Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I see that a new study has been hyped with the headline:
Earth barreling toward ‘Hothouse’ state not seen in 50 million years,epic new climate record shows
I’ll spare you a link to the miscreants in question, it’s the usual alarmism. Here’s a sample.
“Now, in a new study published today (Sept. 10) in the journal Science, researchers have analyzed the chemical elements in thousands of foram samples to build the most detailed climate record of Earth ever — and it reveals just how dire our current climate situation is.”
“Dire” … here’s their alarmist graphic, showing the temperature since dinosaurs 67 million years ago (or “67 mya” as they say, which actually means 67 million years before 1950 … go figure).

Figure 1. Lead graphic from the article.
Y’all know me, I’m a data hound. Plus I don’t like science by press release. So I got the paper, “An astronomically dated record of Earth’s climate and its predictability over the last 66 million years”. It’s paywalled in Science magazine here. To get it I used the DOI and went through SciHub, but that’s just me. Here’s the money graph from their paper.

Figure 2. ORIGINAL CAPTION: Fig. 1. Cenozoic Global Reference benthic foraminifer carbon and oxygen Isotope Dataset (CENOGRID) from ocean drilling core sites spanning the past 66 million years. Data are mostly generated by using benthic foraminifera tests of the taxa Cibicidoides and Nuttallides extracted from carbonate-rich deepsea sediments drilled during Ocean Drilling Program (ODP) and Integrated Ocean Drilling Program (IODP) expeditions. Genus-specific corrections were applied and oxygen isotope data adjusted by +0.64‰ and +0.4‰, respectively (12), with the green dot indicating the average oxygen isotope composition of the last 10 kyr.
Average resolution for the interval from 0 to 34 Ma is one sample every 2 ky; for the interval from 34 to 67 Ma, it is one sample every 4.4 kyr. After binning, data were resampled and smoothed by a locally weighted function over 20 kyr (blue curve) and 1 Myr (red curve) to accentuate the different rhythms and trends in Earth’s carbon cycle and temperature operating on various time scales.
Oxygen isotope data have been converted to average temperature differences with respect to today (13). Future projections for global temperature (44) in the year 2300 are shown by plotting three representative concentration pathways (RCP) scenarios (light blue, dark blue, and red dots). Gray horizontal bars mark rough estimates of ice volume in each hemisphere. Absolute ages for epochs and stages of the Cenozoic (GTS2012) and geomagnetic field reversals (this study) are provided for reference.
The oxygen isotope data axis is reversed to reflect warmer temperatures at times of lower d18O values. Aqu, Aquitanian; Bur, Burdigalian; Cal, Calabrian; Cha, Chattian; Cret., Cretaceous; Dan, Danian; Gel, Gelasian; Ion, Ionian; K/Pg, Cretaceous/Paleogene boundary; Lan, Langhian; Lut, Lutetian; M2, first major glacial event in the NH; Maa, Maastrichtian; Mes, Messinian; NH, Northern Hemisphere; Oi-1, the first major glacial period in the Oligocene; Pia, Piacenzian; Pleist., Pleistocene; Plio., Pliocene; Pri, Priabonian; Rup, Rupelian; Sel, Selandian; Ser, Serravallian; SH, Southern Hemisphere; Tha, Thanetian; Tor, Tortonian; Ypr, Ypresian; Zan, Zanclean.
The first thing I noticed was that their main Figure was quite different from the figure in the press release. No fan-shaped predictions of the future. Hmmm, sez I … however, the figure used in the press release is indeed in the Supplemental Information.
Next, I never believe anything without running the numbers myself. So I went and got the datasets, they’re online here. The graph above is based on dataset S34.
There’s an oddity in Figures 1 & 2 just above. The 18O dataset is shown both in its original units (left-hand y-scale) and alternate units (right-hand y-scale). These alternate units are temperature anomaly in °C. Not only that, but according to Figure 1, the relationship between original and alternate units is linear. Who knew? Is it true? I have no idea, but I’ll take their data as read and see where it leads.
What I did with their data was to digitize the 18O data in Figure 2 above, using both the original and the alternate units. That let me back-calculate their conversion formula. Then I used their formula to convert their entire 18O dataset from the original units to temperature anomaly in °C.
Now that we have 67 million years of temperature data, allow me to get side-tractored for a moment to explain my interest and objective in analyzing the CENOGRID dataset. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m a heretic, which is different from a skeptic. A skeptic mostly challenges conclusions and methods. A heretic, on the other hand, questions the underlying assumptions. Or to put it another way, a skeptic doubts parts of things. A heretic disagrees with the fundamental assumptions that the whole edifice is based on.
The assumption at the base of this whole climate edifice is that all other variables somehow magically cancel out and that at the end of the story, the temperature of the earth is determined by variations in downwelling radiation (radiation headed towards the earth’s surface). In climate science, this downwelling radiation is known by a term-of-art as “radiative forcing”. This downwelling radiation is the sum of radiation from the sun plus the thermal radiation emitted by the clouds and the atmosphere.
In simple terms, the claim is that the change in global temperature is a function of the change in global forcing. Since changes in downwelling radiation are generally most related to changes in CO2 levels, I call this the “CO2 Roolz Temperature” theory, although of course there are other greenhouse gases (GHGs). That’s the claim driving the current insane war on CO2—the hypothesis that CO2 rules temperature, and that if we can simply drive CO2 levels lower, the world will be cooler.
And that is the claim I heretically and emphatically dispute—the idea that the long-term changes in temperature are a linear function of changes in CO2 forcing.
Further, not only is the change in temperature said to be a function of the change in forcing. It is said to be a linear change, meaning that the change in temperature is equal to the change in forcing times some constant value.
This constant is called the “climate sensitivity”, meaning how sensitive the temperature is to a change in forcing. Climate sensitivity is generally represented by the Greek letter lambda (λ). It is a positive number with a hotly-disputed value estimated to be somewhere between one-half and eight … here’s the history of the estimates.

Figure 3. Estimates of ECS (equilibrium climate sensitivity). Colors indicate what type of underlying data they are based on. Horizontal dashed lines show the canonical range of “climate sensitivity”, which is 1.5 – 4.5°C / 2xCO2. The units (°C/2xCO2) are degrees of warming which are said to result from a doubling of atmospheric CO2.
Now, consider that we’ve been working on this question of the value of the “climate sensitivity” for over forty years. In that time we’ve expended hundreds of thousands of person-hours, millions of dollars, and huge amounts of computer time on the question … and during that forty years, rather than either finding or even being able to narrow down the value of one dumb number … the uncertainty about the value of “climate sensitivity” has steadily increased.
Increased! Our estimates of the “climate sensitivity” are becoming less certain rather than more certain!
During the period shown in Figure 3, entire new branches of science have sprung up, like DNA analysis and proteomics and femtosecond lasers and receptor biology, and have advanced to an unimaginable degree … and meanwhile, in climate science we’re even further from measuring the “climate sensitivity” than when we started 40 years ago.
Climate models have gone from relatively simple and running on ordinary computers, to unimaginably complex and running on supercomputers. The computers themselves have thousands of times more speed and memory than they had forty years ago. Every year we’ve put more money and more work and more computer cycles into the question … and despite that huge investment, regarding the “climate sensitivity” we’re still increasing in uncertainty even today.
And it’s even worse than the graph shows. The estimates from the latest “CMIP6” models are not shown in that graph, and their estimates of “climate sensitivity” are even wider in range.
To me, there is one and only one conclusion to draw from this obvious and hugely expensive failure—the underlying description of reality is wrong.
That’s why I put “climate sensitivity” in quotes … I don’t think it actually exists. I think it is part of an incorrect understanding of climate.
And that is my heresy—I do not think that changes in temperature are a constant “climate sensitivity” times the changes in forcing. I think the climate operates in a very different manner.
To be sure, our inability to determine the so-called “climate sensitivity” doesn’t tell us what might control the temperature … but it clearly tells us it’s not the amount of downwelling radiation.
And that means we need a new underlying description of how the climate works. I say the climate is not like an oven, where you turn up or down the GHG gases and the oven slavishly gets warmer and colder. Instead, I say it works as follows:
When something acts to drive the temperature of the planet either up or down, the climate system ACTIVELY RESPONDS to shift it back towards the status quo ante.
A good introduction to my idea of how the climate works is my post called Emergent Climate Phenomena. There is also an index of my posts on the subject here.
For the math folks in the crowd, the mathematical equation that the Earth is supposed to obey according to the generally accepted theory is
∆T = λ ∆F
where ∆ is “change in”, T is temperature, λ is climate sensitivity, and F is forcing.
I am unaware of any rigorous examination of evidence for this claim. I discuss its derivation here. It obviously is trivially true for say a block of steel.
But for complex systems like the climate or the human body, it may not be true at all. For example, if I walk out in the sun, the total forcing “F” changes by hundreds of W/m2, and despite that my core temperature “T” barely moves … what is my “climate sensitivity”? Near zero.
And if you don’t think that happens in the climate, here’s an example. CERES satellite data lets us calculate the relationship between downwelling radiation (∆F) and the surface temperature (∆T). And for most of the world, we find that indeed, they are strongly positively correlated—when forcing goes up, temperature goes up in a roughly linear fashion.
But in a large expanse of the equatorial oceans, we find that the exact opposite is happening. Temperature and forcing not only decouple, but they move in opposite directions—forcing is increasing as the temperature is decreasing, and vice versa.

Figure 4. Correlation of total surface absorption with total surface emission.
Perhaps someone can tell me … in the blue areas in the graph, where ∆T and ∆F are negatively correlated … just what is the climate sensitivity? Minus 1.5?
The widely held but incorrect idea that ∆T = λ ∆F may arise from the fact that as Figure 4 above shows, on land in the extratropics, ∆T is indeed highly positively correlated with ∆F (red areas in Figure 1), and that’s where most people live.
But the oceans and the tropics tell a different story. The average ocean correlation of forcing and temperature is only 0.44, half the average land correlation, and as mentioned, large areas are negatively correlated …
My friend Nic Lewis suggested that decoupling of forcing and temperature might be from a delay in the response. However, a cross-correlation analysis (not shown) of the area in blue above says that there’s no lag between downwelling surface radiation and the resulting heating.
This means that while forcing controls the temperature many places, in the blue areas the only conclusion possible is that the temperature is decoupled from the forcing … which kinda knocks a hole in the underlying equation that claims that forcing roolz temperature, no? …
So with that as prologue, let me return to the CENOGRID study. We’ve seen that it contains temperature information. The change in CO2 forcing varies as the logarithm of the CO2 concentration. So if we make a scatterplot of temperature versus the log of the CO2 forcing, we should get something resembling a straight line.
Fortunately, the CENOGRID study also contains a graph of the CO2 levels for the past 67 million years. It’s Figure S34 in the Supplemental Information.
Unfortunately, they didn’t put in a table or a link to the actual values. Grrr …
Fortunately, I’m a patient man, so I digitized their graph. That gave me the CO2 data I needed to compare with the geological temperatures shown in Figure 2. Remember, we’re expecting temperature versus the logarithm of CO2 to plot as a sloped straight line …
However, Figure 5 shows the actual situation with the CENOGRID temperature and CO2 data.

Figure 5. Scatterplot of temperature versus the log of carbon dioxide concentration. Blue dots are individual data points. Colored/Black lines are the million-year Loess average of both variables. Because of the long-term averaging, and because the data only go to 1950, the point marked “present” has lower temperatures and CO2 values than the actual 2020 situation.
Temperature vs. log CO2 should plot as a sloped straight line where both either go up or go down together? … I don’t think so. This kinda defines the concept of “non-linear”. And the claimed relationship between CO2 and temperature doesn’t seem to exist.
Consider, for example, the period of the first Warmhouse (orange) to the end of the Hothouse (red). During that time, the individual CO2 values (blue dots) went from ~ 260 to ~ 1200 ppmv, more than two doublings … but the temperature barely rose.
And the situation is worse in Coolhouse 1. Over the twenty million year period from 34 to 14 million years ago, the CO2 varied from about 290 to 800 ppmv, going up and down repeatedly within that range.
But over that twenty million years, the temperature basically didn’t vary much at all!.
In fact, that seems to be the general case. Each of the periods that they identify in their paper, from Hothouse down to Icehouse, contains times lasting millions of years when CO2 goes up and down, doubling and halving, but the temperature only varies minimally. Look at Figure 1.
Now, I thought that the hype was all in the press release. However, the authors themselves say:
If CO2 emissions continue unmitigated until 2100, as assumed for the RCP8.5 scenario, Earth’s climate system will be moved abruptly from the Icehouse into the Warmhouse or even Hothouse climate state.
The climate “will be moved abruptly” … be afraid. Be very afraid …
First off, the RCP8.5 scenario is the hyper-alarmist scenario. It shouldn’t be used. But more to the point, even if these are separate stable climate states, where is the evidence that CO2 levels are driving the shift between the states?
Because according to their own data, the shifts between the states don’t generally occur at the extreme CO2 values during that climate state. And in fact, the shift from Coolhouse 2 to Icehouse occurred at a higher CO2 level than the shift from Coolhouse 1 to the colder Coolhouse 2.
Next, suppose our CO2 were to go up to 700 ppmv … unlikely, but possible. In Figure 5, 700 ppmv of CO2 corresponds to three past temperatures— 5°, 10°, and 14° warmer than their “present” (average of last 10,000 years).
So which of their hothouses are they saying that we would end up in?
In short, I see absolutely nothing in their analysis to support their alarmist statement which is driving the media hype.
I must say, when I started out to look at this CENOGRID dataset, I did not expect to find persuasive evidence that CO2 is not the secret temperature knob controlling the temperature. But that is the clear conclusion from the CENOGRID study … nor is this a surprise in the larger sense.
I ask you … in what other complex physical flow system far from equilibrium is some typical steady-state parameter a simple function of only one of dozens of input and other variables? It makes no sense that all other variables would average out and only CO2 would make a difference to the global temperature.
TL;DR version?
The CENOGRID data says that changing atmospheric CO2 levels do not cause global temperature changes.
… or for the mathletes …
∆T ≠ λ ∆F
It’s night here on our patch of hill, six miles (10 km) from the Pacific Ocean and an hour and a half north of San Francisco. I just went outside, and it took my breath away. For the first time in a couple of weeks, I could see the stars.
The smoke here from the West Coast fires has been of various thicknesses and altitudes, but constant. One day last week it was so thick we had room lights on all day. When darkness came that night, not one of the solar path lamps had enough power to come on.
This recent week, the smoke has been up at a higher altitude. It’s been blown out over the ocean up by Oregon. From there it went out to sea and then circled back in. It has been riding on top of the “marine layer” as it’s been coming back into the coast here.
The California coast is funny. There’s a bone-cold deep-sea current that strikes the coast and upwells in a strip along the whole north coast that’s maybe 30 to 60 miles wide (50-100 km) from the shore outwards.
And there’s generally a warm moist wind that blows over the land from the warm blue north Pacific Ocean. But when the wind hits that strip of cold green water along the coast, the lowest layer of air cools way down. Being cold, it’s heavy. So when it hits the land it tends to hug the surface. And if the temperature is cool enough, the moist wind turns to fog.
This ground-level layer of cold air and fog is called the “marine layer”. It’s generally on the order of half-mile to a mile (a couple km) thick. And the Oregon smoke coming back in off the ocean is up above the marine layer here.
This has kept the worst of the smoke off of us, but the combination of smoke and fog has blocked the sun, moon, and most of all the stars for far too long.
So when I looked up tonight expecting gray, and I saw instead the Milky Way coruscating across the black velvet sky and Mars sitting on the celestial equator, I was lost in wonder at the stupendous glory of our magnificent eternity.
And I thought, “Indeed, the earth abides,” and my heart was eased.
My best regards to all, if you’re ordering the bat soup tell them to go easy on the bats, stay well,
w.
PS—As usual, I ask that when you comment, you quote the exact words that you are discussing. This avoids misunderstanding as to what and even who you are talking about.
Ok interesting.
So we learn that not for every epoch Co2 is linked to temperature due to different unknown aspects.
However your conclusion that this also holds up for our current time is a false logic you are applying.
We thus have to look only to this epoch to draw conclusions what lies ahead of us.
See for example the data for this epoch and undeniable correlation between Co2 and temperature.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-warming/temperature-change
Oh surpise! A clear correlation!
“A clear correlation..”
Suggest you consult Tony Heller’s examination of NOAA\NASA corruption of the global and USA temperature records at realclimatescience.com ,and\or UAH satellite data.(Sorry my machine won’t let me give url)
Yours, your “clear correlation” is true … but not the way you think.
When the oceans warm up after each glaciation, CO2 bubbles out just like when your Coca-Cola warms up.
When the oceans cool down during the glaciation, CO2 is absorbed back into the water.
So this is an example where the temperature is controlling the amount of CO2 in the air, and NOT an example of CO2 controlling temperature as you and the alarmists claim.
Close examination of the data you provided shows that the CO2 rise occurs AFTER the temperature rise, not before.
w.
Dear Willis,
If your Cola-reasoning would hold up, it would also hold up for the other epochs you were describing earlier and using as an example against the science.
There we see the Cola effect is not taking place, … Why not?
Kind regards,
Yours
Why not? Because the temperature is not changing except during the regime shifts, and they are not all that large.
w.
“Because the temperature is not changing except during the regime shifts, and they are not all that large.”
I think you are referring to a part of the data and again taking conclusions for other epochs.
However: Coolhouse 2, Figure 5 for example is already showing a temperature increase of 5 degrees, while the CO2 concentration is decreasing. Your statement can thus not be generalized.
The bottomline of the discussion here is in my opinion that the climate system is much more complex than the simple generalization that we are trying to make here; as demonstrated by you and many others.
Therefore running evermore complex models which show us more accurate results do make sense and show us the true effect of CO2 on the world heating.
Furthermore, we are also discussing here timescales of millions of years, where world climate systems have time to adapt.
The CO2 increase during the anthropocene is in that sense much faster and much more disruptive than previously seen before.
Yours
“The CO2 increase during the anthropocene is in that sense much faster and much more disruptive than previously seen before.”
In the past the CO2 increase was because it came from the oceans slowly as they warmed and lagged the temperature increase as a result. Clearly the warming was due to “another” cause. Today the CO2 increase is fast because we’re putting it there ourselves. The oceans would have put it there too, over time.
That still doesn’t make today’s CO2 increase causitive to catastrophic warming.
“There we see the Cola effect is not taking place, … Why not?”
Because once the CO2 has left the oceans it can be kept out by locking it up on the land. Hence when life thrives, the global CO2 levels can remain high and continue to increase despite static temperatures. But when life declines on large scales, that CO2 cant be kept out of the oceans and will again be sequestered.
The biosphere is much too complex to be driven by any single internal factor.
Yours says:
“Oh surpise! A clear correlation!”
But with a lag of about 800 years in the wrong direction for your trite “correlation”.
Temperature leads CO2 in the NOAA plot you show. Just hard to see at the scale shown, but a cross-correlation shows it averages about 800 years. Al Gore pulled the same trick in “An Inconvenient Truth”.
The same correlation is also found with other trace gases like N2O, xenon, and methane, From the ice-core record, temperatures (from oxygen isotope ratios) ALWAYS change before gas concentrations with a lag of about 800 years. .
The central pillar of the CAGW hypothesis is thus falsified.
Willis, no one can resolve climate sensitivity because averages temperature is a linear function of temperature while radiation is a 4th power function of temperature.
As a result, an infinite number of different global average temperatures yield the exact same outgoing radiation, depending upon the global variance in temperature.
As a corollary, one single global average temperature yields an infinite number of outgoing radiations, again depending upon variance.
For example, consider 2 planets with a hot and cold side, with an average temp of 3K.
Planet A. Hot = 4, cold = 2
Radiation proportional to (4^4+2^4)/2 = 136
Planet B. Hot = 5, cold = 1
Radiation proportional to (5^4+1^4)/2 = 313
2 planets, exact same average temperature, totally different radiation budgets.
so earths temperature difference day and night has shrunk does this account for the temperature rise then
Ferdberple,
+1.
This is why the “global average temperature” is so meaningless. If you truly want to calculate radiation values you need to do an integral of the temperature envelope over the surface of the globe. A truly huge amount of data to be integrated. Trying to use average temperature as a proxy is just pouring computer time down a rat hole.
Willis, I have to agree with Joe Campbell: “Your figure 5 is extraordinary!” I would think that figure alone should, at a minimum, force a reexamination of their conclusions and, more likely, a retraction of the paper. I don’t see how the Climate Change crowd can permit the paper to stand when the data (re your Fig. 5) destroys the foundational hypothesis of their theory of “Global Warming”.
” I don’t see how the Climate Change crowd can permit the paper to stand when the data (re your Fig. 5) destroys the foundational hypothesis of their theory of “Global Warming”.”
Because it’s a convenient untruth?
Because outgoing radiation depends upon temperature variance as shown in my above posting, it could be that the change in average temperature over the past century is simply due to a change in variance, with no underlying change in the radiation budget.
This brings up the possibility that temperature change is not due to a change in external forcing. It may simply reflect changes in ocean and atmospheric currents, modifying the temperature variance between the equator and the poles.
+1
I went to the PANGAEA site looking for the basis of your Figure 5 but was unable to find anything related to temperature or CO2 concentrations. The site was a source for logged data points of benthic foraminifera, but that’s all I could find. Please advise. Thanks.
That’s the site. Dataset S34 is the file containing the benthic 13C and 18O data.
I digitized their 18O data using both units (‰ and °C) and back-calculated their formula for converting raw benthic 18O data to temperature. Then I converted their 18O data to °C of temperature anomaly.
And as described in the head post, I digitized their CO2 data, couldn’t find it anywhere among their datasets.
Then I combined the two to make Figure 5.
Hope this is of assistance to you. Questions? Askem …
w.
Graet story WIllis
But today’s CO2 is 412 , not 200 as shown in Fig 5 – or have I missed something?
Note that the first figure, which extrapolates future temperatures, does so under the rubric of the unapproved “Anthropocene” age. That says a lot about the objectivity of the author and her graduate research.
∆T ≠ λ ∆F
========
This equation is mostly incorrect because it assumes that you can take a simple average of delta T or delta F.
The problem is that
((T1+T2)^4)/2 not equal ((T1^4)+(T2^4))/2
So when you grid the earths temperature and average and homogenize and then try and balance the 4th power energy budget, you get a totally different answer if you early average vs late average.
Ferd, the common assumption in the field is that over the short distance of the variation in averages, there is very little difference between a T^4 and a linear variation.
Let me put some numbers on that. Earth average temperature is on the order of 15°C. Suppose it varies from 14°C to 16°C … what is the difference between straight-line and T^4 average temperature?
I use the computer language “R” for my work. I’ve written a couple of complementary functions, “rtoc” to convert radiation (r) to °C, and “ctor” that does the reverse. So … here’s the calculation:
As you can see, the T^4 and straight-line estimates only differ by five thousandths of one degree … which is why the linear approximation is used. Even with larger differences the error is small. Here’s the average of 12°C and 18°C, far outside the range of variation of the global average temperature …
There are huge problems with the idea of “climate sensitivity”, but your “T^4 problem” is not one of them.
Regards,
w.
Hi Willis
We are talking about two different things. You are talking about the 1C change in temp over a century which I agree is near linear.
What I am talking about is the much larger variance in T that occurs day to day and year to year and how this affects the radiation balance.
If you are able to send me contact information I will write up the details and send them to you. I would appreciate your review. The details are beyond a blog post.
Mods, you have my permission to give Willis my email address. Thanks.
Ferd, email sent.
w.
Ferd,
I think you are headed down the right path.
So Ferd – do longer term temperature changes in climate emerge from fractal diurnal-annual temperature variation, somewhat as profits or losses emerge from playing the stock market?
A person with one watch will always know what the time is.
A person with two watches is never quite sure . . .
Was I the last person to know that Nuttela deposits accurately track prehistoric temperatures? Oh, wait.
I detect malfeasance in the splicing in Figure 1. The Holocene Optimum is showing as being warmer than any interglacial of the last million years, and the present is showing as warm as the Holocene Optimum. As for the nest 300 years, there will be the biggest super solar minima for 3500 years.
“When something acts to drive the temperature of the planet either up or down, the climate system ACTIVELY RESPONDS to shift it back towards the status quo ante.”
I really don’t know if there is a “status quo” but I certainly agree that there is some RANGE of temperature that the interacting systems of climate seems to prefer. The further one pushes climate from this range, the more actively the systems in total seem to resist.
The real question seems to me whether if life in total (biological life) does better at warmer or cooler temperatures. I think a more moderate Earth (which alarmists call warmer) is more favorable to life – more species and mass.
If current climate change is mostly natural, then should humans be trying to adjust it because they do not want to have to adapt? That seems like a really selfish viewpoint. Humans after all are very good at adaptation.
Well, I think the simple answer is that in 67 million year, Earth surface changed.
A simple element was the Antarctica was not centered at the south pole 60 million years ago.
Our current world is icehouse climate. Though I like the term icebox, as in another word for refrigerator. I could make plainer by saying a climate which is refrigerated, a refrigerator climate. But icebox climate is seems clear enough to me.
So we in Ice Age, and Ice Age ocean temperature goes from 1 to 5 C.
Something prevents it getting colder then 1 C, and something stops it from getting warmer than 5 C. I tend to think Canada stops it from getting warmer than 5 C. And ice shelves stop it from getting colder than 1 C.
And to really annoy, Willis Eschenbach, I think ocean geothermal heat is factor.
Your definition of heresy is not standard.
A heretic is somebody who has beliefs against the dogma of the religion he claims to belong. Someone who has strayed too far away from orthodoxy and persists in his heresy even after being explained.
So while a skeptic claims there is insufficient evidence to support a hypothesis, he does not have to propose a different one. A heretic must support a different hypothesis to the orthodox one. A heretic is skeptic of other hypotheses but not of his hypothesis, so it is not a true skeptic.
A skeptic will not believe there is sufficient evidence to say CO2 is the main cause of climate change.
A heretic will say something else different from CO2 is the main cause of climate change. There are different climate heresies, like those that believe it is the sun, others believe it is the clouds, or geothermal energy.
Somebody that doesn’t believe the climate is changing is not even a heretic. You must claim to belong to the religion and disagree with the dogma to be a heretic. Those not believing in climate change are just pagans.
Javier September 15, 2020 at 4:23 pm
Bro’, not one damn thing about my entire life is standard …
w.
You’re not REALLY going to object to someone else using non-standard (assuming I grant your premise) definitions of concepts are you?
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/09/09/part-of-the-heat-is-coming-from-beneath-our-feet/#comment-3080038
Let’s please not start with THAT again!
Rich:
Hey thanks for chiming in Rich, but I didn’t start it in the first place did I? Or maybe you didn’t read the other thread?
I think if someone is going to start criticizing yet another poster for nonconformity to a terminology standard, then he ought to answer for what appears to be his own hypocrisy.
Not my problem if you fail to understand that scientific skepticism is something different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptical_movement#Scientific_skepticism
It is not believing in something for which there is no evidence.
My definition conforms to what Wikipedia says about scientific skepticism. It is therefore not my own definition.
I’m with you, that’s not your problem at all. Rather, your problem is you started out quoting Cambridge’s definition of skepticism and then later modified the argument to Wiki’s “scientific skepticism” when the Cambridge definition didn’t go well for you.
Oopsie, can you say, “I’ll have the Special Pleading logical fallacy for game over Alex”?
Argument 1 (against Bob):
“Just goes to show you don’t understand what a skeptic is either.
Skeptic
a person who doubts the truth or value of an idea or belief
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/skeptic”
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/09/09/part-of-the-heat-is-coming-from-beneath-our-feet/#comment-3079967
Then all along the way you tried (and failed) to maintain Argument 1 until you finally got the fact that such wasn’t going to work out for you, so you jumped to:
Argument 2 (after an intellectual bruising):
“What you and the author of the blog don’t get is that scientific skepticism is not a language issue or a logic (philosophical) issue, it is a science issue:”
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/09/09/part-of-the-heat-is-coming-from-beneath-our-feet/#comment-3080289
Whoops. Doh. We gotta move the goalposts, and quick-like cuz we’re looking really really bad!
Now none of this would’ve been that big of a deal and I would’ve never said anything, but you sure made commieBob out to be a moron when it was you who was the moron all along. I thought that was a little rude. And ‘ole Bob seems like a really nice guy to me so it rubbed me the wrong way. I’ve never seen him be mean or rude to any poster. Even in the face of your stupid he was nice to you about it. I think you owe Bob an apology myself, but hey that’s just me.
But then after all of that and to top everything off, did you learn your lesson? Why no! Here you are criticizing Willis Eschenbach for doing exactly that which you do, surely making yourself Cambridge’s new example citation under their definition of hypocrisy.
So anyway, I just thought I’d troll you for a while on your addlepate, since I enjoy tossing rude, cocksure, fake phrenic types like yourself about the intellectual room like rag dolls, and then watching you publicly squirm under the weight of your own weird, numb-nutty logic. It’s a blast!
🙂
You’re pathetic. Not only you still don’t understand what a scientific skeptic is, but your attempts to troll me fail miserably. I couldn’t care less about you.
I haven’t made my definition of anything. It is not my fault if you and Bob think that extraterrestrial visitors could exist is being a skeptic. I haven’t made my definition of heretic either. Willis did.
And if you have a problem with this, it is still your problem. Asking for an apology after throwing a volley of insults my way is hilarious. But hey, you are the one that has to live with yourself all your life. I pity you. I can and will ignore you as you are not worth my time.
Can’t disagree with you there. After all, I did allow the ilks of thee to get my dander up didn’t I? Guess nobody’s perfect.
Hey before you go, wipe the spittle off yer chin and change yer shirt would ya? I wouldn’t want anyone to see you all wet like that.
This is what I was talking about. More time wasted arguing about whether words can have more than one meaning or have a canonical and permanent meaning.
As I posted on the original waste of time, I’m with Commie Bob. Skepticism has been understood by some (like Javier) to be akin to a term of art, with a fixed definition, while most native speakers perceive the word to imply doubt. Hate to inform y’all, but both are valid and English is a mess.
Why don’t we table it? Oops, now it will depend on whether you use ‘Murcan or British as to what that means, but I remain confident that this example also won’t break through any hard skulls.
Rich:
Thanks for taking the time to waste your time lo these three times to once again comment on what a waste of time it is/was to comment on the subject matter of this and the other thread that originally wasted your time when you, for reasons known only to you, chose to purposely waste your time commenting upon what a shame it was to waste one’s time commenting on that subject matter the first time.
You are THE man and I want you to know how much I appreciate YOU and your sacrifice!
I would note that this 3rd comment of yours is now some 2.5 days after the last comment made in this particular comment thread, thus your request to “table it?” seems to have been granted before you even requested it. In case you missed that . . .
Anyway, while it certainly must be true that under normal circumstances time wasting pronouncements such as yours in a public forum would cause the thinking man to cock his head to one side, raise his eyebrows and ponder how another man could, with such force (and comedy) contradict himself under the guise of an intellectual discussion regarding the (non)evolution of the meaning of English words, thereby missing the entire point of the whole exercise which, by the way, was stated outright within the text itself in no more clearer terms than anyone could ever hope to use, well . . . no matter, we’ll just ignore that. I’m sure your genius is just being missed by my inability to understand the meaning of your words, for it simply isn’t possible you could actually be as thick as all that!
Should you deem me worthy (and surely I’m not), I’ll be waiting patiently for that erudite exposition of just what you may’ve been thinking all this time you’ve wasted your time by commenting on the subject matter that is, after all, by your own admission a waste of your time. Please keep it simple so I might have a chance to understand.
That is, of course, unless you’d rather not contradict yourself again by untabling the subject.
Once again, ‘preciate ya budrow!
Ah but sys, maybe I was using the British understanding of tabling.
If I may observe (in my very stable genius way), you seem to be missing my point that such arguments as you and Javier have been pursuing are a waste and diversion from meaningful discussion. But the meta-discussion that I am raising is paradoxically not a waste of time at all, since it raises a relevant point about a general class of ridiculously frivolous and emotion-charged brouhahas and kerfuffles that erupt like herpes cold sores from time to time, your nonsense being just one instantiation of the fatuous class.
Don’t take offense, I’m just amused by it, and playing with you.
Oh stop, Rich. No reasonable individual would believe you were using the British definition of tabling now would they? Look at ya wastin’ time with such nonsense! And here you are criticizing me for it. Shame on your hypocrisy. 🙂
Why heck no budrow, I like to play and I know my toys when I see ’em!
So surely you don’t really believe I missed your point re: time wasting with Javier do you? I mean, I pretty much just said that in the comment above this last one of yours. No worries there guy, I get ya. I just don’t believe ya.
As to discussions ABOUT discussions – well that’s a much more interesting topic, thanks! You keep on like yer doin’ and you just might get to hang around in the toybox for a bit.
Here’s the thing about paradoxes. Pretty much the standard definition of a paradox (feel free to make up your own :-)) is that a paradox needs to be comprised of sound or at least seemingly sound premises. But gosh darnit, the main premise of yours is neither.
I mean, behind the whole idea of raising “a relevant point about a general class of ridiculously frivolous and emotion-charged brouhahas . . . ” is the presupposition that Rich Davis is the authoritative adjudicating arbiter of that which is meaningingful. That seems awfully arrogant.
Since I can confirm from objectively verifiable empirical experience (because I experienced it) that tossing another arrogant, rude arse like Javier was being about the intellectual room is one of my fav things to do of all the things that I really enjoying doing, then it necessarily follows from both empirical and a priori evidence your premise is false. As Your Stable-Genius is surely aware, you can’t have a sound argument without all your premises being true can you?
And then on top of all of this, you went and employed yet another propositional fallacy for a hat trick of reasons why I should reject everything you’ve just said:
https://tinyurl.com/s96tj9z
So, unless you can prove how Rich Davis is the “authoritative adjudicating arbiter of that which is meaningingful,” for any given human in the “Discussions” logical domain, I think you’ve been tossed like salad.
What say you?
Even very stable geniuses get bored after a while sys. And now it’s been a while.
I think I know just what you mean, Rich.
Drop back by anytime!
–So while a skeptic claims there is insufficient evidence to support a hypothesis, he does not have to propose a different one. A heretic must support a different hypothesis to the orthodox one.==
That greenhouse gases cause 33 K is wrong.
But there is heretic who supposed to a believer, and thinks CO2 causes the 33 K of warming.
I never met anything who thinks greenhouse gases cause 33 K of warming and no other factor causes warming. I don’t one can actually be heretic because no one believe the theory is correct. Or I think one needs someone to believes the gospel of the faith to get any heretics. The only unity is CO2 is bad and is going to kill everyone- but most of these people know that are living in Ice Age. So probably a universal chant rather having much believe in it. I think global warming a talking point of believers of Marxism. And goes like this, have to do something about CO2 and need a world government to do anything about, but once get world government, of course world government won’t do anything about CO2 cause we living a friggin Ice Age.
I want all Marxists to go to hell as quickly as possible. Or I want force them all to live in a commune. And they have beg for at least ten years before they can get permission to leave it.
Willis,
Rather nice work of yours, again.
A few days ago on WUWT I had a short essay asking for equations about the changes in properties per 1 deg C change in surface air temperature. Number 2 on this Dirty Dozen list was the effect of a 1 deg C change on the number of ppm of CO2 in the air.
Your fig 5 scatterplot shows one view of this relationship and the impossibility of assuming it to be linear. This was the reason I listed this Dirty Dozen, to show how little we know about real temperature effects on global climate factors and how misleading many pop-science assumptions are.
Thank you Willis. One climate factor out of 12 has an answer, 11 to go. Geoff S
Willis co2 levels in 1950 were about 310 ppm not 200 ppm. At least that’s what they claim in searches. Just asking.
Neville, from the head post:
The 1950 data is one of the many blue dots somewhere around 300 ppmv and 0°C.
w.
I know Willis totally disagrees with the findings of Nikolov and Zeller, I don’t know his opinion about the work of Connolly & Connolly regarding the physics of the atmosphere but in my opinion their concepts are not disagreeing with each other at all, they are more complementing each other about how the climate is set to a relatively fixed equilibrium which is defined by solar forcing, heat latency and convection.
In line with that is that the temperature amplitude between day and night as well as poles vs equator is antiproportional to the atmospheric mass and pressure of each rocky planetoid in the solar system. Nearly nonexistent for Venus, very high for the Moon, less so for Mars etc.
In case of Earth the effect of the atmosphere is in addition modulated through the heat capacity of the oceans and cooling through evaporation where also maximum ocean temperature in the tropics is set by atmospheric pressure.
As long as solar forcing, the oceans or the atmosphere change significantly the climate will not change more than since the glacial either upwards or downwards. Which is still enough for major changes for human life (little ice age) but nothing in the ballpark of a hothouse.
Ron, give me the elevator speech about the work of Connolly and Connolly. I tried a couple times to read their stuff. I quit when I get to something like this:
Whenever anyone makes sweeping, unqualified claims like that, my bullshit detector starts ringing so loud it drowns out everything else …
Here’s from their paper:
Sorry, not buying it.
w.
I would suggest to ignore the phrasing and look at the data. This more recent presentation might be worth a look (~30 min starts the crunch):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfRBr7PEawY
Particularly the discrepancy between textbook and real world data. They might be onto something.
Cause the hight of the troposphere is changing with temperature, day/night, season. The lapse rate in addition with altitude. The stratosphere changes are inversely correlated to the troposphere changes. Which is very interesting. Like a cooling of the troposphere leads to shrinking, the stratosphere follows and compresses thereby heating itself. If the troposphere expands the stratosphere is elevated and cools by lapse rate and just r3 decompression. Don’t have any opinion about their aggregate state of ozone claim.
The consequence of this data would be that the atmosphere is mainly coupled through conduction, convection and kinetic energy transfer (they call it perfection) and not radiation rendering CO2 insignificant for the temperature equilibrium.
Willis
Both albedo and ocean circulation are important climate “ control knobs”
The creation of the Himalayas about 20 to 30 million years ago and the creation of the Panama isthmus about 1 to 3 million years ago sort of make looking at CO 2 levels 65 million years ago redundant.
IMO there are enough Milankovitch cycles in the last 1 million years which to argue that only the last 1 million years is relevant to the CAGW discussion.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Waza September 15, 2020 at 8:54 pm
What Figure 5 shows is that in each of the semi-stable climate states in the geological record, regardless of the configuration of continents and oceans, CO2 levels had no significant effect on the temperature.
How on earth is that not relevant to the current discussion?
w.
Thanks for highlighting your position.
“… in each of the semi-stable climate states in the geological record, regardless of the configuration of continents and oceans, CO2 levels had no significant effect on the temperature.”
No-one claims there is only one control knob for the climate. The control climate panel has many dials and switches. One of those many dials is the “Rapidity’ control, which has its own consequences and could induce its own state-changes given the right conditions. Today, CO2 rises with ‘Rapidity’ turned up to max. That combo is very unlikely to have happened anytime in the data set you analysed, so I don’t think you can rely solely on past performance to conclude: “no significant effect”. When rapidity is so high, it is quite possible a CO2 pulse with its very, very long tail – thousands of years – can be of long-lasting signifiacant and can start flipping other control switches; for example turning Arctic sea-ice and its associated albedo off. Rapidity throws a very big cat amongst the pidgeons which I don’t think can be ignored, given that there is no re-capturing the cat.
“No significant effect” is a truly courageous prediction, good luck.
How do you have any notion of past ‘rapidity’ when almost all the data available smears/averages the data to 1 thousand year averages? I am not saying your point is irrelevant. I asking if you have any data, from the deep past, that has any ‘rapidity’ info that would help evaluate what you note. It seems to me the only part of the co2 record with any relevant ‘rapidity’ resolution is a tiny fraction of the data, all of it so recent as to make evaluating your claim impossible.
The linked study shows today’s emissions are 10 times the rate at the time of the PETM
From the abstract”
We calculate that the initial carbon release during the onset of the PETM occurred over at least 4,000 years. This constrains the maximum sustained PETM carbon release rate to less than 1.1 Pg C yr−1. We conclude that, given currently available records, the present anthropogenic carbon release rate is unprecedented during the past 66 million years. We suggest that such a ‘no-analogue’ state represents a fundamental challenge in constraining future climate projections. Also, future ecosystem disruptions are likely to exceed the relatively limited extinctions observed at the PETM.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo2681
Loydo September 16, 2020 at 10:31 pm
Actually, CO2 is called the principal “control knob” for the climate by many people, including NASA:
And Science magazine …
As to the “rapidity”, in the study the samples are interpolated to every 2000 years … just how much “rapidity” are you expecting to find with one sample every 2,000 years?.
w.
From Svensmark’s theory of cosmic rays, Hothouse and Coolhouse happen when the solar system as it goes around the galaxy goes in and out of the spiral arms and experiences much different cosmic ray fluxes. Cosmic rays penetrate the earth’s atmosphere and nucleate cloud formation which reflects sunlight and cools the earth.
Paul, I’ve looked at both cloud data and rainfall data, and I haven’t been able to come up with one scrap of evidence to back up Svensmark’s theory.
That’s what I found when I looked. Nothing. If you have actual evidence that cosmic rays affect surface weather, now would be the time to bust it out …
w.
Might be worth to consider greater lag phases because of the oceans:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330818342_Influence_of_solar_activity_changes_on_European_rainfall
How do you have any notion of past ‘rapidity’ when almost all the data available smears/averages the data to 1 thousand year averages? I am not saying your point is irrelevant. I asking if you have any data, from the deep past, that has any ‘rapidity’ info that would help evaluate what you note. It seems to me the only part of the co2 record with any relevant ‘rapidity’ resolution is a tiny fraction of the data, all of it so recent as to make evaluating your claim impossible.
Great piece of data gathering, Willis.
The phase shifts every few million years are intriguing. Its as if something happens and a keyhole appears and the global temps drop as the climate moves through to a new state similar to orbital mechanics where a body find a Hohmann transfer.
“Average resolution for the interval from 0 to 34 Ma is one sample every 2 ky; for the interval from 34 to 67 Ma, it is one sample every 4.4 kyr. After binning, data were resampled and smoothed by a locally weighted function over 20 kyr (blue curve) and 1 Myr (red curve) to accentuate the different rhythms and trends in Earth’s carbon cycle and temperature operating on various time scales. ”
Wow. So if I’m reading that right, their proxy data wouldn’t even show changes during the whole of human civilization.
Huh? As your quote says, the resolution of the proxy data is every 2,000 years. How is that not showing changes “during the whole of human civilization”?
w.
“Temperature vs. log CO2 should plot as a sloped straight line where both either go up or go down together”
Nope.
You have to remove other forcings first.
Steve, the endless claim is that if we can control the emission of CO2 we can control the temperature. That’s at the root of the endless war on CO2. The implicit assumption in that claim is that other forcings either average out or are too small to include …
Next, and more to the point, if the reason the CO2 hasn’t caused temperature variations in say the 20 million years of Coolhouse 1 is actually “other forcings”, just what forcings are you claiming have acted in such a way as to exactly counteract the effects of CO2 over that whole time? The CO2 has gone up and down constantly … so what is counteracting it?
w.
This will help you
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14845
Sorry, Steve, no help at all. They say:
“The following equation relates this change in TSI relative to today to radiative forcing (ΔFsol) assuming a constant planetary albedo (A) through time”.
Why on earth would anyone assume that the planetary albedo is constant through time? It changes on a daily, monthly, and annual basis … but not on longer time periods? They’re way off into the region of “assume a spherical cow”.
Best regards, stay well,
w.
Steven,
“The global mean surface temperature change (ΔT, in K) for a given change in radiative forcing (ΔF, in Wm−2) can be described by:”
How do you calculate a mean surface temperature change? The term “mean” implies some kind of an average. Exactly what temperature profile went into calculating that mean surface temperature change? What was the minimum temperature? What was the maximum temperature? Since the radiation is based on T^^4 how does an average temperature mean anything. You get more radiation at the maximum temp than you do at the minimum temp. They are related by the fourth power. An algebraic average being used covers this inequality up, it hides it.
I was not there to see it but some 50M years ago Drakes Passage began to form. Over the next 20M years the Southern Ocean current formed. The transferred energy from the big solar panel, otherwise known as the Pacific to the modest radiator, otherwise known as the Atlantic Ocean.
The consequence was a net cooling of the planet as ice began to form in Antarctica top the south of the Pacific Ocean.
The amount and distribution of water over Earth’s surface dominates the collection, transfer and release of energy that drives the climate to produce the meaningless number – Global Surface Temperature.
Oceans do not get warmer than 303K if they have sea ice at one extremity due to the high evaporation rate in the tropics and cloud formation that reduces solar input. Oceans do not get colder than 271K because the form sea ice that insulates them thereby dramatically reducing rate of heat loss. So the temperature of the oceans is controlled to a very narrow range between 303K in the tropics and 271K at the sea ice interface.
Clouds provide a strong net cooling:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNg0IRyDIi8vnTC1Gt
Reduction in OLR due to clouds is only half of the energy reflected by clouds:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNg0bl2B46ioIcDZ1C
Before Drakes Passage opened the Pacific Ocean did not cool enough to form sea ice in the southern latitudes so its average temperature was higher than now.
As water vapour increases due to rising temperature, the OLR also increases so there is additional cooling beyond just cloud formation:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNg1ITK3Yk3q3yhL3_
–I say the climate is not like an oven, where you turn up or down the GHG gases and the oven slavishly gets warmer and colder. Instead, I say it works as follows:
When something acts to drive the temperature of the planet either up or down, the climate system ACTIVELY RESPONDS to shift it back towards the status quo ante.–
What do mean by drive the temperature of the planet either up or down?
I assume you mean surface air temperature. And driving the temperature up, would be mostly warming in polar regions. Though some think Antarctica doesn’t warm, so larger amount warming in the Arctic region {and near this region}.
So Canada has currently an average surface air temperature of about -3.5 C:
http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/regions/canada
was -4.5 C around 1940 and dropped to – 5 C around 1970, and has rising since.
Though each year bouncing wildly up and down by 1 or 2 C.
So if talking yearly it could be what meant by “ACTIVELY RESPONDS”.
I see weather, and “to drive the temperature of the planet” I think one needs warmer ocean.
As warmer ocean doesn’t do much with tropics but effect colder surface water nearer the poles. And we had about 8″ of sea level rise and about 2″ of it is due to increasing the temperature of the ocean, and that average temperature is about 3.5 C.
Anyhow if ocean warms and causes average ocean surface temperate warm near arctic such warmer ocean surface will cause more weather involving snowfall. And more northern Canada even warms is cold enough to have glacials. Or very cold winter could inhibit snowfall, and warmer one could cause more winter snowfall. And more snowfall will increase the air temperature, but snow doesn’t all melt, then it more of cooling effect. So that aspect would be something that is “shifting it back towards the status quo ante”.
Another thing regarding drive the temperature of the planet either up or down, could related to El Nino. It doesn’t seem to me, anyone predict them, but strong El Nino certainly increase global temperatures.
“climate system ACTIVELY RESPONDS to shift it back towards the status quo ante.”
Isn’t this the Gaia theory?
Regards.
Nope. More to do with the Constructal Law.
w.
Willis
Construct an law by Bejan seems to have something in common with Noether’s Law which in turn derives from the principle of least action. (And Fermat’s theorem.) Here’s part of a recent discussion with Pat Frank:
Noether’s theorem is important here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem
Her theorem is about physical systems having their own conservation laws. It is connected with the “principle of least action” which states that any system perturbed by a changing parameter will respond to this alteration by changing its overall state as little as possible.
Quoting the wiki on Noether:
All fine technical points aside, Noether’s theorem can be stated informally
If a system has a continuous symmetry property, then there are corresponding quantities whose values are conserved in time.[4]
A more sophisticated version of the theorem involving fields states that:
To every differentiable symmetry generated by local actions there corresponds a conserved current.
The “conserved current” is an important part of Noether’s theorem. I suspect that it applies to atmospheric thermodynamics, such that the flow of heat into and out of the atmosphere from space is the conserved current. Therefore changing CO2 will result in minimum system rearrangement with no change to the overall in-out flow of solar heat energy, which is the conserved current.
See also:
https://ptolemy2.wordpress.com/2020/02/09/the-principle-of-least-action-calls-into-question-atmosphere-warming-by-co2/