Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Watts Up With That is about more than just the climate. It’s also about interesting things in the world. So if you’re looking for just climate, this isn’t the post for you. However, it’s an interesting peregrination through the world of the mathematics of illness.
We’ve been hearing a lot about “exponential growth” in relation to the cases, spread, and mortality of the Wuhan Virus. And to be sure, it is indeed a global health crisis, one we need to take very seriously.
The curious part is, “exponential growth” doesn’t actually describe the progress of a given disease. Exponential growth never stops—it just gets larger and larger, going up and up without end. But that’s not what happens with a disease.
For example, here’s what has been happening with the total number of Wuhan Virus cases in South Korea.

Figure 1. South Korean total cases of Wuhan Virus since the beginning of the epidemic. SOURCE
We see the same shape of curve regarding the total number of deaths in China.

Figure 2. Total deaths in China from the Wuhan Virus since the illness took hold. SOURCE
Now, this particular “s-shaped” curve is called a “Gompertz Curve”. It is a curious curve, in that it is not symmetrical. It goes up faster than it levels off. Here’s an example.

Figure 3. A typical Gompertz Curve, which describes the evolution of the number of total cases or the number of total deaths in an epidemic.
So I thought I’d see how well those two graphs in Figures 1 & 2 could be fit by a Gompertz Curve. First, here’s the graph of the South Korean total cases, along with the best-fit Gompertz Curve:

Figure 4. Total Wuhan Virus cases, South Korea, along with the best-fit Gompertz curve for the data.
You can see why the Gompertz Curve is used to describe epidemics—it’s a very good fit to real-world epidemiological data. And because any given Gompertz Curve ends up at some maximum value that it doesn’t exceed, it also allows us to estimate the part of the curve that hasn’t happened yet. So far, there have been some 7,362 cases in South Korea. The Gompertz Curve estimates that the final total will be on the order of some 8,100 cases or so.
Now, that’s not a hard number, of course. All kinds of things can happen to bend the curve either up or down. But it’s better than just making a blind guess.
Next, here is the same kind of look, data plus best-fit Gompertz Curve, but at the deaths in China.

Figure 5. Total Wuhan Virus deaths, China, along with the best-fit Gompertz curve for the data.
Again, with the same caveats as before, we can take an educated guess at what the total number of deaths is likely to be. By the end, the Gompertz Curve estimates about 3,500 deaths.
Finally, let’s take a look at the deaths in South Korea. It’s still early, deaths are still happening, so this will be more uncertain.

Figure 6. Total Wuhan Virus deaths, South Korea, along with the best-fit Gompertz curve for the data.
Although the uncertainty in this one is greater, it looks at present like the final total of deaths in South Korea will be on the order of one hundred, give or take.
Conclusions
On my planet at least, this is very good news. Deaths in China look like they will be on the order of 3,500 lives lost. Cases in South Korea are near to peaking. And although it’s early to do this kind of analysis on the number of deaths in South Korea, to date there have only been 60 deaths, and the best fit Gompertz Curve peaks out at a hundred deaths.
Please be clear, though, that I’m not minimizing the danger. A virus of this nature can do immense harm if we don’t stay ahead of it. What I’m saying is that China and South Korea show that we indeed can stay ahead of it.
So let me suggest that we take all precautions, wash hands, social distancing, canceling large gatherings, testing as and when required, self-quarantine, it’s very important to slow the virus down … and that we also dial way back on the hysteria and the politicization of the issue. I assure you, assigning blame to one political party or the other and buying six cases of toilet paper won’t help end the epidemic. Although I must confess, thanks to the web I finally understand the panic buying of toilet paper. I read that it’s because when one person sneezes, a hundred people soil their underpants … so don’t be one of them.
Here on my hillside, I don’t need social distancing. I’m a hermit anyhow, have been for a while now. I hate going to town, and I love my forest home. The plum trees in our entry were fooled into blossoming by the warm dry February.

But then the plum trees got surprised by the March rains. The ground underneath them looked like a local snowfall, there was not a blossom left on the limbs … we’ll see if we get any plums in the fall.
I spent the day using the weedwhacker to give a haircut to the flowers and greenery growing up through the bricks on the patio I built … perhaps I should have put down geotextile fabric, but I do like the way the plants never stop shouldering their way up through the tiny crevices. I take it as a sign of hope, that life endures no matter the obstacles.
My best to all, wash your hands, stay well in these parlous times.
w.
As Usual: I ask that when you comment you quote the exact words that you are responding to. This avoids endless misunderstandings and disagreements.
Data: All of the data is from the Worldometer site.
For Math Geeks Like Me: The Gompertz Curve is defined as
y(t) = α * exp(-β * exp(-k * t))
where
t = time alpha = upper asymptote beta = growth displacement k = growth rate
On Political Correctness: Yes, I know that the wokerati have taken up the cry that calling it the “Chinese Coronavirus” or the “Wuhan Virus” is RACIST!!!, their go-to accusation to try to discount anyone they don’t like. Consider it my small blow for freedom of speech and not bowing to political pressure. Me, I’m the least PC guy imaginable, and I was brought up in a household where racism was simply not tolerated in any form, so trying to bust me for being RACIST!! just doesn’t work. I know who I am.
And if you think that the people who are claiming that this is RACIST!!! actually believe it and it’s not just sleazy political maneuvering, consider the following two tweets, six weeks apart:

Followed by …

However, if you insist on taking that route, before you bust me for calling it the Wuhan Virus because it originated in Wuhan, please let me know your racism-free politically 100% correct alternative names for each of the following illnesses, all of which are named for their place of origination:
- Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever
- Lyme Disease
- Marburg Fever
- West Nile Virus
- Valley Fever
- Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS)
- Ebola Virus
- German Measles
- Lassa Fever
- Ross River Fever
- La Crosse Encephalitis
- Legionnaire’s Disease
- St. Louis Encephalitis
- Heartland Virus
- Bornholm Disease
- Junin Virus
- Nipah Virus
- Rift Valley Fever
- Zika Virus
- Norovirus
I mean, we don’t want to be RACIST!! regarding the people of St. Louis or the inhabitants of the Rocky Mountains, do we? …
Willis,
I have put in my own patios using 3 to 4 inch foundations of modified 2A topped with with an inch or two of rock dust swept into the spaces between the pavers. Used crushed limestone to discourage plant growth (I’m from Missouri originally, a state with a limestone Karst geology). These constructions were stable through 40” rain per annum and multiple freeze/thaw cycles. Just sayin’. Lots of work though moving tons of rock from curb to back yard.
Sounds good, Shoes, but what the heck is “modified 2A”?
Regards,
w.
Rather than just curve fitting epidemiologists use these types of models
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmental_models_in_epidemiology#The_SEIR_model
which have the advantage that their many parameters are identifiable and meaningful in the real world, rather than just arbitrary coefficients.
Greg –
Thanks for link. I found the SIR model approach to be more understandable, although it appears to me to lead to similar equations.
One thing I found interesting is a quote from the link: “This means that the end of an epidemic is caused by the decline in the number of infected individuals rather than an absolute lack of susceptible subjects.” This seems to me to mean that the concept of herd immunity ( were the decline is based on the lack of susceptible subjects) is not correct. Yet herd immunity seems to make common sense.
I find the following to be the most up-to-date source for info:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
By following this over time we should be able to judge if the rapid fall-off recorded by China is legitimate. Note its serious case numbers verses latest fatalities. They must have the best medical system in the world.
Clearly, various Governments and global businesses are banking on outbreaks being short-lived. The sledge hammer impact of their measures on economies is not sustainable, even over the medium term
Take NZ: Our economy has been driven by the froth of tourism and immigration for years. They are so proud of our steady rise in GDP while ignoring the fact that GDP/head pop has been static and productivity/labour unit has been falling for a decade. Now it will be back to the basics. Oops
Meantime, many of us are going to get some lollies in the mail which we are supposed to spend. the political and economic elite again have miss-judged the mind of the hinterland. We will save. How they will hate that
What I am looking forward to most is seeing my lovely seaside village back to once-it-was. No tourists. I will enjoy it while I can, not wearing a mask
M
Michael
I live in the UK next to the sea and think most tourism is a blight with very little money being spent by them and what there is seems to be mostly stuff being imported into the area.
We have a saying’ turnover is vanity and profit is sanity’ I doubt most sea side resorts make a profit or certainly not enough to compensate for the disruption.
tonyb
Tony
Yes. Most of our locals gain nothing from tourism. There are now 20 eat-joints in our main street less than 150 m in length. 95% of these businesses and both supermarkets are run by foreign blow-ins. They call this diversity.
Once the travel thing really kicks in and the town empties out I feel like walking into every one of these businesses saying “Isn’t wonderful, the real community!”
We will be able to drive to the city in the normal 45 minutes instead of being trapped behind a long line of cars following a camper van or some idiot that has never driven on the left side of the road before.
It’s best to suck the zinc tablets when leaving the apartment, because the virus gets in through the airways.
Zinc and selenium are antagonists. Take selenium one day, zinc the next. An excess of selenium can have side effects. Organic zinc is safe (excess excreted in faeces).
I recommend drinking sage tea as a respiratory disinfectant.
Ozone generator.
Ozone is a great disinfectant, but it will also destroy lung tissue.
https://youtu.be/U7F1cnWup9M
Coronavirus Epidemic Update 34: US Cases Surge, Chloroquine & Zinc Treatment Combo, Italy Lockdown
Finally, some good news.
A vaccine by the end of this year?
A game changer concerning reducing the time to develop and produce vaccines.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-vaccine-canadian-company-claims-to-have-found-a-cure-and-could-do-human-tests-in-weeks/news-
story/8652a2d98759d609cf8e73e07d7058fc
A Canadian company has claimed it’s found the cure (William: Not a cure, they have found a new way to rapidly develop and produce vaccines, any vaccine) for the deadly coronavirus.
Medicago, a biopharmaceutical company in Quebec City funded by the Pentagon, said that it has produced a COVID-19 vaccine just 20 days after receiving the coronavirus’ genetic sequence, using a unique technology that they soon hope to submit for FDA approval.
The company’s CEO, Bruce Clark, said his company could produce as many as 10 million doses a month.
If regulatory hurdles can be cleared, Mr Clark said on Thursday, the vaccine could become available as soon as November.
…..in producing vaccines for seasonal flu – is more reliable and easier to scale.
Medicago doesn’t work with a live virus. Instead, the team insert a genetic sequence into a soil bacteria, which is taken up by the plants, which then reportedly begin to produce the protein that can then be used as a vaccine.
If the virus begins to mutate, Mr Clark said, as is expected for COVID-19, they can just update the production using new plants.
“That’s the difference between us and egg-based methods,” he said.
“We go directly to producing the vaccine or the antibody without having to propagate the virus.”
“That’s the difference between us and egg-based methods,” he said.
“We go directly to producing the vaccine or the antibody without having to propagate the virus.”
Very interesting. Thanks, William.
Calling it the Wuhan virus is not racist, it is a political ploy by the White House to cast blame and divert attention, because their response has been so overwhelmingly inadequate.
creep
I’m assuming that was meant for me (creep)? Perhaps if you were able to explain what it was that I said that invoked your adult comment, then we would be able to debate this?
At least you recognize that the shoe fits, Simon. You assume that you know what is behind the administration’s motives but you don’t with any certainty. You also seem to ignore the fact that the media was using these and similar terms for several weeks now going back to January.
Simon, I SPECIFICALLY asked people to set aside the pissant political posturing, but nooo … your TDS took you over and you had to blame someone.
Please go peddle that line of virulence someplace else.
w.
Simon,
Your TDS is tedious. We have called it “Wu-Flu”, “Kung-Flu”, “Wuhan Flu” and others since it started. The White House had nothing to do with it. Can you please take your out-of-control hatred elsewhere?
As usual I have no argument with Willis over his math or his methodology.
But as usual I have a major objection to the actual figures he plugs into those formulae.
It’s quite clear to anyone observing this outbreak that there are no valid numbers available
due to the absence of a universally accepted testing regime.
Here in Australia two seperate high schools were shut down (for a day) when two students tested positive for the virus. (There was no subsequent outbreak.)
No-one has any idea how or where these students contracted it.
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the virus is already widely distributed through the population in a mild or non symptomatic form.
Several folks have said that the figures that I’m using are not valid.
Perhaps so, perhaps no … but as always, we have the figures that we have. And as I pointed out throughout, there are a number of sources of uncertainty, some known and some unknown.
So I’ve used the best figures, which on my planet is better than not using any figures …
w.
These “no valid numbers” clowns will actually kill people
Some tests show “false positive” results, occasionally.
REALITY CHECK:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-in-us.html
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the U.S.
Data include both confirmed and presumptive positive cases of COVID-19 reported to CDC or tested at CDC since January 21, 2020
Total cases: 1,629
Total deaths: 41
.
.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm
2019-2020 U.S. Flu Season
CDC estimates that, from October 1, 2019, through March 7, 2020, there have been:
36,000,000 – 51,000,000 flu illnesses
17,000,000 – 24,000,000 flu medical visits
370,000 – 670,000 flu hospitalizations
22,000 – 55,000 flu deaths
… and yet, in my city, I cannot find a single bottle of something that I use regularly, as a matter of good habit — 70% rubbing alcohol. It is currently non-existent in the stores in my town. It is currently non-existent online at the major big-box-store websites, in addition to a well-known industrial-supply website that sells up to 55-gallon drums of the stuff. … NOTHING … OUT … BARE SHELVES.
So, my conclusion is that of a person who did a Youtube video, offering an in-your-face, no-holds-barred bit of advice — Calm the F___ down !
“flu deaths”
How would you determine these “flu deaths”?
Are you talking about MODELED diseases?
Thanks Willis!!!! Great article:))))
There’s a recognizable similarity of the Gompertz curve with the UHI-produced discrepancy between urban and vetted small-town stations in the contiguous USA. See:
.html?sort=2&o=2
One thing that might magnify the mortality of Coronavirus in the UK is that most old folk get a flu jab each year so many who are weak have survivedyear on year but are now at risk.
Thanks, Willis for introducing me to the Gompertz Curve and for writing an article full of good sense amid all the World Wide Hysteria and panic buying of Toilet Paper!
Mods,
Why was one of my comments not posted?
Holly, I’m not a mod, but I went to look. It was in the queue of comments waiting for approval, along with 17 other comments.
You have to remember that all comments are moderated here, to keep this from turning into a snake pit … and because the site goes worldwide, we need moderators in all time zones.
Finally, all the moderators in all time zones are volunteers who (hard to believe) have lives outside of WUWT, so sometimes comments take a bit of time to get processed. Patience is a virtue.
I approved your comment, so it is now available to all.
My best to you, thanks for your comments,
w.
Both the logistic curve or the Gompertz curve are qualitatively similar: with only one point of inflection, they both lead asymptotically to a constant level. See: https://www.chebfun.org/examples/applics/Gompertz.html
It will be interesting to see which ultimately provides a better fit to the data for Covid19 and for UHI in the USA.
Thanks, 1sky1. The difference is that the logistic curve is symmetrical about the inflection point and the Gompertz curve isn’t. Epidemics generally take off faster than they slow down, so the Gompertz is a better fit.
w.
When only the early stages of evolution are known, all sorts of models may provide a reasonably good fit. The critical question is the ULTIMATE course. Since epidemiology is not my field, I went searching for how professionals model epidemics. Didn’t find any mention of Gompertz. See:
http://itech.fgcu.edu/faculty/pfeng/teaching/epidemics.pdf
A search on “Gompertz epidemics” finds 63,000 results … and the same search on Google Scholar finds 6,300 results.
w.
not a comment on the post because I can’t read it. Web site keeps telling me to download Flash Player. I don’t use Flash Player. This was a great site for information but I can’t get through to it any more.
Same here the WUWT is unusable on my computer today because of that nonsense!
You guys need to use a script blocker.
I use Firefox with the script blocker, NoScript. I never see any adds or popups when I visit WUWT. Visiting any website without a script blocker can get you in trouble if you aren’t careful.
Btw, I would not click on anything in a popup window, even the “x” that supposedly closes the window. Sometimes that “x” is just what the hacker wants you to click on.
If you get in that situation, don’t click on anything. Instead, go to your Windows Task Manager (in Windows, of course) and stop the browser process from there, which will also stop the popup window. If Firefox is stopped this way, when you restart Firefox it will ask you if you want to connect back to the webpages you had open when the process was stopped, and you can check which tabs you want restored, just don’t restore the popup window, uncheck it, and you are right back to where you were before the popup came up. But you should probably install a script blocker before coming back because if you don’t, you’ll get the popup window again.
Blocking all scripts will sometimes make a website unusable, but most script blockers give you the option of allowing certain scripts while disallowing others. In my case, I allow whatsupwiththat.cxx and wp.cxx and block all the rest.
I don’t use a phone to post so I can’t address any problems you would be having with a phone, or any fixes.
What’s the deal with stealing clicks?
Unless you are currently logged on a site where you have a permission to do something that an unlogged user can’t do, there is no impact on you. You might accidentally “steal clics” on an online ad, but that isn’t your problem.
Can someone (perhaps Willis) indicate what values of alpha, beta and k give the curve shown in Figure 3? I can’t reproduce anything like it using Excel and a few guesses for these parameters.
Interestingly, using CDC figures, the US curve has already started to bend over. However, I think this is due to sparse and incomplete data, and is not (yet) real.
Here’s the code, David.
The difficulty factor is that I plotted it against 1 to 32, and not the actual “x” values used to generate the curve. If I use 1 to 32 as the “x” values, I get for alpha, beta, and k:
Regards,
w.
bend over?
nope
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Not bent yet, that’s for sure.
w.
At least the death rate is coming down in the U.S. as the impact of the Washington nursing home cluster blends into the noise. Age demographics favor lower severity of cases and deaths.
In a few days we might be able to resolve trends regarding latitude, longitude, temperature and humidity, if such correlations are strong.
Malaysia just jumped.
beware of any spatial analysis
“The Math Of Epidemics”
I don’t know if the ‘math’ were available in the 1970 when the book “Plagues and People” was written. It’s an interesting read. One item related is about an outbreak of the ‘Black Death’ around the Mediterranean Sea. Quarantine of inbound ships in most ports – except at the eastern end of the Sea. There, the concept of life or death was, it is the” Will of Allah.”
Noticed a satellite photo earlier today purporting to be mass graves being dug in Iran. If correct, that doesn’t bode well for those people.
Please watch Medcram update #35 and get the word out. It will save lives. I don’t know how else to inform on this.
medcram is a great source. watch it every day
Willis:
My feeling is that we are playing the left’s game when we say I’m not a RACIST.
I think the better thing is to say: sure, I’m a racist. Isn’t everyone?
Because, after all, we Hegel scholars all understand that the thing is the same as its opposite. Both racists and anti-racists have an obsession with race.
But the rest of us? We Don’t Care.
Should we start Corona parties since the children are at less risk at this time? For those too young to remember there were Chicken-pox parties back in the days.
It’s probably too soon to consider that. It would be best to know what the longer term impacts of infection are, how long one remains a spreader and what is the possibility of reinfection.
A good bit of news for the U.S. is that death rate continues to fall and is under 2%, as the impact of the nursing home cluster in Washington is being averaged out.
“A good bit of news for the U.S. is that death rate continues to fall and is under 2%, as the impact of the nursing home cluster in Washington is being averaged out.”
—
Too soon. Recovery from this virus is protracted and not a one way street. Australia’s cases have been quite slow to recover meanwhile the case load went from 15 cases early on up to 218 active
cases now, with only 27 recovered since early Feb. i.e. the death percent is currently only 1.21%, but the fight to keep it that low is intense and long which means the system can be over come by a sharp spike in new cases (which we are seeing), then the mortality percent increases steadily. Indeed the current percent of deaths of known cases in Italy is 6.81% (7.17% yesterday). The ratio of deaths to critical cases indicates 94.9% of the critical cases are dying. i.e. recovery is slow because these people are really seriously undermined and their death is 95% more likely than their survival.
Thus the speed with which people recover will be critical as to how many die from any spike in cases. So it’s relatively easy to keep the initial percent mortality low during the first month, but progressively harder as the case numbers increase during the second month.
Percent over WHAT?
total cases
How do you know the number of cases?
It could be. My major assumptions are that we do a reasonable job of managing the crisis and our young demographic shows up more in the data. I also think that seasonality could be helpful, though the spread is probably moving too fast.
Italy has been forced into triage mode and hopefully we avoid that. It’s been said that the U.S. rate of hospital beds is lower than average for Western countries, but I’ve heard that our rate of ICU beds is actually quite high.
The whole point of NOT doing the measles vaccine is to let almost all children catch it and get lifelong immunity. Measles is almost always benign in healthy children in developed countries with proper healthcare. There was real herd immunity in adults (not the phony herd immunity sold by vaccine makers and their cronies, like the inept CDC).
[A few people with bad health were at risk but in proper medicine you don’t give dangerous drugs (like vaccines, or Tamiflu) to healthy people to protect people with bad health.]
The introduction of mass measles vaccination was catastrophic from that POV: people don’t get measles when they are young and don’t have good immunity either.
How do you get out of that measles vaccination trap?
niceguy March 14, 2020 at 10:03 pm
First, there’s no such thing as “phony herd immunity”. Either an overwhelming majority of the population are immune, or they’re not.
Next, with measles about 1 in 4 will be hospitalized and 1-2% will die. So no, it’s not “almost always benign”.
Next, rubella (German measles) causes the following problems in pregnancy:
Deafness
Cataracts
Heart defects
Intellectual disabilities
Liver and spleen damage
Low birth weight
Skin rash at birth
Glaucoma
Brain damage
Thyroid and other hormone problems
Inflammation of the lungs
“Benign”, my okole …
Next, you appear to be laboring under the misconception that vaccines don’t give “good immunity” … if that were true, then why doesn’t anyone get polio or smallpox these days?
I doubt that you are old enough to recall the fear that came around every summer among mothers who were petrified that their kids would get polio. I worked for a few months as a night attendant to a man in an iron lung from polio … I can assure you, he would have paid any amount of money for the very vaccine that you foolishly denigrate …
Finally, I did love your quote about how we should just screw the people who are in poor health … what was it? Oh, yeah, here it is …
Yeah, no need to protect people with bad health, they’re obviously losers.
Finally, “dangerous drugs like vaccines”?? Have you no sense of proportion? Yes, the vaccine that ended polio has occasional adverse effects … but to the man in the iron lung, I can assure you he’d have kicked you in the differential for your stupidity.
But then he couldn’t, could he, he was paralyzed from the neck down because he didn’t have the vaccine when he was young.
w.
“for your stupidity”
@moderator
Please intervene.
niceguy, I’m telling you how he would have felt. He was among the last group of people to get polio before the vaccine was invented. How do you think he felt about that?
And yes, he would have known that you are being abysmally cruel, and stupid as well, to oppose vaccination. It could have saved him, and here you are claiming that it’s some kind of evil thing. Takes a special kind of person to do that.
w.
I’m asking you to provide the beginning of an hint of a cogent argument for vaccination. So far you have exhibited massive provax derangement syndrome.
Do you have any evidence the polio vaccine prevented more cases of “polio” whatever it is, than it caused, in the US? Elsewhere?
You did not even try to explain what “polio” is. How can you possibly know anyone had “polio”?
Also you mix unrelated diseases. You claim with zero evidence that vaccines don’t cause autism.
Do you deny the explosion of MS, other neurological disorders and immunological disorders in France following mass hep B vaccination, which constitutes the most significant health crisis of the last 50 years?
Do you know of any medical fact most strongly established and undeniable, that doesn’t involve the effects of radiations, than the hep B vaccine/MS link?
niceguy
You asked, “Do you have any evidence the polio vaccine prevented more cases of “polio” whatever it is, than it caused, in the US?”
For starters, polio is no longer the scourge it was when I was a child. I suspect that most of the commenters on this blog remember being given a sugar cube as a child. Neither I or my classmates developed polio as a result of taking the vaccine. I suppose one could speculate that the virus just spontaneously destroyed itself and the vaccine had nothing to do with it. However, I don’t think that any reasonable person would put much stock in that hypothesis. There is also the track record of the eradication of smallpox — WORLDWIDE — as a result of vaccination. I think that you are trying to nail Jello to a tree with your objections.
Niceguy,
Here is how you can win your next Nobel Prize for knowing something no one else knows, namely that vaccines do nothing.
Go get bitten by a rabid animal, and refuse to get vaccinated afterwards. Since almost no one in a developed country has died of rabies for many decades, you should have no disease, thus proving that all those people are wasting money and taking something that is worthless and dangerous.
The do the same with some tetanus bacteria.
Amaze the world when you do not get lockjaw despite never getting a booster shot.
You can go right down the list of diseases that everyone is deluded into believing they do not get because of vaccines.
Have your spleen removed, and do not get a pneumonvax shot, then go hang out with people with pneumococcal pneumonia. Give them some kisses, have them cough in your face.
Prove that the vaccine is worthless, and people do not need a spleen since acquired immunity is not a thing.
“namely that vaccines do nothing”
OK NPC.
You have just admitted that you had zero idea what was being discussed and how a MEDICAL DRUG is evaluated.
I have humiliated you.
Go away.
“the vaccine had nothing to do with”
Please explain your ridiculous theory that the vaccine that spread polio had anything to do with polio disappearing, shill.
“Next, rubella (German measles) causes the following problems in pregnancy:”
And that’s a motive to vaccinate children, who can then contaminate pregnant women?
Are you that cruel?
“I doubt that you are old enough to recall the fear that came around every summer among mothers who were petrified that their kids would get polio. I worked for a few months as a night attendant to a man in an iron lung from polio … I can assure you, he would have paid any amount of money for the very vaccine that you foolishly denigrate”
Yes, those old iron lungs were scary looking devices, especially when a person might have to spend a long time in one. That’s what scared me about polio, seeing that iron lung with someone’s head sticking out one end. Give me a vaccine anytime over something like that!
Do you deny the explosion of polio caused by mass polio vaccination in India?
Tom, the iron lung was scary enough looking during the day, head sticking out one end, portholes down the sides.
But at night, they kept a light on inside the lung to keep him warm. And with the light shining out through the portholes, it was decidedly sinister.
w.
niceguy March 16, 2020 at 8:56 am
Yes. I absolutely deny it. Here’s the real story, not what you’ve been fed by some dumb anti-vaxx site.
SOURCE
After the incidence of wild polio virus had been decreased by 99%, and two of the three strains totally eliminated, there were a few cases of vaccine-induced polio from the oral vaccine. Not an “explosion”. Overall, there was a huge DECREASE in polio, even when you include the vaccine-induced strain.
And since the people fighting polio had a brain, they didn’t say “polio vaccine doesn’t work”. They’d just seen it cut the number of cases by 99%, duh. Instead, they said not to use the oral vaccine on any remaining cases once wild transmission had been interrupted.
I worked with some of those folks in Africa on the polio eradication campaign. I’ve seen kids and adults in Africa with polio back in the day. You think polio is a bad outcome in the US? Try polio in some dirt-poor African village … you don’t have a clue what you are babbling about.
As to your claimed “explosion in India” of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP), from the same source:
For every 143,000 people PROTECTED against the disease, there was ONE case of VAPP … and you call that an “explosion”? Get real.
What I don’t deny is that you are immune to logic, so you’ll probably shine on these actual facts.
w.
Polio is being spread in Africa by vaccine.
You are an absolute MORON who believes an argument about rubella is valid for measles. You know NOTHING.
You are a D E N I E R of the VICTIMS of vaccines and a disgusting person.
I AM DONE WITH YOU.
“Next, with measles about 1 in 4 will be hospitalized and 1-2% will die.”
Nope. You just made that up. That’s crazy talk.
“it’s not “almost always benign”.”
Why was it considered that way, for children, before the time of Big Pharma?
“Next, rubella (German measles) causes the following problems in pregnancy:”
Rubella has the exact same issues. It’s mostly a very mild disease. Why vaccinate all children?
Also, these vaccines have been linked with “autism” (“spectrum”). Esp. regressive autism.
“if that were true, then why doesn’t anyone get polio or smallpox these days?”
Many people in Africa get polio because of polio vaccination. And there is an explosion in India. It’s horrific. Due to hyper vaccination.
What’s the point of a polio vaccine? Why vaccinate people with the vaccine in the US or in Europe?
“who were petrified that their kids would get polio”
Relevance?
How do you know they got polio?
You don’t. You can’t say what they got.
I stop here, you whole post is pure nonsense.
Pass. I can’t deal with this level of ignorance, prejudice, and denial. I’ll just put this graph up to demonstrate how far out of touch with reality you are.
Two of the three strains of polio have been eliminated entirely anywhere in the world, the third causes a few cases per year globally, not in the US but globally, the vaccine itself causes a few cases globally, and you think we shouldn’t use polio vaccine … idiocy.
Yes, there are problems with vaccines. No, they don’t cause autism. And most important, the benefits far outweigh the problems. And if you’d ever spent time with someone paralyzed from the neck down by polio, you’d understand that.
I’m done here. If they come up with a vaccine for the Wuhan virus, the world will celebrate, Italians will be overjoyed, the economy will roar back … and you’ll be in your corner whining and sulking and still claiming that vaccines are unmitigated evil.
Pass.
w.
What about the explosion of polio in India following mass vaccination, shill?
How do you know the explosion of autism has nothing to do with vaccines?
Do you promote the work of FBI MOST WANTED felons?
“Two of the three strains of polio have been eliminated entirely anywhere in the world,”
So you admit the vaccine is useless?
Pass. Too much lunatic idiocy for me. Go sell your bovine excrement elsewhere.
w.
Willis, this person is mentally ill, or a troll, or a bot.
It is impossible for anyone to be this stupid.
He wants to know how anyone could possibly have had polio, since no one knows what polio is, but also says polio increased after vaccinations.
Finally, he has never posted anything, not one shred of documentation, to back up his assertions.
Everyone besides him is a shill.
Does not add up.
Also, his speech patterns are very inconsistent.
I would be interested to know where this person is commenting from.
He seems to mention France a lot.
But some of his speech patterns and idiom discrepancies indicate eastern Europe.
“Willis, this person is mentally ill, or a troll, or a bot”
Show evidence you invented a medical drug, NPC.
“But some of his speech patterns and idiom discrepancies indicate eastern Europe.”
You sound nice.
Which idiom, NPC?
Which country?
Sorry that Mull heer the Special Whatever is gone; you should have provided your demented insight. You would fit nicely in his gestapist team.
Either that, or submit your ideas to Alex Jones. Although he isn’t as crazy as you…
My parents were ‘petrified’ that we would get polio, as were their contemporaries, every summer outbreaks of polio were dreaded. My father had a paralyzed leg as a result of polio. In the fifties when the polio vaccine was introduced all the kids in my home town lined up to get vaccinated, and guess what, the routine outbreaks disappeared!
Regarding polio in India, until the early 1990s polio was hyper endemic there, up to 1000 children paralyzed daily, following major vaccination efforts the last case was recorded in 2011.
Following mass vaccination polio is exploding in India.
niceguy March 16, 2020 at 11:45 am
Following mass vaccination polio is exploding in India.
Really, from zero cases in 2018 and 2019.
Used to have 70% of the world’s cases!
niceguy March 15, 2020 at 11:43 am
“Next, with measles about 1 in 4 will be hospitalized and 1-2% will die.”
Nope. You just made that up. That’s crazy talk.
“it’s not “almost always benign”.”
Why was it considered that way, for children, before the time of Big Pharma?
It wasn’t you troll. Since the introduction of the Measles vaccine in the UK it’s estimated that 20 million cases and 4500 deaths have been averted. The situation is far worse in poor countries. The number of measles cases in the UK has increased recently due to people refusing the vaccine, ~30% of those infected are admitted to hospital. About 1 in 15 will suffer complications:
ear infection (otitis media) in about 8% of measles cases (about 1 in 12 people)
pneumonia in up to 6% of measles cases (up to 1 in 16 people)
diarrhoea in about 8% of measles cases (about 1 in 12 people)
encephalitis (inflammation of the brain): 1 case for every 1000-2000 cases of measles. Encephalitis can lead to brain damage.
Complications cause about one death in 5000 in the UK, in poor countries it’s about 1 in 100.
I read an interesting article (sorry no link) about childhood reaction to new infections that looked at chickenpox and Covid-19.
Children are good at handling novel diseases, because for them every disease is novel. Adults are less good at handling novel diseases, because they rely mainly on learned immunity. Hence children cope with Covid-19 better than adults.
Therefore it makes sense for children to have diseases like Chickenpox before they become adults.
Perhaps in future, the same will be true for this virus and its descendents.
Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Understanding the Virus with Math
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/4876
Dear Willis
I would be very interested to know what you think of the analysis at this site: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca . Although the author is not an expert, it was recommended to my by a professor of public health. Also, as readers of this site will appreciate, you don’t have to be an expert in a particular field to be able to carry out some statistical analysis of the data and draw conclusions!
Obviously exponential growth of an epidemic cannot continue indefinitely in a finite population. But I wonder how long this epidemic might be able to grow at exponential rates and I must confess I am concerned about the ability of the medical system to cope, given the experience in Wuhan and Italy where, it seems, early opportunities to slow its spread were not taken.
Best wishes!
I think he’s hyperventilating and shouting “EXPONENTIAL GROWTH” far too much for my liking. As I pointed out in the head post, epidemics don’t follow exponential growth.
However, his recommendation is good—stay home.
We’re doing that. I suppose it’s OK to scare people to get them to do that. But we’re doing it, so no need for the scare tactics.
Finally, he says all this will happen in “days. Maybe a week or two”. he wrote it 5 days ago, the virus has been on the loose for far more time than that in a number of countries, and in most, we haven’t seen any of those horrible outcomes … so if nothing else, his time frame predictions are off.
Thanks for an interesting link,
w.
Thank you Willis – much appreciated! Here’s an opposite view although regrettably it doesn’t disclose the calculations behind it: https://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/Israeli-nobel-laureate-Coronavirus-spread-is-slowing-621145
Cheers!
” … And although it’s early to do this kind of analysis on the number of deaths in South Korea, to date there have only been 60 deaths, and the best fit Gompertz Curve peaks out at a hundred deaths. …”
—
Unlikely to follow the tail past an initial ‘peak’ though as contagiousness and a- symptomatic spread means it will likely continue to take lives at a lower rate for years to come, so total deaths can not be predicted. Good to see we understand how to beat such fast unseen spreader though.
Willis-
Thanks for a great post! Your posts always make me think. And this one made me think long and hard. If fact I went away for several hours a couple times, but couldn’t shake thinking about the ramifications of the math.
For instance, the Wikipedia entry on the Gompertz function shows that is possible to change the growth rate and the growth rate displacement and not change the asymptote. Under what conditions could that happen?
One has to wonder, then, how much effect canceling gatherings to slow the rate or displacement, actually has. Yes, it will lessen the daily impact on heath facilities, but what other effects will it have? Will it lower the number of people infected? If the number of people infected doesn’t change and thus the number of deaths doesn’t change, might the economic impact be less, if the epidemic were allowed to proceed at a faster pace?
One can only hope that the CDC has the mathematicians and economists who have been through past epidemics, and understand the models and the variables, and can advise the politicians on the best course of action from both a public health and economic viewpoint.
Engineer, thanks for your kind words. The reason for social distancing and all the rest is NOT to decrease the total cases or the total mortality.
It is to slow down the spread, and thus lower the peak number of new cases per day, week, or month. The danger is what happened in Italy, where the number of cases overwhelmed the ability of the medical systems to handle it. If the exact same number of cases had happened over a month or two instead of a week or two, that wouldn’t have been the case.
Regards,
w.
For those interested here are the relevant death rates. I’m sure most folks have seen this by now.
Here’s the curious thing about that graph.
It’s NOT, as you might expect, the graph of the mortality due to the Wuhan Virus.
It’s the graph of the US mortality from all causes. Everything. Childhood diseases. Car crashes. Midlife crises. Drug overdoses. Everything.
Turns out it’s not just the Wuhan Virus that’s hard on us geezers.
It’s life itself …
w.
PS—Do you know what is the leading cause of death among old men?
…
…
…
… thinking we’re young men …
It’s kind of like did you ever notice that when you’re trying to find something that you misplaced, it’s usually in the the last place you look?
It was in the place I looked at first, but not carefully enough.
I bet that death resulting from an erection lasting over 4 hours declines with age after puberty.
Probably the frequency of death resulting from skydiving, etc. peaks in the 20’s-30’s. Illegal drug overdoses probably takes out more youngsters.