was the Roman warm period. Man did not emit CO2, but it was warmer than now.

Then 1000 years later, there was the Medieval warm period. Man did not emit CO2, but it was warmer than now.

Then 1000 years later, came our current warm period. They claim whatever caused those earlier warm periods suddenly quit causing warm periods, only to be replaced by man’s CO2 emission, perfectly in time for the cycle of warmth every 1000 years stay on schedule. Not very believable.

The entire climate scam crumbles on this one observation because it shows that there is nothing unusual about today’s temperature and ALL claims of unusual climate are based on claims of excess warmth caused by man’s CO2.

Variations include:
Or are they going to say that whatever caused warm periods in the past has quit so that man’s CO2 could take over the job?
—-
Please explain why whatever caused warming periods every 1000 years, QUIT JUST IN TIME FOR man’s CO2 to become the cause of our current warm period, which is right on the schedule of warmth about every 1000 years. 

I would be very interested if there is any logical comeback to this.
Thanks
JK

Rory Forbes
Reply to  JimK
January 4, 2021 11:01 pm

I have been offering a similar observation from time to time wherever comment sections exist. So far I have received nothing but insults and hand waving from the AGW true believers. I even get insults from the true believers in the importance of the GHE and the powerful magic of CO2. I have never seen any actual evidence that humans have had any measurable effect whatever.

David A
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 5, 2021 1:01 am

…and good to remember that the sneaky Mann eliminated the LIA as well!

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 5, 2021 10:54 am

If you want to hear crickets from the AGW true believers, just remind them that atmospheric CO2 FOLLOWS temperature in the ice core reconstructions, up and down, with a similar time lag, over and over.

And each time that whatever is (excuse me) REALLY causing the temperature to rise stops, what we SHOULD see, but don’t see, as long as CO2 levels continue to rise, is temperatures continuing to rise, but at a reduced rate. That reduced rate being the, you know, “contribution” of rising CO2 to the rise of temperatures the climate fascists insist is there during the period that both are moving in the same direction.

What we DO see, instead, is that temperatures start FALLING, WHILE CO2 LEVELS CONTINUE TO RISE. That is to say, we REPEATEDLY see HUNDREDS OF YEARS of REVERSE CORRELATION between CO2 levels and temperatures in the ice core paleoclimate record.

So unless you’re logically disabled, it SHOULD be clear that CO2 “drives” absolutely nothing. Never has, doesn’t now, and never will.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
January 5, 2021 2:46 pm

I began my odyssey into the arcane mysteries of climate when David Suzuki and Paul Ehrlich were promoting their Neo-Malthusian fear mongering and the “consensus” of climate “scientists” were convinced that our interglacial would end soon. I was even somewhat convinced … somewhat, as much as a skeptic can be “convinced”.
Well, fool me once shame on you – fool me twice shame on me. I dug my heals in when people like Schneider did a 180 degree switch in outcomes from the same basic science. Evidence free science might be compelling to some, but not to me. When the lion’s share of reporting on the “science” requires at least 3 varieties of logical fallacy, I know we’re being defrauded.

Reply to  AGW is Not Science
January 6, 2021 5:00 am

This fact is the logical refutation of the central AGW hypothesis, namely that atmospheric CO2 controls global temperatures, rather than vice versa. The entire CAGW edifice collapses as a result.

There is a YouTuber/Troll named Potholer54, who has tried to wriggle out of this by claiming that CO2 does not initiate warming, but creates positive warming feedback once it is released. Of course, this is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. He has never explained how this does not lead to a thermal runaway,despite being challenged many times.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 6, 2021 1:03 pm

Not only does it not lead to a thermal runaway, but no increase in the rate of warming is seen in the reconstructions after the ~800 year lag has ended and both temp and CO2 are rising. Also, CO2 can’t seem to continue the invisible “contribution” once the (excuse me) real drivers change direction.

I can’t help but flash back to George Carlin’s skit on religion…

“There’s an invisible man! And you better do what he says! But he loves you. And he needs money!”

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  JimK
January 5, 2021 10:44 am

Just to add to your observation – every warm climate period during the current epoch, the Holocene, going back in time from present day was warmer than all of those which followed. The Medieval Warm Period was warmer than today; the Roman Warm Period warmer than the Medieval Warm Period; the Minoan Warm Period warmer than the Roman Warm Period, and the Holocene Climate OPTIMUM the warmest of them all.

January 4, 2021 4:29 pm

It’s thoroughly depressing when you come to the stark realisation that “climate science” is not actually science at all. It needs to <b>look</b> like science so that it can be used to influence politicians to do the right things (as in “we listen to the science”).

It cannot be science as we know it, because the conclusions of every study are established before the study starts, before the data collection, and then any number of tricks are used to make sure the data tell the right story.

The (18th century) Enlightenment made rigorous and objective data collection, logic, deduction, inference and reason the underlying principles of the relationship between human society and the natural world. The Age of Reason has had a good run – 250 years! It was fun while it lasted, but it’s over now. R.I.P.

January 4, 2021 5:24 pm

Not inclinded to go looking for it again. But there is an older reference on sea levels, a whole volume of info by a geologist that does not have global warming in his funding stream.

Sea levels in this period were a meter higher than now.

Photios
January 4, 2021 5:26 pm

The late John L Daly produced a surgical dissection of the Mad Mann’s hockey stick years ago: The `Hockey Stick’: A New Low in Climate Science

If anyone would like to read it again, click on: http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm

It is a very good read.

Reply to  Photios
January 5, 2021 5:27 am

Interesting- I didn’t know Mann had a connection with U. Mass- my alma mater. Makes sense that Mass. is in the lead on AGW. It was Mass. that sued the EPA in 2017 demanding that it declare the endangerment finding. This state has just passed a bill to have the state net free by 2050 and 40% of electric power by 2030 while shutting down all nuclear and coal power plants. It’s begun covering the state with solar “farms” and it’ll soon be building wind turbines at sea- yet as of now, only a tiny percent of power comes from wind and solar. I keep asking state politicians and enviro groups how many acres of land will be covered with solar “farms” to make all this happen and what will it cost. I get no answers. Read about the state’s energy bill at https://www.wcvb.com/article/massachusetts-legislature-passes-landmark-climate-change-bill-january-4-2021/35124270#.

OweninGA
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 5, 2021 9:43 am

If I was a neighboring utility, I would make sure that the interconnects to Mass suddenly broke so they could not fall back on any neighboring nuclear or coal. It seems to me, most of these states make their “0 carbon” goals with full faith and knowledge that they will get bailed out when the SHTF.

Felix
January 4, 2021 5:27 pm

I remember a long time ago, back when the next Ice Age was the big fear, some puzzle that the Earth should have been in an ice age 5-10,000 years ago if it had followed a “normal” schedule, and a hypothesis that agriculture had released enough green house gases to hold the ice age off.

This is all a very vague memory. I’m sure I have even these vague details wrong.

John Doran
Reply to  Felix
January 5, 2021 12:59 am

Felix, you’re quite correct. From about 1945 to 1975 Earth cooled & the big ICE AGE COMING scare was promoted.
Heaven and Earth Global Warming: the Missing Science by geology Prof. Ian Plimer is a great read. Hefty at 500+ pages & 2000+ ref’s, but worth it.

Reply to  Felix
January 5, 2021 2:28 am

Those of a certain age like myself who grew up in the 1970’s will remember the Great Global Cooling Scare. There was indeed cooling from 1940-1980, despite rapidly increasing atmospheric CO2. The Warmunists have done their best to erase this Incovenient Fact. We must rub their noses in it at every opportunity.

Richard Page
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 5, 2021 11:40 am

Indeed I do – had a teacher at school that went on about it at every opportunity. Iirc the past interglacials have been of 2 approximate periods and we are currently somewhere between the length of the short interglacials and the length of the long interglacials – so, both overdue and not yet due for an ice age at the same time!

commieBob
January 4, 2021 6:08 pm

The alarmists have the problem that anywhere people could read and write during the Medieval Warm Period, they described what was happening. So, there are a lot of historians who study the period. <a href=”https://web.stanford.edu/~moore/HistoryEcon.html”>warmer is richer</a>

January 4, 2021 6:22 pm

A study by climate scientists at the Univ of Bern says that they were all regional, from the Holocene Climate Optimum to the Little Ice Age. And therefore the only global thing we have so far in the Holocene is AGW.

https://tambonthongchai.com/2021/01/02/a-holocene-climate-atlas/

MarkW
Reply to  Chaamjamal
January 4, 2021 9:21 pm

Of course all studies are regional. There aren’t any global proxies.

Reply to  MarkW
January 4, 2021 10:29 pm

Yes sir. Good point. Thank you. I did mention that in my post but maybe I should highlight it.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  MarkW
January 4, 2021 11:06 pm

Of course not … contrary to almost everyone’s belief; there is no such thing as a global climate. All climates are regional and all with their own unique mix of forcing variables. Global climate change is a myth perpetuated to support the equivocation it is founded on. The entire thing is one intertwined logical fallacy.

David A
Reply to  Rory Forbes
January 5, 2021 1:05 am

Yep, adequet regional studies to make the oceans considerably higher then now. ( Oceans are reasonably global (-;

Reply to  David A
January 5, 2021 8:21 am

Not even the oceans are amphorous or homogeneous structures. There are winds, currents, hemispheres, etc. that all result in regional variations.

Richard Page
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 5, 2021 11:42 am

Amorphous- fixed it for ya!

commieBob
Reply to  Richard Page
January 5, 2021 7:49 pm

Given that the oceans lack carrying handles, they can’t really be described as amphora, so he’s right.

January 4, 2021 7:39 pm

Deleted accidental duplicate post.

January 4, 2021 8:06 pm

The warmest summers in the MWP for Northern Europe were in the late 700’s AD (Esper et al, 2014), at the same time, GISP2 indicates that Greenland was the coldest for 3450 years. The warm spike in GISP2 from close to 1000 AD was the Oort solar minimum.

What Mann is doing is biasing the global temperature cooler during the MWP in Europe because of colder ocean phases, which is in principle correct, but then falsely attributing post 1995 warmer ocean phases to rising CO2 forcing.

comment image

January 4, 2021 10:13 pm

Reconstruction of the treeline between the Taiga and the Tundra in Siberia also shows clearly the MWP. In the region into which the treeline is currently advancing northward, 1000-year-old stumps show that it’s “been there done that” before:

https://ptolemy2.wordpress.com/2020/07/09/the-to-and-fro-of-the-siberian-taiga-tundra-treeline/

January 4, 2021 10:29 pm

In this paper by Bianchi et al, take a look at figure 2. Not only deep Atlantic temperatures both in the north and the equatorial region, but also the deep flow rates at a sea floor location to measure “ISOW” – Iceland-Scotland overflow water, showing the deep flow rate of the AMOC (Atlantic Meridional overturning circulation.) This data shows continual oscillation of Atlantic temperatures at all depths over the whole Holocene. It nicely shows both in the North Atlantic and also the Sargasso sea (tropical) the LIA, the MWP, the dark ages cold and the Roman-Minoan warm periods.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200032692_Holocene_periodicity_in_North_Atlantic_climate_and_deep-ocean_flow_south_of_Iceland

So the Atlantic was much warmer in the early Holocene than now, both at the surface and at depth; both near the Arctic and in the tropics.

0D6AEDAE-A167-4F18-9424-7B008CFDCB03.jpeg
January 4, 2021 11:22 pm

More than a decade ago, I published that the conduct of the global warming alarmists was so dishonest that they must have a covert agenda. The warmists’ tactics were thuggish and repulsive – straight out of the Lenin/Goebbels/Alinsky slimebook.

The warmist Marxist agenda is now openly exposed – it is Treason!

The Big Picture:
The global warming / climate change scam, the Covid-19 full-Gulag lockdown scam, the specious linkage of these two huge frauds, and the leftists “Final Solution”, the Marxist “Great Reset”.

WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM PRESENTS: THE GREAT RESET— “YOU’LL OWN NOTHING, AND YOU’LL BE HAPPY.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zUjsEaKbkM The World Economic Forum’s twitter account deleted the tweet in which this video was originally embedded in 2016.

In a just world, these climate fraudsters would spend the rest of their lives in prison.

The following paper was published 15 years ago this month:

DRIVE-BY SHOOTINGS IN KYOTOVILLE: THE GLOBAL WARMING DEBATE HEATS UP
Allan M.R. MacRae, Energy & Environment, , vol. 16(1), pages 155-156, January 2005.
https://ideas.repec.org/a/sae/engenv/v16y2005i1p155-156.html

Excerpt]
But such bullying is not unique, as other researchers who challenged the scientific basis of Kyoto have learned.

Of particular sensitivity to the pro-Kyoto gang is the “hockey stick” temperature curve of 1000 to 2000 AD, as proposed by Michael Mann of University of Virginia and co-authors in Nature.

Mann’s hockey stick indicates that temperatures fell only slightly from 1000 to 1900 AD, after which temperatures increased sharply as a result of humanmade increases in atmospheric CO2. Mann concluded: “Our results suggest that the latter 20th century is anomalous in the context of at least the past millennium. The 1990s was the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, at moderately high levels of confidence.”

Mann’s conclusion is the cornerstone of the scientific case supporting Kyoto. However, Mann is incorrect.

Mann eliminated from the climate record both the Medieval Warm Period, a period from about 900 to 1500 AD when global temperatures were generally warmer than today, and also the Little Ice Age from about 1500 to 1800 AD, when temperatures were colder. Mann’s conclusion contradicted hundreds of previous studies on this subject, but was adopted without question by Kyoto advocates.

In the April 2003 issue of Energy and Environment, Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and co-authors wrote a review of over 250 research papers that concluded that the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age were true climatic anomalies with world-wide imprints – contradicting Mann’s hockey stick and undermining the basis of Kyoto. Soon et al were then attacked in EOS, the journal of the American Geophysical Union.
 
In the July 2003 issue of GSA Today, University of Ottawa geology professor Jan Veizer and Israeli astrophysicist Nir Shaviv concluded that temperatures over the past 500 million years correlate with changes in cosmic ray intensity as Earth moves in and out of the spiral arms of the Milky Way. The geologic record showed no correlation between atmospheric CO2 concentrations and temperatures, even though prehistoric CO2 levels were often many times today’s levels. Veizer and Shaviv also received “special attention” from EOS.

In both cases, the attacks were unprofessional – first, these critiques should have been launched in the journals that published the original papers, not in EOS. Also, the victims of these attacks were not given advanced notice, nor were they were given the opportunity to respond in the same issue. In both cases the victims had to wait months for their rebuttals to be published, while the specious attacks were circulated by the pro-Kyoto camp.
………………………….

David A
Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 5, 2021 1:10 am

Very good summary Allan!

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 6, 2021 5:35 pm

Sent to Canadian and USA media and politicians
 
Subject: THE TRUDEAU PLAN TO DESTROY CANADA

Attached is an article about the dismal future of Canada under Justin Trudeau.

I warned about this grave situation over one year ago, but the Financial Post refused to print my article (below). That is the only article of the many I have written that was refused publication by a Canadian newspaper.

Regards, Allan MacRae

EDITED SUMMARY – THE TRUDEAU PLAN TO DESTROY CANADA
October 2020
https://thecanadianreport.ca/is-this-leaked-memo-really-trudeaus-covid-plan-for-2021-you-decide/

Here is the Canadian Government Strategic Planning Committee’s checklist for Canada’s future as released in October 2020. The document has been edited, adding in some much needed separations to make it easier to read and highlight important parts.

Please note that the first half of the list has been predictive, forecasting secondary lockdowns, a surge in new cases, complete and total secondary lockdowns, and emergence of a Covid-21 mutation.

There was also an apparent failed prediction of the construction of isolation facilities, although a Rebel News article in early December thought it had found such a facility.

If this checklist continues to be predictive, the unemployment program will soon transition into the universal basic income program, hospitalizations will exceed the capacity of medical care with even more lockdowns and travel restrictions.

Although seemingly bizarre, the next three stages would appear to meet the needs of what is being called the Great Reset, the plan of the World Economic Forum to prove that capitalism is a bust and has to be replaced with … why your betters of course.

Those three stages are 1. transition to a universal basic income, 2. break down in supply chains and economic instability, and 3. deploy the military to keep the commoners common.

The rest of the article describes how they would control the public with a Canada Health Pass and the buying up of debt, the very debt that is now being forced on Canadians with outrageous growth of the deficit.

Come to think of it, this plan does begin to explain a lot. Why else would the government exaggerate the Covid alarm to dig an even deeper hole, destroying small businesses and airlines while mega companies prosper. Why would they spend so profligately even as they chop off the petroleum spigot. Why would they be so supportive of wasting vast investments on the failures of wind turbines and solar panels while ignoring gas and nuclear. One has to ask whether these policies are the magical dreams of fools or if there is a method behind the madness. Is the objective to actually impoverish Canadians, making us want to be rescued from a failed state, sign off our possessions and become the indentured servants of the elite.

_________________________________

History – I published this warning in September 2019, before Trudeau was re-elected.

Told you so – over one year ago.

Regards, Allan MacRae

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/12/canadas-trudeau-promises-massive-carbon-tax-rise/#comment-3145314

Justin Trudeau, a man of no education and no life achievements, somehow believes he suddenly has the intellect and foresight to lead his nation into the Great Reset – the Brave New World of Neo-Marxism. The Great Reset means Trudeau as absolute monarch, the Little Prince surrounded by his rich cronies, and the rest of Canadians subsisting as poor peasants living only to serve him – the old Chinese Communist model.

TRUDEAU AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER:
Video: https://twitter.com/i/status/1327657048415334400
TRUDEAU GIVES AWAY THE GAME: SAYS PANDEMIC IS OPPORTUNITY FOR “RESET”
spencerfernando.com/2020/11/15/trudeau-gives-away-the-game-says-pandemic-is-opportunity-for-reset/

Former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has assured the elites of the World Economic Forum (WEF) that a Joe Biden presidency would quickly advance the globalist “Great Reset” agenda “with greater speed and greater intensity than many might imagine.”
THE GREAT RESET: BUILDING FUTURE RESILIENCE TO GLOBAL RISKS
weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/the-great-reset-building-future-resilience-to-global-risks/

Justin Trudeau certainly did not campaign on this platform, and neither did Joe Biden. TREASON is the order of the day.

Trudeau and much of the establishment Canadian media have called the Great Reset a “conspiracy theory”, despite the clear evidence in Trudeau’s own video, cited above. Blatant lying is the leftists’ only core competence.
TRUDEAU CALLS GREAT RESET A “CONSPIRACY THEORY,” DESPITE IT BEING MENTIONED IN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS AND HIS OWN STATEMENTS
spencerfernando.com/2020/11/24/trudeau-calls-great-reset-a-conspiracy-theory-despite-it-being-mentioned-in-official-government-documents-and-his-own-statements/

When I tried to warn Canada of his covert plans before the 2019 election, Trudeau’s “bought” Canadian press refused to print my exposé of his secret Marxist plot. Trudeau bought the loyalty of the financially-strapped Canadian press with a $600 million bribe.

TOLD YOU SO, ONE YEAR AGO: Here is my warning, published more than one year ago in Fall 2019, before the Canadian election.

THE RADICAL GREEN ROAD TO VENEZUELA – POVERTY, MISERY AND DICTATORSHIP
September 20, 2019 – My original articleBy Allan M.R. MacRae, B.A.Sc., M.Eng.,
wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/20/the-radical-green-road-to-venezuela-poverty-misery-and-dictatorship/

THE LIBERALS’ COVERT GREEN PLAN FOR CANADA – POVERTY AND DICTATORSHIP
October 1, 2019 – My subsequent article, edited with a Financial Post former editor, but then not published in that paper.
wattsupwiththat.com/2019/10/01/the-liberals-covert-green-plan-for-canada-poverty-and-dictatorship/

Repeating from my previous posts:

If Biden wins, there will never be another honest election in the USA – vote-rigging will continue and it will be the end of freedom. Europe and Canada have already fallen far down that “poverty road to Venezuela”. If America falls, there will be nowhere left to run to.
__________________________________________________________________________

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 8, 2021 3:25 am

DOCTORS OPINIONS ON COVID-19 VACCINES – DON’T DO IT
Video Banned By Google Youtube and Facebook
https://www.bitchute.com/video/1CDrCMQqJukb/

HUNDREDS SENT TO EMERGENCY ROOM AFTER GETTING COVID-19 VACCINES
By Zachary Stieber January 5, 2021
https://www.theepochtimes.com/hundreds-sent-to-emergency-room-after-getting-covid-19-vaccines_3644148.html

2 DAYS AFTER RECEIVING COVID-19 SHOT, HEALTHY 41-YEAR-OLD MOTHER DIES IN PORTUGAL
By Celia Farber January 5, 2021
https://www.theepochtimes.com/two-days-after-receiving-covid-19-shot-healthy-41-year-old-mother-dies-in-portugal_3644867.html

MEDICAL EXAMINERS INVESTIGATE DEATH OF U.S. DOCTOR WHO GOT COVID-19 VACCINE
Michael Nedelman January 6, 2021
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/medical-examiners-investigate-death-of-u-s-doctor-who-got-covid-19-vaccine-1.5256887

U.S. OFFICIALS REPORT MORE SEVERE ALLERGIC REACTIONS TO COVID-19 VACCINES
By Manas Mishra, Julie Steenhuysen January 6, 2021
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-allergy-idINKBN29B2GS

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 8, 2021 3:28 am

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/28/fauci-on-moving-the-goalposts/#comment-3154029

After I published the 30Dec2020 post above, someone sent me this video.
Watch USA-trained pediatrician Dr Larry Palevsky on the risks of the Covid-19 vaccine – I like his medical assessment of the vaccine – the risk/reward is imbalanced, especially for those under 65. Not sure what to think about Dr. Northrup.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2105918079543616&id=1399710973580925&m_entstream_source=video_home&player_format=permalink&ref=watch_permalink

Published by me on 17Dec2020:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/17/gao-asks-court-to-compel-new-mexico-ag-to-stop-stonewalling-in-discovery-provide-answers-to-questions-about-work-with-activists-and-activist-ags/#comment-3148432
NURSE PASSES OUT AFTER RECEIVING COVID VACCINE
mobile.twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1339768567659683840?s=20
When it comes to getting the COVID-19 vaccine, I keep saying the same thing:
I will be the most polite guy on the planet, at the back of the line for the COVID-19 vaccine, saying “No no, you go first, I insist”.

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 9, 2021 8:33 pm

EXCLUSIVE: DID ANTIFA INFILTRATE TRUMP PROTESTORS WHO WENT INTO THE CAPITOL?

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 9, 2021 10:17 pm

Watch the first video and save it if you can, before it is struck down.

GENERAL THOMAS MCINERNEY GIVES IMPROMPTU INTERVIEW AT THE WHITE HOUSE
Jan 08 2021
https://youtu.be/2dKF8ddzPrA
 
NEW REPORTS ABOUT ELECTION MANIPULATION READ LIKE A TOM CLANCY NOVEL
November 29, 2020
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/new_reports_about_election_manipulation_read_like_a_tom_clancy_novel.html

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF BOMBSHELL INTERVIEW: GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN, GEN. THOMAS MCINERNEY WITH BRANNON HOWSE – IDENTITY OF KRAKEN REVEALED
11/30/2020 By Stillness In The Storm
https://stillnessinthestorm.com/2020/11/full-transcript-of-bombshell-interview-gen-michael-flynn-gen-thomas-mcinerney-with-brannon-howse-identity-of-kraken-revealed/

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
January 10, 2021 7:47 am

LEFT-WING ACTIVIST ENCOURAGED INTRUDERS INSIDE CAPITOL, URGED POLICE TO LEAVE POST
BY Petr Svab January 8, 2021
https://www.theepochtimes.com/self-proclaimed-revolutionary-eggs-on-capitol-intruders-as-he-records-them-publishes-video_3649617.html